Harry's Place

I have to say, I originally thought (hoped?) that the “Respect will only help the BNP” line was simply scaremongering. Looks like I was wrong. Sorry for doubting you, Harry.

Great. It looks like Respect are doing far more damage than anybody expected.

The only agreement here is between you and the BNP in claiming this was a communalist vote, but you have a common interest in saying it was.

When the fascists of the BNP agree with your analysis it is time to do some serious thinking.

The fascists of the BNP are hardly going to agree with my anti-fascist black and white unite, class analysis are they?

Either you have missed the point entirely or you don’t want to face up to the fact that communalism breeds communalism.

Harry finally you you are beginning to admit what some of us have been saying for a while now; that you have more in common with fascists than genuine leftists. If any proof is needed then surely this is it?
Inviting Nick to dinner anytime soon??

Talk about missing the point!

What is helping the BNP is Labour allowing the Tories to set the agenda on race and asylum seekers.

It’s the asylum seekers issue plus Labour’s neglect of working class districts that is fueling the BNP. RESPECT (and I repeat I am not part of that organisation) have got nothing to with it.

Anyway, since when did a self decclared leftie like Harry take his lead from the fascists?

I wouldn’t take too much notice of the ramblings of the BNP and their ilk. In the 1930’s they called it the “Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy”. New name, same old game.

Mike, save it for the disillusioned working-class voters who are liable to be drawn to the BNP. Or do you think the BNP won’t be exploiting Respect’s close identification with the Bengali community during the next round of elections? In fact, when the council elections come round, I’ll bet a tenner that the BNP will be going around Bethnal Green and Bow canvassing white residents by saying, “Look, the Bengalis are all joining up with Respect. You need to be getting behind the BNP to counter them.” It’s vile, and it’s poisonous, but it’s what they’re going to be saying.

Oh please. Spare me the bullshit Dave.

The point is how to defeat white communalism of the BNP. Playing into their hands is not the way to do it.

Even you can realise that surely?

Zin,

You are avoiding the subject.

If you have nothing useful to say on the matter then it is an option to keep quiet.

I was not trying to smear Galloway or suggest that Respect’s politics were racist in the way the BNP’s are

However I believe Galloway has made statements about anglo saxons in the past which sounded akin to racism to me.

Didn’t he help fund anti anglo saxon work shops in Iraq during Saddam’s time?

There always seems to an underlying racial angle to his criticisms of the west.

Phil

That’s what the BNP already say about Labour councils in areas with a strong ethnic minority presence.

Well, I’m afraid if you can’t see the problem with the reasons why the BNP welcome Respect’s success then you are lost causes.

Has your excitement at Galloway’s success blinded you so much?

And if anyone wants to question my anti-fascist commitment then I’ll be happy to meet you in person to discuss it.

And if anyone wants to question my anti-fascist commitment then I’ll be happy to meet you in person to discuss it.

Gulp. ;-)

Harry you have clearly lost the plot. You are now reduced to quoting (and linking to for goodness sake) the BNP to back up your increasingly hysterical accusations that Respect is some kind of fascist party.

I know you are still smarting from Bethnal Green but for goodness sake get a hold of yourself and take a moment to think about why you and Nick Griffin are singing from the same song-sheet re Respect.

That’s what the BNP already say about Labour councils in areas with a strong ethnic minority presence.

Maybe, but this time people are going to believe them. Respect have been way OTT when it comes to identifying with the Muslim vote, and there *is* going to be a backlash that the BNP will benefit from.

Respect are turning into the best recruiting poster the BNP ever had, and the BNP knows it.

That’s what the BNP already say about Labour councils in areas with a strong ethnic minority presence.

Maybe, but this time people are going to believe them. Respect have been way OTT when it comes to identifying with the Muslim vote, and there *is* going to be a backlash that the BNP will benefit from.

Respect are turning into the best recruiting poster the BNP ever had, and the BNP knows it.

Sonic, none of us suspected the BNP would quite like the idea of each ethnic group having their own political party.

Nobody predicted that!

yea Mike, Muslim voting for a white Scottish Catholic, communalism at it’s worst.

So you have all finally reached the logical conclusion of the past few week’s nonsense, approvingly quoting the BNP.

This is very worrying.

It is surely only a matter of time before we have local election battles between Respect and the BNP.

Politics in some areas would then become based entirely around race.

Who is that good for?

Spinechilling and true.

Communalist politics are nasty.

I refer you to the slogan on your masthead, Harry. Please leave the high moral tone to Rev. Brownie

The left has always picked up a disproportionate number of ethnic votes when ethnic minority communities are under threat. Same in the 1930’s with the British Communist Party. Same in the rest of Europe. Same in the US. And the same allegations were levelled.

I’ve yet to see some hard evidence (i.e. something a bit more persuasive than links to the BNP) that RESPECT is a communalist party. From what I know, they stood candidates from a variety of ethnic groups and religions, and generally recieved a repectable vote. Clearly they were always going to do better in areas with a high Muslim population because of the war.

Yet if you take a look at the vote in Bethnal Green, what you see is that the two candidates who recieved the most votes were respectively a white Scottish Catholic and a black Jew. The two Muslim Bengali candidates from the LibDems and Conservatives, recieved much smaller votes. All of which suggests that people voted on the issues. That is not to say that the Bengali community does not have its own specific dynamic. Clearly it does, but what is unusual in that?

I think the larger issue here is the high level of socio-economic deprivation in ethnic minoritiy areas. Address that issue, and you begin to reach the core of the problem.

I know you are still smarting from Bethnal Green but for goodness sake get a hold of yourself and take a moment to think about why you and Nick Griffin are singing from the same song-sheet re Respect.

Sonic,

The point is that the BNP and Respect are singing the same hymns to different congregations. Harry is taking the rational approach to this, while the SWP/MAB/Respect party is adding to the problem.

Yep, Respect and the BNP are singing from the name hymn sheet.

I can’t say I’m surprised; they’re both about diving us up and setting neighbour against neighbour.

From melaniephillips.com:

‘If a political party arose that campaigned in Golders Green solely on the basis of appealing to Jewish religiosity, if a Sikh political party targeted Southall on the basis of playing to the basest fears of Sikhs, or a Hindu political party did the same in Leicester, we would call this for what it is: narrow minded, intrinsically intolerant, chauvinist, exclusivist and demagogic, ultimately detrimental to the fabric of the settlement of our society. But in the case of Respect, tied up in the leftist projection of victim hood, the implications and dangers of this communalism have not been noted fully, indeed, amongst many of the Guardian reading class, they have been applauded and encouraged.

Sonic, in what possible, conceivable sense could Harry be said to be “approvingly” quoting that particularly passage. I think you’ll find he’s quoting them with abject horror.

yea Mike, Muslim voting for a white Scottish Catholic, communalism at it’s worst.

A white Scottish Catholic who continually describes himself as “a fighter for Muslims”, begins political meetings with “Asalaam Aleikum”, courts Muslim religious leaders at every opportunity, actually flew to Bangladesh so as to get his photo printed in Bengali newspapers, constantly emphasises his religious faith, his dislike of abortion etc etc etc……

Just another Day on Harry’s place, lets link to the BNP to prove our increasingly nutty position and while we are about it why not set up a thread calling for an attack on another arab country.

Just another Day on Harry’s place, let’s watch sonic take increasingly absurd and hysterical positions.

Nope, he’s not going to take the information in.

He’s gonna stick with the transparent 12 year old chat room techniques.

It’s not worth bothering with Sonic, people.

So saying that using the BNP to back up your line is wrong is a “hysterical position” phil.

Ah well each to their own.

What’s interesting to me about this quote from the BNP is that they are now talking more openly about ‘Asian Muslims’. The key word is Asian, not Muslim – that is their racist agenda, which until recently hid behind criticism of Islam. Criticism of Islam, in my view, no matter how strongly worded is perfectly legitimate, in fact it is common sense for any liberal to criticise the illiberal. However, this crap about ‘Asian’ muslims stinks.

The BNP are also talking more openly about ‘whites’, showing that despite their recent attempts to rebrand themselves, even courting the Hindu vote, they are the same evil racist shits.

Respect and the BNP are natural bedfellows. Respect has played into the hands of the BNP and they’re lovin’ it.

Just ignore Sonic people, unlike Zin he is not worth spending time on.

Seriously, no one should bother with Sonic. He often lies like this in some grossly obvious way.

When he can’t think of any counter argument he gets pleasure out of doing a wind up instead.

Sorry, Sonic, the truth in Harry’s post won’t go away.

So saying that using the BNP to back up your line is wrong is a “hysterical position” phil.

What Mike said.

But anyway, just to elaborate, Harry’s point is not that he agrees with the BNP, but that the BNP are about to exploit Respect’s success.

In fact, I’d be prepared to lay a wager that at the next round of elections the East End will see a marked increase in votes for the BNP, unless of course the sneering of Zin and sonic on Harry’s Place is going to stop people voting for the BNP.

2 bunches of grapes please.

Sour as you like.

Harry, quoting from the BNP is not a good look, you know it and I know it.

If I was you I’d cut your losses and delete this post now, unless you want a) to be stuck with this round you neck and b) you link to the real fascists starts bring you lots of new chums via their site.

Telling people to ignore the person pointing out the problem will not make it go away.

“But anyway, just to elaborate, Harry’s point is not that he agrees with the BNP”

Harry place line =Respect are communalist, want proof? well the BNP say so as well.

All the ad hominem attacks on me just show what shaky ground you guys are on, and how well you know it.

Sonic – Harry’s not quoting the BNP because he endorses their views. He’s quoting them to prove that Respect are dangerous because they give comfort to the BNP, whether they want to or not.

Not one person (that I’ve seen) on this site supports the BNP.

OP, it’s obvious what he is doing, and it is intersting that when Harry’s anti-fascist crediblity is challenged we get

“And if anyone wants to question my anti-fascist commitment then I’ll be happy to meet you in person to discuss it.”

But interestingly he is quite happy to tar all his opponents as facsists, and use the real fascists website to back him up.

Shame on you.

If the BNP says it’s true then its true.

OK.

Erm, no.

Harry was illustrating a point, to which evidence was required.

If this was Searchlight then a quote would do. As it stands, evidence for his assertion was provided, simple as that.

But what does Benjamin think? That’s what we’re all dying to know.

Sonic:

‘Shame on you.’ On who? Me, Harry? Or is it just the Harry’s Place refrain, said by those who know it all to lesser mortals?!

Considering the bile directed at the AUT lecturers for linking to some right wing website on thier site it seems a little ironic that you should now be approvingly quoting the BNP.

Actually considering your calls to bomb yet more darkies and the fact that you can’t see that huge numbers of RESPECT supporters are white or many other colours, the irony is a little worn.

Some anti-fascist. You creep. Ever hear of “No platform for fascists”, you’re not just giving them a platform, you’re giving them credibility.

I hope you die soon.

Over the top Sim.

I meant that too. Giving succour to fascists is beneath contept. Repeating their political anaylisis, IN AN APPROVING TONE TO BOOT, is utterly disgusting. I hope whatever branch of UAF or antifa you’re in drum you out toute suite.

Boo hoo.

A supposedly card carrying anti-fascist quoting the BNP approvingly to smear an anti-racsist.

That’s disgusting.

This is an important post.

There is no point in debating with people who will excuse violence and intimidation (simply becasue it is a pet group of their own that is responsible) and who will deliberately misconstrue a quotation from fascists who are in fact crowing at the success of their mirror opposite.

I should say at this point of course that Galloway himself has said that he will be standing down next time, because the people of BGB deserve an MP “of their own origin”. What can he mean? I think that kind of comment is deeply exclusive and can be nothing other than upsetting to a large bulk of his constituents who don’t apparently have political legitimacy in his bright new Bethnal Green. It would raise my hackles if I lived there. Even if it’s unconscious, it shows exactly what his communalist thought processes are.

You people are really getting pretty desperate now. The illogic of your posts shines through. None of the defenders of Respect/SWP have distinguished themselves in anything other than sophistry, relativism and “lesser-evilism”. None of it is convincing to a socialist, I’m afraid.

This post shows the very unfortunate dynamic that we’re dealing with here. Again, I’d urge all right-thinking people to spend some time in Tower Hamlets or Newham in the run up to next year’s borough elections for Labour. We need to stop this cancer from spreading.

I was wondering what had happened to the 1267 votes that the BNP picked up in Bethnal Green in 1997.

Remind me, how big was Galloway’s majority again?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/hoc/constituency/0,9338,-705,00.html

Whoops not 1997 – 2001

Harry – your point is well made, whatever the distractors say.

You are concerned about politics being turned into a contest between communities – you are AGAINST this. The BNP are also concerned – they are FOR this outcome. They welcome Respect to the scene. QED.

This is nothing to do with “class war”, this is “race war”.

Can you send some Labour canvassers up here please?

I have a New Labour MP that will undoubtedly lose with your help!

Pretty please with sugar on.

How many asain supporters to the BNP have?

How many white supporters do RESPECT have?

The answers are not many (none I hope unless they’re perverts), and many thousands respectivley.

I’ve never supported a particular party in my life but you guys are sure pushing me towards RESPECT.

Sim I’m afraid you are quite simply a disgrace. I am quite shocked by the vehemence and irrationality of your comments. They are totally our of order. They should be deleted.

Harry is *not* quoting approvingly, you cretinous little halfwit. He is stating, using evidence, that fascists regard Respect’s success as productive for them. That means the rest of us should see it as counterproductive. You may disagree. In which case put forward a rational argument, not a verbal spasm. The idea that Harry is giving comfort to fascists is just plain wrong.

You have sunk very low sim. Lower than most here. You are in the gutter, and you are surrounded by the foul-smelling efluent of your argumentative ejaculate – go pick yourself up and have a fucking shower. You stink.

The BNP is full of crap. They also accuse Labour of being racist. From their website:
“Recent comments by Oldham and Keighley Labour MPs Phil Woolas and Ann Cryer on the problem of anti-white violence, and anti-asylum comments from the Prime Minister and Home Secretary, show very clearly that New Labour is working very hard to steal the BNP’s best-known clothes.”
As for Harry’s comment of “The fascists of the BNP are hardly going to agree with my anti-fascist black and white unite, class analysis are they?”. Well, I’m sure they wouldn’t but I’d like to see that analysis and how it ties in with his support for Blair as leader of Labour. Blair’s latest is to appoint Adonis, Shaun Woodward and another businessman as ministers.

Or even “asian” supporters as opposed to asain.

So the BNP has welcomed the victory of Respect and it’s “ethno-specific politics.”

Meanwhile the BNP does not and has never as far as I know mentioned Harry’s place, which it no doubt sees as part of the old-style multicultural consensus.

Meanwhile instead of explaining how and why they have become the new poster boys for fascism, the Galloway supporters on here instead complain that Harry has been pointing out the logical end of their style of politics for months and attempt to drown the messenger in an Ostrich-like fit of self-righteous tantrums.

We live in strange times. We should demand that those who have given real succor to the fascists (rather than just linking to what they are saying.) Explain themselves.

NOW!

Ben, the BNP and yourself are using exactly the same argument that respect is a racist party.

I hope you have fun with your new ideological soul mates.

Oh and Ben when you write “In which case put forward a rational argument”

It is probably not best to follow that up with

“You are in the gutter, and you are surrounded by the foul-smelling efluent of your argumentative ejaculate – go pick yourself up and have a fucking shower. You stink”

Unless ben,that is as close to rational argument as you can get.

‘When the fascists of the BNP welcome your political strategy and even your success, it is time to do some serious thinking.’

When Harry’s Place enlist BNP propaganda in their obsessive attempt to discredit Respect, its a sign that serious thinking has long since been discarded.

Absolutely contemptible.

If you wish to defend someone who has expressed a wish for the early death of someone then be my guest sonic.

“the new poster boys for fascism”

Yes we can all see the approval they have for us.

The BNP and Harrys place come up with the same analysis, the BNP even use a phrase “Soviet/ Islamic Front Group ‘ Respect ‘ which is run by an Islamic/Socialist Workers Party” which could have come from Harry himself.

And this part (which Harry misses out)

“We in the BNP wonder how the few remaining elderly white people left in George Galloway’s new constituency will feel now that the area has become an autonomous Muslim/Soviet republic in the midst of London”

Could have been a post here, and no doubt you would all have been leaping on it telling Harry “great post mate” or “my thoughts exactly”

It would be funny, if it was not so sad, to see a bunch of “anti-fascists” not only echo the BNP’s line, but use it as proof of their own position.

As I said before, shame on you all.

Ben read my comments to sim and stop trying to smear me.

Yes we can all see the approval they have for us.

Indeed we can, it is set out in cold, hard, fascist typography:

The future for British politics is the growth in support and power of the ethno-specific political parties like the BNP, the Peoples’ Justice Party and Respect.

How much more do you need?

yes Anti-Nazi you keep quoting the BNP site as your new source of information, perhaps you should bookmark it just so you can keep up to date with the lastest political analysis from your favourite party.

BTW it might be worth changing your user name as you seem to put rather to much faith in Nick Griffin to be called an anti-nazi.

How about:

The victory of George Galloway and his Soviet/ Islamic Front Group ‘ Respect ‘ which is run by an Islamic/Socialist Workers Party alliance is a welcome victory.

Getting the point yet?

The point that you think the BNP are a great source for news and views, yes we are.

Surely the point is that Sonic(unlike yourself)I put no faith in the communalist backward politics of either Griffin or Galloway?

Now how about you tell us how you can support a party which Nick Griffin seems to have so much faith in? Or is that too much for you?

I don’t need to try to smear you sonic. But yes you are quite right – you did say he was “over the top”. Apologies.

All the people who support the editorial line of this blog are seeking is an east end where all cultures and ethnicities can live together in a tolerant and repectful environment. ‘Nuff said.

“the communalist backward politics”

So Griffin calls Respect communalist and you agree, glad you are getting on so well

“an east end where all cultures and ethnicities can live together in a tolerant and repectful environment”

Agreed Ben.

No Griffin called Respect “ethno-specific” (and then compared them with his own party.

A left analysis would call them “communalist”

By the way Sonic, thanks for showing my 14 year old how supposed “socialists” got mixed up in the Hitler/Stalin pact. It is helping his history project no end.

Do you mind if he uses your words in class in order to show how someone can twist their logic until they are on the same plane as nazi’s?

“Do you mind if he uses your words in class in order to show how someone can twist their logic until they are on the same plane as nazi’s?”

Why not just print out your posts to show him how blind sectarianism makes good socialists start using BNP quotes aprovingly to attack other socialists.

Nick Griffin must be laughing his head off.

The point that you think the BNP are a great source for news and views

So are we just supposed to ignore the fact that the BNP is multiple-orgasming over Respect then?

How long for? Until Sonic and the other vegetables get told the new party line?

It seems that many pro-Respect posters here have trouble in understanding basic English. Harry warned that the communalism of Respect’s vote would result in this kind of reaction from the BNP and he’s been proved right. It’s obvious to anyone with half-a-brain (thus ruling out the Respect crowd I guess) that Harry is not supporting the BNP , merely pointing out that once we’ve started down the slippery of voting on communalist lines everyone can join in.

Why not just print out your posts to show him how blind sectarianism makes good socialists start using BNP quotes aprovingly to attack other socialists.

Exactly how am I using the BNP’s quotes “approvingly”?

The point is that I am against both the BNP’s version of monocultural identity politics and also that put forward by respect.

The situation is, if Oswald Mosley slaps you on the back its no good turning to those who told you that you were getting to friendly with him and complaining that they didn’t try to stop you.

Raw nerves have been touched. Respect and the BNP are two sides of the same coin. Hence the shrill hysteria. This is in line with communalist and ethnically/religious communalist politics. The BNP are rubbing their hands with glee. Thats why people are wishing others were dead. Galloway politics in full effect.

“Exactly how am I using the BNP’s quotes “approvingly”

By not saying, look at these stupid fascists trying to distort a win for the left into some sort of victory for them. What a bunch of losers.

Logan agrees with the BNP’s analysis, what a shock.

“Respect and the BNP are two sides of the same coin”

What a disgustin smear, white and black people who are against the war unite to vote out a pro-war cheerleader and that makes them the same as the BNP?

this is gutter politics at its worst.

Sorry Sonic but I had trouble believing that Respect were a left-wing party even before they got the support of Nick Griffin.

To think they are in any way “left” after this would need the absolute suicidal ignorance of a lemming.

You and your few respect mates are on your own.

Actually, Respect’s communalist campaign in Bethnal Green was gutter politics at its worse. Its not a smear, it is an accurate depiction.

So are you guys arguing that the thousands that voted for respect are nazis too?

Keep reading the BNP site anti-fascist, why not take out a sub to their paper while you are about it, it seems you agree with them.

Having just reread all the posts above I’m roaring with laughter at the uptight tantrums of the likes of sonic and the moronic sim1.
Talk about shooting the messenger ! Harry obviously struck a nerve with the Respect bunch because they’ve gone completely off their trolleys. I’d be interested to see exactly what part of the BNP analysis quoted they found hardest to take ?
Anyone else know that Respect came second in one of the Birmingham seats on a platform of independent Kasmir ? That’s not communalism is it ? And please explain to me how Bangladeshis voting in Britain on the issue of islamic solidarity is not communalism. The cat is out of the bag and the respect lot don’t like what they see.

Keep reading the BNP site anti-fascist, why not take out a sub to their paper while you are about it, it seems you agree with them.

If I agreed with the BNP,and therefore shared their views of how politics in this country was going then it seems quite obvious that I would join Respect.

Is sonic arguing that everyone who voted for the BNP is a Nazi ?

Somebody’s nicking my line: ‘Respect and the BNP are two sides of the same coin’.

If you’re going to nick a line from me, why pick on something so banal?

On second thoughts, there’s not a lot of choice. Most of my comments are simplistic and not nuanced enough for a left wing blog, as I’ve been told so often.

Yeah right, us right wing people just gotta crawl into our worm holes and try not to say:

TOLD YOU SO!! NAHAHAHAHAHA! Lie down with dogs and get fleas. Respect, under the guise of anti-war (yeah right, anti-war but pro-jihad) have got into bed with the most reactionary elements on the planet, namely radical Islamists. And the racist bastards in the BNP are laughing their ugly shaven heads off. Surprised?? Not!!!

Despite the nahhahahha above, I’m not laughing. It’s a sad day for British politics. And, of course, it’s the end of the one safeguard of democracy, the secret ballot, thanks to the bloody postal vote, curses be upon its moustache.

Logan agrees with the BNP, no surprise there.

So now anti-nazi All respect members are fascists as well, great stuff there and all so very plausible.

I voted Respect last week and I am really. really regretting it after reading this. I keep getting the creepy feeling that in a few years I may have to explain my vote to my grandchildren with a real sense of shame.

Well said Logan3. It is obvious that Respect certainly showed no respect to the Hindu or Sikh voters of Birmingham Sparkbrook with all their anti-Indian propaganda designed to appeal to the Pakistani voters there. Talk about stirring up communal feeling in a multi-faith city. that is despicable communalism. Marginalising non Muslim Asians, playing on feelings of religious nationalism. This is potentialy incendiary and disastrous for race/religious relations in pressure cooker inner cities like Birmingham. And these people want to stoke the fire, pour petrol on it. This is bad, very very bad.

“Lie down with dogs and get fleas”

Says the fan of jihadwatch.

Logan agrees with the BNP that they are not nazis, no surprise there.

As it is obvious that the Respect supporters here aren’t capable of clicking on the link to read what I wrote about fighting communalism yesterday here is the conclusion:

It may sound old-fashioned but the best way to tackle communalism is surely bringing people together to stand up for their common interests. Campaigns for better housing in all areas, campaigns for better jobs for all communities, campaigns for better schools and public services for all. All things worth doing in themselves, especially with a Labour government in power, but with the added bonus of crossing the communal divide.

The left needs to respond to this poison with the politics of hope – showing in practice that our old slogans still have some life in them yet. That unity is strength, that a democratic society offers a way of dealing with problems, that a social-democratic economy can provide a decent life for all and the opportunities that offer a way out of poverty and marginalisation.

If you think the BNP agree with that then you are on another planet.

The BNP want race politics and communalism provides the best battleground for that.

Bizarre isn’t it that the usual suspects who are apologists for the “racist” muderers of the Baathist?jihadi sunni “resistance” are suddenly appalled by the “racist” policies of the BNP ? The ones who blow up Shias because they’re “different” are the heroic “resistance” but the ones who are pro-white and don’t blow people to pieces are evil fascists. Surely some contradiction ?

So now anti-nazi All respect members are fascists as well, great stuff there and all so very plausible.

I don’t think I said anything like that at all actually. But if it helps you to explain to yourself why the party you support is being hailed as a great breakthrough in British politics by the leader of the BNP then please go on distorting my words.

Anyway Sonic any chance of you explaining why the BNP are so effusive over Respect? In your own words like….

Logan defends the BNP, no surprises there.

Harry, you have went seriously over the top here. If you think, and I believe you do, that respect supporters are misguided thats fair enough. However to try and smear them using BNP propaganda is not.

BTW where did you get the link? I dont imagine it is a site you browse.

sonic

Please address the point I made about the Respect campaign in Birmingham playing on communalist feeling and specifically playing on the Kashmir issue to stoke ill feelings towards Indians amongst Pakistanis there. Do you think that is healthy politics or conducive to the health of our society? Given that inner city Birmingham has large numbers of Hindus and Sikhs? Is that good politics? Yes or no?

Anti-nazi, I assume the BNP are trying to capitalise on the, in my view mistaken, idea that respect is a muslim party.

This, of course, does not stand up to any serious critique, however as it is being pushed by some otherwise smart people the BNP are climbing on the bandwagon in their sad little fascist way.

What is more interesting than the ravings of a few bargain basement racist loonies is that people here are giving their arguments credibilty. Thats the real problem.

An anti-fascist comrade who monitors the BNP site sent me the link.

Like me, he is opposed to communalist politics and believes we need an anti-fascist and left alternative to defeat both the BNP and Respect.

Got any evidence of that Cheetah, I dont mean to sound suspicious but after the made up smears and slanders of the last few weeks I’d like to be able to do more than take your word for it.

With both being as bad as the other then Harry?

“Logan agrees with the BNP that they are not nazis, no surprise there.”

Poor sonic, his hysteria knows no bounds. Misquote away sonic , it’s very amusing.

If someone suggested that the muslims who voted on islamic lines for Respect were islamofascists sonic would scream blue murder (he’s very pro-islam is our sonic) but he feels free to describe the hundreds of thousands who voted BNP as “Nazis”. What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.

I’m off to watch Cabaret now. Of course if I hum during “Tomorrow Belongs To Me” who knows where I’ll end politically.

The Socialist Worker website carries a headline today stating:

“Mass campaigning can drive the Nazi BNP back into the gutter”

….presumably where they will find RESPECT….

Both parties are purely parasytical: feeding off social tensions that they happily stir up, offering no viable solutions, and using their voters as cannon fodder in unwinnable political battles that the vast majority of the population have no wish to be involved in.

Hopefully, the people who voted for both of them will come to realise that theirs is the politics of futile, self-deception.

And, only someone interested in hoodwinking other people or heavily into self-deception would accuse Harry of ’supporting’ the BNP just because he links to an article in which they gloat about how Respect’s strategy will boost BNP membership.

Sonic:

‘Says the fan of jihadwatch.’

So if you like one website (which, like this, contains a wide variety of views), you have no right to a voice on another website?

You’ve just got to toe the party line.

So what if you’re, say, economically right wing but socially liberal? What if you’re in favour of women’s rights, and, partly because of that, suspicious of multi-culturalism, when this means that non-Western cultures, no matter how misogynist are placed beyond criticism? What if you see racism within ethnic minorities as well as on the part of whites? What if you see that black rap culture is homophobic and anti-women? What if you’re just a human being who can, once in a while, step outside the party line?

No place for you in Sonic’s Utopia!

sonic

I am Indian and live in Birmingham. My evidence is a month of conversations with people in Sparkbrook in the run up to the election as well as noting the emphasis placed on Kashmir in Respect leaflets handed out across the Sparkbrook constituency and the assertions made of the need to fight against India. The language used, communalist in implication (constant referral to Respect being the party for Muslims, adding a obnoxious tone of communalism into inner city constituencies in which this makes plain that they could not give a toss about the implications of this kind of campaigning)

What do we want next, a political party only for the Sikhs? Or the Hindus? Lets stoke up their communal feelings too, lets get started, lets cause more division.

“Got any evidence of that Cheetah, I dont mean to sound suspicious but after the made up smears and slanders of the last few weeks I’d like to be able to do more than take your word for it.”

If you’re upset by smears and slanders sonic you shouldn’t read so much Respect propaganda.

Right behind you Harry.

The communities which seem to me to work best in London are those which are not dominated by one single race and its leaders but have a mixture of communities working together for the commo good.

My old stamping ground of Brixton has made major strides in the last 20 years and many people who would not have felt at all empowered there in 1979 now hold positions as school governers and police cell visitors etc. Meanwhile here in Deptford, Vietnamese,West Indians, Africans, and Muslims (in fact you would not rule out any language being spoken in the high street.) have joined with the mixed “cockney” population to start pulling an area which was once as bad as any North of the river into shape.

Galloway or the BNP would never get away with their crude politics round here (and I am sure in many other areas.) Their win in Bethnal Green and the BNPs gains in satellite areas are mere setbacks.

Onwards and upwards!

I dont have a utopia OP, apart from narrow neck beach on a sunny day.

But as I said, the fact you hang about hate sites like jihadwatch does you no credit.

Logan defends the BNP, well no surprise there.

David, where did anyone say that Harry supported the BNP? nice straw man but rather out of context.

Old Peculiar,

“No place for you in Sonic’s Utopia!”

Thankfully not!;-)

Graham – that’s positive stuff about Brixton, especially when you think of its past. Multi-racialism works very well. Multi-culturalism, at least as I understand it in the sense of separating cultures, is a bad idea.

George Galloway is a piece of shit.

In Birmingham the Labour Party has always been the natural home for people of all religious backgrounds from the Asian community. Communal tensions have never been elevated to a political level in any of the elections either Westminster or at Council level. Until Respect came into town. Sikhs Hindus and Muslims always campaigned together for social justice under the rubric of the Labour Party, they still do, but it worries me how long this can survive if we have this kind of single identity based politics each time ratcheting up communal feeling.

“No place for you in Sonic’s Utopia!”

It’s not a utopia I’d like to visit OP. Baathists, Noam Chomsky, Galloway, Yassir Arafat. Whoah !

Cheetah, I am still awaiting your evidence.

Sonic:

‘the fact you hang about hate sites like jihadwatch does you no credit.’

So have you visited this site much then? Have you tried to argue your case against opposition, as I’ve done here? Or would you prefer that people kept only to sites that echo their views? In SonicLand, presumably, there would be an elite set of PC folks and an underclass of Morlocks like me.

“well no surprise there.”

If sonic can get through just ONE thread without writing the above line , it will be Utopia.

Sonic,

“where did anyone say that Harry supported the BNP?”

what about this post further up the thread:

“Harry finally you you are beginning to admit what some of us have been saying for a while now; that you have more in common with fascists than genuine leftists. If any proof is needed then surely this is it?
Inviting Nick to dinner anytime soon??”

sonic

You are being wilfully obnoxious. Does nothing I have said strike a chord with you? Do you or do you not believe that this kind of politics is good for community relations in religiously and racially mixed constituencies in Birmingham? Go and read Respects leaflets for Sparkbrook to see the emphasis placed on Kashmir.

I notice that the hyper-active sonic hasn’t found the time to respond to cheetah’s very relevant comments about Birmingham Sparkbrook – well no surprise there then.

Seen the site OP, then had a shower.

What is this obsession with my utopia or with SonicLand are you expecting me to take over the world or something.

Still we certainly know which religion would be banned in PeculiarLand dont we.

;)

Brixton always had a big sense of community OP. It was just that most of the community once felt disenfranchised and unable to connect with wider society.

One thing that nobody has mentioned about Bethnal Green and its environs (and this really has nothing to do with having a large Muslim community) is the amount of change that people have had to deal with very quickly there. I am sure the BNP’s victory on the isle of Dogs for instance had as much to do with the fact that several square miles of the streets that people knew and had grown up in were to be flattened to build the monstrous monument to capitalism that was canary wharf as it had to do with race. Add to that the way the city of London is encroaching into Spitalfields and the “gentrification” of Brick lane and Shoreditch and the “flight” (and not just white flight) to the Essex suburbs amongst other things and you have an east-end “community” which feels distinctly transient and almost left-out of “success”.

Then in steps Gorgeous.

Sonic’s outnumbered, maybe give him a break to learn the error of his ways?

Hmmmm….

“You are being wilfully obnoxious”

I’m asking for some evidence that Respect ran a communalist campaign in Birmingham. If what you say is true why do you get so upset?

” Go and read Respects leaflets for Sparkbrook”

It’s a long flight.

Graham,

So you are a Deptford lad!

Your not into Millwall and punk rock by any chance are you?

What sonic fails to see is that what Harry has produced is a frightening prediction for the next election in East London, be it council, europe, mayor or by-election.

I’ve lived in this area for a long time, I’ve seen the BNP come and go and I was around when Derek Beackon got his Millwall seat. That fired up a huge anti-facist response reminiscent of the Cable Street days, Beackon was eventually ousted by a combination of his stupidity as a counciller and the natural opposition to facists, but it still took a lot of activism.

Why Beackon got in was a percieved favouritism towards the Asian community, mixed in with a huge dose of apathy. It was established that it would never happen again, the upsurge in interest actually helped Labour, only for Respect to come along and exploit it.

All Galloway and Respect have done is set this back years, already BNP made siginificant gains in neighbouring constituencies further east, including the 16% in Barking. Strangely BNP avoided fielding candidates against Respect in East London, did they know about this in advance ?

Reading Harry’s article I now know they’ll be back next time, I’m not ready to put on my Enoch Powell novelty horror mask and quote just yet, but things are going to get very nasty.

Thanks a bunch, mate.

sonic

This is pure sophistry. You are being obnoxious. Just answer the following question. Do you believe that the politics of single religion grievance and appeals to communal identity are a healthy form of politics for a city in which many different religious groups live in close proximity and in relative harmony? Especially when such a form of politics leads to divisiveness and marginalisation of other groups? Do you agree with that? Yes or no? Its a simple question.

Sonic, the guy is from Birmingham and has told you what he has seen and heard.

So give it a rest with your demands for ‘evidence’ – it just sounds like you are accusing the guy of lying.

By the way, in the elections Respect backed the Peace and Justice Party in the Midlands. The same party that in the Euro elections issued a leaflet attacking the Lib Dems for being ‘pro-gay’.

Graham – you’ve got a point.

Sonic: PeculiarLand – well it’s a kind of paradise with lots of Fawlty Towers, Young Ones, The Office, Little Britain, Catherine Tate show, Nighty Night and Blackadder, but, like the ‘renewable virgins’ of Islamic paradise, you see each episode for the first time.

Endless cider (wine, beer, especially Old Peculier) will flow freely in fragrant rivers. There will be no work or political correctness. Islam, obviously, will not get a look in, but people of all races, genders and transgendered and hetero- homo- and poly-sexual are very welcome provided they are a good laugh.

Bring it on!

OP, you’re right. sonic is hopelessly out of his depth tonight, bless him. He’s probably going to go to Islamonline for some light reading.

BTW cheetah did you see melanie philips article about the Sparkbrook result ? The sources she quotes seem to back up your local experiences. sonic knows better though – he’s on the other side of the planet so has a much better grasp of what’s going on here than any of us locals do.

RESPECT apologists, wake up! There is no sensible argument to be made that RESPECT is of the “left”.

I beg you to start making a contribution to fighting communalist politics, whether practiced by George “skin colour comparison” Galloway or Nick “skin colour comparison” Griffin.

Has hating america really damaged RESPECT apologists that much?

Yes.

Hahahaha Harry no I’m not from Deptford Fun City originally, I’m from the former socialist republic of Brixton.

I do count the former Bass-player from ATV as one of my best friends however (though I never got on with Perry!)And yes I am a mouldering old punk!

As for Millwall, I went to school in Peckham where gangs of kids would ask if you supported Millwall or Palace and then beat the shit out of you if you gave the wrong answer, so I started supporting Everton (which confused them and gave me time to run away) and have ever since (even after tonights result!)

Are you familiar with a bunch known as ‘The Brain’?

” give it a rest with your demands for ‘evidence’”

Imagine asking for evidence, how awful!

“us locals” do you live in Birmingham Sparkbrook Logan?

OP, throw in some Seinfeld, a barman who can make the perfect Vodka Martini and a radio station that only plays Northern Soul and I’ll be there !!

Ah you mean the brain of Morbius maybe?

If so I sure am!

Logan3

Yes, I read the Melanie Phillips article. It is a bad road to be travelling down in Birmingham. We dont want to cause divisiveness. What the hell is the point in demonising and marginalising Sikhs and Hindus and Afro-Caribbeans from Muslims? Why? This politics is absolute madness. Social justice will come for the people of Birmingham through a party that can deliver, the Labour Party, that delivers for all people, not just playing on the fears and religiosity of one community to the exclusion of others. I cant stand the casual way some people try to gloss over very real concerns and worries about what Respect represent, what the implications of this style and kind of politics will be. Religious politics is volatile, once you set it off it is difficult to control, it becomes a tiger that can eat us all. Its bad politics.

I work in Sparkhill, Birmingham: I have obseved how the “Respect” condidate there, Salma Yaquoob (less objectionable than Galloway) courted the local Pakistani, communalist vote. How her election literature carried endorsements from Pakistani businessmen (including one well-known to be a gangster)..how her first meeting included an offer of a free meal (”treating”)..her failure to disown anti-semitic attacks on the sitting Labour MP (the obnoxious Roger Godsiff)… and the fact that her entire campaign was run through local mosques…

And the idiots of the SWP and their fellow-travellers deny that this was communalism???

“I went to school in Peckham where gangs of kids would ask if you supported Millwall or Palace and then beat the shit out of you if you gave the wrong answer, ”

My uncle said that went he went to school gangs of kids would ask “Mods or rockers” or “zulus or redcoats” and whatever you answered they beat you up.
It seems some in Bethnal Green seem to have taken this Q & A routine to a new level.

Graham,

I knew it.

Lets take this conversation private however. Too many oddballs around here to start discussing Aylward and co.

Bung me an email sometime.

Old Peculiar,

“Multi-culturalism, at least as I understand it in the sense of separating cultures, is a bad idea.”

It depends on whether the cultures have at least some shared values that are common to them all.

If the norms and values of one culture are at complete odds to the shared values of the others then problems are unavoidable.

The Netherlands is easily the most dramatic Western Euroopean example of how a multi-cultural system can start to come apart at the seams – particularly when it was not well-constructed in the first place. It really is a very serious situation and with no viable solutions.

Imagine it: Europe’s most liberal society with many happily co-existing cultures and almost overnight, one deeply reactionary culture suddently bang in the middle of it….no wonder there is an exodus from the cities….of course, if the culture that can’t or won’t assimilate happens to be one of the Left’s favoured victim groups then all sorts of excuses are used about it’s bad behaviour: you know: a bit of queer-bashing here and wife-beating there soon gets blamed on ’society’ rather than the bashers and beaters and the ideology that commends their behaviour.

Good Lord is it true that Harry knows Elwell, Bones and crew? Last time I saw them they were incapable of getting any further north than Greenwich, let alone Burnley and arranging a gig.

Jim Denham

It is madness. I feel as if I am screaming and nobody wants to hear me. In a city like Birmingham this type of communalist politics is madness. Especially when it plays up differences amongst Asians and marginalises Indians from Pakistanis. What will happen is we will see a communal reaction from Sikhs and Hindus in return. This is absolutely deranged. Sixty years ago India was partitioned along the lines of religion and it caused nothing but bloodshed and strife. And now these religious demons are being stoked again, here in England.

righto will do Harry

Last time I saw them they were incapable of getting beyond the bar they were slouched over….

Cheetah, I understand how you must be feeling. I have Hindu friends in Nottingham whose families came to this country to get way from the religious strife they encountered in their part of India. Their parents are quite anxious about the support both the BNP and Respect are getting .

Cheetah,

I don’t know Birmingham well but I was under the impression that multi-culturalism in Britain had generally worked quite well because there is far more integration between cultures and less separation than in parts of France and Benelux.

And, if this multi-culturalism generally exists well than the demagoguery of the BNP and RESPECT is not going to cause too many problems.

Wasn’t Gorgeous George’s election victory something of a symbolic one-man-show really – like a really successful version of a Kilroy populist candidate except rather nastier politically but, nevertheless, fairly restricted in fall-out to one consituency which will soon realise the error of its ways once GG fails to deliver as a constituency MP.

Or could he start touring the country trying to stoke up religious strife?…

I can well understand cheetah’s gneral position, and also his frustration. The apologists for Respect ask for “evidence”, and then when you explain what exists or what you have seen or heard, they say “this is not good enough” – effectively implying – “you liar”. What the hell do they want? Documents mailed to their bloody lawyers? This is just a blog for God’s sake. How do you expect to be provided with “evidence” other than through what people write on it?!

Of course all they really want is a safe pat phrase which excuses them from having to examine the faustian pact that they’ve made – we’ve seen it before, and we’ve seen it again in this post with the screeching about Harry being in hock to the BNP. It’s pathetic, it doesn’t wash, and no one believes them.

David Bruno and Cheetah,

I certainly hope hat “Respect”’s reactionary, communalist appeal to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, subsides. Certainly, there is the hope that once the Iraq question has subsided (and the so-called “resistance” been exposed for what it is: a bunch of Ba’athists plus a bunch of non-Iraqi Isamists), then working class Muslims will be open to a class approach. But that means that Labour will have to address the very real social and economic issues that exist in these communities. The Blairite yuppies who have seized control of the Labour party presently show no sign of even understanding the issues at stake. demagogic charlatans like Galloway *do* understand: hence their appeal (especially when combined, as in the case of “Respect” with anti-semitism).

“The apologists for Respect ask for “evidence”,

And where is it?

I hope I never get you on a Jury.

Sonic: you require “evidence”? Try his:
1/ Galloway (last year) publicising himself as “a fighter for Muslims”, “teetotal”, ” to a Palestinian” and “deeply religiou” (those quotes from memory, by the way: so they may not be absolutely word-perfect, but I’m confident that they’re accurate);

2/ Galloway’s campaign (this year) noticeably failing to make a clear statement against the anti-semitic attacks on Oona King;

3/ Salma Yaqoob in Sparkbrook /Small Heath (B’ham), basing her campaign on the local Mosques, accepting (ie: publishing in her material) the endorsement of a local Pakistani gangster/slum landlord and engaging in “treating” at her first publicised meeting…

4/ Yvonne Ridley (admittedly, there may be mental health issues here), campaigning as “Sister Yvonne” last year…

5/ Finally, to go back to Brum: the noticeable difference between Salma Yaquob’s very impressive showing against Roger Godsiff, and Dr Nasseem’s much less impressive showing against Khalid Mahmood…despite the fact that Mahmood is pro-war. The only explanation for this discrepancy is communalism; yaquob was standing against a white Labour incumbent widely portrayed as “Jewish”…wheras dr. Naseem was standing against a Pakestani Muslim incimbent.

If I’m wrong about that, please correct me; but also let me know your alternative explanation.

The tragedy of all this is that the SWP/Respect have re-introduced communlist politics to Britain some forty years after it was defeated and driven out of Liverpool and Glasgow, by working class socialists. The Pakistani and Bangladeshi poeople of london , Birmingham and elsewhere will pay the price. i hope the SWP and their friend Mr Galloway, are suitably proud of themselves.

Its interesting seeing Harry using the arguments of the BNP (and its ridiculous language and terminology) against Respect, whether he approves of it or not.

Since the BNP are white supremacists and racists, of course they will attack anyone working with brown people, and any party that has the support of large numbers of brown people (and Muslims – who the BNP despise.)

There should be no surprise about that coming from racists and fascists, and its not a valid argument against to be used against Respect.

Furthermore: where Respect were strongest the BNP were nowhere to be seen. Of course, one realises Harry’s desires as a Labour Party supporter. He wants his party to be effective anti-BNP campaigners. But they are not. They are complete failures. In Margaret Hodge’s constituency, the BNP gained nearly 17% of the vote. In Blunkett’s own constiteuncy it gained 6%. There are many other examples of Labour’s failure against the fascism of the BNP.

The BNP vote has grown during Labour’s 8 years of govt. Harry should go to other parts of the BNP website, where Nick Griffin boasts how Labour is now talking their language, playing on their territory.

That’s the real story – the real story of Labour failure.

Ah Jim with the same old AWL lies, do you ever change the record?

1)Galloway out exactly the same stuff on hos leaflets when he was elected as MP for Glasgow Hilhead, so what.

2) Respect condemmed all types of anti-semitism as you well know

3) “engaging in “treating” you will have to explain that one to me.

As for the rest “The only explanation for this discrepancy is communalism” did you ever think that Salma is a better candidate? or that Respect had a better campaign there?

“The Pakistani and Bangladeshi poeople of london , Birmingham and elsewhere will pay the price”

Is that a threat?

No Benjamin

The BNP has not endorsed a fascist dictator as your party has.

The BNP has not worked with groups like the SWP, which supports N Korea, Syria and other dictatorships.

There is no need for the BNP is a RESPECT area, as Gallaways’ group does race-hate so much better.

Given the choice of two race-hate parties, I’d take the BNP every time.

And another sad little racist outs himself.

No, “Sonic”, you very stupid person. Thre is a difference between a “threat” and a *prediction*.
I note that you do not (*cannot*) dispute any of my statements on this subject. Just one example of your misrepresentation: you say “respedt” has “condemned all types of anti-semitism”…OK? When and where in Bethnal Green? Or anywhere else? (I’m not talking about the SWP’s token Jews writing to the Guardian: I mean a clear statement in the Bethnal Green election). If you cannot provide me with evidence of a clear condemnation of anti semitism from this election campaign, then I will ask you to kindly shut your face, Sonic.

Jim Denham

That’s all very well. However, a central point is the growth of the BNP during Labour govt. Labour is failing against the BNP. Communalism by Respect may be an issue. But there is a political vacuum created by Labour, and so others will take up the struggle.

Social democrats like Harry and company will wring their hands, but they clearly have no answer. During 8 years of social democratic govt the BNP has grown.

“the SWP’s token Jews”

And you call respect racist? is that all you can say Jewish people being in the organisation you call anti-semitic.

Be off with you.

Given the choice of two race-hate parties, I’d take the BNP every time.

I’m sure your view is shared by several who post here.

After all, at least the BNP are white and anti-Islam, hey?

Be off with you, Sonic,

What exactly, is “racist” about the term “token Jews”? You may or may not agree that it is fair description of the bunch of well-known (on the left) Jews drafted in to put their names to a statement sent to the “Guardian” on behalf of Galloway.

You may, or may not agree with my assessment in this particular context… but how is it “racist”?

Please explain. Or admit to hysteria.

Come on, Sonic: I’ve been waiting: Tell me how the term “token Jews” is racist?

(Whereas the term “Jewish MP”, used about Roger Godsiff in Birmingham Sparkbrook, is not??)

Oh sorry James, I do have to take the odd work break (we are not all sitting boozing it up at 1am you know)

A group of jewish people make a statement saying respect condemns all forms of anti-semitism and you say they are nothing but “the SWP’s token Jews”

Are you honestly telling us that you do not see a slight problem with that statement?

Who used the term Jewish MP”,about Roger Godsiff in Birmingham Sparkbrook?

Was it me?

Was it George Galloway?

Was it in Socialist Worker

Or did the voices in your head tell you?

It was “Respect” (in their conversatins to Muslim voters on the doorsteps and in addresses at the Mosques) : how do I know? A Pakistani Muslim person who is a prominent Sparkhill resident, told me – giving examples and names.

Ah the Elephant roars, and produces a mouse.

Did you see it? well no but someone you supposedly know told you about it.

As you were out campaigning for Labour may I ask if your source was in the Labour party?

What do you want, “Sonic”: a name and address? I’m quite satisfied, on the basis of my informant, and also my own obsevations (for instance, one of Salma Yaqoob’s main boosters is someone who had previously approached me about disciplining a Muslim woman who had “gone astray” with a white man…the “disciplne to involve putting the woman in her place, and letting the man get away with it…)

I really do believe, Sonic, that people like you don’t understand just how racist, anti-woman, and anti-semitic, some ethnic minority communities can be, And so you think it’s OK when shysters like the SWP come along and capitalise on it…

Some of us *don’t* think it’s OK…not least for Muslim women, democrats, free-thinkers, gays and socialists…and there are -believe it or not – plenty of them. The problem is that the SWP and “Respect” would grass them up to the thugs as soon as look at them

“What do you want, “Sonic”: a name and address”

Well an answer to my question “Is he a Labour party member/supporter” would be a start. (funny how you dodged that one eh)

“I really do believe, Sonic, that people like you don’t understand just how racist, anti-woman, and anti-semitic, some ethnic minority communities can be”

While the white community is a homegenous block of happy liberals, there is no homophobia amongst White people? no racism? no white woman getting beaten up by their partners?

Your racist assumptions that only immigrants have these problems show you up for what you are.

Then you get worse, it’s amazing!

“the SWP and “Respect” would grass them up to the thugs as soon as look at them”

Have you any evidence that this has ever happened? have you any evidence that some nebulous group of “thugs” are going around beating up Muslim democrats?

No of course you dont James, as it is all a little fantasy in your own little head.

Thats twice in three posts you have managed to expose the racist undercurrent in your thinking. I’m not saying that you personally are conscously racist, but James you are going to look at your assumptions when you blithely start talking about “token jews” and how all immigrants are more “reactionary” that white people.

I really do believe, Sonic, that people like you don’t understand just how racist, anti-woman, and anti-semitic, some ethnic minority communities can be

There are some in that community, in every community, who hold dubious views. But many are ex-Labour voters who people like Roger Godsiff would quite happily have accepted the votes of.

You complain that Respect or the SWP are coming along to “capitalise” on them. Any more so than Labour have for years and years?

Salma Yaqoob, a Muslim woman got nearly 10,500 votes. Are those voters extremists?

Furthermore: Roy Hattersley has noted that Labour in Birmingham has for years taken Muslim votes for granted. He would have prefered a Labour Muslim candidate.

Sure, whinge about how awful Respect or the SWP are if you want, and have a go at ethnic minorities.

But its the Labour Party who for years relied on those ethnic minorities to get elected. It’s now, because they dare not to vote Labour, that you turn on them. Suddenly they are dangerous women hating extremists.

But The Labour Party in Sparkbrook at least knows that it cannot take ethnic minority voters for granted anymore. Its got competition.

And if anyone wants to question my anti-fascist commitment then I’ll be happy to meet you in person to discuss it.
I question it, in fact I question a lot of things about you period and I would love the opportunity to meet up with you.
Interestingly, I accorded you this very opportunity during your ill-fated canvassing for Oona in my neighbourhood but you never took me up on the offer.

Name the place and the time and I shall be there. Hope to see you soon, closet BNP fascist:-).

Hope you get some licks too!

“Hope to see you soon, closet BNP fascist:-).”

>After all, at least the BNP are white and anti-Islam, hey?

After all, at least the BNP hasn’t come out in support of a fascist dictator and tried to spring his deputy from jail.

At least the BNP isn’t in bed with a group like the SWP that supports N Korea, Syria, and bases its campaigns on Jew-hate.

That’s why I’d take the BNP over Repsect every time.

Somehow I don’t think Respect supporters are too bothered about Gallaway/SWP’s strange love affair with dictators.

[I've skipped the last 80 comments - life's too short. Pull me up if I missed anything].

I didn’t vote Respect precisely because ‘Sister Yvonne’ put herself forward as a communalist candidate.

Harry, I agree with you that the solution is in colour-blind class-based organisation. But when you call on your mate Blair to deliver it, you are pissing in the wind. As Larry Elliott pointed out a few weeks back, Blair sees his job as to re-shape the workers in the interests of capitalism, not capitalism in the interests of the workers.

Dave, Sonic, Shaun, Sim1 et al

Get. A. Grip.

Actually read H’s post, think about it and then
come back and enter into a debate that isn’t pointless name calling and mean spirited.

I expect such things from rightists, not socialists.

I am having trouble grasping how people have reached the idea that in quoting the odius BNP H has suddenly become a card carrying member. He was doing it to
The lack of mental faculty to come to that conclusion is actually quite worrying for those concerned.

As ever I agree with Ben, keep up the fight in the big smoke!

Neil W

sonic has shown himself to be mendacious and utterly contemptuous of those people worried by the introduction of communalist politics in Britain and utterly contemptuous of the Indian Hindus and Sikhs who feel marginalised and threatened by this. Such contempt and sneering is indicative of the Respect party line and methodology.

Jim Denham, thanks for all of those posts.

I presume sonic supports communal politics in a city as religiously diverse as Birmingham where we have never had to contend with this kind of nonsense before. sonic sitting on the other side of the world knows best, or so he thinks.

It is outrageous.

I can’t help but notice that Sonic never did respond to Cheetah’s first-hand evidence from Birmingham.

The claim that Harry is quoting the BNP “approvingly” is jaw-droppingly bogus. If to refer to something is automatically to approve of it then it’s good to see everyone approving of Harry so thoroughly. It’s also hard to see which part of the argument that the BNP approve of Respect is false given that they refer to them in the material that Harry quotes.

Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is still your enemy. Unless of course you are a Respect supporter.

Dave, Sim1

You have really lost the plot.

Personally, I would apologise, thats the civilised thing to do.

Neil W

back and enter into a debate that isn’t pointless name calling and mean spirited.

Well you would have a valid point if Harry & Co hadn’t made an art out of accusing others of “anti-Semitism” and fascism for simply linking to sites they deem anti-Semite, fascist and racist.

I do sincerely hope and pray that you would develop the courage and moral backbone to stop this herd mentality of agreeing with whatever Harry says. And I urge you; for once, think for yourself instead of being a drummer-boy for Harry.

I accuse the SWP of anti-semitism because they have a Jew-fetish.

Because their website and newspapers are full of Jew-hate.

Because their campaigners peddle Jew hate.

Because they ignore most dictatorships in the Middle East and focus their hate on the Jewish state.

Because they believe in Protocols theories of Jewish domination of America.

Dave the SWP makes the BNP look feeble.

Well thanks for questioning my freedom of thought and action.

Has it occured to you that I might actually simply agree with Harry on this?

There is, I think, a difference between linking to a site on your website – a permanent link which could be construed as tacit agreement and support for the linked sites content, and then on your blog quoting the BNP (not linking) and saying ‘ this is what these wankers are saying, its worrying and linking it with communal politics.

Thats the difference between night and day.

Or have IQs fallen this morning? Sun spot activity perchance?

Neil W

I’m with Neil on this. This is an interesting post which deserves further discussion, not an avalanche of abuse and counter-abuse. There’s a lot of name-calling in the comments boxes at the moment which adds nothing to to the debates, and just leaves the rest of this with a lot of shit to scroll through.

sonic pay no attention to the rubbish posted by denham and cheetah.in Birmingham communal politics have been consistently traweled by the
labour party,witness the recent exposing of the postal vote fraud.
Harry in west brom the bnp say the same crap about labour favouring the ethnic minorities.

Has it occured to you that I might actually simply agree with Harry on this?

Just this once?
Come on mate, when have you ever disagreed with what Harry writes, serioulsy?
It’s a herd mentality and a very sad reflection of people who can’t think for themselves but have to always parrot the party-line.

Well, what an interesting night at HP. Although it was fun to see sonic, sim1 and Dave go into meltdown, it was also sad to see that they are inapable of reasoned discussion. The school yard logic of “well, you mentioned the BNP so you must be a supporter” shows the level at which the Respect apologists are operating.
Further proof, as though it was needed, of how far off the scale some of the so-called Left has gone. I’m grateful to Harry and HP and posters like Jim and Cheetah for exposing the respect gang for the fanatics they really are.

Dave
I can’t actually see why this is a problem – meaning my often agreement with Harry. In this particular case I am also in agreement with him, again.

If I agree with someone, I agree with them, I don’t apply an ideological filter and then decide.

I base my opinion on an asessment of the facts, not faith, or ideology but knowlege. And guess what, when I learn something new I even change my mind on something. Gosh, shock, horror.

Now about you lot missing the point of Harrys post – don’t you think there is a great deal of difference between:
**between linking to a site on your website – a permanent link which could be construed as tacit agreement and support for the linked sites content, and then on your blog quoting the BNP (not linking) and saying ‘ this is what these wankers are saying, its worrying and linking it with communal politics’ And that this is bad thing**

And I would add its bad news when ANYONE practises this kind of divsive shite is bad news – whether its Respect, the BNP, Labour etc.

Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

A hyopthetical example of whether providing a link means that you support the moral values of the ‘linkee’ might be as follows:

I’m looking forward to linking to a future ‘Gorgeous George’ publication such as a self-help guide for voters such as:

“How to become rich, influential and constantly tanned like me!” OR

“The A-Z of health, wealth, mutliple property-ownership and interesting international project management and retaining one’s socialist cred!”…

Or even:

“How to make friends with Tyrants and influence them!”

Now, would that mean I would approve of the author or his works?

PS1 – that’s a rhetotical question so I don’t need an answer

PS2 – Gorgeous George is a purely fictional person and bear no resemblance to any living person and these titles are a pure figment of my imagination

Neil W:

‘Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?’

It isn’t. Even if you disagree with Harry it should be obvious what he means. It’s obvious to me and I’m a right winger!

(Bethnal Green and Bow is being investigated for postal vote fraud. It could have tipped the balance.)

It really is very simple. Sonic, please answer in a straight fashion the following questions, without launching a distracting counter attack, and explaining your reasons:

1.) Even if you believe that Respect’s policies on issues of interest to the ‘Islamic world’ (e.g. Palestine, Israel, Iraq War) is based on principled leftism and just happens to coincide with the agendas and worldviews of Islamists, do you accept that Galloway chose Bethnal Green to fight because of its high Bangladeshi population?

2.) Do you accept that Respect’s policies appealed to that particular electorate because of a communalist, Muslim worldview, rather than a socialist worldview?

3.) In other words, do you accept that Respect deliberately targeted Bethnal Green because it was likely to benefit there from a communalist vote based on its stance on the Iraq War etc.

4.) Do you then accept that this is opportunist communal politics, of the type exploited by ‘ethnic entrepreneurs’ across the globe?

5.) Do you accept that this is not a GOOD THING?

Thank you

(Bethnal Green and Bow is being investigated for postal vote fraud. It could have tipped the balance.)

Except that the people being accused of fraud are Labour not Respect: certainly the only name that has come up is Labour Party activist Abdus Salique.

At one address owned by Abdus Salique, a local businessman and Labour supporter who recently hosted a lunch for the party’s candidate, Oona King, and the London mayor, Ken Livingstone, there are 12 names on the roll.

But when the Guardian visited the premises, a businessman who rents an office in the building said that none of those named lived there.

The electors have not been registered for postal votes, but polling cards have been delivered and are now in the possession of Mr Salique. Under electoral law, no proof of identification is required at the polling station

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election/story/0,15803,1475848,00.html

OP:
Cheers. Now OP the beer – which is best: large spoon or shovel? Man, that is some heavy ale.

Dan:
Postal votes should be scrapped. Its an embarrassment all round! For example, in Bradford the people under investigation are mainly tories. This is one story that will run and run.

Neil ‘Voice of Reason’ W

Dan – fair enough, but the postal vote is wrong whoever benefits from it.

There you go again. Slipping right back into pretentuous sophmoric analysis. I’m just tired of your infantile games Pete.

You and your right wing mates use ‘anti semitism’ as a battering ram to stifle opposition to your views regarding the Middle East.

It is a strategy which is riddled, just like the patriarchal capitalist system, with contradictions.

You are effectivly accusing arabs (who are semites) of being anti-semitic.

You should be ashamed. You have a lot to learn from the left. We don’t cry ‘RACIST’ at the drop of a hat. It’s irresponsible and unacceptable.
When are you going to grow up Pete?

I don’t know if you realise, Harry, but you’ve finally given us incontrovertable proof that you’re talking complete bollocks about RESPECT, and everything else, probably. Has anyone ever told you that you’re a ’self-hating communist’?

They have now.

That’ll be something to tell people about at parties.

Comrade Smirnoff – you rock.

Obviously I’m using ‘rock’ in a postmodern irconic way. ‘Rock’ is a mere signifier, nay a meme.

According to Chomsky…………………………………………………………………………………….zzzzzzzzzzzzz…………….