Iranian students challenge denial fest
The Times reports:
Dozens of Iranian students burnt pictures of President Ahmadinejad and chanted “Death to the dictator” as he gave a speech at a university in Tehran yesterday.
Never has the hardline leader faced such open hostility at a public event, which came as Iran opened a conference questioning whether Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews.
One student activist said that the protest was against the “shameful” Holocaust conference and the “fact that many activists have not been allowed to attend university”. The conference “has brought to our country Nazis and racists from around the world”, he added.
Mr Ahmadinejad responded by saying: “Everyone should know that Ahmadinejad is prepared to be burnt in the path of true freedom, independence and justice”, according to an Iranian students’ news agency. He accused the protesters of being “Americanised”.
Addressinng the conference, Ahmadinejad said Israel “will one day be ‘wiped out’ as the Soviet Union was, drawing applause from participants in a conference casting doubt on the Nazis’ systematic extermination of 6 million Jews.”
If you can stand it, the Holocaust-denying Adelaide Institute has the conference’s complete agenda, with photos.
Among those addressing the conference was one Shiraz Dossa, a political science professor at Nova Scotia’s St. Francis Xavier University, who was shocked, shocked, to discover the true nature of the conference.
Dossa told The Globe he was alarmed to discover that Holocaust deniers played such a visible role at the conference.
“I did not know exactly who was coming to the conference, and frankly, I think these people are hacks and lunatics,” he said. “I frankly wouldn’t even shake hands with most of them.”
Now I want to be fair, and to give credit to every “anti-imperialist” individual, publication or website which unequivocally (i.e., without blaming Israel for antisemitism) condemns the Iranian authorities for sponsoring the conference and/or praises the brave Iranian students who have publicly denounced Ahmadinejad. Any candidates yet?
And who is more worthy of admiration and support from genuine leftists? These folks?
Or this guy?
Comments
| 13 December 2006, 6:05 pm |
If Shiraz Dossa was taken by surprise, he should not have been. Much has been in the press about Ahmadinejad’s denial of the Holocaust in conjunction with his calls for Israel to be relocated to Europe and the Holocaust Cartoon Contest and then there would be the list of participants too.
But then apparently Dossa’s pet theory is that the fact of the Holocaust has been used to justify “anti-Islamic” laws, as opposed to, say, seditious and violent acts carried out by persons claiming to be inspired by the Quoran that are to blame…
Another fair example of a PHd who shouldn’t be paid to count paper clips.
| 13 December 2006, 6:06 pm |
Today’s Globe and Mail has an article about Dossa here.
A quote from the article:
“I understand where the Iranian government is coming from. Because I am well aware that for at least the last four or five years, there has been a steady stream of invective directed at Iran by Israel. People like [Israeli Prime Minister] Ehud Olmert have threatened Iran repeatedly with a nuclear holocaust if they did not fall into line. And there has been a steady stream of anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment — so I can see why Iran is nervous.
“My stand is that Iran is trying to embarrass the West and say, ‘Look, we are practising what you preach. We are allowing freedom of discussion of just about any issue, including the Holocaust.’ And I agree with that.”
Uh huh.
| 13 December 2006, 6:36 pm |
Those students have balls. I wish more students in the UK were like them.
| 13 December 2006, 6:40 pm |
The violent proclamations by Ahmadinejad become more alarming by the day. Through this perverse and twisted conference his unbalanced mindset becomes obvious and the forces that he chooses to align himself with – the KKK, white supremacists, convicted holocaust deniers. Just like Hitler who preceded him, he presents a menace not only to Israel but the free world. He will have to be tackled sooner rather than later.
If not sooner the World may be faced with the dangers of a nuclear armed Iran ! Unity in the face of this impending danger is called for.
| 13 December 2006, 6:48 pm |
Dossa is either incredibly naive, stupid or lying.
it should be obvious to anyone capable of reading a newspaper that the attendees would primarily be Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and their allies, and that the orientation of the “conference” would be determined by the Iranians with the intention of denying the Holocaust and providing a platform for associated racist filth
I am hardly surprised that Dossa is an admirer of Noam Chomsky, it speaks volumes
| 13 December 2006, 7:03 pm |
Hmmm…you mean to say that these students were not lined up and shot? My god, what are dictatorships coming to?
If US students tried something like that, (i.e. lighting a fire near Mr. Bush) they probably would have been shot without being lined up.
At least Iran is not responsible for killing 6 million Jews, or hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (except in self defence from US inspired war in the 80’s).
And why did Ayatolah Khomeini make sure Iran’s Jews got one seat in Iran’s Parliament? He must have really hated them, to not give them 2 or 3…
Let’s face it, this is a pro-Israel lot here who have an interest in making sure there is never any other economic or military power to challenge Israel in the Middle East…is that it?
Here, take a look:
The History of the Future in the Middle East
Chris Voidis
| 13 December 2006, 7:03 pm |
The Google cache of that Adelaide Institute website suggests that Norman Finklestein was scheduled to speak.
| 13 December 2006, 7:13 pm |
Chris, you’re an idiot.
| 13 December 2006, 7:16 pm |
Bissli,
thank you for your constructive comment.
I am sure all the other readers here will take note of your exquisite critique. Bravo, my friend!
| 13 December 2006, 7:33 pm |
Chris:
Perhaps you haven’t heard, but politics makes strange bedfellows.
Khomeini hated Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular and instituted Al-Quds Day. A somewhat practical man, however, he likely didn’t want to see the 25,000 or so remaining in Persia when he took power leaving to join the 150,000 or so who had already left for Israel. For a little while there, Israel supplied him with arms to fight Saddam, and probably saved him more than anyone else by whacking out Osirek.
As for the humanitarianism of the Islamic Regime, I think it did a pretty good job of exterminating its own domestic opponents and continues to be one of the most oppressive police states around.
And while the students set fire to a picture of Ahmadinejad, I don’t see where there was any suggestion of threat to his immediate person. Had there been, I’m sure Ahmadinejads guards would have been head-cracking away just as they have at other campus protests and transit workers’ strikes over the last few years.
| 13 December 2006, 7:37 pm |
Lynne:
agreed, politics do make strange bedfellows.
Why did 150000 leave for Israel? Why did he want the rest to remain in Iran? I ask these questions in earnest.
As to the students, it seems to me that in such a ruthless police state, these people would have been bundled up and made to dissappear, like in the good old days of the US supported Shah…
Chris Voidis
| 13 December 2006, 7:39 pm |
“Surely, historians will point out, … Iran …was a new economic, political and cultural force that offer the region a new model of development and Islamic Democracy”
How much are they paying you to write this crap, Chris?
| 13 December 2006, 7:45 pm |
clearly they ain’t paying him that much, given the poor quality of the spiel
| 13 December 2006, 7:53 pm |
Perhaps, Chris, the regime knows which students were involved in the protests and plans to respond to their actions in a less public manner. Perhaps, also, at the moment the regime regards workers’ protests as more threatenting than students’ protests. Consider the case of Mansour Osanloo. You do know who Mansour Osanloo is, don’t you? If not, you can type his name in the search box at the upper left.
| 13 December 2006, 7:58 pm |
Chris Voidis,
Bearing in mind the current horrific murders in Ipswich how does the Iranian Penal code treat prostitutes?
I was watching the TV coverage in which a representive of Suffolk police was speaking.It made me wonder how an Iranian police official would respond if the murders were happening in Iran.
Who do you think “sex workers” would feel safer with the Iranian or the British police?
| 13 December 2006, 7:59 pm |
It never ceases to amaze how depraved and retarded people like Chris can be in attempting to call attention to themselves. The moral equivalency test doesn’t work here, Chris. If you think it does, why don’t you emigrate to Iran to enjoy its freedoms.
| 13 December 2006, 8:03 pm |
As to the students, it seems to me that in such a ruthless police state, these people would have been bundled up and made to dissappear
Don’t worry, Chris. Soon, when the world’s media have turned away and forgotten about this conference, normal service will be resumed, and the cranes will be busy once more. Iranian students will no longer be in any position to threaten the development of Islamic democracy which promises us all so much in the future, as no doubt historians will record.
| 13 December 2006, 8:15 pm |
The Iranian president is quite a piece of work. He’s like some Ian Fleming villan; creepy, flamboyant and cartoonishly evil. Hosting a conference of neo-Nazis? It’s like he is revelling in his role as the biggest power in the “Axis of Evil.” He’s starting to make Hitler look reasonable.
What will future generations think of us if we ignore this madman till its too late? I thought we learned our lesson in the 1930’s.
| 13 December 2006, 8:21 pm |
Montag:
Must I be paid to write crap?
Are you judging from yourself again?
Chris Voidis
http://www.yioni.com/2006/12/history-of-future-middle-east.html…
| 13 December 2006, 8:23 pm |
I wonder if the UNGA will convene a special session to condemn this ugly spectacle and Ahmadinejad’s continued threats. Is the UN willing to sit by and watch history being violently bowdlerized and revised? After all, its own credibility and legitimacy are on the line: Wasn’t the shock of the Holocaust the direct force for the composition of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
On second thought, the answer is self-evident. Since this noble document serves as a moral base for the UN and its various agencies, to apply with meticulous selectivity and bias against Israel, no doubt the majority of the fair and decent members of the GA will consider this conference as doing their work for them.
As far as I see it, it is nothing but a more malignant outgrowth of the 2000 Durban conference. A logical derivative.
| 13 December 2006, 8:36 pm |
My my…what excellent arguments:
Gene:
Perhaps, Chris, the regime knows which students were involved in the protests and plans to respond to their actions in a less public manner.
Sure Gene, and perhaps Bush is part of a Zionist plot.
These are not arguments. These are just attempts to come back with something when in fact you have nothing…
Sobieski (eco-warrior):
I have no idea how they treat sex workers in Iran. It is not my field. I do happen to know that they do sexual re-assignment surgery. I was surprised…
krik:
What a wonderful argument! It reminds me of being a child in Canada, and being told by the rough kids at school: “Why don’t you go back where you came from you dirty Greek.”
I am sure you must have been a leader amongst such children in your time. Beat up any brown kids in Denmark?
Chris Voidis
| 13 December 2006, 8:40 pm |
Wasn’t the shock of the Holocaust the direct force for the composition of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
Hah! In 2006, before it closed down, the UN Commission on Human Rights had Sudan as a sitting member. So I think it’s safe to assume the UN will do nothing about the increasing belligerence from Iran and probably won’t do anything other than issue harsh words if Israel is attacked. The UN is a product of Europe and America, both of which have been showing weakness in the face of threats from the Muslim world. It’s logical to assume the UN will go the same route.
Israel, at least to Europe, is expendable in the long run. It may be to America as well, as I don’t think Americans are willing to see a lot of other American’s die in order to protect that far away tiny nation.
| 13 December 2006, 8:42 pm |
And why are ya’ll feeding such a blatantly clueless troll?
| 13 December 2006, 8:51 pm |
After the stunning success of the Iraqi invasion and occupation I personally cannot wait to do the same thing again to Iran.
| 13 December 2006, 8:51 pm |
Oh, and if you get tired of Chris’s political blather, go check out his *hot* poetry from one of his 6(to go with his various personalities?) blogs:
I lick my cigarillo as brandy
still lingers hot on my lipsa woman across from me
smokes with hurt passion
Wow. Keats would be proud.
| 13 December 2006, 8:53 pm |
I’ve been doing the same. Read the one about his mother, number 5. Then read his post about Texans in the airport, and realise she should have given him a clip around the ear a bit more often.
| 13 December 2006, 9:05 pm |
Montag and Rupert:
Wow! I suppose that when you run out of arguments you resort to name calling and teasing over someone’s poetry…
This is rather amusing. As for Keats, you’ve got to be joking. Is that all you’ve read?
By the way, that poem, The Dark City has been published and translated into a few languages. Obviously you are not literary critics.
The one about my ‘mother’ is from an old Jewish myth, but I won’t do you the favour of telling you which…your ignorance is illuminating…
And what Texans are you talking about, are you unable to read?
LOL
Chris Voidis
http://www.yioni.com/2006/12/history-of-future-middle-east.html…
| 13 December 2006, 9:10 pm |
The Dark City has been published and translated into a few languages.
heh. published = “in my blog”, translated = “greek”.
But whatever. Your a literary genius Chris. I’m just glad to sidetrack you so you can embarrass yourself in other areas other than politics.
| 13 December 2006, 9:12 pm |
Chris Voidis
They put prostitutes to death by stoning or beheading.
What a great advertisment for an ‘Islamic Democracy’.
| 13 December 2006, 9:14 pm |
Rupert:
actually, it hasn’t been translated into Greek.
By the way, what is your problem? Mommy issues? Attention deficit. Repressed sexual orientation. Lack of self esteem? I’m sure all of these can be taken care of. Seriously, one mustn’t let these things go on for too long…
Good luck friend…
Chris Voidis
http://www.yioni.com/2006/12/history-of-future-middle-east.html
| 13 December 2006, 9:16 pm |
I agree about the trollish essence of Mr. Voidis. Hell, even sonic doesn’t try to defend the regime in Iran. Ignore him.
| 13 December 2006, 9:19 pm |
“Bissli,
thank you for your constructive comment.”
It’s OK Chris, but it’s just occurred to me that I didn’t finish my comment. It should have been:
Chris, you’re an idiot. Now, fuck off.
| 13 December 2006, 9:24 pm |
Sobieski:
that’s terrible. I myself hoped that the moderate elements under Hatami would have been re-elected. He seemed to be going in the right direction.
Unfortunately, George Dubya Bush made sure Ahmedinejad was elected by meddling and telling the Iranians that they’d better not vote for Ahmedinejad put an end to their nuclear program or else. The Iranians, being both proud of their nationa and their nuclear program voted for you know who…
Hmmmm…this thing is slowly becoming surreal. What is the future of the Middle East. We also have to consider the fact that israel has confirmed it is a nuclear state, while Iran is close to acquiring the technology to be one…
Here is a peek:
http://www.yioni.com/2006/12/history-of-future-middle-east.html
Chris Voidis
| 13 December 2006, 9:26 pm |
Bissli:
how nice of you! I suppose you just added that so that we may applaud you intellectual stamina. You little pet!
| 13 December 2006, 9:29 pm |
an aunt siphons her attention away
the bride takes her eye from the sun’s glare
exhausted and twitching, I make for the surface
aching to breathe in fresh air
Just what the world needs now, another crap poet.
| 13 December 2006, 9:32 pm |
Herriea:
I suppose you are filling in for the crap critic…!
You are a funny one…
| 13 December 2006, 9:36 pm |
Chris
Do you like The Smiths?
| 13 December 2006, 9:49 pm |
Gene:
I have not defended the regime in Iran. In my posts I have made two observations:
1. Iran offers an Islamic Democratic alternative which no other country offers in the region.
2. Ahmedinejad’s Conference is a ruse to ruffle western and Israeli feathers and make government statements see ridiculous. He wants us to over-react.
Am I being and Iran supporter for saying that?
| 13 December 2006, 9:51 pm |
Well, you’re alright by me then. Nice to have you here.
| 13 December 2006, 9:51 pm |
chris
Unfortunately, George Dubya Bush made sure Ahmedinejad was elected by meddling and telling the Iranians that they’d better not vote for Ahmedinejad
Is George Bush responsible for global warming too?
| 13 December 2006, 9:52 pm |
Where’s SeanT? The thread is notably lacking a vain and swooning self-promoting self-publicist intellectual masturbator with an ego the size of the planet Uranus (or at least it is lacking one, like SeanT, who’s not completely full of shit and who isn’t a moronic apologist for tyrannies).
Moving onto serious matters, I wish I didn’t agree with Noga about the Tehran ‘conference’ being a natural follow-on from the disgraceful happenings in Durban five years ago. But I do agree.
Anyway no doubt Mr Moral Void will have made another 100 posts drawing attention to his ego and other banalities by the time this post is submitted, so I guess the real theme of this thread has been lost. All credit to the students in Iran, anyway.
| 13 December 2006, 9:53 pm |
1. Iran offers an Islamic Democratic alternative which no other country offers in the region.
Apparently, Chris is not familiar with the common map, which clearly shows Afghanistan right next door.
| 13 December 2006, 9:56 pm |
Voidis- You are either a genius strategist like Ahmedinejad privy to inside information or an apologist and fellow traveller for this despicable regime that calls upon White Supremacists,the KKK and other Holocaust deniers to justify its’ perverse ideology.
Well, which is it ?
| 13 December 2006, 10:04 pm |
Leonard he’s neither – he’s just a twat!
Chris yes its ‘terrible’ but there won’t be any reformers who will abolish the death penalty for adultery in the Islamic republic because of course the injunction comes from the Koran and the Hadith. To reform this would be to undermine the foundations of the Islamic Penal Code and the whole concept of the Islamic republic itself
| 13 December 2006, 10:06 pm |
Chris,
how many election candidates have to be disqualified from standing-often on fairly spurious grounds-before you admit that Iran is not a democracy?
How much do the media have to be censored before you admit Iran is not a democracy?
How long does the post of Supreme Ruler/islamic guide have to exist, with the right to overrule the elected President, before you admit that Iran is not even an ‘Islamic Democracy’?
I would agree that it isn’t the most oppressive-or even necessarily always the most irresponsible-state in either Central Asia or the Middle East. I would also agree that the USA’s approach to Iran-notably the inclusion in the Axis of Evil speech-has been extremely foolish and incompetent and unworthy of a superpower-for much of the time.
But to make out Iran is a democracy? Give over, please.
| 13 December 2006, 10:17 pm |
Sobieski:
please explain what a ‘twat’ is. Have you ever seen one? If by ‘twat’ you mean ‘cunt’, then I am proud to be one. I actually worship ‘cunts’. I find nothing disrespectful about them and I am certainly not offended by your remark. In fact, I am honoured.
Leonard:
I do play a lot of chess and I have spent many years studying the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict.
| 13 December 2006, 10:26 pm |
I do play a lot of chess and I have spent many years studying the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Gently steaming piles of quivering bollocks.
| 13 December 2006, 10:30 pm |
Venichka:
thank you for making the effort to speak to my argument with a thought out argument in return.
I agree with you that Iran is not a democracy in the way that we in the west are used to it being.
But I think that in Iran there are perhaps the seeds for a more liberal democracy, but many in the west, most notably the US and the UK have not been keen to cultivate and encourage them.
Instead, we have been clamouringfor a regime change and trying to isolate Tehran without ever giving thought to some of its just claims.
One example: The US, France, Germany and the UK supported Saddam’s murderous war against Iran in the 80’s. Why? Were vital western interests at stake? Did Iran threaten anybody? Other than lend help to it’s Shia brethren in Lebanon to fight for their lives against israeli aggression, where is the evidence of Iran having supported terror?
These are hard questions to which I have not seen adequate answers yet. Why do we not see the same enthusiasm for regime change in Saudi Arabia? It is arguably more repressive than Iran, yet it is a great US ally. Why is that?
| 13 December 2006, 10:33 pm |
I agree with Bissli, both times.
That’s an awfully thin article you’re hawking there Chris. Shorter than the usual “what I did on my summer vacation.”
If US students tried something like that, (i.e. lighting a fire near Mr. Bush) they probably would have been shot without being lined up.
Uhm, yes of course.
| 13 December 2006, 10:36 pm |
For Chris: I hope your disillusionment with Iran’s “democracy” will be less traumatic than Michel Foucault’s. Like you, he was quite passionate in his beliefs. But passion is to truth what sincerity is to poetry – bad (as you must know, being a poet and all).
http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2004/07/foucaults-enthusiasm-for-khomeini.html
| 13 December 2006, 10:39 pm |
I do play a lot of chess …
Many years ago I remember being beaten at chess by a slow, archaic CMOS processor with almost no RAM.
If you’re claiming to have thought processes as sophisticated as a pathetic hunk of silicon, then who am I to argue.
| 13 December 2006, 10:43 pm |
Chris,
Are you a Muslim?
| 13 December 2006, 10:44 pm |
where is the evidence of Iran having supported terror?
Er, didn’t Ahmadinejad and his fellow revolutionaries take some US diplomats hostage?
These are hard questions to which I have not seen adequate answers yet.
But there’s a simple answer at hand: you are an idiot.
| 13 December 2006, 10:49 pm |
Noga:
a very interesting article, thank you!
I don’t think that I have illusions about Iran’s democracy. In fact, I think I have a clearer vision of it than most people in the west. I am aware of its shortcomings and also of its possibilities. I just refuse to demand that all countries and peoples be on Western Time.
What has happened in Iran has happened to most nations after a revolution. To point out the early ‘reign of terror’ after the Iranian revolution is like pointing out the reign of terror soon after the French revolution.
I agree, these are dark moments. Yet, Iran has come a long way, is still in danger of sliding backwards, and the US would love to give it a push. Why?
And why are so many people in the US so uncritical about what their government is doing?
| 13 December 2006, 10:50 pm |
Josh Scholar:
obviously you can’t argue with such slow processors…or play chess…
| 13 December 2006, 10:52 pm |
why are so many people in the US so uncritical about what their government is doing?
Heh, Canadian moonbats will never let you down. In the end, it always boils down to their anti-American inferiority complex.
| 13 December 2006, 10:52 pm |
Afraid I have to agree with Voidis’ second point.
Ahamadinejad is deliberately trying to incite the US and/or Israel in attacking Iran’s nuclear sites. He figures that given the US military is throughly tied down in Iraq, that air strikes are the only action available and that a ground assault is out of the question. Ahamadinejad is betting that an aerial bombing campaign will at most only delay Iran’s A Bomb project by no more then 5 years at the maximum. (A pretty good bet given what Air Power has historically done & not done.) Since this foreign attack will cause Iranians to naturally rally behind the current regime and allow Ahamadinejad to discredit the opposition as traitors, the damage done to Iran’s nuclear project is a trade that favors the current regime.
Note: As the demonstrations show above the current Iranian Regime, which is scarcely democratic, given that the Iranian people can only choose between Fundamentalist Parties of varying degrees, is increasing unpopular with the Iranian people. Most Iranians do not want to waste money, let alone people in supporting groups like Hezbollah & the Iraqi Shiates. Iranians view themsevles as descendants of the ancient Persian Civilization and look down on the Arabs as a bunch of uncivilized, newly arrived Camel jockeys. Iraqis are especially hated because of the eight year long Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s in which at least 500,000 Iranians died. (The reverse is true on the Iraqi side, even among the Shias.) About the only popular thing the Iranian Govt. is doing now is its Nuclear Project. Most Iranians believe that Iran having Nukes is a good idea to prevent them from being Invaded, ah excuse Liberated, from their Oil, by the US or any other country such as oh say, India.
| 13 December 2006, 10:57 pm |
Montag:
Is that all you can come up with? You mean that the US is justified in its policy towards Iran for 26 years because of those hostages which were released without harm in the end?
Wow…
As for the idiot comment, Montag, I suppose that is all you can say when you have nothing to say…
| 13 December 2006, 11:02 pm |
You mean that the US is justified in its policy towards Iran
The Iranian regime has a proven record of subverting the international order. It began by ripping up the Vienna Convention, has continually proclaimed its commitment to exporting the Islamic revolution abroad, sponsors terrorism in its neighbours, and most recently promised to wipe Israel off the map.
For my own part, I wish the US policy was much firmer. Rubble doesn’t make trouble.
| 13 December 2006, 11:03 pm |
Montag:
of course it was the last sentence of my post that got stuck in your throat. all the rest went down easy…Illinois, huh…
| 13 December 2006, 11:03 pm |
If anybidy would like a slightly more nuanced analysis of Venezuela’s alliance with Iran one can be read here:
| 13 December 2006, 11:04 pm |
Having just read Voidis’s article on the same subject from his own website which is poorly written
and simply appears to be an apologia for the present Iranian regime in which Voidis shows his true colours and clearly identifies with Ahmedinejad’s proclamations when he himself appears to “question the mythology that has grown up surrounding the holocaust”. The qualification that he may be well- travelled around the Middle East may well be true, but he is no more a chess player than Josef Goebbels was. I think my description of him as a fellow-traveller of the Iranian regime was more accurate.
| 13 December 2006, 11:07 pm |
where is the evidence of Iran having supported terror?
oh please, Allah, let the Hellenist entity learn
Not likely, by the looks of its newspaper of record.
The governments of the West and those who shape its public opinion are, as a rule, extremely cautious in their criticism of Tel Aviv. Evidently this is not merely due to the legacy of the Holocaust. It is also attributable to the creation of an entire industry of ideological terrorism and to the exploitation of the Holocaust for political ends, which insults the memory of the victims.
Yep, those Jews, there they go again, insulting the memory of the Holocaust.
| 13 December 2006, 11:10 pm |
Montag:
I know, rubble doesn’t make trouble. This is a firm US and Israeli belief. Bin Laden thought the same as well…look at ground zero…
I suppose we should follow these bright examples.
| 13 December 2006, 11:12 pm |
Habibi,
What is the relative status of the Paper Kalithimeri in Greece ?
| 13 December 2006, 11:13 pm |
Favourite Smiths song?
Mine’s “Half a Person”
Sixteen, clumsy and shy
I went to London and I
I booked myself in at the Y … W.C.A.
I said : “I like it here – can I stay ?
| 13 December 2006, 11:15 pm |
Kathimerini is the equivalent of the New York Times in terms of “authority” – it is a “serious” paper – but leans to the right.
The left-leaning Greek press is even worse on these issues.
| 13 December 2006, 11:22 pm |
Habibi:
I don’t read many Greek newspapers, especially the one you quote from and in any case, I am not responsible for what is written there.
Leonard:
I do agree that the Holocaust, which I certainly believe happened, has and still is being used for political ends by many groups, including the US and Israeli governments.
As far as I am concerned, the fact that this aspect was looked at during the conference made it worthwhile. In the west, such talk is shunned and taboo. This is what I said in my article.
As for being a fellow traveller of the Iranian regime, you are totally mistaken. I think that Ahmedinejad knows the fine art of brinkmanship and how to play the west. I also do think that he is an excellent chess player, while Bush and Olmert are pretty dense in that are of international relations.
But when it comes down to it, I had hoped that Hatami would have won the elections because I thought that he offered more hope to bring Iran out of isolation. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Why did people choose a hardline president? This needs to be asked…
| 13 December 2006, 11:29 pm |
Well, stick around here and debate the answers.
And it would be nice if we could genuinely tone down to slagfest, as he might just have something interesting to say.
| 13 December 2006, 11:31 pm |
Voidis – What exactly do you mean by the term “mythology surrounding the holocaust” used in your website ?
And what makes the conference worthwhile when you have a selective audience of White supremacists like Duke, former leaders of the KKK, convicted holocaust deniers, and members of the Neturei Karta a tiny Hasidic group that believe that Israel is a blasphemy and should be destroyed because the Messiah hasn’t arrived, whereas a Palestinian from Nazareth who wants to tell them it happened is refused a visa ?
| 13 December 2006, 11:34 pm |
because the Messiah hasn’t arrived, whereas a Palestinian from Nazareth who wants to tell them it happened is refused a visa ?
Is the “Palestinian from Nazareth” perhaps…Jesus?
| 13 December 2006, 11:37 pm |
David T:
a lot of this slugfest reminds me of the days when I was at university, twenty years ago. It was a lot of fun and part of growing up, I suppose.
I do sencerely hope that some of the ‘heavy sluggers’ in here are in their early twenties or younger, because if they are older, then they have some serious growing up to do, not to mention getting out in the world and seeing things under different lights in order to gain perspective.
As for you anti-helleni entity post, I really did find it amusing, though put together a bit sloppy. I think that if you nuanced it better, made less radical and better researched, it might actually pop a vein in the brains of some very fanatical Greeks that think they really do have much in common with Socrates and Alexander the Great. I have fun with them and say things you wouldn’t believe to them. I’ve been called a Greek hater…!
In any case, it’s been fun. Thanks for attracting my attention to your site!
Chris Voidis
| 13 December 2006, 11:43 pm |
I do agree that the Holocaust, which I certainly believe happened, has and still is being used for political ends by many groups, including the US and Israeli governments.
Why shouldn’t it be? Oops. He’s gone.
| 13 December 2006, 11:45 pm |
well? are you going to answer Leonard’s questions or hide under a shroud of words and nonsense?
Voidis – What exactly do you mean by the term “mythology surrounding the holocaust” used in your website ?
And what makes the conference worthwhile when you have a selective audience of White supremacists like Duke, former leaders of the KKK, convicted holocaust deniers, and members of the Neturei Karta a tiny Hasidic group that believe that Israel is a blasphemy and should be destroyed because the Messiah hasn’t arrived, whereas a Palestinian from Nazareth who wants to tell them it happened is refused a visa ?
Posted by Leonard at December 13, 2006 11:31 PM
| 13 December 2006, 11:47 pm |
David T – Seasons Greetings. No, but he may well have been.
Actually I’ll refer you to the link provided by Linda Grant on the Engage website on a discussion of the same subject (effectively a newsnight report on the conference recorded by YouTUBE. .
| 13 December 2006, 11:49 pm |
Leonard:
the mythology surrounding the holocaust, in my mind, is that it is a unique event that has never before been commited.
There have been many holocausts in human history. From indigenous people around the planet to ethnic groups like the Armenians, the Jews, the Roma, specific groups like homosexuals and communists.
I don’t think that the fact that an attempt was made to wipe out Jews justifies the injustice that was visited upon the Palestinians. For many years I have heard that the Jews needed a place of their own. OK. Sure. But why should the Palestinians pay for what the Germans did to the Jews. If I am not mistaken, this was a question asked by Ahmedinejad.
I don’t think that Israel should be dismantled. I don’t think that the Jews of Israel should leave. But the injustice visited upon the Palestinians need to redressed. Until this day, from 1948, Israel has quadrupled in size, and has never made a just and equitable peace proposal to the Palestinians or the Syrians.
Does anybody seriously think that the Arabs will live with anything less than and equitable and just solution? They must be dreaming if they do.
These, to my mind, are the central issues. The issue of the Holocaust, and how it is invoked, has served to muddle the issues, and not to clarify them…
| 13 December 2006, 11:51 pm |
made less radical and better researched
Then it would have looked less convincing!
Good luck, and thanks for coming out to play.
| 13 December 2006, 11:57 pm |
Thanks for finally coming out Chris Voidis.
You have now shown your true colours – effectively echoing the repeated proclamations and stance of Pres. Ahmedinejad.
I think you are seriously flawed in your reasoning but I believe in free speech and respect your right to state your views. I don’t propose to lecture you on the holocaust.
| 13 December 2006, 11:59 pm |
“As to the students, it seems to me that in such a ruthless police state, these people would have been bundled up and made to dissappear, like in the good old days of the US supported Shah…”
Give it time. The regime has delayed a number of executions of opposition activists until after municipal elections in Tehran and Ahwaz. Expect the mass arrests and executions to start some time in the next fortnight.
| 14 December 2006, 12:02 am |
Does anyone else wish those students were chanting ‘down with’ rather than ‘death to’? Probably marks me as a big soft girls blouse but I never feel right backing people chanting for someones death.
| 14 December 2006, 12:09 am |
Does anyone else wish those students were chanting ‘down with’ rather than ‘death to’? Probably marks me as a big soft girls blouse but I never feel right backing people chanting for someones death.
I hear you, Jon. I fear the “death to…” chant has been so deeply ingrained in Iranians in recent decades that it’s hard for them to imagine any other kind of slogan, even against the regime which legitimizes it.
| 14 December 2006, 12:15 am |
Leonard,
I don’t need to be lectured on the Holocaust. As I said above, I don’t deny it or it’s horror. As well, I do not believe that Israel should or will be dismantled.
How does that echo Ahmedinejad’s beliefs?
But you have failed address the later half of my comment. Why are you having difficulty dealing with the injustice visited upon the Palestinians?
And what is this talk about my true colours? Where does that come in? What are your true colours?
| 14 December 2006, 12:19 am |
Does anyone else wish those students were chanting ‘down with’ rather than ‘death to’?
Good point. Maybe it’s cultural. Another prerequisite seems to be the willingness to burn stuff.
| 14 December 2006, 12:24 am |
Yep, as I said, some things never change: Gene sticks up the photo of Chavez and Ahmadinejad for the umpteenth time. Next up: a weary return of the photos of the serried ranks of Hez saluting! Are these things on a sort of rota?
| 14 December 2006, 12:30 am |
Benji, can you work out what kind of watch that is?
| 14 December 2006, 12:31 am |
Benji, can you work out what kind of watch that is?
| 14 December 2006, 12:31 am |
The BBC newsnight bit on the Iranian holocaust deniers conference is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPA4v4ECV3s
Paxo is good, also the interviews with the Iranians in the street, they show considerable courage and integrity, they deserve more than the oppressive theocracy that’s currently running Iran.
| 14 December 2006, 12:38 am |
Why are you having difficulty dealing with the injustice visited upon the Palestinians?
Sigh. Because you can’t help those who won’t help themselves.
Time and time again, the Arabs have been offered a deal that would see both sides have to compromise, but offer the chance for all to live in peace. Every time, the Arabs have either rejected it or been negotiating in bad faith. They have preferred to try destroying Israel but have repeatedly failed.
The latest example? What happened in Gaza after the Israelis withdrew last year? The Palestinians smashed up the economic resources that the Israelis had left behind, intact, and launched internecine warfare.
Frankly, if you think US foreign policy is harsh towards the Arabs, perhaps you need to understand that it’s a cultural trait. Americans have little time for self-absorbed losers who sit around moaning all the time about how unfortunate life is, instead of making the best of their situation and working to improve it. Perhaps that’s why they prefer, temperamentally, Israeli dynamism over Arab stagnation.
You might also like to ask yourself this: if Israel disappeared tomorrow, and the Arabs had Palestine all to themselves — what would they make of it? Would it be like Egypt, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia? I hope you see my point.
| 14 December 2006, 12:46 am |
Montag,
The peace that Israel has offered has always been the same: shut up and take what we give you. Well, the Palestinians will not do that. So Israel will continue to live in this kind of siege…oh well…
| 14 December 2006, 12:52 am |
The peace that Israel has offered has always been the same: shut up and take what we give you.
Wrong. It was originally the UN that offered the settlement, and the division of lands was as equitable as could be expected given the population distribution.
The Arab response? Invade Israel. And lose miserably.
At that point, yes, it’s customary to “shut up and take what is offered.” But the Arabs just never seem to learn, so their situation inevitably deteriorates.
(It must be easy, I would imagine, to sit in your armchair 6000 miles away and pat them on the back for saying “never surrender”.)
| 14 December 2006, 1:02 am |
montag,
why do even bother? isn’t it obvious that Voidis is even more stupid than sonic and Benjamin combined, with an equally faulty grasp of history
| 14 December 2006, 1:04 am |
Americans have little time for self-absorbed losers who sit around moaning all the time about how unfortunate life is, instead of making the best of their situation and working to improve it. Perhaps that’s why they prefer, temperamentally, Israeli dynamism over Arab stagnation.
Indeed. Well said, Sir. I heard they’re planning to build a 20 story apartment tower in the UAE that slowly rotates 360 degrees over several days on a giant ball bearing or something. That’s fucking awesome. Amazing what you can accomplish when your sole purpose for existing isn’t the destruction of the “Zionist entity”.
| 14 December 2006, 1:07 am |
montag:
I live right next door to them…it is you who sits in the armchair, regardless of how far awy, out of touch with reality.
Your American/Israeli attitude is certainly leading you to worse than last summer’s war and what is happening in Iraq…
| 14 December 2006, 1:22 am |
I live right next door to them…
And I have lived and worked in the Middle East, Egypt to be precise. I have pretended to be married, heard spine-tingling stories about the ‘73 war from members of the air force, had first-hand experience of police corruption, and been stoned out of an apartment by my neighbours — who at least didn’t ask me all the time for blow jobs like my neighbours in other parts of town. I have had punch ups with taxi drivers, been ripped off in grass deals, gone down the Nile on a felucca as a skinhead, eaten falafel that probably had albino cockroaches in it, and been advised to leave town on one very memorable occasion.
So fucking what, basically. And now I’m off to the pub. Good night.
| 14 December 2006, 1:27 am |
Your American/Israeli attitude is certainly leading you to worse than last summer’s war and what is happening in Iraq…
I think your side would be better off not messing with Israel, Chris. you always get the shitty end of the stick when you do. Maybe you’re a glutton for punishment. :D
| 14 December 2006, 1:53 am |
Can someone explain this fixation on Palestinian ‘injustice’? I mean, if the existence of Israel is unjust, then so is America and any country in the American hemisphere. Israel, by any historical measure, is more legitimate than any Muslim state.
The Arab grievance calendar only goes back so far, I guess.
| 14 December 2006, 1:54 am |
Boogski:
I don’t have a side in this. And no, I am not a Muslim…or a Christian
| 14 December 2006, 1:57 am |
Rupert:
It is the same kind of fixation Jews have with the injustice suffered by them during the Holocaust. If that is to be the standard, then 60 years is nothing. The Palestinians can look forward to remembering this for a long time…
| 14 December 2006, 2:30 am |
“The Palestinians can look forward to remembering this for a long time…”
It would be a great progress if Palestinians really remembered the events that led to their present plight, instead of contintually making up a mythical history that has very little resemblance to real verifiable events. The problem is, that remembering, for them, is not remembering but manufacturing memories. From one generation of refugees to the next, the narrative grows bigger, deeper, more terrible. It’s as though they don’t really believe in their own suffering. In order to keep believing, they have to escalate the horror, multiply the numbers, swell the injustice. It’s as though they are so jeallous of the Jews for having undergone a real Holocaust, that must be bettered by their own oceanic suffering. And since the material with which they have to work is pretty thin on evidence and truthfulness, they compensate by fantasizing their mega-suffering narratives: They are not even like the Jews. They suffer more than the Jews. I’ve heard it said.
| 14 December 2006, 2:34 am |
I don’t have a side in this. And no, I am not a Muslim…or a Christian
Well I think you’ve clearly taken a side, Chris. There are a few non-partisans here and I’m certainly capable of recognising one by their writings. You sir, are a partisan. Your posts reek of partisanship. It’s ok to be a partisan. Just don’t lie about it. Makes you look foolish.
| 14 December 2006, 2:34 am |
Well, you’re alright by me then. Nice to have you here.
Good to know Dave has his priorities straight….
| 14 December 2006, 2:51 am |
“It’s ok to be a partisan. Just don’t lie about it. Makes you look foolish.”
Lou Dobbs, of CNN, in a recent conversation with Charlie Rose:
Neutral and balanced? God forbid! (It’s not a direct quote. The original exchange was much more clever and incisive.)
But his meaning was clear enough: if you think you have a good grip on the truth of matters, you must stand by your position.
It’s not like partisanship, where your individual conscience is waived aside in deference to a political agenda.
| 14 December 2006, 3:10 am |
“I had hoped that Hatami would have won the elections because I thought that he offered more hope to bring Iran out of isolation. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Why did people choose a hardline president? This needs to be asked…”
Khatami didn’t run in the last election, because he wasn’t constitutionally eligible for a third term. Mustafa Mo’in was the main reformist candidate in 2005. And while I can’t pretend to know exactly why Ahmadinejad won, a good part of the reason was that he was a populist who tapped into public discontent with the corruption of the clerical establishment. What’s often forgotten is that, although Ahmadinejad is hard-line, he’s also the first Iranian president since the revolution who is not a clergyman.
| 14 December 2006, 3:20 am |
It’s not like partisanship, where your individual conscience is waived aside in deference to a political agenda.
But what if your individual conscience is consistent with a political agenda? Aren’t you still a partisan? For instance, I believe Israel has the right to defend Herself and retaliate when attacked. Does that make me a partisan? I think it does.
| 14 December 2006, 5:05 am |
Let’s get back to your Iranian hero Ahmadinejad, Chris.
Here’s what the BBC reports under the headline Iranian leader denies Holocaust: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has courted further controversy by explicitly calling the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry a “myth”.
“They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets,” he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm
Yet you continue to claim that “the President of Iran has never denied the Holocaust”! What part of the word “explicitly” don’t you understand?
Perhaps we ought to borrow your own words to ask: What purpose is being served by this blatant dishonesty?
| 14 December 2006, 5:34 am |
And while you’re at it, Chris. Tell the audience about the “mythology surrounding the Holocaust” again.
Hint: “the mythology surrounding the holocaust, in my mind, is that it is a unique event that has never before been commited.” is not an answer. That is in fact, bullshit. And quivering bollocks, too.
| 14 December 2006, 6:10 am |
Has Castro finally expired?
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/12/rumors_fly_of_castros_death.php
Spanish radio reporting he’s joined Pinochet.
| 14 December 2006, 6:25 am |
Let’s say the old shitbird did kick the bucket. I’d like to read an analysis of what’s next.
| 14 December 2006, 7:46 am |
I’d like to read an analysis of what’s next.
I bet you wouldn’t bother, if it was written by Chris. Unless he slipped it in your fortune cookie.
| 14 December 2006, 8:06 am |
Perused Google News for Castro. Nowt substantial there at present. Just stuff like this:
http://www.sabcnews.com/world/south_america/0,2172,140205,00.html
I don’t thnk the old boy has kicked the bucket yet, but I am sure Miami is clamouring.
| 14 December 2006, 9:12 am |
On the day (13.XII.2006) the Guardian published a leader lambasting the Teheran Holocaust Conference, it also ran a Rushbridger interview with a Terezin survivor. At first glance this may seem an exemplary moral stance to take: dismay at the damage holocaust denial does to Palestinian aspirations while at the same time providing a thoughtful account of one particular experience. However, with so many Muslim Brotherhood personnel crawling over the Guardian op-ed pages (they have virtually taken over cif – the al-ciphilate?) perhaps Rushbridger was playing to MB sensitivities by recycling the Terezin propaganda myth – a sort of Shoah-lite. While the Guardian may not be the Stuermer, it does leave one feeling slightly queasy.
| 14 December 2006, 9:29 am |
Indeed the Guardian did say all that, but you wouldn’t know it from HP’s one dimensional whining about a Steve Bell cartoon.
As for CiF etc, there are wide range of opinions expressed: the notion that its been taken over by Muslim Brotherhood types is complete nonsense. There is a full retinue of Eustonite types (CiF even helped launch the Euston Manifesto for crying out loud), plus Sunny (who’s hawking his own manifesto), plus Alan Mendoza from the Henry Jackson Society scribbles there occasionally (Christ, he’s got a manifesto too!), plus a few other Tories, plus the usual plethora of lefties and liberals who may not have signed a silly manifesto but are a long way from being supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood.
| 14 December 2006, 9:39 am |
Yes, quite, no, yes, but bollocks all the same – Benjamin does his best to maintain the myth of an impartial Guardian with an open-doors policy to a plethora of opinions of all possible hues. However, it is not nonsense to think that the Guardian has a great deal of time for the MB – a courtesy which it may not extend to other extremist organisations?
| 14 December 2006, 9:41 am |
“They suffer more than the Jews. I’ve heard it said.” I compare this attitude with some conversations I had in the 80’s with a leader of the youth wing of the ANC. He exclaimed that I as a Jew could never understand the suffering black people in SA were then undergoing. I told him that although I had not personally had that experience, my grandparents and family had died in the Holocaust. It became evident he had little or no information about the Holocaust so I gave a bit of history, without any attempt at one upmanship. At the end, he said quietly, Yes, I see the Jews have suffered much more. NOw, I know it was easier for him to say this as the Jewish suffering was not a direct threat to his narrative, unlike with the Arabs and Palestinians, but I still think back to this as a key encounter.
At a talk I went to a couple of years ago by the Palestinian Walid Shoebat, he said it was absolutely key to the resolution of the Israeli Palestinian issue to teach Palestinian children about the Holocaust. This Palestinian lawyer who was barred from coming to the Iran conference has the right idea, too.
| 14 December 2006, 9:47 am |
Benjamin does his best to maintain the myth of an impartial Guardian
Absolutely not. It is not an impartial paper. The Guardian is cente-left paper. I was just pointing out the facts as regards the CiF and op-ed.
| 14 December 2006, 10:21 am |
Why are people like Chris so incredibly angry with the Jews for having the chuutzpah to be the victims of genocide? Where do the Jews get off, he seems to be saying, in muscling in to claim the status of victim, which obviously belongs to far more deserving cases? It’s just not fair that the Jews get to be more persecuted than anyone else. Why can’t others have their turn?
| 14 December 2006, 10:26 am |
What is a twat?
Twenty-first century
Woman
Against
Theocracy
| 14 December 2006, 10:57 am |
In fact, I think I have a clearer vision of it than most people in the west.
There really is no beginning to your modesty.
P.
| 14 December 2006, 11:01 am |
This “Giyus” Love Supreme harps on and on about as if it is a snide barb which will immediately strike home: The bandying around of this word as if it were a household term among us Elders is meant to give the impression that LS has the inside track and has us in his sights.
Well it had zero resonance for me, and I suspect, most readers here- but finally after his umpteenth tedious repetition I got round to googling it. Thanks, LS- it looks like a handy gateway for resources. Not the slur you intend at all, actually.
| 14 December 2006, 11:51 am |
The moonbats at CiF also use it as a slur.
Red-Brown again, eh?
| 14 December 2006, 11:54 am |
To Mr Voidis
The most important thing about what you call the “Palestinians” is that here we have a name which has been manufactured since about 1967 oor 68.
Most people do not realize that Israel is dwarfed by about 600 to 1 in size in comparision to the Arab states. if you look at a map you will see Israel as a tiny speck surrounded by that huge land mass, on all sides.
It was right that the Jewish people were given some space for a Homeland in historic Palestine. The struggle of the Jewish people for a Homeland and for a return to Zion has been going on without interruption since the Roman genocides 2000 years ago.
And during all that time the Jewish people never gave up the hope of return to Zion.
They came back always with hope in their heart and were prepared to live alongside and indeed to help the impoverished Arabs, who did NOT call themselves “Palestinian”, but simply Arabs or Arabs of Southern Syria.
Then one main thing entered the equation. That was hatred of Jews, anti-Semitism, a good example being the notorious to be Nazi, Hajj Amin el Husseini.
You mention 1948 but the Arab armies of at least Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Jordan attacked the new state of Israel on the day AFTER it was founded.
That is something that this FascistLeft never talks about, they are ashamed to mention that simple fact of history.
You see, people like you, Mr Voidis, do not really like to discuss history, except you can get it from those Israel hating Jews like Morris or Sedev.
The main thing that we are now seeing is that Israels struggle for existence has always been against Islamic Jihadism. That is becoming clear to many, not least these wonderful and brave students in iran.
| 14 December 2006, 11:58 am |
Chris
YOU ARE AN IDIOT
FUCK OFF
Lupin
| 14 December 2006, 12:41 pm |
“The overwhelming majority of Iranians despise the regime. There are rebellious groups in every ethnic group and province in the country – Azeris, Kurds, Ahwazi Arabs, Baluchis, Turkmen and even Persians – that are actively working to destabilize the regime. Every day there are strikes of workers, women and students. Every few weeks there are reports of violent clashes between anti-regime groups and regime forces. Recently, oil pipelines were sabotaged in the oil-rich Khuzestan province in the south where the Ahwazi Arabs are systematically persecuted by the regime. Westerners who recently visited Iran claim that Israel operating alone could overthrow the regime by extending its assistance to these people.
“Thirdly, in his testimony in the Senate on Tuesday, Gates casually mentioned that Israel has nuclear weapons. In so doing, he unceremoniously removed four decades of ambiguity over Israel’s nuclear status. While his statement caused dismay in Jerusalem, perhaps Israel should see this as an opportunity.
“With the threat of nuclear destruction hanging over us, it makes sense to conduct a debate about an Israeli second strike. While such a discussion will not dissuade Iran’s fanatical leaders from attacking Israel with nuclear weapons, it could influence the Iranian nation to rise up against their leaders…”
Caroline B Glick: ‘Jews, Wake Up!’
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=jews_wake_up!&ns=CarolineBGlick&dt=12/10/2006&page=full&comments=true
| 14 December 2006, 1:26 pm |
“America Will Throw Israel to the Wolves”
How do you know?
It’s fashionable today to attribute to America any sort of mendacity, betrayal and what not. It’s true that there are Americans who don’t give a f*** about Israel (Carter, Baker, to name but two that were on the news recently). But Americans, in general, have a very highly developed sense of fair play and decency, and a simple clear way of observing events (simple, not simplistic!).
And, btw, Israel managed to win wars and repel assaults for a long time before America became involved in its defence. Everyone seems to forget that the Six Days War was won by the help of the French “Mirages”. That 1948 was fought with weapons made in Czechoslovakia. I daresay the very agile genius Israelis possess will come through, once again, if Baker and Carter have their way.
| 14 December 2006, 1:42 pm |
The injustice to the Palestinians and the basis for any long term settlement that satisfies the majority of both populations is a return of Israel to its 67 borders, the removal of the occupation forces and the settlements from the West Bank and the getting rid of that damned apartheid wall (look – if it looks like a land grab, smells like a Land grab it is a fecking land grab).
Much as I despise jihadism and islamic fundamentalism and despair at the ineptitude and malfesence of what can charitably be described as Palestinian ‘leadership’ there has to be movement from Israel – the wall and the settlements need to go.
HOWEVER, for this to happen the Palestinians need to start behaving like Adults (it would make a nice change) and there needs to emerge a genuine Palestinian statesman.
Israel also needs, in order to move, guarantees of its security.
Some possible ideas are:
Clearly a regional congress to thrash out a framework for all of this
A UN Force drawn from Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey to police the new Palestinian Republic till public bodies sort themselves out.
Forward deployed US troops in the Golan and Negev (make great training territory) (bit Tom Clancy that one but still)
A regional development fund from oil revenues to give microloans to boost economic development in the Arab world
And, as Republicans are so f8cking inept at everything, any peace in the region is gonna need a Democrat is the Whitehouse as they are the only ones with the balls and the brains to do it (the only hope the GOP has is to clone Reagan – the only Republican with any guts or vision I have seen in my lifetime)
| 14 December 2006, 2:12 pm |
Neil w.
The (pre-fence) solution you speak of was tabled by Clinton and accepted by Barak’s government in December 2001. The Palestinian response was a campaign of lynchings and suicide bombings. Plus, they have never indicated that such a solution would be acceptable to them at any time since then.
The question that presents itself to me is: Do the Palestinians really want their own state? And what kind of state? Do they really want a state on the entirety of Mandate Palestine? It appears to me that they have not answered this question. It appears to me that all their energy is focused on the destruction of Israel. Period. I don’t think many of them even think about the day after. When they’ll have to start taking responsibility for themselves.
There was a time, very briefly, after Oslo, that I assumed the Palestinian authority would be like pre-Israel Yishuv, with its de-facto government (The Jewish Agency), education system, social institutions, scientific centres, national symbols and relentless exertions on economic growth and development of a civil society. So that the UN 181 Resolution was only a rubber stamp on what was already a very viable polioty.
But no sooner was Oslo signed than Arafat declared a continued Jihad for Jerusalem (in a South African mosque) and suicide bombings became the new Palestinian weapon. Instead of building and preparing for statehood, the PA opted for anti-Israel incitement and flirting with Hamas.
And then, Camp David rejectionism.
So what do Palestinians want? Does it seem to you they want a state? Or just perpetauation of their self-endowed victim condition?
| 14 December 2006, 2:39 pm |
“Ahamadinejad is deliberately trying to incite the US and/or Israel in attacking Iran’s nuclear sites.”
Very possibly. The Iranian nukes are something of a purloined letter – more dangerous because of what they *might* do, and likely to become less powerful once shown. Look how underwhelmed the world was by the North Korean dud.
Despite the fact that it patently doesn’t exist and is probably the best part of a decade away, Ahmedinejad has got the entire West cacking its pants at the thought of the Islamic Bomb, and is using the situation to his advantage with the megalomaniacal skill of a Bond villian.
| 14 December 2006, 3:00 pm |
Noga
If my solution (or basket of ideas) sounds Clinton/Barak era thats because, if the Palestinians will step up, thats a reasonable place to start.
Alas, it is predicated on Palestinian leaders wanting a state and your question cut right to the heart of matters on the Palestian side of things.
Equally, in 2006 we can ask the same things as the Israelis – what do they want as a settlement? What are they prepared to do to make a lasting peace?
If the Hezz/IDF summer conflict has shown the Israelis anyhting is that fighting jihadists is harder then fighting Arab conscripts and that WMD’s aside there isn’t a military solution to their problems (there never was, but anyway).
A situation has to be engineered that takes the ground from under the jihadists feet and gives the mass of Palestinian opinion the chance to be moderate, for this to generate decent public institutions and the rule of law and to eventually sideline the extremists. Nothing does the latter like a bit of economic growth – hence the Palestinians need to be given the chance for that to happen – almost irrespective of how the extremists behave. The Isrealis need to play a longer, more strategic game then they are doing at present in order to engender Palestinian moderation (which was in good supply but Arafat ignored it and the Israelis squandered it)
The current situation isn’t sustainable for either Israel or the Palestinians.
I wonder if leaders on either side are prepared to be statesmen? Or just the grubby factionalists that they are at the moment?
| 14 December 2006, 3:09 pm |
Noga:
Does it seem to you they want a state?
Yes if you ask a Fatah member, no if you ask Hamas…….
I suspect regular Palestinians would just like to get on and find a job, raise their kids and not have to dodge IDF firepower or PA/Hamas etc gunmen and if a State can do that then they will want a state.
| 14 December 2006, 3:19 pm |
Male Nurse;
It’s an Islamist Bomb that worries the US and NATO countries – not an Islamic bomb. Those few letters make all the difference.
Personally I think Iran will get the bomb and as a consequence will have to behave itself. A possible policy option would be to say to Iran that if there is any use of fissionable material in a terrorist incident the UN and NATO will assume Iranian first use and consequences will follow.
We make Iran police the Jihadists and rein in the extreme right elements in the Iranian Government. And they will as well. Iranian Intelligence and the Revolutionary Guard will be our bitch. Too amusing for words – welcome to the Adults Club (AKA with Great Power comes Great Responsibility)
Neil W
| 14 December 2006, 3:35 pm |
And in other news, World Hunger and Poverty will be solved at the same time, and Squadrons of Flying Pigs will be spotted in the skys over Mecca.
| 14 December 2006, 3:37 pm |
Morgoth
Your solution is a mass grave so hush now.
N
| 14 December 2006, 5:14 pm |
Morgoth
Your solution is a mass grave.
Really? Cite please.
| 14 December 2006, 5:18 pm |
Morgoth
Lets say you have form when it comes to Muslims in general and the Israeli / Palestinian issue.
(Unless someone has time to do a Morgoth search)
I could be wrong but you do tend to have a ‘muslims are the problem’ answer to such things and tend to leave the impression your solutions would be….sub-optimal for said muslims.
So, prove me wrong, what do you think is a viable solution?? (or basket of ideas?)
| 14 December 2006, 5:24 pm |
“Really? Cite please.”
Morgoth genuinely thinks that if he bulldozes all the mosques in the UK and makes owning a Koran illegal, all British Muslims will shrug and immediately convert to Dawkinsian athiest fundamentalism. This is why computer programmers don’t become politicians.
| 14 December 2006, 5:52 pm |
Ant: Your slur on Israel is almost as bad as DinnerJacket’s. Unlike some other countries, one in particular that comes to mind, Israel has spoken truthfully when it has said that it does not want other countries’ soldiers to die in Israel’s wars.
| 14 December 2006, 5:59 pm |
Male Nurse
Thats your standard Rightist approach – if its dead it won’t be a problem…..whats the phrase earlier in the thread – if its rubble, it ain’t trouble or something. Classy.
| 14 December 2006, 6:05 pm |
(also a Leftist thing in the past……..has to be said)
N
| 14 December 2006, 6:17 pm |
David All, what are you talking about?
| 14 December 2006, 10:39 pm |
Lottie Continuous: The one particular country I had in mind was the one whoose Prime Minister proclaimed that his country had no need of American troops, only the proposed free military aid from the US: “Give us the tools & we will finish the job” were his words. Utter nonsense of course, this island country might hold out against their enemy, but without massive armies from other countries would never have defeated their enemy on their own. Fortunately the enemy and its principal ally were both idiotic enough to do this with their attacks on the Soviet Union & the United States.
(I realize that people from this particular country might say something about the Bloody Yanks being late to every war! Can understand that from their point of view!
| 14 December 2006, 10:43 pm |
Scott Free: DinnerJacket is like “some Ian Fleming villain”. The obvious soluttion is to send for Commander Bond with his License to Kill!
(007 music in the background!)
| 15 December 2006, 1:07 am |
David All,
I am tempted to say “Bases for Destroyers”, but we both know who got the better of that deal :)
Of course, Churchill tended to be in a subservient position to FDR for most of the war, even if his rhetoric was probably better.
I think you will find that the “free aid” came after WW2. Because of the neutrality acts “free aid” was actually paid for in hard-currency (and gold reserves), before the advent of lend-lease (which shortly will be paid off in full).
but never let it be said that Americans didn’t play a crucial role in WW2 and many Europeans are grateful for it (go to Paris and see how many Avenues/Metro stations are named after famous Americans, etc)
| 15 December 2006, 10:52 pm |
Thanks modernity: I am sorry I did go overboard with the “free” military aid, Britain did pay for what she recieved under Lend-Lease after the war when her economy recovered.
Did not know about the Parisan streets & Metro Stations named for Americans. Thank you for that info.
| 16 December 2006, 1:51 am |
David All,
No problem, I was part jesting, there was an american ship (who’s name escapes me) that went to collect British gold (as payment for war goods) from Southern Africa, I think, and it went down in the sea around 1939-40
this is good for Paris
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/destinations/europe/france/paris?v=print
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt_(Paris_Metro)
Okay, so not everyone calls them leftist, but the BBC News website coverage has been quite good. Every news story about the conference includes an unequivocal statement that it’s a fact that 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis.