Harry’s Place

Tony Greenstein is among the thickest people I’ve ever met. The last time he cropped up on this blog, so far as I recall, was in an early discussion about the antisemite Gilad Atzmon. Someone mentioned Greenstein’s opposition to Atzmon, so I pointed out that Greenstein is a crank of the first order who welcomed the Brighton bombing of 1984 and the attempted assassination of the Prime Minister. Greenstein then posted an indignant comment here that confirmed my recollection (the indignation was on account of my suggesting there was anything wrong with his position on the issue). He then insulted another commenter who had referred to the notion of Jewish “self-hatred” (which is not a term I ever use, as I consider it illegitimate to invoke psychological explanations for political opinions). Greenstein claimed that “self-hatred” was a concept first used by the Nazis against their domestic opponents. He was talking rubbish, of course: the term certainly dates from before WW1, and was popularised (though not coined) by the Jewish philosopher Theodor Lessing in his book Der jüdische Selbsthaß. (Lessing was murdered by the Nazis in 1933.) When I pointed out Greenstein’s error on this site, he responded by sending me numerous emails comprising several thousand words of semi-literate abuse, and judging by this post he still hasn’t composed himself.

Last time I checked, it was still showing at St Augustine’s. No, I’m not going.

Mikey,

Wow! You sure studied the issue. Lots of interesting facts. Great job!

Not meaning to hurt Mikey’s no doubt overweaning longing for reassurrance and cripling self-doubt, but in depth research isn’t always necessary when combating such poisonous arguments. I do not have a detailed knowledge of the AI issue; what I do have is a wide knowledge of the standard arguments used against Israel. They really are not difficult to combat.

Mikey,

Good job.

alec wrote:

but in depth research isn’t always necessary when combating such poisonous arguments.

on the contrary, I found that some people treat Lenni Brenner as if he is a rarefied, scholarly expert on this topic, whereas it is nearer the truth to say that he’s a political crank with an axe to grind, so under those circumstances Mikey’s right to demolish Greenstein and Brenner’s utterances with history, logic and reason.

admiration for Brenner’s runs fairly far and wide on the far Left, noticeably among the SWP, etc and their historical misconceptions of period and outright lies need to be stopped dead in their tracks

So fascinating a topic that the first comment is by Pope Ollie.

‘Night, all.

Mr Phillips. We don’t blame you for being an anti-semite. We know that you are only motivated by concern for a just peace in the Middle East.

Tony Greenstein is a notorious radical left-wing anti-Zionist demagogue who is happy to play fast and loose with the facts, if it promotes his ideological cause

Shocking news. Is one supposed to get worked up about all this? Notorious? Is Mr. Greenstein a demagogue and notorious only in his own home, one wonders? Because very few have heard of him.

Now now, Benji, don’t go pricking the bubble. This sort of hyperminuscularia is all the HP Saucers have got to get their rocks off about nowadays.

You may actually have a point there Benjamin. Greenstein did manage to obtain 188 votes out of a possible 68,000 when he stood as a candidate at the last general election. A clear indication of his massive popularity.

Blimey, the Greens did well in that seat.

Tony Greenstein - the Tommy Cooper of the anti-zionist lobby !

Well done Mikey. I see as well that the ‘chronically bored with HP’ regulars are here yet again to remind anyone with a brain that they stand for nothing while proving that HP obviously doesn’t bore them at all.

Mr. Left, but not antizionist

I approach HP with the crooked smile and twinkling eyes of someone dryly amused by proceedings.

You wish, Benji. Your fanatical obsession with HP is well documented.

HP is very important to you, which is why you come here every day to make predictable comments.

The most hackneyed commentor on the web.

Ah, the irony. That’s the great thing about HP: there’s irony in bucketloads.

that’s the second time Lapid has invoked WW2 in relation to the OT: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/05/23/israel040523.html

I’m afraid I may have worked Tony Greestein up enough for him to post in the Harry’s Place Comments Box. We had a sharp exchange on the UKLN a few days ago on the delightful decision of the PSC to indulge in little snide anti-Semitism on Holocaust Memorial weekend. I mentioned Harry’s Place at one point. Unfortunately I was unable to supply the references disproving the outrageous claim that the ‘Zionists’ were themselves guilty of the Shoah. I’m very grateful to you for doing this.

Benjamin, Greenstein is well known on the left (which I suppose counts for ‘hardly anybody’), largely for the reasons that Oliver Kamm cites. Tobias Abse in a recent issue of New Interventions called him one of the most distrusted people on the left (there is strong competition), and the Alliance for Workers’ Libery have had, when needed, a good time in poking fun at him. I have had a variety of terms for him, the most recent being ‘bilious old grunter’.

This probably the place to find an answer to my query on the Hamas thread, so I repeat it here:
I googled One Cow in Palestine’s nickname to see what this pointedly attention- seeking name was about, and it comes up on sites such as Neturei Karta and this one:http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm
They cite a quote:
“One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland” ….Izaak Greenbaum

If the other poisonous lies and distortions on the neturei karta etc sites are anything to go by, this quote is probably in that category- anyone know anything more? What it does confirm is where commenter Onecow is coming from.

Ah yes, the Alliance for Workers Liberty. Could their membership fill a pub?

Benjamin, do you mean the AWL ever leave the pub?

If you search for Ytzhak Greenbaum, cow, Jewish Agency in Hebrew (יצחק גרינבאום סוכנות היהודית פרה) in Google you get only one relevant link.

http://sf.tapuz.co.il/shirshur-570-90599318.htm

It is an open discussion site (Tapuz) in which a neonazi called Anatoliu (אנטוליו) copy pastes and then “discusses” the “Jewish-Nazi alliance”. (which you can see, because he took the time to translate from English the same paragraphs that are posted all over neonazi places.

He says that he is quoting from a book by Beit Tzvi “that worked all his life in the Jewish Agency”. That is it. No actual quotes. And he signs with an emoticon that looks like a Hitler-Smile with a fringe.

You couldn’t have a line like this without any more discussions in Hebrew. All points to be a fabricated quote.

Israeli Arabs know how to write in Hebrew. So if the quote had really originated in a Jewish Agency archive you could bet your life that there would be more links and discussions in Hebrew.

I’m puzzled as to why these dogged expectations that the play should be historically accurate are so wide-spread.

When it comes to ‘Perdition’, the only people who conveniently forget that works of art aren’t meant to be 100% accurate are the Zionist community. Or their fellow travellers.

The play is a work of fiction. Sure it’s based on fact, but by no means loosely. From all accounts, there does undeniably appear to be a broadly close following of the original court case that the play is based on. But considerable dramatic license has been taken. There’s no denying that.

Remember the play doesn’t purport to be a verbatim performance of original court transcripts. Neither ‘Perdition’, the playwright or those putting on performances of the play have ever tried to pretend otherwise.

It it were, we would of course have quite reasonable and substantive grounds to expect - particularly given the sensitive subject matter - meticulous accuracy, but we don’t.

In blurring and merging the lines between fact and fiction about historically important holocaust events, Jim Allen has left us an interesting legacy, one that will surely be a hot-bed of debate.

Ah yes, the Alliance for Workers Liberty. Could their membership fill a pub?

Yes I could. And I like filling pubs.

(BTW, did you know that between 1939 and 1941 the CPGB was objectively fascist because it opposed war with Nazi Germany? I know that. And I never stop letting people know that I know that.)

Tam

The point about Perdition is this.

Let’s say that somebody wrote a play about the O.J.Simpson trial, in which O.J.Simpson is encouraged to murder his ex-wife by prominent civil rights leaders, who then cover up for him and secure his acquittal. Imagine that the person who wrote the play was involved in far right politics, and based his play on a book about the O.J.Simpson trial, written by somebody else on the far right.

Then imagine that a member of a far right political group decided to stage the O.J.Simpson play on - say - Martin Luther King Day, and demanded that the event was listed on the Martin Luther King Day programme of events.

Imagine also that, when it was suggested that this was improper, it responded that it was staging the play because it felt that it was important for black people to face up to the responsibility of the black civil rights movement for crime, and that it also felt that this event was a very important part of celebrating the legacy of Martin Luther King.

Do you see?

The Play Perdition is not really about the Kasztner case. That is just used as a backdrop. To quote Jim Allen from Time Out January 21 1987, he argued that “privileged Jewish leaders collaborated in the extermination of their own kind in order to help bring about a Zionist State, Israel.” This is what the play is really about and this is why opponents of the play took so much offence. No one has a problem discussing the Kasztner case itself. It is one individual. Motti Lerner wrote a play in Israel that was staged in Tel Aviv in 1985 and then made into a minis series in 1994 for Israeli State television all about the Kasztner case. In that dramatization – you have people calling Kasztner a murderer etc from the gallery of the court room. No one suggests that the issues should not be discussed and all plays of the genre “faction” use dramatic license, but the users should have some form of responsibility with that.

The Kasztner case was not about arguing that Zionists positively desired the slaughter of Jews to bring about the State of Israel. That is what Perdition was about and that is why people object.

Do not get me wrong, I am not arguing for censorship. I am in favour of a free and open state and press. For that reason whilst I am in favour of freedom of speech, I am also in favour of people using that freedom to correct the lies and distortions in the play and from supporters of the play.

It would be more effective to stage a play about Martin Luther King Jr on MLK Day– the real Martin Luther King.

However, why bother? MLK Day is becoming a dead letter in the States, just as Compulsory Selective Sorrow Day (aka Holocaust Memorial) is a non-starter in Britain. The British don’t see why what one particular set of wartime atrocities, committed by the side we were fighting 60 or 70 years ago, means that we have to go into penitential mourning every year by order of the government.

Isn’t your actual point that Holocaust Memorial Day should be an occasion for rejoicing and general celebration, WJ?

Saw the movie and don’t remember any of this stuff – just Jude Law pretending a 1930s gangster.

haha not the ROAD to Perdition !

“the only people who conveniently forget that works of art aren’t meant to be 100% accurate are the Zionist community.”

If I find out that “Fiddler On The Roof” isn’t 100% historically accurate, I’ll be devastated.

“correct the lies and distortions in the play”

Yes, it’s important not to allow prejudice to shape works of fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1ZNEjEarw

zzzzzzzzzzzzz … been hearing this rubbish from the SWP for years.

The Arab world’s myth of the holocaust typically seems to take three forms:

- the holocaust didn’t happen,

- the Jews did it to themselves, and

- if only brother Adolf had finished the job.

Jim Allen’s hopeless scribblings were designed to promote the second point: “the Zionist knife within the Nazi fist”. Nice metaphor, shame about the facts not providing any support as Mikey has pointed out.

The allegation is in fact so bizarre that I wonder if it’s made to cover not only for the Palestinian leader, Haj Amin Al Husseini’s, own war record (Husseini was resident in Berlin throughout the war, among other things, recruiting Muslim SS units and planning death camps for Palestine), but also for the extent of his own responsibility for the Palestinian naqba.

As slogans go, “The anti-zionist knife within the nazi fist” would at least be accurate. And thinking back to the Netura Karta’s presence at Ahmedinejad’s recent neo-nazi congress, it might even work for them too.

Just to balance the comments about Husseini, see this also from Ha’Aretz - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/816506.html

Holocaust researcher asks Yad Vashem to recognize first Arab Righteous Gentile

By Amiram Barkat

Khaled Abd al-Wahab, a well-to-do Tunisian farmer who died in 1997, is the first Arab to be named as a candidate for a Righteous Gentile award from Yad Vashem. The request to award him such recognition was submitted by Dr. Robert Satloff, an American Jewish expert on Arab and Islamic politics, following his research on Arabs who saved Jews during the Holocaust. Yad Vashem officials declined to speculate on the chances of the request being approved, but did note that it meets all the formal requirements, at the heart of which is testimony given before her death by a Jewish woman who was saved by al-Wahab.

In an interview with Haaretz, Satloff said he hopes that his research will help break the “conspiracy of silence” in the Arab world surrounding the rescue of Jews during the Holocaust. Satloff, a Middle East expert and the executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, started his research in 2001, following the attack on the World Trade Center. “The attacks prompted me to decided to combat Holocaust denial in the Arab world, because in my opinion, this is a primary source of friction between the West and Islam.”

I think you’re missing the point.

If Luniversal did write and put on a play on the “real Martin Luther King” on MLK Day, what would your reaction to that be?

And if you don’t know what he means by the “real Martin Luther King”, try googling that phrase.

If Luniversal then said

“Well, it is just a play, and although it might not be 100% historically accurate, it is based on the truth. And anyhow, it raises some important issues about the propensity of black people to promiscuity and sexual misconduct, and also the fact that MLK was the front man for international communist conspiracy designed to destroy white society in America, and now, 40 years on, we can see the damage that the Civil Rights movement did to American society. So it is important for us to commemorate MLK Day by staging this important play, which dares to tell the truth about the Civil Rights movement.”

what would you say?

It was instructive to see Brenner’s apologists shrug off this inconvenient news from last spring.

(the above was to The Male Nurse)

Somebody suggested to me a couple of days ago that the promotion of Perdition and the “The Zionists conspired with the Nazis to Cause the Holocaust” lie, was inspired by the Iranian Holocaust conference.

My guess is that it was. The extreme left can’t quite get away with the Holocaust revisionism stuff that is prevalent on the far green and far right. But give them time. This is where people like Atzmon are, at the moment, and we know that when the likes of Greenstein - or even the nice, inoffensive, line-towing Mike Rosen - object, they’re told to fuck off, and consider where the priorities lie.

David, a real life MLK day celebration. At least those responsible have apologised rather than try to contextualise it.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=state&id=4969610

“Pictures posted on Facebook.com showed partygoers wearing afro wigs and fake gold and silver teeth. One photo showed students “mocking how African-Americans do step shows,” Elder said. In another picture, a student is dressed as Aunt Jemima and carries a gun.”

Martin Luther King’s tireless opposition to the Vietnam War would, of course, have to be highlighted in any such play. Then we could read across from that to his likely reaction to the invasion of Iraq.

Yes, but in Luniversals version of the play, MLK would be played by Nick Griffin, blacked up, hunting rallies for white women with with to miscegenate.

So I think that lesson would be lost.

Jim Allen did in fact harbour traditional anti-semitic views. I’ve heard it said in Manchester that Allen had a problem with Jews and subscirbed to the anti-semitic theory of powerful Jewish landlords exploiting the masses. And this came from an old IMG member who is certainly not sympathetic to zionism ! Great post Mikey !

Gene,

You have a fair point. In fact if you would like to see who really was collaborating with the Nazis, I bring to your attention the following document. I specifically bring to your attention the letter on pages 24 and 25 of 25 from The Grand Mufti to the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Hungary in 1943.

In relation to that letter, what I find quite amusing is that it was submitted to the United Nations by Nation Associates. That was clearly in the days when Nation Associates was stil a credible organisation….

David t: “Jews have wanted to return to their homeland for centuries.”

The desire to return to Zion was a spiritual concept deeply rooted in Jewish theology, always linked to the concept of a Messiah redeeming all the nations of the world, who will also “return” (as a metaphor for the victory of the Lord Yahweh).

Zionism: is a white colonialist movement that manipulated this Jewish theocratic concept in the service of European imperial conquest of the Middle East.

Zionism introduced modern theocratic fundamentalism to the Arab world. Like its modern Islamist cousin ideology, Zionism is also a modern distortion of the original religious scriptures.

And David t: had it not been for the Holocaust and anti Semitism, millions of young Jewish people would not have flocked to Palestine in order to fight and die for this Zionist Jihad.

Mikey, your excellent post on TG’s demagoguery brought back distant memories.

Way back in the late 70s my girlfriend and I arrived at the Brighton Resource Centre (the old one, eventually burned down by neo-Nazis) to help organise an anti-fascist event. On arrival we were confronted by the sight of an unprepossessing individual in a moth-eaten pullover (guess who?) haranguing a 14-year old schoolgirl, also a volunteer organiser, for having the temerity to wear a pro-Israel badge. The schoolgirl, who had been reduced to a distressed state, was led away by my girlfriend who commented in a stage whisper: “don’t mind Tony, he’s just an arsehole”. This subsequently became something of a catch-phrase amongst Brighton anti-fascists.

Zionism is just another nationalism.

Unlike its “cousin”, Islamism it is compatable with democracy and gender equality, and has extremely limited aims.

I’d prefer any mild nationalism, for example, to a theocratic apocalyptic millenialism

As Greenstein said of his Socialist Unity candidature for Brighton Pavilion in the 2005 General Election:

Q: What kind of vote are you expecting on May 5th?

A. 500 or 1%

It didn’t quite turn out that way.

Sorry, my mistake: the Socialist Unity network was the organ through which he ventured this prediction. Greenstein’s campaign was actually the Alliance for Green Socialism, and most impressive it was too.

Really, don’t delete this racist. I don’t want people to be in any doubt as to his politics.

Uri (if that is your real name which I doubt),

With respect, you are talking nonsense. If you would like to see a rabbinical interpretation of the Jewish religious view is, I suggest you read the following book available free on line. I suspect that you will not bother and I also suspect that you do not have much grounding, if any, in Jewish theological matters.

You state “Zionism: is a white colonialist movement.” This ignores all the sephardic Jews who would not call themselves “white colonialist” that emigrated to Palestine and now Israel from countries such as Yemen, Iraq, Iran, etc etc.

You state “Zionism introduced modern theocratic fundamentalism to the Arab world.” This completely ignores the fatc that the early Zionist pioneers were not religious. David Ben-Gurion said “We will know we have become a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew.” That sort of comment is hardly the comment of someone who wants a theocratic state.

Your comment that had it not been for antisemtism etc that there would not have been such significant immigration to Palestine is undoubtedly correct - but what does it prove? If it wasn’t for the behaviour of Tsars there would not have been Russian Revolutions in 1905 and 1917. If it was not for the fact that woman were not treated equally to men, the United Kingdom would not have had the Suffragettes. So what?

Quite frankly your use of the absurd term “Zionist Jihad” shows how little you understand.

I think that it’s absurd to define the politics of David Ben-Gurion in secular, rational or liberal terms. He was a racist towards the Arab workers peasants and insisted on sacking all Arabs from Zionist enterprises. He was always fond of using and distorting religious concepts in his struggle to conquer Palestine from its native population.

And David t: Hamas is as nationalist as Netanyahu. In the mean time you go on funning the flames of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with your pseudo-religious dogmas that you never question. No wonder, young Jews from all the corners of the world are being lured to go and fight for a colonial totalitarian ideology. No one is going to peacefully resolve the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict until individuals on both sides start questioning dogmatic concepts. When they do just that, we may be able to move towards a democratic inclusive state and society in Palestine.

Mikey,

“You state “Zionism: is a white colonialist movement.” This ignores all the sephardic Jews who would not call themselves “white colonialist” that emigrated to Palestine and now Israel from countries such as Yemen, Iraq, Iran, etc etc.”

True, but don’t forget that there were Jews from the Middle East (Yemenite Jews, for example) that also set up communities in “Palestine” before the “white” Ashkenazim Jews came there as “colonizers.”

Jews from all over were always migrating in small numbers to Eretz Yisrael throughout the centuries, especially orthodox Jews.

Uri,

“a colonial totalitarian ideology”!! Now you are making me laugh. Not only do you lack an understanding of both Judaism and Zionism but you are also clueless about totalitarianism.

Is there anything you know anything about?

I suggest you resist the tempatation to continue writing posts on any of these subjects, you will only further expose your ignorance.

Shriber, you are of course correct.

The one thing that really did surprise me was quite how multi-ethnic Israel was. I mean, I’d be walking down the street and see a white looking guy with a black girlfriend, like you would in London, and then you’d think - “hang on - she’s probably from an ethiopian family”

Or you’d be in a hotel, and there would be loads or dark skinned people, and some would be muslim and others jews, and the only way you could tell them apart was that some of the women were wearing hijabs and some of the men were wearing skull caps.

I think that was one of the things that surprised me most about the place.

“Hamas is as nationalist as Netanyahu”

Er. Netanyahu is pretty right wing, but do you have any evidence that he believes that:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Jews fight the Moslems (killing the Moslems), when the Moslemwill hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Jew, O Uri, there is a Moslem behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Moslems.”

“”We will know we have become a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew.”"

“We will know we have become a normal country when Catholic thieves and Catholic prostitutes conduct their business in Gaelic.”

I dunno what Netanyahu “believes”, but I know what he’s been responsible for while in Government.

Colonial means: Illegal settlement on lands that have been violently stolen from the Palestinians. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinian town and villages and deportations. Shale I go on?

Totalitarian means: Making colonial decisions by force, without asking for the consent the Palestinian population.

Mickey, I think you should start thinking rather than piling on stupid insults.

Oh dear Uri, you just don’t know when to give in do you?

Let us ignore your flawed definiations of colonialism and totalitarianism as anyone who understands anything about these concepts will know you are talking utter garbage -

So moving rapidly on

“Illegal settlement on lands that have been violently stolen from the Palestinians.” The State of Israel was created by the United Nations - it was not “Violently stolen” or created by “illegal” means. You just cannot acccept it and that is why you want the destruction of the State of Israel. Now don’t start talking to me about the West Bank because you fail to accept even Tel-Aviv as part of a State of Israel.

“Making colonial decisions by force.” Since when has the United Nations that created the State beeen a colonoial body?

I was beginning to think that Greenstein was at the limit with the amount of his errors, but you are making Greenstein look a genius and that takes some doing I tell you.

Mickey, you are obviously a bigot who doesn’t care about displacing another ethnic group from their homes through violence, as long as it fits your militant agenda.
Debating with you is as useful as debating with the BNP.

Yes Uri, or whatever your real name is - you fail to accept anything I say. You are not interested in historical truth - so feel free to leave this thread. You will not be missed. Bye!

Oh, one last thing Mickey: you keep implying that Uri Cohen is not my real name.
Is it because your totalitarian notion of Judaism can not tolerate the fact that a Jewish man like myself can disagree with Zionist ideology? This is really my final lesson for you today.

I thought you had gone. But oh no - there are a number of Jews who disagree with Zionist ideology - Tony Greenstein is one of them - But quite frankly they don’t use terms like you do “Lord Yahweh”??? It is phrases like that that suggest to me that you have not got a clue what you are talking about.

I can spot fakes likes you a mile off.

I’m glad that was your last thing - Bye!

bill wrote:
David, a real life MLK day celebration. At least those responsible have apologised rather than try to contextualise it.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=state&id=4969610

We’ve only got 21 years to wait until we can read the FBI files on Dr King which were sealed shortly before he was given the unique accolade of a Federal public holiday. (Washington and Lincoln get lumped together on “Presidents’ Day”.)

Meanwhile we can pass the time reading encomiums such as this one by Marcus Epstein:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html

“I have the reservations you have, but here the perception of too many people is based on an image, not reality. Indeed, to them the perception is reality.” (Pres. Ronald Reagan, to a governor having conniptions about King’s canonisation)

As the newspaperman said in one of the cowboy movies the Gipper wasn’t in: When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Indeed, the Reverend became so legendary that today’s most prominent negro huckster, Je$$e Jack$on, shot to fame by claiming he’d cradled the assassinated King as the Blessed Martin lay a-dying. In fact Je$$e wasn’t there, but he rushed to the scene and smeared his shirt in King’s blood. Kind of a quasi-religious rite of self-consecration, which launched him on a longer and more lucrative career than the previous Good Shepherd of the African Americans. Seems nobody thinks it’s worth wasting good lead on Je$$e!

Ah such invective, so few little facts, not least from our aristocratic banker Kamm. As for thick, well I’m sure he’s an expert in such things.

As for Mikey’s ‘guest post’ (is he that special that he has to be a guest?):

Yes in some quarters I’m no doubt a ‘notorious radical left-wing anti-Zionist demagogue’. If such quarters include the racist warmongers of Harry’s Place then that is an added compliment.

i. Brenner’s research is his own, not from Stalinist sources. If he quotes Klaus Polkehn it’s because the latter’s article, which if I remember correctly appeared in History Today around 1980, regarding the trip to Palestine of the head of the Jewish Office of the SS, Count Mildenstein, was courtesy of the Labour Zionist Hagannah. of course mere facts like that don’t get a look in at Mickey’s when ad hominem attacks and lies are so much more interesting.

ii. I’m aware of when the Kastner trial started, who was accusing who etc. But as in many libel trials, e.g. Irving v Penguin, the accuser becomes the accused and so it was in the Kastner trial. The Attorney General took over the case personally and asked whether all Zionists are guilty of collaboration because it was Zionist policy to select the few, the Zionist elite, out of the many.

iii. The Supreme Court overturned the lower court decision, by 3-2, BUT upheld the facts found by the lower court and also the finding that Kastner had collaborated by seeking to exonerate Nazi SS war criminals, something Mickey finds perfectly ok and acceptable - not just Becher, but Krumey and Wisliceny and also I understand another 4.

iv. Dobkin may have testfied that Kastner had no authority to testify on behalf of the Jewish Agency, but that does mean it is true. Fact is that the Israeli State, fully aware of what Kastner did, had at no time prosecuted him for this act. On the contrary Mapai, Israeli Labour Party, put him high on the list for the next Knesset elections before the trial.

v. Kastner wasn’t at Nuremburg other than to help get SS war criminals avoid the gallows. The Americans complained about this Zionist official whose only interest seemed to be in exonerating such criminals. And why if it was all kosher did Kastner not admit from the start what he was doing? And if he was at Nuremburg as an aide to the Americans, presumably he was there as a representative of the Jewish Agency? In what other capacity would he have been there?

vi. No the allegations in Perdition were not made by Vrba. Nor did I say they were. But Perdition covers the same ground and therefore presumably, by the same guilt by association techniques loved by HP, he is also an anti-Semite! Vrba blamed Kastner for far more than not publicing Auschwitz but for covering up, suppressing the news, doing a deal in exchange for help in rounding up and pacifying the Jews of Hungary.

vii. Vrba was indeed a non-person in Israel, where he briefly settled before making his way, via the London Medical Research Council to a professorship in Canada. His book, ‘I Escaped from Auschwitz’ was not translated into Hebrew, the Auschwitz Protocols which he and Wetzler had provided the material for, concerning the whereabouts of Auschwitz and its layout etc. were not translated at Yad Vashem into English or Hebrew and were virtually hidden away from all but the most persistent and knowledgeable of academics. Likewise Hannah Arendt’s Eichmann in Jerusalem was also not translated for years into Hebrew. When Arendt wrote ‘Eichmann in Jerusalem’ she was subject to bitter attack by an Israeli Professor at Oxford. Vrba leapt to her defence against this forerunner of Harry’s Place propaganda.

viii. The full story of the attack on Vrba by the Zionists’ official historians of Yad Vashem, Bauer et al. is told in the remarkable little book by Ruth Linn, herself a Professor at Haifa University, ‘ESCAPING AUSCHWITZ - A Culture of Forgetting’ which I reviewed earlier this year for Tribune.

ix. In fact Bauer and co. after many attacks on Vrba, whose name was wholly unknown in Israel to all except a few experts in the area, e.g. the fact that he was the 2nd and 3rd Jewish escapee with Alfred Wetzler is not to be found in the normal school syllabus on the Holocaust, realised that their attacks had rebounded. But Bauer called Vrba many other things besides the comment Mickey quotes.

x. It is asserted that I have nothing to say about Zionists who fought the Nazis. Not true. I am not a biological determinist. Zionists, given the right set of circumstances, will of course fight like others. But I’m not going to take the hasbarah of Israeli propagandists at their word. Noone doubts the bravery of Mordechai Anielwicz, commander of ZOB in the Warsaw Ghetto. But Anielwicz himself said that the Zionist activities of the Zionist youth groups in Poland was an utter waste of time and a distraction, things like running kibbutzim to replace Polish labour deported to the slave factories of France (which Skif, the Bundist paper vigorously condemned as collaboration incidentally). But what I do say is that when Zionists fought, they did not do so as Zionists, be it in the allied armies or as Partisans, but as individuals organised in groups, despite the politics of those groups. Hashomer Hatzair and left PZ in the Warsaw Ghetto had effectively abandoned Zionism and had one though and one alone - retribution against the Nazi beasts. Likewise incidentally the Revisionist fighters who, in Warsaw almost alone of anywher