Harry’s Place

Which one’s Jasper in the picture? The odd little fellow who looks a bit like Goldie?

Which one’s Jasper in the picture? The odd little fellow who looks a bit like Goldie?

Yes.

The only response to this “strange sequel” is - why?

Possibly because (at least this once) Tony Martin’s website isn’t lying about the course of events? :

When London Mayor Ken Livingstone was informed of Dr. Martin’s uncompromising analysis of the Black/Jewish relationship (see Martin’s landmark book, The Jewish Onslaught), Jasper was ordered to “dis-invite” Martin–an order which Jasper promptly and dutifully carried out.

Why is Lee Jasper suddenly so keen to be photographed in London’s black community press shaking hands with an antisemite friend of David Irving’s?

Because Jasper will do anything at all to be in the limelight at “black community” events. Anybody who has seen him attempt to set up his stall and use his megaphone in Brixton will be totally familiar with the fact that he lives in a fictional world of his own construction (though this is not unlike some of Livingstone’s opponents of course.) Anyway in Jasper’s world he IS the black community.

He isn’t enormously black, in a comparative sense

(If we take “black” to be something to do with the amount of melanin you have in your skin)

He was brought up by his white mother so has probably got all sorts of white cultural hangups as well.

Jasper may for some inexplicable reason be prepared to forgive and forget, but Martin isn’t.

It’s pretty hard to find much good to say about Jasper, but his capacity for forgiveness (presuming that what this incident represents - w) is one.

At the risk of sinking into platitudes, clearly “forgiving and forgetting” personal insults is preferable to “bearing grudges” and “grinding axes”.

There are few things more poisonous politically (and pointless) than recalling past occasions on which offense has been taken. Best thing is to get over it, surely.

In any case, what is wrong with Martin is not that he offended Jasper, but…well, where to start…his whole bankrupt and ignorant and antisemitic Weltanschaaung….

And, in any event, we see that, in 2003, Jasper actually did the right thing. That is surely the point. Who he shakes hands with subsequently is a bit besides the point, and, well, dare I say, irrelevant.

First time I saw Jasper speak (at a YRE event in Plumstead) I thought he WAS white. And an egomaniac. Half right, then. On both counts.

Darcus Howe on Lee Jasper

There is quite a lot of racism in the black community against people who aren’t all black. It’s one of the reasons why it took so long for Obama to take off amongst blacks in the US. Maybe Jasper’s extreme ethnocentrism is motivated by a urge to prove himself.

“At the risk of sinking into platitudes, clearly “forgiving and forgetting” personal insults is preferable to “bearing grudges” and “grinding axes”.

Too true. But wouldn’t it be better if Ken’s office forgave and forgot those erstwhile supporters who they fell out with over Qaradawi, or perhaps Trevor Philips, rather than showing uncharacteristic largesse towards an ungrateful racist Holocaust denier?

It shows how hard this administration will work on building coalitions with cultural commmunities.

And how happy they are to build links with even the most extreme figures in those communities. Even when Martin calls Jasper a “House Nigger” and far worse, he’ll still try to cosy up to him.

This is precisely what happened over Qaradawi. The only thing which stopped the chumming up to Martin’s pro-Farrakhan faction was that Martin had made the mistake of standing on a platform with a white racist.

After Martin was disinvited utter vitriol was thrown at Lee Jasper.

Read this, for example.

This amazing display of lunacy was produced by Lester Lewis (aka “Prince Ntum ba Azah”). According to Ligali, he was the guy behind Black History Month. He has apparently recently “Joined the Ancestors”

A defeat for Livingstone will also be a signal of Black peoples’ displeasure and opposition to the invasion and occupation of Iraq by Britain and the USA.

erm…

Graham

Why do you think that Jasper only dis-invited Martin because he was ordered to by Ken?

Read this, for example.

I love reading stuff like that.

Hi folks.
Sorry, if I change issue again.
But I’m very confused about Timesonline’s topic ‘The Fagin gangs who make millions from child slavery’

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3247820.ece

If I remember, Fagin was an ‘evil Jew’ in Oliver Twist-novel. Is it OK to use this name today, 2008?

Because I really think (as Darcus Howe points out) that Jasper lives in a self-created world of his own in which he looks firstly for the opportunity to impress “the black community” and I certainly don’t think that a little bit of holocaust denial (no let’s call it “historical revisionism”) would have stopped him having an expert on Marcus Garvey at Black history month.

I have talked about this exchange pf letters on here before and can’t help thinking there was some more to all this, but I don’t have time to find the thread or mess about on the web looking into it.

Yes, it is fine.

Is it OK to use this name today, 2008?

I can’t see why not. The news article is not suggesting these modern day “Fagins”. As a short cut for describing the use of children to thieve for you, it seems an entirely reasonable term to use.

Is it OK to use this name today, 2008?

I can’t see why not. The news article is not suggesting these modern day “Fagins” are “evil Jews”. As a short cut for describing the use of children to thieve for you, which is how I expect most sane people view Oliver Twist, it seems an entirely reasonable term to use.

If I remember, Fagin was an ‘evil Jew’ in Oliver Twist-novel.

I don’t think Fagin is as evil to Dickens audience as Bill Sykes the working-class Londoner. Fagin at least cares about the kids.

Although, as we know, Jews did basically run the slave trade.

“Fagin” is in fairly common usage (at least in the press)- his actions, not his ethnicity, are the point.

“Svengali” ditto
though “Shylock” would probably be infra dig

This is worth a look.

http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/graphicnovels/fagin.html

Although, as we know, Jews did basically run the slave trade.
Posted by David T at January 25, 2008 01:51 PM

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/thumb.htm
The Experience of Hans and Else with a Strange Man: “Here, kids, I have some candy for you. But you both have to come with me…”*

Yes, it is fine.

I think Mr T was using sarcasm on you, Graham, in case you missed it.

(Not shit stirring.)

I think he was talking about Fagin Mike but we shall await his revelation of meaning!

Dear David T,
since i’m not english born, for me it’s hard to understand your sense of humor.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/giftpilz/scan9.jpg

I’ve been reviewing the situation…

I guess we’ll never know the truth…like what happened to the missing WMD.

“Are There Decent Jews?: “People are always saying that we Jews cheat other people, that we lie and deceive. Not a word of it is true. We Jews are the most decent people in the world.”*”

Look - a Harry’s Place editorial meeting!

Great site Anna!

“Have nothing to do with a Jew
Then you’ll be happy and gay!”

Surely Decent requires a Capital D?

Ah yes Streicher’s mushroom - People are like fungus - we all grow on shit but the Jews are posionous. Amazing how many references to paedophilia there are too.

I’m going on a 37 mile bike ride before it gets dark….using Ken’s cycle lanes!

Be quick then - Boris will dig them up and build an airport.

May you avoid Ken’s bendy-buses while so doing

Boris Johnson doesn’t do any manual labour, he gets his servants to do any hard work.

Whoa I just found a bittorrent of Irving and Martin lecturing together about the slave trade.

Whoa I just found a bittorrent of Irving and Martin lecturing together about the slave trade.

Damn. The whole thing is on youtube as well.

Isn’t it weird the way that, when you get the the fringes of any politics, obsession with Jews intensifies?

Although, as we know, Jews did basically run the slave trade.
Posted by David T at January 25, 2008 01:51 PM

Is THAT from Jewish Tribune ? (scroll down)

http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/Israel_Sex_Slavery.html

”By Frederico Napolitano - 04 14, 2004
… Acting in accordance with their Talmudic sanctioning of treating Gentiles like cattle, the Israeli dealers savagely compel the “cargo” to trek across the unforgiving Egyptian desert at all times of the day in any type of weather…
…The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the same tribe who engages in this trafficking of White women is the same tribe who owns and manages nearly all of the mass media in America and Europe. Jews make up only a tiny fraction of all White nations, yet occupy most of the managerial and ownership positions of the news and entertainment media. The profound lack of knowledge about the plight of these women would most likely not be the same if the victims were Jewish and the traders were Gentiles…”

No wonder the chicks dig us so!

Check this out - much more cheerful.

Isn’t it weird the way that, when you get the the fringes of any politics, obsession with Jews intensifies?

I don’t try to hang out on fringes, and being a Sarf Londoner I have few dealings with anybody who identifies as Jewish - if they are secular jewish I wouldn’t notice unless they told me (I actually saw a chap in a skullcap in Deptford High Street the other day - something I have never seen in 25 years.) So nowadays anyway it is only on here that I see the obssession manifesting itself (though this does not mean it isn’t there - as it has been throughout history.)

Talking of which:

As far as I know the whole “Jews are responsible for slavery” thing grows out of a passage in the Babylonian Talmud (but I am no theologian or ancient historian - cue jokes about age.)

Oh, Jews would certainly have owned slaves during biblical times, and there would certainly have been Jews who were involved in more recent times in the slave trade, and indeed were slave owners. As there were people of all ethnicities, including those who were black.

Martin is a Farrakhanite. That’s where he’s coming from.

Isn’t it weird the way that, when you get the the fringes of any politics, obsession with Jews intensifies?

While I, essentially, agree with this, here’s your Harry’s Place Readers Friday Challenge (in lieu of Dress Down Friday): find an instance of this in the realm of….

(throws dice labelled with different ideologies on each face/ draws lot/ etc.)

…Scottish nationalism

Scotch Nationalism isn’t particularly extreme though - or is it?

I really don’t know. It doesn’t seem, generally, to have given itself over to acts of violence (Didn’t some people once try to steal the Stone of Scone? Did it get much more militant than that?)

It seems also to steer quite clear of blood and soil stuff. Is there a religious dimension? It is a sort of European regionalism, mostly, isn’t it.

Sorry to display my utter ignorance, but if people aren’t blowing things up, I tend to miss them.

Tricky one Ven. When Mosley and the BUF went to Edinburgh they were attacked by a group called “Protestant Action” who considered them Romish invaders….

(It’s Burns Night tonight, after all)

Scotch Nationalism isn’t particularly extreme though - or is it?

Well, I don’t think it is either - I really know nothing about the real loony fringes of it, beyond the odd abuse of Sassanachs as “white settlers”

(and, I suppose, slightly related - but in honesty more a Scottish over-emphasis of a more all-British bigotry - historic discrimination against Catholics by various major institutions, etc).

Although it wouldn’t surprise me if in its fringe variations it gets a LOT nastier..

a) Scottish Nationalism is pretty harmless, and not really nationalist at all in the traditional right-wing sense.
b) For no decent reason I have ever been able to establish, long-term Scottish history is more or less devoid of Jews in any significant role at all. Prior to very minor immigration from the 19th century onwards, there basically weren’t any.

“Scotch Nationalism”: David T - you’re sounding like Luni. You’ll be on about “West Brits” next

A very rough guess, maybe early Scottish Calvinism?

I’m trying to wind up Marcus on the offchance he reads this ;)

I don’t think you have to have any actual Jews present to develop anti-semitism. In Saudi Arabia, for example, Shi’ites are commonly believed to be a Jewish-founded sect (even though they’re more plausibly Zoroastrian-influenced)

I don’t think that a territory being devoid of Jews necessarily has any relation to whether perceived hostility towards them, or obsessive and spectacularly ill-informed ideas about them, exist to any substantial degree there. A bit like that South Pacific tribe that was convinced Prince Philip was a god.

Blacks also were slaveowners. Blacks also sold off their own people.

Yes, we know this. It isn’t a particularly brilliant point. For a start, what does “own people” mean? You assume - wrongly - that there was a “black identity” in the various societies in Africa in the 18th century, around which a single community identity could be formed.

Its no conspiracy that Zionists have exploited the Holocaust to further their own agenda. Read The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. (son of Holocaust survivors)

Yes, so I’ve learnt on this thread on the CiF

Welcome to the Guardian: Great Britain’s Premier Liberal Newspaper!

If we’ve had Darcus Howe on Lee Jasper (not very complimentary but not damning either) can we have him on Ken Livingstone as well?

I put the Scottish challenge to historian son and got this back:

Is there ever! Apart from Scotland seeing itself as a new covenanted Israel (what my Phd is about in the American context), I wrote the following note on facebook a few months ago:

A dense, academic treatise is to be published in the next few months. It is called: “When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of
Migrations, and Public and Family Records Show Twelfth Century Semitic Roots.”

The popular image of Scotland is dominated by widely recognized elements of Celtic culture. But could it be that a significant non-Celtic influence on Scotland’s history has been largely ignored or unknown for centuries? The
book correctly maintains that much of Scotland’s history and culture from 1100 forward is Jewish. The authors provide evidence that much of the
population, including several national heroes, villains, rulers, nobles, traders, merchants, bishops, guild members, burgesses, and ministers, was of Jewish decent. They describe how the ancestors of these persons originated in France and Spain and then made their way to Scotland’s
shores, moors, burgs and castles from the reign of Malcolm Canmore to the aftermath of the Spanish Inquisition.

This equation of Scotland with Celtic culture in the popular (and academic) imagination has buried a more accurate and profound understanding of its
history. Just look at the census records, archaeological artifacts, castle carvings, cemetery inscriptions, religious seals, coinage, burgess and guild member rolls, noble genealogies, family crests, portraiture, and geographic place names.

Look at the Judaic origins of the Royal House of Stewart, the identity of Aberdeen’s St. Machar, and the possible role of secret Jewish religious
practices in the formation of Presbyterianism.

Look at the Scottish princess Maud de Lens who combined several lines of “Davidic” ancestry and was one of the richest women in Europe…and
the Clan Douglas warrior who removed the heart of Robert the Bruce to have it buried in Jerusalem.

Bagpipes - musical instrument most associated in the popular imagination with Celts and Scotland - first gained popularity in Scotland at the outset
of the 1500s. This was an age which continued the neglect of Celtic culture but which saw the mass expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain due to the
Spanish Inquisition. Significantly, the bagpipe originated in Mesopotamia and Greece between 700 to 400 B.C.E. Hence, it is a Middle Eastern/Central Asian musical instrument, not one indigenous to northern or western Europe.

Kennedy deserves recognition for being the third surname-haplotype studied after Cohen and Sykes. Before settling in Scotland many families lived in
France, where their name was Canady. There is a hint of a Mediterranean connection beyond France as well, for the capital of Crete (and site once
of a Templar fortress) is Candia, now Iràklion. From the 14th century onward it was ruled by the Venetians, who imported sugar from Arabia and
gave the world “candy” The Ottoman Turks wrested it from the Venetians in 1669 after one of the longest sieges on record, an event that must have sent many “Candian” refugees streaming westward.

Knox also urged the adoption of Mosaic law as the governing rule of Scotland. Under it, certain crimes including murder, blasphemy, adultery,
perjury and idolatry would be punishable by death. He further proposed that Scotland create a universal system of education so that every
individual in the population would be literate and able to read the scriptures; he also envisaged a universal charity system to care for the indigent, ill and disabled. Both of these concepts are rooted in Judaic tradition.

If we’ve had Darcus Howe on Lee Jasper (not very complimentary but not damning either) can we have him on Ken Livingstone as well?

Indeed we can but only with a working link

And if Darcus did not seem damning enough about
Jasper then try this as well.

The Scots Independence lot are violent and dangerous:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7209203.stm

“Two men who sent vodka bottles filled with poison through the post as part of a campaign for Scottish independence have each been jailed for six years.
Wayne Cook, 46, and Steven Robinson, 42, sent the miniature bottles full of caustic soda to a Glasgow journalist and a Lancashire councillor.

A note threatening to kill English people “at random” was also sent.

The men from Tyldesley, Greater Manchester, were part of a Scottish National Liberation Army (SNLA) plot. “

“David T adds again:

This is nothing like me going out for a drink with Gilad Atzmon, by the way.”

Oh sorry I made that bit up.

Oh sorry I made that bit up. I should say so. I am sure David T would have said;

This is nothing like *my* going out for a drink with Gilad Atzmon

‘There is quite a lot of racism in the black community against people who aren’t all black. It’s one of the reasons why it took so long for Obama to take off amongst blacks in the US. Maybe Jasper’s extreme ethnocentrism is motivated by a urge to prove himself.’

Its a very complicated issue in terms of gender and class and political commitment both in the US and the English speaking Caribean (especially).

The phenomenon of passing in slave societies, possible for some was complicated by post emancipation ‘one drop’ theories that led to the official seggregationist policies of mixed race people being classified as black.

This labelling produced in reaction a black middle class consciousness of identification that seems not to have developed readily in colour graded hierachies resulting from slavery in non-Englis speaking, latin america and the Caribean.

In the Caribean light skin is a marker of attractiveness (for women) and power, as post independence political elites are generally light skinned.

Among British Black populations of Caribean extraction many of whom are descended from poorer migrants, light skin has a class dimension that a populist politician would have to work against.

Its the socio-psychological inversion of ‘passing’ in fact, where the individual feels the need to overcome any perceived ambiguity in status by burnishing their breatplate of group membership publically.

I would say that Lee Jasper was trying to rub off some of Martin’s ‘Marcus Garvey’s’ inheritance by association, hoping that none of Prof Martin himself, would stick.

Unfortunately modern media ubiquity means that performances for target audiences often get unwelcome general release.

Populists get undone as ‘you can’t fool’ etc etc

Lee Jasper is not actually in the photo.

Like the first commenter on this post, I too was squinting to recognise him. He certainly isn’t the short guy with the sideburns and Oakley glasses on his head.

The Whirlwind is not ‘the black community press’, as you put it, but a newsletter produced by Tony Martin, holocaust denier.

Then you plonk two YouTube videos of Martin onto the post, which reinforces what we all think of him, but undermines the credibility of your source. Your source being Tony Martin!

Why such a shoddy hackjob?

Are you saying that Martin misrecognised a Jasper look-alike for Jasper, and had a conversation with him, on the basis that he was Lee Jasper, without finding this out.

This is Lee Jasper.

Are you positive that the man in the picture is not Lee Jasper?

For a start, what does “own people” mean? You assume - wrongly - that there was a “black identity” in the various societies in Africa in the 18th century, around which a single community identity could be formed.
Posted by David T at January 25, 2008 04:06 PM

i know. I said it ironically

Illuminati-under-my-bed,

Its no conspiracy that NON-’Zionists’/non-Jews have exploited the Holocaust to further their own agenda.

Many (non-jewish) families in Ukraine, Belarus (and probably Poland?) got money from poor swiss bankers, as a children and childrenchildren of the families who were under german occupation during ww2.
Some of those victims actively cooperated with the nazi german army.

David T - the image you linked to resembles the man featured in this post. I shouldn’t have outright denied that it is Jaspers meeting Tony Martin - I have never met the man.

But the flawed premise of this blog post still stands - that the author has taken some Tony Martin propaganda (The Whirlwind), presented it as ‘the black community press’ and then presented the YouTube videos as if they are two separate pieces of evidence.

The truth is, Tony Martin has printed something, and this blog has not only taken it at face value, but reconstructed a narrative from the same source.

All I am really saying is that for some reason the author has spent a lot of energy taking a dodgy kernel of information (the photo) and drawing grand, dramatic insinuations from it.

Ironically, this is the strategy holocaust deniers use. It wouldn’t kill you to use the Freedom of Information act to find out if Jaspers actually met Martin, would it?

“All I am really saying is that for some reason the author has spent a lot of energy taking a dodgy kernel of information (the photo) and drawing grand, dramatic insinuations from it.”

Really? Is that or is that not Lee Jasper posing for the camera with Tony Martin?

Here is that sneaky Lee Jasper lookalike again - wearing the same sunglasses and sporting the same beard

I have to say, this person looks very much like Lee Jasper, and was identified as Lee Jasper in a newspaper article.

It is possible, I suppose, that the photograph was photoshopped, or a man claiming to be Lee Jasper and looking like him turned up and impersonated him. Or that Martin is lying.

Who can say!

David T - when you say ‘newspaper article’ you are being incredibly charitable. Please read my previous post.

Indeed you are right - who in their right mind would accuse noted historian Tony Martin of lying?

Being a Lee Jasper impersonator! That’s a life for which to crave!

Again, I take back my denial of the photo being of Lee Jaspers. I, too initially thought it was Goldie :-P

But that wasn’t the argument. My point was that the photo is from a weak source, which the author of the blog has ‘dressed up’.

I have read the clipping linked to by the post. It says that Jaspers and Martin met at Brixton library at a ‘book launch’ on 20/04/07.

It omits any explanation of why Jaspers was actually there - Did he simply turn up to Brixton library and leap in front of some cameras?

The article quotes him as saying, “I’ve just come to say hello to the man”. At the risk of sounding like a cracked record here, the article is from a Tony Martin publication, so that lack of context is glaring omission.

The correct thing to do would be to call Brixton library and ask if there was a book launch there on that date. Then call the Mayors office to simply ask what Lee Jasper was doing there. It is what any 1st year journalism student would do.

I am not defending Jaspers in any way here. I am simply questioning the integrity of the blog post.