Harry’s Place

Ken is a tragic figure, in the true Shakespearean sense.

Well now we have Falstaff as Mayor.

But tragic? Livingstone is the most succesful socialist politician of my lifetime - if that is tragic then please define success!

One of those rare moments in politics when something magical happens.a RARE HAPPY MOMENT IN P

Did you write that Thursday? i’m wondering what good taking the friday off work might have done.

God, i fucking hate tories, public schoolboys and the evening standard.

If it wasn’t for Chelsea, I’d be out of here.

Coriolanus? Falstaff? I reckon it’s more like we’ve exchangd Prospero for Caliban.

Interesting appraisal of why Ken lost by Hugh Muir in the Guardian - see here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/02/livingstone.london08

I didn’t really care that he was a bit of a bastard - everybody knew he didn’t have any real friends before he was elected the first time, which is why Labour didn’t want him to stand. But he proofed that he had learnt an managed to make a good job at running London overall.

The next four years will be a very important for London; it needed someone who has some policy experience at the helm, not a man of gimmicks that is legendary for his lack of interest in details.

What’s done is done now, of course, but in time I think people will regret it.

Also in the Guardian assessment:

Labour’s London campaign chiefs reported that the ethnic minority vote had turned out for Livingstone, but the white working class vote had been increasingly hostile to him.

Ian Hislop and Paul Merton have a lot to answer for…

I didn’t really care that he was a bit of a bastard - everybody knew he didn’t have any real friends before he was elected the first time, which is why Labour didn’t want him to stand. But he proved that he had learnt and managed to make a good job at running London overall.

The next four years will be a very important for London; it needed someone who has some policy experience at the helm, not a man of gimmicks that is legendary for his lack of interest in details.

What’s done is done now, of course, but in time I think people will regret it.

Ken must take his share of the blame though.

I presume that’s Livingstone’s eyes at the top of the page? It isn’t entirely clear.

Silly me about the day … I’ll change it.

I mean “tragic” in the Shakespearean sense: that he is a hero who has a flaw which ultimately is his undoing. I do think he’s a kind of Coriolanus figure.

“You see, the thing is, I have always really liked Ken. Yes, I know all about his dodgy past: how he came to power by way of a coup, his foolish association with the worst parts of the far Left, and all that. But he has star quality.”

One big collective “Oh, shut up!” for you… Again.

Well, David T, although I disagree with you about the approach to the election, I think your stance and reasons for not backing Ken was honourable (and that adjective is about the biggest compliment that I ever give).

And tis true that all political careers end in failure (and I don’t think I am being presumption to call this the end of Ken’s active political career).

Anyway, let’s hope Boris does a good job as Mayor, and surpasses all expectations that one may have of him.

At first people will give Boris a honeymoon and it will be claimed that he is much better than we thought he would be. However he will quickly become a walking disaster. It may take a year before people realise it.

He could save Brown the next general election.

I mean “tragic” in the Shakespearean sense: that he is a hero who has a flaw which ultimately is his undoing. I do think he’s a kind of Coriolanus figure.

I think you need to be “high born” to be tragic in the Shakespearean sense.

Looking on the bright side, Hugo Chavez and Raul Castro can stick it up their arses.

Thanks very much Ven.

Maybe Ken will learn from his mistakes again and there could be a “Ken 3″ in four years?

Now that Ken is out of office,I suspect he will be back on the TV shows in short order and will quickly get back his lost cheeky chappy image. He could be very popular.

I second what Ven said.

This is truly The End Of An Era. Discuss.

Tony Blair should be the Labour candidate for Mayor next time.

The fact of the matter is that Ken doesn’t represent the majority of Londoners any more, I mean, there are only so many Islamists and old skool socialists and cronies in town. He probably won the first two terms because he was the most recognisable face on the ticket. As soon as someone came along with a bigger brand, and, let’s face it, a much nicer personality, Ken was toast.

I for one welcome our foppish overlord.

“However he will quickly become a walking disaster. It may take a year before people realise it.”

Yeah, that makes sense. If you want to know what a disaster looks like, check out Gordon Brown. Only two more years of him thank god. Boris just doesn’t have enough rope to hang himself like Gordo has managed since him became PM. He should get some kind of medal.

“a hero who has a flaw which ultimately is his undoing”. Ken had lots of flaws, primarily the arrogance to think himself too popular for his bigotry to be noticed.

He could save Brown the next general election.

Regrettably I can’t see anything much saving Gordon Brown at the next election. We just need to pray for a heart attack or something to enable a change to be made before then.

Oh and before anyone slashes any vital arteries, they should check out the Assembly constituency results. Harrow is particularly nice.

The fact of the matter is that Ken doesn’t represent the majority of Londoners any more, I mean, there are only so many Islamists and old skool socialists and cronies in town.

1,028,966 of them to be exact (rather worrying that!) But the big thing for Labour is keeping Livingstone’s personal share of the vote, the ordinary Londoners who came out just to vote for him and would not bother with the usual colourless labour candidate..

How will the party keep those people onboard?

Tony Blair should be the Labour candidate for Mayor next time.

On the basis that this’ll see the Lib Dem candidate come second in the first round, and have a guaranteed victory over Boris in the second? I guess that’s one way to skin a cat.

But the big thing for Labour is keeping Livingstone’s personal share of the vote, the ordinary Londoners who came out just to vote for him and would not bother with the usual colourless labour candidate..

How will the party keep those people onboard?

I truly hate to argue with you but the Assembly results seem to prove you’re wrong. Labour actually gained a constituency, and I’d never heard of the candidate ’til the election…..

Boris just doesn’t have enough rope to hang himself like Gordo has managed since him became PM.

I wouldn’t bet on it.

He should get some kind of medal.

Absolutely. One the size of a millstone.

Here’s some intensely precious musings on the contents of my digestive tract. Hopefully that will distract everyone from the fact that I’m celebrating Boris Johnson’s victory, on the grounds that defeating fascists who exist solely within my own mind is a far higher priority than any events that take place in the reality beyond my own addled cranium.

Much shorter David T - I’m loaded, so I can afford this kind of vanity politics. How about you?

I truly hate to argue with you but the Assembly results seem to prove you’re wrong. Labour actually gained a constituency, and I’d never heard of the candidate ’til the election…..

But nobody comes out to vote for assembly members - they are there to vote for the Mayor and without a personality equivalent to Livingstone in stature they won’t come out at all!

See how many Labour assembly members get elected then!

Ahhh, poor David: ‘I wanted to support Ken. It is just that he didn’t want my support.’

Poor David, let down by a political representative. Let’s have a mutual fucking cry in. Or shall we just, erm, get over being let down.

Politics really isn’t religion - you seem to acknowledge that, yet, you’re simply to decent, or, how shall we put this, unwordly, to acknowledge that all living political representatives on earth may not meet your exacting standards. True, Ken’s been a twat - get-fucking-over-it, could be the expression.

Now, the sky’s not gonna cave in, the vast majority of the Mayor’s responsibility is transport, which is 90% secure from DfT grants (for investment) and fare income (for operating expenditure) - there’ll be some tinkering around the edges here, but nothing major.

But there’s a persistent morality that you, and, of course, Kamm, don’t possess, that of loyalty, or, to put it in terms you might understand, solidarity: i.e. don’t fuck with the Party or the Class. You might get a few more blog hits for your ‘bravery’, but Christ on a fucking stick, you start to come across as a shallow, self-absorbed, arse-head. Which probably isn’t that far off the mark?

Austin,
Did you show solidarity with Blair,three times elected Prime Minister?

Hello Tim

I did! Thanks to me and my ilk he was elected three times for PM. You’re obviously not suggesting that’s a bad thing, I presume?

good.
do you think replacing him with Brown was
a.wise
b.solid

Hmm…

a. not really
b. not really

Austin, you’re being too hard on David T. He could have made up a bunch of shit about supporting Ken just to stay PC, but instead he reveals his intertermoil on the issue and shares his experience with us.

You can’t say fairer than that.

This is truly The End Of An Era. Discuss.

I’ve heard that this is just another indication of a more broad shift to the right in Europe. If things were going so swimmingly under socialist/left leadership, How could this be happening?

Hi Mike

I know, he’s almost too good to us sometimes. To be frank, I’ve been itching to hear stories about bizarre salamander fetishes all day - however, I’m probably quite sated with that one.

As you say, it’s good of him - what next, David T’s guilt when he inadvertently doesn’t recycle the Heinz Baked Beans alluminium can? Now, that’s a post worth reading.

I think Boris is full of surprises. Don’t write him off yet. He has managed to run a decent campaign when nobody thought he would. Right now he is sitting at home though, thinking, OMG, what have I gone and done.

don’t fuck with the Party or the Class.

Commies. Can’t live with ‘em, can’t kill ‘em. :D

I’ll settle for watching them squirm as they’re defeated in election after election.

Oh and before anyone slashes any vital arteries, they should check out the Assembly constituency results.

Tories up to 11, BNP gains a seat. Can I proceede with slashing vital arteries now, or is there some more bad news?

as people have often said, elections are sometimes lost rather than won

Livingstone is the creator of his own misery, that lazy arrogance which pervaded the latter years of his administration showed how political power corrupts and with Ken’s flaws it certainly did.

I remember energetically voting for him on two other occasions, getting up early so the polling station would have just opened and yet this time I really wondered why?

I didn’t want him back but I didn’t want the Tories in either, so I voted with a heavy heart, and it looks as if I wasn’t the only one.

Livingstone can blame no one else but himself, he provided the media with more than enough material to use against him, the way he attacked one time allies was disgusting, almost nothing was too low for him and now we’re lumbered with the fucking Tories.

thanks Ken, you wanker!

Livingstone is the creator of his own misery, that lazy arrogance which pervaded the latter years of his administration showed how political power corrupts and with Ken’s flaws it certainly did.

This doesn’t quite explain how his overall vote is up on last time though does it?

Oh you bastards! You disallow smileys but you can’t allow preview?

Testing one two

Monkeys in Casinos

Mod, did you watch Ken’s speech? You must have felt a little bit sad for the guy.

Though Ken did, with much dignity, blame himself, we all know that’s not entirely fair given the national situation.

Graham,

monocausality? as David T wrote:

Just as Ken turns Labour supporters off, he energies us Tories

anyways don’t get me started, the fucking BNP got one in, bastards…
oh my blood pressure,..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3864098.ece

With apologies to MiskatonicUniversity over at CIF:

“Boris is the best in the world! He is best in the world! We have beaten King Newt at dirty pool!! It is completely unbelievable! We have beaten the Caliphate! Egypt, birthplace of giants. Sayyid Qutb, Abdullah Azzam, Abul Ala Maududi, Al Qaradawi, -we have beaten them all. We have beaten them all. Hasan El-Bana can you hear me?

Gordon Brown, I have a message to you in the middle of the election campaign. I have a message to you: We have knocked Labour out of the this plane of existence. Gordon Broon, as they say in your language in drinking bars around Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath: Your boys took a hell of a beating! Your boys took a hell of a beating!”

Austin, actually the Newt incident is rather interesting. I can well imagine Ken giving that answer and I can totally see how it would be a shock to someone who was a supporter and thought they were being polite.

Remember that before 2000, the media kept quiet about Ken’s rather sharp edged character and played up his cheeky chappy, friendly, image, as a way of attacking the all powerful New Labour establishment. At the time I remember telling people that Ken doesn’t even have any friends on the like minded campaign group on the Labour backbenchers, and falls out with people he agrees with at the drop of a hat, so how on earth do you expect him to work with so many different types of people whilst in charge of London?

All I got were blank looks.

As it happens, the whole process of being expelled from the Labour party, and desperately trying to get back in it, sparked a sense of pragmatism in him that wasn’t there before. If he hadn’t had that experience he wouldn’t have been as good a mayor as he turned out to be.

This is a very good post. I agree with your analysis, DT, but not with the conclusion you draw.

I didn’t help out either. Part of me now feels I should have done. Ken’s concession speech was actually pretty majestic. And possibly the most loyal moment of his political career.

“Here’s some intensely precious musings on the contents of my digestive tract. Hopefully that will distract everyone from the fact that I’m celebrating Boris Johnson’s victory”

This is profoundly unfair bollocks.

“Much shorter David T - I’m loaded, so I can afford this kind of vanity politics.”

Although this is a most unfair ad hominem, there is something in the basic principle. I suspect if I needed affordable housing (targets for which Boris is going to scrap), then I would have been out on the doorsteps for Ken in a way which in reality I wasn’t.

Just as Ken turns Labour supporters off, he energies us Tories

Could be. But with his vote up he has hardly (despite all the wishful thinking about his arrogance, anti-semitism or weird nastiness) “turned Labour supporters off” has he?

The sad and simple truth is that the Tories mobilised more people who live in the suburbs and hate paying congestion charges.

Arnie on Boris: “This guy is fumbling about all over the place”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFLrCf3Qdk

The sad and simple truth is that the Tories mobilised more people who live in the suburbs and hate paying congestion charges.

The cozying up to Islamist maggots had nothing to do with Ken’s defeat?

Boris’s biggest vote was in Bromley, where they don’t even pay the congestion charge. In fact it’s not really part of London.

When the Tories set the boundaries for London elections in the early 80s they apparently made sure it included plenty of Tory areas on the edge of London. It’s really helped them tonight.

The cozying up to Islamist maggots had nothing to do with Ken’s defeat?

No I agree with David T this had little to do with it for most people, who probably hadn’t even heard of the cleric in question.

However I think the perception that he was wasting money on minority groups in general probably played apart - given the Standard campaign.

The cozying up to Islamist maggots had nothing to do with Ken’s defeat?

Since his vote is up on last time it seems doubtful his one meeting with Qaradawi even registered with voters. (Although that isn’t to say it shouldn’t have.)

There was some truth to that, so I woiuldn’t blame the Standard entirely. Ken definitely went overboard by allowing his friends like Jasper to spend hundreds of millions on projects.

Anyway most voters would appear to have seen right through the nasty and undemocratic campaign by that revolting right-wing rag The Standard.

Rumour has it that the Rothermere’s will now close the paper down - its last job having been a suicide mission on the reputation of Ken Livingstone.

Yes I’ve heard it’s been pretty bad. I don’t really buy it anymore so I haven’t seen it all. Gilligan was on the media tonight openly admitting he was politically motivated.

The irony is the Standard first supported Livingstone as a way of attacking the government, as Toynbee noted in her article attacking the Standard the other day.

Originally the Standard supported him to spite Labour; now it attacks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/29/london08.boris

Incidentally the editor of the Standard responded in the letters page:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/apr/30/associatednewspapers.pressandpublishing

Fantastic result. A panderer to clerical fascism has been turfed out.

Fuck Labour.

Since his vote is up on last time it seems doubtful his one meeting with Qaradawi even registered with voters.

No, Livingstone’s vote % hardly moved, up just a half of one percent. What the results suggest is that Ken’s chumminess with radical clerics was more important for Muslim voters than non-Muslim. What shored up Livingston’s vote was the Islamist Respect vote moving to Labour (see how Lindsey German’s vote collapsed to almost nothing).
http://results.londonelects.org.uk/Results/CombinedMayoralResults.aspx

I wouldn’t be surprised either to discover that the Liberal Democrat vote of 2004 leaked much more to Labour than to the Tories given the left-wing credentials of the LD candidates. So why then didn’t Ken’s vote % rise? The loss of disillusioned Labour voters must have been significant. It is unlikely that these would prefer Boris to Ken on economic grounds, so Livingstone’s support for clerical bigots, his support for totalitarian regimes, and corrupt favouritism for certain special interest groups almost certainly played their part.

No I agree with David T this had little to do with it for most people, who probably hadn’t even heard of the cleric in question.

For some reason that’s what creeped me out the most about Ken. It stank to high heaven. I think David t made the right decision. And anyways, even if he’d voted for Ken it wouldn’t have changed the outcome. He really DID take a principled stand. You lemmings who put “party” and “class” before anything else can fuck right off into oblivion.

It was the Evening Sturmer wot won it.

Personally I was putting London first as I saw it.

Another Toynbee on Boris:

Boris the jester, toff, serial liar and sociopath for mayor
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/17/comment.pressandpublishing

I suspect a third option. Johnson will neither bring back “doleful politics”, nor be a cuddly Tory. Instead, he will make some really stupid gaffe, bumble around and be out pretty quickly. People say he has racist views, or at the very least is not fit to really understand and run a city like London. This will soon be seen to be true, I reckon.

As for the post mortems: Ken suffered from the general anti-Labour swing, nothing to do with Muslim clerics or anything like that. It’s the economy, stupid. Plus the downside of a long incumbency.

I reckon if Ken had been an Independent he would have won.

Toynbee debated Boris every week for several years on the BBC’s now defunk Head to Head programme, so she knows him quite well. Talking about it the other day she said he was the most hopeless opponent she could have wished for; he never could remember a fact, statistic or a Tory policy, and regularly got things mixed up.

He wasn’t an independent and won easily last time, of course. If he’d suddenly become an independent again he would have split the vote with the Labour candidate and lost big. He probably wouldn’t have any money either - not that Labour have much.

A better argument to make would be that if Blair was still in power Ken might just have won. The polls show he was more popular personally, gave Labour a higher poll rating, and had got a higher percentage of vote in council elections just a year ago, despite the perception he was being forced out.

But I guess we’ll never know.

Some believe that if Steve Norris ran again as the Tory candidate he would have won by an even bigger margin than Boris has done, which is interesting. He certainly would have scared less Labour voters.

Instead, he will make some really stupid gaffe, bumble around and be out pretty quickly. People say he has racist views

You’ve been reading far too much MCB propaganda Benjamin. One may despise Johnson’s conservatism, but he is no fool, and neither does he seem to be the racist shamelessly constructed by Ken’s demagogues. In fact, the right of the Tory party loathe Johnson for his platitudes towards multiculturalism.

nothing to do with Muslim clerics or anything like that.

See my analysis above which shows why you are wrong. Those lower classes most affected by the credit crisis would be insane to vote for Johnson over Livingstone on economic grounds. Compare their housing policies for instance. Dislike of Labour, and a visceral dislike of Livingstone brought out a huge Tory vote in their London heartlands, a dislike compounded by his embrace of totalitarian communist regimes and the Islamist movement.

old Labour, agreed.

As I stated further up, first there will be the honeymoon, and the general surprise at how Boris hasn’t fucked everything up: “Oh, it turns out Boris isn’t so bad after all”, will be the clumsy sentiment. It may take a year or so before people realise how crap he really is. The mayor isn’t running our day to day lives in the same way as a national government, so these things take time.

I used to go around saying Ken would quickly fuck everything up when he first got the job. I was dead wrong.

David T’s tale of Labour apathy is a very broad one. This is true of Labour Party branches all over the country, trying to get people to canvass etc. Few are interested.

Ken implemented Labour policies, his policies were moderately social democratic, and the rest of it, such as Muslim clerics etc (although important to a small minority of Labour supporters) is just very thin gravy. Hopes and ideals? Ken has not betrayed them anymore than any other politician. Voting is not something to get so agonised about; we should all know the game now.

If middle of the road Ken really does represent such an epiphany for people here about politicians ways, I can only say this is a very late conversion to cynicism. I was disillisioned years ago. Join the club!

Where Ken’s campaign went wrong

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/02/london08.livingstone

I was disillisioned years ago

Yes, Blair didn’t do all those trendy liberal things you hoped when he was hanging out with Blurr so you predictably thought it wasn’t worth voting Labour anymore, along with millions of other twats.

I think that’s called being a pillock, not a synic.

You’ve been reading far too much MCB propaganda Benjamin.

I have not read anything by the MCB.

Dislike of Labour, and a visceral dislike of Livingstone brought out a huge Tory vote in their London heartlands, a dislike compounded by his embrace of totalitarian communist regimes and the Islamist movement.

Pity that’s not born out by the voting figures. The swing to the Tories in the mayoral election was less, or about the same, as the general swing to the Tories. I think, if anything, Livingstone slightly ameliorated the anti-Labour swing. As for the Muslim thing, it made little impact either way. As for totalitarian communist regimes, I presume you mean China. Yes, bad, but everyone’s at it unfortunately. Filthy lucre.

This is about the economy and incumbency. Economy’s going south, Livingstone’s been in 8 years, Labour 11.

“Fantastic result. A panderer to clerical fascism has been turfed out.

Fuck Labour.”

How terribly deep of you Drew. This is first class political analysis. I could say more, but… I feel it would be bad for my blood pressure.

Jesus, I’m good at making friends and influencing people at the moment, aren’t I?

At the risk of turning into a sub-Will-esque character, there is an awful lot of stupid reactionary bovine filth flying around here at the moment.

Benjamin, your analysis is correct. You are a prime example of the fact that “few are interested”, of course. I love the way you cheerily say “I was disillisioned years ago. Join the club!”. I could go on at length about this, but I’m actually not going to, because, despite the fact that you are a muppet, your posts exhibit far less muppetry than a large number of other comments on this thread and the thread two posts below. I mean, it is a genuinely interesting question. What is it that attracts creatures like Drew to actually read and comment here? I would *really* like to know.

No, Mike, I just find it genuinely amusing how anybody could get worked up about a politician as middle of the road as Ken. However, perhaps Johnson represents that post-politics thing. Perhaps he’s not really a politician at all. Blair wanted to get people like Richard Branson to run London. Now they have Johnson, who always seems to be playing someone else.

Ben, no, Benji doesn’t really know what to say so has latched onto a straw man about Islamists, despite David T already admitting that this probably did not play a significant role in the general vote against him. When people cite the Islamist thing, they are not claiming this is the reason for him going in any event - they just mean it’s good that he’d gone because of this.

The scandals and perception that Ken was wasting money on his mates did play apart, as did the issue of crime and tax. Labour focused all their resources on London, and there was a big turn out and lots of debates and coverage, so although the national and political situation played a part, we cannot pretend it was all down to that.

Personally I agree with the argument that the loss would have been even bigger for Ken had Norris ran again. Boris did scare out a lot of Labour voters.

Like some others here have mentioned, the BNP getting a seat in the Assembly is really depressing.

Benji, it’s just the silly point that you always make. Nobody is “worked up”. It’s call an election where one choeses to vote for a candidate. The result has just been announced a few hours ago, which is why it is being discussed. Why do you get “worked up” about Blair?

Silly billy.

Nobody is “worked up”.

Well, that’s a relief.

As it happened, the Mayoral election was the closest, the most exciting and most politically significant election, along with the local elections, since 1992 and 1995.

Ken Livingstone is a controversial maverick politician and always has been.

Beat it, kid.

You’re a bit out of the loop down there. The Olympic fever that’s sweeping Hong Kong must have distracted you.