Harry’s Place

Your opening words: “Multiculturalism. I like it.” I don’t. Not multiculturalism in practice.
As writer Paul Weston puts it:-

“Until very recently British politicians and journalists were forever eulogizing on the merits of a multicultural society. They told us how enriching it was and how we should celebrate our vibrant diversity hitherto unavailable in the racially stale and homogenous West. However, despite these outpourings of praise verging on the messianic I have yet to hear any of them elaborate on the concrete positives of multiculturalism. Just one instance would suffice but multiculturalism’s adherents prefer to praise in the general rather than the specific. As such they are just words with no meaning and no intention of meaning, other perhaps than that of deliberate subterfuge.”

‘Multiculturalism - Merits and Debits’ (by Paul Weston)

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/british_renaissance/may_2007/multiculturalism_merits_debits.htm

I don’t see why women should have to put up with this bullshit.

Maybe we should arm them. :D

There was a very interesting episode of Peter Tatchell’s program on 18 Doughty Street where he discussed multiculturalism with Johann Hari. It turned out that basically whether or not you approve of the concept depended on your definition of it. Peter thought it meant the existence and acceptance of people from so many different cultures, and Johann thought it meant a kind of cultural relativism where you blindly accept things like forced marriages etc for the sake of cultural harmony.

Yes, yes, yes! Someone on one of the election threads said something to the effect that Qaradawi might have been a factor to ‘liberals, Jews and gays but those groups don’t decide elections’.
In the rather male blogosphere the main targets of patriarchal, theocratic religion are often overlooked. Really, one would quite think we were all in burquas already…The role of Islamism and other male supremacist religion in our society is a feminist issue affecting every woman who has ever worn a boob-tube, a mini-skirt or an evening-dress, run round the park at dawn or gone swimming, every woman who thinks herself intellectually, emotionally, sexually autonomous, black, white, green, purple, pink with polka dots. There are enough of us to decide any election in which that role was a major issue. As a sprog of the atheist, feminist Left, I have watched a madness take over virtually the entire spectrum of the Left, wherein women’s rights are a minor issue compared to the wonder of being religious, the Sacranies and Murphy O’Connors feted while women’s organizations stagger along, quaint little side-shows to mainstream politics who couldn’t possibly merit a place at the High Table. Elephant in the room: that we are not a minority is so blindingly obvious that the behaviour of the ‘Left’ strains belief. Nor are we docile, meek, passive and submissive.

Feminism, now objectively pro-American, will certainly lose the battle for the Lefty Soul.

Mesquito. If feminism is ‘objectively pro-American’ then presumably you object to women having human rights, which should be the preserve of the male of the species? In the 1970s, when ‘political Islam’ became fashionable, I noticed a worrying enthusiasm for Islam among male friends on the left, who had not exactly welcomed the rise of the Women’s Movement.

Dectora. You misread me.

I am objectively, and subjectively, pro-American.

Putting aside all the philosophical bullshit, women are half the population (except in China).

So why not let them kick some ass?

ken’s teary red eyes up on the banner are freakin’ me out. and i miss hurryupharry.blogspot.com’s drab socialist beige :-(
bloody neoliberal reforms.

Amusing that the advert to the right of this article read “WWII Third Reich Items Stamps, Cover, Documents, Medals Revenues, Labels, Over 7000 items” (all commas, and lack of commas, sic). Yes, I have no idea what `Cover’ is in this context either, nor what `Medals Revenues’ (nor Revenues, come to that) are.

Anyway, making money out of promoting the sale of Nazi Memorabilia. Good to see Harry’s place remains unconstrained by conventional wisdom.

We’ve given them the vote boogski, isn’t that enough? Btw anyone seen a breakdown of the tory swing by gender? Jus wondering if, as I sort of expect boris was more popular with women than ken. I aint seen it discussed this time.

The problem is that there are too many religionists in the Government, and they cannot bear to do what makes most sense - keep religionism in the private sphere and the state secular.

Someone like Ruth Kelly is a menace in this respect. They push for their religious extremism top be tolerated, which automatically means others have to get the same treatment. It would be fairer if all were treated as groups entitled to practice their beliefs privately, but only within the confines of the law. The law should not justify any religious practice which is oppressive or discriminatory

The same thing is going on here in Canada and it makes my blood boil.

I have been following the case of Jaswinder Sidhu for years now. She was a young East-Indian Canadian citizen who was the victim of an honor killing. On the orders of her mother and uncle, a gang of thugs seized her, slit her throat and left her for dead in a watery ditch.

Her crime? She married a young Indian man outside of her cast.

He has since been thrown in jail on trumped up charges of rape. The uncle and mother have connections with the village elders who made up the charges to have him thrown in prison. Why? He vowed to get justice for his wife and so to shut him up, the aunt and uncle had him put out of sight.

Jaswinder’s murder happened on June 8, 2000. There is yet to be anyone brought to justice for it here in Canada. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police say there is no proof the uncle and mother ordered the killing. But the guy who slit Jaswinder’s throat has since confessed that it was them who ordered him to kill her over the phone as his men held her nearby.

Yet the RCMP will not arrest the mother and uncle. They say there is not enough evidence. The Indian police have a warrant out for the arrest of the mother and uncle if they set foot on Indian soil. So to the Indians there is enough evidence.

Jaswinder Sidhu was not some wog. She was a human being and a bona-fide Canadian citizen. She deserves justice.

I have pestered the authorities for years about it, to no avail. The CBC, which first brought the story to the nation’s attention, has done periodic updates on it. Also to no avail.

There is a real fear by the authorities here in Canada to bring minorities to account for their traditional ways that break our laws. Especially the Sikh community which these people are a part of. Did you know that a few years ago, a Sikh pride parade was held in Vancouver where the actions of those who bombed Air India Flight 182 were celebrated?? Glorifying terrorists. But the authorities did nothing.

These sick traditional beliefs that oppress women in immigrant communities go unpunished by Canadian authorities for fear of ripping a hole in the fake fabric of the nation’s mosaic. Rather than deal with the problem and perhaps be voted out of office, they maintain the status quo and ignore the plight of immigrant women.

Even when the perp is caught and brought to trial for honor killing, it is not acknowledged to be so by the authorities. It is just treated as any other murder and judges do not mention how grotesque, sick, and twisted the tradition of honor killing is.

So, it still goes on. It still goes unpunished. And Jaswinder Sidhu still has no justice. It is heartbreaking.

Pragna’s article is a really good, cogent read. Well argued and knows its stuff, and deserves a wider audience.

Baffling Contrarian’s contribution is very depressing. Its subject matter, that is. Canada is in more compromised situation than most Western countries because it is accommodating the whole package: “traditions” (a figleaf) that trample on the most basic rights are permitted within self-sealed cultural ghettoes. Once you start that, you end up going over a cliff. The saddest thing is that but for a small and vociferous minority of traditionalist “leaders” , everyone suffers the consequences in a supposedly free country. Canada and other appeasing countries are betraying minorities, not supporting them.

Yup, Canada is going down the toilet fast. Between our pathetic PM Harper that does the bidding of the twats in the U.S. administration to political correctness run amok so that crimes by minorities are overlooked, it’s all going to hell in a handbasket. I can’t get out soon enough.

Don’t let this happen to you Britannia!

“parallel monocultures that hold supremacist views”

Who are we talking about here? Do we mean Catholics with their seedy priesthood or polygamous Mormons or maybe Plymouth Brethren whose women are expected to cover their heads for modesty? Or is it only non-whites that we’re concerned about?

Multiculturalism is not new- thirteenth century Toledo supported a (relatively) harmonious coexistence of Jews, Christians and Muslims, for example. The balance between a central authority and that of its constituent communities is difficult to fairly locate as the discussion over religious schools has recently shown. However, in discussing such a balance, we must be careful that our discussions do not slip into simplistic stereotyping or plain prejudice.

Billy!
“However, in discussing such a balance, we must be careful that our discussions do not slip into simplistic stereotyping or plain prejudice.”

By your reasoning should we avod saying things like “…Catholics with their seedy priesthood…”?

Billy

So, all catholics are white? all baptists as well?

and shocker, not all muslims are asian or arabic.

I love your comment about Toledo, run that “relatively” by me would you ;-)

Mesquito

“By your reasoning should we avod saying things like “…Catholics with their seedy priesthood…”?”

Fair call, knee-jerk generalizations are easy to slip into. But my point remains- all examples brought up so far involve religions from mostly non-white minority communities in the west.

Richard

“So, all catholics are white?”
No of course not. But many of them are. Whereas most muslims and sikhs (who came up in earlier posts) are not.

“all baptists as well?”
Uh? Who mentioned baptists?

“I love your comment about Toledo, run that “relatively” by me would you”
The thirteenth century was not a tolerant time. Toledo was about as good as it got back then.

Baffling,

But is that really true? You hear similar accusations against the police in the UK.

Surely in cases where a body is found in the UK (or Canada) are thoroughly investigated. The system is set up deliberatly to prevent political interference in the investigation and prosecution of crimes. Where those lines are crossed there is always a big, big deal about it. (eg BAE/Saudi Arms deals)

Christ all mighty, the constant tension between Judges and the Government in the UK shows that the system is working - that such political interference, if it was occuring, would be revealed.

I cant believe it is a policy. Where the murder happened in the sub continent - then yes bringing a prosecution and obtaining evidence would be extremely difficult. Can you imagine what it would be like for a British Detective to fly to a village in the Punjab and try and work out what had happened.

Billy,

“thirteenth century Toledo supported a (relatively) harmonious coexistence of Jews, Christians and Muslims, for example.’”…..

really?..
Here is Richard Fletcher (reader in history , University of York),writing in “Moorish Spain”…..”Moorish Spain was not a tolerant and enlightened society even in its most cultivated epoch”.

Why do so many of the so-called ‘political left’ still try to speak positively of ‘multiculturalism’, despite its abundant absurdities?:-

“The absurdities of Multiculturalism” (celebrated by Ralph Musgrave)

http://www.multiculturalbunk.com/#1

The British Police are trying hard to avert the situation that contrarian complains of in Canada. The case of Sheftalia Ahmed must be considered shocking by any sane person. Her body was uncovered accidentally in a shallow grave one hundred miles from her home. There was a history of her parents trying to force her to marry and violence. The Police were unable to collect sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution, and so to air the facts of the crime, an inquest was held. The coroner brought in a verdict of ‘unlawful killing’ and in his opinion he thought it was related to the forced marriage. The family are now asking for a judicial review to overturn the verdict. I suppose they think that it was a ‘lawful killing’?

Billy

shelelee

Re: Islam and history of Spain, suggest see:

“The Myth of the Golden Age of Tolerance in Medieval Muslim Spain”

(by Norman Berdichevsky) : -

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4205&sec_id=4205

We’ve given them the vote boogski, isn’t that enough?

:D

No. It would help if they all had dark skin. Can that be arranged?

The difference you describe is that between “multiculturalism” and “Multiculturalism”.

The first one means a bunch of different people living in the same area and getting along. The second is a Book in the Bible of Liberalism (Self elected) - the fundamentalist religion. Note that “Liberalism” has nothing to do with being “liberal” either. All heretics will be burned.

American white people like diversity:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/7-diversity/

Ass i said recently I have always had a soft spot for Southall Black Sisters.

They keep the emancipatory logic of anti-racism and non-discrimination alive and do not fetishize cultural difference as a trump card over equality before the law and an equl participation in a civic society.

Neil D

My short hand way of disarticulating this is to seek a definition oc culture before you start thinking of the music the jamaican patties etc.

This is incredivly difficult I an a trained anthropologist and I am still working on the meanings of culture.

Now we might see the fact that the Canadian Multicultural Act doesn’t define the thing that they are compelled by law to bring about multiple versions of poses a bit of a problem.

The best shorthand description of culture I know is;

‘a set of rules that tell you how to behave towards events or people that challenge the norms and values you accept as placing you within a distinct cultural group’

A simple and common enough but horrifying example will suffice to explain how multiple parallel rules between different members of the same society will conflict.

‘Your daughter is 15 you have just discovered that she is pregnant by a 16 year old local boy, a drug dealer and petty criminal, who only last year you caught breaking your car windows’

How do you feel?

What do you think?

What will you do?

Why?

How will you do these things?,

Who will you turn to for help?

Will you go it alone or with reference to and support from others in your community?

Why?

I mean really saying Multiculturalism is a good thing is like saying quantum mechanics is a good thing, well yes but isn’t it rather affected by the position of the obsever?

Baffling Contrarian is talking crap.

When murders occur in Canada, the police investigate. Usually they find the killer - and usually it’s easy. But sometimes not. And sometimes the cock-ups are spectacular, but the only reason the cops let Sikhs or anyone else off is because they can’t get the evidence.

Just came to see the new layout. Prefer the old myself.
Anyway, cities suck, urban “multiculturalism” does not make up for the crushing anomie I am afraid. What though bothers me is that people who do not like “parallel” monocultures preferring “melting pots” think its cool to force melting pots on people who need the security and comfort of a continuity with their past and a deeper connection with their roots than a superficial “pick and choose” culture (which is the LCD that the melting pot seems to lead to) can give them.
Why do you think America exists if not for the people who want meltingpots. Cannot the Old World be allowed to keep its history and culture (in a deeper sense than just as another marketing ploy to be used to sell products)?

I often ask devotees of the joys of multiculturalism how many cultures they belong to.

Rarely do they understand the question.

If I ask;

how many languages they speak and how many have they spoken in the last week?,

Which countries they have lived and worked in?

the ethno linguistic origins of their sexual and life partners?

the places of distinct forms of worship they have been to more than once?

the naming rituals, rites of passage and mortuary rituals they know and have been participant to?

the ethnic and religious character of their children?

The answers are generally of a mono-cultural defensiveness ‘just because I haven’t had any life experience of actual other cultures, doesn’t mean I don’t like them’ kind.

If I ask these same ppeople what the cultural meanings of masculinity, femmininty, virginity, non-procreative sex, mother in laws, pride, honour, duty, respect might be among the likely traditions of the range of peoples they shop alongside next to (and less commonly work alongside), they tend to think that even considering these issues is some kind of racism.

Curiously I notice that people who do work among a pluralist workforce (say the NHS or London underground) and who have had diversity training are even less able to ask these questions and more nervous of doing so.

A South American friend of mine who joined the NHS as a consultant recently was appalled by his compulsory diversity training before he took up the post.

He felt deeply patronised by a process whose a prori assumptions were that some people were irreduceably different and that cultural sensitiivty was understood as not asking or doing lots of things that you might think offensive even if it leads to not doing your job.

Sheleylee, Jack R

Toledo in the thirteenth century was under Catholic rule, not muslim as you suggest. The reconquest occurred there in 1085.

I think “multiculturalism” to many people just means “interesting food” and “colourful clothing”. It’s the tourist’s view of a city.

Billy.

I did not suggest anything about the dates of Muslim rule in Spain; I referred to Berdichevsky’s critique: ‘The Myth of the Golden Age of Tolerance in Medieval Muslim Spain’ -

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4205&sec_id=4205

mettaculture

Your ‘horrifying example’ is fine as far as it goes, but the implication is that from the perspective of some cultures one would turn to the kind of violence which is illegal in most western societies. In Britain, Canada and elsewhere there is a single legal framework which applies equally (in theory) to all and sets out consequences for our actions. Perfectly reasonable.

In fact, though, most of the stuff that human beings do is not of the soap opera drama variety which brings us up against the law. As you suggest in your second post it involves the ordinary activities of working, eating, worshipping, spending time with our kids, chatting to our partners, hanging out with our friends, etc. And it is diversity here that multiculturalists acknowledge and enjoy.

At the same time, it is essential that we have some shared values and a shared language to talk about them, which is why making a multicultural society successful needs language and integration classes for immigrants, an end to religious education and a strong government commitment to anti-discrimination legislation.

What alternative is there to multiculturalism within a common legal framework?

Billy

perhaps my memory is failing me but I think I remember something about forced conversions?

Islam used diferent approach (Dhimmi status) but neither is what you would call tolerent or multicultural.

Billy

as you so precisely point out rarely does a post-enlightenment view of cultural norms require ajudication before the courts,

But from an Islamo-centric view of western culture we are being ethnocentric and hegemonic in making and enforcing this distinction..

Sharia ‘law’ is a paradigmatic social ,cultural, economic and political system.

Sharia is both society and culture and paradigmatic, in the sense of a cohesive explanatory system and the ideal template for society it covers all aspects of personal and interpersonal behaviours from dress and manners to the criminal law and the procedural aspects of law itself.

The Archbishop’s view of a multicultural accomodation with Islam and Sharia is both ethnocentric and religiously and politically self serving of an agenda which would extend the social and political remit of Religon to a contractual interpersonal arena.

This is however merely a pyramidal or hierachical conception of limited plural monocultures where each has a place and remains in their place in their ‘community’ or ‘culture’ over which lieas the umbrella of society, big law and big politics.

If an Islamist woman refuses to shake your hand she is not simply saying that it is against her culture but quite unnexceptionally within her world view she is saying that it is against the law.

So a unified and non-discriminatory legal system as a sine qua non of a viable culturally pluralist society is itself increasingly deeply contested.

Even if we re-fight and win again this battle once considered a secure foundation of modern democracies, we are still left with the fact that this is a necessary but far from sufficient mechanism of both social tolerance and cohesion.

So we remain with the problem of how to deal socially with interpersonal behaviours that often conflict and are felt to be binding upon culture members but fall below the threshold of secular legal systems in pluralist societies.

Trevor phillips has suggested that we need to articulate a social ‘highway code’ (what i call a metacultural framework) to regulate culturally diverse interpersonal behaviour, consensually.

He was called a racist for this howeve,r by a diffuse (but identifiable) posse of self-appointed, self-regarding ‘multiculturalists’ who cannot even describe what the kind of society they say we must have might actually look like, to those future generations who will have no choice but to live in it.

This is the reality in London - capital of multiculturalism in the UK - about 25% of the population who are not of recent immigrant stock now support the BNP - a neoNazi organisation. Moreover the Labour Party in London probably relies on 75% of its vote coming from the immigrant communities.

Other observations: the Muslim community is punching way above its weight because through the Mosque committees it can get its vote out on a huge scale - perhaps 80-90% I would estimate, compared with a general turn out half that. So for the purposes of democratic elections the Muslim population is impacting at twice its nominal size.

A recent survey suggested 25% of primary school children NATIONALLY do not have English as a first language, which is a remarkable transformation and NOT a good signpost for the future.

My concern is that we have had “bad” immigration. There has been no screening of immigrants and so we have brought in huge numbers who either hate our democracy and our freedoms or who have a criminal background.

The numbers have also been far too large.

The impact on educational standards in inner city areas is clear for all to see. Any parent who had the wherewithal would avoid putting their English speaking child in a school where say 40 languages are spoken. They themselves will likely be isolated and there is no way a high standard of educational attainment will be possible where these immigrants are largely coming from poor countries with no academic tradition.

I have always opposed multiculturalism, just as I have always opposed racism.

I wish to see a broad monoculture for our principal language of discourse and our political and legal system. The rest: music, dancing, clothes, theatre, food, personal religious beliefs and other customs are fine - that multiculturalism does indeed work and adds to the richness of life.

Christ, how did this turn into a Catholic thing that now hogs the thread???

Donald Bane: Yes, it’s true. If the CBC can find enough evidence in an investigative report in India, why can’t the world-renowed RCMP?

Brian From Toronto: Do you actually know anything about the facts of the case or the “cock-ups” of the RCMP? Or are you just talking krap???

mettaculture

“from an Islamo-centric view of western culture we are being ethnocentric and hegemonic in making and enforcing this distinction”

We are, and that is entirely acceptable, indeed unavoidable, whatever decision taken and enforced regarding the degree to which groups can be autonomous. Equality under the law is an absolute. It may be that this is increasingly contested by Islamism, but I am not convinced this is anything other than the normal process of accommodation between immigrant and indigenous communities, exacerbated by post-colonial middle eastern politics. Such an accommodation can and will be found.

Islam is not alone in its perception of religious doctrine as a non-negotiable set of truths laying out how a devotee should conduct themselves. Buddhism, Mormonism, Catholicism and for that matter Anglicanism all consist of codes and practices developed to direct the believer through life. (My grandmother wouldn’t leave the house without a headscarf because of a verse in Paul, for example)

In the case of Islam, one problem is that (as your quotes around the word ‘law’ suggest) an Islamist simply does not mean the same thing by sharia as is meant in English by law- it is partly a case of mistranslation. In fact, in common with other immigrant communities around the world (defined by religion or otherwise) Islam has long been able to adapt to local contexts.

“So we remain with the problem of how to deal socially with interpersonal behaviours that often conflict and are felt to be binding upon culture members but fall below the threshold of secular legal systems in pluralist societies.”

Do we really? When we can speak a common language (and sometimes even if we can’t), we usually just work things out, often by talking to each other. Someone doesn’t want to shake my hand- that’s odd, but ok. I have a similar problem here in Switzerland (where I now live) with greeting people by kissing them three times on the cheeks. After a recent move from Denmark where the handshake is ubiquitous, kissing still makes me jump. However, we can talk about it, stumble through it and if necessary find another way to carry out the same social function…

Trevor Philips is correct in stressing the importance of communities mixing and communicating, though I am unclear as to what his “social ‘highway code’” would actually consist of in practice, how it would be enforced, or whether it is really needed.

It is natural for immigrant communities to try to preserve cultural practices from our ‘home’ countries, even as we are changed by the experience of immigration and our children grow up as foreigners. Negotiating what can be kept and what must go is a delicate and ongoing process, one which changes both immigrants and the host country.

baffling contrarian
Sorry- I’m about to bring it up again…

Richard
perhaps my memory is failing me but I think I remember something about forced conversions?

That was the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries- a very bad time to be Jewish or Muslim in Toledo or anywhere else in Spain for that matter.

The twelfth and thirteenth centuries in Toledo were known for their (relative- this was a time when life was short and brutal, remember) tolerance, with long periods of peace and legal equality.

Billy,

I’m sure you’re account of Toledo as a model society ( relatively speaking ) is right….but surely the history of the rest of Spain, in this period ,shows that it was the anomaly…..what is the lesson?

Billy wrote:

legal equality.

did that include dress codes for Jews?

or the special tax (jizya) paid by non-believers?

if so, then equality is not the word to use

Just as a matter of interest, could someone (like Mettaculture) tell me/us how a Muslim who has sinned can redeem him/herself. I mean a Catholic can make a confession, a Protestant can repent, a Jew can perform certain rituals, so what does an erring Muslim do?

Well they can wait for Allah’s judgement (he is an intervening sort of deity) in common with most theistic religions.

They can also do the usual ritual and observant practice stuff of religions; upping of decent and pure behaviours ,worshipping regularly, ablution etc as well as abstaining from the forbidden and the disaproved of and engaing in the good and approved of.

This is all a bit secondary to the divine creed (aqeedah) or core beliefs and the five duties or pillars of islam.

The six beliefs in Sunni and Shia Islam are:
-Belief in God (Allah), the one and only one worthy of all worship (tawhid).

-Belief in the Prophets (nabi) and messengers (rusul) sent by God ( messengers have received a revelation and a direct message to transmit in book form)
-Belief in angels (mala’ika).

-Belief in the holy books (kutub) sent by God

-Belief in a judgment day (qiyama) and an afterlife

-Belief in Fate, God’s will (qadar).

——
In Sunni islam the five duties or pillars are;

-Shahadah (declaration of belief ),
-Salah (prayer),
-Zakah ( giving of alms often as a tax),
- Sawm (fasting through Ramadan),
- Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca).

Jihad ( religiou struggle in the name of islam) was historically considered the sixth pillar by karijiite heretics and is found as a core principle in Shia and Ismaili doctrines.

Jihad in a non allegorical form, is a core pillar in today’s Islamist theology of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad organization and Al-Qaeda famously articulated by Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Shia doctrines also place as central doctrines of the final judgement, avoidance of evil and practice of good works as well as the principles of reason and love as informing of doctrine.

Sufi and popular traditions also include prayers for intercession at the tombs of saints which alleviates the rigour of strict doctrine for many perhaps most Muslims.

These traditions are targetted as heretical and blasphemous by the most orthodox and the most ectremist.

As in all religions strict adherence to doctrine is seen as a pathway to live right and avoid wrong by some more than others.

You must remember that (particulrly orthodox) Sunni Islam is a religion (much like mediaeval Christianity) of orthodopraxy rather than orthodoxy.

It is the function of religious law (Sharia in its legal form) to police behaviour eradicate sin and punish blasphemy.

The Koran and the Sunnah are the basis of divine law Sharia but the legal reasoning (fiqh) of the Muslim jurist (ulema or faqawah does not always interperate the Shariah in the same way (there are 4 schools of muslim jurisprudence in Sunni Islam).

The religious ruling of the jurist is a decision in accordance with divine law but is not itself sacred 9some important wiggle room).

Bear in mind that an individual need not personally repent a sin as in divine law all sins are also crimes.

Crimes against God (sins) can be punished directly by the deity but the day to day business of enforcing his holy writ is left to the virtuous jurists and their delegated authority.

SueR

“st as a matter of interest, could someone (like Mettaculture) tell me/us how a Muslim who has sinned can redeem him/herself. I mean a Catholic can make a confession, a Protestant can repent, a Jew can perform certain rituals, so what does an erring Muslim do”

By repenting to God -unless the sin involved violating the rights of others in which case a he/she must redress the wrong done

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=844&CATE=3

KB Player
“I think “multiculturalism” to many people just means “interesting food” and “colourful clothing”. It’s the tourist’s view of a city.”

I agree. By observation, I came to the view that multiculturalism was most popular with people who lived in secure, predominantly white, districts who encountered people of other races when they went to see their doctor or dentist. They worked strenuously to put their children beyond the more obvious reaches of the multicultural classroom, confining their experience of other cultures to the television or holidays in beach resorts.

In its appeal multiculturalism was on the level of ‘one world’ Coca Cola advertising, or Disneyland. A fantasy place where everything and everybody could be as ‘one’ and all questions were known and there were no problems apart from the sun going in now and then and a shortage of ice cream.

Unfortunately (or not) childhood ends and we have to realise that life in a complex society requires a certain toughness, give and take but not abandonment, not renunciation by force, of argument or otherwise, of our cherished ideals. Life is about cases – what we feel we want for ourselves, for our society and what we do not.

It is sometimes advanced (by the BBC and Channel Four most completely) that there is no such thing as ‘Britishness’. This is quite wrong. Indeed, the history of Britain is contestable, particularly the personality dominated stream; but modern Britain is an identifiable culture and that arose not because of Henry this or Good Queen that, but through the nineteenth and twentieth century struggles for and by working people and the creation in recent times of a modernist, pluralistic, society, a remarkable construction and a resilient one. It is this modernist Britain which has been challenged by multiculturalism through a warping relativist ‘narrative’ in recent years and that is why I opposed it.

”
Who are we talking about here? Do we mean Catholics with their seedy priesthood or polygamous Mormons or maybe Plymouth Brethren whose women are expected to cover their heads for modesty? Or is it only non-whites that we’re concerned about?”

Clearly you mean that, and all of these groups ( and evangelicals in the US) are fair game for attacks by Guardian reading liberals, despite being someone else’s culture. So much for multiculturalism, and left wing tolerance. It is clearly wank. The “liberal” has merely learned fashionable cultures he cannot attack, so he moves onto attack other different cultures, including one which has a longer provenance of de jure discrimination in the united Kingdom than any other ( Catholicism) - to this day, in fact - and has certainly been more discriminated against than Islam in this country,

So wank. Not that you shouldn’t criticise Catholicism but that you should stop trying to pretend that there are historically bigoted reasons why people might criticise “non-whites” ( rather than have real problems with the existing culture of Islam, hinduism etc. regardless of race) when your criticism of a long maligned minority religion could be met with the same charges, and with bells on. Right back at ya ( and, of course, Irish catholics weren’t actually considered white in the 19th century, nor Polish Catholics by the Nazis).

In any case criticism of Catholicism is not circumspect in the US either, where it is the majority religion of non-white immigration. Even greater wank there.

And yes Catholicism should be criticisied. Every day. And islam. more so. since you are happy with the former be happy with the latter.