Harry’s Place

‘For good or ill, the flag is one of the nation’s great assets. It is something we can all look at - regardless of our other divisions ‘

The Union Flag - or as it is known in Ireland, ‘The Butcher’s Apron’

In Amsterdam the black and yellow flag of the port of Amsterdam flies everywhere, celebrating the city’s history as the heart of a great trading nation. Maybe we need something similar for London?

This site has all the flags associated with London historically including the City of London flag, Port of London flag and the GLC coat of arms

http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/gb-lond.html

There is only a logo shown for the GLA and a letter from Iain Sumner, 16 September 2003, which says:

“I’ve been in touch with the Mayor’s Office recently about their flag, and the reply was that the London Assembly does not have a flag, and there are no plans to introduce one at the moment.”

Maybe Boris could introduce one.

Hmmm….as an Anglo-Ulster-Irish-Scot (place in any order you like) who has spent more time living in England than any other country, I feel much happier and more comfortable with the English flag than I do with the UK one, actually, because of the imperial history and oppression (oh, not least in Ireland, but in many other places too) associated with the former.. It’d be good to see the English flag flying with the same cultural, rather than political, resonance, that the Scottish flag has long been flown in Scotland.

I like Mrs Ben’s suggestion for a London/GLA flag…
(another chance to bang on about decentralisation, again) - off the top of my head the only part of England that I can think really has its own flag is Cornwall

“latter” not “former”: the Union Jack not the St George’s is the one that feels oppressive (and looks less attractive besides)

Unfortunately the cross of St George is even more firmly associated with morons than the union flag.

All the more reason to reclaim it then if that is so (and I dispute that that is the case)

Obviously a proportion of people who vote BNP do so because they are racist. However, the worrying increase in popularity is surely in part down to frustrations (both real and imagined) about supposed preferential treatment of immigrants through the welfare and housing systems.

For an interesting perspective on the alienation and marginalisation of the white working class, see “The New East End: Kinship Race and Conflict”. And though it pains me to link to her, Ms Bunting has a good take on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/feb/13/socialexclusion.conservatives

Basically, the BNP is capitalising on misinformation (i.e. myths about preferential treatment for immigrants) and also what appear to be genuine (well-intentioned) biases in the system which do sometimes put white working class people at a disadvantage. What doesn’t help is that when people do feel at a disadvantage (for whatever reasons), they are told they are just racist.

BNP gains surely reflect the fact that a lot of people don’t feel they are being represented by the major political parties. What is needed is more work to counter the myths and anecdotal ‘evidence’ that the system is completely biased against the white working class, as well as a free and frank discussion about the systems that are in place, and whether there are aspects to them that, however good the motivation for their inception, are making tensions worse, not better.

The government is starting, very slowly, to cotton on to this, but discussions on

oops

discussions on these issues get hijacked very quickly into screaming matches over someone basically ‘doing the BNP’s work’ for them (cf Ken and Trevor Phillips).

“Or we can just give it to the nazis…”

Are you being serious with this comment? If you are this for me is one of the problems with the response to the BNP - either toothless protests that border on the hysterical or calling them things which they really aren’t, which discredits any further real criticisms.

Rather than trying to engage people who vote BNP, the left seems happier to simply write them off, or ignore the concerns, real or imagined, they might have.

Every country has a history. Every flag has had a part of a painful history, of strive, of conquest, of civil war, of despotism and tyrany. But like it or not, this is our country and this our flag. In the past it has fluttered over shameful colonialist masacres, but it has also led the charge against fascism. At various times, it has been a symbol of oppression and liberation. What is important is what we make of it.

An SNP MSP recently called the Union Flag the “butcher’s apron”. Yeah, because all the soldiery was recruited from south of the Tweed.

On the BNP I agree with Ed’s comments on understanding voters concerns and address them. We discuss inclusion and it seems we exclude working class people just because they read the Sun. They too want decent housing, education and health services.

On flags, I know that Haringey has a flag (based on the radio signals from Alexandra Palace) and the Cities of York and Lincoln have one (like the City of London based on the St George’s cross). Maybe there are complicated rules of heraldry but couldn’t the GLA just use the City of London version of the St George’s cross?

off the top of my head the only part of England that I can think really has its own flag is Cornwall

Working in Kent over the past few years I have been surprised to see how many places fly the prancing white horse with the word “invicta”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Kent

I think Mrs B is right that London city hall should have a flag that is associated with the capital rather than one associated with the British state (which they can happily fly over parliament and Downing St.)

“I think Mrs B is right that London city hall should have a flag that is associated with the capital rather than one associated with the British state (which they can happily fly over parliament and Downing St.)”

Why not fly both? London is, of course, The Capital, and it should be symbolised as such. Many outside of London suspect that we Londoners think of ourselves as a City-State, apart and aloof from the rest of the United Kingdom.. I don’t think that’s good.

By all means let City Hall fly a London flag (oh! but please let it not be designed by a committee of public sector employees: I think Johnson’s High Tory side and implicit affection for medievalism might count in our favour here, actually), the English flag, the UK flag, and the EU flag (or any combination thereof - which perhaps would vary on different occasions).

This sort of thing - multiple allegiances, multiple loyalties, from the local to the transnational - is widely understood and accepted as normal in many parts of Europe.

re the Union Jack: the point is that it is NOT the flag of England. It is the flag of the UK, and contains references to Scotland and Ireland (the crosses of SS Andrew & Patrick).

Now, while the Union is an admirable thing and while I would oppose its breakup - not least as it constrains nationalism within each unit thereof, it seems to me that the problem with English nationalism (or rather British nationalism within England), as in its own way with Russian nationalism, is that it has tended, whether consciously or unconsciously, to aspire to control other territories and subjugate other peoples.

Something that celebrates England AS ENGLAND, rather than as the imperial or union heartland of other territories is surely to be encouraged.

“As my husband quipped, shouting “BNP! BNP! RACIST! RACIST! RACSIT!” is unlikey to stop anyone voting BNP because there surely cannot be anyone who doesn’t already know that.”

I know that BNP is racist, even though I was in Britain only once, for all of three hours. However, if you run around calling everyone who is not a part of your little self-annointed political clique a “racist” as well, it tends to dilute the effect.

BTW, the Union Jack gives me the warm fuzzies and makes my heart throb even harder. Please save it from the crazies.

The issue of flying the flag does not swing voters to the BNP. No-one really cares about it until someone makes a fuss.

I live in a ward that was, until last week, BNP controlled. The main reason the BNP has been successful in my town largely boils down to class, not race. The BNP’s strongest support comes from working-class former Labour voters who regard the Conservatives as toffs and the Liberals as irrelevant. The only other alternative is the residents association, which has competently run the town council for years. But voting for them is not regarded as having that killer blow for Labour. They want to create a hysterical reaction from Labour to punish them and voting BNP is a shock and awe tactic. In fact, the BNP leaflets call on voters to vote for them to protest and punish Labour.

There is no competition for housing with immigrants where I live. We and the South African family next door are the only ethnic minorities in the street and there are only a handful of non-white people in the entire ward. The problems of housing locally are entirely down to “right to buy”, a situation that the government has failed to address.

Added to this is a deep hatred of Gordon Brown. I am surprised at how much local people loathe him: “the fucking jock no-one elected”. Such contempt for the prime minister will be hard to overcome with new policy ideas.

The BNP was defeated locally in two of the three wards it was defending because of a concerted effort by parties opposing it - notably the residents association and the Conservatives - to go out, work hard and campaign for votes. This is what the electorate wants. They need people knocking on their doors and listening to them. It makes them feel engaged. Far too much money is being spent on public relations and developing a glossy facade and little time is spent on the grunt work of canvassing and leafletting. Of course, that means valuing your party membership and, as far as Labour is concerned, party morale is at a terminal low because of the shoddy way the leadership has treated them. If Labour wants to engage with the people, it first has to engage with its activists.

“It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card”

And exclude all the hundreds of thousand undocumented workers who keep the capital running? The BNP would love that!

“As my husband quipped, shouting “BNP! BNP! RACIST! RACIST! RACIST!” is unlikey to stop anyone voting BNP because there surely cannot be anyone who doesn’t already know that.”

Funnily enough, I had just this argument with a colleague recently. “Surely the BNP aren’t racist”, he opined “They’re just proud to be British”.

“And exclude all the hundreds of thousand undocumented workers who keep the capital running? The BNP would love that!”

You wanna incentivise people to vote to keep out the BNP or you wanna play gesture politics?

““Surely the BNP aren’t racist”, he opined “They’re just proud to be British”.”

Perhaps people want to be proud to be British. Perhaps that’s why Labour’s ‘Cool Britania’ period was so successful. So perhaps by hauling down the flag and giving people 100 reasons to be ashamed of being British, many of the left-wing ‘alternatives’ to the BNP actually drive voters towards them.

As I said on Pickled Poltitcs t’other day, re the BNP “being proud to be British”

Barnbrook’s speech at City Hall makes him look like some kind of plotting nihilist baddy from a Dostoyevsky novel (which is about right, actually): he actually gives the impression (again, not inaccurately) of being, not a patriotic nationalist who loves all that is best about Britain, but rather the stereotypical far-leftist radical who wants to destroy it: the sort of type that “Middle England” would get up in arms about, not their hoped-for salvation.

(Mind you, the bit where he attempted to defend the honour of the ballarina could have been quite touching)

Many outside of London suspect that we Londoners think of ourselves as a City-State, apart and aloof from the rest of the United Kingdom.. I don’t think that’s good.

But the point is that London, while traditionally being the centre of power in the country always HAS had a seperate identity of its own (check the history of the city in the civil war for a good example) and I don’t care what people in Newcastle or Bolton think about that!

Flying the Union Jack over City hall would seem to me to imply that the Mayor of London had a role on the stage of international politics as well - the last thing you would have wanted I would think!

The old LCC were not afraid to put this up everywhere.

http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/gb-lond.html#lcc

It still survives on many older estates, Somehow in the seventies London’s own identity was surpressed.

It’s not very inspiring as a flag, though, is it?

BNP voters (as opposed to the BNP) just want Labour to pay them some attention. These are the white working class who have failed to become middle class and are no longer workers in the traditional sense. They are not upwardly mobile, they have stayed where they were, at the bottom of the social pile; only the work’s gone, the pride in the work has gone, the ‘dignity of labour’ has gone, and now the worker’s party, that dignified the working man, Labour, has gone posh. They are actually angry - not at blacks - but at Stupid White People, like New Labour, who introduce policies like multiculturalism and the council officials who implement them in the most stupid and partisan ways.

They are also anti-Scottish and hate New Labour for all the Scots in senior positions.

Seems the final insult, actually, us ‘tartan wogs’ ruling over them.

It’s not very inspiring as a flag, though, is it?

It has a crown and water - what more do you want? Gog and Magog playing ping-pong?

“However, the worrying increase in popularity is surely in part down to frustrations (both real and imagined) about supposed preferential treatment of immigrants through the welfare and housing systems.”
It is not supposed. A relation of mine by marriage got a house within days.
My immigrant wife has said to me more than once - for example about quotas for ethnic minorities on quangos- it seems like they are trying to help the racists. I think she could be right.

I think it is dangerous, counterprodutice and facile to reduce the BNP vote to mere racist sentiments.

They represent two things:
1) blue-collar revolt.
2) disgust with uncaring, apatride elites.

The BNP are in direct competition with Labour for votes; I’d wager most of those who switched to the Far Right during the London elections are disgruntled Labour voters.

Now, that isn’t to say that the BNP aren’t racist…they are… it’s just that those voting for them are doing so out of sentiments of alienation and rejection, and NOT racism per se.

Strategies such as ‘rock against racism’, then, are far wide of the Far Right target and are born of an inability to know working people, an ignorance of their worries and concerns, not to mention sheer intellectual laziness.

In short, such tactics are elitist.

What’s worse, they may even be interpreted by those they’re aimed at, disgruntled working people, as a direct attack, thereby heightening the sense of alienation AND support for the BNP

Raising the flag issue, one centered on Britishness, makes for good strategy.

In fact, the BNP probably aims to expropriate much of The Left’s agenda AND narrative.

They’ll have the talk, but not the walk.

Labourites should see their recent gains as a wake up call, an opportunity to review and to reflect on where the party is going.

Because voting BNP is a sign of exasperation, not racism.

We can all hate the BNP - but we need them! Think of the BNP as that red warning zone on your social cohesion dial. When it flags red and the BNP get some seats then you know there is something wrong that is not addressed by the main political parties. If the vote comes from people who see an erosion of their culture by immigrant populations by way of changes in the character of their high street by a dominance of shops and people from an original non-white background then they will express their fears by the opportunity to vote BNP. However, I suspect none of them voted BNP because of China Town around Gerrard Street or because of Hassidic Jews in Golders Green/Hendon or Stamford Hill.

I think that anti-sectarianism will be one of the big vote winners in the next decade.

I don’t think “hating” the BNP (let alone those who vote for them) helps, actually: and as a native of one of their “heartlands”, all I can say, is, no thanks, we don’t need them. (and in B&D the loathsome Ms Hodge is every bit as much a part of the problem as the BNP)

And they may not be up in arms about the Chinese or Jews today - but they could be tomorrow. (Soho is hardly a typical London neighbourhood, and Golders Green and most parts of Hendon are hardly ridden with severe social problems or poverty in the way that most, but not all, of the places that the BNP get their support from generally all)

Their targets of opprobrium are “outsiders”, regardless of who they might be in any given time and place.

Obviously the (wilful?) neglect of the section of society who have turned to the BNP by the major parties - and especially Labour - is the major cause of the turn to extremism (which, however, one should not overstate the extent of which)

eg - go and look in detail at the results of the elections to B&D council in 2006.

A more freakish set of local elections in London you will be hard placed to find. Labour were the only party to run full slates of candidates across the borough, the Tories barely bothered (or were able to bother) in many places (including some of those wards on the Becontree estate where the BNP were hard at work), Lib Dems stood 2 (out of 51) candidates, and UKIP outpolled the Tories in several wards.

I find it extrodinary that there is an issue over flying the flag of the United Kingdom over the City Hall of the country’s capital city.

I find it pretty irrelevant whether or not a Union flag is flown over City Hall. Why should it be?

If only you agreed to a binational state with France, you wouldn’t have any more of these problems, and would be finally accepted in the Middle East… sorry, in Europe.

I think that anti-sectarianism will be one of the big vote winners in the next decade.

If so, the article below could serve as a starting point. It highlights that very same cowardice so crucial to the Far right’s chances of ’success’.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/losing-our-spines-to-save_b_100132.html

Benji’s right, the flag is irrelevant, but Barnbrook achieved his aim, he wanted to stir up publicity and a debate, and people gladly conceded the political ground to him.

does it improve London services to have a flag over the GLA? does it give people a warm fuzzy feeling? and how much would it cost to maintain?

it is an irrelevance to a majority of Londoners and let’s the BNP set the agenda, which isn’t advisable

what next ? standing up for a round of “God save the Queen” before every meeting?

I believe there are those that don’t think that BNP is at all racist, but that they have been slandered by the press. Obviously this seems ridiculous after exposes such as The Secret Agent (or indeed their Party Manifesto) but if one feels marginalised then one is likely to support marginalised parties. The government and local authorities need, at least attempt, to address the concerns of voters, without giving undue lenience to the bigots and charlatans of the BNP.

If you want to fight fascism you have to fight it’s ideas and policies. What’s interesting though is what is happening: the main parties are ceding the BNP ground on some key policies - it can legitimately claim to have influence. Whether or not the flag should waved is one of their issues; but it should be pretty irrelevant.

Protesting against the election of a BNP councilor seemed to be a protest against democracy itself. Like it or not, 5.6% of our fellow-Londoners had spoken, however incoherently and stupidly, and shouting “BNP-RACIST” outside City Hall seemed like so much impotent rage.

Well, don’t go to anti-fascist demos then Brett, if you feel uncomfortable at them.

It’s a demo against white supremacist ideology; against racism; against fascism and against violence.

Not surprising you forget about the simple word with the big meaning: solidarity.

Solidarity with your fellow human being actually threatened by fascism and racism; the ones most in the front line, those with non-white skins. Not you.

You equivocation is interesting.

OMG! no more abeyance!!!! Saucerful of secretations is back!!!
I am so happy!

Why is Benjamin not banned? He has his own blog now.

(applauds benji)

Benjamin,

You equivocation is interesting.

So Brett goes to an anti-racist demo (which I suspect is more than Benji did this weekend in the ongoing battle againt racism) and gets an “interesting” becasue Benji wilfully ignores Brett’s main point that the demo should have happenbed earlier?

So far, so fucking stupid.

Of course, what Benji means is that he thinks Brett’s “equivocation” tells us something about Brett’s commitment to anti-racism i.e. he’s not very committed at all. Like all cowards, Benji won’t say what he actually means, and instead hides behind “interesting”.

If you have a shred of integrity and deceny, you’ll withdraw the implied insult and apologise. No, I’m not holding my breath.

Benjamin, you’re a fucking moron, and the reason the left always looses. Because token and ineffective gestures seem more important. If you can go home “feeling good” then it matters not whether you’ve actually achieved anything. Let’s all just have a big catharctic group hug and a cry until next time…

… or maybe we can work out where the strategy fails time and again and fix it. Shouting “racist! racist!” at a glass building is not a productive use of time when the culprits - those actually responsible for putting a nazi into city hall - are 150,000 anonymous Londoners out of earshot.

Having read the prvious posts to this blog, I would like to add a comment or two. Firstly, I love the Union Flag and would like to see it flying from every building in the land. I can’t understand the desire by some to break up the Union. Regarding the history of both the flag and the Union: what’s past is past; lets get on with the future. The Union has worked for 300 hundred years and whilst I’m not one to claim that longevity should be a reason for resistance to change, I would suggest that the advocates of breaking up the Union are a very small number - as has been evidenced byt a recent poll in Scotland.
Regarding the BNP, its critics should be more aware of the reasons why that Party is attracting a measure of support. If the BNP claims are inaccurate then the government of the day should respond to belie the claims. No government, alas, has ever responded to critical comment. I am not attracted to the BNP but have to concede that some of their concerns appear to me to be valid. I would disagree that they draw their support solely from the white working class; their major complaint about immigration and its consequences is shared by many from different walks of life.

How does going on a demonstration in front of City Hall with some members of small irrelevant Trotskyite parties, which cannot get elected under their own names, show “solidarity” with anybody?

You can best show solidarity with people under attack by helping them to survive and resist discrimination and vilification.

I’d put standing shoulder to shoulder with your neighbours well above turning up on a demo, in the company of members of Socialist Action and the SWP - who were the ones who organised this demo, btw - to shout inanities against some fascists who weren’t even there!!!

And if I were to go on a demo against racism, I think I’d prefer not to go on one organised by Socialist Action (a bunch of white people who lynched Trevor Phillips, and were paid out of the public purse for doing so) or the SWP (who have been touring Gilad Atzmon around the country).

Because, frankly, they’re not best qualified to preach about racism.

Fabian,

in case you hadn’t noticed, the UK is already a tri (at least)-national state, and London is now one of the biggest French cities (about 500,000 French folk here).

But, anyway, lets do it, cool idea. We could call uit somethign crazy likle “the European union” or something.

Benjamin, you’re a fucking moron, and the reason the left always looses.

Thanks for the personal insult, Brett, complete with the spelling mistake; I always regard such a quick recourse to personal attack as a sign of weakness or insecurity.

The left doesn’t always lose, and even if when it does, that’s certainly not my fault. If you don’t like to partake in demos against fascism and racism, and stand in solidarity with its victims, that’s your issue.

However, such demos are, without a doubt, one democrat outlet in a liberal democratic society, and the bigger the demo, the bigger the signal it sends.

Your arguments against such demos can be used against any demo against politicians. It’s a sort of quaint authoritarianism; they are elected, so don’t be rude, don’t make noise.

Yes, David T. But does the Decent Left ever go on a demo against anything or with anyone else? I would have thought the UK’s biggest fascist party would have been motivation enough. It seems like the usual pillow fights between the lefty groupscules are more important fights; Griffin will be chuckling about that.

One “partakes” of food, Benjamin. In events, one ‘participates’. I hope this tip helps you in your hobby as a wannabe English Master.

In the face of your tedious straw men, one is moved to - in a word plucked from my memory of high school spelling contests -’flaucinaucinihilipilification’.

I’ve been on many demonstration, Benji

I went on a couple last year, and earlier this year: in relation to Burma and Tibet. Amazingly, they weren’t organised by small totalitarian parties, with a record of promoting racism. There seemed to be quite a lot of Burmese and Tibetans on them too.

Put it this way. I am rather opposed to takfiri jihadism. However, I wouldn’t go on a demonstration organised by the BNP. Similarly, I woudn’t go on a demonstration organised by - and composed entirely of members of - SA and the SWP, for anything: including Mom’s Apple Pie.

That is because demonstrations by SA and the SWP are about building these dodgy, useless, and unpleasant organisations: and not about solidarity with anybody at all.

As you well know.

Don’t revert to “old Benji”, please!!

“In the face of your tedious straw men, one is moved to - in a word plucked from my memory of high school spelling contests -’flaucinaucinihilipilification’.”

Surely you mean floccinaucinihilipilification?

(Sorry)

Yes, such protests against the BNP are essentially worthless, as they will only lead citizens to feel that the party is being unfairly marginalised by the ‘liberal elite’ or ‘Guardistinias’. Johann Hari has a good column on the issue today: http://johannhari.com/index.php

I was in the NF in the 1970s. I’d say that most of the other members I met were resentful semi-skilled industrial workers with the occasional small-businessman up the back of the room. None of my relatives would have anything to do with the NF - they thought Tyndall was some Nazi clown. But in terms of racial bitterness they were just as entrenched as I was, and they were straight-down-the-line sullen Labour voters.

I get so bored with this modish Trot nonsense (see LL spin) that Barnbrook got up because Jack Straw and the Daily Mail’s campaigns on Britishness opened the floodgates, perhaps tricking confused proles who thought they were voting SWP and were thrown by the initials.

What partly worked against the NF in those days (vis a vis building mass appeal) was the obvious nuttiness of it all once you got inside - the conspiracy theories, winks about the Jews, negro brain capacities, etc. But that’s also a function of size - and if you can build a reasonably sized group then while to a certain extent those people are marginalised, the dangerous part - as I see it - is that the nuttiness sometimes carries over into more mainstream politics.

There is a world of difference, for example, between complaining about immigration policy and having some mystical pseudo-scientific racial theory that explains everything. If you look at the far-right in the States, particularly the anti-immigration far-right, you’ll see that the nutters have a profile they didn’t have 20 years back.

Barnbrook may or may not implode. I wouldn’t hold my breath. And I wonder how successful centrist social/liberal democrats can be completely eliminating the politics of irrationality on both sides. But I’m more inclined to look to campaigns like Hope Not Hate rather than a group of millenarian Trots to save us fascism.

But your argument is an odd one, Brett. Apart from your familiar, easy resort to insult, you are also seriously offering the notion that because politicians are elected, then demonstrating against them, their ideas or policies, is somehow illegitimate, or at least ridiculous.

Your notion is absurd of course: this would invalidate numerous valuable demos and protests in decades past. It’s a narrow and basically illiberal view. It’s not one that we hold on the edge of China. Faced with fascist or communists, public protests are another show of welcome and important dissent, and the more the merrier.

Why don’t you just say you don’t like going to demos anymore? That’s fair enough; we all grow old and tired, get weaker in the legs, and then we start tut-tutting at the younger ones.

I think (though I don’t wish to speak for him) that what is actually being suggested is that the vast majority of anti-BNP rallies are counterproductive. What good could possibly come of chanting ‘RACIST’ at a person, no matter how bigoted they may be. As I’ve said, I believe that such Ad hominem will only lead citizens to feel that the party is being unfairly marginalised. It would be far better to publicly expose their bigotry.

Fair enough, David T.

I suppose one could say the BNP is not too important, it’s likely they will fall flat on their unpleasant faces.

However, if they don’t, and their vote rises further, will you publicly protest against them? If so, how will you do so, if (as seems likely) socialists will be involved in the demos?

Benjamin, Brett specifically made an electoral argument against protesting the BNP; that the BNP had been elected. I don’t think this specific line of argument holds up. Politicians may be elected - that does not invalidate demos against them.

Engaging with people like Nobby would probably more productive than Demo’s Benji.

But your “left” have a great aversion to engaging with people like Nobby or those who might actually be tempted t vote BNP. They would rather do “jollies” than actually visit a council estate (when they eventually do, like Seymour at the last election) its all a bit of a shock to them.

Bingo, Benji S

And I think the point about the BNP “falling flat on their faces” is also an important one. They do abysmally in “power”: failing to turn up to council meetings, voting the wrong way, fighting and getting arrested, turning out to be black… and so on.

The real problem for Griffin is that he has had something like 4 years now of trying to “do a Fini”: i.e. rebrand as a modern nationalist party. He can’t do it, because EVERYBODY knows that - whatever the appeal of their policies - the BNP cadre are a bunch of sociopaths who are turned on by the thought of cruelty. This appeals to some, but not many.

Meanwhile, Griffin’s attempt at rebranding has resulted in him being branded a “race traitor” on white supremacist websites. He has also had to contend with a pretty nasty revolt by the BNP backroom boys, who just don’t like his style, or that of Collett.

The truth is, mainstream politics will always neutralise the far right in a way that the far left never can. The far left is all about winning the odd recruit to its membership. Mainstream politics is about actually winning elections.

Graham,

Well, I used to live in Welwyn Hatfield, Herts. Not exactly a council estate but full of folk being tempted to vote BNP. Some loved to complain about gypsies. They eventually voted the Tory in. One chap I knew talked in derogatory manner about the ‘blacks’ next door; and then inquired in a condescending way whether I had recently visited the synagogue. I hadn’t - I am not Jewish. He insisted I was (possibly because of my name), and that I had loads of money stashed in the bank. All rather odd.

That’s fairly sinister, Benjamin, but why would screaming “RACIST BNP” help them to realise that their grievances would be better expressed elsewhere?

Benji - did you try to persuade the locals that it was “all rather odd” or did you get on the phone to the SWP and import a coachload of weirdos that only served to reinforce what the local’s opinion of metroplolitan lefties already was?

I reckon the BNP is attracting votes from people who reckon they no longer have any representation among the main parties. There is a perception that the Left have lost interest in the blue collar working class. Folk who have no other choice but to send their kids to risibly poor state schools aren’t listening to leftist pols who can afford to send theirs to private schools, and do so. Folk whose pension funds have been raided for tax are not listening to champagne socialists with the finest gold-plated pension fund in the land. The tax system is starting to look like a state sanctioned heist. And the criminal justice system is a complete failure, releasing violent crooks back into the community with depressing regularity. No attempt is being made to control illegal immigration, or health tourism, or election fraud.
This all has a disproportionate effect on the low income working class, who will now have to go through another dismal means test to get back some of the tax that should never have been extorted from them in the blimmin first place. To pay for the things they may not have themselves.

But the only thing the Left cares about is racism, having rock concerts, and standing on a stage with Bono pledging huge sums of taxpayers money for poverty relief in Africa.

Meanwhile, the BNP have scored in an open goal.

There is a large constituency of law abiding, working families who are utterly teed-off with being treated like the enemy, because they are white, or vaguely christian(ish), working class, self-reliant taxpayers. The Left has been treating them like a form of pollution for far too long. No-one should be surprised now the chickens are coming home to roost.

“But, anyway, lets do it, cool idea. We could call uit somethign crazy likle “the European union” or something.” (Red Deathy)

Sure thing, Red. The day the French vote in your elections for Parliament I will eat my kippa.

“There is a perception that the Left have lost interest in the blue collar working class.”

I don’t think class is as clear-cut as blue and white collars. BNP wards in my area are not p