Harry’s Place

What’s missing? Those seem like three possible outcomes, though I rather doubt the second possibility.

No, TheHeilie, there is a fourth option, for those of us who don’t subscribe to the world view that says that everything that happens in the Middle East is all America and Israel’s fault:

End of external intervention in Lebanese affairs (including Iranian and Syrian).

Unlikely, due to the cynicism of the leaderships in Tehran and Damascus. But wouldn’t it be best for the Lebanese people if the Iranians and Syrians didn’t use their country as a venue for proxy warfare?

Situation resolved peacefully perhaps?

Perhaps the Irie agrees with the SSNP fighters in Beirut,who believe Lebanon is part of Syria.
Lebanon needs to be protected from the Zionists by Syria,thats how the argument goes.

I don’t think genocidal extermination by the part of the US and Israel is a realistic possibility, at least for now.

Well, there is the off-chance that (since we have Decent governments in power in UK and France) that the Left of the West could be stirred to actually take an interest in Arabs killing Arabs. However, given the Left’s history on this subject (Iran-Iraq War, Sudanese genocide, Rwanda, Civil War in Palestine, Chechnya) I am not exactly holding my breath.

Regards,

Inna

Hi I’m new to these posts, so I’m not sure who Flanker is or what he means here - is he being ironic or is his nom de plum here Cockney rhyming slang for what he actually is? By the way, doesn’t victory of the Hizbollah opposition imply both civil war and Syrian-cum-Iranian intervention?

Inna, I think you’ll find that Rwanda and Chechnya did not involve Arabs killing Arabs and neither did the Iran-Iraq war.

Godman Star, *I* think you’ll find there was no such stipulation in Inna’s comment (and that if you consider a randomly selected non-Kurdish Iraqi to be Arab, you might as well do the same for eastern Iranians).

And TheIrie’s comment beggars belief.

Flanker is an attention seeking individual who thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

Western Iranians, that is.

Reichstag, wa-wa, mummy potty.

Godman–

You’re right. And in fact one of the reasons the Iran-Iraq war was so popular in the Arab Middle East is that this particular war involved Arabs killing Persians. (And Sunnis killing Shi’i)

But the fact remains that there have been millions killed in the Middle East in the twentieth century. Possibly even a billion or two by now. The Left really does not care about any of that.

No, the only conflict that interests the Left at all is one involving Jews. (No, I don’t buy the whole “it’s just criticism of Israel” line).

Regards,

Inna

Albert,

Flanker is the pseudonym of a Venezuelan, a member of the English speaking elite with high speed Internet access, probably in the top 5-16% and a solid, uncritical supporter of Hugo Chavez.

In terms of politics, if hypothetically Chavez said that all bananas were blue, then Flanker would spend his time arguing over what shade of magenta they really were

On the world stage, Flanker alternates between blaming the US, UK, the West and of course, Israel for the world’s ills, his favourite expression is “Neo-con” and when not posturing over “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” Flanker is essentially a spoilt nihilist.

sometimes people will parody Flanker’s views and it is hard to tell what they really are, as he’s so negative.

All you need to know about Flanker is recorded here:

Harry’s Place

Thanks everyone for the info on Flanker… Just another point here, Khuzistan is a province in Iran made up of ethnic Arabs. Roughly one million people were killed in the Iran-Iraq war; as Iran’s mullahs singled out children and religious and ethnic minorities to do the war’s dirty work, I’m sure a good number of Iranian Arabs either killed or were killed by Iraqi Arabs… Flanker, here’s something for you: ¿porque no te callas?

Inna-

‘But the fact remains that there have been millions killed in the Middle East in the twentieth century. Possibly even a billion or two by now. The Left really does not care about any of that.’

Reaaaalllly, appoaching a billion, as in nine decimal places. Wow. MSM have been busy covering up that

‘No, the only conflict that interests the Left at all is one involving Jews.’

I must have missed the Jewish influence in Darfur (I haven’t been listening to enough MPAC, i guess), Burma, Tibet, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kashmir, Chechnya, Zaire(DRC) and North Korea. As I have read well informed leftist commentary on all these issues, without mentioning the US (that bully at the behest of Jude) either. I shall carefully re-read.

I hope that the US, France (as ex-colonial power, it bizarrely seems to matter on the ground) and the rest of the EU back the government to the hilt. Hezbollah are a canker on the lives of the Lebonese, whilst the SSNP are pretty much straight reincarnations of the Arrow Cross (I don’t throw the fascist label about either). That is the verdict of my left.

Violence is never a good or moral choice, alas it is the sole vernacular of such Manicheans as Hezbollah and the SSNP. The greatest pity

“Flanker, here’s something for you: ¿porque no te callas?”

Jajajajaja….

“MSM have been busy covering up that”

They haven’t covered it up at all.

Iran-Iraq War: 1 million people dead

Hama massacre: 30,000 people dead

Black September (Jordan, 1970): The official Jordania figure is 3,400
people dead; Arafat said 20,000 people dead.

Chechnya: Unknown. The Russians won’t let anyone in.

Sudan: 2 million dead and counting

Rwanda: 800,000 people dead

Kurds: 50,000-100,000 dead.

And I am missing many victims (the everyday victims of totalitarianism. Saddam murdered 20 of his own family members for example; the regular everyday murders in Lebanon). All of this was reported in the media.

It’s just that no-one really cares.

Regards,

Inna

socialrepublican:

I listed (off of the top of my head) over 4 million dead in since 1970.

No Jewish influence (or Jews) were involved in any of this.

And (as a direct result IMO) the Left did not ONCE take to the streets in protest. (An exception is happening here in the US where liberal Jews are organizing around Sudan. But since the Left has so firmly shut its door on Jews, I am not sure that even counts.)

Regards,

Inna

I saw Jeremy Bowen on the news taking cover from gunfire coming from one or other of the belligerent groups. But so far he hasn’t done one of his Blue Peter style “oh the humanity” pieces to camera. And I don’t think he will, because the way Lebanon has been fucked up by the Iranian and Syrian fascists is not news that fits in to the BBC’s agenda these days.

It seems a bit unfair to blame the Western Left/Liberals for the Muslims bloodthirsty, expansionist routs. Whu doesn’t Inna ask the Muslim websites what they are doing to help their brothers and sisters?

Sue–

I am not blaming the Western Left for the bloodshed; only for the indifference to the bloodshed. As for asking Arab nations to do their part–Condi did just that not terribly long ago (she asked the Arab nations to give money tot he Palestinians). This was a very newsworthy (i.e., unusual) event.

Regards,

Inna

Can someone explain to me why the Lebanese army is remaining “neutral”?

To whom does the Lebanese military answer? Crimony. If the local civilian police forces can’t maintain order in the streets then why the hell isn’t the military ordered> to step in?

The Lebanese wine making industry is the oldest in the world. They are still making (very good) wine in the Lebanon (in the Beqaa valley). If you want to support Lebanese wine makers, and their economy, buy some Lebanese wine. Lebanese wines are available online from, among others, Handford wines (www.handford.net) who have import directly from local vineyards, and no, this doesn’t make them absurdly expensive.

Boogski,

Although I find that the more I think I know about Lebanese politics, the more I realise that I know less (if that makes sense), I THINK I am correct in saying that the Lebanese army is answerable to the President….as you may well know Lebanon has not had a president for several months, and doesn’t look as though it will be getting one imminently… (constitutional impasse)

Although given both the perpetually fragile social situation in Lebanon, and the repeated and exceptionally obnoxious way that the country’s neighbours habitually behave towards it (and have absolutely no shame about using violence and murder to interfere in it whenever it suits their interests), part of me thinks that an understated approach may yet prove to be more sensible and acceptable, in the long run, than an aggressively belligerent one.

Reigniting a civil war would be the worse thing that could be done.
And I daresay that Hezbollah might be quite amenable to that consequence. All the more reason to take a restrained approach and seek a political, not a military, solution - and one that works in the long-term, not in the short-term… I don’t think responding to a provocation with escalation would be smart, even if blood-thirsty armchair generals elsewhere in the world might fancy such a course of action, safe from the consequences.

(Although, as I say, the more I think I know about Lebanese politics, the more I find there still is to learn)

Thank you for your response Ven. I should have known the Lebanese had no president but I didn’t. I can see where that would complicate things.

This kind of situation is totally foreign to me. To me, it’s the equivalent of some other nation supporting one of the kooky militias we have here in the States (yes, we have them too). But even our kooky militias are bound by the same laws that a normal person is bound by. In other words, it’s against the law to have a fucking RPG in your possession. And if you’re caught with one, you’re fucked.

Maybe I’m being chauvinistic but is it too much to ask that my neighbor doesn’t have military grade weapons in his basement? Or am I expected to just understand that it’s a different culture with different rules?

Its just not the left that is not concerned as long as just non-Westerners fighting and killing each other, it is the world in general.
Even the India-Pakistani conflict over Kashmir is generally ignored and does not get a fourth of the coverage that the Arab-Israeli conflict recieves, even though unlike in case of Israel and the Arabs, both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons. For at least the last ten years, their conflict over Kashmir has been considered the regional conflict most likely to result in a nuclear war. Also the Kashmir conflict has radicalized at least as many Muslims as the Arab-Israeli conflict. And yet, because both India and Pakistan are considered non-Western, it is generally ignored by the outside world.

Note: Can we just refer to non-Westerners, particularly if they use to be Colonial subjects as Natives. It would make clear the sort of Paternal Racism that the West in general regards non-Western Peoples and avoid the Hypocracy of pretending that we regard them as our Equals when we do not.

Inna: “An exception is happening here in the US where liberal Jews are organizing around Sudan.” A handful of liberal Christians are also involved.

For all Americans who are interested in joining the effort to end the genocide of the people of Darfur, please sign the petition at the Save Darfur website, http://www.savedarfur.org/page/content/Protection and sign the letter addressed to President Bush urging him to use America’s being President of UN Security Council for June to push forward the deployment of UN Peackeepers in Darfur. And if you are in the Washington DC area please come out this Sunday, May 18th to demonstrate in front of the Chinese Embassy from 1 PM to 2 PM to protest China’s backing of the murderous Sudanese Regime.
Thank You

Note: Can we just refer to non-Westerners, particularly if they use to be Colonial subjects as Natives. It would make clear the sort of Paternal Racism that the West in general regards non-Western Peoples and avoid the Hypocracy of pretending that we regard them as our Equals when we do not.

You’re more than welcome to self-flagellate, David All. Count me out. I wasn’t there. I’ve seriously considered tracing my ‘roots’ to find out if I have any “native” American in me so I get some of that casino money. :D

“Bomb Blasts Kill Dozons in Indai: Police say 60 Dead as 7 Bombs Rip Through Crowded Parts of Western Indian City” of Jaipur. See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/13/world/main4091578.shtml for whole story.

Boogski: I have similar desires to get in on that same racket!

Note: I do not regard my “modest proposal” as self-flagellating, just a matter of honesty.

suspicion quickly fell on Islamic militant groups blamed for a string of attacks in India in recent years.

Surprise! Not.

Just keep repeating to yourself “Islam is a religion of peace” and these atrocities will eventually go away.

Note: I do not regard my “modest proposal” as self-flagellating, just a matter of honesty.

Well yes. Western countries have been imperialistic in the past, but I see nothing resembling that behavior today. And anyways, you can’t get away with it what with the internet and all. :D

Inna-

Sorry to have to deconstruct this but:-

“But the fact remains that there have been millions killed in the Middle East in the twentieth century” (Undeniable as your geographically quirky list, Rwanda in the middle east indeed, makes out)

“Possibly even a billion or two by now” (Thus a billion in the middle east, that is where I disagree unless real deaths have been reduced in reports by a factor of a hundred or so)

“The Left really does not care about any of that” (The left should not be jugded as a monolith as I tried to make clear by saying ‘That is the verdict of my left’, the important term here being MY)

Following on-

“No, the only conflict that interests the Left at all is one involving Jews” (That is plainly not true even for much of the hardest of Anti-Imperialist fantascists, The US is their bete-noire as the reposistory of ‘Capitalism Tm’ and as I mentioned there are hundreds of articles, organisations and events on the left that deal with conflicts and crisises entirely gentile in their composition.)

That is not to say that much of the left is not still in hoc to non-reflextive meta-narratives that produce such turgid moments as BUSH=HITLER and ‘We are all Hezbollah now’.At points such as these, such ‘leftists’ are sacrificing the very essense of the left, that of human emacipation beyond fancy franchise and Pareto/Mosca-esque elites, beyond gender, race, wealth, culture and geography. Just as bad, they parrot the group think idiocy that is the opposite of free human expression. They are the idiot left

This need for a litany of grand division between eternal poles of good and bad, according to rules set down by idiots in 1917 or 1933 or 1793 is a poison on the left. The left must come to terms with the Archipelago and the little red book and the evil in Torah Bora caves, no doubt. But that is done by an original act of thought, not of cathartic condemnation.

The Left is worthy saving, from all those TINA fuckers who think history started in 1979 and ended in 1989, from parroting retards like Flanker or even more disturbing from Strasserites like Wright and Exile. It is a epitomological challenge as well as one of policy. I think HP and its ‘left’ as well as Andrew Adams, Andrew Coates, Conor Foley, Dave Osler even some of the CT crowd have a role to play.

A multiplicity of ‘Lefts’, a democracy of ‘Lefts’ would be a fine thing. Monoliths are like driving a JagdTiger around York, pointless and a bitch to reverse

‘as I mentioned there are hundreds of articles, organisations and events on the left that deal with conflicts and crisises entirely gentile in their composition’ - should make clear I mean the conflicts are entirely gentile, not the organisations.

‘An exception is happening here in the US where liberal Jews are organizing around Sudan’ - I believe that at least some Gentiles have put away their Goldhagen-esque anti-semitism and campaigned against Sudan’s Chinese backed campaign of ethnic cleansing

“I believe that at least some Gentiles have put away their Goldhagen-esque anti-semitism and campaigned against Sudan’s Chinese backed campaign of ethnic cleansing”

Social–

There are indeed. And more each day. The trouble is: 1) they tend to join organizations that M & W would probably call part of the Zionist Lobby. (A very devout Christian lady and her friends who are involved in that effort go to the local synagogue to hear speakers, donate, etc. Now, it’s possible that my personal experience is unique but… In addition quite a number of the gentiles who are joining are not actually of the left. Indeed, quite a number are of the religious right. I don’t know if this is because the left has shut its door on the Jews so decisively or because Sudan is just “not interesting” or what.)

And yes, the Left is worth saving. The trouble is–with each passing day, an increasing number of leftists (good, decent, thoughtful people) feel the need to get “their card punched” by “coming out” against Zionism (Jews). Hari did that just the other day.

He got his card punched. Now he is a “good” Leftist and can continue to write about the really important stuff and no-one will doubt his credentials. So how do you save a movement from itself?

Regards,

Inna

Plus - the reasons I/P is so ‘big’ in MSM terms are:-

ease of media access - Israel being a democracy et al and the PLA being very canny media operators,

the fact it can be given the one of oldest journalistic narratives in the book, David vs Goliath (as had been the case with Israel vs the Arab dictatorships,

the fact it can be made to ‘fit’ the derranged end of anti-capitalist discourse (US baddies Boh!, plucky and chic Hamas Goodies, Yah!)

plus a nascent self reinforcing pollution of leftist discourse by ME state sponcered anti-semitism.

Just one of the issues (along with the state fetish) that the left needs to address honestly and straight on, but in a discussive, reflexive manner

I think it might be a half full/half empty scenario here. The failure of the left dates back to first world war and beyond (especially with regards to a leftist program for peasents). As such, this anti-semitic surge and the anti-Imperialist narrative of the last 30 plus years is of a long heritage.

I actually see a reversing trend, with each day, the left shakes off some more of this cancerous set of niches. The SWPpies are on the run, Respect has failed drastically. Leftist friends of mine who applauded Galloway in front of the senate committee fervently questioned his parentage after Mo the bear and his defence of the CCP. Many friends who might be described as lazy ‘artly’ left have been horrified by the terror trials, recognising in them a face of totalising hatred. The ‘Neocon/NeoZio/Blooddrinker, the new ghost of the eternal Jew in idiot left diatribe, i might suggest, is the final splutter of a dying breed. They lack ideas, a following or a reason. Their destination is their upper colon via their anita harris. As for Hari, he is generally a light weight, each breeze carries him about with the force of divine winds

This is why I think we need now to revitalise the left by going back to first principles, by out-thinking the idiot left (easy) and the main stream right (hard).

“the reasons I/P is so ‘big’ in MSM”

It’s not just the Israel-Palestine conflict–it’s the way too many Leftists have of looking at the world. Is it a good idea to give clean water, food, and medicines to the people in Burma who are dying horribly in a man-made Disaster? Gosh, I really don’t know. Isn’t Burma the West’s fault anyway?

Is it a good idea to declare the Armenian genocide a genocide? Gosh, I really don’t know. We might offend the Turks. (Just for Christ’s sake don’t let them into the EU!)

Is it a good idea to at least call the Sudanese genocide a genocide? Oh, I don’t know. Genocide is so black-and-white, don’t you think? There are really many shades of gray we’re missing here…

And on and on and on.

Regards,

Inna

“I actually see a reversing trend, with each day, the left shakes off some more of this cancerous set of niches.”

I hope you’re right. Because the (lack of) a response to the horror in Burma was (for me) pretty much the final straw.

To be honest, I am not sure I want to think of myself as a Leftist anymore. I will remain a registered Democrat but I am not sure I want to continue to be associated (in my mind at least) with people who argue about state’s rights while people die so horribly.

Regards,

Inna

I think that is more a human trait rather than left specific. To euphemise the acts of your “enemy’s enemy” is a shameful aspect of fitting evidence to grand narrative. Something alas universal. Tho I hadn’t heard the leftist ‘rebranding’ of the Armenian Genocide before. I obviliously don’t get out enough :) too busy slaughtering the english language

In sum, i guess that I think opinions are individual but they are formed in a collective environment. Meta-narratives are great if they are reflexcive. My left is my own creation as is yours. All the more reason to shout louder

I can only speak of this side of the pond, but the Burmese Junta is pretty much loathed by the salvagable left. A old SWPper friend of mine, who still defends a purely materialist version of history…bless, told me recently he wished that US Apaches had blown to buggery China’s little helpers in Rangoon.

social–

Well, we have a carrier off of the coast of Burma. However, because the US has no particular desire to be “reprimanded” by the UN or the UN Security Council we have made it clear that while we are happy to intervene to drop shipments for example, we will not do so alone.

Regards,

Inna

I think it’s worse than that, Inna.

I think our government is worried that the Burmese government would retaliate against their own people. I wouldn’t put it past the motherfuckers.

This kind of shit burns my fucking ass.

Boogski–

Well, at least Burma accepted the body bags the UN World Health Organization sent….

Regards,

Inna

Just saw a tiny bit of good news. An Israeli first aid crew did manage to get in.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3541463,00.html

Regards,

Inna

I gave a donation to the Red Cross as I understand they are the only organisation the Burmese junta has officially allowed up country to inspect the damage. The regime and the military are “pinching” whatever supplies do get in. There are reports of such aid as has arrived being put into warehouses and spoilt and inferior alternatives being distributed in small quantities.

When a regime comes to despise the people it rules over, there seems to be little that outsiders can do to sway opinion. Look at Zimbabwe. Or Sri Lanka come to that - where it was virtually impossible to get aid to the worst hit after the tsunami due to the endemic corruption.

Even if aid is allowed into Burma, there are few opportunities to move it quickly. Most of the infrastructure in the worst hit areas, and at least one major port has been destroyed and there is little lifting gear or modern equipment available. Meanwhile there are torrential rains and another cyclone reported on its way.