Harry’s Place

I don’t buy into this “fringe/mainstream” thing at all: it’s based upon a smug complacency that implies the mainstream, contemporary, opinions on a range of views have legitimacy purely on the basis that they are popular (or go generally unchallenged). This is an arrogant whiggish acceptance of the tyranny of the times taken to an extreme.

It is also a form of moral relativism. It is a good thing that the type of views promoted by the likes of Press-TV are indeed “fringe” opinions: yet according to the basis of your argument should they become “mainstream” they would be worthy of greater respect, and in that case (rather than as a result of any moral consideration) should deserve to be treated more respectfully.

Clearly, this is amoral lunacy. Whether something is good or evil bears is not related to how much public acceptance it has at any given place or time.

What is objectionable about Press-TV (and pretty much any mouthpiece of the current Iranian regime) is not that it is “fringe” (or “fascist” - which it isn’t: this is a boringly typical of instance of the vaguely adolescent leftist vogue for using the word “fascist” to mean anything that it, quite rightly in this case, disapproves of) but that it promotes an authoritarian and morally objectionable regime (more morally objectionable than the British Government’s stance on abortion and related matters? That has to be at least open to debate) and is quite prepared to use the foulest kind of lies (as with its promotion of holocaust denial) to further its own highly dubious interests.

(I can’t say that I hold the commentators that you name as having appeared on the channel in any high regard at all, but that is by the by)

While I quite agree with you that it is unsurprising that”the mouthpiece of the Iranian Government” should promote Holocaust denial, and that this is indeed, amongst other things, what one might expect it to do I’m not sure that it follows from that automatically either that (a) “Press TV is a fascist organization” or (b) that it is “probably time for the British Government to take action”.

Maybe I spend too much time churning through output from press organs of less than democratic countries (Libya’s agency JANA used to stand out among petty dictatorships in providing really good copy, in its ridiculously overblown and florid manner), but I’m sure it is accurate to say that Iran’s press/propaganda organs are any more “fascist” in the sense of promoting aggressive nationalism and issuing less than veiled threats to certain of its neighbours than are, say, those of Russia, in fact. Even if they are perhaps (a little) more blatant in Iran’s case.

And on the second point, about the British Government “taking action”? What sort of action? AFAIK this report, while loathsome, would not be (and should not be) illegal.

“I’m NOT sure it is accurate to say that Iran’s press/propaganda organs are any more “fascist” in the sense of promoting aggressive nationalism and issuing less than veiled threats to certain of its neighbours than are, say, those of Russia, in fact. Even if they are perhaps (a little) more blatant in Iran’s case.”
of course.

(I will blame the lack of a preview function rather than my own inattention to detail)

Off topic, but FYI those Chinese arms have now reached Zimbabwe, after a refuelling at sea from a S African navy vessel and - allegedly - onward air freighting from Mozambique in a UK operated transport plane.

I do think that the participation of mainstream political figures in events organised by fringe organisation is one of the techniques that they use to create a false impression that they are themselves mainstream.

Hizb ut Tahrir were very keen, a few years back, on organising debates with former cabinet ministers and the like, through front organisations, on which Hizb speakers were pitted against those speakers. They then used these events to demonstrate that they were embedded in the political mainstream. The message was, in effect, “You say that we’re a racist totalitarian organisation: but if that were true, would former Tory cabinet ministers really have taken part in our events? Would former Labour cabinet members really have organised events for us at the House of Commons?”

Off the back of events like these, fringe voices manage to inflate their stock. When a clueless researcher is looking for an op ed piece or a spot on a radio or tv show, a quick internet search will turn up pages showing that these marginal organisations are treated as sensible by well known public figures. The researcher feels secure about putting them on the show.

Although the BNP has still to make it into the mainstream, the last few years have seen a large number of small organisations with tiny followings, present themselves as the authentic voice of British Muslims by using precisely this technique.

“And on the second point, about the British Government “taking action”? What sort of action? AFAIK this report, while loathsome, would not be (and should not be) illegal.”

There is a tendency on this blog to request that some authority or other should be shutting people up by force. Our present government needs no encouragement in that direction.

This lack of a preview button is disgraceful and the negligent criminals responsible should be dealt with by the law or lynch mobs.

This Government has shown that it is alert to ensure that racist hatemongers are not allowed to enter, or remain in, this country. I would hope that the discretion to exclude would be exercised to prevent any PressTV editor responsible for the circulation of this material from entering or remaining in this country.

You say that we’re a racist totalitarian organisation: but if that were true, would former Tory cabinet ministers really have taken part in our events? Would former Labour cabinet members really have organised events for us at the House of Commons?”

Well, in response to the first case I don’t think anyone credible denied that the Monday Club, which has enjoyed the support of some non-fringe Conservative parliamentary figures (ministers? I’m not sure) were an explicitly racist organization (that while not itself totalitarian provided succour to governments - ie in Rhodesia and SA - that may as well as have been totalitarian in their treatment of non-favoured groups).

And in response to the second case…the Labour party, like any organization with socialist roots (oh I know it owes more to methodism than Marx, but still) has long had members prepared to make questionable allegiances with bloodthirsty types (usually safely overseas) in support of “progressive values”

Off the back of events like these, fringe voices manage to inflate their stock. When a clueless researcher is looking for an op ed piece or a spot on a radio or tv show, a quick internet search will turn up pages showing that these marginal organisations are treated as sensible by well known public figures. The researcher feels secure about putting them on the show.

The solution to this is for researchers to be better informed.

One equally could make the point that “alumni” of the RCP and SWP (and, now I come to think of it, from Marxist groups in general, or even non-organized Marxists) are utterly disproportionally represented in the mass media in the UK (which is not to say I have a great deal of time for most of those who whinge about alleged “BBC bias”, basically because that Great Organ fails to endorse the whingers’ prejudices.)

This doesn’t mean that the RCP, SWP, other Marxists or ex- or post-Marxists are anything other than a fringe near- irrelevance, albeit a poisonous one, in British society in general.

I can see that something like Ceausescu being granted a state visit with the Queen serves to provide apparent legitimacy and “respectability” (whatever that might mean) and “inflation of stock” to a tyrannical regime that is wholly undeserving of it…but appearing in the odd newspaper article, or in the odd Radio 4 programme…what of it, in all?

There is a tendency on this blog to request that some authority or other should be shutting people up by force. Our present government needs no encouragement in that direction.

Which is precisely one reason (and by no means the only one) that - despite my noted support for Ken Livingstone - I will be hoping for a Conservative victory in the Crewe byelection this week, and, indeed, at the next general election.

The authoritarian, bullying, anti-life, self-righteous, sanctimonious, hypocritical bunch of cretins running this country at the moment really have to go.

There’s a chapter in Richard Dawkins’ A Devil’s Chaplain in which he explains why neither he nor Stephen Gould would debate with creationists. Part of it is reproduced here -
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/amun_ra/
The argument is essentially similar. For the creationist it matters little that he loses the debate. Merely being on the same stage with a scientist serves to legitimise his arguments as worthy of public debate.

I know you’re a big fan of the “every sperm is sacred” theology: but believe me, this will never be a vote winner in this country.

“The West punishes people for their scientific research on Holocaust but the same western countries allow insults to prophets and religious beliefs…”

He does have a point, the west (and you guys in particular are quite hypocritical)

WHAT scientific research on Holocaust?

This is why I’ve always refused to appear on Press TV. I take the view that if want to invite me on then it’s becuase they think that it’s in the channel’s best interest. I do not wish Press TV well, ergo I do not wish to go on it.
The dim and desperate researchers they have working for them don’t seem to be able to realise this.
(Maybe that explains why they’re working for Press TV and not a more respectable outfit)

Can someone with Gilligan’s email address send him a link to the Auschwitz stuff and ask whether the Journalist of the Year should really associate with these nutcases?

“WHAT scientific research on Holocaust?” - Roger

It says it all. Excellent, Roger.

Flanker only has to think about the Hamas Culture Ministrer waving the Protocols on TV with one hand (he grabs a joint with the other hand). Trying to convince his illiterate audience that this book is utterly true.

“I never miss a chance to have sex or appear on television.” — Gore Vidal (attrib, several variants out there)

I don’t think Kollerstrom’s holocaust denial essay is itself hate-speech or incitement though it’ll doubtless be used for support by the usual death to the Jews crowd. Can’t see what you’d expect the government to do about it.

“Can’t see what you’d expect the government to do about it.”

Unless he wants holocaust denial legislation passed here - which would make this country look like a nation of dickheads.

What got me joining in with blogs was when Gordon Brown said he wanted to root the hate from people’s hearts, or the expression of hate, or some such crap.

DT started out alright though, press TV has imo shot itself in the foot by running this crank essay wrt being seen as a proper channel. Why call on the state to prevent press Tv from destroying its own reputation by publishing lunatics?

I don’t suppose they expect Western ‘Christian’ people to take them seriously, surely it is more about shoring up and reaching other Muslims, innoculating them against Western rationality and spirit of enquiry etc etc?

David T, I think your position of refusing to appear on Press TV until their programs are broadcast in Iran (with accurate subtitles in Farsi) is precisely the right one to take. I hope others adopt the same position.

If you were being charitable to this Mullah front organisation, you would say they were making a polemical point about free speech: “We ban attacks on the Prophet; you ban the denial of the Holocaust. We both care deeply about these issues.”

Of course, ironically, they are making the polemical point for a reason - because they want to get on with perpetrating their own 21st century update on the holocaust.

But that doesn’t mean the polemical point has no force. It is WRONG and STUPID to outlaw holocaust denial. We know how these things go. In ten years time it will be illegal to deny the bogus “Naqba” in the UK and some more nine inch nails will have been driven into the coffin of our free speech.

Hang on Gene, isn’t David saying he won’t appear on press TV now regardless of whether or not it’s visible in Iran cos he considers press TV a fascist platform?

Well, it is difficult, isn’t it?

I certainly gave it the benefit of the doubt for a while. Although it is funded by the Iranian Government, they have always stressed that they have editorial independence.

The trouble is, I now know what their editorial line is. It is to promote Holocaust denial by a lunatic neo-Nazi. So I can’t really go on it now.

I understand that PressTV may taking some emergency action of this one, so we’ll see.

If truth be told, I’m crap on TV. I think they will continue to survive without me.

I asked a question on Press TV Forum once. Had no idea it was Iranian funded. Trust me when I tell you the advertisements for audience places dont say anything about who Press TV are. I naively believed they were just one of the new politics/media.com companies that seem to start up every week. I wonder how many people would turn up to the debates if they knew who Press TV was. Suppose I owe the Iranian government a tenner. Or should I keep the dosh? Would HP consider me a sanction buster?

Oh yes! They hire an audience!

Pierrot Grenouille.

In your first sentence to inform me that: “‘Islam’ does not mean anything”. Wow! -What a debate closing-down statement.

Then you imply that the Qu’ran may be duplicitous. The Qu’ran is certainly that, as indicated here:

” Kafir dreams ” by Bill Warner

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/front-page-magazine-interviews-bill-warner/

You mention war, and talk of tanks. What of JIHAD with or without tanks? You mention that Israel ‘prevails’. I note that Israel is surrounded by Jihadist forces backed by Arab states, and that Israel survives, despite Jihad-supporting parts of the West, (and the political Left).

And then you write me off by using the word of the Jihad-supporters to close down debate again; a word they coined about a decade ago, and which is apparently now part of some of the political Left’s unthinking mantras, lazily used, that old stand-by: ‘islamophobia’. On this word, suggest see:

“Islamophobia, An Imaginary Ailment” (by Hugh Fitzgerald)

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/5043

Jack R, if you truly think that “Islam” (which means **nothing** concrete, I repeat) is a world menace… er, what can I say.

That or my english sucks and therefore you haven’t understood anything (not your fault then). Agreed, indeed it sucks…

Unless you think what follows is a “menace”: a few months ago some Iranian PT’s “harassed” à la Groucho Marx (or Mr Bean for that matter) some US Navy Task Force … Alright, that’s indeed a huge, serious menace then… What’s next? The Al-Qaeda 3rd RAFTS Flotilla tries to sink one american CV? You buy any sort of stories, mate. I don’t. No offense intended though…

Cheers

P.S.:
anyway, I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Pierrot Grenouille

‘Islam’ means ’submission’.

“Submission”, eh? So I take it that Max Mosley is muslim? And there have to be two kind of believers or schools: givers and takers…

In your context (Islam = a world menace), the word does NOT mean anything coherent, concrete…

You are one more victim of the Merchants of Fear… and you are almost one century late… You didn’t learn the WW1 lesson (the American Civil war already proved the importance of the industrial base, by the way)… Not my fault.

So I take it that Max Mosley is muslim

hahahahaha

Jolly rum business that with Max Mosley. I mean one of the prostitutes was married to an MI5 agent. Now, I’m not suggesting this is entrapment, but it does make me wonder about the sort of people that MI5 recruits, or am I being old-fashioned?

Nah, there’s no threat from ‘the religion of nothing’:

“Britain is the focal point for Islamic terrorism across Europe”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/britain-is-focal-point-for-terrorism-warns-europes-police-force-830347.html

Jack R, I haven’t said there are no terrorists who claim to fight in the name of “Islam”.

You and I could become terrorists and start a sordid, grotesque killing spree (à la Doom 2) in the name of Santa Claus as well. Why not? That would make us pretty dangerous (and ridiculous too). I concur.

What would be our first demand? “The American Empire –no, wait, let’s be more ambitous: the whole world– must scuttle itself within the next 24 hours or… [what would be our mighty menace? Give me ideas, please]”

Sorry, but all you are doing is posting links which point to Merchants of Fear. I don’t drink that vitriol, sorry. You are an endless linking machine though. And perhaps all I want is your own point of view… Why do you let others talk for you?

Venichka - you seem to think a Tory government would be more liberal than the present one. I doubt that. Thatcher’s passed the 14 day Prevention of Terrorism Act and also that stupid and embarrassing law where the words of the IRA were spoken by actors (”the oxygen of publicity”). I can’t see a Tory government coming in repealing the anti civil rights legislation that this government has passed. They may talk of decentralisation but it won’t happen.

I always enjoy Venichka’s young fogeyisms, and share some of his concerns about contemporary usages of the f word, but, I’m sorry, in this case “fascist” is an entirely appropriate term for Holocaust deniers, of all swamp things.

Anyway, whatever all of our various semantic persuasions and distractions may be, this story is so sickening that I don’t understand how anyone would want to be associated in any way with Press TV, even as a guest.

Good on you Mr T.

*

Pierrot, never be so sure:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html

Now, I’m not suggesting this is entrapment, but it does make me wonder about the sort of people that MI5 recruits, or am I being old-fashioned?

Shayler.

Anyhow, I do think that Mosely was set up. I don’t mean that he didn’t willingly engage in some form of fairly dismal faffing with some fairly down at heel prostitutes: evidently, he did. However, clearly somebody really had it in for him. Can’t imagine who that might be…

Habibi, don’t forget the militaries are just like little kids who constantly want new and expensive toys. The problem is they have to convince the bloody civilians… the Iranians seem to collaborate though. Some guys are rubbing their hands.

And I’m certain that the next Al-Qaeda 3rd Raft Flotilla attack on 2017 will trigger a similar reaction: “gimme more tons of cash or the mighty terrorist ‘navy’ might annihilate the poor and defenseless US Navy… You are warned”.

This story is a yet another example of Press TV Jew hatred at work:

The Zionist regime has plans to damage ties among Islamic countries in the region. Given their capabilities in the region and in the world of Islam, the Islamic Republic of Iran and Saudi Arabia are among the regime’s targets in this plot,” Iran’s Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mohammad-Ali Hosseini told reporters Monday.

Followed a few paragraphs later by this:

Hosseini said that Iran had no reliable information on the identity of the agents behind the terrorist attack on the staff of the Iranian Embassy in Baghdad, adding the embassy is in contact with Iraqi officials and is investigating the case.The terrorist act on Thursday against a convoy of Iranian Embassy staff, consisting of two diplomats and two guards, was carried out by those who have been targeting friendly ties between Tehran and Baghdad, he noted.

“No reliable information”, yet Tehran knows…

Translation: come on Saudi, don’t we all hate the Jews?

Iranian diplomacy does know its audience.

Pierre Grenouille.

You seem to inhabit a parallel universe where Islam is not a real and present threat. ‘Terrorists’ may invoke Islam when they commit, advocate and support Jihad murders against the West, but this is apparently to misrepresent ‘Islam’. So when Islamic Jihadists attack the West in the name of Islam, I should see beyond the reality of suicide bombers and recognise that the US and the West are to blame, and that Islam is benign! Apparently some ‘Merchants of Fear’, (trotted out by Cockburn), not Islamic Jihadist ones (?),
are distorting reality. The reality is, apparently, in that parallel universe, that Iran, for example, is not a threat, despite Ahmadinejad’s statements about Israel, and despite his plans to build nuclear weapons, that we see Islamic Jihad is not the real threat to the West, and that we should, apparently, be appeasing Islam’s jihadists and jihadist supporters. In that parallel universe, it is the West, which is seen as the real enemy:

“What Iran owes the ‘Palestinians’ (Hugh Fitzgerald)

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020312.php

“When the propaganda arm of a foreign government broadcasts neo-Nazi lies, it is probably time for the British government to take action”

What kind of action?

Ian Cresswell: “What kind of action?”

Well, there is always the SAS!
(just dreaming)

Press TV’s website has published another article attacking the holocaust deniers. So give them credit where credit’s due. They are giving both sides a platform. What d’ya reckon?