Harry’s Place

*guffaw*

If Cameron persists with his strategy of reflecting the zeitgeist then he will announce policies that soundly resonate with an electorate that have come to despise and fear Labour’s top down, big state, high tax, oppressive approach to governing Britain. So actually things could get even worse for Brown and not better. It does seem as if an awful lot of the left are in complete denial about the shift in voter sentiment and about the fact that a lot of people have turned completely against the Labour approach, Labour’s priorities and against finding themselves materially worse off with less in their pockets than they used to have.

Labour will be electable again about 10 years after the election and the wheel will have turned once more.

There’s little political difference between the parties so it will come down to a question of perceived competence. After 10 years the incumbent party is unlikely to be perceived as competent and the bubble of hope that existed when the government was first elected is well and truly burst.

Brownie, it’s time to face the facts about our current political system. The Conservatives aren’t the evil villains and nor are Labour the well-intentioned saints. Both comprise politicians who play the same game within the same constraints in the same arena. It ain’t football and we should stop supporting political parties as if they were football teams.

Brownie, it’s time to face the facts about our current political system. The Conservatives aren’t the evil villains and nor are Labour the well-intentioned saints. Both comprise politicians who play the same game within the same constraints in the same arena. It ain’t football and we should stop supporting political parties as if they were football teams.

Look, I understand what’s being said here, but I do think this business of both parties being “much of a muchness” is overstated. There are huge numbers of people in this coutnry for whom it is a matter of some significance if the Tories get in ahead of Labour. They may not all have computers and broadband connections, but they do exist.

As I said here before: From my side of the Pond I see that Labour got whupped. I have no idea what they whupped them.

Actually is no longer matters who we vote for, the real power is sitting in the hands of unelected bureaucrats in Belgium, so in truth they are noth constrained by that. Take European directive 75/442/EEC on waste disposal, Brown stated that it would be scrapped, but he can’t as it is a EU directive. So its still being tested in the UK, even though we hate it.

In France the French government are asking the EU to be allowed to help French fisherman with their diesel problems, not forgetting that when parlimentarians in France objected to the phrasing of anti-discrimination directive which uses the word ‘has’ to create a huge ambiguity, they were told that they could not change the wording.

So in truth there not much difference in the two parties within the same constraints in which they operate, a complete loss of power and authority means that they window dressing figure heads who come out with banalities before checking back what they are allowed to do.

Personally I am looking forward to the directive on health across the EU, that will be interesting as every other EU state has a state and insurance funded system.

The age of passivity is over for the Tories. These are dangerous times indeed, but not for Labour.

Poor Brownie; still deluding himself over the scale of the disaster engulfing New Labour. This government is absolutely despised by the majority of the electorate on both the Left and the Right. And as George Monbiot comments in today’s Guardian (boo hiss):

Above all, the Labour government has destroyed hope. It has put into practice Thatcher’s dictum that “there is no alternative” to a market fundamentalism that subordinates human welfare to the demands of business. Labour has created a political monoculture that kills voters’ enthusiasm, and has delayed electoral reforms that would have given smaller parties an opportunity to be heard. All we are left with is fear: the fear that this awful government might be replaced by something slightly worse. Fear has destroyed the Labour party, but people keep supporting it in trepidation of letting the other side win.

Not any more.

In an environment where inflation is starting to rise with a potential impact on interest rates, oil at an all time high and predicted to go higher, house prices going south, economic prospects gloomier than any time for the last 10 years lower taxes might start to resonate.

If Cameron cretes the perception that he can cut taxes without harming public services he may do very well with this.

Hang in the there, Gordon. Things are looking up.

Everything you wrote is true up until this last line.

Brown has to go. Should never have been there. We were all sucked in to believing he was a leader in waiting when, in fact, he’s been shown, by his own actions (or inactions) to be politically inept, naive, weak and utterly without vision or principle.

The pseudo-left got their wish and after 13 years of sniping and backstabbing drove Blair out and Brown in.

Now they will get what they always truly wanted - three terms of a Tory Government. See Monbiot and Jared for examples…

Now they will get what they always truly wanted - three terms of a Tory Government. See Monbiot and Jared for examples…

No Phomesy. What we always truly wanted was a left-wing government. Only on this site does that make us “psuedo-left”. I am pleased that you credit my small part in Blair’s demise though. Buffoon.

If Cameron cretes the perception that he can cut taxes without harming public services he may do very well with this.

And if I can juggle knives blindfold without hacking off a finger, I’ll get a job in a circus.

Phomsey,

I never wanted Brown and although I think there is something of an unjustified feeding frenzy underway (much as there was for Major, as it happens), I never had him down as leadership material, let alone Prime Minister quality

My own guess is a hung parliament. The Tories need to keep hold of two thirds of the biggest poll lead they’ve had in 20 years just to get a simple majority (roughly).

What we always truly wanted was a left-wing government.

Can I get a look at your manifesto?

And if you can’t have a truly left wing Government you prefer a Tory government because it provides an easy symbol for division and conflict for you to rail uselessly at.

And seeing as a truly left wing Government is also a truly unelectable Government - which you know - how else to interpret your sniping and back-seat back-stabbing other than objectively pro-Tory?

So, well done - you helped get rid of Blair. After 4 election wins and 13 years in power. It’s taken Brown less than a year to ruin Labour as a political party. Again - well done. You must feel so proud.

I think Mr Angry sums it up pretty well..

I never wanted Brown and although I think there is something of an unjustified feeding frenzy underway (much as there was for Major, as it happens), I never had him down as leadership material, let alone Prime Minister quality

Fair enough. I confess I simply assumed he must be competent. I never imagined the leaks about him being “deranged” were, in fact, simple truth. I assumed this because he had so much support for so many years as they undermined Blair’s reform agenda.

I guess what I’m worried about is the sense that we’re stuck with Brown and therefore hold out hope that the Tories might screw up.

Brown has to go now. And not just him - all his powerbrokers who oversaw this disaster too. If this doesn’t happen right now the Labour party will be looking at utter ruin.

Brown has to go now. And not just him - all his powerbrokers who oversaw this disaster too. If this doesn’t happen right now the Labour party will be looking at utter ruin.

I’d agree with this except for one small consideration. It isn’t completely obvious to me who the brilliant successor who could turn everything around is, exactly. Unfortunately the ratings on the ‘charismatrometer’ are perilously low for pretty much the whole of the cabinet.

Labour’s priorities and against finding themselves materially worse off with less in their pockets than they used to have.

But this simply isn’t true. People might feel that way - but the reality is that more people have a higher standard of living, better access to opportunity/education, and/or recourse to a welfare safety net than ever before.

The reality is that the Tories have had to adopt most of New Labour’s basic platform - not to mention cloning their leader on Tony Blair.

This is a tremendous achievement for New Labour. THey’ve reshaped the political landscape completely.

Now they are paying the price for indulging the backstabbing of the Brownites and incessant sniping of the pseudo-left which allowed the Tories to present themselves as the closest thing to Tony Blair circa 1997.

It isn’t completely obvious to me who the brilliant successor who could turn everything around is, exactly. Unfortunately the ratings on the ‘charismatrometer’ are perilously low for pretty much the whole of the cabinet.

COmpletely agree. I think maybe Milliband but… “shrugs”

It can’t be one of the old guard - Straw/Clarke/Reid - because they represent the past. It has to be someone untainted by the Blair/Brown shitfight.

Anyway, whoever it is won’t turn things around completely. It’s like football - the party needs to be rebuilt, starting right now.

Unless Blair can be convinced to come back.

ANother thought - Neil or Glynis Kinnock? They represent the origin of New Labour without any of the baggage. Continuity as well as renewal? I wasn’t around when Neil Kinnock was leader but I’m told he was charismatic - I’ve heard Alistair Campbell talk about him reverentially…

Just a thought.

I do think this business of both parties being “much of a muchness” is overstated.

New Labour was explicitly a project of aping the Tories enough to get elected. The Tories, bless them, are now mirroring the mirror. It’s like going up an escalator in a department store.

I do have to agree that it’s pretty pathetic of the Tories to try to buy votes by promising tax cuts without thinking through the consequences. Imagine if their changes leave millions worse off and they have to rush through a package of debt that still leaves over a million of the low paid worse off…

Brownie,

I think you are reading too much into Cameron’s statement. He said that lower taxes were a long term commitment, which of course they would be for any Conservative government. He has to come out with a statement like this every so often to appease his party but it doesn’t mean they are going to cut taxes in the short term. When asked about this they always come out with the same line, ie that they will “share the proceeds of growth” which will in practice mean extremely modest tax cuts if any. Therefore I would predict they will make a token gesture and blame the fact that they cannot do more on the state of the public finances (not totally unfairly). There seems to be a perception among the public that the tax burden is now too high and that a lot of money is wasted so I think it is going to be hard for Labour to attack the Tories on this issue, especially as they can bring up Brown’s recent unfunded £2.7bn tax cut.
For this reason I don’t think they will make low taxation the big issue at the next election, but rather reducing the “overmighty state”, so expect to see an emphasis on services currently provided by the state being farmed out to the private and voluntary sectors (or abolished altogether). We will certainly see the role of the private sector in education and especially health massively increased and a large step towards the NHS being a commissioner of healthcare rather than a provider. Personally I think this would be disastrous but it is going to be hard for Labour to argue against as it is a logical progression of Blair’s “reform” program, and the Tories will no doubt point this out.

By the way, Labour are going to lose Crewe and Nantwich, and by the look of this website, they are getting very stupid and very desperate:

http://www.creweandnantwichlabour.org.uk/get_the_yobs

More Labour absurdity:

“Tamsin Dunwoody wants the police to harass yobs, and get in their faces”. (Kind of Labour/Maoist that one).

“I will fight to get well paid, skilled jobs for local people and I will listen and respond to people’s concerns about immigration.”

Reality check: Crewe and Nantwich is 98% white British, and 96.8 born in the UK, very low levels of immigration.

“Hang in the there, Gordon. Things are looking up.”

Because obviously the prospect of being taxed less under the Tories will make people vote Labour. Right.

As a Labour Activist I think that, on balance, we are toast come 2010.

These things are cyclical and although I don’t want to see a Conservative Govt I strongly suspect that there is precious little We can do about it at the moment.

Possibly things may evolve by 2010 to present a different scenario but I doubt it.

Brown should stay as PM and Party Leader till we see what happens at the GE.

After that then I disagree about the lack of charisma and talent.

David Milliband and Alan Johnson would both make excellant PMs and Party Leaders.

The significant party political issue that Labour should concentrate
on is the flood of cash going into Shadow Cabinet members private offices. George ‘leave no Lobbyist Behind’ Osbourne in partic should be targeted.

p.s. We are going to be whipped in Crewe as well. I miss Gwyneth!

Andrew,

Maybe I am reading too much into it. The point is that right now he can make vague references to core Conservative principles if that is all this was, but as an election approaches he’ll have to say what they plan to actually do. Cameron and the modern Tory party are untested in this regard. It’s not difficult to gain the empathy of of the electorate when all you have to do is join the chorus of disapproval. Come an election and you have to start looking like a party capable of government, not just criticism. It’s a different ball-game entirely.

I did say in my post that Cameron may go on to become an extremely successful politician. But his reference to tax cuts was picked up by the MSM as the first signs that he is trying to emphasize the clear policy divisions with Labour on the major issues. These are the early exchanges if I’m not mistaken, and I’m heartened to hear that he chose tax cutting as his opening gambit.

It’s not difficult to find people who want to complain about the tax they pay, but I think the big debate about public services versus tax rates was won by New Labour in the late 90s and early 00s. I don’t believe there is nearly as much mileage in that old Tory chestnut as there used to be and I’m heartened by the comments of “dave” and others above who still think this is a strong hand. It might be in the Tory heartlands, but not with swing voters who will decide the next election.

Long may their delusion continue.

Anyone who doesn’t believe that government spending in this country needs to trimmed is either ignorant or morally perverted. Please read this report and try to seriously say that the British people, rich and poor, are being robbed.

http://tpa.typepad.com/bettergovernment/files/080515_structure_of_government_1_unseen_government_immediate_release.pdf

Forget about liberty, small government, rugged individualism or any of that. What we are dealing with here is sheer unalloyed crime, a protection racket of huge proportions. Have you seen the latest adverts threatening those who don’t pay the full 42% of their income the state demands for its legions of employees? How long before they really go for it and we turn on the TV to be greeted with “Pay up, or we’ll f**k you up, peasant”?

Yes, the UK is the only liberal demcoracy in the world that threatens the full force of the law if you don’t pay your taxes.

The wingnuts are busy today, it seems.

Presumably when Cameron talks about “tax cuts” he means continuing the tradition of the last nearly three decades: shifting the burden of taxation towards middle and lower income groups. This happened from Thatcher, through to Blair and Brown. At the same time the overall burden of taxation has remained steady or increased slightly recently, and it doesn’t take a genius to work out who is taking the hits.

Meanwhile inequality has increased slightly under Labour, child poverty remains a disgrace, and Britain, in a new widely backed index of peace by the Institute for Economics and Peace, is ranked 49th.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/20/1

Brownie, hold on, it may have been won by Blair in 90’s and early 00’s, but it has been lost now, there is a high rate of tax and a huge spending during the economic boom period and there is nothing to show for it, except for a huge debt and public services that are still crap and very expensive with additional taxes coming left right and centre. The argument on that score has been well and truely lost now and Cameron realises that.

“How long before they really go for it and we turn on the TV to be greeted with “Pay up, or we’ll f**k you up, peasant”?”

Errr….Never? Just a thought.

That TPA report, whilst I have some sympathy with the section on QUANGOES lists local authorities, NHS trusts, the police and fire services etc etc as unnecessary Govt spending..

So G, QUANGOES aside, you appear to be willing to forego doctors, cops, binmen and nurses……..I think you want to go back to the Middle Ages……….

Actually some public services have improved under Labour, it’s not entirely fair to say they are “crap”.

However, what’s wasteful and often unnecessary is the PFI and privatisation that comes with it. In the NHS, for example, this is unnecessary. The NHS needs reform, localisation and democratisation; along the lines of Denmark. But that’s not the Labour way - instead they insist on handing out huge corporate welfare cheques.

Brownie: There was a time when there were no adverts threatening you to pay your taxes when you turned on your TV. It was called the 1990s. Hardly a utopia, but then I’m hardly a utopian.

Neil W: The report is as comprehensive a list as possible of all government spending, including essential and non-essential. You will notice that the amount of money estimated as spent by Quangos is nearly equal to the income tax in its entirety.
And anyway, how the absence of NHS trusts would plunge us into the middle ages rather than say the condition of most western european states who exist without nationalized healthcare is quite beyond me.

Tax is too high, much of it is being wasted; this is as close to a fact as these sort of statements can possibly be. Trying to defend the colossal wastage of taxpayer money is, frankly, indefensible; you should be ashamed of yourself.

Brownie, hold on, it may have been won by Blair in 90’s and early 00’s, but it has been lost now, there is a high rate of tax and a huge spending during the economic boom period and there is nothing to show for it, except for a huge debt and public services that are still crap and very expensive with additional taxes coming left right and centre. The argument on that score has been well and truely lost now and Cameron realises that.

The public services are measurably improved in nearly every sector. It will not be difficult to fight that sort of unscientific bluster at the election.

Whether people believe they are getting value for money is a different discussion and this is where Labour will need to do some hard graft, but it’s doubtful Mr and Mrs Swing-voter will be convinced that the answer is to cut public spending to pay for tax cuts.

Good luck with that one.

G,

Which adverts are you referring to? The only ones I’m aware of are the “tax doesn’t have to be taxing” self-assessment adverts that remind you it is a statutory requirement to submit your return and that interest will start to accrue on unpaid tax.

There’s a reason they didn’t run these adverts in the early/mid 90s. Can you guess what it was?

Brownie is delusional, the expansion in spending has been huge, the improvements negligble. Meanwhile 10 years of New Labour “ban and spend” rule have left Britain a less civilized and pleasant place to live with far worse finances than 1997.

Unfortunately during the lean years ahead we may well not be able to afford tax cuts, as we cope with the debt Gordon “financial genius who doesn’t know the price of gold” Brown will have stuck us with.

Also, Nick Clegg has joined the call for taxcuts. Give it up Brownie, at least for the moment your philosophy* of government is out.

*If you can call high spending, poor accounting and bansturbation a philosophy.

The NHS needs reform, localisation and democratisation; along the lines of Denmark.

Where the lowest rate of income taxation is in the mid-50%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHS951iYvV4

I don’t get it anyway, if you don’t pay your car tax why not just confiscate the money. Why crush the car? For kicks?

http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/2008/04/we-know-where-you-live.html
(don’t worry about the link, just watch the video)
“Liberty if it means anything is having your door kicked in on behalf of the BBC”.

Brownie is delusional, the expansion in spending has been huge, the improvements negligble.

Which means you are either 11 and have no recollection of what it was like walking into a hospital pre-1997, or you and your family and friends were supremely fit and healthy back then and required no medical treatment whatsoever, excluding any possiblity you can make a meaningful comparison.

Brownie this gets to the core issue, Labour promised a massive improvement in public services and spent to acheive that, however it was not managed properly and much of it was wasted, any improvements that the normal Joe sees is marginal at best, we can talk about unscientific league tables which are manipulated at both ends until the cows come home and they will. The average joe is paying through the nose for it and sees little in return.

So you are going to campaign on marginal improvements in some services at huge cost in tax and indirect tax, by quoting league table statistics that are not trusted, well the Tories are going to be laughing at the way to power, Labour is in deep serious trouble in so many areas.

This site is quite interesting

If its to be believed things are most definately not looking up for Brown

http://politicalbetting.com/

Its worth taking the time to read the comments.

“Above all, the Labour government has destroyed hope.”

I think it is more likely to have been Moonbot and the other lame, self-regarding hacks who have destroyed hope—if in fact it has been destroyed (I’m still hopeful, for instance). In fact, New Labour have been a reasonably good social democratic administration, responding creatively—though not always successfully—to the rapidly changing demands of the contemporary world, and attempting to pursue an ethical foreign policy—such as with helping to overthrow of the Baath.

I’m not saying that other social democratic responses aren’t possible, but a return to the mythical safety of the 1970s, ala Compass or some such wet-weekend outfit, isn’t one of them (I think one of the worst features of New Labour has been the gigantic waste of money on consultants in local government who don’t do anything, and who, by and large, don’t know how to do anything).

But reactionary hacks like Moonboot have helped to erect a great phantasm, the totem of the Great Betrayal, at which they invite some of the more gullible members of the public to worship (see nano-Moonbots crawling all over the comments at CiF, for instance)—like the nuked, telepathic human survivors in Planet of the Apes trying to scare the monkeys back with a scary, beloved image. They have manufactured dissent, which is why it feels so false, hollow, routine, ritualistic (”illegalwarwhitewash
falseprospectuswarcriminalneoconservative/-liberal/-colonialnobloodforoilinmyname”). This process of falsification could perhaps be called “Moonbiosis”.

I mean, what is greenism except a loathing for the urban poor sublimated as moralistic authoritarianism—and based on discredited essentialist German idealism at that?

Even New Labour don’t make the reality-defying claims Brownie is making. The project failed, you have no new ideas, you’re party can’t even be bothered to defend its old ideas, it’s over.
Why bother?

Yes I went to hospital in 1996 with chest pains and I was looked after very well, in 2008 my sister in law was in the same situation and the nightmare she had was just incredible. I compare the care I had to hers and there is no comparison, I was glad I had my problems then.

The public services are measurably improved in nearly every sector.

*chortle*.

There’s been quite a sudden burst of immigration into Crewe from Poland over the part couple of years, the council’s put up bi lingual versions of some of the more verbose road signage. Not that the candidates can do any more than ‘promise to listen’

Where the lowest rate of income taxation is in the mid-50%.

Taxes are a bit higher in Denmark, but they do things properly. They have made a settled social democratic decision. More social, and incidentally, more democratic. Labour is caught between two stools. They want to ape the Tories on tax and other matters, and yet try to build better public services, but sometimes wastefully, and through schemes like PFI. In the long term, this confused strategy of triangulation may be quite damaging.

Brownie said

“Which means you are either 11 and have no recollection of what it was like walking into a hospital pre-1997, or you and your family and friends were supremely fit and healthy back then and required no medical treatment whatsoever, excluding any possiblity you can make a meaningful comparison.”

Hmm I beg to differ.

I posted recently about my stay in hospital earlier this year, they cant even keep the bloody wards clean ffs!!!!!!

I had a National Health dentist back then too……

There’s been quite a sudden burst of immigration into Crewe from Poland over the part couple of years

Well, isn’t that shocking. Perhaps the burghers of Crewe can actually learn something from the more worldly Poles. Now there’s a thought.

Hmm I beg to differ.

You can beg all you like and cite as many anecdotal examples as you like, it won’t make any claim that the health service today is worse than it was in the mid-90s any less loopy.

Benji,

You won’t find any bigger fan of the way they do things in Denmark, but good luck championing marginal rates of tax that push 60% for the average punter.

Phomesy - And seeing as a truly left wing Government is also a truly unelectable Government - which you know - how else to interpret your sniping and back-seat back-stabbing other than objectively pro-Tory? So, well done - you helped get rid of Blair. After 4 election wins and 13 years in power. It’s taken Brown less than a year to ruin Labour as a political party. Again - well done. You must feel so proud.

Firstly, I’d have to be in the car to indulge in “back-seat back-stabbing” - I’m not; I despise the Labour party almost as much as I despise the Tories. Up until 2005 I always voted Labour because they represented the best of a bad bunch. They no longer do so, nor can they be considered left-wing in any meaningful sense any more. I wasn’t someone who preferred Brown over Blair; the New Labour project is as much his as Blair’s and the Labour party should have ditched him when they ditched Blair (or at least allowed their members to even consider an alternative). They are now reaping what they sowed with their anti-democratic coronation.

Secondly; Blair had THREE election victories and TEN years in power. Historical accuracy, who cares?

ANother thought - Neil or Glynis Kinnock? They represent the origin of New Labour without any of the baggage. Continuity as well as renewal? I wasn’t around when Neil Kinnock was leader but I’m told he was charismatic - I’ve heard Alistair Campbell talk about him reverentially… Just a thought.

Kinnock resigned SIXTEEN years ago. In what way would his return represent ‘Continuity’. You don’t find the actual meaning of words very important do you? And his wife is called GLENYS. And if you weren’t so historically illiterate and/or politically ignorant you’d recognise that the Kinnocks have plenty of baggage of their own.

Brownie - Can I get a look at your manifesto?

Sorry mate, you seem to have it arse about face; I’m part of the electorate not the political class. I’m a little busy raising children and paying taxes to write a decent, left-wing manifesto. However, I know one when I see one, and if I do I’ll let you know.

Oops I forgot…

I mean, what is greenism except a loathing for the urban poor sublimated as moralistic authoritarianism—and based on discredited essentialist German idealism at that?

Dave is a fucking idiot.

Brownie - I dont believe I said worse, BUT I have several examples from myself and immediate family that show that things have not improved to the degree you imagine.

You can believe (its all great) all you want, its every one else thats got it wrong seems to be your mantra.

Your in good company with Brown then……….

“Dave is a fucking idiot.”

Well, if that’s your attitude, Jared, it might be better if you were less involved with bringing up children and more involved in politics, where you can do less harm. (But that is one of the strands that feeds into today’s regressive greenism.)

“nor can they be considered left-wing in any meaningful sense any more”

But redistibution is one of the characteristic policies of the left, historically, as is opposition to tyranny—in a way that support for slavery and the international capitalist legal order, alá Sir Moonbot, is not.

Brownie, how about that some parts of the NHS have indeed improved, that in some areas it has got worse, that the cost of medicine is rising above normal inflation, that newer treatments are costing more and more, this was true during the previous Tory government and true during the Labour years. I remember the Tories improving the NHS in areas, and I just acknowledged Labour doing the same.

The critical aspect of this is management, Labour has failed to manage.

Take party funding, the over the top sleeze allegations used to destroy Majors government have been used to undermine this Labour one. Over time people get complacent and power corrupts, some, did that mean that Majors government was corrupt, nope, does it mean that Browns government is corrupt, nope. Looking around Europe I see the same games played around political funding, its a merry dance around scoring points, stupid and pathetic.

The spectre of waste, mis-management, cronyism, arrogance, stupidity, failure to honor promises like the referendum, failure to control immigration, weakness in front of Islamic extremists, and the simple issue of not being fully in control of government are all coming home at this point. Same as it did with Major and the Tories in different areas, but I actually think that the Major government was competent, look at the windfall that Blair and Brown walked into when they won.

The truth of it all is that Labour are going to be voted out because above all they promised the earth and acheived very little, and do you know what the Tories have to do for the next election, all they have they have to promise to do is sort out the mess that the Labour party has created.

Instead of walking into a windfall like Blair, Cameron is going to walk into a bloody mess, I hope he is up to it.

Brownie,

I agree that it was a huge achievement of Blair and Brown to get the British public to accept higher taxes to fund higher spending on public services. However, I can sense the argument is starting to tip back the other way. I’m not sure that how widely held David’s view is among the wider public but I do think there is a perception that there is a lot of waste and that the improvements in services do not match the amount of extra money put in. In the case of the NHS in particular there is certainly a lot of truth in this, although I do agree that it has got better overall and some of the arguments used by the right to attack the NHS are spurious.

“All great”? Not at all. And I’ve already conceded that there is a difference between value for money and whether the service has improved in absolute terms. Most reasonable people don’t dispute there have been improvements.

My only point really is that even if the electorate believe much of the moeny invested has been wasted - or delivered only minor improvements - they still might not necessarily want to risk those improvements by handing power to a party whose first political instinct is to cut taxes.

Sorry mate, you seem to have it arse about face; I’m part of the electorate not the political class. I’m a little busy raising children and paying taxes to write a decent, left-wing manifesto. However, I know one when I see one, and if I do I’ll let you know.[Jared]

Sorry mate, when you expressed your desire that “What we always truly wanted was a left-wing government” I thought you might be able to string one or two sentences together to expand upon your definition of a truly “left-wing” government. You know, so we have something to discuss?

As you can’t/won’t do this, I can only conclude that you don’t really know what you’re talking about and/or you are painfully aware of how ridiculous you would look were you to outline a policy framework that rendered Labour unelectable for a generation.

Although, self-indulgence at the expense of those who can least afford it was always the hallmark of ‘radicals’ like you, wasn’t it comrade?

Dave, no-one is suggesting a return the the 1970 and there are perfectly valid criticisms that can be made of New Labour from a left perspective. Some of Monbiot’s criticisms are perfectly legitimate as are those often made by Compass. And in what way does Monbiot support “slavery and the international capitalist legal order”?

And anyway, how the absence of NHS trusts would plunge us into the middle ages rather than say the condition of most western european states who exist without nationalized healthcare is quite beyond me.

NHS Trusts provide primary health care, if they did not exist then we would have to pay other providers. There is certainly waste and mismanagement in the NHS but if you are arguing that we have particularly high taxes because we have a nationalised healthcare system then this is nonsense. Despite the increases over the last few years our overall spending is on health is still lower than most comparable countries, and our level of taxation is not particularly high by Western European standards either.

Benji,

I agree with you regarding Labour’s campaigning tactics in Crewe. The blokes in top hats were bad enough - puerile, crass and embarassing, but printing leaflets encouraging people to vote against the Tory candidate becasue he “opposes making foreign nationals carry an ID card?” is downright nasty. Their behaviour has been a disgrace and they deserve to lose, let’s just hope they learn some lessons.

Just trying to square the apparent circle of a ‘white’ town grumbling about immigration benj. However I’m sure your shut up and stop whinging policy would be electoral dynamite though, sadly the nominations for the C&N by are now closed.

Come now Jon D, how many of those people moved there from less ‘white’ areas to use your terminology?

…I thought you might be able to string one or two sentences together to expand upon your definition of a truly “left-wing” government….As you can’t/won’t do this, I can only conclude that you don’t really know what you’re talking about and/or you are painfully aware of how ridiculous you would look were you to outline a policy framework that rendered Labour unelectable for a generation.

As opposed to you looking utterly ridiculous for supporting a policy framework that WILL render Labour unelectable for another generation?

Although, self-indulgence at the expense of those who can least afford it was always the hallmark of ‘radicals’ like you, wasn’t it comrade?

That’s a bit rich coming from a cheerleader for the Iraq clusterfuck.

Kinnock resigned SIXTEEN years ago. In what way would his return represent ‘Continuity’.

As in “continuity” of the New Labour Project. Something Kinnock was a catalyst for.

Obviously.

You don’t find the actual meaning of words very important do you?

I do. Whereas you have a pedant’s delight in finding fault, and a coward’s fear of actually saying anything of meaning.

And his wife is called GLENYS.

Apologies for the typo.

And if you weren’t so historically illiterate and/or politically ignorant you’d recognise that the Kinnocks have plenty of baggage of their own.

Being an Aussie expat who moved here in 1999, I apologise for mixing up Blair’s record with Hawke/Keating’s. Clearly it makes everything I’ve said irrelevant - allowing you to establish yourself as the intellectual and moral superior and, therefore, not required to address the point - a point, in fact, that wasn’t even addressed to you.

I’m part of the electorate not the political class. I’m a little busy raising children and paying taxes to write a decent, left-wing manifesto. However, I know one when I see one, and if I do I’ll let you know.

But you have plenty of time to slag off anyone who tries to debate actual political manifestos which exist and form important parts of our lives.

I also am raising a child and paying taxes - not too mention historically illiterate and politically ignorant. I should be more like you.

I guess it’s much easier to believe in a vaguely defined ideological symbol which requires no activism or engagement beyond internet comment boxes while allowing you a lofty sense of superiority and contempt for anyone who deals in the actual world.

At least you’ve got Monbiot articles to quote.

Still waiting for something to engage with, Jared.

Just let me know when you feel like sharing your truly “left-wing” blueprint for Labour’s future electoral success instead of pointing out insignificant typos in the contributions of others. I’ll be right here.

Historical errors of fact might be “insignificant typos” to you two, but some of us value historical accuracy.

Clearly it makes everything I’ve said irrelevant - allowing you to establish yourself as the intellectual and moral superior and, therefore, not required to address the point - a point, in fact, that wasn’t even addressed to you

I did address the point Phoney, (even though it was apparently a private one between you two alone). Your suggestion that Kinnock is the man to rescue the Labour party is risible - the party he led was rejected twice by the electorate. Almost as risible as your suggestion that Blair should return. And you claim to be someone who “deals in the real world.”

Dave - But redistribution is one of the characteristic policies of the left, historically, as is opposition to tyranny—in a way that support for slavery and the international capitalist legal order, alá Sir Moonbot, is not.

The redistribution of wealth is supposed to go FROM the rich TO the poor. Not the other way round. The second clause of your sentence is hilarious; funny enough to have me repeat my initial assessment; you’re a fucking idiot.

Brownie - I said some us wanted a left-wing government. At no point have I claimed to have either a manifesto or a blueprint for one. Does that mean I’m not able to point out the idiocy in yours and others’ comments?

I’m bored of you now, Jared.

You’re remarkably quick to use the term “risible” to describe other people’s suggestions on how to revive a political party you claim to “despise”.

Yet funnily enough, you’re remarkably slow to make any suggestion or statement or firm opinion of your own on any issue - even that of a truly left wing Government which you claim to be your political party of choice.

Enough fucking around. You’re a fraud. A gutless, creeping, sniping, snivelling, intellectual and moral fraud. You, like the white, upper middle-class pseudo-left frauds you identify with, are counting down the days to the new Tory Government when you can raise your families and pay less taxes and be able to pretend that it’s all Thatcher’s fault and you never ever had to do anything or have any opinion to make you A TRUE LEFT WING HERO - unlike that despicable cunt Tony Blair who failed to live up to your manifesto-less, blueprint lacking, vision of what a left wing Government is supposed to look like.

FOr fuck’s sake - don’t you realise what a stupid, spoilt, feckless prick you are? YOu don’t know what a left wing manifesto might look like? YOU COULD TRY READING MARX FOR STARTERS YOU FUCKING FRAUD!

JAysus Christ almighty…

Jared, you said

What we always truly wanted was a left-wing government.

You were then asked to elaborate what that might actually entail. You know. Policies. WHAT YOU WANT IN A GOVERNMENT. It’s not that hard.

And yet for some bizarre reason you get all defensive.

I’m a little busy raising children and paying taxes to write a decent, left-wing manifesto.

What?

Nobody was actually asking you to write an entire manifesto. Just a vague idea of where you stand on some issues. A few sentences? Is that so hard?

I said some us wanted a left-wing government.

Yeah I know that. You were eager to make the distinction between what Jared got (Blair) and what Jared wanted (a left-wing government). It’s pretty difficult for me to engage with that point if you insist that the “what Jared wanted” bit remains a secret.

Blair has dealt with this point many times before. It runs along the lines of

“We reformed the party in the mid-90s. We organised as New Labour, fought the elections as New Labour, and now we have peole claiming “betrayal” when they discover that we’re going to govern as New Labour.”

For the record, I wouldn’t mind a future government that was a little more left-wing myself. I’d also like a date with Helena Christiansen and a higher metabolism.

Can Harry’s Place put Jared’s contribution to this thread up as a permanent reminder of just how utterly vacuous the pseudo-left are?

David, it was benjamin who first raised the ‘whiteness’ of crewe. As for the current population of Crewe the Polish immigrants have apparently come from Poland and the existing population by and large already lived there afaik.