Harry’s Place

Feck me, Neil, I was just starting an almost replica post using the same picture and the same comment about the direction Lenin was facing.

I was toying with the idea of photo-shopping out the Chelsea crest and adding the Liver Brid.

Is it possible for both teams to lose, do you think?

I’ve got a bad, bad feeling the Chavs are going to win the game. And I wish I could find a way of avoiding having to watch them do it. Still, at least it’ll spare us from the Ferguson deification that is bound to follow a Manc victory. Oh, and don’t forget, Ronaldo shedding another bucketful of tears is always worth a laugh as well.

“Lenin seems to be favouring the blues, rather than the reds, but who do you think will win?”

And there I was thinking you were linking to Richard Seymour tipping the Tories to win in Crewe and Nantwich.

Silly me.

We all want Manu to win of course. We don’t want a dispute about how a team who lost the premiership can be better than a team who did win it, like we had with Liverpool the other year.

However the blues are certain to win on Thursday.

Okay I just saw the comment about Rangers and Celtic moving south. Martin Samuel was on about this the other day and appeared to be indicating that Rangers’ less than enthralling performance in the UEFA Cup Final confirmed that the Old Firm wouldn’t be up to it in the Premiership. Which to my mind, is abject nonsense.

In the last 6 years, 2 Scottish clubs (Celtic 2002-03 and Rangers 2007-08) have competed in the UEFA Cup Final. In the same period, Englsih teams have managed 1 representative in the final (Middlebrough 2005-06) despite having more entrants. Celtic beat Blackburn and Liverpool on their way to the final and amongst the Englsih teams failing to make the final in this 6 year period, we have Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton and Aston Villa.

Of course, the English top four have excelled in the Champions League but I’m not making a case for Celtic and Ranger competing for the EPL title. I’m just countering the nonsense that they wouldn’t be able to mix it with the best of the rest.

Only Manchester Utd and Arsenal top Celtic’s average attendance. Add Newcastle in front of Rangers, and this is whilst both are playing teams like Gretna four times a season. Take gate receipts plus the TV money from Premier League and the added kudos of playing in the world’s most exciting domestic compeition, and Celtic and Rangers start to attract and be able to afford the best players on the European circuit. So straight off the bat, the Celtic and Rangers teams that would be playing in the Premier League would already be several notches above what each can put out today. After a couple of years bedding in, I have no doubt that both would be on the verge of challenging the top four domination of the domestic scene.

Only Manchester Utd and Arsenal top Celtic’s average attendance. Add Newcastle in front of Rangers, and this is whilst both are playing teams like Gretna four times a season.

Newcastle finished 12th in the league with a poor goal difference. They could easily have been relegated.

After a decade bedding in, they have yet to dominate the domestic scene.

Neil D,

Finishing 12th means you have 11 teams above you and 8 below. If pundits want to make the argument that Celtic and Rangers would fare no better than Newcastle in the EPL - at least in the first few years - then I doubt I’d feel moved to argue the toss. Martin Samuel and most others like to peddle the myth of inevitable relegation for the Old Firm. Next year, this would mean finishing below all but one of:

West Brom
Stoke
Hull/Bristol City
Fulham
Bolton
Sunderland
Wigan
Middlesbrough

This is the fantasy that I’m countering.

In keeping with the Lenin statue, will they play the old Soviet Anthem? You have to admit it has a real stirring toe tapping melody?

Have a horrible feeling Chelsea will sneak it. They have nothing to lose - their manager’s probably off anyhow so will encourage a never-say-die attitude. If they win - he’s happy. If they lose but play attractive football it will be two fingers to Abramovich and he can rest happy that at least he tried to win the game.

Unlike the team of ‘99 which encouraged the opposition to score just so they could twat them in the 96th and 97th minute of a game and had genuine stars all over the pitch, this United team seems more nervous when things aren’t going their way. Admittedly their defence has been outstanding this season so it hasn’t been an issue, but it’s rare you see them battling from behind to win a game. That is in part due to the lack of a Keano or Schmeichel loudmouth to stop the heads from going down. The Neviller comes close but he’ll be on the sidelines for this game. Instead when Utd go a goal down you tend to see Rooney getting larey with the officials and the likes of Nani and Ronaldo falling all over the shop, whilst Carrick often looks forlorn.

In addition, United are second only to Arsenal in the bottling stakes. They bottled it against Milan and lost 3-0 last year (despite leading the tie) and bottled it against Barcelona and very nearly came unstuck, saved only by some fantastic defending. They also bottled it at Stamford Bridge when a win would near enough have won them the Premiership then and there.

Our head-to-head record with Chelsea isn’t good either - I know I’m not the only Red that would far rather have seen us play Arsenal or Liverpool, both teams that we know how to beat and with the latter have done so on a regular basis since Benitez took over.

That said, bring it on and let’s see the Ginger Prince have the game of his life and bow out in style a la Zidane against Brazil, rather than a la Zidane against Italy…

On Rangers and Celtic - Utd made Rangers look very ordinary a few seasons back, but Celtic bettered us on away goals and knocked a good Liverpool side out of the UEFA Cup so I wouldn’t say they’d struggle in the Premier League, bar the traveling. In fact, Celtic were only a few minutes away from taking last year’s CL champions to penalties which is more than can be said for Liverpool.

Incidentally - here’s one for Graham and Brownie to mull over - taking into account all the dodgy match-swinging decisions made over the course of the season into account, RightResult.Net have Everton finishing 4th this season above Liverpool. Due to a few dubious penalty-area manouevres by one Jamie Carragher no doubt!

Oh, and a sweepstake on how long before the infamous Park Ji Sung song is heard belting out around the stadium?

It all depends on whether he starts on not, but my guess: 25 minutes.

Brownie: ‘n the last 6 years, 2 Scottish clubs (Celtic 2002-03 and Rangers 2007-08) have competed in the UEFA Cup Final. In the same period, Englsih teams have managed 1 representative in the final (Middlebrough 2005-06) despite having more entrants.’

Periodization of football dominance is problematic - your timeframe handily excludes successive appearances by english clubs in the UEFA Cup Final, nemely Arsenal (losing finalists, 2000) and Liverpool (winners, 2001). Indeed, broaden the time frame to 15 or 20 years and the disparity in representation becomes fairly considerable.

However, I’d broadly agree with your thesis that English clubs have underperformed hugely in Europe. The debate over the true quality of the Premiership has been raging for a quite a while now, and I have to say that perhaps the best way to encourage EPL clubs to improve would be to reduce the number of European places.

This would be an antidote to the ludicrous position whereby Liverpool - formerly proud multiple champions of England - are now content merely to play for fourth place. The Premiership encourages and rewards mediocrity.

Periodization of football dominance is problematic - your timeframe handily excludes successive appearances by english clubs in the UEFA Cup Final, nemely Arsenal (losing finalists, 2000) and Liverpool (winners, 2001).

Shit, I know someone would notice.

If both sets of fans riot badly enough can both teams be disqualified and the semi-final losers play it out for the trophy?

By what outcome do I never have to hear of Alex Fergusson or that ‘magical night in Barcelona’ again?

God, I hate the Rags

Mike, you cannot compare the European Champions League with the Premier League (or any other league). The latter can be called the Regularity League: the most regular squad wins. The former can be called the KO League: the unexpected is possible (i.e. Liverpool).

I hope Manchester will get the trophy though… I don’t like “artificial” (with no history behind; only tons of cash) squads i.e. Chelsea.

Yes, I agree with Pierre. Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Michael Carrick, Owen Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani and Rio Ferdinand weren’t bought at colossal expense; they were grown from seeds.

Wardytron, but you forgot to mention that Manchester has a lot of “history” behind…

Chelsea is not even the weak side which managed to get to the final (like Liverpool a few years ago). We always tend to support the weakest side. But why should people support the Blues when we know the whole thing is “artificial”? A millionaire appears and wastes trillions… A weak team (à la Liverpool) is much more appreciated, because they have to face overwhelming obstacles… But Chelsea… ;)

Well done, Manchester, by the way.

The former can be called the KO League: the unexpected is possible (i.e. Liverpool).

How many times do we have to win it before it stops being “unexpected”?

Maybe win the league once or twice (well, once would be a start) and people might take Liverpool seriously. After all, if the CL is so hard to win, how come your average league position has been somewhere between 4th and 5th over the lifetime of the Premiership?

18 years is it?

OUCH!

Even Blackburn have more Premiership titles!

Still laughing that David May and Djimi Traore have more CL winners medals than John Terry though, hehe. There’s only 1 team in Fulham, 1 team in Fulham… etc etc.

How fitting that Giggs should score the winning penalty and Scholes should get a booking for a dodgy tackle that ended up with him looking like something out of BrainDead but still manage a gorgeous 1-2-1-2 with Wesley minutes later to set up Ronaldo’s goal, unmarked due to a central midfielder playing right-back…. Shame Tevez wasn’t on form or it would have been 3-0 and all over with little more than a third of the game played.

Good on Utd for managing to win the League and the CL in the same year - not many teams have managed that of late.

1) Lenin’s glance, as seen in the photo, is clearly a curse.
2) The period when it was considered rude for an English person to mention football to a Scot is over, but it’s still not clever to be rude about Scottish club football. Scottish fans have plenty to be pround of and others should respeoct it.