Harry’s Place

Mentally ill or mentally retarded? If the first he may well have been able to make bombs.

I’m a bit uneasy about Plod being so candid so early….

Of course it’s not Islam itself, because it could never be Islam itself, that is the reason this act was attempted. It has to be because the man is ill in some way. Not due to adopting Islam, which, as we all know, is 100% peaceful.

Truly despicable even by HP standards. Some sad deranged individual tries to blow up a restaurant and immediately the sinister dusky claw is afoot in the land, because only those devilish cunning muzzies know how to make bombs–the bounders.

Reilly… Mental illness

Jesus, sounds like you’re totally secure speculating on Islamist tactics here, Brett. Why not go nuts and present us with your other theories on Islamist terrorism?

Hey, why not tell us about the vast geopolitical implications implicit in this half-formed story? I’d be shy, myself, but you seem keen to crawl out onto the thinnest branches of credibility, taking the blog you post at with you.

Well, why not? It’s not as if there’s much credibility to sacrifice, after all these long years.

it’s probably best to wait until the full details of this appalling incident have become clear, otherwise people might shoot off their mouths and give vent to their prejudices, without the facts

it’s probably best to wait until the full details of this appalling incident have become clear, otherwise people might shoot off their mouths and give vent to their prejudices, without the facts

Thank you morality for that salutory reminder–to be sure it’s never happened here before.

Hey, the theory that his mental illness was exploited by others who “radicalised” him isn’t mine. In case you didn’t notice, it is the opinion of the Devon police and reported on the BBC, Associated Press, Reuters…

If the tactic of exploiting the mentaly disabled has been used elsewhere in the world, is there some reason why it is beyond speculation that it could be used in the UK?

Brett’s wearing his ‘What would Melanie write?’ thong tonight.

Yes Petit Canard Noir, because there’s absolutely no reason to believe that Islamists might want to blow people up. Absolutely no precident for it, right? Never happened before. Pure fantasy.

If the tactic of exploiting the mentaly disabled has been used elsewhere in the world…

I’ll presume you mean “At Harry’s Place”, and possibly “By Brett”.

It would explain a lot.

If the tactic of exploiting the mentaly disabled has been used elsewhere in the world, is there some reason why it is beyond speculation that it could be used in the UK?

Of course it isn’t. And if Brett’s hypothesis turns out to be true, I hope that fellow fingers the lot of ‘em.

“If the tactic of exploiting the mentaly disabled has been used elsewhere in the world…”

Are you denying that mentally disabled women were strapped up in suicide vests and sent into a marketplace to detonate in Iraq? Did this never happen? The news agencies, including Aljazeera, just made it up?

Is there any reason for Islamic terrorists to pick this target? From what I understand, this area had been a target for envioronmental extremists, who have committed a number of attacks there.

Are you denying that mentally disabled women were strapped up in suicide vests and sent into a marketplace to detonate in Iraq?

Unless you count schizophrenia and depression, yes, I will deny it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/middleeast/21iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

Personally, I don’t think that makes it any less despicable, but it does set off flashing red alarms screaming “Brett is a total bullshit artist”.

“From what I understand, this area had been a target for envioronmental extremists, who have committed a number of attacks there.”

Well (a) there doesn’t seem to be any suggestion that the bomber - who is in custody - was an environmentalist, and (b) having had lunch at a Giraffe restuarant recently, I can’t imagine why they’d be a target for environmentalists - there menu is quite “wholefoods” orientated and vegetarian friendly. They’re more a grilled houloumi on a bed or rocquet than a McMurder deal.

From what I understand, this area had been a target for envioronmental extremists, who have committed a number of attacks there.

Environmental extremists don’t have a history of exploiting mentally disabled people in this manner. At least not that I’m aware of. I don’t think even they could be that despicable.

“Unless you count schizophrenia and depression”

So now schizophrenia isn’t a mental disability? What is it, a mild paper cut?

What are you suggesting? That exploiting one form of mental disability is less dispicable than another. Turns out it wasn’t down syndrome, it was only schizophrenia. Phew, for a moment there I thought it a monstrous act.

What I don’t get is that you say it isn’t any less dispicable. So what’s your point?

Even if Islamists have recruited a mentally ill suicide bomber there is still some positive aspect to it: this would mean that they have failed recruiting a “proper” suicide bomber. Arab citizens of Israel could not have been recruited easily as well. The only suicide bomber among them had been so far Mohammed Habeishi - a mental case with drug problems

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/11/israel

Quite a few experts refute the claim that poverty and hopelessness are an important factor in the decison to turn into a suicide bomber by bringing the examples of 09/11 and 07/07. True, but these examples are the exception and not the rule. Most suicide bombers in Gaza and the west bank, aside from being motivated by national and religious causes, did not have much to loose.

Thanks for this piece Brett.

How unfortunate that the foul mouthed apologists for fascism are out in force tonight. Petit Canard, Fucking Obviously stupid, and buddies in spasms of apoplexy because the police believe that a mentally disabled guy may have been targeted and radicalised by jihadis. No doubt the same foul-mouthed cretins who fomented the lie that the 2006 Islamic plane bomb plots were all a fraud, and who propagate the lie that the 7/7 attacks were really a government conspiracy. Bust a vein you suckers.

Thank goodness for the efficiency and hard work of the counter-terrorism police, whose good work has limited the effectiveness of such bomb plots by extremists since 2005.

So now schizophrenia isn’t a mental disability?

Not in the same way Downs is, at any rate. It makes it no less dispicable, but this is just a symptom of the easy, who-gives-a-fuck attitude to news that’s typical of your worthless news analysis.

Turns out it wasn’t down syndrome

You thought it was, though. That’s why you wrote “mentally disabled” rather than “schizophrenic”… You never bothered to check.

What are you suggesting?

That you, Brett, are an utter bullshitter and you don’t know what you’re talking about, ergo we can disregard your opinion entirely.

Not that I didn’t before, of course.

Mental illness is different to mental disability, the two terms have separate meanings and are not interchangable.

Most suicide bombers in Gaza and the west bank, aside from being motivated by national and religious causes, did not have much to loose.

I don’t agree with that. I’ve been homeless, hungry, cold, you name it. Never once did I seriously consider suicide. Nope. This is pure religious indoctrination at its finest.

I hae eaten in that particular restaurant a couple of times. There was nothing obviously wrong with it, the food wasn’t at all bad. That part of Exeter has been redeveloped fairly recently and is no different from hundereds of other town centres in the UK. Completely incomprehensible as a target.

“You thought it was, though. That’s why you wrote “mentally disabled” rather than “schizophrenic”… You never bothered to check.”

schizophrenia is a disability, you twit.

It is “characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality, most commonly manifesting as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking in the context of significant social or occupational dysfunction.”

That sounds pretty fucking debilitating to me! It is not at all like depression which has psychological roots. It is a physical impairment no less so than down syndrome.

The dispicable act - which you admit is dispicable - was using people who were not able to think clearly or make an informed decision. It is fucking irrelevant what form or mental impaiment those women suffered from.

You’re so tied up in knots you talk in circles. You’ve already described the fact that the mental condition of these people was exploited as “dispicable”. Now you’re squabbling over the exact nature of their mental condition, as if it is at all relevant to the ethics of the situation.

God damn Al Qaeda are hitting us all over the place. Sons of bitches.

You’ve got to watch converts though, they’re often out to show how pious they’ve become, could be harmless like the starved catholics after lent Orwell refers to in his toad essay.

“I’ve been homeless, hungry, cold, you name it. Never once did I seriously consider suicide”

Most people don’t. In order to learn about the motives of suicide bombers, you must examine the motives of those who did blow themselves up and not those who didn’t. Anyway, religious (and national) indoctrination is definitely an important factor, but it does not explain everything. As an example you may ask why is it so easy to recruit a suicide bomber in the west bank, but so hard to recruit an Arab citizen of Israel or the UK for that matter.

It is “characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality…

Google search award to Brett, well done! I found the same page with a quick search, it’s totally informative.

which you admit is dispicable

I don’t admit it - it’s obviously despicable. Terrorism by its nature is despicable, as if it needed stating.

Now you’re squabbling over the exact nature of their mental condition

I think you mean I’m quibbling over the exact nature, which is pretty ironic given the circumstances. I’m not quibbling over anything - I’m saying that you, Brett, are an utter buffoon whose judgement is utterly unreliable, as proven by your citation of an event you haven’t researched at all.

You don’t have a clue about this Reilly guy, and neither do I. The difference is, you think you know everything about him already - I’ll wait and see.

You could be right, you know. It’s just that your sources, methods and conclusions are utterly ridiculous, and should be disregarded by all reasonable people.

As an example you may ask why is it so easy to recruit a suicide bomber in the west bank, but so hard to recruit an Arab citizen of Israel or the UK for that matter.

Alright. Why? Roadblocks, checkpoints etc? Still no reason to commit suicide. Roughed up by police? Been there, done that. Jail? Done that too. So in your opinion, what gives?

“I’m saying that you, Brett, are an utter buffoon whose judgement is utterly unreliable, as proven by your citation of an event you haven’t researched at all.”

It is NOT relevant what mental impairment the women suffered you loon. The issue is that people with mental impairments were used.

Now the Guardian is reporting the same as I did, that questions are being asked about who built the bombs - which are described as “viable” - because it is clear that the bomber didn’t have the expertise. I suppose they’re on a Melanie Phillips kick too.

Incidentally - not that its relevant - but the NY TImes piece doesn’t say they didn’t have down syndrome. It says it wasn’t noted in their case files, though one psychiatrist interviewed says be believed that at least one women was down syndrome.

We can decide for ourselves what to disregard, thankyou, without any foaming-mouthed instructions from a commenter who claims not to care what Brett Lock thinks or says, but then keeps on ranting about it anyway. Nitpicking, wilful disregard for the *facts* that Lock cites, and tedious repetition may all be fun for you, and they even made us laugh (at you, not with you) - but “reasonable”? Fuck off.

Congratulations on a brave attempt at self analysis.

“So somewhere out there, a very dangerous and dispicable individual or group is still at large”

The answer is on a much more general level I’m afraid. Roadblocks and rough police are not sufficient explanations by themselves. Yet, many suicide bombers in the west bank were tempted by Sadam’s $25,000 (for their families) since they felt they havn’t got much to loose. Desperate people (and mentally disabaled ones) are easier to recruit.

I thought the studies showed typical suicide bomber was comparitively well off and not particulally hopeless. Bit like the european middle class guilty radicals that helped the PLO hijack planes back in the day. i’ll stand corrected.

Yaniv,

Do you think it’s wrong to draw a connection between Islamism and suicide bombing? And yes, I know about the “Tamil Tigers” but they seem to limit their efforts to a relatively tiny geographical area. Even ETA appears to go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties.

And still people criticise Scientology for not being a proper religion because it “exploits” mentally ill people! Last time I looked no Scientologists had attempted to wreak death and destruction on a local eaterie…

Indoctrination is obviously the key.

How many volunteers would there be now if we said -

“OK - everyone under 25 - we want you to go off somewhere in northern France, sit in a water logged trench for weeks on end and then when we blow a whistle, head towards machine gun nests and artillery fire. Form an orderly queue.”

The people who would give you a resounding NO now are made of essentially the same genetic stuff as those who said yes just over 100 years ago. The only difference is indoctrination. We no longer tell people that would be a good idea. As soon as the vile preachers of Jihadi Islam stop preaching then there will be no more suicide bombers - guaranteed.

Hmmm that bagwan rashneesh (sp?) money cult thing tried to poison a restaurant iirc. Scientology does at least seem to have rational accountants and lawyers at the helm whatever weirdness they claim to believe about flying saucers and space monsters.

Brett’s wearing his ‘What would Melanie write?’ thong tonight.

If Melanie sold those, I would buy 10.

I had a look at the guardian and all I can see is that the police are examining the devices to see who assembled them… This could to imo the suspected bomber himself.

There’s no official police speculation about the suspects capability to assemble the bombs… And you wouldn’t expect any at such an early stage.

“I thought the studies showed typical suicide bomber was comparitively well off and not particulally hopeless”

I am not sure. The research so far is inconclusive. During the Intifada it started with educated volunteers, but later when the mass operation started most bombers were young and poor. One thing is, however, obvious: if you do not devalue your life, you do not commit suicide, but the reason for devaluation may vary: disabilities (mental or physical), some sort of brainwash (national or religious), or poverty and despair.

The profile of the “typical” suicide bomber is not unique. Returning to Brett’s post, it seems that Islamists in the UK need to recruit disable “warriors” since it is harder to brainwash young British muslims than, say, Iraqi ones.

Yaniv wrote: As an example you may ask why is it so easy to recruit a suicide bomber in the west bank, but so hard to recruit an Arab citizen of Israel or the UK for that matter.
Well there are other explanations rather more parsimonious than material deprivation here. Best to look for causes rather than simple clusters of casual correlation, there are enough exceptions to the material deprivation motivation for suicide bombers meme to rather cast doubts on that as the prime or even incidental cause. How many Christian Palestinian suicide bombers have there been? The West Bank and Gaza is saturated with death-cult Islam - it seeps out of every pore. Suicide bombers are lionised, shrines are set up to them, streets are named after them, young boys play at it. Suicide bombers family gets dosh after they’ve popped - from Muslim benefactors. I suspect this may have something to do with the cluster effect in that part of West Asia.

What percentage of the suicide bombers in Iraq are materially deprived, poor locals….I can tell you for sure, most of them are not, a high proportion of them are Saudi’s

As ever, Sam Harris articulates these points especially well:
Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. If you doubt whether the comparison is valid, ask yourself where the Palestinian Christian suicide bombers are. Palestinian Christians also suffer the indignity of the Israeli occupation. This is practically a science experiment: take the same people, speaking the same language, put them in the same horrendous circumstance, but give them slightly different religious beliefs–and then watch what happens. What happens is, they behave differently.

Last year we had medical doctors in a giant flaming zippo lighter crashing into glasgow airport.
I reckon we’re going to see more self-radicalised attempted suicide bombers in britain, riley may be one. Hopefully they’ll all be as inept. Just a guess.

Oh the White Heart on South Street in Exeter used to be a bit of a local for me a while back when I was based down the road at Lympstone.

Chef Gordon Ramsay (my new favorite reality show guy) would probably say something like “Why do you ignore what’s right in front of your fucking face? What are you? A fucking moron??” :D

Why this restuarant, well the owner of this chain is Jewish and the sister-in-law of the owner is an anti-Jihadist activist. That could of course be a coincidence, but I am shocked that this happened in the South-West.

David H, currently it can only be considered a coincidence. We have only a few garbled reports, so circumspection must be obeyed. We’ll have plenty of time later. But…

… I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there is something disreputable and shifty about hiding behind ad hoc monikers (The Fucking Obvious and Petit Canard Noir). This story will be on the front-pages today and, guess what, this is a blog (and not yours), so opinion is to be expected. If you disagree with Brett’s missive, say why and desist with these snarling and aggressive demands that he take it down and bend to *your* will. My guess is that neither of you would make the grade for a cabinet position in your own kitchens.

==> Some sad deranged individual tries to blow up a restaurant and immediately the sinister dusky claw is afoot in the land, because only those devilish cunning muzzies know how to make bombs–the bounders.

If this were a suicide-bombing attempt, unless it was part of a protection racket by the LTTE or overspill from the PKK, chances are it was a Islamic related matter.

Fwiw I’ve seen an internet report that a neighbour says that riley has a mental age of 10. If that’s right it’d imply an IQ of around 50 which is of course mental retardation. Guess it’ll come out or not in the coming days.

Why this restuarant, well the owner of this chain is Jewish and the sister-in-law of the owner is an anti-Jihadist activist. That could of course be a coincidence, but I am shocked that this happened in the South-West.

Well you’re as useful as tits on a boar then, eh? If you’re going to be a target of extremist kooks, then don’t bloody do it half-arsed! Put the fucking IDF flag out front and let’s get on with it.

David H, currently it can only be considered a coincidence. We have only a few garbled reports, so circumspection must be obeyed. We’ll have plenty of time later. But…

Oh crap. I thought David H was role playing. Oops.

If riley is mentally retarded I wonder if if came into contact with radical Islam through any muslim care workers or similar… Just pure uninformed speculation on my part of course.

We have loads of Polish immigrants in this country. Their home country does not suffer from this problem - we should ask them why not.

Then, G Orwell (breach of trade description act, surely), we should ask those British African or West Indian or Asian who’ve reported instances a racist abuse from some Poles, or think about decades of post-WWII antisemitism and the common thuggery of the Self-Defence Party. Or is this only a parochial mind-set of the personal threat, and hang other groups, which Canuckistani does so well?

Poland doesn’t have a problem with care-assistants being gunned down by Nigerian immigrants. We should ask them why not.

‘Oh the White Heart on South Street in Exeter used to be a bit of a local for me a while back when I was based down the road at Lympstone’.

Were you a bootneck?

Back on topic, we have to wait and see what happens, but right now I can’t help thinking about the plot of ‘The Secret Agent’ (as far as Mr Verloc’s use of his brother-in-law is concerned, not the agent provocateur angle).

‘it’s probably best to wait until the full details of this appalling incident have become clear, otherwise people might shoot off their mouths and give vent to their prejudices, without the facts’

Yes, like Salma Yaqoob, ‘Dancing Cows’ Naseem and our very own ’sonic’.

I just had a funny thought. Instead of “…you might be a Redneck.”, how about “…you might be a Muslim.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuiCnQc17jg

What modernity said.

Before the inevitable head-chopping remark comes, I will point out that there have been more such killings in the UK by Lithuanian Lutherans than Muslims.

Boogski, look at the Jihad Watch thread on this incident, one of the earlier comments.

I’ve got 5 pounds that says Brett is right. Islamist scumbags took advantage of a mentally diminished person. That will be the finding of the court.

Now who wants some of me? :D

“If riley is mentally retarded I wonder if if came into contact with radical Islam through any muslim care workers or similar… Just pure uninformed speculation on my part of course.”

Now that is a scary thought, its as scary as having to keep information from the police and social services in terms of women leaving their wife beating husbands.

I’d rather no, David H.

Everyone, calm down and take Modernity’s wise advice.

Boogski, look at the Jihad Watch thread on this incident, one of the earlier comments.

Ah. Got it, David H. I really did think you were role playing. There are some clever bastards who comment here. That’s why I love this place.

Whilst I have no doubt that islamists are willing to exploit the mentally ill and those with learning disabilities, you really should recognise that there’s a fundamental difference between the two.

If you’re disabled, having a learning disability or similar like those women in Iraq, then your capacity to carry out technical tasks like bomb-making or for that matter plotting an attack may well be limited. If you’re mentally ill, e.g. depression, bipolar disorder etc you are more than likely to have the same technical abilities in terms of what you can learn, plan and carry out as anyone else.

It’s a crucial distinction - a disabled person may well be forced into an attack carrying a bomb made by someone else, but a mentally ill person is much more likely to be pressured into violent extremism and make the bomb, plan the attack etc themselves. Important differences in capability and vulnerability!

A lot of people are, you cretin.

Incidentally, neighbours are telling reporters that the man had a mental age of 10.

Anyone still believe he made the bombs himself?

If you’ve ever been to Giraffe you’ll know it’s one of those family-friendly places with an “eclectic” menu ie enchilladas, stir frys, burgers, burritos etc. Initially I thought the police would be looking for someone with a grudge against Mexicans, Malaysians, Thais, Americans, Italians, Antipodeans, and people from Exeter. Naturally I was worried I might be a suspect.

If only we’d change our foreign policy to be less upsetting to the mentally ill.

‘Most suicide bombers in Gaza and the west bank, aside from being motivated by national and religious causes, did not have much to loose. (sic)’

Motivated to murder whoever gets within their rage range? Maybe one day these poor little lambs will decide that by working hard and using their ‘creativity’ to plan and build their civil society, economy and families may just be a better way of getting on in life. You know real sacrifices rather than the cowards way out or that a love of death based on pure hatred qualifys your entry into paradise and a few girl-childs as well.

No different from the people that carry guns and opt for the criminal career path here. It makes them feel brave and powerful when they are in fact choosing weakness and cowardice.

Nah, if only we did not strip the oh so heroic Mahdi death squadder from his dignity when we broke down his front door and glanced at his uncovered multiple wives. The anti-Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) racism permeating at HP is soooo odious.

It’s 5 o’clock in the morning here in the USA, which is so far free of exploding Muslims. Surely much of this argument will be settled by events. Still, I won’t be at all surprised if a bomb-making terror cell is rolled up in the next few days. Neither will you.

So who wants to take Sonic up on a little bet that this story falls apart by next month at the latest?

Any chance when talking about mental illness posters here could avoid derogatory language - ‘mental retards’, ‘mental cases’, ‘nutters’ etc - as someone that suffers from bipolar affective disorder I find such language as offensive as racist and homophobic language (niggers, poofs etc)

Anyone still believe he made the bombs himself?

I believe we should wait for the evidence.

Good news on the freedom front. I hear that Americans will be allowed to provide cell phones to our Cuban neighbors. And why shouldn’t they have cell phones and computers? They work just as hard as you or I.

sackcloth and ashes Were you a bootneck?
Gulity as charged - so did a little time at the resort that is CTCRM at Lympstone on the Exmouth road, regular runs ashore for a bit of trapping and a few wets in Exeter. It’s a really nice town..that is apart from all the 50s shiite buildings put up to fill gaps left by the Luftwaffe efforts.

Anyway back on topic….Healthy wait-and-see scepticism is one thing; but abject wishful thinking in the face of parsimony accompanied by a snarl is rather another.

Here we have an attempted suicide bombing, neighbours and police describing a retarded pious Muslim convert.

Somehow I rather doubt the upshot of this will be that the poor, seemingly rather sad fellow was inspired by the Sally Army or excessively close scrutiny and literal interpretation of the texts of War Cry.

So who wants to take Sonic up on a little bet that this story falls apart by next month at the latest?

I was hoping someone would take me up on my bet, dammit!

Not one single skeptic in the crowd? Come on. I can call your neighborhood pub and you’d have a drink on me.

@Alec Macpherson
“G Orwell (breach of trade description act, surely),

Why he wasn’t a fan of fascism of anytype ? After all saying Islam is peace is certainly Orwellian like

@Alec Macpherson
“Poland doesn’t have a problem with care-assistants being gunned down by Nigerian immigrants. We should ask them why not.”
Actually he was from Sierra Leone - of course in a lot of counties e.g Switzerland he would have been deported in the past, when he broke the law before.