Harry's Place

Note that eyewitnesses saw the helicopter/plane doing the bombing. Until it turned out that there wasn’t one.

It also sites bomb factories in civilian areas: deliberately, so that when Israel targets them, it scores a propaganda coup by allowing them to blame Israel for any civilian deaths which ensue.

The four-month-old baby that was killed in the explosion was the child of one of the bomb-makers.

Perhaps it was a “bring your child to work day”.

Without a doubt, something needs to be done to ameliorate the progressive emiseration of the civilian population of Gaza, whose rulers took power in a coup which resulted in the deaths of several hundred people.

However, it is difficult to see how an effective international aid can be properly delivered, when Government officials responsible for holding the purse strings are also personally involved in making the bombs which are aimed at their neighbours, and whose government attempts to disguise explosives as bags of EU food aid.

er…nice sentiment but those civilians elected Hamas, still support Hamas, & agree with these policies. Bomb factories in civilian areas? Only with approval – they are happy to take the damage.

The civilians elected Hamas in one election, which did not give them executive power. That, they took in a coup, which was immediately followed by the utter suppression of all political opposition.

it is difficult to see how an effective international aid can be properly delivered

The reason it is difficult is because the majority of the ‘international aid’ givers see Israel, and not Hamas, as the problem. It doesn’t matter how many babies Hamas admits to killing, it will always be Israel’s fault. To admit otherwise would probably result in their brains splitting in two.

Isn’t it time for the EU to step in and advise Hamas on safe manufacturing practices?

A prime case here for Health and Safety intervention. We have loads of experts just itching to get in there and a brigade of these brave men and women can be airlifted over at short notice as a key factor in our extensive aid programme.

Peace may take a while in getting to the region but at least with out help it will be a “safe” conflict.

The civilians elected Hamas in one election, which did not give them executive power. That, they took in a coup, which was immediately followed by the utter suppression of all political opposition.

Do you hear any complaints? Any calls for freedom in Gaza from the Islamist oppressor?

On the contrary I remember AFP describing Gaza as experiencing it’s first days of “freedom” under this regime.

And I’m sure Reuters would say the same, maybe even the BBC.

Israel could end the Gaza problem with no shots fired at all. Just cut off all electricity and deliveries to that pest hole until they unconditionally surrender. See! Easy, n’est pas?

Seymour you make more sense than anyone (other than me) will admit in this comment section.

Israel must be the only country that supports an enemy state that is making war on itself… That’s completely insane even in principle.

It’s not humanitarian to enable unending warfare.

Do you hear any complaints? Any calls for freedom in Gaza from the Islamist oppressor?

Who knows if there were? With the main news agencies being in thrall to Hamas (and Hezbollah of course) anything could have happened with the west none the wiser.

Seymour Paine wrote:

“Israel could end the Gaza problem with no shots fired at all. Just cut off all electricity and deliveries to that pest hole until they unconditionally surrender. See! Easy, n’est pas?”

this is the type of sociopathic nonsense that stirs up hatred and keeps such conflicts going

it is based on the faulty premise that:

1) Gaza could be hermetically sealed
2) that it would be possible to turn of all services
3) that the Gazans would “surrender”
4) that peace would reign afterwards?
5) that no one else would intervene or commit bombings in Israel, whilst this is going on

each of these is faulty, not least the fact that the ordinary Gazans don’t have much control over their own lives, they are led by a group of highly organised, well armed theocratic thugs

so any attempt to do this would play into Hamas’s hands, apart from the fact it is not feasible, Hamas would simply have to blow the walls between Gaza and Egypt

apart from breaking any number of international laws and playing straight into the hands of the theocratic thugs, no doubt such actions would heighten tensions with Israel’s neighbours and lead possibly to another regional conflict

this is the type of idea which has no merits, and who’s only purpose is to satisfy the articulator’s thirst for vengeance or blood lust

it doesn’t bring peace to the region, quite the opposite it inflames the situation, not that the articulator’s could think it thru or realise the consequences of such actions, or that they are bothered too much either way

What is especially interesting about this story is that the big media outlets ran prominent features based on the original (i.e. Hamas) version of events, but were almost totally muted when the real version materialised. I analysed this here

http://edgar1981.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-story-but-not-news-changed-in-gaza.html

“Also killed in the explosion were the finance director in the Hamas Interior Ministry – who was also a member of Izzadin Kassam – a commander of the Hamas anti-aircraft unit and a commander of the group’s rocket manufacturing unit”

This is all so confusing. Does it make him a member of Hamas’ Political Wing or its Military Wing, or does he (probably not she) count in both columns? If the latter, does that get him double rations from UNRWA and an extra count in the demographic stats?

It seems the BBC bought the propaganda and then placed a non-sequitor “Israel kills 6 year old” into a shill piece for Hamas. Hence, BBC have propogated a lie and issued no retraction http://theymadeitup.squarespace.com/the-latest-news-and-discussion/2008/6/15/bbcs-hate-for-israel-is-too-obvious-this-time.html

@modernity, in that case, since they are ruled by a theocratic mob who have no concept of democracy then let’s get up a coalition to invade Gaza and install democracy. They already have someone the West will talk to in Abbas so lets do it.

Its not as if a coalition is seeking to deny the Palestinians a state. Quite the opposite, they would invade Gaza to re-unite the Gazans witha peace process.

I really don’t know why we don’t do it. Gaza is easy compared to Afghanistan or Iraq

It is hard to know who this “6 year old girl” is.

The child killed in the Hamas explosion was four months old.

There doesn’t seem to be any reference to any other killing on the BBC’s Middle East page.

No, Modernity. It is based on several ideas: 1) You owe nothing to your enemies; 2) why risk your life to feed and clothe your enemies? 3) Why continue the dangerous cat and mouse game where Hamas lobs missles into Israel and every now and then, Israel bombs Gaza. Can you tell me one other country in the world which sustains its enemies at risk to its own citizens? Can you tell me the name of any other country which sacrifices the safety of its citizens for the welfare of its enemies?

It was only the other day that TheIrie was insisting that Palestinian Terrorist do not use civilian infrastructure as shields against Israeli reprisal. Of cause at the same time he was telling me that ALL Palestinian civilian deaths are Israeli fault. So I am sure he chalks these deaths up to Israeli military action, irrespective of the fact that Palestinian Terrorist activity was the causative element.

Palestinian life is a tragedy. The real tragedy is not their lack of an independent political entity. The tragedy is that their leaders have LESS regard for their lives than their enemy. It is ironic, but from the Terrorist perspective, kill an Israeli and they win. Have a Palestinian die and they win as well.

The way to end the conflict in Israel is to forcebly disarm the non-government militia, and to pinish those elements of society, on either side of the conflict, who persue their own foreign policy (by engaging in terrorism or non-government mandated settlement activity – although the two are not morally equal). Until the PA can guarantee that they speak for the Palestinians AND they can and will deliver on their promises persuing peace is a futile effort.

I have a sincere question for bloggers here:

Imagine that this bomb making factory was bomb by the IDF, and that these civilian deaths occured as a result.

The IDF, and we, kniw that this was a bomb making facility, perhaps even a planning facility, (Hamas admit as much), and we know that it was deliberately located in a civilian house, with infants and children located in the house and immediate vicinity.

My question is this, given the facts as we know them about the activities in that building, if Israel had bombed it, who would be morally culpable for the “non military” death?

Further, if your answer is Israel, how do you propose that Israel defend itself against an enemy that uses civilian infrastructure, children and infants as shields against their own sinister activities?

Imagine that this bomb making factory was bomb by the IDF, and that these civilian deaths occured as a result.

My guess is that Israel knows about most bomb factories and chooses not to attack them because of the civilian casualties. We have seen how Hamas milk it with lies. Imagine if it really had been Israel. Hence, I believe Israel tends to concentrate on the cars and vans transporting the stuff and waits until there aren’t civilians around.

Here’s my moral dilemma:-

If people want Israel to proportionally respond then doesn’t this give Israel the right to return an equal number of missiles and mortars into the general direction of Palestinian villages with targetting circuits switched-off to emulate the randomness of Palestinian missiles and mortars? Isn’t that fair?

“And I’m sure Reuters would say the same, maybe even the BBC.”

Certainly there’s every chance Barbara Plett would have a tear in her eye as she reflected upon this new dawn of freedom…given her feelings on Yasser Arafat saying his last goodbye to the land of his birth. Sorry, not the land of his birth. That was Egypt.

Meanwhile…

The only solution to the Gaza problem is a military one, involving the Palestinian presidential forces based in the West Bank entering and subduing Hamas. However, that is only a solution if the West Bank Palestinians are prepared for peace. They might be. It’s no inconceivable, since the path of war inevitably leads to victory for Hamas.

The glorious able bodied men and women of Gaza, the mothers, daughters, fathers and sons, have once again demonstrated their readiness to place their own infants, and their old folk, in harm’s way. And that’s why they keep getting what they keep getting, and that’s why they keep telling themselves it is someone else’s fault for striking back. And also it is someone else’s fault when the neighbourhood bomb expert sneezes at the critical moment and blows up the neighbourhood.

Not allowing some jihadi creep to use your children’s nursery as a launch pad, would require resolve, courage, and actually loving your children, seriously. Almost as if your kids were real people, and not just another form of ammunition to inflict on the other side.

Unfortunately, they voted for the jihadi creep.

modernity:
What international laws would Israel be breaking if it declined to supply Gaza with fuel and electricity? Should the Allies have been required to supply Nazi Germany with fuel and other supplies so that it could continue its war of aggression? Hamas was elected by the Palestinians and, from what I read, Hamas is still very popular among Gazans. Shouldn’t we stop treating the Palestinians like children and require that they bear the consequences of their own choices?

“@modernity, in that case, since they are ruled by a theocratic mob who have no concept of democracy then let’s get up a coalition to invade Gaza and install democracy. They already have someone the West will talk to in Abbas so lets do it.”

Maven, you were being sarcastic of course.

By now it must have sunk in that the Palestinians have no concepts of democracy, responsible government, freedom. But they do believe that God will reward anyone who kills Jews.

The only solution is for God to come down, bring miracles and convince them that killing Jews isn’t a direct road to heaven.

We’re all waiting for that to happen and for peace to finally reign over the middle east.

Couple of things. First of all, clearly, Hamas is 100% in the wrong here. This is also the clearest evidence I’ve seen of the convergence between the political and militant wings of Hamas, and it massively discredits that organisation, and supports the hand of those wishing to isolate it. I basically agree with David’s post, but for his conclusions. The only thing I would take issue with is that this event is the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore, there is a question of how representative the Hamas official is? I won’t presume to answer that, I merely ask the question. Anyway, I still believe the way to deal with Hamas is through negotiation, as I’ve always said, to strengthen the moderates, open a political, diplomatic path forward, and isolate the militants. But, yes, I re-iterate, this was a crime of the first rank committed by Hamas.

Less seriously, Joe says: “It was only the other day that TheIrie was insisting that Palestinian Terrorist do not use civilian infrastructure as shields against Israeli reprisal. Of cause at the same time he was telling me that ALL Palestinian civilian deaths are Israeli fault.” This is all completely untrue – I’ve never said either of those things. No doubt Modernity will provide the quotes to prove my point, so I won’t bother.

I find Hamas’s eventual admission the most intriguing thing about this story. Out of all the things you can reasonably condemn Hamas for you can praise those officials who made (muscled through?) the admission that the 7 deaths and 51 injuries in Beit Lahiya were Hamas militants fault – an admission which reflects badly on Hamas and gives mileage to Israel and supporters of Israel. It seems to me that this admission makes Hamas more of an organisation Israel can do business with than if they hadn’t made it.

The delusional wishful thinking never ends.

Who me? Why did Hamas admit it, then? Don’t you find it interesting? I realise that one reason might be that Hamas are in such a bubble that they doesn’t understand how badly the admission reflects on them (that might explain why they talk about “martyrs” and “holy war” rather than criminal irresponsibility). This would be in keeping with their wider sabotage activities. An alternative reason is that Hamas is split into officials who want to admit these things and those who want to hide them. In which case, more power to the ones who want to admit it. That’s my only point.

TheIrie, go to elderofziyon.blogspot.com and have a quick trawl. You will find that these events ARE NOT the exception but the norm. I’ve read about two or three dozen of these cases in the last year, possibly more.
Let’s get one thing straight. Hamas are a fanatical, fascist militant Islamic group dedicated to the extermination of Israel and all the Jews therein. How on earth do the silly lefties think they can be bargained with?

This is also the clearest evidence I’ve seen of the convergence between the political and militant wings of Hamas, and it massively discredits that organisation, and supports the hand of those wishing to isolate it.

The idea that Hamas as a reputation that can be discredited is absurd; they are simply and only a fanatical, murderous, anti-Semitic organization which has massive support among the wonderful citizens of Gaza.

What Israel owes Gazans is beyond me.

Mira

You know attempting to rationalize extremists in this way will likely be an exercise in fultilty. Are we meant to thank them for their honesty, their forebearance this time?

Mira,

I assumed that it was just Hamas trying a little spin control. I think they were bright enough to figure out that their first response – blame Israel and fire rockets – wasn’t going to work and that the truth was going to come out soon enough, so Plan B was to admit it and present it in terms of ‘martyrs of the resistance’. What’s new?