Harry’s Place

Interesting post - thanks.

Yeah, the Israeli-PLO Agreement at Oslo has really brought lasting peace to the West Bank. When will Israel learn that the Palestinians, whether, Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Lebanese Hezbollah want Israel’s destruction and will not cease till they do so. Their plans of suicide bombing failed, but their plans of lobbying rockets with increasingly range to make life for Israelis unbearable are suceeding. Hezbollah forced Israel to retreat in the 2006 Lebanon War, now Hamas has suceeded in making Israel do so in the Negev. And remember it is just not Sderot anymore, Hamas’ rockets have hit Ashquelon(?) and, after they rearm duing this Hudna, will no doubt be hitting well beyond that. A rearmed Hezbollah’s rockets can already blanket most of Israel. Are all of Israel going to live permanently in shelters? Why should Hamas & Hezbollah agree to anything beyond a temporary truce? They are winning after all. Most important reputation comes from surviving, not what the BBC, New York Times & Washington Post thinks! Israel should remember this.

So to be so rough on you, S.O., I do not like disagreeing with you, but what have written here is my opinion.

I am tempted to agree with David All, as it has been my opinion that such a Hudna would ultimately play into Hamas’s hands in at least four ways:

it shows that they have finally brought Israel to the table, and thus enhances their prestige

it allows them to rearm and build missiles (instead of crude rockets) with much longer range, probably encompassing the whole of Israel

it enhances Hamas’s reputation in the Arab world and will allow massive funding of their military operation in Gaza

it formalises the split within the Palestinian movement and potentially leads to Hamas’s ascendancy

there is probably a few more but that is enough

having said all that, I welcome the truce because it should improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians and Israelis, I don’t know if it will hold or if it will ultimately lead to a larger conflict once Hamas have restocked, re-equipped and been made military ready, but I think it’s worth a try if it helps ordinary people

Hamas declared truce unilaterally and ahead of Israel ’s agreement, to preempt a possible rejection by Israel which would then be portrayed as a rejectionist. I can see mainstream media falling for this–or if not falling then at least reporting it this way–but it is very sad to see the blogosphere following suit. Where, if I may ask, is Shalit? Or, to quote Israeli officials:

“Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in response to the statement that “we are currently examining the possibility of reaching a truce in the near future – but it’s too early to announce it.

“The IDF is prepared for any development, but it is important to maximize the chance for a truce in order to promote calmness among the Gaza-vicinity communities as well as negotiating to release Gilad Shalit,” he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3556908,00.html

It’s worth remembering that HAMAS think it has been foreseen that they will retake the whole of Israel in the future. A few days/weeks/months “peace” is neither here nor there based on their historical perspective.

The hawks are sad, a good move towards peace.

good point Neil,

another fine example of Hamas’s “moderate” leadership!

“With the arrival of that black scorpion with a cobra’s head, Condoleezza, I began to worry that she would use her venomous fangs and hiss to kill this initiative and new spirit that we should protect.

[...]

The arrival of Condoleezza Rice is not a good sign. An even worse sign is the meeting between the Palestinian leadership and the Zionist entity, in the presence of that scorpion-cobra. Condoleezza Rice, you are not welcome.”

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1793.htm

I wonder how the Hamas apologists will explain the above racist statements against Condi Rice?

Flanker is overjoyed. Another bad sign, that this is just a pause untill Hamas is ready to start the next round.

To repeat what I said above. The best reputation is to be a winner.

Have to remember to Flanker & Co., Peace means the destrtuction of Israel.

The best reputation is to not be sore losers. Take your lumps and move on.

none has the ability to inflict a decisive blow

All Israel has to do in Gaza is cut them off; not even fire one weapon. Just turn off the electricity, water, food, medicine, etc., and wait. Now, you may say this is cruel, blah blah, but in fact, they can do it; they have the physical capacity to do it, so your premise is wrong. They may not do it for various reasons, but they certain are able to, with a cost of $0.

let’s ignore the likes of Flanker, he’s just parroting whatever comes out of the Presidential Palace in Caracas

Oh, and here’s the report from CNN just now:

“Palestinian militants and the Israeli military traded violent attacks Wednesday, a day before a truce was scheduled to take effect, according to the Israeli military and Hamas.
Israeli tanks

Palestinian militants fired more than two dozen rockets and mortars on southern Israll, but there were no casualties, the Israeli military said.

Israeli aircraft responded by targeting two rocket-launching sites in northern Gaza, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

One of the airstrikes killed an Islamic Jihad militant and injured four others, Hamas sources in Gaza said.

Hamas officials said Tuesday they had reached an agreement with Israel for a six-month cease-fire — to take effect at 6 a.m. Thursday. Israel did not confirm the deal until Wednesday morning. Egyptian mediators helped to negotiate the agreement.

Militants in Gaza have launched more than 2,300 mortars and rockets since the year’s beginning, while 2,000 were fired in all of 2007, according to Israeli military figures.”

Two dozen rockets! Great start to the millennium of peace muffin seems to think is just around the corner. Any bets on how long this farce will last? One day? Two days? A week? I say, no more than two days.

Seymour Paine wrote:

“they have the physical capacity to do it, so your premise is wrong.”

I have explained to you why this idea is nonsense, before, step by step but instead of logically replying all you came up with was idiocy

violence is not a solution and if you put aside your sociopathic impulses for a moment you’d see why that’s the case

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/06/16/death-comes-to-beit-lahiya/

The IDF General Staff is holding back … because of hard-nosed assessment of the situation.

I share Mr Muffin’s pessimism, though I think he is not quite pessimistic enough. The traditional hudna in Islamic doctrine is only a temporary truce, with the intent of regrouping for the next campaign. So I would characterise the two sides differently, and do not see any missed opportunities - I see the Arabs as always negotiating in bad faith, and deliberately scuppering any opportunity as soon as it looked as though it might succeed. For example, while Arafat was negotiating with Clinton and Barak, Fatah was planning the second Intifada - all they needed was a suitable pretext. Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount was seen as inflammatory (though it was only equivalent to Bush visiting Bethlehem), but not quite enough to warrant outright hostility, so with the unwitting collusion of a French TV station, they concocted the Al Durah hoax.

So the IDF is able but unwilling to take Gaza, and Hamas is willing but unable to take Israel. I do not see the IDF ever being willing to take Gaza except in the direst need, while I see Hamas as being restrained only by their impotence. The net result is the same - stalemate, but the motives are worlds apart.

The old adage stands: If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

No you didn’t explain anything. You just basically bent over and let one loose and pretended it made sense. In any event, the point is not whether it is a wise or decent policy but whether it is possible and it certainly is possible (and of course I think it is the best possible policy vis-a-vis Gaza, reduce them to the point where they can barely even squeak).

But if you actually want a point by point (although I hasten to add your babbling really cannot be categorized into different points, regardless of your silly attempt to add numerals here and there) here goes):

The fool modernity says of my idea (i.e., turning off all electricity, water, food, medicine, in short, all communication from Israel into or out of Gaza until Hamas surrenders unconditionally):

1) Gaza could be hermetically sealed: No, just from Israel, but it’s a lot
2) that it would be possible to turn of all services: again, no; just from Israel. Egypt is not interested in helping Gaza; and it is too poor to do so in a large way
3) that the Gazans would “surrender”: OK, if not then they all die, so what? Problem solved.
4) that peace would reign afterwards? Whatever comes afterwards, an unconditional surrender would give the Israelis the chance to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza; arrest all members of Hamas and return Gaza to a more decent way of life
5) that no one else would intervene or commit bombings in Israel, whilst this is going on: no one apart from Hezbollah will intervene; no one cares at all about the Palestinians

each of these is faulty, not least the fact that the ordinary Gazans don’t have much control over their own lives, they are led by a group of highly organised, well armed theocratic thugs—who cares? They elected the scum; they now have to live with that choice.

so any attempt to do this would play into Hamas’s hands, apart from the fact it is not feasible, Hamas would simply have to blow the walls between Gaza and Egypt: again, so what? they cannot get electricity and water from blowing up walls. The Egyptians will not furnish Gaza with medicine.

apart from breaking any number of international laws–what laws? Israel owes Gaza nothing– and playing straight into the hands of the theocratic thugs, no doubt such actions would heighten tensions with Israel’s neighbours and lead possibly to another regional conflict

Paine, I have explained it, altho I doubt you even read it:

“modernity 16 June 2008, 1:41 pm

Seymour Paine wrote:

“Israel could end the Gaza problem with no shots fired at all. Just cut off all electricity and deliveries to that pest hole until they unconditionally surrender. See! Easy, n’est pas?”

this is the type of sociopathic nonsense that stirs up hatred and keeps such conflicts going

it is based on the faulty premise that:

1) Gaza could be hermetically sealed
2) that it would be possible to turn of all services
3) that the Gazans would “surrender”
4) that peace would reign afterwards?
5) that no one else would intervene or commit bombings in Israel, whilst this is going on

each of these is faulty, not least the fact that the ordinary Gazans don’t have much control over their own lives, they are led by a group of highly organised, well armed theocratic thugs

so any attempt to do this would play into Hamas’s hands, apart from the fact it is not feasible, Hamas would simply have to blow the walls between Gaza and Egypt

apart from breaking any number of international laws and playing straight into the hands of the theocratic thugs, no doubt such actions would heighten tensions with Israel’s neighbours and lead possibly to another regional conflict

this is the type of idea which has no merits, and who’s only purpose is to satisfy the articulator’s thirst for vengeance or blood lust

it doesn’t bring peace to the region, quite the opposite it inflames the situation, not that the articulator’s could think it thru or realise the consequences of such actions, or that they are bothered too much either way”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/06/16/death-comes-to-beit-lahiya/

each of these is faulty, not least the fact that the ordinary Gazans don’t have much control over their own lives, they are led by a group of highly organised, well armed theocratic thugs

What happened to the Gazans is the same thing that happened to the good Dr Frankenstein. The monster they created and applauded got out of control. Let them stew in their own jihadist juices until they develop some political maturity and scrub their toilets clean of the extremist crap they blessed themselves with.

The rockets will return because they work and no one seems to be able to come up with a solution to combat them. Whatever deal is made it should be stated that each new rocket attack will result in a closed border for a specified length of time.

I cannot believe the sheer cruelty expressed by Seymour Paine. Thinking that the death of Gaza’s citizens is an acceptable solution to the problems presented by Hamas and others who refuse to accept living with Israel - good heavens, are we living in the Middle Ages?

Also, I reject the pessimism. So don’t tell my shrink - but I don’t see an acceptance of the truce as a weakness by Israel OR Hamas, but rather as a compassionate realization that the lives of ordinary people are important. Hamas’ reputation hasn’t been enhanced by the attacks on the crossings or on Fatah and other Palestinian factions and the ceaseless rocket attacks on innocent Israeli civilians damage the Palestinian cause morally. Of course Israel can’t win in the media in any case but that’s beside the point - the main point SHOULD be to realize that people are suffering and anything we can do to alleviate that is to the good.

Sheer common sense dictates that the crossings be safe for food, medicine and other necessities to cross from Israel into Gaza. Of course it would be better if Egypt were also recognized as having a border with Gaza (hint hint). That said, Egypt itself is confronting food shortages and poverty, and rising fuel costs compounded with massive flooding of American farmlands don’t look to help the situation - we literally are all connected - each and every one of us, all over the world. So too much rain in Iowa eventually translates to unaffordable wheat in Egypt -

I believe we’re not only connected, but that we are all responsible for each other on this planet - maybe the Arab-Israeli conflict, with all its ironies, is a microcosm and a reflection of greater tragic absurdities that dog us all. So, we have to start somewhere, don’t we?

One of the exacerbating factors in the Arab/Israeli conflict is the constant sense of grievance, demanding retribution in blood. Reduce the bloodshed, improve peoples’ lives, and maybe some creative solutions can be introduced. We’ve got to keep hoping. We must continue working, communicating, talking to each other even if the talks aren’t always official.

In fact the only real reconciliation will occur when people connect as individuals, see each other as brothers, partners and friends - and incitement from people outside the conflicted region has been a long-standing and ugly source of violence.

Thus, I do not see that suggesting medieval “solutions” is helpful. Nor is pessimism, however well-founded by historical example. Who knows - maybe even a few weeks of relative calm will enable real steps forward.

‘let’s ignore the likes of Flanker, he’s just parroting whatever comes out of the Presidential Palace in Caracas’

Although I haven’t heard our Venezuelan friend say that it’s about time FARC laid down their arms and surrendered their hostages (as a somewhat embarrassed Hugo has just done). Just as I haven’t heard him clarify his comment about how Bush had his Reichstag burned.

Back on topic, it’s a good, thought-provoking post from S.O.M, but I have little faith in Hamas’ ability to be pragmatic. I hope I’m wrong, but I fear I’m not.

Its becoming impossible to tell the difference between Harrys Place and the BNP/dhimmi watch website these days.

Lets get a coalition to deal with another Islamist regime created by Hamas in Gaza. Its an Iranian satellite. Its little different from the Taliban.

Or plan B. The proportional response. Israel should have just returned teh same number of missiles, rockets and mortars (unguided) to match Hamas efforts. The people will soon pressure Hamas to stop and precipitate a civila war. Self-destruct.

Israel is right to do this for one reason.
Hamas will lose support with a period of peace.
I don’t believe that the majority of Palestinians are anti semitic nihilists.

“Some HP commenters are quick to evoke World War Two and expect IDF armoured columns to roll into Gaza, thereby determining the outcome of the conflict.”

You are in correct, Israel does not lack the means to achieve a military victory, but it lacks the means to achieve a political victory. The reason is that the “Palestinians” never lose. No matter what happens, they are supported financially by the US/EU and Arabs states. They never pay for their mistakes. The only way to stop unguided missiles flying across the Gaza/Israel boarder is to have the UN/Arab league and HAMAS demand it. However, the Israeli government hasn’t worked out how to make this happen; but I have.

The IDF should have their suppliers make and initial batch of 10,000 Qassam 3 missiles, each armed with 10 Kg of explosives. The IDF should then launch 1000 a day into Gaza. The UN/EU/Arab league and HAMAS will go nuts at the firing of unguided weapons on civilian targets, and demand that they stop. All that is then required is that the ban on firing such missiles applies to ones going East to West, as it does when they travel from West to East.
Some things are very simple.

Hamas offering a truce to Israel is like Herr Ribentrop signing a peace treaty with Comrade Molotov. Does Operation “Barbarossa” ring a bell? Flanker, who boasts he has an unequalled knowlege of WW2’s major military, can tell you all about it.

“By the same token, all the Qassams and “martyrdom operations” lead Hamas and other Palestinian factions absolutely nowhere. Essentially, Palestinians pay the price but receive very little, if at all, in return. This can go on for a while but not indefinitely.”

This is a very weak and faulty analysis. The Qassams have been doing precisely what they are intended to do: weaken Israel’s resolve and spread anxious thoughts of the future, casting doubt on the state’s viability.

Let us always remember just how tiny the populated part of Israel is. It’s a sliver of land surrounded by hostility.

I think the reason Hamas have signed up to a truce is because their people’s morale is suffering and because they fear that the PLO will be seek a military solution.

Generally speaking I think a truce with genociders is nearly always a mistake. The only possible justification is that Iran, an even bigger threat of genocide, will be disappointed by this truce and feel more isolated.

However we know that secretly Hamas will be looking to their Iranian allies to supply bigger rockets for the next phase of the war.

Well, Sophia, I don’t know what’s more cruel, letting its citizens suffer constant bombardment for years and do essentially nothing or stop supplying its enemies. What does Israel owe the people of Gaza? They are avowed enemies of Israel, in fact, of Jews everywhere. Why should they live due to the kindness of Jews in Israel and return that kindness with rockets? The easiest path is for Israel to cut off all communication with its mortal enemy (and, Sophia, note that as far as I know, Israel is the only country, perhaps in human history, that has sustained its enemy).

Supporting the status quo while making oneself feel better about their own enlightened moral relativism and dogmatic pacifism. I think that covers it.

this is the type of sociopathic nonsense that stirs up hatred and keeps such conflicts going

Utter nonsense. The entire of every institution in Palestine (and the surrounding countries) are devoted to stirring up hatred and keeping the conflict going.

You can not face reality at all. This is just sad.

And Seymour has a point that Muffin can’t actually support any of his premises.

Nothing is likely improve if you can’t face reality and deal with it. The prospects are for unending tragedy.

Sophia, Israel doesn’t choose to be at war… The Palestinians have the option to make peace. Of course they should be forced to take that step. They’re entirely unwilling to do so when not forced.

This is what war is like for 99% of humanity. Strange that it’s supposed to be different only for the Israelis.

Israel cannot win, Muffin?
Yes we can. If Israel, the EU/US and UN stop paying for Palestinian rockets (you know, Hamas knows that money that doesn’t need to go for aid to the Palestinian people can be used to make rockets), we could enter some sense in their heads.
Sadly, Muffin is part of the chorus of yafei nefesh that convince politicians that Palestinians should never pay for their mistakes.

Sadly, Muffin is part of the chorus of yafei nefesh that convince politicians that Palestinians should never pay for their mistakes.

Exactly. Until such time as the Arab opponents of Israel receive a beating on the similar depth and scale as to Germans or Japanese did in WW2 and go through the same psychological trauma and subsequent attitude adjustment, there won’t be peace.

Good comment by Sophia.

It truly pains me deeply to positively quote Tony Blair on this, but one thing he said on the Today programme a while ago was absolutely correct, that the first thing you have to do in this situation, priority number one, is to simply stop the violence. Nothing else can possibly happen until the bullets stop flying. A temporary truce is a truce. Lets have it. Lets hope and pray that both sides can stick to it. Lets remember that the elements on both sides that want to destroy it will be working overtime to do so, and lets alienate them by rejecting violence. This is step one on the road forward. Bravo Israel.

I am delighted that several commenters here have discussed the issue that I posed (somewhat elliptically) in my post, that nobody, not even the military might of Israel, can win this conflict – and, to clarify matters, I mean “win” in a classical, military sense of the word. I am delighted although, of course, I am unhappy with a fair share of opinions expressed above.

Leaving aside Morgoth’s foaming in the mouth and Fabian’s intriguing idea that it is Israeli money that enables Hamas to produce Qassams, let me take on the rather more serious option of (a) classical military victory, and/or (b) hermetic siege.

Classical military victory is attainable against classical military opponent. The problem for IDF is not that it doesn’t control territory – after all, few years ago, with the Givati Brigade all over Gaza, the situation was, if at all, worse. Victory in this kind of conflict is not a matter of destroying enemy hardware and logistics, dispersing massed hostile forces and interdicting troops in the classical textbook manner. Using army in a semi-police role is totally different to standard warfare. Flushing out terrorists, hidden within hostile, yet non-combatant population, is exceedingly difficult – witness Northern Ireland and, for that matter IDF during the first Intifada. The only real manner of doing it is by buying or earning the allegiance of (some of) that non-combatant, yet hostile, “background population” – but in this particular context it means far-reaching concessions of precisely the kind advocates of a “military solution” are unwilling to contemplate. Otherwise it is sending your soldiers on a hiding to nothing, paying a bloody price with a stupid “consolation” that the other side is paying even more.

Something that armchair warriors tend to forget – unlike real soldiers – is that Clauswitz was right and warfare is the continuation of politics by other means. Not an end in itself.

And this brings me to the even-more risible idea, that of a hermetic siege of Gaza, darkness and hunger bringing Hamas to its knees. Leaving aside the sheer inhumanity of this proposal – and Sophia was typically eloquent on this score – let us talk specifics. How long will it take till Gaza is starved to an almost-death? A month? A month of constant television footage from Gaza of babies dying in darkened hospital beds, of school children increasingly resembling Bergen Belsen survivors… How long before Israel is forced to cease the siege? How long before sickened public opinion in Europe, in the States, in Israel, brings all this nightmare to a stop? How long till Egypt snaps and opens its border with Gaza – and then what, Seymour Payne, invade Egypt?

It is always a good rule of thumb not to do what your enemy wishes you to. It was clear for the last few months that the more extreme wing of Hamas (Muhammed Zahar, the commanders of Izzadin-el-Qassam Brigades) wished Israel to invade or impose a hermetic siege. They are perfectly willing to pay the price in dead Gazans (and it tells us something about them) because it brings them nearer to their goals. Why, for goodness sake, should Israel do their bidding?

I am repeating. There is no military victory in this conflict! Neither to Israelis nor Palestinians. Either the two sides can find common ground and compromise, or they can make each other’s life and their own into ongoing sheer misery. It is really as simple as this.

” How long will it take till Gaza is starved to an almost-death? ”

Muffin:
No electricity and no fuel from Israel. That is my proposal.
I have never said: “no food”, “no water”.
But people were able to live, although very uncomfortably, for hundreds of thousands of years without the above.
Without the above, however, Hamas will certainly fall.

“Fabian’s intriguing idea that it is Israeli money that enables Hamas to produce Qassams”

I could have clarified what I meant, but I thought it was enough. Israel helps Hamas by giving Gaza resources, no money, energy. Lets cut it off.

Israel does not lack the means to achieve a military victory, but it lacks the means to achieve a political victory. The reason is that the “Palestinians” never lose. No matter what happens, they are supported financially by the US/EU and Arabs states. They never pay for their mistakes.

Yes exactly.

The same principle applies to the PA, Hamas, or Hezbollah. There is no reason not to adopt the most extreme position possible. It doensn’t take long til the UN, EU, or whomever starts to try to meet them half-way. UN cartographers determined that Shabaa Farms is not part of Lebanon, but changed their minds so that Hezbollah wouldn’t treat them as the enemy.

And now this “ceasefire” is the perfect cover that the EU needs to begin “humanitarian” financial aid to Gaza.

So, um, Muffin, remind me:

Why does Hezbullah (continue to) vow to wipe Israel off the map?
Why does Iran (continue to) promise to eradicate Israel?
Why does Hamas (continue to) repeat its goal of destroying the Zionist Entity?
Why does the Palestinian Authority (continue to) claim that there can be no peace with Israel until Israel agrees to withdraw to the May 1967 borders and repatriate all Palestinian refugees to within pre-June 1967 Israel?

Unless, it’s just to win friends and influence people….

muffin’s response is worthwhile and intelligent. I believe he is wrong, however, on the issues.

First, about sealing off Gaza. muffin asks, How long? The answer is easy: As long as the Gazans wish it. Sealing off Gaza, whether completely, as I urge, or simply cutting off electricity and fuel, as Fabrian suggests, leaves the decision in the hands of the Gazans. As for Egypt, let Egypt open it’s borders. In that case, Israel could also cut off water and food and let Egypt annex Gaza. Yes, there will be an outcry in some parts of the world. Israel would have to do better in presenting its case (it does an absolutely abysmal job currently). The question always comes back to this: Why should Israel help sustain its enemy? Muffin fails to answer that. And not just an enemy, but an enemy who attacks without mercy, who attacks randomly. The enemy is not just a few political groups, but most of Gaza.

As for a military victory, how is that not possible? Israel has the ability many times over to destroy Gaza. In Gaza, the “background” population is entirely committed to killing Jews. They support the shelling of Israel, knowing full well their rockets are random. They don’t care.

Wooly brained do-gooders, represented by the likes of Sophia, seem to think there is common ground. I don’t believe there is any. The goal of Hamas and most of Gaza is the destruction of Israel. Where is the common ground in that? As in the case with Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, you have to establish common ground by beating the enemy into total submission.

Reduce the bloodshed, improve peoples’ lives, and maybe some creative solutions can be introduced. We’ve got to keep hoping.

And if you are the EU or a European gov’t or the MSM, you believe that this entails that Israelis (in general but esp. in Sderot, Ashkelon) just soak up the rocket attacks. But you won’t actually say this, instead you will pretend that a bunch of right-wingers putting up a dozen trailers and calling it a “Settlement” is some horrible obstacle to moving forward.

What Alcuin said.

‘The answer is easy: As long as the Gazans wish it’ - Would that be determined by a Hamas held election in siege conditions? Or a civil disobediance campaign lauched by members of opposition parties that have not fled or lauched off the top of buildings? Indeed with a zealous band of fanatics in charge of a ‘Council of Blood’ with a supreme monopoly of violence and large scale funding from Islamists in Saudi and the Gulf plus an porous border with Egypt, I suggest that such a siege would reinforce Hamas and the wider narrative of the Islamists. Indeed given the ‘eternal Jew’ template used in middle eastern media and ‘anti-imperialist’ outlets, Hamas are on a win-win scenario

‘the “background” population is entirely committed to killing Jews’ - even Danial Goldhagen qualified such statements, and he’s an idiot.

Hamas at peace is a busted flush, they cannot govern. The longer the peace, the more evident to everyone that they are merely idiot savants with guns. Yes, they will attack again, as will Hezbollah, each time, spending their ‘legitimacy’ and each time delivering nothing.

Israel is a strong wealthy democracy who needs not sully itself with tactics that are below its good moral standing. Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah want to pretend that Israel existence at stake, it is not. The state of 1948 will see its 100 aniversary, Hamas won’t see their 40th. Make the incompetants govern and see them fail

socialrepublican: How does defending your citizens from cruel rocket attacks by an enemy which wants to eliminate it equate to tactics below its good moral standing?

I am very pleased if there really is to be a Hamas ceasefire. But watch out for the people who aren’t. They won’t be on the Islamist side, nor will most of them be Israeli.

With this and with the Obama candidacy, we have the double opportunity to insist that the tiny little tail that is a (not terribly grateful) minority even within the extremely small country in question, itself the most militarised on earth and with hundreds of nuclear weapons, will no longer be permitted to wag the dog that is at least two, and increasingly three, permanent seats on the UN Security Council.

Which brings one to this post. The Israelis themselves are on the cusp of peace both with Syria and with Hamas, basically by recognising Zionism as part of their past rather than their present. Good for them. Why aren’t you happy for them? Why do they have to organise their affairs in order to suit your prejudices? Who do you think you are?

This morning’s radio news broadcast by the BBC’s Canadian twin included an item filed by Margaret Evans, reporting from Gaza, on the truce. Among the assorted soundbites was one from a Gazan university lecturer named “Shaheen”, who opined that the reason the truce wouldn’t last long was because, “the Israelis will never accept a neighbour that will not accept Israel’s right to exist.”

I do not think he was trying to be ironic.

And meanwhile, elements in the UCU presume that Israeli academics are guilty by virtue of complicity with Israeli government policies deemed to be human rights violations.

But has a single “pro-boycotter” given a moment’s thought to the contribution that the post secondary education system in the PA (which did not exist prior to the dread “occupation”), has, under the PA’s stewardship, made toward the promotion of hatred and cultivation of terroists amonst its student body?

I mean how many educational institutions would put on a very special montage like the one representing the carnage at the Sbarro Pizzaria so that students could go and gawk and laugh. And aside from such special exhibits, walls that are festooned with pictures of “shahhids”, and no doubt lots of songs of praise to them piped in to public areas as well.

Ignore David Lindsay. He is a complete and utter anti-Semitic Twit. Notice how he implies the Zionists, i.e. the Jews control America, Britain and I guess France. Oh and for the record, North Korea is by far the most militarized country in the world, not Israel.

cruel rocket attacks indeed, as are cruel suicide bombers as are cruel sniper attacks and mortar fire. These are not existentual threats to Israel, ‘merely’ brutal and callous acts of fanatics who give not a jot about the people they claim to be fighting for and who hate their victims entirely. There is no need to compromise democratic morality that suggest collective punishment is deeply anti-individual, that meaningless violence is kept meaningless by not joining a spiral of bloody exchange, not playing the poisonous game of social scission. This is what democracy costs. I expect from my democracy to celebrate its essence in holding to principles and I am fearful when it does not i.e. internment, 42 days and calls for ‘420 days’ (but that is a different debate). These fanatics are hateful towards the things that make Israel a democracy, free press, indenpendant jucidary, universal franchise, public debate, a host of voices and choices, the wish to question force. These are unbeatable, they need not be suplimented.

Gotta go, Gin Palace floors to scrub

These are not existentual threats to Israel, ‘merely’ brutal and callous acts of fanatics who give not a jot about the people they claim to be fighting for and who hate their victims entirely.

Yes but what about Sderot? Evacuate it?

What happens when Hamas gets Hezbollah-style longer-range rockets? Evacuate Ashdod and Ashkelon also?

Anti-Semitic, David All? You’ll have to do better than that.

Israel long since gave up on being a Jewish State and became just an obsessively non-Arab one which flies in all and sundry (Russians who won’t eat kosher food and insist on taking their IDF oaths on the New Testament alone, Russian Nazis, East Africans who have invented a religion based on the Old Testament brought by Christian missionaries but who make no claim to Jewish descent, Peruvian Indians “converted to Judaism” and put on the plane as a single act, all sorts) in order to preserve a non-Arab majority.

But the single most common name for newborn boys *inside the pre-1967 borders* is still now Muhammad. So the Jewish Establishment is Israel has decided “Sod this. We are in the Levant, where Jews have historically done well anyway, so let’s get on with it. What have the Crown Heights and Golders Green lot ever done for us? If they’d really cared about a Jewish State, then they’d have come here and never required us to import all these funny people.”

Good for them, and I hope it pays off. I think it will. And the likes of you will just have to deal with it. It is not “Jews”, but people who cannot win elections in Israel and people who will do anything for (a fantasy version of) Israel except live there, who have wildly disproportionate influence in the US, the UK, and increasingly also France, though mercifully not in Israel.

But not for much longer in the US, thankfully. So for how much longer here or in France, either?

I keep hearing how the single most common name for newborn boys in ….. (fill in your own blank) is Muhammad, but what does this mean? Simply that nearly all Muslim families call their sons Muhammad. So if ten Muslim boys are born in a given period, nine will be called Muhammad, while if 100 Jewish boys are born at the same time, they will probably have 200 names between them (like the number of opinions held by their parents).

“Simply that nearly all Muslim families call their sons Muhammad”

I think that that one should just be left as it stands. Time to go home, Elaine. There’s a glass of wine with your name on it, and you can’t possibly get to it too soon. You’ll be so mucH better in the morning.

what a nasty piece of work that Lindsay character is

Again, the criticism leveled at suggestions of aggressive tactics toward Gaza always assume that Israel is unique among nations in that it has to sustain its enemies. If Dublin lobbed missiles at London or Belfast and wouldn’t stop and called for England’s demise, how long before England attacked Dublin or Ireland? And if the attacks didn’t stop the missiles and if Ireland depended on England for electricity, how long before the power lines were cut?

For fucking God’s sake, Israel actually delivers supplies to Gaza and gets its trucks attacked for the effort. Why they owe these monstrous people anything is totally beyond me.

I control the US David Lindsay? That is sooo nice to know.

Wish I’d known it soonere–I would have directed a few thousand at least dollars into my bank account.

Thanks for telling me now at least.

Regards,

Inna

David Lindsay, your raves, rants and insults really do prove what a nasty little shit you are!
In the inmortal words of that Great American, Bugs Bunny:
“What a Maroon”

“Israel is a strong wealthy democracy who needs not sully itself with tactics that are below its good moral standing. Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah want to pretend that Israel existence at stake, it is not. The state of 1948 will see its 100 aniversary, Hamas won’t see their 40th. Make the incompetants govern and see them fail”

Utter bullshit.

A democracy (Israel) should be responsible to the needs of its own people and not to any self-chosen enemies.

What Israel needs to do is end the threat to Israeli lives. That’s it’s responsibility and nothing else.

It’s not “stooping” to end a conflict, it’s taking your responsibilities seriously.

If I were an Israeli, I would be agitating to see the war ended by ultimatum. Israel needs to regain its credibility as a deadly enemy and give its enemies the clear choice that all war poses, peace or destruction. That’s not inhuman as long as the choice of peace without extortion is offered.

You Europeans can not distinguish an aggressor from a party that wants peace. How you can be so ethically incompetent I have no idea.

As for Muffin, he loves straw men, hyperbole and arguments cut short by assumptions that no one else makes. I think I can assume that if he could answer the actual positions of his opponents he would.

“This is what democracy costs. I expect from my democracy to celebrate its essence in holding to principles… ” (socialrepublican)

When you got London bombed you bombed the shit out of Dresden. Don’t come to me so “we are better than you”. Because you are not. In fact, you have always been worse. There isn’t and never has been country in the world as restrained as Israel.

Problem with minorities? Greece expelled all of them except a mere 2% of the population. And those, Greece removed them the citizenship so now they are stateless persons with a law which was in force until 1998 (!). nothing more was needed afterwards… Still, the Partenon is a nice view, right? and everybody loves to dance like Zorba…

Fucking double standards regarding Israel.

Josh Scholar and Fabian: Amen, Brothers, Amen.
Fabian, when you refer to Greece removing cititzenship from minorities. Do you mean all non-Greeks or just a specific group like the Turks?

S.O. Muffin, Social Repuiblican, Sophia, etec.
Israel reaps the wages of appeasement. Hezbollah says they will stay in existence even if Israel gives them Shebaa Farms. No problem says Olmert, he is ready to give up all of the Golan Heights and much more to win the favor of the BBC, etec. Read “Hezbollah sees role beyond Israel leaving Shebaa Farms” at http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080619/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictlebanonisraelhezbollah (Hat tip to Little Green Footballs)
& “Olmert: Israel ready for major concessions” at http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3557941,00.html
Can Israel find a new Prime Minister before Olmert gives away Tel Aviv?

Seriously S.O. & company, where does the retreat stop? How many dead will Israel have to suffer & towns to be evacted from rocket attacks before you stop worrying about what those eunichs at the UN & EU think? The idea that there is no military solution is utter nonsense. It may take reducing the Gaza Strip to rubble and leave its inhabitants “nothing, but their tears to weep over”* but it can and if need be hopefully will be done. As for afterwards re-installing the Military Government that existed prior to Oslo would be a good place to start. Prior to Oslo there were no rocket attacks from Gaza Strip against Israel.

*General William T. Sherman in 1864 when he ordered his Union Army to burn Atlanta. After that Sherman’s Army Marched through Georgia to the Sea and then through South Carolina, freeing Black Slaves and burning southern farms and towns. Sherman broke the back of the Confederacy thru this cruel campaign which ended the bloodiest war in American History. Social Republican, I am not troubled by laspes in democratic decency by Sherman and his Army. It was brutal what they did, but it had to be done to preserve the United States and bring Freedom to all its People, regardless of Color.

What are Israel’s objectives?

1 - To stop the rockets and mortars on Sderot and elsewhere.

2 - To rescue Gilad Shalit.

3 - To force Hamas to recognise Israel or, since it will not, to weaken and discredit it, reduce its ability to acquire weapons, training and cash, and keep it from improving its toe-hold in the West Bank.

4 - To encourage the Palestinians to develop a leadership that is willing to recognise Israel’s legitimacy and permanence, and able to deliver a real peace.

5 - Absent 4, to strengthen Abbas as the relative moderate compared to Hamas.

And, if you want to be cynical,

6 - To save Olmert’s neck.

Hamas’ goals?

7 - To cling on to power at all costs and by any means.

8 - To resist all pressure to recognise Israel’s right to exist.

9 - To buy breathing space and enhance its ability to rearm and prepare for another round.

10 - To build political strength against Fatah on the one side, and Hamas’ own rivals in psychosis, such as Islamic Jihad, on the other.

Did I miss anything? So who gains most from a cease-fire? From its list, Israel gets (1) — for the moment, has gained nothing I can see on (2) and loses ground on (3), (4) and (5). Olmert gets (6) — but only if, and for as long as, the Israeli public thinks it has gained something worthwhile. Hamas meets its goals on (7) through (10). Israeli and Palestinian publics both get something good out of it in the short term, but only until Hamas is ready to go at it again. What’s the likely upshot of all these gains and losses? More and worse violence a short way down the road.

If it were my call, I think I would have continued to quarantine Gaza, which seems to be working at least in terms of creating Palestinian disgust for Hamas and buddies, but in addition I would do this: Every hour on the hour, I would break into every Palestinian radio and television broadcast, and every time I sent the IDF into Gaza I would leave handbills on every Palestinian door they passed, and pasted over the face on every ‘martyr’ poster. All would say the same thing:

- Israel does not want to be your enemy, does not want to expel you from the territories and would prefer to see you prosperous, sovereign and at peace with each other and with us.

- But Israel will respond to _every_ act of aggression, and if perpetrators or leaders hide among civilians, those civilians will be in danger.

- 80 years is long enough. It is time for Palestinians to accept that not only they _but also_ the Jews have a legitimate claim to self-determination within the boundary of the old Mandate. Peace for Palestinians will grow from that single act of recognition, and from nothing else.

David: Greece did that with thousands of Greek citizens of Muslim religion who stayed in Greece after the wars with Turkey. They still called them “Turks”.
HRW used to have a page about Greek stateless persons, but it is not there anymore.
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/ghm-22-9-1999-stateless.html

Israel closed the crossings because Hamas would not stop and encouraged the rocket fire.

If Hamas now does stop the rocket and mortar fire, from all groups, then Israel has no need to keep the crossings closed.

Result.

Oh, and it’s funny how Flanker thinks that makes Israel and her supporters losers.

A truce in which Hamas is constrained to do what she should have done three years ago does not strike me as making Israel a loser.

Oh, and it’s funny how Flanker thinks that makes Israel and her supporters losers.

A truce in which Hamas is constrained to do what she should have done three years ago does not strike me as making Israel a loser.

Interesting dilemma here, since it appears the Tomb has finally banned me. Are UK Left blogs just going to become echo chambers? It seems they can’t stand input on urban warfare even from an EMT with a lot of war zone experience, if he’s an Israeli with links to the current Israeli theoretical experts.
Seems I’m too Zionist and too anti-Hezb and anti-Hamas for their taste.

Also, I’m a bit non-plussed about the state of political discourse in the UK, if Islamists and SWuPPies advocate and use violence, why aren’t they marginalized? Is it just that “real people” have too much to lose by opposing them? If you upset Gordon Brown, he won’t have you to tea. If you upset Hizb ut-Tahrir, you lose your head.

I was able to watch a Zionist “piling-on” on Ghada Karmi, who really deserves better, earlier this year and part of me suspects that the mutual recrimination and bannings are a game. Which makes me wonder why Flanker, et. al. are still here. Entertainment value?

Hi Eurosabra, I read your post on the Falujah thread.

1000+ dead, millions of bomblets in her fields. May Hizbullah have many such victories.

Ghada Karmi does not recognise any legitimacy in a Jewish state. She may talk nice, but she is quite pathological about it. For her, to recognise any legitimacy in a Jewish yearning, need, or both, to return to the land is a crime.

She may talk nice. But there is no talking with her.

BTW,

I thought you did very well on LT. You were informed and informing, always spoke in measured tones, were invariably polite to, to put it nicely, a bunch of nutters. What is more you contributed to the discussion without displaying an obvious need to win it. There are many objectional things on HP, but not the same pathological hatred, and endless scatological and sexual (often inseparable) obscenities that made their users personal neuroses hang out like an untucked shirt.

Right, Zaki, but it’s disturbing that the major forum of the SWP is such a zoo/asylum, now that Mike Marqusee has decided to bring their approach to New York’s anti-Zionist scene. Um, anyway, I’m far too doctrinaire, though I live pretty much as a non-statist Zionist–anyway I am far too linked to local Palestinians in the exile medical community not to think that the border is a hindrance, and state-based solutions too far in the future to help my constituency (patients, whether Israeli or Palestinian) so LT was pretty much the only “discussion” of the Palestine Question I indulged in. I think Helena Cobban’s excellent Just World News is the last place I am still not banned.

Ghada Karmi is very interesting, since she even pushes the PLO line on the “al-Buraq” Wall, but lived around UK Jews. So she is conversant with UK secular Jewish Zionist culture and blames it for oppressing and shaming her, “among friends”, even as she treats the Bais HaMikdash as a hallucination.

I wish Shabbos were coming in earlier, I’d write less utter rubbish. Mainly, I am going to be looking closely at the medical transfer figures as soon as the Gaza-Israel crossings reopen. So there is grounds for hope.

Eurosabra,

what was so nuts re. LT is that they treated you as some kind of ultra-Zionist. Basically, you were their whipping boy upon they vented their (transferred) hatred.

Karmi, in In Search of Fatima, recounts being at a Jewish wedding and describes the guests’ singing HaTikva as deliberately choking her.

In a sense living in comfortable, secure North London, now Exeter, like Tamimi, allows her to push the most extreme Palestinist lines, without any recognition that there is any other legitimate side at all. Abusive pro-Zionists do not help, and merely serve to confirm her in her stance. But she was there anyway.

I’m doped up on painkillers right now and about to fall asleep.

Thank you Fabian for that information and link. I agree that what the Greece did to the Greek Moslems was horrible, not that no one much cares or even knows about this.

Eurosabra: Welcome to HP. Your comments are very interesting. Look forward to hearing more from you.