Harry’s Place

And when Islamic terrorists carry out a raid and kill 100 tourists - it will close!

The evacuation of the Israeli population living on the territory of the park will be carried out within 5 to 15 years from the date the agreement is signed by both parties

I disagree with that bit. Strongly.

You might as well as Morgoth’s lot to clear off out of Country Antrim so that my lot can have our access to the Giant’s Causeway less impeded by the potential sight of the odd scottish flag or occasional sash or red-white-and-blue kerbstone.

Co-existence is what needs to be promoted.

Otherwise (and although I try to be optimistic), what Maven said, unfortunately.

This sort of thing sounds all a bit unprecedented and unrealistic. I certainly couldn’t see it working in other disputed territories where there is as much fanaticism, nationalism and hatred abounding between rival groups (eg Nagorno-Karabakh), or where people are determined to live only with “their own kind” (see above)

I disagree with that bit. Strongly.

You can’t really compare a region captured 40 years ago to one settled 400 hundred years. And, if you counter “Well, it’s the principle of the thing”, that principle would then apply to 4 years or 4 months.

P.

I can’t for the life of me imagine how Syria would be able to handle peace with and recognition of Israel. After all then it would be incredibly difficult for it to justify the “state of emergency” which has been imposed on the Syrian constitution and is what keeps the Ba’ath party in power.
Not only that but it’s the last shred of legitimacy the Ba’athists have.

Also I can’t even for a minute imagine how the Syrian media will deal with such an event. Would the state run newspapers such as “October” which read like a Combat 18 publication, all of a sudden produce editorials saying “oooops! Looks like we were wrong. Sorry!”
I just can’t see it.

Syria also isn’t like the USSR in its last days - there is food on the table and while life is very difficult for a lot of people there isn’t any widespread destitution. Plus Syria put up with and survived much harsher conditions - such as during the 73 war where people went without food for days. Or even during Hafez Al-Assad’s reign where people used to go to Lebanon to get hold of staples such a bananas and tissues.
Although its infrastructure is at breaking point as indicated by the posters urging birth-control in a country the size of France but with a population of 18 million.

This whole thing seems like maneuvering, maybe so he can say (like his dad did in the 90’s) “Look, I tried, I’m not inflexible” - and then introduces crackdowns.

Though it would be nice if I was wrong. Alas sadly cynicism always tends to be correct when dealing with the ME.

“Paul Moloney

You can’t really compare a region captured 40 years ago to one settled 400 hundred years.”

I understand that the Golan was only awarded to (French) Syria by (British) Palestinian Mandate, upon the initial partition in 1921. So the Syrians only formally ‘owned’ it for 46 years, not 400. However, Syria only attained independence in 1946, so they only actually had control of it for 21 years, whereas the Israels have had it for 41 years, almost twice as long.

a country the size of France

Is each and every country in the Middle East, the same size as France? Is there a reason for this?

Sounds like a reasonable plan - if there were good will on the Syrian side, which I doubt.

Paul, the Jewish link is sonewhat older than 40 years. Plus, are you advocating the return of evacuated farmland in Fermanagh or Armagh to Prodestants who left a lot less than 40 years ago?

It sounds as nice as that Quaker painting, Davidg

Paul, the Jewish link is sonewhat older than 40 years. Plus, are you advocating the return of evacuated farmland in Fermanagh or Armagh to Prodestants who left a lot less than 40 years ago?

“You can’t really compare a region captured 40 years ago to one settled 400 hundred years”

Anybody who knows the Golan, knows Gamla. Ignorant.

I can’t find in the draft any mention to how many years the arrangement will give the Druze to start packing and go away from the Golan.
Anybody can instruct me?

Or only Jewish towns make the landscape of the “coexistence” park ugly?

This is garbage.

The trans-frontier peace park theme is really great, . Hope it can work here, at least at some stage.

There are 2 in SA - the Kalahari Transfrontier Park linking Botswana and SA and the Greater Limpopo, which has expanded the size of the Kruger park - already the size of Wales - by another 60% into Mosambique.

It’s due to incorporate parts of Gonarhezuzu in Zim too, when the political situation allows.

This is garbage.

Indeed. An no doubt naive pollyannas like S.O. Muffin will be lapping it up. Mind you, people like S.O. Muffin, always willing to appease their persecutors, would have been lapping up compliments from Nazi guards herding them into the gas chambers…

Someone do a dress-down Friday thread.

any long-term peace with Syria depends on a deal over the Golan

so if people want a continuous state of low level warfare for the next hundred years with Syria then they will oppose all and any deal over the Golan

however, should reality play a part in people’s deliberations on this matter then I’m sure that they would appreciate that some form of deal has to be made, eventually

that’s a choice, continued conflict with Syria or not

OT, Dress Down.

Martha Stewart banned from UK.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/787966/exclusive-martha-stewart-banned-from-britain-her-loss-or-ours.thtml

The problem as always is that both sides have a history of sneak attacks. But aside from that Israel has done better when attacked like that than the Arab world so they could give up the Golan Heights.

Is there anywhere in Syria that’s run anything like this, never mind looking at taking on the Golan? Is there anywhere where their “influence” on Lebanon has been exercised in this way? Ummmm, yeah….. It does sound like the very touching wishful thinking of those of Israel’s diplomatic corps who were installed in the days of the best of the Oslo Peace process. Maybe they have in mind inviting Sheikh Nasrallah and Khaled Meshaal, to say nothing of Assad’s bestest friend President Ahmedinejad to the opening ceremony?

I have a better idea. Israel will sign a peace treaty with the whole Arab world with which she is still at war.
We will build a coexistence park comprising Lebanon, Iraq and Syria.
The Arabs living there will be evacuated to the Arabian peninsulae.
Everybody will be happy.
Coexistence!

Alon Liel is a fool and is finished. The corrupt Olmert-led clique will soon be gone. The Golan is nice, is ours, was ours, and we’re keeping it.

Incidentally, for the wine-lovers among you, may I recommend the Gamla Cabernet Sauvignon? Just tremendous stuff, and a reason in itself to tell the Baathist dictatorship to go fuck itself.

Does Morgoth have any idea what a pollyanna is?

Lets replace Syria for Argentina. Israel for Great Britain. And the Golan for the Islas Malvinas.
What about such a nice agreement?

Does that mean I have to move to Israel, Fabian? Want to swap houses?

Pangloss, I don’t live in the Golan, but you could find a house in London, right? I mean, I don’t expect the Israelis in the Golan to be evacuated to the UK, so why would you go to live in Israel?

The more I read into it the more this “peace park” seems a non-starter. It seems odd that a peace deal with Israel has to include a deal on the Golan (which obviously it does) yet Syria and Turkey normalized relationships without any demands to hand over Hatay province (as it was known in Syria as Alexanderuna).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province#Turkish-Syrian_dispute_over_the_Hatay_Province

Then again the normalization of relations between Syria and Turkey happened after Turkey threatened to invade Syria unless it handed over the PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan (the ‘c’ is pronounced ‘j’)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281302.stm

no compromises, no finding common ground, no talks. “Just hand him over or we invade. Oh and Hatay is ours, OK?”

And Syria retreated very quickly.

So why is it making such a noise over Golan when it surrendered any claims over Hatay without a fus?

edit: typo - fuss

except the population is Syrian, classic imperialism

Will remain a park until the Jewish/Zionist illegal habitants of Palestine fill the park will illegal cluster bombs, same bombs which have the USA flag across them

Morgoth - Mind you, people like S.O. Muffin, always willing to appease their persecutors, would have been lapping up compliments from Nazi guards herding them into the gas chambers…

As Muffin is one of the more reasonable and thoughtful posters on I/P on this site; I would have expected Morgoth the Ethnic Cleanser to have had a go at him. However, I’m quite surprised that nobody has pulled him up on his tasteless and offensive reference to the Holocaust.

One would have thought that an Irishman using a Holocaust comparison to insult a Jew would fall outside the bounds of decent discourse.

Godeosic, what’s the point?

One of the cafes on my street is run by a family from Hatay. Is this going to be the day Flanker learns about the patchwork of ethnic and language groups around there?

(Surely Ocalan was arrested in Kenya and flown to Turkey, where he started bleating about his Turkish mam?

pangloss
20 June 2008, 4:03 pm

Does that mean I have to move to Israel, Fabian? Want to swap houses?
Fabian from Israel
20 June 2008, 4:05 pm

Pangloss, I don’t live in the Golan, but you could find a house in London, right? I mean, I don’t expect the Israelis in the Golan to be evacuated to the UK, so why would you go to live in Israel?

And yet another attempt at humour fails.
Sigh

One would have thought that an Irishman using a Holocaust comparison to insult a Jew would fall outside the bounds of decent discourse.

S.O. Muffin has called repeatedly for courses of action which would leave the Jewish people defenceless and at the mercy of their enemies, all of whom have shown no hesitation in indulging in slaughter.

You would think, given the history of persecution that Jews have went though, and that now, for the first time in history, they have a place to call their own and don’t rely on the pernicious and fickle alleged-good will of their persecutors, that S.O. Muffin would support said Jewish homeland.

The comparison is not one I lightly made, but it reflects the gravity of the situation, and the completely adverse effect that would have on Israel, and indeed, Jews worldwide, if they were to take the S.O. Muffin line and abase themselves at the feet of the same ideologies that produced and nutured the Holocaust.

So my comparison is quite accurate. In short, anyone who supports this ludricrous proposal is a traitor to both the Jewish people and to Israel. In the 1940s, he/she would be a collaborator with the Nazis.

The Golan Heights must remain wholly a part of Israel, full stop.

Muffin lost far more rellies to A. Hitler than your town would have to the INLA and IRA.

Then why is he now advocating a course of action that would make him lose MORE relatives to the new Hitlers?

To recap: why are the proponents of this idea advocating national suicide for Israel?

That’s right, Jews who don’t think the way you decree are no better than Nazi appeasers. I mean, fuck off.

Over 2000 years of anti-semitism has shown that I am correct, ‘Cunt’. The only place on Earth where Jews will be safe is in a strong, undefeated Israel willing to defend itself and its people.

well I tend to agree with you - but isnt that guy youre talking about a Jew who left Israel? - so you should hardly be surprised if he feels differently.

S.O. Muffin has called repeatedly for courses of action which would leave the Jewish people defenceless and at the mercy of their enemies, all of whom have shown no hesitation in indulging in slaughter.

Any evidence for this ludicrous assertion?

You would think, given the history of persecution that Jews have went though, and that now, for the first time in history, they have a place to call their own

Shurely shome mistake? I seem to remember learning about ancient kings of Israel such as David and Solomon and something about a Temple in Jerusalem.

The comparison is not one I lightly made, but it reflects the gravity of the situation, and the completely adverse effect that would have on Israel, and indeed, Jews worldwide, if they were to take the S.O. Muffin line and abase themselves at the feet of the same ideologies that produced and nutured the Holocaust. So my comparison is quite accurate

Again with the trivialisation of the Holocaust. I am at a loss to understand how an Israel armed with nuclear weapons versus a bunch of Mediaevalists toting home made rockets is in some way comparable to the Holocaust. Especially when the Israelis have the unstinting support of the world’s only superpower.

The Golan Heights must remain wholly a part of Israel, full stop.

The annexation of the Golan Heights is not internationally recognized and United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 considers the area part of the Israeli occupied territories. They might remain under Israeli occupation, but no other nation considers them part of Israel, wholly or not.

Where’s one of those pinpoint units Muffin likes so much when we need them?

They might remain under Israeli occupation, but no other nation considers them part of Israel, wholly or not.

Is Israel went by what “other nations” wanted, they’d be no Jews, alas.

I’m sure you’d find another Sims people to save from sebuku.

Muffin’s lost more mates and lesser comrades in combat and daily life than your town has to the INLA and IRA.

I agree with Morgoth, Israel has too high a value to Jews ( even if many of them dont realise it ), to allow its existence to be chipped away bit by bit for reasons which owe more to the naivity of well meaning jews, many of who live abroad.

As Mark Steyn wrote Anti Semitism didnt get to be the longest hatred without being adaptable.

Muffin’s lost more mates and lesser comrades in combat and daily life than your town has to the INLA and IRA.

Which is totally irrelevant to the point at hand.

Sacrificing the Golan heights will, as #1 points out, not change a single thing other than placing Syrian artillery even closer to Jerusalem.

I must have missed the bit when, regardless of the rights and wrongs of this, militarisation of Golan was on the cards, or anyone would seriously expect Israel to sit on her hands if it started. Nuclear reactors, anyone?

Thank Christ for DaveM. If not, you and Seymour would make me think Ulster Prods are maniacs.

or anyone would seriously expect Israel to sit on her hands if it started.

Frankly, yes. Lets face it, to most of the planet, the only good Jew is a dead or suffering one. And its been like that for millenia.

sigh, Morgoth reminds me of the TheIrie, smart but intemperate, frothing at the mouth and attacking decent Israelis, making ludicrous comparisons and sounding more and more like Dr Paisley on speed with each passing day

his comments concerning Muffin are beyond the pale and anywhere else they would probably ban him for a few months whilst he went into rehab

sadly I think David T’s too liberal for that

his comments concerning Muffin are beyond the pale

Pointing out that the positions that Modernity and the likes of him hold would lead inevitably lead to the destruction of Israel and the persecution of Jews around the world is beyond the pale?

Your definition of the Hinterlands of Dublin are fucked up, Modernity.

Whoops, “that Muffin and…”

Actually, given your posts above, you’re another one of the Chamberlain brigade…

It is your anti-Semitism that is beyond the pale Morgoth.

Examples from the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism included in the Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism are in bold.

Morgoth 1:43 pm today
…Mind you, people like S.O. Muffin, always willing to appease their persecutors, would have been lapping up compliments from Nazi guards herding them into the gas chambers…

Morgoth, 4:50 pm today
… a traitor to both the Jewish people and to Israel. In the 1940s, he/she would be a collaborator with the Nazis.

I’d say those remarks were bothmaking mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews AND denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination since Muffin should be able to call for dialogue without being branded a Nazi collaborator and traitor.

Morgoth, 3pm today
History has shown us the utter evil of monotheism, in all forms. And the sooner it is purged from this planet the better.

As Judaism is one of the world’s oldest montheistic religions, I’d say that fell into the category ofcalling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

David Rosenberg was right when he said;

“Ironically, those who claim that the Jewish right to self-determination is under attack simultaneously deplore individual Jewish self-determination.”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/06/09/jewish-self-determination/

You, Morgoth, are an anti-Semite.

I have to say that I too found Morgoth’s words a trivialization of the Holocaust. The situation is not comparable, Morgoth.
I am against the ceding of the Golan, but that doesn’t mean I consider SO Muffin as a “traitor” to the Jewish people.
You have to learn to be more nuanced.
Best
Fabian

But Geodesic, 20 June 2008, 7:03 pm your last point is absurd. You are comparing papas with manzanas (potatoes with apples).

You have to learn to be more nuanced.

When confronted with the oldest hatred in the world, Fabian, can we afford to be “nuanced”? Nuance is for reasoned political debate. Anti-semitism isn’t reasoned.

You, Morgoth, are an anti-Semite.

I thought I’d heard it all.

Next I’ll be called a “decent”.

oh wait…

Unlike Morgoth, muffin has actually laid his life on the line in wars to defend Israel, in which lost close friends.

I remember my relief when Morgoth bid adieu to these comments boxes a few months ago in what I (over-optimistically) took to be a decisive and final break. I’m not sure what drew him back, but whatever it was, I wish it hadn’t happened.

Unlike Morgoth, muffin has actually laid his life on the line in wars to defend Israel, in which lost close friends.

Why Gene, I didn’t know you were such a Heinleinologist.

I’m not sure what drew him back, but whatever it was,I wish it hadn’t happened.

Its because you guys are such fun.

And the fact, that if everyone thought like you Gene, the world would be a much more boring place.

Morgoth: SO Muffin is not an antisemite.

Morgoth: SO Muffin is not an antisemite.

I didn’t call him one. “Uncle Tom”ish tendancies might be a better description. Seeking to make accommodation with people who cannot be accommodated with, and grasping at ludicrious straws. Such as, I recall, the current Hudna in Gaza.

Dead Jew are Good Jews to Morgoth because he can decree himself the only one who could have saved them.

I refer MNACBIANM to my 5:09 pm post above.

I thought Modernity was talking about Poland.

Yeah, Morgie! You’re immune from accusations of antisemitism because… you say so! Whom does this remind me of?

Next, MNACBIANM will be accusing Brownie of hating the Labour Party….

Like Peace Island between Jordan and Israel that was the site of a terror attack by a moonlighting Jordanian Border Policeman in the 90s?

Eurosabra: Wasn’t that where the terrorist was supposedly offended by the scantly clad Israeli women?

Note: the Golan Heights Peace Park sounds like a great idea as long as all the tourists can go there armed in full combat gear!

The Golan Heights Peace Park sounds about as likely to happen as having the Miss Universe Beauty Contest in Vietnam!

A “Peace” Park on the Golan Heights.? MWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“Fabian from Israel
20 June 2008, 3:34 pm

Lets replace Syria for Argentina. Israel for Great Britain. And the Golan for the Islas Malvinas.
What about such a nice agreement?”

Yes, let’s:-

1. Argentina took the Malvinas off us. So Argentina has to stand for Israel not the UK doesn’t it?

2. British people have virtually no attachment to the Falklands apart from the fact that British people were being trampled all over by a military junta. Prior to that the UK government was inching towards some sort of settlement.

3. Personally I have no problem with reaching an agreement with Argentina. The history over the Falklands/Malvinas is far more complicated than the Golan Heights. I think with the Falklands a codominium arrangement is the way forward with Argentina having a
lead position in the West Falklands and the UK retaining its sway over the east. However, as with Syria, Argentina would have to give a serious demonstration of peaceful intent before we ventured down that road.

Field: 1, no it didn’t. You took the Malvinas from Argentina.

2. I don’t know. It didn’t look like and it doesn’t look like.

3. the point of the comparison was that in the Golan proposal, Jews must be evacuated. I made the comparison for people in this blog to think whether they would accept a Malvinas accord in which the Kelpers/English are all evacuated.

Best.
Fabian

Settlers must be evacuated, big difference, just because you steal a car does not mean taking that car away from you is stealing it back.

David All: Yes, the standards for “tznius” among Orthodox Jewish schoolgirls are not sufficient according to Islam. What was really disturbing was the public support for the killer at the trial, as detailed in Fouad Ajami’s _The Dream Palace of the Arabs_. Makes it clear that the peace with Jordan will last only as long as the power of the Hashemite family running Palestinian Jordan.

David All: Yes, the standards for “tznius” among Orthodox Jewish schoolgirls are not sufficient according to Islam. What was really disturbing was the public support for the killer at the trial, as detailed in Fouad Ajami’s _The Dream Palace of the Arabs_. Makes it clear that the peace with Jordan will last only as long as the power of the Hashemite family running Palestinian Jordan.

Thanks, Eurosabra. I did not remember it was Orthodox Jewish schoolgirls who were the victims of that terrorist attack.