Harry’s Place

I happen to think that the BNP are “Useful Idiots” in the current political climate. I think they can force issues of discussion about cultural integration and perhaps an antidote to Islamist Extremism.

Given Griffin’s statements on Islam (”Wicked and Vicious Faith”) then I regard them as a useful way of stirring debate.

I believe Griffin says he has studied The Koran. He has especially memorised the bits about non-believers etc. I’d like to see him in open debate with MCB, MPAC UK and the likes.

Let me tell you straight. I find the BNP odious and racist. I would NOT vote for, join or support the BNP - except as political leverage. We all have our desired political ideas. I think BNP can perform a useful role in sorting out our multi-cultural hell. They may make it worse at first so we can make it better.

And let me state that I welcome religious freedom and the ability to follow your traditions and cultures in a way that impinges on no-one else. I would welcome all opportunities to join and share someone else’s culture, traditions and festivals - but we should never legislate to accommodate or make mandatory elements that are counter to our Judaeo-Christian ethics and society.

I kinda tripped over your first sentence there, Neil. :)

Ha ha, quite. Now fixed.

Harriet Harman has just given the BNP 1000’s more votes.

Very interesting and accurate piece. I was pleased that it was not a rant against all of the right but clearly focused on the BNP. One of the best pieces I have seen on the subject.

I think The Daily Mail and Express’s reporting of it has done that

The BNP is a racist party

Probably still is under the skin, but it has quite skilfully made a transition to a “pro-British culture” party with strong anti-Islam tendencies. Like it of not, this has traction. You cannot defeat the BNP by simply calling them racist, you have to find out why people vote for them and address their concerns. Such voters will not admit to being racist (even if they are), but don’t like alien cultures (and that 90% means Islam), and don’t like immigrants taking their jobs. The BNP is indeed an alienation party.

As for voting for them, I agree with Maven. I would vote for them only to scare an incumbent who wasn’t listening, and not if the BNP man had a chance of getting in. There are dangers here, because that is that the Germans did in 1933. Given a recession, the BNP vote would increase.

As for being racist, there is far too much hypocritical humbug talked on this issue. It seems that being anti-Semitic (especially on Radio 4) is fine with far too many of the elite, while being anti- brown people is not. Why is an organisation such as the Black Police Officers Association permitted to exist? What would happen if a white officer tried to join? In Broon’s recent proposals for “positive discrimination” (a fundamentally racist sentiment against whites), would Jews count as “white” or “brown”, and what would Arabs be? Is Obama “black” (after his absent father) or “white” (after his mother)? How much “black” do you need to be legally “black”? This really is a can or worms.

*Goes cannard hunting*

At present employers are permitted to encourage applications from certain groups. One form this can take, is advertising in specific places, the Nation, say, to encourage black recruits, or in magazines read by women, or in community centres, newsletters, etc. that is intensely discriminatory, because white males are unlikely to see the ads. (though they can still apply, if they hear about it). The change that’s coming is if there is a tie, a tie mark you, and the candidates are equally as good, then such schemes may be taken into account rather than, as I was told in my EO training, tossing a coin. So an employer would still have to show that in the interview and on paper there was no way of establishing which was the better candidate.

p.s. just to add, in my workoplace men are underrepresented, so this would technically permit us to favour men over women, if that were the policy…

V. interesting piece, with sound conclusions.

I distance myself from the positions expressed by both Maven and Alcuin (whose views don’t seem to be identical, but both of which seem to be dangerous, to varying degrees): i don’t think contemporary Britain constitutes “a multi-cultural hell”, and I don’t think that engaging someone like Griffin in a debate with Islamists would help matters in any way at all, any more than his loathsome far-right equivalents in places like Denmark, Netherlands or Italy help matters.

Dealing with matters on the ground, appreciating and seeking to resolve local concerns (WITHOUT giving into the BNP’s xenophobic agenda), and not engaging in facile posturing (e.g. of the “Don’t vote Nazi” kind) are the key elements.

Reversing preposterous “antidiscrimination” and “equal opportunities” (which only serve to benefit the litigious and, ultimately, the more parasitic end of the legal profession) measures such as those that the Odious Harman is currently pushing through might also help a bit.

But the point is: you have to reach out to the excluded and alienated (ie those who are currently voting BNP), not demonise them en masse

Alciun wrote:

“As for voting for them, I agree with Maven. I would vote for them only to scare an incumbent who wasn’t listening, and not if the BNP man had a chance of getting in”

as you are a perspective BNO voter (remember that you said that more than once), then it’s no surprise that you try to sanitise the BNP’s image, is it?

however, anyone else capable of looking up the output from the BNP, would conclude that they are a racist party, but they’ve learnt to disguise that much of that racism, to put smart suit on it as it were

nevertheless we shouldn’t be fooled by such rather transparent tricks or the gullible right-wing idiots that advance such propaganda

I hope this http://www.boardofdeputies.org.uk/racismnotkosher.php may dissuade you otherwise?

From direct experience, I know that wherever the BNP has flourished, racial violence has arisen. The more I have seen this, the more I am convinced that the BNP must be no-platformed because it eases the door open for violent racism and the tolerance of racial hatred. I don’t believe that the BNP has succeeded where I live because of a sense of white working-class alienation. The area is overwhelmingly white: 97-98% according to the 2001 census. It has excellent public amenities, unemployment is below the national average, people have bought their 1950s council houses, with their big gardens and large open spaces. The reason why people vote BNP is because they are racist and agree with that party’s fascist propaganda. In fact, there is a local consensus that goes well beyond the BNP vote: non-white minorities need to contained both in number and in influence or else the town “will become like Tower Hamlets”. The BNP are the hard racists, but there are plenty of soft racists in the establishment who buy into this bullshit.

I think that anti-sectarianism will be a big idea in the coming decade. That will allow consistent opposition to all identity politics, including the BNP.

That’s what centrist politics will be against, I think. How strong and broad that centreground will be depends on what it is for.

Britain is indeed a multicultural-hell, but I personally would NEVER vote for the BNP. I’d rather stay at home than vote for them, so I do disagree with the normally sane Maven and Alcuin on this.

I’m quite surprised about this post — I kind of see all you Harry’s Place gang of warmongering cheerleaders of murder joining the BNP in the next few years. What a pleasent surprise, you wily gang of Decent Murderers you.

“Britain is indeed a multicultural-hell”

Why do you say that?

“Britain is indeed a multicultural-hell”

Oh go on, don’t be so melodramatic and posturing, just vote for them Morgoth, how is it going to harm the hell that Britain is, think of how it will alleviate some of spunk in your balls to spit back at the satanic people of mult-culture that stalk the Hell of Britain, see it as your taking part in a bukkake party on the face of the Devil himself who is the proprietor of culti-multi Hell that is Britain. You know you want to, you naughty boy.

i don’t think contemporary Britain constitutes “a multi-cultural hell”, and I don’t think that engaging someone like Griffin in a debate with Islamists would help matters in any way at all, any more than his loathsome far-right equivalents in places like Denmark, Netherlands

Why do you think that the normally liberal countries of Denmark and Holland have succumbed to right-wing rhetoric and politicians pushing back against Islamism? One reason is that the percentage of Muslims and Islamists is higher in Denmark & Holland than in the UK. I believe that Sweden is going the same way.

I understand why the Board of Deputies would be worried about the BNP and the rise of Antisemitism BUT the rise is almost exclusively due to Islamists not BNP members.

Why didn’t the Board of Deputies publish “Why we must crack down on Islamism” - because THAT is the main driver for Antisemitism. These sort of comments have been expressed many times by the Parliamentary Committe that meets to combat Antisemitism and a paper produced by Ian Duncan Smith over a year ago. Its also reflected in the EU document on European Antisemitism.

I see no danger at all in the BNP getting a little bit of success because their success will ring the alarm bells. Just like when Le Pen got a high vote a few years ago so the anti-racists turned out to make sure Le Pen was defeated.

I think it would be a wonderful message to the Government if the BNP won a seat in Bradford or East London. That would set the alarms ringing and bring us back a long way from the brink.

The BNP will never rise like the Nazis but a there may be a few blooms.

“I believe Griffin says he has studied The Koran.”
What seminary did he attend? Al-Azhar or Najaf?

“I would NOT vote for, join or support the BNP - except as political leverage.”
Would you vote for a Communist grouplet like Respect-SWP if it meant political leverage? Or are race-baiting fascists more your kind of protest vote?

“let me state that I welcome religious freedom and the ability to follow your traditions and cultures in a way that impinges on no-one else. I would welcome all opportunities to join and share someone else’s culture, traditions and festivals”
ie - you believe in multi-culturalism.

“we should never legislate to accommodate or make mandatory elements that are counter to our Judaeo-Christian ethics and society.”
We should never legislate to accommodate any religion, including Christianity. Shopping on Sundays, for example, should be a matter for individual conscience and schools should be banned from discriminating on the grounds of religion in their supplementary applications.

“Given a recession, the BNP vote would increase.”
Did the BNP/NF vote increase in the 1991-92 recession? It seems the BNP vote increased during a period of GDP growth, so your claim that the BNP vote follows macroeconomic trends is bullshit. The reason why most people vote BNP is because they are racist.

“Why didn’t the Board of Deputies publish “Why we must crack down on Islamism” - because THAT is the main driver for Antisemitism.”

I would like to know the ethnic and religious backgrounds of those involved in anti-semitic attacks in the UK. I would bet that the vast majority are perpetrated by white non-Muslims. And I would also bet that there are very very few attacks on Muslims by Jews.

“I think it would be a wonderful message to the Government if the BNP won a seat in Bradford or East London. That would set the alarms ringing and bring us back a long way from the brink.”

The brink of what? Media lunacy about asylum seekers raping kittens?

Britain is indeed a multicultural-hell”

Dan, maybe I should have said “is becoming”. We debated the last year that multi-culturalism doesn’t work. Some of us believe it doesn’t.

Multi-Culturalism suggest the right to maintain your culture as a parallel system. Shariah Law would be a logical extension to a parallel culture.

There is ONE culture in the UK and that is so-called “Britishness”. Britishness incorporates what it is prepared to accept as a modification to historical ways of behaviour. If we first believe in Road Beef and Yorkshire pudding but evolve to Chicken Balti, bagels, chiabata, spaghetti carbonara and Crispy Duck then we do so because it appeals to us and hasn’t been forced on us. Its a market force. Open a restaurant, offer food to buy and the British People either buy or it dies.

Multi-culturalism suggests that someone who does not accept this Britishness can suddenly berate us for something that they find offensive towards their religion and culture. No! This is us and we like it like this. Get yourself in the slow-lane integration of ideas pot and it will either sink or swim.

Ruth Kelly last year gave a major speech on multi-culturalism (during which she criticised MCB). She effectively said “This is the way we are and you had better accept it”. She said that being British meant you saw yourself as part of Europe too. If Europe acknowledges The Holocaust then it is anti-culture and anti-integration to avoid attending and using it as a political lever. SHe said that in Britain we have the free speech to criticise ideas and criticising religion was one of those freedoms, so you had better get used to it.

A little BNP might do us some good and like any ‘disease’ we will build up anti-bodies and become immune.

so I do disagree with the normally sane Maven and Alcuin on this. I’m astounded at that accolade. Thanks.

“There is ONE culture in the UK and that is so-called “Britishness”. Britishness incorporates what it is prepared to accept as a modification to historical ways of behaviour.”

Please define Britishness. Perhaps a 10-point guide to British behaviour. As soon as someone attempts to define “Britishness”, the concept falls apart and those deemed “un-British” are left bemused. Usually such definitions are ideologically loaded in order to impose some form of conformity.

“SHe said that in Britain we have the free speech to criticise ideas and criticising religion was one of those freedoms, so you had better get used to it.”

She doesn’t seem to like it when people question her membership of a shadowy ultra-Catholic sect and whether this means her loyalties are divided.

“A little BNP might do us some good and like any ‘disease’ we will build up anti-bodies and become immune.”

What crap. We have a “little BNP” where I live and with it has come a lot of hatred and even some violence. What do you say I should do? Hoist a fucking flag in the garden?

Would you vote for a Communist grouplet like Respect-SWP if it meant political leverage? Or are race-baiting fascists more your kind of protest vote

Are you asking me to choose between two groups of “Race-Baiting fascists?”

If I HAD to choose then it would be BNP because they don’t like the ‘ace-baiting fascists of SWP-Respect persuasion’ either.

Anyway, BNP are cruder and would get a reaction faster. Let’s be clear, I don’t for one moment think that a BNP member of Parliament is going to be able to suddenly order that Nazis can roam the streets and beat up brown people.

. I would welcome all opportunities to join and share someone else’s culture, traditions and festivals”
ie - you believe in multi-culturalism.

No, my point is that you should keep your culture and religion to yourself and offer any participation like any other product open to market forces. Hence, Indian food made itself available as something directly culturally applicable to Asians and the Brits adopted it. That ISN’T multi-culturalism.

Jews didn’t ask for multi-culturalism and yet we all love bagels, salt beef and latkes. Jews are well-established in British society and great contributors to that society without ever seeking to alter it in any way. To me that is the perfection of Britain with its tolerances of all faiths and races who don’t try and ram their requirements down our throats.

After reading Paul’s comment, I’m beginning to think I’m the only sane one here.

Maven has accuratrely diagnosed the problems with multiculturalism. I do disagree fervently with his remedy though. The BNP aren’t in it for British people (of whatever skin pigment or ancestry) - the BNP are in it for the BNP, and I can guarantee you, if they ever came to power, they’d kill more pink people than darker-than-pink people.

The solution to the current crisis is for people to start growing some balls and making it quite clear that third-world medievalist savagery of all kinds (and especially one kind in particular) is simply not welcome here.

What crap. We have a “little BNP” where I live and with it has come a lot of hatred and even some violence.

Why? Is it at all possible you had hatred and violence which is why the BNP got a vote.

I just can’t see a correlation between a BNP councillor and extra violence. They don’t send BNP stormtroopers out at night to break windoiws - do they?

“Jews didn’t ask for multi-culturalism and yet we all love bagels, salt beef and latkes. Jews are well-established in British society and great contributors to that society without ever seeking to alter it in any way.”

How ironic. For a long time, persecuting the Jews was a very British tradition.

I’m not sure the central message (as I read it that the “white working-class” are lost in a postmodern world and are looking for certainties in the form of the BNP) is true, but I’m a lifelong multi-culti inner-city dweller so don’t have the same insights as those from the areas referred too. However, I think one change is needed and it may sound patronising: I think that when confronted by people for whom you think that life has become meaningless and that they therefore may want to vote BNP (I realise that if what Lowles says is true most people commenting here are unlikely to meet such people as they are being almost “insulated” from them by design) but should you meet such a character then screaming “racist” at them the first time they make reference to Somalis/Muslims/West Indians in a way which you find suspicious is only adding to the problem, and you have a responsibility to society to engage with them (I don’t mean banging your head against the “brick-wall” of a totally convinced BNP skinhead I mean just arguing gently with someone who thinks there are too many “foreigners” and that they don’t all put the age and disabilities of others over aesthetic concerns (to give an example I was arguing with one Lady about last week.)

p.s. just to add, in my workoplace men are underrepresented, so this would technically permit us to favour men over women, if that were the policy…

In the one position I have where I have any country-wide responsibility I don’t kid myself in the slightest I would have got the senior job (amongst 4 females and a female big boss) were I not the only semi-skilled and semi-experienced male amongst a workforce which is 80% female. So it works both ways.

The BNP aren’t in it for British people (of whatever skin pigment or ancestry) - the BNP are in it for the BNP, and I can guarantee you, if they ever came to power, they’d kill more pink people than darker-than-pink people.

Morgoth, the moment the BNP start to get more than one seat then I will be on the protest line against them. I see BNP as a medicine we need to cure what I perceive ails us. BNP vote tells Conservatives & Labour (Lib Dems ignored!) that there is something happening to us that we don’t like and that THEY need to give us policies that say “No! We like it the way it is and we are not going to make special provisions for religious pressure groups (from whom terrorists emanate)”. Yes, its Islamisation that I fear will destroy us.

“Why? Is it at all possible you had hatred and violence which is why the BNP got a vote.”

It didn’t exist before the BNP came to town.

“I just can’t see a correlation between a BNP councillor and extra violence.”

The failure to mount any response to the BNP and combat its pernicious influence locally allowed it to gain wider acceptance. In doing so, racism is now acceptable. The upshot of racial hatred is racial violence. Those perpetrating the violence may or may not be BNP members, but the BNP has given them a rationale and a target for violent hatred. Make no mistake, violence always follows in the wake of BNP success.

“third-world medievalist savagery of all kinds (and especially one kind in particular) is simply not welcome here.”

This wins the prize for the most racist comment on this thread. Anyone fancy beating this little Nazi in racist rhetoric? Come on, Maven, you can do better.

Maven wrote:

“I see no danger at all in the BNP getting a little bit of success because their success will ring the alarm bells. Just like when Le Pen got a high vote a few years ago so the anti-racists turned out to make sure Le Pen was defeated.

I think it would be a wonderful message to the Government if the BNP won a seat in Bradford or East London. That would set the alarms ringing and bring us back a long way from the brink.”

So there you have it, those arguing that the BNP isn’t as bad as it is painted would either vote for it or welcome it getting an MP?

you couldn’t make up this idiocy?

of course what they can’t admit (or don’t know) is that with the rise of the BNP comes increased racial violence

so really what (unconsciously) they are arguing for is increased racial violence and tension, because that would be the result of the BNP gaining political successes

I would ask Maven and others to re-think their views, before it is too late, or to openly state if they welcome increased racial violence?

which is it?

How ironic. For a long time, persecuting the Jews was a very British tradition.

When and for how long?

If we relate it to modern times then the Jews of East London and other major town ghettos did suffer persecution. But when did that largely change? When they learnt to integrate rather than demand changes in society to accommodate them. Yes, they looked different. Mostly like the Hassidic Jews still look. But they progressed from those environments and in many case excelled to become part of the British scene.

There willl always be White Antisemitism against Jews but it is Islamist Antisemitism as well now.

I will tell you a fact that might astound you. You can confirm this with the Jewish Museum that deals with Jews in the British Forces..

At the start of the First World War a Rabbi in the East End sent a circular in Yiddish and English imploring fellow Jews to join the army and fight for their King and adopted country. I find that amazing because all the while they were also persecuted. Can you imagine that today from other religious minorities of immigrant stock?

“BNP vote tells Conservatives & Labour …”
A BNP vote does tell anyone anything other than the voter is favouring a neo-Nazi party. What does it tell them? That the Holocaust didn’t happen? That black people should be “repatriated”? That homosexuality should be banned? That hanging and flogging should be returned as punishments?

Yes, its Islamisation that I fear will destroy us.

True, but I don’t accept that choosing the Scylla of totalitarian collectivist nuts (the BNP) will save us from the Charybdis of totalitarian collectivist nuts (Islam).

After reading Paul’s comment, I’m beginning to think I’m the only sane one here.

Ironically, thinking you’re the only sane one in an insane society is a symptom of insanity. However, the notion that you are mad is probably one most HP readers share

I must admit I’m definitely getting a Franz Von Papen whiff about Maven’s advocacy of the BNP. He may (judging from his other posts, is) coming from a position of wholly good intentions, but voting for a bunch of totalitarian collectivist nuts isn’t a good idea, no matter what the circumstances.

However, the notion that you are mad is probably one most HP readers share

Oh apparently I’m just posessed by demons.

Remarkable comments

‘I believe Griffin says he has studied The Koran’ - I believe he was a third positionist in the eighties and was somewhat enamoured by Islamist anti-liberalism, a ideology ‘next door’ to ultra nationalism, indeed many a comrade of his is now a convert. He has merely realised that by making Islam the main source of decadence to threaten the mythic gemeinschaft and get a wider audience. It seems to have worked.

Will comment more when I have recovered from the shock of the arch-libertarian-fascist cross over

So there you have it, those arguing that the BNP isn’t as bad as it is painted would either vote for it or welcome it getting an MP?

which is it?

How do you prove BNP political success results in an increas in racist violence? Isn’t it that an increase in racial violence shows a disaffected population who see the BNP as their answer?

Isn’t it encumbent on the Government to make sure there ISN’T racial tension and other issues that might let the BNP in?

If the Government can’t heed the warning signs then a BNP member of Palrlaiment might just signal that this is serious. The BNP IS as bad as we think they are. They are racist and with more than a little thuggery around them.

I am only advocating their value as Useful idiots and nothing more. Racial tension has to be dealt with by the police and by the law. If we haven’t got enough police and laws then we are stuffed anyway.

What if there were an Islamists Terror atrocity? I think some of the country might burn. I think we demonstrated our tolerant British society when there wasn’t violence after 7/7. We aren’t like that.

“When and for how long?”
For most of British history - although Cromwell lifted the ban on Jews, a practicing Jew could not sit in parliament until the late 19th century.

“When they learnt to integrate rather than demand changes in society to accommodate them.”

Try drumming up a conversation with a Hasidic Jew and invite them over to dinner on a Saturday. There are members of the Jewish community that are as separatist as Islamic fundamentalists. If they want to keep themselves to themselves, then that’s fine by me. I see no need to force them to be like me.

“Can you imagine that today from other religious minorities of immigrant stock?”
I haven’t actually seen many people urge their sons and daughter to join the army and fight in Iraq, regardless of their origins.

I see no need to force them to be like me.

But you’re quite content to let them continue to mutilate their new-born babies though…

I am only advocating their value as Useful idiots and nothing more.

The road to the Nine Hells is paved with good intentions, Maven. Be very very careful…

I am completely aware of the dangers of voting BNP (as I alluded), but as a liberal commentator on Radio 4 recently said: “The BNP is a perfect protest vote”.

Dan: wherever the BNP has flourished, racial violence has arisen.

And what of Mosques? Action and reaction?

Perhaps if Britain had immigration policies like Denmark’s, we should not have a problem with the likes of the BNP.

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark ’s history, culture, and a Danish language test.

You must live in Denmark for 7 years before applying for citizenship. You must demonstrate an intent to work, and have a job waiting. If you wish to bring a spouse into Denmark, you must both be over 24 years of age, and you won’t find it so easy any more to move your friends and family to Denmark with you.

You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen. Although your children have a choice of some 30 Arabic culture and language schools in Denmark, they will be strongly encouraged to assimilate to Danish society in ways that past immigrants weren’t.

“It didn’t exist before the BNP came to town.”

There was no hatred and violence in Loughton before the BNP gained a few councillors? At all..?

I call bullshit on that.

“And what of Mosques? Action and reaction?”

There are no mosques in my town, but an increasing level of racial violence directed at people of all ethnicities but particularly black men. But even if there were mosques in the town, why should that be an excuse for harming those who attend them?

“There was no hatred and violence in Loughton before the BNP gained a few councillors? At all..?”

I can’t say at all, but certainly racism was not the problem it is now.

Graham: My response to racists is summed up by the song “Racist Friend” by the Specials: “So if you are a racist/Our friendship has got to end/And if your friends are racists don’t pretend to be my friend.”
Alienating and ostracising racists is the best way to ensure that racism returns to being a taboo.

Protest voting, i.e. lying seems to me to be the most perfectly futile way of pursuing politics, wouldn’t it be better to get involved in a political party nea your own politics, argue your case and build up political discussion to acheive your ends?

One thing yopu have to watch out for is “I’m not a racist but…” teh continuation is often “but ….I do think foreigners should be stewed alive in their own juices.” For example, my yank mate was in the barbers and someone went off on an immigration rant, but turned to him and specifically said “Oh, I don’t mean you, mate.” All this defence of British culture bullshit is, well, bullshit.

All this defence of British culture bullshit is, well, bullshit.

All of it?

People aren’t exactly falling over themselves to take up “World Socialism” now are they?

Maven wrote:

“How do you prove BNP political success results in an increas in racist violence? ”

possibly by looking at the history of the Far Right and where they succeed what happens?

as that ever occurred to you? do you think we’re dealing with year Zero here? (without any knowledge of history on this topic)

the New far right have been in Europe since 1945 and their activities are well documented, I would refer you to the Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism

read their reports, objectively and make up your mind:
http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/ai.html

again, see http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/ The Stephen Roth Institute

the Extreme Right thrives where there is racial tension, that’s what they want to produce, conflict and in the conflict they grow, but as they grow there will be more firebombings, attacks on individuals, houses, assaults in the street, etc and NO, the police can’t deal with it because they can’t be everywhere all of the time

so the way to stop it is not to encourage the Extreme Right to grow in the first place, you can’t put that particular genie back in the bottle once it is out

Alienating and ostracising racists is the best way to ensure that racism returns to being a taboo.

Doesn’t appear to be working though does it?

Morgoth,

well, what is this thing you call British culture? Other than the experience of living under the same state?

I have friends in Dagenham, and one of them actually voted BNP in the Mayoral elections. When I asked them why, they told me that they were feeling ever more helpless and alienated in their own community and that no one else seemed to be speaking up for whites like the BNP was. It’s this real sense of being utterly screwed over and ignored that drives support for the BNP.

But these people are not monsters. It is easy to just demonise a group of people and then disregard or spit on them - the BNP does this all the time after all, as do parts of the so-called radical left. But when’s the last time any Searchlighter or ANL-type actually knocked on these people’s doors and spoken to them, LISTENED to them?

I abhor the BNP and its fascist them-and-us, statist, thuggish nature. I’ve done my best to argue for a society that repudiates fear of outsiders and which recognises that both immigrants and natives are getting screwed over as cheap labour for those that won’t countenance paying just a little bit more to their builders, au pairs or to the girl at the Waitrose till. Or just going the whole hog and axing income tax for anyone on a low wage altogether. (Wouldn’t want that though, would we?)

But my attempts to argue for the unpopular is bloody hard to do in a run-down, neglected and at times rough place like Dagenham and Barking. A real cynic might even argue that the crappy management of immigration in the last decade was designed precisely to have divided communities at each other’s throats. There’s certainly no difference between Nick Griffin insinuating “wogs out!” and some Hoxton tosser sneering at the white proles and lumping them in with the Chavs. It’s all about pissing on those you know can’t fight back.

It’s all very well having leafleters outside Chadwell Heath Station, but who’s going to listen to my friend? Or the old man who told me that he could understand some of what the BNP was saying, but that he’d never vote for them because he knew what they were really about? That’s how you beat the BNP - just by listening for once.

“Doesn’t appear to be working though does it?”

There is more tolerance of their ideas, with the readers of popular newspapers fed a daily litany of “asylum seekers are coming over here to bomb your children and rape your women.” And this has been mainstreamed to some extent, assisted by the likes of Margaret Hodge.

Well said Sheepy.

There is more tolerance of their ideas, with the readers of popular newspapers fed a daily litany of “asylum seekers are coming over here to bomb your children and rape your women.”

Well can’t say I have noticed that (which Newspapers are these?) But who is saying their ideas should be tolerated? If someone is getting into crack or hanging around with the wrong people then where I come from you have a word with them. That the British middle-classes are spectacularly ill-equipped to do so is one major cause of the problem.

I don’t think either by the way that you can argue that Jews being unable to sit in the British parliament until the late 19th century was “persecution” without putting this into the context that neither could catholics, nonconformist Protestants or anybody other than a member of the Church of England.

well, what is this thing you call British culture?

Just because you don’t have any culture, Deathy, doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t.

A friend of mine campaigned for UKIP in Dagenham last year(where in 2004 UKIP received more votes than the BNP).
A lot of voters said we agree with you but we are voting BNP because neither of you can get in but they are a bigger protest.
I don’t think many people support the BNP and they will only get votes if we allow discrimination against whites and let muslims who beat up clergymen go free while whites who SAY racist things go away for 6 months………

Oh dear people might vote BNP as all the above happen.
Personally I think they are scum.

Morgoth,

I have human culture, ccheers. But what is this british culture you say you have? You seem to be struggling to describe it…

I have human culture, cheers

*guffaw*

No, what you have is a rod up your arse.

But what is this british culture you say you have?

Try googling “Culture of the United Kingdom”, or “Common Law”, Deathy, you might learn a thing or two.

Re: Napier’s famous saying:

“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours”

What Red Deathy and other multiculturalists are espousing is modern day inverse of this - that suttee is perfectly acceptable as its their culture.

Morgoth: If it is so easy to talk of Britishness, then it should be easy to draw up a 10-point checklist of what being British entails. Please do so.

The culture of the United Kingdom—British culture—refers to the patterns of human activity and symbolism associated with the British people and the United Kingdom. - things done by people who happened to be in the UK? So, that includes Islam then, as there are British people in the UK who as Muslim, Islam and Islamism are part of British Culture. Going quack and shaking an umbrella is British Culture, or Human culture, or European culture, or just something comeone once did. That “culture” is elastic, changeable and changing means that in essence it has no essence, end the British state and you end British culture and the selective invented tradition that surrounds it.

I’m not a multiculturalist.

Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few ranging from speaking English, respecting British Law (and the inspirations behind it such as the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights), supporting British customs and practises, such as equality of the sexes (which rules Islam out) all the way through to interfacing with the outside world through our history as a great trading nation, scepticism and hostility to authority and the overpowering state (for example, our attitude to Roderick Spode), freedom of speech, pragmatism, pride in our history in civlising the world, ending the slave trade and giving rise to great daughter civilisations (the US), our music, our literature, our language.

And that’s just from 30 seconds thinking about it.

I googled “Culture of the United Kingdom” and got Andy Burnham….

I don’t think you can call hanging people “British culture” Morgy, we didn’t invent it and we haven’t had one for 44 years.

I’d go more for Pooh sticks myself.

Graham: You can worry about reasoning with racists, while I worry about helping their victims, OK? Sorry if that is too middle class for you.

“they will only get votes if we allow discrimination against whites and let muslims who beat up clergymen go free while whites who SAY racist things go away for 6 months………”

Just how much of these perceptions are real? There’s also evidence - at least anecdotal - to suggest the police give black men a harder time than white men. Where I live, the BNP claimed the government had set up a group called “Africans for Essex”, in which they planned to fill scores of empty homes in the ward with African asylum seekers. An independent councillor (a former Labour PPC who quit the party) did some research into this and not only found that no such initiative existed, he discovered that there were only a handful of empty homes and all of them were privately owned and being renovated for re-sale.

When it comes to poverty, poor housing and social exclusion, then whites, blacks, Muslims and non-Muslims suffer the same problems. Rather than blaming each other and either voting for a Nazi party or joining a religious extremist group, they should unite and do something constructive about it.

“that’s just from 30 seconds thinking about it.”

Full of ideologically loaded claptrap about civilising savages and opposing Islam and wooly stuff about “supporting British customs and practises”, whatever that means (Morris Dancing and Music Hall?). Nope, I don’t fit into your version of Britishness - apart from challenging authority. I challenge any authority that forces me to define my cultural identity by the norms it sets down.

Graham: You can worry about reasoning with racists, while I worry about helping their victims, OK? Sorry if that is too middle class for you.

While I am “reasoning” with them they can’t be making any “victims” can they?

But this is silly. I wasn’t suggesting you reason with anybody who would be violent towards others as I clearly said. What I was suggesting is that you talk to the kind of people who are the subject of this article - those who may be tempted to vote BNP out of some weird need for belonging.

Just how much of these perceptions are real?

Quite a lot. Documented examples of councils telling people to remove Union Jacks from cars because they could “cause offense”.

Which begs the question: if, in the United Kingdom, the official flag of the United Kingdom is causing you offense, what the fuck are you doing here?

There’s also evidence - at least anecdotal - to suggest the police give black men a harder time than white men.

Whilst remembering the maxim that the plural of anecdote isn’t data, is it not true, for whatever reason (mainly sociological, I gather) that crime rates amongst young black people are higher than amongst other sections of the population?

So, by your definition, morgoth, I don’t possess British culture, and a large chunk of the Labour party too by the sounds of it (at various stages in its histiory) in fact, I suspect you’ve just defined your opinions, rather than a British culture…

I challenge any authority that forces me to define my cultural identity by the norms it sets down.

Now you’re just being bolshie for the sake of it.

“respecting British Law (and the inspirations behind it such as the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights)”

This is risible nonsense. If I go to Germany and abide by German laws, could I be considered German? And should all convicted criminals in the UK be stripped of their citizenship for failing to respect the law?

It is interesting though that Dan calls Equality of the Sexes “ideologically loaded claptrap”.

Deathy, you’re mixing up the current Fabian infestation of the Labour Party with the history of the Labour Perty.

Fuck me, what is this coming to when I’m defending the history of the Labour Party?

This is risible nonsense. If I go to Germany and abide by German laws, could I be considered German? And should all convicted criminals in the UK be stripped of their citizenship for failing to respect the law?

Germany operates on Civil Law, Dan. Its a whole different kettle of fish. And the rest of your post is just arguing against strawmen.

Morgoth,

Nope, Labour Anti-Imperialism has been around as long as the Labour party, for one thing - and I did say “chunks”…

“if, in the United Kingdom, the official flag of the United Kingdom is causing you offense, what the fuck are you doing here?”

Well, you might be Scottish or Welsh and find it offensive in some way. Should Scottish and Welsh nationalists be expelled?

“crime rates amongst young black people are higher than amongst other sections of the population?”

White people are over-represented in burglary statistics, I believe.

“Germany operates on Civil Law, Dan. Its a whole different kettle of fish.”

You missed the point. You said that respecting the law of the land was a requirement of Britishness. So, if I respect the laws of Germany while I am in Germany, would that make me more German than someone of German citizenship who did not respect German laws?

if, in the United Kingdom, the official flag of the United Kingdom is causing you offense, what the fuck are you doing here?

Didn’t the Scottish FA ask that the Cross of St. George be flown rather than the Union Jack (during or after the World Cup in 66)?

“Deathy, you’re mixing up the current Fabian infestation of the Labour Party with the history of the Labour Perty.”

Oh, Morgoth, you really should educate yourself about the history of this great land, the mother-fucker of democracies. The Fabians helped create the Labour party.

I never said Labour Anti-Imperialism was un-British, Deathy. It was perfectly possible to be “anti-imperialist” without being influenced by ludricrous notions of Marxian inequality.

Oh fuck off Dan. You know as well as I do that the Fabians have basically taken over the Labour Party since WW2.

Haven’t had time to respond to anything. My bottom line is that I will combat the BNP - but not yet. They haven’t done the job I hope they will do.

Germany operates on Civil Law, Dan. Its a whole different kettle of fish. And the rest of your post is just arguing against strawmen.

You argued that obeying the law was a necessary condition of Britishness: that if you don’t obey the law of the UK, then you’re not British. Dan’s simply pointed out a nice counterexample to your own principle. Give over.

(Bonus: Scotland has a radically different legal system to England, so it’s not at all clear that the name ‘the UK legal system’ actually refers to any living animal.)

You missed the point. You said that respecting the law of the land was a requirement of Britishness. So, if I respect the laws of Germany while I am in Germany, would that make me more German than someone of German citizenship who did not respect German laws?

I didn’t miss the point. I phrased my wording precisely. Many immigrants nowadays (mostly of one particular religion in particular) demand that UK law be changed to suit their beliefs. A criminal does not engage in criminal activity due to beliefs.

And furthermore, for immigrants, is not engaging in crimimal activity grounds for revocation of citizenship nowadays? Proves my point, doesn’t it?

Maven,

You are completely and utterly wrong. The BNP are NOT SUITED and incapable of doing “the job that you want them to do” (at least if I put a positive spin on what that job might be”. They are ignorant, fascist thugs.

The sort of person who could fulfil that sort of role more positively might be someone like the Bishop of Rochester, who knows what he is talking about, knows the problems assocaited with (some forms of) Islam, and isn;t a bigot or thug, but rather is a respected, honourable, decent, figure

Bishop of Rochester

Who, for all his admirable qualities, is still an adherent to an anti-human totalitarian death-cult, even if it is dressed up in a cardigan.

“Many immigrants nowadays (mostly of one particular religion in particular) demand that UK law be changed to suit their beliefs. A criminal does not engage in criminal activity due to beliefs.”

So being British entails supporting the status quo, with no changes to the law?

Haven’t had time to respond to anything. My bottom line is that I will combat the BNP - but not yet. They haven’t done the job I hope they will do.

Maven, I find this view quite chilling in its historical implications. At the risk of Godwinism, let me suggest that some “reasonable” Germans took a similar attitude to the Nazis at the beginning– they were bad, but at least they were reviving German pride and helping restore order. And once that was accomplished, that crazy Hitler could be replaced by more “responsible” leaders.

Sometimes I wish the CoE had the balls to be a death-cult. Most of it seems to have no principles at all, and is just some kind of middle-class hobby.

So being British entails supporting the status quo, with no changes to the law?

Once again, Dan, you’re flailing at windmills made out of straw.

Let’s hope british values are never embodied by Status Quo anyway…

Venichka stop this class obsession!

But the CoE always was a middle-class hobby (at least since it stopped being an upper-class one - around the time we let Jews, Catholics and non-conforming (read: “too poor for a pew”) Protestants into parliament.

I must have caught the class obsession from someone else…

re: the CoE/u-c then m-c hobby
Well, of course it was. I can think of no point in its existence at which I would have run to its defence.

“I don’t think you can call hanging people “British culture” Morgy, we didn’t invent it and we haven’t had one for 44 years.

I’d go more for Pooh sticks myself.”

I don’t see how that’s suppiosed be a proper punishment for murder. You’re one of those bleeding hearts, I take it… ;)

I must have caught the class obsession from someone else…

There’s no such thing as class though.

Enunciated as if by a true garden-centre unionist…

“Once again, Dan, you’re flailing at windmills made out of straw.”

Well, that makes two of us then. I am just trying to get to grips with your “logic”. What do you mean by respect for the law? If you mean respect for the Magna Carta, then I think you’ll find very few people who know anything about it beyond the name and even fewer who have seen and read it (I have, though!). Knowing and respecting the Magna Carta doesn’t make anyone more British, just as seeing and respecting the Cyrus Cylinder in the British Museum doesn’t make anyone more Iranian. If you mean understanding and obeying the laws, well, most people do respect the laws of the country they are in, regardless of whether they are a resident or visitor to that country. It does not make them belong to that country. As for maintaining a legal system, the law is radically different from the 13th century and most of the Magna Carta’s clauses have been repealed. The current controversy over detention without charge shows that the legal system continues to change. It has to change. Change is not un-British. I don’t see how allowing banks to offer Shariah-compliant financial products is un-British, it’s just an example of change determined by market forces.

You can see that as soon as “Britishness” is defined, it can be ridiculed. If someone wants to say “I am proud to be British”, then that’s fine with me. Just don’t expect others to conform to your ideas of patriotism, whether they are Muslim or not.

There’s no such thing as class though.

Says the man who made a big point of telling us of his “prole” background the other day…

Knowing and respecting the Magna Carta doesn’t make anyone more British

I don’t know about that. However, seeing and reading it - well, a tatty copy of it - left me with a feeling approaching reverence.

Says the man who made a big point of telling us of his “prole” background the other day…

I was taking the piss, Graham.

geez, a discussion about combating the BNP turns into a Morgoth “British” thread?

I always wondered how the Troubles would ultimately affect some residents (or ex-residents) of the Six counties? would they come out of it, with degrees of sanity or borderline?

from beating the drums, Orange Lodge parades, saluting pictures of the Queen and waving the union Jack to ranting about “Britishness”? post-traumatic stress must cause no end of problems for Morgoth, poor bloke.

I don’t see what is so “English” about the Magna Carta anyway. It was written in Latin, came about as the result of King John wanting Taxes to defend his French properties and The Barons who forced him into it were cultural Frenchmen.

Anglo-Saxon Common law - now that is “English.”

I was taking the piss, Graham.

I always knew you were the disinherited scion of some whacky aristo family.

Well Mod as Morgy thinks there is “no such thing as class” the subject of the post (and I quote:)

These are traditional working-class areas where people feel abandoned and ignored. It is into this alienation that the BNP moves.

Has become for him a mere chimera.

So he’s trolling.

indeed Graham,

let’s examine Morgoth notion of Britishness?

Royal family: part Greek, part German
tea - Indian/Chinese import
favourite British meal: curry - that’s a bit obvious?
favourite holiday destination? Spain?
music Jazz (and all of its offshoots): influenced by African beats

even the hero of the Battle of the Boyne, was a foreigner, William, a Dutch bloke

so if you start looking beneath the surface, Morgoth, you will find that very few things are really “British”

I believe the BNP will gain most of its support as a reaction to creeping islamisation, Multiculturalism is dying on its feet, It has been the dominant political ideology in the UK for 40 years and Islam is killing it off.

Islamists wish to step into the vacuum they are creating, A vacuum that would not exist if the political class had a bollock between them.

Others less squeamish will stand up to islam if mainstream politicians dont, The BNP like Islam can only get stronger, I don’t believe we’ve seen the worst from either of them.

At this point, I suspect the best strategy against the BNP might be to encourage the growth of the kind of independent local working-class political groups Lowles mentions. They might not subscribe to the kind of ideology the middle-class left think the proles should, but at least they aren’t controlled by a cabal of creepy fascist thugs.

‘equality of the sexes’ - I must have misread history then as i thought limited female franchise came in 1918-19, thats is after the CA elections in Russia.

So where does your weltanschuung of privatised re-education and deportation camps come into Britishness or indeed any particular definition of liberty, Morgy?

Maven, you are Carol II of Romania and I claim my five pounds. Or you are being retarded. Which do you prefer?

Fascists require political space to grow and a fertile wider culture of ethno-centric politics as well. Capitalist meritocracy, Triangulation and centre politics have provided the space, a wrong headed version of multi-culturalism has provided the wider culture. Mann has a rather fine theory about the replacement of the demos, aggragated along class lines by the ethnos, divided by race or identity. The demos is being abandoned as Mainstream politics squabble over a mythical centre, so an enpowering langauge of new identity is attractive and has political traction.

Demonstrate both the fallacies of their ideology and their uselessness in government and the BNP are doomed. To quote the article, ‘think nationally, act locally’

Indeed, fascists and Islamists have a similar aim, to divide society into two increasingly antagonistic camps, to reinforce their legitimacy as defenders of the volk/faith and consume any grounds of mediation, compromise or contact. Both are arch Sorelians, like VI and Robespierre.

Fascists require political space to grow and a fertile wider culture of ethno-centric politics as well. Capitalist meritocracy, Triangulation and centre politics have provided the space, a wrong headed version of multi-culturalism has provided the wider culture. Mann has a rather fine theory about the replacement of the demos, aggregated along class lines by the ethnos, divided by race or identity. The demos is being abandoned as Mainstream politics squabble over a mythical centre, so an enpowering langauge of new identity is attractive and has political traction.

I fervently wish it were true that ethnocentrism entered UK politics as a result of recent government policy. But that is simply not true. The deethnicised demos is indeed the way to go, but it will be a new creation, not the revival of an ancient one.

The BNP offices will be signing up new members right now today on the basiis of Harriet Harman’s new proposals for discrimination in the workplace.

It is lunacy.

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark ’s history, culture, and a Danish language test.

It’s been the case for decades that to become British, you have to show a proficiency in English (or Welsh).

You might also like to have a look at some of the books on sale on how to pass the citizenship test. I would wager most native-born Britons wouldn’t stand a chance.

i don’t think contemporary Britain constitutes “a multi-cultural hell”, and I don’t think that engaging someone like Griffin in a
debate with Islamists would help matters in any way at all, any more than his loathsome far-right equivalents in places like Denmark, Netherlands or Italy
help matters.

Could you please define far-right equivalenve? Otherwise it’s just an unsubstantiated slur.
Before you have drawn false moral equivalence between Islamists, who would abolish all parliamentary democracy, and people whom for whatever reason refuse differentiating Islam from Islamism. You might also care to study the Pue Research survey which found that over 30 percent of young Muslims would endorse killing apostates.
Is there any far-right equivalent with similar popularity in Denmark or Netherlands with views endorsing the killing of Christian apostates?
Criticize the right all you want, but please stop making silly comparisons, the antiislamic right would throw out Islamists, abolish suicidal human rights conventions and tighten immigration controls, something I would like, but stille leave democracy in place with equal though not special rights for all citizens, whereas even the peaceful Islamists would abolish gender equality, homosexual rights and freedom of speech.

LC wrote:

“abolish suicidal human rights conventions and tighten immigration controls, “

human rights? just waiting for:

“Lock em up no more human rights laws, throw away the key”

“the birch too good for them”

“Bring back good ol English stocks!”

well, this thread has certainly flushing out the Neanderthals, not much on combating the BNP tho

human rights? just waiting for:

“Lock em up no more human rights laws, throw away the key”

“the birch too good for them”

“Bring back good ol English stocks!”

well, this thread has certainly flushing out the Neanderthals, not much on combating the BNP tho

Now! Now!

What an incredibly self-centered display of righteous, moral preening.

You a high-browed, cro-magnon flower, Modernity, and so should be spared the unpleasant, repugnant and noxious business of drawing up a low-brow anti-BNP strategy!

Combating the BNP can only be achieved by combating radical Islamists….the biggest factor fuelling the BNPs ‘rise’.

I find this obsesssion with the BNP silly, counterproductive and downtight myopic, given that most ‘Far Right’ activity these days is taking place in various madrassas, mosques and Muslim centres across The West.

Montreal’s Jewish community, for example, has often been the object of anti-semitic grafitti and overturned tombstones on the part of Far Right whites. These attacks occured fairly frequently and although no one was physically attacked, nerves were nonetheless rattled.

That’s all changed though.

The last major anti-semitic attack opened up a whole new chapter in terms of both intensity and authorship.

A Jewish children’s school was bombed and its library so badly damaged it was pretty much totalled.

The identity of the authors?

Far Right, white skinheads?

Oh how, oh how you wish!

Get down off that sparkling, tinseled soapbox, Modernity, and muster the courage to see the ugliness for what it is and for WHO it is.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-7856.html

JP,

of course, you find the subject of the BNP difficult to understand, but then again you are in Canada and if they do grow, then it won’t affect you, will it?

and if they do grow and racial attacks increase on Muslims, Jews, Blacks, etc then again it won’t trouble you one bit?

Old JP’s solution to the BNP problem is to outflank them from the right :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRdgJ4V0QXc&feature=related

@modernity
The UK had sensible human rights before the ECHR was ever thought of, and frankly what your are implying doesn’t contradict my claim — that abolition of the ECHR’s non-refoulement prohibition making Britain a heaven for terrorists, , elaborated on by me in other threads, wouldn’t lead to any equivalent with a sharia dictatorship. And I haven’t advocated any imposition of the death penalty here or there, but even so, may I remind you that capital punishment is not a yardstick for measuring whether a nation is a democracy, nor has soft on crime prevention anything to do with democratic governance.
Removing the legal obstacle posed by the international human rights conventions would not impose any policy on the UK, nor would abolition of other treaty based rights change anything in domestic British law. The ECHR only forbids expulsion of individuals to countries where torture is afoot, and removing it would only remove a legal argument against expelling individuals, not obligate us to do anything previously forbidden to us by the convention.

“Voting BNP is the perfect protest vote”

Unless you’re ethnic minority, gay, migrant or in a “mixed-race” marriage.

That statement is just fucking nonsense because it assumes there’s no victims from the rise of explicitly racist parties. I’d love to know who that “Radio 4 liberal” was because they obviously have no idea whatsoever of the fear generated by the BNP.

Now we know where the BNP get their votes from then.

How telling of the pro-war left that so many comment on your blog describing the BNP as “useful idiots” or a viable protest vote. I actually expected better of your political malaise than that… :(

John Palubiski: “I find this obsesssion with the BNP silly, counterproductive and downtight myopic, given that most ‘Far Right’ activity these days is taking place in various madrassas, mosques and Muslim centres across The West.”

Please inform the three white skinned guys who attacked me on St George’s Day three years ago that they were wasting their time. Also remind the homophobe who chucked a pint of beer over my mate, that his ex-school teacher provided him with the education on which his business depends.

The BNP presents a clean face in public but it is just a screen for the bully boys. The far right has grown up presentationally and ensures that its public face is respectable to those who like suits and ties.

But there are two sets of “skins”.

The Islamic right have made themselves known over the last few years. Is that a folly, like walking down the street under a National Front banner? Or is it a smart recruiting technique for acceptable organisations that preach hate?

“that abolition of the ECHR’s non-refoulement prohibition making Britain a heaven for terrorists”

What does the ECHR have to do with non-refoulement? This is a matter of international law, not the Human Rights Act. Would you advocate opting out of the Geneva Convention?

“How telling of the pro-war left that so many comment on your blog describing the BNP as “useful idiots” or a viable protest vote.”

I don’t think most BNP sympathisers here would describe themselves as left-wing in any way. They are racist head-bangers. Graham lectures us on how we must reason with these people, but avoids engaging with them - perhaps he knows there is no point, since racists are inherently unreasonable.

Phil Beesley: Well said. A racist set alight a pile of dog shit on my doorstep in the early hours of the morning a few weeks ago, shouting “Paki” as the coward ran away, presumably in reference to my Asian wife. And the BNP controls five seats on the town council and four on the district. It is not a coincidence that the rise of the BNP has been accompanied by a rise in racist incidents, from the kind that I faced to beating the crap out of black people and celebrating it on the Stormfront website as an “act of resistance”. And it is not a poverty-stricken community or one that has seen a massive influx of non-white immigrants.

Graham lectures us on how we must reason with these people, but avoids engaging with them - perhaps he knows there is no point, since racists are inherently unreasonable.

I’m not lecturing you on anything mate I just think that you are part of the problem if you want to shut yourself away and create “others” who it is “below” you to have any dealings with. You want to call all ordinary voters who may be dallying with the idea of voting BNP “BNP sympathisers” so I rather feel you are in the business of creating racists. And why you are saying that I avoid “engaging with them” when I have told you above that I was conversing with somebody in that position just the other day I don’t know - perhaps you have a need to live in a world of your own creation?

This is a matter of international law,

That is irrelevant. Parliament cannot bind its successor, no matter what the EU for example would tell us.

rom beating the drums, Orange Lodge parades,

Err, you must have mistaken me for someone else who actually supports the Orange Order.

so if you start looking beneath the surface, Morgoth, you will find that very few things are really “British”

As Graham will no doubt tell you, every time some whinging liberal opens his mouth to dis British things (no matter their origin), that’s more votes for the BNP.

The rise in the BNP is directly correlated to Guardianistas a) screaming “racist” at anyone who expresses any sort of doubts about multiculturalism, immiagration, etc and b) pavlovian screaming “there’s no such thing as Britishness, how dare you be British!” at anyone whilst bending over backwards towards any foreign culture or third-world religion.

Keep on the way you’re going, Dan and Modernity, as we will have the ghastly spectre of Nick Griffin and the rest of his Nazi chums in Parliment. And it’ll be entirely YOUR fault.

“you are part of the problem if you want to shut yourself away and create “others” who it is “below” you to have any dealings with”

Too right I want to shut myself away from those who hate and perhaps want to harm me and my family because we are mixed race. I don’t want to be tainted by the gutter of politics.

“You want to call all ordinary voters who may be dallying with the idea of voting BNP “BNP sympathisers” so I rather feel you are in the business of creating racists.”

Absurd thing to say. How does my condemnation of BNP supporters make them racist? They are already racist. A party that targets particular ethnic and religious groups in their literature - plenty of it has come through my door - intended to inspire hatred is openly racist. Those who agree with it are racists.

“why you are saying that I avoid “engaging with them” when I have told you above that I was conversing with somebody in that position just the other day”
You’re not engaging with them here, are you? You’ve got plenty of time to criticise me and others, but no time to challenge the likes of Maven. Or perhaps you agree with them. This probably explains why you are blind to the realities of the BNP.

“perhaps you have a need to live in a world of your own creation?”
Perhaps your head is too far placed up your posterior.

come on, Morgoth

tell us what is “British”?? give us a few examples

surely a man of your intellectual capacity can come up with more than a few expressions of this Britishness, that is so key to you?

Too right I want to shut myself away from those who hate and perhaps want to harm me and my family because we are mixed race.

Yes and let others deal with the problem. Many of us are “mixed-race” get over yourself!

Absurd thing to say. How does my condemnation of BNP supporters make them racist?

Have you actually read this article we are discussing or did you turn up here just to talk shit?

You’re not engaging with them here, are you? You’ve got plenty of time to criticise me and others, but no time to challenge the likes of Maven. Or perhaps you agree with them. This probably explains why you are blind to the realities of the BNP.

You slimy little self-satisfied cunt - I have engaged more racists on here than you have had hot dinners. Perhaps you think anyone who identifies as “working-class” is BNP - in which case go fuck yourself creep - it may not be racism that is causing people to attack you…

How on earth anyone could mistake the Cat-owning Pagan for an Orangeman I’ve no idea.

Still, nice time of year NOT to be in the Promised Land (the Six Counties, not Canvey Island)

And what did you think I was doing with Palibuski you thick tosser? Congratulating him on his prescience?

“Keep on the way you’re going, Dan and Modernity, as we will have the ghastly spectre of Nick Griffin and the rest of his Nazi chums in Parliment. And it’ll be entirely YOUR fault.”

Why the hell does my opinion on “Britishness” or my identity justify the election of neo-Nazis? I have a right to define myself how I like and not have identity forced on me by a politician, particularly a neo-Nazi. The fact is that no-one here has been able to define the essence of “Britishness” because it does not exist - neither does Germanness or Indianness. That’s not to deride any particular people, it’s just a fact.

The BNP has come closest to actually defining something called identity by its narrow method of exclusion: you have to be white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, heterosexual and English-speaking. At least they come up with something tangible and not the kind of trite platitudes you dreamed up in 30 seconds. The exclusive BNP idea of national identity, when enforced, would lead to mass expulsions, concentration camps and other gross human rights violations. Perhaps you don’t see a problem in that, believing that human rights should not be codefied in English law (what the fuck was the Magna Carta if it was not intended as a binding Bill of Rights?).

The BNP has come closest to actually defining something called identity by its narrow method of exclusion: you have to be white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, heterosexual and English-speaking.

You really are still living at the time the specials wrote “racist friend” aren’t you?

Still, nice time of year NOT to be in the Promised Land (the Six Counties, not Canvey Island)

I know. I grew out of that pile of sectarian coat-trailing shite by the age of 13 or so.

“Perhaps you think anyone who identifies as “working-class” is BNP - in which case go fuck yourself creep”

Please read what I wrote instead of throwing a hissy fit. I said: “I don’t believe that the BNP has succeeded where I live because of a sense of white working-class alienation… The reason why people vote BNP is because they are racist and agree with that party’s fascist propaganda.” You are the one who has made the link between class and racism, not me.

“it may not be racism that is causing people to attack you…”
Keep beating the wife, Graham, she deserves it.

“what did you think I was doing with Palibuski you thick tosser?”
Well, you’re throwing invective at me, while responding to him with a link to a Youtube video on Chetniks. A bit of a lacklustre attempt at anti-racism, don’t you think, mate?

I thought JP outflanking the BNP from the Right was a good one (and funny), probably best in a pincher movement with Morgoth coming in from the left, waving dead chickens entrails at them?

still, Morgoth or anyone else is welcome to define Britishness and give a few examples

Please read what I wrote instead of throwing a hissy fit.

Ooh get you - why not read THE FUCKING ARTICLE?

You are the one who has made the link between class and racism, not me.

I don’t think so - I think IT WAS MADE IN THE FUCKING ARTICLE that we are discussing.

Keep beating the wife, Graham, she deserves it.

Well come on you obviously cannot tell the truth. How can we be sure that people don’t like you because you are a liar and make things up?

Well, you’re throwing invective at me, while responding to him with a link to a Youtube video on Chetniks. A bit of a lacklustre attempt at anti-racism, don’t you think, mate?

Oh yes. New here are you? Bit of a lacklustre attempt at context don’t you think? Not in the loop?

I was not “throwing invective at you” I was discussing the article which was linked too (at which point you decided that you were being “lectured” (because it is all about you isn’t it? Nobody else should be allowed to try and persuade prospective BNP voters not to vote for the party because dippy Dan disagrees that there is any point to it.

Moron.

Dan,

I’ve just read Graham’s comment taunting you about the racist attack on your family. It’s hard to know how to respond to that sort of evil shit, so I’ll just say I’m sorry you had to read it.

Oh fuck right off.

He lies about what I have said so I have just stopped believing anything he says. That isn’t taunting him.

“How can we be sure that people don’t like you because you are a liar and make things up?”
I couldn’t give a toss if you or others dislike me. Frankly, I barely know anyone where I live, so I doubt anyone has found out that I am, as you say, a “moron”, “thick tosser”, “liar”, “slimy little self-satisfied cunt”, etc. If they did, would that justify racist abuse?

“Nobody else should be allowed to try and persuade prospective BNP voters not to vote for the party because dippy Dan disagrees that there is any point to it.”

Well, at least I should be allowed to make my point that there is no point to “listening to the concerns” of those deluded and prejudiced folk who vote for neo-Nazis. It would be nice to make that point without your name-calling.

“He lies about what I have said so I have just stopped believing anything he says.”

I have a fucking big blue machine with two big aerials sticking out of it on my desk (which screws up my mobile phone and TV) which was installed by the police so that when I click a button on a remote control thing a patrol car will be there in minutes. So, the police believed there was sufficient cause for concern. I’ll take a photo of it and send it to you if you don’t believe me.

people whom for whatever reason refuse differentiating Islam from Islamism

Such people would include virtually all Muslims, who never use the word Islamism - a word that was invented by Western apologists for Islam to enable us to dance around its fundamentally nasty aspects without facing them squarely.

this thread has gone south :(

Well, at least I should be allowed to make my point that there is no point to “listening to the concerns” of those deluded and prejudiced folk who vote for neo-Nazis. It would be nice to make that point without your name-calling.

You have made the point over and over again. Nobody is stopping you. You live in an area where people are voting for the BNP and you wish to not engage with them - I live in an area where 15 years ago people voted for the BNP and now they don’t because something changed.

It would be nice to be able to make that point without your lying. I have no wish to “lecture” you or anyone else. I will engage with those who are open to dialogue. I may not change the minds of all those who are intending to vote for the BNP for reasons (as you will see when you get round to reading the article) which are sometimes other than racism but I won’t have written them all off as hard-line fascists when they quite obviously are not.

Is it racist to have to fill out a form about your ethnicity when you apply for a job, knowing that candidates will less experience and qualifications who have a different skin color than you own, will get the job and forefil the quota?
If that is not racism, what is?

Don’t those ethnicity forms usually tell you that they will not be used in the selection of the candidate just as a check on how the workforce of the company is constituted?

The ones I have filled in recently don’t even ask for your name and are addressed to a different dept.

I did read the article. I am making my point. I think the failure in the fight against the BNP was not to take it seriously when it was emerging as a political force, the failure to respond to its lies and the mainstreaming of some of its discourse by other parties. In this sense, I agree with the article that there needs to be more involvement in community activism and a handful of guys turning up at election time with leaflets; it’s a point I made elsewhere. There are also trends that work in its favour: a crowded slate of candidates with five or six parties standing and a low turn-out have enabled the BNP to edge in. As I said on another thread, having parties with no hope of getting elected - such as the LibDems or the Greens where I live - on the ballot paper just splits the anti-BNP vote. I don’t think that the BNP is the voice of the poor, dispossessed and desperate whites and in my area, where the BNP has had its best success in the southeast, there are very few who could be considered poor. I feel fairly alienated locally, particularly after the attack (which you don’t believe happened).

There is no anti-racist campaign locally other than the one run by the churches, which is Christian-oriented and excludes many of the people it claims to be wanting to protect. The article talks about the success “Redbridge and Epping Forest Together”, but I’ve seen nothing of them although I live in a BNP ward. I wrote an email to them to ask if I could help do something ahead of the local elections but got no response. Again, you could accuse me of lying. I don’t know anyone, don’t really trust anyone and have little interest in this weird little town. There is a racism problem that is deeply embedded and the best thing to do as an individual is to cut yourself off from it, keep safe and eventually find a safer and more tolerant place to live and warn people away from the place.

Some of the things I think of as British:

- Muddling through - a certain amateur approach to doing things
- A general stoicism in the face of adversity
- An unspoken belief that being British is actually better than being most other nationalities in the world
- A general sense of fair play and support for the underdog (I freely admit that the fair play thing has been in general decline for most of my adult life)
- A certain sense of humour (hard to define but you know it when you see it)
- A tolerance of poor service
- Pubs and warm beer
- Proper cheddar, long cooked pickles and chutneys
- An unarmed police force that is accountable to the public rather than vice versa (although this is something I think we are slowly losing)

Few if any of these are uniquely British I know so maybe it’s the combination that is what is defining.

Here is the alarm system - http://i27.tinypic.com/er0d4w.jpg - installed by the police in response to a racist attack that Graham claims I lied about, although if it did happen then I probably deserved it because I am a “slimy little self-satisfied cunt”.

Apologies for the superfluous ‘what is’ in the last sentence

I have a fucking big blue machine with two big aerials sticking out of it on my desk (which screws up my mobile phone and TV) which was installed by the police so that when I click a button on a remote control thing a patrol car will be there in minutes. So, the police believed there was sufficient cause for concern. I’ll take a photo of it and send it to you if you don’t believe me.

Is this some sort of mad one-upman ship from Dan? Well, Dan, I’ve carried the fucking coffins of people killed because of who they were. I’ve been there when people have received the phone calls that told them that totalitarian murderers have killed their loved ones because of something they had no control over. I’ve lost close relatives to the same totalitarian murderers. Don’t you fucking dare to try and play the victim card, Dan…

I think i officially get to say this - JP, LC, Alcuin, Maven - you are fellow travellers, you can now kiss the fascist.

Dan - may i ask if the BNP only attracts solely on the basis of race animosity, is that ambient level of rascism constant or does it vary? If the percentage of BNP votes rises, then does that mean there are more racists over voting age?

“Is this some sort of mad one-upman ship from Dan?”
I was giving an example, from personal experience, about how the BNP’s racist politics where I live was related to a rise in racist attacks. Graham claimed I was lying, so I said I had an alarm system installed because there was concern about our wellbeing, especially given violent racist attacks in the town. It’s not one-upmanship at all, nor is it playing the victim card. It is explaining the consequences for innocent people of the election of BNP councillors to those who think that voting BNP is just some light-hearted way of scaring the establishment.

“may i ask if the BNP only attracts solely on the basis of race animosity, is that ambient level of rascism constant or does it vary? If the percentage of BNP votes rises, then does that mean there are more racists over voting age?”

I think around 10% of any population is inclined towards extremist politics, but there are latent prejudices in many people that can be encouraged and drawn out by extremists. These prejudices are not confined to class. The BNP vote has risen where I live because there is no adequate anti-racism campaign and no attempt by mainstream parties to head off their propaganda.

of course, you find the subject of the BNP difficult to understand, but then again you are in Canada and if they do grow, then it won’t affect you, will it?

Modernity, the BNP is an odious outfit for which I’d never vote. They have bully boys in their ranks as well as plently of old-style racists, jew-haters and homophobes

That said, banging on about the BNP is also a form of comfort food, a food with both a low fibre and low nutriton content that, though appealing to the palate, offers up little in the way of real nouishment.

There is a posting just below this one about a 12 year old boy ( and 120 others) who’ve been attracted to Al Queda’s ‘culture’.

So you’ve got 12 year-old native Britians learning the fine arts of mass murder, and being goaded into committing such acts.

Now at the risk of sounding like a BNP supporter, I’d like to just ask one question; How is that better than being a member of Nick Griffin’s fan club?

What can one say? The BNP have been out flanked by a newer, larger and much more dangerous incarnation of Far Right.

And to boot, we offer protection and tolerance to this foreign-based Far Right and we accuse all who denounce this extremism as racist.

Furthermore this islamist Far right openly preaches the vilest forms of jew-hatred and homo-hatred in networks of mosques across the UK.

They aren’t just out to bash queers and/or Jews, but to destroy our civilisation, our democarcy and practically all of the rights and freedoms we’ve spent centuries battling to obtain.

Nick Griffin is but a little shit who means peanuts.

I was giving an example, from personal experience, about how the BNP’s racist politics where I live was related to a rise in racist attacks. Graham claimed I was lying,

Er no, I claimed you were lying about what I had said in this thread (Having virtually claimed that being attacked by a couple of kids meant that your entire area was full of fascists you now seemed to want to extend that outwards to saying that anyone criticising you on the internet was a BNP member too) and that this made me suspicious about anything else you were saying. But carry on with the untruth’s why don’t you. You are a classic example of someone who drives people into Griifin’s arms.

A simple “Don’t vote nazi” is an irrelevant slogan that needs to be discarded immediately. That is not to say that we should not highlight the real politics of the BNP and its leadership but we must address people where they currently are. And in terms of that, very few people see the BNP as a nazi party.

Of course this is the truth. The hyperbole used by leaders of the left for years on this subject is now coming home to roost. “Wolf” has been cried too often.

We need to replace empty slogans with substance, and that means involving ourselves in the community as never before. If the BNP support is driven by racial prejudice, often whipped up by the national media, economic deprivation and a loss of identity, then these are the three issues we need to contest.

How is it possible to involve ourselves in these communities without fighting for economic justice as well? Isn’t the quickest answer for the government to show that it cares about run-down areas without hope?

“Having virtually claimed that being attacked by a couple of kids meant that your entire area was full of fascists you now seemed to want to extend that outwards to saying that anyone criticising you on the internet was a BNP member too”

Well, that’s a misrepresentation. The racism locally is not confined to a couple of people lighting dog shit on doorsteps, but includes violent attacks on black people. Where did I infer that everyone that criticised me was a BNP member? There are a couple of people here who are certainly prejudiced against Muslims and say they would vote BNP to “send a message”. I called them BNP sympathisers, because that’s what they are.

“How is it possible to involve ourselves in these communities without fighting for economic justice as well?”

Such activism against social injustice is only proposed by anti-racist campaigners where the BNP is successful. The message is effectively: “Vote for neo-Nazis if you want something done” - which is exactly what Maven et al are saying! What about those communities that don’t support racial extremists? Fighting poverty should not be linked to fighting racism, because that will just pour fuel on the fire.

Where did I infer that everyone that criticised me was a BNP member?

Well you inferred that I was not doing enough to argue with those that you have decided are BNP supporters by saying “Or perhaps you agree with them.” Accusing anyone who disagrees with you of sympathising with the BNP would therefore appear to be your default position. There seems in your view to be little difference between the BNP leadership, those possibly about to vote for them out of some need for “belonging” and anybody on the internet who disagrees with you on the best way to solve the problem. Now I have a long history of anti-racism and therefore will just laugh at this while putting you down as mildly dangerous, but others will ask themselves why, if they are being told they are “BNP sympathisers” anyway, they shouldn’t vote for such a party just to piss people like yourself off.

To put it simply if you want to change attitudes it helps to give people room for manouevre and not write them off as “fascists” just because they don’t see the world in the way you do.

What about those communities that don’t support racial extremists? Fighting poverty should not be linked to fighting racism, because that will just pour fuel on the fire.

This idea that there are whole communities which “support” racial extremists is rubbish for starters. And where has anybody said that ANY area that is distressed should not get help? The point made in the article above is that just as some young cultural muslims may find “identity” from joining Islamist sects some whites may find it by voting BNP. I quote from the article:

The BNP is emerging as the voice of this forgotten working class. A survey of the wards that produced the 25 best BNP votes in May shows plainly the profile of BNP supporting areas. All but one rank well below average in the Indices of Deprivation and the one exception, Queensbury in Bradford, is roughly average. Nearly all are among the top 10% most deprived areas.

So let us do something about the deprivation in all those deprived areas and then (as in Bermondsey, long a stronghold of far-right parties and a place where even 10 years ago some black women I knew would not even set foot) we may see a big change in attitudes.

“So let us do something about the deprivation in all those deprived areas and then (as in Bermondsey, long a stronghold of far-right parties and a place where even 10 years ago some black women I knew would not even set foot) we may see a big change in attitudes.”

Looking at the election results for North Southward and Bermondsey, the far-right vote was 1.9% in 1997 and 1.9% in 2005 and stayed within the region of 700-800 votes throughout that period. Hardly a BNP/NF stronghold. The BNP got more votes in my ward than in the whole of that constituency. And has poverty actually fallen markedly in Bermondsey in the past 10 years?

There may be poor areas where the BNP is strong, but the BNP has also succeeded in wards like mine where there isn’t any poverty and there are hundreds of wards where poverty is rife and the BNP has no support but where people are unhappy and disillusioned. If people only worry about poverty when the BNP wins votes, then this is probably more likely to push voters into the arms of Nick Griffin than anything I may say. As it is, I disagree that the BNP vote is necessarily linked to poverty, since middle-class people are voting for the party - in Henley, their vote was higher than Labour. The BNP vote is linked to racism.

Yes you are right that there are richer areas where the BNP is doing well (but that isn’t really the subject of this post.)

Looking at the election results for North Southward and Bermondsey, the far-right vote was 1.9% in 1997 and 1.9% in 2005 and stayed within the region of 700-800 votes throughout that period. Hardly a BNP/NF stronghold.

Well my point was that it was no longer a BNP/NF stronghold. However it used to be and the people were tarred with the label of “racist” (even as many of them intermarried with the children of immigrants.) You don’t need to have lots of people voting BNP for an area to get the reputation that it is full of racists. The BNP/NF used to march through Bermondsey weekly to provoke as can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoRcOCO0e3A

The BNP got more votes in my ward than in the whole of that constituency. And has poverty actually fallen markedly in Bermondsey in the past 10 years?

The area is now basically part of metropolitian inner-London with a tube station, shopping centre and masses of new housing developments - so whilst poverty still exists the entire area is completely different to the abandoned old dockland it was in (say) 1983. The BNP would not march through now, nobody would suggest that there was a hard-core of racists in the area (though some undoubtedly remain - and some probably went to places like Loughton) and there is an atmosphere of hope which I rather suspect is what is missing in these wards which are referred to in the article. I realise fighting poverty will do little for you but it just might undermine core support for the BNP and take away any “legitimacy” that they may feel they are gaining.

I was in a school in Topwer Hamlets yesterday watching a bunch of 13 year olds carry out an exercise on leadership - they were wrtiting names of leaders (good and bad) on a flip chart, and somone had written ‘BNP’ as an example. One of the (afro-carribean0 kads had to ask what it was - I didn’t know whether that was gopod or bad.

Well in my days at (a 50% Afro-Carribean) school all the kids would certainly have known what the NF was - as they were outside every week handing out leaflets and glaring at the black kids.

So IMHO kids in Tower Hamlets not even knowing what the BNP are is good (at least until they get into govt and politics lessons.)

Dan - “When it comes to poverty, poor housing and social exclusion, then whites, blacks, Muslims and non-Muslims suffer the same problems. Rather than blaming each other and either voting for a Nazi party or joining a religious extremist group, they should unite and do something constructive about it.”

Actually that is not true. A large part of Muslim poverty, poor housing, and social exclusion is self-inflicted. As someone else says, no White person is forcing Muslim families to take their daughters out of school at 15 and marrying them to illiterate Pakistani cousin. It is not a problem for White teens to any real extent. Nor for Hindu ones - British Asian Hindus being the richest community of all.

As for the BNP, I can’t see myself voting for them in the near future. On the other hand I do enjoy seeing them push the Labour Party down into Fifth place! There is a reason to vote for them here to send a message to the main parties. But I still don’t think I could do it. Also this is a classic case of “engagement” working. The BNP is becoming more and more mainstream, in part because the mainstream is less tolerant but also because they are getting rid of the skinheads and wearing suits. I think, ironically, voting for them encourages them to become more civilised. I still wouldn’t want to do it myself.

So Much: I disagree that the poverty facing Muslims in the UK is self-inflicted and defining Muslims as a cultural community ignores the differences between Muslims. There may be cases of Muslim girls being taken out of school for arranged marriages, although 15 year olds cannot get married. There are also plenty of cases of negligent white parents who do little to deal with their children’s truancy and drinking and drug problems. But I don’t think white people are inflicting poverty on themselves. There are profound and deep-rooted economic problems that go beyond the behaviour of a few anti-social whites or conservative Muslims. And these are common to all ethnic groups.

“There is a reason to vote for them here to send a message to the main parties”
What the fuck is that message? The BNP’s policies include the expulsion of non-white people, an end to mixed-race marriages, the criminalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of abortion, nationalisation of the banking system, increasing gun ownership, the reintroduction of hanging and flogging, etc. Is the message people sending the mainstream parties that they want one or more of these policies?

“The BNP is becoming more and more mainstream, in part because the mainstream is less tolerant”

I agree with that.

Regarding Tower Hamlets, I lived there from 1995 to 1998 and witnessed the mobilisation of anti-fascist activism in the borough. There had been a decisive and aggressive response to the BNP win in Millwall in 1993 and the party was not able to retain the seat or win another. The tactic worked - the BNP are not a force in the borough, although I don’t think the problem of poverty has been addressed. In contrast, in Epping Forest the anti-fascist campaign has been so soft that it amounts to tickling racists with feathers. Consequently, the BNP has strengthened its position and not because of any social problem, but because racism has not been challenged and has become acceptable - at first targetting the local gypsy population (which has been present far longer than the East London influx since the 1950s/60s), then moving onto wild accusations about black students at the local FE college, lies about an imminent plan to relocate hundreds of asylum seekers here and a string of “Islam is the Enemy” leaflets.

@Dan
“you don’t see a problem in that, believing that human rights should not be codefied in English law (what the fuck was the Magna Carta if it was not intended
as a binding Bill of Rights?).”
Wrong, the Magna Carta was not lex superior to other laws,but could be modified or overruled by the power possessed with competence to make new legislation.
Also the Magna Carta was very limited in its scope large to freemen and did not extend crazy asylum right to alien subversives.
When referring to the non-refoulement principle I dit not only mean the ECHR but the other corpus of international law forcing us to host terrorists. All these norms are subject to repeal and deratification by Parliament, since no international law can deprive Parliament of its absolute prerogative, in particular not when the subject is exercise of the traditional plenary power of admission or exclusion of aliens.

What the fuck is that message? The BNP’s policies include the expulsion of non-white people, an end to mixed-race marriages, the criminalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of abortion, nationalisation of the banking system, increasing gun ownership, the reintroduction of hanging and flogging, etc. Is the message people sending the mainstream parties that they want one or more of these policies?

But since they are never going to get any power to implement those policies it doesn’t matter what they think.

Even if they hold these as policies its astounding that people vote for them and I believe their votes are increasing. In a democracy we have to respect people’s right to vote BNP even if we hate them. We then have to ask “Why DO people vote for them when they hold these views”? I happen to think that the reason is the changes in working class areas in terms of cultural appearance and what appears to be ghettoisation.

As someone from the Hackney/Clapton/Noth London area I am astounded to walk down Walthamstow market and wonder what country I am in. The same with Luton. I don’t comment about this from a racial perspective I first comment from the visual impact in the changing character of a market and town that once had the British Culture I grew up with from the 1950’s onwards.

I think its older people +40 who see cultrural change and erosion more than people who are growing up in it. Its like the frog in boiling water syndrome.

I am not arguing that contributing to the sum of “Britishness” by offering other cultural choices is bad but I can understand the description “I feel lkke an alien in my own country”. I do NOT believe its right wing fascist Nazis who feel this way but older populations who can see the changes far more than people with lower ages who were born after things changed.

Its difficult to avoid appearing to be racist by making those observations but I am truly not. I believe in Britain maintaing its historical character but evolving with the best practices of diversity.

That is why I think the BNP have votes. I would rather that the mainstream parties acknowledged the middle age to older voters because I believe they are the majority. I just don’t like ‘latecomers’ telling us what’s wrong with us. Either you are with us or against us.

I’m well over 40 and have never known anything but cultural change. We should be used to it by now. I could (and still do to Dan’s probable annoyance) understand to some extent your attitude in the generation who fought WW2 but not in anyone who has come of age since the sixties. Unless you are saying we all pine for what is gone of course in which case you would have to say that it is the challenge of the new which keeps you alive!

“As someone from the Hackney/Clapton/Noth London area I am astounded to walk down Walthamstow market and wonder what country I am in. ”

It’s great, isn’t it? Wherever I go, I always miss eclectic London, especially the exotic fruit and veg on the market - there’s a great Afro-Caribbean store in Walthamstow market and I particularly like the bread and sweets at the Turkish supermarket on Hoe Street. For me, this is what makes London special and I really don’t understand why anyone would want to be rid of it. If you feel secure about who you are and your identity, you’d have no problem with people who are different. Nevertheless, I don’t think nostalgia is the motivation for voting BNP, particularly as most BNP voters do not remember a country before mass immigration. And I do not think that every elderly person feels that change is necessarily bad. My grandparents still remember the hunger marches from Jarrow and other northern towns. My great-grandfather walked from Hartlepool to Cardiff for work and my grand-father was forced to leave school at 14 for work. If you think that multi-culturalism is mad hell, try speaking to those who experienced the Depression or the rationing and fear of a country under attack by the Nazis and fighting for its survival. Britain isn’t living in hell, just the problems have shifted.

The UK is not an impoverished country; we have a good free healthcare system (staffed by a lot of immigrants from the developing world), we have free education, we have high levels of literacy and long life-expectancy, no-one need starve in this country, there is relative peace and security, etc. These are the tangible things to feel proud about and to hold onto, not monarchs and empires, warm beer and spinsters on bicycles, etc. And the task is to make the country better, tackle the problems of social inequality and ensure that more people have the opportunity to choose what they want to do with their lives, not to divide people by religion and colour and make certain groups of people feel unwelcome and despised.

I really don’t understand how anyone can vote for the BNP unless they are racist. Perhaps we should introduce a new box on ballot papers: “reopen nominations”. That way, people can have a real protest against the mainstream parties, if that’s really the reason why people vote BNP. I am sure parties would campaign harder as a result, turn-out would improve and parties would be more responsive.