Harry’s Place

I have heard that they also own Nandos.

Shock! Horror! Erstwhile lefties becoming right wing wankers in middle age. ‘Cos that’s never happened before, has it. From Monbiot’s description, it appears they have gone against type and moved to the libertarian right rather than the authoritarian right, that so many Labourites have embraced.

This is not libertarianism, it is contrarianism for the sake of provocation. If you want to hear a sensible libertarian, listen to someone like Sean Gabb, not a bunch of self-serving ex-Trots.

It’s good to know that pwning takes place on Radio 4…

I think they are pretty good value. Far too contrarian sometimes, but they do tend to ginger up the debate, and they are right about a lot of the issues they campaign on, at least in diagnosing the problem. I think they are to be found all over the place because they earn the attention they given by being interesting, although there is a bit of motley thrown in sometimes.

Of course, this is not to say that they are not offensively wrong about some thing too, but people are, aren’t they?

On the issue of hysteria over paedophilia, I share the concerns that suspicion and regulation has gone too far in segregating adults and children. I was treated as a sexual predator by one mother when her daughter started speaking to me in a cafe; I couldn’t ignore the child and as her mother was with her I didn’t think there would be a problem. She was snatched away, told off and I was glared and sneered at. If a child came up to me and spoke to me in somewhere like Italy, her parents would probably have joined in the conversation. The alienation of children is dangerous, but the RCP would like to head so far in the opposite direction that there would be absolutely no safeguards and I suspect that they would advocate the legalisation of paedophilia. They take such an extreme viewpoint, but tend to get more coverage as a result, thereby ensuring that there is no-one putting forward an argument for sensible balance in regulation and that public paranoia persists.

“It’s good to know that pwning takes place on Radio 4″

Is that a typo or a neologism?

They successfully inveigled their way into the field of science communication which is a little worrying given their habit of acting as a platform for global warming denialists. Still Fitzpatrick was spot on about MMR and other health scares and they’re one of the few groups not irrationally fearful of nuclear power and GM (although they take their support waaaaay too far).

They’ve already taken over writing the scripts for ‘Spooks’. They’ll be owning all the newspapers and major Hollywood studios next. Can’t wait to see the first RCP-controlled Bond film.

“They successfully inveigled their way into the field of science communication which is a little worrying given their habit of acting as a platform for global warming denialists.”

Actually I think that they tend to be more right than wrong on the question of global warming, especially in their denunciation of the ant-development wing of the green movement that seems to want to keep the worlds poor in a state of picturesque poverty rather than risk a warmer world. But opinions aren’t really the point, the RCP contribution makes for a much more nuanced debate, even if their approach is sometimes a bit blunt. To that degree they are a good thing. And Frank Furedi is a practically a lone voice on the question of childhood and risk, and one that is much needed.

“Can’t wait to see the first RCP-controlled Bond film”

Never Say ‘Infantilise’ Again

The Quantam of Soi-Disant ‘Liberals’

Ferudi’s stuff on the culture of fear is interesting, and if you can’t answer it then just labelling them a cult is not perhaps the most intelligent response.

They actually started as a splinter from the Revolutionary Communist Group, whose newspaper, Fight Racism, Fight Imperialism, saves time, as the excellent guide to 1980s left As Soon as this Pub Closes, remarked, both being both a slogan and a sales pitch. Their first journal was published by the Revolutionary Communist Tendency, and I am the proud owner of a couple of them (any offers on E-Bay?).

Apart from endlessly repeating their one insight about fear and risk-aversion I don’t think the RCP-cabal’s ideas generally are of the slightest interest. (1) I could dream them up, or similar, as a thought-experiment in five minutes (e.g. organic vegetables? Negation of scientific advance. Helping the South with its food production problems? Nanos on every High Street). (2) I hear some of these views from the usual pub eccentrics who manage to find them easily all on their own after a few pints.

Actually I think that they tend to be more right than wrong on the question of global warming, especially in their denunciation of the ant-development wing of the green movement that seems to want to keep the worlds poor in a state of picturesque poverty rather than risk a warmer world.

Oh I think they go quite a bit further than haranguing the Luddite wing of the green movement in that on occasion they actively promote the pernicious myths that global warming isn’t largely anthropogenic and that even if it is it won’t do much harm.

But Andrew, an idea doesn’t have to be entirely original or unexpected to have value. The fact that ‘ordinary’ people can come to similar conclusions is hardly an argument against, if anything it is the opposite. But the RCP lot et these arguments out there and that is a useful function. And despite all their pointing out that the organic farming/soil association/anti-GM movement is a racket, a lot of intelligent people still subscribe to that lobby’s ideas, so it’s not like something doesn’t need saying.

“Oh I think they go quite a bit further than haranguing the Luddite wing of the green movement in that on occasion they actively promote the pernicious myths that global warming isn’t largely anthropogenic and that even if it is it won’t do much harm.”

They do, and I think they are likely right on both counts. I don’t think that with any degree of certainty, though, because I think I am very likely to be wrong, there simply is not enough data to tell. But the other side seem to be irrationally certain of their position and so it is useful having some people around willing to point out that their assuredness is irrational and unscientific. Tyler Cowen had a good discussion on this point recently, by the way, and suggested that we always should give a percentage estimation of confidence in our views which shuld never be as high as 95%.

If a child came up to me and spoke to me in somewhere like Italy, her parents would probably have joined in the conversation: Dan I don’t know if this is a specific paedophobia issue or a more general case of atomism, in which I don’t think pro or anti RCP views play any part.

Last week at M&S paying point, a small boy in the queue behind me kept removing the divider between his mother’s shopping and mine. When mine reached the cashier, I replaced the divider and addressing him, explained kindly that the reason it was there was so our shopping didn’t get mixed up. The mother, Eastern European accent but good English, told me sharply not to talk to her child- if he was doing anything wrong, I should tell her. But he is not doing anything wrong, I said, I like to talk to children but if you don’t want me to talk to yours, I won’t. No, don’t, she snapped.

I came away sad and angry: I do like to address a child directly as a human being when it is possible to explain rather than complain over their head. And if the child imbibes this proprietal attitude, it transforms into the Rights culture (maybe where RCP comes in) and you tell off an older child with no parent present, and they complain you have no right to and are infringing their Human Rights.

Their success (if success it is) may well be related to the paternalististic weltanschauung of the George ‘Let’s all live in Tinker’s Bubble’ Monbiot tendency - and the fatuities of contemporary ‘yes-but no-but’ liberalism.

It’s important to know where they’re coming from, although I’m not sure about the way they’re treated here as a shadowy masonic network. In terms of their cultural policy - I’m right behind it, and right against Government instrumentalism, which treats the arts either as a branch of social work or as an excuse for patriotic grandstanding. The individualist-libertarian-autonomist message is not centre stage in public discourse, and I’m glad someone is putting it there, however flawed. You invoke Furedi, but fail to add that he has led the debate on cotton wool parenting, which is now a mainstream argument.

Yes, there can be a tedious contrarianism to it, Brendan thingummy for example - but hey, it’s all part of the marketplace of ideas. I’d say the soft centrism of the BBC/Guardian/Independent was far more pervasive and baleful.

Well John, I see no further point in debating with you on the Spiked approach to global warming because, like many of their writers, you think your opinion and analysis better than that of climate scientists. Perhaps the success of Spiked’s approach to science is that it flatters the egos of those who think they know best because it confirms their prejudices.

This is also why I consider Spiked and their proxies as ultimately harmful to science communication. They are right that the organic movement and anti-GM is largely based on non-scientific scaremongering but this is not news. Many scientists know this, its just that the media refused to give them a voice. Now that the media love Spiked these voices get heard, which is a good thing, however piggybacking along with this rational criticism of the organic lobby are distortions, half truths and lies regarding climate that no credible climate scientist agrees with. They are using their credibility earned on one scientific issue to act as a vector to inject nonsense into the public debate on other issues.

That Dr Fizpatrick reminded me of the specialist physician who told me in the early eighties that it was better for me to keep on smoking the odd cigarette to relax me when I felt stressed.

John and Gimpy, you’re both right about this organic farming business in terms of the food itself. I find all kind of middle-class people (not that I know many) gleam at the thought of something ‘organic’ as if it has magic properties. There is a point about it though. As someone living just next to the countryside I see all that plastic sheeting and the effects of spraying. My argument for it would not be for the wonderful properties of stuff that costs double the normal vegetables but I actually do like the wild flowers and the fact that I can see hares and partridges in areas not affected by this industrial farming (the Suffolk Sandlings).

The stars are god’s daisy chains, bunnies are eleves, and I will not eat flesh slain in anger (just passed away peacefully), as my good friend Madeline Basset says.

“Well John, I see no further point in debating with you on the Spiked approach to global warming because, like many of their writers, you think your opinion and analysis better than that of climate scientists.”

If you see no point, then I guess there is no point. But I should point out that my opinion and analysis is shared by many climate scientists, so what you really mean is you don’t wish to address views you do not yourself hold. A separate issue is that climate scientists are not, in every case, the best people to lead the debate on climate change when it becomes a question of economic consequence and social policy. And the final point, of course, is that no climate scientists, from either side of the debate, can hold their views with much more than 55% to 65% certainty if they are truly being rational and scientific. That leaves a lot of room for debate.

“My argument for it would not be for the wonderful properties of stuff that costs double the normal vegetables but I actually do like the wild flowers and the fact that I can see hares and partridges in areas not affected by this industrial farming (the Suffolk Sandlings).”

Actually, I agree with this, elves, bunnies and all. I am all for local ecology and conservation when it is called by the right name. IOf people want pretty fields, and are willing to pay for it, good for them. Likewise if they want to eat local produce in season etc, etc. But let’s not let them get away with making a moral claim for their preferences (the besetting vice of the upper middle classes).

My real gripe is with special interest lobbies like the Soil Asscoaition which is treated by the media as if it is an impartial commentator on ecological questions. Of COURSE they want to stop competition by Africa farmers.

It’s good to know that pwning takes place on Radio 4…

I haven’t heard them exclaim “woot!” yet though.

I haven’t heard them exclaim “woot!” yet though.

O RLY?

‘I find all kind of middle-class people (not that I know many) gleam at the thought of something ‘organic’ as if it has magic properties’.

Maybe they all went to Steinerist Waldorf Schools of ‘Science’. Now there’s a faith that wnats topping in its tracks.

“Magic properties”? You got that right. I once saw a notice at the bakery corner of a Sainsbury’s which said “our staff will be happy to slice your bread, but please be aware that the blade may have been in contact with non-organic bread”. I tried unsuccessfully to convince myself it was a spoof… Or did they have it confused with kosher???

Dan: ‘pwned’ is a typo turned neologism. Welcome to hell.

The Moral Maze really is all about pwnership, isn’t it?

Well I don’t agree with much of what they say but the Furedi crowd do provide an alternative view to the stifling blanket of political correctness we currently labour under, so I don’t really care whether they are liberatarian or contrarian.

I do agree with many correspondents here that the desire to protect children from predatory adults has gone too far. It says in the press today that another 20,000 (?) adults who work with children are to be subject to further checks.

I suspect this is all the fall out from Ian Huntley falling through the net. And that of course occurred because the police and the authorities were too ill-informed and incompetent to keep and exchange the records about him, despite his record, so that he ended up a school caretaker.

Sounds like a good deal of libertarian thinking on show. HP is upset they dont want the state putting electronic chips into peoples bins, and chucking them in the nick for 6 weeks without charge. Churchill was right, you cant have Labourism without the Gestapo.

There’s scope out there on the Intern Net for an RCP Reaction Generator engine.

You type in the ishoo “someone looks at my kid/is he a peedo?” and the medium “The Times/anytime, any programme on Radio 4/own website” and press Return, and there’s your edgy contrarian reply without the need to grow an ironic beard.

You think the RCP lot are redundant and could be replaced easily by cheap Japanese technology Boyo?

I think I agree.

Not only do I think it, Graham; I reckon they would welcome such a development in their crazy, “Yo Slobo!” way.

Not only do I think it, Graham; I reckon they would welcome such a development in their crazy, “Yo Slobo!” way.

So you’re saying that the RCP are Cybermen?

“Of course, this is not to say that they are not offensively wrong about some thing too, but people are, aren’t they?”

No, not often as wrong as the LM po-mo crew. Isn’t everyone forgetting their history of being apologists for ethnic cleansing? Not good value for money - scum never are.

Thermaland: I see the signs at Sainsbury’s exhorting me to buy their bag for life, and the Earth will say “Thank you!” and I think “No it won’t, Gaia doesn’t give a f-k if I buy a bagforlife, it will sort itself out even if people don’t figure in that rearrangement.”

I always wonder if self appointed child rearing experts like frank fueredi have any kids and if so what they’re like.

Thank you for saving the planet by shopping at Sainsbury’s, buying a tin of organic baked beans and a bag-for-life. The inner calm and gleam this will give will help reduce global warming.

Peace, sisters, brothers and transgendered people.

Dan: “listen to someone like Sean Gabb”.

What? Have you read his bumpf? The man’s a revolutionary. He wants to destroy pretty much everything going in this country (not just the political class) and start again.

Shuggy is quite right to bring up their stance on ethnic cleansing, and it is worth remembering that as you read their views on Zimbabwe (We make things worse), China (Stop China bashing and re-inventing the yellow peril!), and any other humanitarian issue.

Scum.

2No, not often as wrong as the LM po-mo crew. Isn’t everyone forgetting their history of being apologists for ethnic cleansing? Not good value for money - scum never are.”

Actually I hadn’t forgotten, and I think they were wrong and dishonest about that. But that does not mean that the opinions of every affiliated person should be dismissed. To do that is just tripping into another form of identity politics.

Frank Furedi has at least one child last time I read about him, who is being brought up according to his father’s views on exposing to children to risk, judging from accounts which surface in the press from time to time. No wrapping kids in cotton wool is something he is very hot on.

Mrs Ben

To do that is just tripping into another form of identity politics.

Mark Kermode was a member of the RCP as I understand it. His views on the third part of the Pirates trilogy was spot on.

I don’t think the RCP are any more a functioning sect than the Socialist Organiser people David T rather amusingly made big fuss about regarding Livingstone. Like them, they have just grown up together, got jobs pontificating in the media, or in think wankery, quangos etc, and kept in contract.

Back in 1992 I watched the RCP campaign rather energetically in the Sheffield Hallam constituency and get 99 votes.

Mark Kermode was a member of the RCP

Really? But he seems quite sensible apart from his hairstyle.

As for Claire Fox… I don’t know what it is about her that really bugs me.
Even if I agree with her she is still annoying.

Ferudi’s stuff on the culture of fear is interesting
True

But that does not mean that the opinions of every affiliated person should be dismissed. To do that is just tripping into another form of identity politics.

I’m not so sure about that. The LM crowd are like so many former Marxists: you’d think if someone no longer believed in Marxism they’d retain a commitment to social justice, the emancipation of the working class etc. But what seems to happen so often is that it is the economic determinism that dies last. The LM crew derive their morality from being on what they see as the right side of history. This is why, for example, that most of them seem to spend a great deal of their time prostrating themselves before the rising Chinese dragon. In this sense, I don’t think it’s guilt by association: we should look at every argument they ever make with the understanding that, at base, what moves and animates them - despite their protestations to the contrary - is the cynical worship of power, and power that has been completely emptied of anything one could associate with the left. This is why they backed the Serbs - they admired their Will to Power. It is for this reason they also backed Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf war. Nietzscheans is what they are. I think this should be remembered every time anyone finds their arguments ‘interesting’.

As for Claire Fox… I don’t know what it is about her that really bugs me.
Even if I agree with her she is still annoying.

The deafeningly strident tone of her voice?

LM seem to have decided that libertarian capitalism has won and if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The interesting problem with organic and non-organic foods is trace elements, which are found in even smaller percentages in nonorganic foods. It’s generally agreed that trace elements are good for human health, but no-one knows what very very small proportion is inadequate, what very small proportion is good for us and what not much larger proportion is bad for us, or even how or why we benefit or don’t benefit from them.

The deafeningly strident tone of her voice?

Isn’t she an ex-teacher?

Really? But he seems quite sensible apart from his hairstyle.

Kermode is a Creationist.

Kermode is a Creationist.

Really?

Yet another cult like element of the old RCT was its attitude to the sexual relations of its membership. It was well known that the RCT at the University of Kent in the 1980s (Furedi’s base) forbade members from shtupping each other and sent out the better looking comrades to recruit new members by what the Christian cults called ‘flirty fishing’. They were seriously weird and, though they’ve dropped leninism for right wing libertarianism, they have not changed.

“They were seriously weird and, though they’ve dropped leninism for right wing libertarianism, they have not changed.2

Libertarianism, yes, but not ‘right wing in any obvious sense, is it?

Mark Kermode is reputedly ex-RCG.
Dan: “I suspect that they would advocate the legalisation of paedophilia”. Although trainspotters such as Dave T may recall the 1988 controversy with the Workers Power Group, who advocated abolishing the age of consent, whereas the RCP favoured an equal age of consent for straight and gay youth.

These guys give the presenters and editors what they want: they’ll talk about any issue at short notice, they’re always on call, they don’t get bogged down in detail, they’re very forthright in their opinions, you know exactly what they’re going to say, and, most importantly, they’re always against everything and everyone.

They fill a need.

I met a few RCP’ers at Polytechnic in the early eighties and to my jejune sensibilities they were certainly an odd bunch. They all seemed to live together for one thing and the only male revolutionary amonst them wore eyeliner (Sebastian Horsley mated with Che Guevara). The girlie revolutionaries were really attractive though, they always seemed to turn out in a certain sort of ‘foxy fatigues’, which were most alluring, I just regret they didn’t go in for more flirty fishing.

right wing libertarians: no environmental regulation, no workers compensation for industrial injuries.

seriously weird: neo-eugenics, support for ethnic clensing in the Balkans,…fill in the gaps

Oh my God!! I so can’t believe Oliver said Weltanschaung!!!