Harry’s Place

Much as I like 24, I don’t particularily agree with torture. It doesn’t tend to work, for starters. And the risk of the people doing the torturing developing a taste for it, is too great.

Where I do disagree with the article above is the fake outrage it whips up - Intelligence Agencies since the year dot, all of them, have used torture of various types. And they most certainly continue to do so.

As for the Jihadists, summary execution on the battlefield followed by burial in pigskins would have been my much preferred option.

Again, the lesson is clear Take no prisoners.

As Hitch previously said waterboarding *wasn’t* torture, I’m quite impressed that not only did he do this, but that he decisively changed his mind. He couldn’t help but change his mind of course, but it’s still to his credit that he did.

Or not torture them, and develop emphatic skills in interrogation. Like war crimes, torture does not require a base standard of three detatched finger nails.

It’ll be interesting to see Hitchens still portrayed as a house cat or armchair warrior.

I’m not really arguing one way or another about whether waterboarding is torture or not. But surely any terrorist suspect now knows all about the mock drowning, and that all they have to do is hold their breath and thrash around alot to make it look as if they are about to expire.

David Blaine just recently held his breath underwater for a very large count of time; setting a new world record. And he did it willingly :-)

Agree with Morgoth here:

“Where I do disagree with the article above is the fake outrage it whips up - Intelligence Agencies since the year dot, all of them, have used torture of various types. And they most certainly continue to do so.”

I found the Economist’s article somewhat glib.

e.g. “[T]here is a line which democracies cross at their peril: threatening or inflicting actual bodily harm”

Colonialism and the brutality of decolonisation conflicts (e.g. Boer War, French Algeria, Indochina, British in Malaysia) makes it clear enough that torture or at least complicity (through proxies, e.g. US intervention in Salvador in the 80s) has co-existed with many democracies since their very inception.

Obviously no comparison with the degree to which authoritarian states have and will employ torture, but to pretend that some ‘taboo’ is only in danger of being shattered by US policy *now* during the War on Terror, is to maintain the myth that this taboo ever succeeded in comprehensively tying the hands of state activities behind closed doors. A more honest and condemnatory disavowal of immoral practices past and present would make us more vigilant to their resurgence, and do more to make us more certain that we are better than our enemies.

mesquito: out of interest would you want the ‘take no prisoners’ approach applied to individuals whose suspected involvement in terrorist activities is unproven? to be safe? i.e. the imperatives of security and the war on terror are enough to legitimate such a strategy?

and morgoth re: the pigskins ‘joke’ - offensive to all muslims not just Islamists. but hey i guess we should just lighten up and share the hilarity

One more thing:

“America chose torture”

Is that a fair statement? Sounds alot like the dodgy semantics used on CIF blaming the whole country for the actions of their president and VP. Clearly many, if not the majority view in the US is that waterbparding is torture and should not be used. One of the strongest and most vociferous opponents has been McCain.

Blaming America as David T has done, is akin to blaming the all the UK because some stupid judge allows terrorist out on bail. Did the UK chose terrorism? No of course not. I expect better from you David :-)

and morgoth re: the pigskins ‘joke’ - offensive to all muslims not just Islamists. but hey i guess we should just lighten up and share the hilarity

Its not a joke. It is about using their own cultural and religious weaknesses against terrorists, who happen to have a morbid fear/phobia of pigs. One could forsee using a similar tactic against Jainist terrorists, were there were any.

As for claims of offense unless anti-pursuant to the policies of this blog, I have to respond in the fashion of Stephen Fry: “You’re offended? So fucking what?”

Hitchens major is a mensch.

…but to pretend that some ‘taboo’ is only in danger of being shattered by US policy *now* during the War on Terror, is to maintain the myth that this taboo ever succeeded in comprehensively tying the hands of state activities behind closed doors.

The Economist article is defensible. They aren’t claiming that to use torture in this case is to cross a threshold. Rather, a democracy formally and openly permitting torture is what’s being argued against. And surely that’s correct?

What shook me was how quick he went, three spills of water, and his panic button was pressed. Imagine yourself on that board (it was very interesting to see it) being watered. panicking, being relieved, temporarilly, and then subjected again, and again, and again. Also, I noted how he claims there is an element of trauma that still lurks in him from that mild exposure to teh situation.

Also, you can emphasise how part of it is the disempowering element, you are in their hands, they have control of your body, not you.

I’m not a Hitch fan, but this is entirely laudible, and very enlightening.

I’m not a Hitch fan, but this is entirely laudible, and very enlightening.

Absolutely. All credit to him for being brave enough to try this.

I don’t see why it is relevent that other countries have used torture in the past. The fact is that the use of torture is taboo now. There is nothing wrong with recognising and acknowledging our misdeeds in the past but we should be proud of the fact that we have moved on since then and be vigilant against slipping backwards.

Actually, it is not just America that legalises torture. Europe does as well. Just this week, in fact.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/06/germany-police-torture-threats-did-not.php

“As Hitch previously said waterboarding *wasn’t* torture”

I am pretty sure that he has never made this claim but would appreciate a link, if I am wrong. A lot of Hitch’s opponents have put it about that he is pro-torture, or ‘objectively pro-torture’, but I have never seen anything to support that.

I think torture works, and I am also against it. I don’t see why these views are incompatible.

Depends what you mean by torture ‘working’ though, doesn’t it? You’ll get people to talk, but the information’s not always reliable. To quote Hitchens:

” It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.”

It’s only ever been used on a handful of the worst of the worst - the guys who planned 9/11 itself and would have killed thousands more. And Hitchens.

Some prissy, flabby, never-bled-a-drop-in-his-pampered-life Brit collapses in tee-tee time and that proves waterboarding is torture? Hitchens would be a fair judge of when some rhetorical pillow fight has gone too far, but…

It is an interesting and fair question, though, if waterboarding qualifies as torture, but you’d need to get the answer from tough people, people who have been trained to resist captors and pain. It won’t be their first rodeo.

The Economist makes a point when it says: ” [T]here is a line which democracies cross at their peril: threatening or inflicting actual bodily harm.” But that is not the only line whose crossing causes a democracy peril.

In the ticking time-bomb scenario with some sort of WMD, you also cross a line when, instead of pulling out all the stops, you allow a city to be annililated, or a city a day, or ten cities at once, or ten a day. Step the scenario back a step, to a large school as in Beslan or ten schools…

So we live in between lines.

From moment to moment that line, like a lot of borders, can move around some.

Mesquito–It’s not true that we shouldn’t take prisoners. Everyone should. The army isn’t a gang. I’ve been in a gang and I’ve been in an army at war. The army is better.

Morgoth–I’m not with you on summary battlefield executions, but Gen. Pershing did the pigskin thing in the Phillipines. It’s a great idea to offend them. If these people exist, you may as well fuck with them. A fortiori those who would spare their feelings…

I’d consider going beyond pigs, yea verily, even to the point of using puppies..

Beijing Ahoy.
Waterboarding as an Olympic sport - Endurance category.
Gold medal winners - The Republic of Guantanamo Bay.

But joking aside. The Bush admin. did a cost / benefit analysis with WB and once again came up short.

BTW : I’m all for wrapping terrorists in the fat of whatever animal stops them getting laid by cloud women.

David Blaine is a professional showman, he trains extremely hard for his stunts. I don’t think the average jihadist would have the discipline or time to put the effort in to learn to hold his breath for a very long time. Anyway, however long you hold your breath for, you still have to exhale and inhale at some point. I am sure it is torture, one of the reasons I don’t like going swimming is not only is it wet and cold, but the water goes up your nose and makes you splutter and even sick. On a more theoretical point, the American legal system intrigues me. It’s like our own but different. Because they split away from England in the seventeenth century, they have evolved in a different direction, it seems to me. One often reads about legal judgments or cases in America, where they have taken quite a different approach, especially with child abuse cases. There does seem to be a brutalism in Americans that isn’t so prevalent in England. Yes, we have bullying in the army or prisons, but (from what I know) not to the same degree. Abu Ghraid was an American disgrace. The British Army has had one or two scandals, recently the case of a hotel worker who was wrongfully killed by some British soldiers, but the American army is constantly being caught out raping and massacring. (Don’t forget My Lai from a previous war!). Leaving aside any moral questions, it’s so counter-productive, it doesn’t assure ordinary Muslims/Iraqis that the Americans are their friends.

but the American army is constantly being caught out raping and massacring.

Constantly?

A lot of Hitch’s opponents have put it about that he is pro-torture, or ‘objectively pro-torture’, but I have never seen anything to support that.

Well the article features him arranging for someone to be tortured. ;-)

“Depends what you mean by torture ‘working’ though, doesn’t it? You’ll get people to talk, but the information’s not always reliable.”

That’s true, but it is true of any interrogation technique. I think torture does work, especially if it is skilfully used. Personally, I cannot imagine witholding much information after being shown the instruments. That does not mean it should be legal, of course.

but the American army is constantly being caught out raping and massacring.

Constantly?

Constantly, occasionally, allegedly, imaginary, whateverly, so long as they’re depicted as hypocritical monsters that’s fine.

My Lai was an atrocious event, in which the American military found some redemption in the form of Hugh Thompson and crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson%2C_Jr.

Did Hitchens support waterboarding?

This is the Guardian’s take on it:

“Late last year, the writer, polemicist and fierce proponent of the US-led invasion of Iraq Christopher Hitchens attempted, in a piece for the online magazine Slate, to draw a distinction between what he called techniques of “extreme interrogation” and “outright torture”.

From this, his foes inferred that since it was Hitchens’ belief that America did not stoop to the latter, the practice of waterboarding - known to be perpetrated by US forces against certain “high-value clients” in Iraq and elsewhere - must fall under the former heading.”

http://tinyurl.com/4vssof

So the answer is:

- Hitchens did not support torture
- He did support “extreme interrogation” falling short of torture
- He made no statement about whether waterboarding was torture or not
- He has now experienced waterboarding, and categorically states that it is torture.

There does seem to be a brutalism in Americans

Odd thing for a European to say, considering Europeans spent half of the last century slaughtering each other by the tens of millions.

Sue R,

“There does seem to be a brutalism in Americans that isn’t so prevalent in England.”

That really is complete rubbish and so typical of the British chattering classes sense of moral superiority. How exactly do you come to that conclusion? London is now more dangerous than NY for getting stabbed over nothing. I suppose all those lovely knife kilers in the Uk are just misunderstood but not brutal like those awful Americans right?

Give me the US system anyday where they actually punish dangerous and violent criminals instead of some fuckwit judge letting them out on bail to carry on killing and raping. Or howabout the lovely Brit the Americans just locked up for shooting his brutal American wife and son. Of course it could not be his fault because he is a dove-like Brit.

In fact nowadays we have to count on the US justice system to lock up the pilfering fraud committed by a string of UK businessmen. I love how the Brits go to the US, commit crimes and then cry about the Yanks coming after them. Is that brutal? No its fucking justice and we need more of it over here.

We Brits only really have the luxury of whingeing about practices like water-boarding because we leave it up to the Americans to protect us and to sort out Al Qaeda. If the Yanks were as supine, hypocritical and unwilling to commit to the effort to overcome global terrorist threats as our European “partners” are, it would all be left to us and we would have had to build our own Guantanamo Bay, no doubt a few miles from Port Stanley.

“Actually, it is not just America that legalises torture. Europe does as well. Just this week, in fact.”

Didnt actually read the article, did you?

“Odd thing for a European to say, considering Europeans spent half of the last century slaughtering each other by the tens of millions.”

Americans spent the previous century slaughtering millions of indigenous inhabitents. And to be fair some of the people involved in the European slaughtering were fighting back. And American was involved in both slaughters, if all participents are to be blamed equally(after someone sank their ships, or battle ships)

- Hitchens did not support torture
- He did support “extreme interrogation” falling short of torture
- He made no statement about whether waterboarding was torture or not
- He has now experienced waterboarding, and categorically states that it is torture.

How could one be more principled on this matter? Anyone here who has subtle, fine-grained misgivings about these issues should simply go through this procedure as Hitchens did and report back later.

And why isn’t the UCU boycotting the US?

The US has legalized torture and supports Israel’s imperialism (or if your antisemitic trot reference frame differs slightly, Israel is merely an extension of a greater US imperialist project, i.e. Israel supports the US rather than the other way around.)

What is torture? We normally think of torture as inflicting pain and physically harming someone, but clearly waterboarding need not entail inflicting any harm. In Iran, there is a technique of total sensory deprivation in which a prisoner is dressed in white, held in a white cell, fed white food through a hatch by guards wearing slippers so they don’t make a sound. This drives some inmates crazy, yet no physical harm has come to them. Another technique used in Iran is to hold someone in a cell only a little larger than their body size. A good friend of mine was held in this way during the Shah’s regime and the only way he stayed sane was to jog on the spot for several hours - now in his mid sixties and after decades living in freedom in the US, he still runs five miles every day. He swears that if he had not done this exercise while in prison, he would have been psychologically damaged. But is the method of incarceration torture?

If the Yanks were as supine, hypocritical and unwilling to commit to the effort to overcome global terrorist threats as our European “partners” are…

I hear that! Nothing the self-righteous Guardianistas like doing more than standing by the side-lines bitching about the morals and actions of those actually in harm’s way.

The US may not get everything right but thank God it does something. The thought of having to rely on Brussels to preserve my liberty chills me to my bones…

Not that I am a Pilger fan, of course, but if true, the sort of wide spread torture he outlines in the Guardian today by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian civilians I think is far worse in principle than water boarding a few 9/11 masterminds.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/israelandthepalestinians.civilliberties

Eugene,

“Americans spent the previous century slaughtering millions of indigenous inhabitents”

Hello? But those were European-Americans. Most of those people racing out to the wild west and ethnically cleansing Indians were actually European immigrants themselves. And a hell of alot of them were Anglos.

If we add up all the murder and mayhem in the last few hundred years the Europeans are top of the shit pile; so the idea that Americans are espcially brutal is laughable coming from the real experts in mass murder and genocide.

Eugene;

As I recall, both world wars (and a genocide or two) were authored by Europeans.

You should also review the fact that most of the native people of the Americas died from diseases caught from the Europeans, not by intentional slaughter. Often the diseases spread from tribe to tribe without the natives ever having come into contact with a single European.

Europeans/Americans didn’t really understand about microorganisms and their role in disease transmission until the 19th century.

What is torture? We normally think of torture as inflicting pain and physically harming someone

Who says that? Inflicting severe psychological distress - mock executions, for example - would count as torture.

Another technique used in Iran is to hold someone in a cell only a little larger than their body size. A good friend of mine was held in this way during the Shah’s regime and the only way he stayed sane was to jog on the spot for several hours - now in his mid sixties and after decades living in freedom in the US, he still runs five miles every day. He swears that if he had not done this exercise while in prison, he would have been psychologically damaged. But is the method of incarceration torture?

Yes.

“Hello? But those were European-Americans. Most of those people racing out to the wild west and ethnically cleansing Indians were actually European immigrants themselves. And a hell of alot of them were Anglos.”

What’s that got to do with present day Yurups? People who stayed in Europe, stayed in Europe. The ancestors of the inhabitants of present day Europe had no part in the slaughter in the US - which was a series of genocides. it was the American State which conquered the West, the British Empire conquered the original colonies ( about 10% of the present day empire), which was an illegitimate claim. Manifest destiny was imperialism. And, Im not Anglo.

“As I recall, both world wars (and a genocide or two) were authored by Europeans.”

The Japanese got involved in the second one, some would stay started it. Not note: Asians. These weasel words - the Europeans - hide who is invading whom, and who is defending themselves.

Mike, Pilger and Truth are as different from each other as Day is from Night.

People who stayed in Europe, stayed in Europe. The ancestors of the inhabitants of present day Europe had no part in the slaughter in the US

Someone here thinks he’s Rowan Williams. Their progeny took part in the slaughters of the 20th Century. I think the common theme here is that there’s a barbarism in *humans*. It’s humans who start wars and slaughter populations.

What are you looking at, sugar tits?

Is there any point in this competition to see who has/had the least morally corrupt empire or who started the war?

If you dont want to be waterboarded spill the fucking bean’s, It realy is THAT simple.

Or how about treating them like a fellow muslim would, I’m sure they wouldnt be harmed in nice muslim countrys like Saudi Arabia or Yemen, This kind of wimpiness only confirms the islamist view that westerners are a bunch of pussys who they can dominate.

Personally speaking i’d waterboard them with pig flavored beer.

I’m amazed that Hitchens heart didn’t explode during that, considering his age and drink and alcohol ravaged body.

It’s amazing how simple and efficient waterboarding is.

Morgoth, I don’t agree with you on summary executions, but I think the idea of burying jihadis in pigskin is a great one. I think the remains of suicide bombers should be ritually fed to pigs, or smeared with dogshit. I’m surprised nobody has experimented doing this since 1902.

Note: To self-rightous idiots like Sue R. How about British massacres like Armistar and Bloody Sunday? We Yanks have learned much from Britain, mostly good, but also some bad. See Ireland (”to Hell or Connaught”) as model of Imperial Conquest and Control for both countries as example of latter. America is after all Albion’s Seed.

About Israel. I do not excuse when Israel has been wrong such as in invading Lebanon in 1982 or in building settlements in middle of the West Bank. Nor do I excuse when their police, soldiers and settlers brutalize Palestinian civilians. However can anybody who honestly knows British & American History doubt that if Britain or America were in Israel’s place we would have by now driven most Palestinians off the West Bank and would be building a nice straight barrier Wall along the Jordan River, and perhaps firebombed the Gaza Strip as well

Hundreds of years ago, yes, but certainly not these days. Britain has long given up her empire.

Look at how we dealt with Northern Ireland.

Eugene

The ancestors of the inhabitants of present day Europe had no part in the slaughter in the US - which was a series of genocides

Care to provide some specifics about these phantom serial genocides?

Not much of a torture if he volunteered to receive it.

Maybe next time he will try some real man-up torture like sitting in a bucket of water and having his gonads electrified or maybe having a few finger nails pulled, or possibly he might like to try the favorite of the Iraqi street, off product uses for household power tools.

Perhaps TheGrandMufti should volunteer to be waterboarded if he thinks its no big deal

I’m sure somebody else posted this a while ago but seems relevant -

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/jscope/arrigo03.htm

Plus I recall a link to an interview with a counter intelligence officer with Mossad who stated that he could break suspects without violence or even discomfort.

‘If you dont want to be waterboarded spill the fucking bean’s, It realy is THAT simple’ - What about those in acute bean poverty? Dunking the witch gains you whatever you so wish, just not neccesarily the truth.

Ps. Can we agree that both the UK and USA were not founded on buttercups and puppies, but in part by war, ethnic cleansing, ruthless class exploitation and bigotry?

I read some of the posts and I think it is a great site. Yes, you read that right… penis extender cialis levitra That more Lots more.

So they waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Like I care. Like I give a flying one. Jeez. I would have done much worse to the cunt. He would have ate his own genitals and said they tasted lovely because next stop would have been the eyes.

Good post.

First, let me say that I oppose torture and agree with what social republican says about it being both unnecessary and unlikely to gain useful information since the person being tortured will say anything and indict anybody in order to stop the pain. (My crack is that nobody’s brother-in-law would be safe!) Professional terrorists/guerillas/gunmen might well have a story agreed on in advance to tell after supposedly breaking under torture in order to mislead their enemy. As for the “ticking bomb” theory much beloved by fans of “24″ and similar mucho fanastyies, that almost never occurs in real life and is used mostly as an excuse to torture.

Second: Mike, Dresden, Hamburg and the RAF area bombing campaign of German cities was a little more then 60 years ago. As for Northern Ireland, even the most murderous IRA terrorist only wanted Britain out of Northern Ireland. They did not want Britain out of Britain as the Palestinians want all Israeli Jews to leave Israel.

Third: Christopher Hitchens deserves praise for demonstrating what water boarding means and he is right that if you say water boarding is not torture then you are saying there is no such thing as torture. And this is not all that Hitchens has been up to. He is also sponsering sending books to Iraq. See “Book Drive for Iraq: How You Can Do Your Bit to Build Democracy” at http://www.slate.com/id/2194308 posted June 30, 2008.
Hat tip to Iraqi Mojo at http://www.iraqimojo.blogspot.com

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