Harry’s Place

Personally, David. I prefer to call them a bunch of ragheads. But then I’m a libertarian.

what about “neo-con zionist jew extremist”?

No, Flanker, try

‘well-funded warmonger neo-con imperialist jew zionist extremist’

Much more concise.

I wouldn’t be too worried if I were you, David.

Hizb ut Tahrir (sp?) threatened our former MP with legal action when she told a few home truths about them (in the context of our local Council being daft enough to let them use Council premises for free) but nothing came of it.

They’ll just hope everyone will forget about it.

I’m grateful that they’re not threatening to murder me.

That is what Hamas usually to do their opponents.

“Personally, David. I prefer to call them a bunch of ragheads. But then I’m a libertarian.”

You do, do you?

Are you proud of calling people “ragheads”? You think that’s a pleasant thing to do? You think this reflects well on you, do you?

I wasn’t aware that libertarians were in the habit of refering to groups of people in the most insulting terms they can come up with. I thought libertarians were keen on individuals, and autonomy and things like that.

Why do non-Muslim extremists and terrorists not have to be reported? Give me a break.

xeno:

Just off the top of my head, I’d say it’s because non-Muslim extremists are less likely to blow themselves up on commuter trains, transatlantic flights, in nightclubs or outside airports.

There are exceptions to that. Copeland and the white supremacist shithead that was recently imprisoned for storing terrorist material under his bed. But those are exceptions. And I imagine the police generally think it’s standing order to report white supremacist extremists who show violent inclinations.

I wonder: will the British Muslim Initiative be suing Al Jazeera if the error is proved to be theirs? (Unless a retraction is published of course.) This is assuming there was an error of course, which I doubt. But I also doubt that Al Jazeera would admit to fanning the flames of Jewish-Muslim antipathy (intentionally or accidentally) *or* that the British Muslim Initiative would choose to make an enemy out of Al Jazeera. So it looks like this will probably go down the memory hole.

xeno - Why do non-Muslim extremists and terrorists not have to be reported? Give me a break.

That’s a totally separate google ad word campaign.

I thought libertarians were keen on individuals, and autonomy and things like that.

They can be keen on groups too, just not on being forced or coerced to act collectively.

They are not, or shouldn’t be, prone to using racist epithets - a form of enforced collectivisation, really. But then, there are all sorts of people calling themselves libertarian now - monarchist Tories, for instance. I’ve started self-identifying with classical liberalism instead, in response.

I like the Counting Cats blog where NickM posts, and hope he was being in some way ironic.

I wasn’t aware that libertarians were in the habit of refering to groups of people in the most insulting terms they can come up with.

They’re not. Nor do they use racist or sectarian ephiphets, as person above has done.

Well, David T, you are “pure evil” and therefore fair game for the forces of light and Divine Reason that the British Muslim Initiative incarnates. After all this type has promoted “community relations” unspecified of what type, but let it go), and “cultural dialogue” (whether of the deaf of the hard of hearing is not detailed either0.

Re the tosser who uses the word ‘rag-head’. The best, and I really mean the best, literary insight into the whole Islamist crew, the murderous bigotry of many (not all it’s true) of them, the vicious state oppression in many countries by quasi (or full) dictatorships, the bloody consequences of Western intervention in Iraq, the complications that exist in Israel (hostile to the state, but no complacacy towards anti-Semitism whatsoever, and in fact one the greatest humanist writers of today, is a ‘rag-head’. Pen-name: Yasmina Khadra.

“Well, David T, you are “pure evil” and therefore fair game for the forces of light and Divine Reason that the British Muslim Initiative incarnates.”

I am not “pure evil”. I am “pure lobby”. They were misquoted.

I’m astonished the Met. used the phrase “Islamic Extremist”. I would have thought they are so P.C. these days that it would have had to be “Religious Extremist”.

Mind you they probably thought that that term is broad enough to encompass members of the CofE who believe in God.

ChrisC: I think the correct term is Misunderstander of Islam.

“…they probably thought that that term is broad enough to encompass members of the CofE who believe in God.”

There still are some, then…?

Where do you want your break xeno?

Why do non-Muslim extremists and terrorists not have to be reported? Give me a break.

Possibly because the militant wing of the Methodist Church has killed like how many in the last 100 years?

No, Peter, I was not being that ironic. Islam is plain evil and I just call it how I see it.

Nick, “ragheads” is a term for Arabs - Christian, Muslim or whatever. It’s a straightforwardly racist term, and has no place in any civilised dialogue.

Substituting an epithet that is specific to Muslims would not help. The biggest victims of Islam are Muslims - you could ask gay men or rape victims, and political dissidents and democrats, in Iran about this.

Why am I arguing about this? It’s obvious and if reasoning was going to help, it would have helped in the first place.

Nick M: “Islam is plain evil and I just call it how I see it.”

It should be self-evident that this is a racist comment, well beyond the the line that separates criticism and demonization.

Apart from this, is there anyone here shocked by this appeal to public denunciation? Is it really to be praised that the MET is calling on us to spy on our family, friend, neighbors and report “suspicion”, not of terrorism, but of “extremism”?

Call to the public to become an auxiliary to the police can be justified in some specific space and time-limited circumstances. This is clearly not the case here.

I’m not shocked by the Police’s intelligence gathering. I look to the Police to protect me in some way from violent death and robbery. That involves intelligence gathering. I think people who want to understand what ‘extremism’ means, those that seek to play semantics probably have another agenda. I’ve always believed that politics should be conducted in the open, not plotting in darkened corners, it is only by allowing the people to paticipate in political change that it happens. We all have a duty to efach other not to wantonly destroy life. Not by scheming to blow up law abiding citizens. Perhaps Rapha could explain why s/he finds the concept of social responsibilty so shocking?

If Islam is evil is a racist comment, and i don’t see how it can be given yawn that islam is a RELIGION yawn yawn, How about the phrase Islam is a load of old shite.

I am not shocked by the concept of social responsability (where did you read that in my comment?) nor do I play semantics.

Is denunciation based on “suspicion” of “extremism” part of social responsability? The response depends on what you, or more precisely, any reader of the Google ad, will put behind these words. Here, I am not playing semantics.

If I witness a crime, or have indications that someone is preparing a crime, it is, no doubt part of my responsability to contact the police. If my neighbor is beating his wife, it is too.

If I were to think, like Nick M, that Islam is evil, and if, in addition, I had a Muslim neighbor, then the ad could well incite me to an act of denunciation based on, let’s say, not very much. That way, the ad could well encourage what are effectively racist denunciations.

The second problematic aspect of denunciation is whether it is a limited tool used in specific cases, or if it becomes part of a culture of surveillance and societal control. The latter is a hallmark of totalitarian societies (note that I am NOT saying nor thinking nor suggesting that the UK is a totalitarian society).

Finally note that there is a difference between intelligence gathering and denunciations. The latter is only one of the methods and it should not be encourage too lightly.

Yes, I think the label is not a good one. Would socialists be happy with
“Socialist extremists? Know any? Let us know…”

No, we need the emphasis on violence. My ad would say:

“Violent Jihad. Do you know anyone who is supporting violent Jihad against anyone in this country or abroad.”

Phil: “If Islam is evil is a racist comment, and i don’t see how it can be given yawn that islam is a RELIGION yawn yawn”

What about:
“Racism does not exist because RACES do not exist; yawn.”

“This is not antisemitic because Arabs are semites as well; yawn.”

“If “Zionism is multi-headed headed monster” is a racist comment, and i don’t see how it can be given yawn that zionism is an IDEOLOGY yawn yawn”

etc, standard weavers to any accusations of racism, not very convincing.

Criticize Islam as much as you like, preferably in an educated way by referring to its various school of thoughts rather than through an uncaring wide brush argument susceptible to (designed to?) cause offense to anyone who identify himself/herself as Muslim. I don’t mind and would probably agree with most of it.

what a load of old bollocks

I do wish that Nick M would take his compatriots and fuck off to Little Green Footballs or the nearest BNP forum, because that’s his moronic mentality

No, Flanker, try

jew

Much more concise.

In regards to the statistical advantages of “profiling” Moslems anti-terrorist-wise I would quote the 1930’s mis en scene observer of NYC goings on and sporting events, Damon Runyon: “The race does not always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong–but that’s the way to bet.”

I don’t think the profile outline is very clear. What are you meant to look out for?
If suspect has a hook like Abu Hamza? If suspect carries NK signs as Shabbos Goy?
Can anyone clear it up for me?

I might give the line a call.

Nark!

i imagine the signs to look for are consulting jehadist websites during work time, lecturing the local cornershop about selling alcohol, lurking, a sudden interst in outdoor pursuits when none had existed before, buying loads of hydrogen peroxide or fertilizer. I agree the plods have got the terminolgy wrong, but we all know what they mean. As for Gregg, it’s up to his conscience if an explosion takes place creating widows, widowers and ophans, and he could have prevented it. By what right would he then be able to claim the protection of society for himself?

“Islam is plain evil and I just call it how I see it.”

Is in no way shape or form racist. Islam is a belief system. It is one that apparently applies to everyone being a universalist faith. Who exactly am I being racist against? North Africans, South Asians (but not the Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists), white reverts, black reverts, Nigerians, Malaysians. Sheesh!

Equating not liking Islam with racism is just wrong. I don’t like communism either. Does that mean I’m being racist against the Chinese or Russians before 1991? And Rapha, I know a lot about Islam The Qu’ran and the Hadith so basically go fuck yourself. How dare you call me racist you pignorant bastard.

The ragheads thing was a jibe I said it because David T amused me. “Takfiri jihadi” has about as much chance of entering the popular consciousness as the works of Spinoza. If the cops advertised for that they’d get endless calls from jokers who thought it amusing to report a bad kebab (ignoring the fact that the fifteen pints of Carling might have also contributed to their being in the Arena of the Unwell).

I was also in a certain zone because elsewhere I had just posted a defence of Huck Finn against charges of racism (actually not being PC which is not the same thing). HF uses the “N” word so is beyond the pale. That it is partly the story of two white kids helping a black man escape from slavery and learning along the way that Jim’s a decent guy obviously escapes poe-faced tossers like Rapha. Or modernity.

The BNP, modernity? Now why would I wanna hang with a bunch of socialists like them? I’m an individualist, a libertarian and I dislike Islam. Is that so fucking difficult to grasp? I no more want the dictatorship of the Ummah than that of the proletariat or cunts like Rapha or modernity.

Nick M, look I agree with this statement “Islam is plain evil and I just call it how I see it.” but I would never call them ragheads. I too have looked at the Quran, hadiths etc. in detail too and believe me you destroy your message by using ragheads, please do not do it.

Rapha, you misunderstand how the majority of people thing, I see Islam as and evil ideology, but that does not mean that I see all Muslims as evil, after all many are still calling themselves Muslims because if they actually make the step of walking away from Islam they could killed, beaten up or ostracised.

I was told by one Muslim who I was debating two days ago, that only 20% of Muslims were Arabs, so I thanked him for confirmation that criticising Islam was not racist.

Now your rather sad attempt to try to make a point with “Racism does not exist beause Races do not exist” is one of the most pathetic arguments I have seen in my many years of debating on the net. I could debunk the next part of your post but you would still be stupid afterwards and I would have wasted a couple of minutes for no gain.

I used that term, “Ragheads” because (a) I’ve had a fucking ’nuff of blokes with tea-towels on their heads telling me how to live or fucking else and (b) I’m not even gonna entertain the idea that my Islamophobia (Islamonausea more like) is racist and (c)…

Why can’t I be flippant? Well why not? I am flippant. It’s my schtick. It’s what I fucking do. I’ll tell you who weakens their arguments. Not me pal. The Islamicists weaken their arguments when they trot out the “racist” crap. The fact I might call ‘em what I fucking want to call them for rhetorical purpose (and because I think PC is something you keep under the desk with an AMD-64 in it, not something that you take fucking orders from) does not harm my point because, babe, I don’t care. They are still fucking ragheads who keep their birds in bin-liners. That this is done because some cunt 1400 years ago claimed it was divine and then fucked a nine-year-old, matters not a jot to me.

I was not being racist. I was calling David T for his ludicrous taxonomy of terrorists. They’re Islamic, David, simple as. It says so in their book. You know the one dictated by the peadophile? Rapha and modernity (fucking misnomer) can though just go fuck off.

Nick M, being flippant like that can be used against us, and I count you as one of us, Islamoaware. Yes they do lose the argument when they use this racist crap, but we lose it if you start it with a comment that can easily pigeon-hole you as racist. I understand your anger and frustration, been there, see it and done it, but your better off letting them lose their rag then losing yours.

David T is on the left and was is heavily involved in anti-racism, that he is actually taking on the Islamists is a good thing, I can assure you that this is progress, but this site is what I would call the sensible European left and it seems to be getting bigger.

I know whats in the Quran, I started looking in detail at Islam in 1997.

One of the biggest issues in warning people about Islam is being called a racist or an extremist which turns people off, the ones that have been entrapped within the PC fog, the racist does not work anymore frankly unless you give them easy ammunition like you did earlier, extremist does because by reading the Quran and hadiths you can’t help but become extremely concerned about Islam and it can become an obsession because its that bloody scary, especially if your a European…

I apologise for preaching at you, but I have been warning people about Islam since 1999. I have added your blog to my faavourites and will comment there if you don’t mind. I had a run in with modernity when I posted here before under another name, while Rapha is a bit of a loon. All the best, David

Nick M: Where’s your piece on Huck Finn published?

Click my name Sue R. Just click my name. Seriously I’m not attempting to use HP as a whipping boy. The truth is that I see where you lot come from and the reason I comment here, and the reason I have you on my blog-roll, is that I see you as the loyal opposition to my libertarianism.

Nick M, I am also a commentator, but in spurts over the years and with different names though I am going to stick with this one from now on, I like this site because it has an alternative view to my own and I think it helps me clarify things a bit more. In truth I find it healthy to test my belief that Islam is a evil faith, it also helps to make the difference between Islam, Islamists and Muslims, especially those that are Muslim in name only. This site has made me a bit less black and white and I am trying to look at how those secular Muslims must feel.

Secular Muslims?

Isn’t that an oxymoron?

WTF does that mean? Does that make me a secular Christian?

Secular Muslim is someone who does not believe in Allah or Mohammed but dos so only so as not to suffer social exclusion. If it was a sane religion he or she would of course not identify herself as a Muslim. So its really an ex-Muslim, but playing along for an easy life.

Any government agency charged with controlling crime needs the cooperation of citizens to alert them to situations they need to know of. It is the prerogative of such agencies as the police to decide if an action should be taken. In the US we call it a TIP, otherwise one could subscribe to the Philadelphia plan of DON’T SNITCH.

field @ 3 July 2008, 6:16 pm

I think there is something you and I have agreed on.

And I’ve just finished reading “The Islamist” by Ed Husain, even though I bought I back in September. Very interesting too.