Harry’s Place

Funny, I thought Charlie Marx was the feller who wasn’t keen on peasants - with their rural idiocy, and lack of collective thought. I don’t see how any support for Hamas would bring about communism.

As a side note, me and a comrade managed to stop a proposal by our Unison branch to get a poster exhibition from the Palestine SolidarityCampaign - and one member did mention the hamas regime as a reason not to be suppotrive: there is sense out there.

Bob Marley may have considered Haile Selasse to be both a god and alive: when he was clearly neither.

However, he did not devote his life to killing civilians.

An appalling point of view. Of course there needs to be a just two state solution but backing Hamas and other terrorist organisations is probably the worst way to try to achieve it.

Also this shows just how far the infection of antisemitism masquarading as anti zionism has permeated the UK Left.

It was the growth of the SWP antisemitism that finally made me decide that I will NEVER align myself with activsts who are SWP members nor will I support any of their front groups.

You can’t do right by doing wrong and someone should tell the SWP that.

As a side note, me and a comrade managed to stop a proposal by our Unison branch to get a poster exhibition from the Palestine SolidarityCampaign - and one member did mention the hamas regime as a reason not to be suppotrive: there is sense out there.

Good news. Thanks.

Red Deathy said: “As a side note, me and a comrade managed to stop a proposal by our Unison branch to get a poster exhibition from the Palestine SolidarityCampaign - and one member did mention the hamas regime as a reason not to be suppotrive: there is sense out there.”

Maybe if more ‘normal’ people as opposed to Swappies and other pond life became more active in their union branches then there would no longer be the defacto support for Hamas / PSC and other murky groups.

Personally I do support ME causes but I only support the ones that are bringing Palestinian and Israelis together not the ones that seek to divide them.

I can’t be bothered to read this article. What the SWP thinks about Islamism doesn’t matter that much anymore, as they’re a largely spent force.

Can somebody summarise it for me?

David, closest I can get is “Two legs good, four legs bad”

Isn’t the idiocy of the comments the attempt to compare two hypothetical people of completely different background, education and life experiences against a scale of how ‘progressive’ they are. What are the units of progressivism, I wonder? Litres, fluid oz or is it the ‘prog’, the amount of progressive thought required to raise consciousness by one paragraph of Das Kapital in one second?

Anyway, isn’t this what’s wrong with the po-faced ideologues of the SWP, rather than the anti-war left in general?

My reaction to the most revealing John Molyneux Paragraph:-

and why I cannot be a socialist then.

They do have their funny side

Bizarre row over school days between Glasgow East hopefuls
Jul 7 2008

“Tricia was younger and was a rebellious mod who was often disciplined by the blazer-clad prefect Frances Curran.

What is this? A Max Mosley fantasy?

shame, no SWPers about to defend Molyneux’s weird views?

Where’s JohnG?

David,
Have you seen the thread at Socialist Unity where they are all trying to work out why Galloway is supporting the Labour Party Candidate in Glasgow East?

As I wrote on the ‘fellow travellers’ thread, Molyneux’s paragraph tells you everything you need to know about why SWP et al are institutionally antisemitic.

Say for arguments sake 95% of Jews support Zionism (”even critically”, in any way, in any extent) - then this is how they are to be judged by SWP et al: solely judged & hated & opposed by their attitude to Jews’ right to self-determination: a right that is of course God sent to Jews’ Muslim neighbours.

Dhimmitude. No wonder SWP get on so well with politcial Islamists.

I think that’s a legitimate comment. If you have a ‘liberal’ occupier, then it’s obviously less progressive than a socially conservative person resisting occupation.

You dumbos can’t see out of your box…. Keep plugging away, did you see Iran did some missiles today? How many posts can you get out of that? Maybe Melanie Phillips will link to you? And NICK COHEN?!!! And maybe even OLIVER KAMMMMMM!!!!

I love this place

While trying to publicize this story/recruit a pro linguist to settle matters, I made what I thought was an innocuous comment on the blog “language log”. It was met with the reply below:

Shmuel said,
July 6, 2008 @ 7:14 am

This is off topic, but there are some British antifascists in need of a linguist:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/07/04/legal-threats-from-hamasbritish-muslim-initiative/

Its an interesting story as well.

Stephen Jones said,
July 6, 2008 @ 10:58 am

This is off topic, but there are some British antifascists in need of a linguist:

Who are the anti-fascists? Harry’s Place is the home of a section of Nu-Lab, particularly, the Euston Manifesto Crowd, a collection of neo-cons who disguise themselves as leftists, Oliver Kamm being their most hilarious and nastiest representative. I’d call Tatchell and one or two of the other commentators a true anti-fascist, though he is guilty of the most appalling sloppiness in much of his ‘research’.

And whatever you think of the Israeli government, I wouldn’t consider ‘anti-fascist’ to be a useful description for Hamas, or the British Muslim League

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=324#comments

Where’s Irie when we need him? - “an illiterate, conservative, superstitious Muslim Palestinian peasant who supports Hamas”. Oreintalist shurely??

This bit caught my eye:
‘It is not Muslim religious consciousness that determines the position of women in Muslim society, but the real position of women that shapes Muslim religious beliefs.’

Matt - thats right, because a Zionist is obviously an “occupier”: whereas a Hamas fan is obviously a resister. That’ll be why Iran & Saudi Arabia are so welcoming for Christians, apostates, women, homosexuals, and Marxists.

You couldn’t make it up…

Quite amusing to see the ‘hat tip’ to ‘Darren redstar’. Is he the latest to seek to fill “Harry”’s shoes?

You shot the sheriff, Udham Singh, but you did not shoot the deputy.

Where’s John Wight?

I see that Mr. Molyneux is “a senior lecturer in Historical and Theoretical Studies at the School of Art, Design and Media, University of Portsmouth.”

I must admit, when I first read the sentence in bold, I genuinely thought it was intended as a criticism of the SWP and their friends. Oh well. I suppose it all depends on what you mean by “progressive” and what you are trying to make progress towards.

To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate, conservative, superstitious Maori peasant who supports killing New Zealanders is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist member of the New Zealand SWP.

Is that how it works?

“What is this? A Max Mosley fantasy?”

Thank you - a much needed laugh!

I think Dave Rich has hit the nail on the head. If by “progressive” you mean “progressing” towards an illiberal, undemocratic, one-party state, then the remarks are wholly unsurprising.

PS - Am I the only one here who finds Bob Marley overwhelmingly dull?

David T

As with most undergraduate essays, you can find a summary of the article in the last sentence:

handling correctly the issue of religion, so vital in the present political situation, is not just a matter of ad hoc judgments or tactics, still less of electoral opportunism, but of understanding the most basic ideas of Marxist dialectical materialism.

Which reduces to:

“Sod off Galloway!”

But the real summary can be found in this section:

The notion that America, Britain or any big Western nation could be destroyed, conquered or, indeed, converted by planting bombs on the underground or flying planes into buildings is so utterly absurd that it cannot be the real motive for any sustained campaign. The idea that the US could be induced by a terrorist campaign to stop supporting Israel or to get out of Afghanistan is also mistaken but it is not completely implausible.

Which reminds me only of Paul Berman’s observation that a Marxist is “someone who, no matter what bizarre events take place around the world, will profess not to be surprised…Wisdom consists of the ability to be shocked.”

Israel is a mono-fundamentalist state, same as Iran. So the article writter is lying in his premise.

Second the left is defined by the defense of the little guy in order to achieve equality, here the author’s definition is wrong yet again.

It is no surprise that a single paragraph could define Gene’s philosophy, heck I could have done that in a few words, it is not even a surprise that the article is wrong/stupid, what is surprising is that I get so much joy pointing it out.

To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate, conservative, superstitious Maori peasant who supports killing New Zealanders is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist member of the New Zealand SWP.

Was Sonic ever in the SWP?

Oh yes, and somebody should point out to Molyneux that 9/11 can’t have been intended to force the US out of Afghanistan, unless it was done via a time machine.

Israel is a mono-fundamentalist state, same as Iran.

Flanker - you are a moron.

Does ‘Iron Lion Zion’ make Bob Marley a Zionist?

And, more importantly, if “reactionary religious beliefs” cannot be a basis for socialist “political attitudes” then where does that leave the Israeli settler movement? Or is that yet another case of One Law For the Jews?

“Flanker - you are a moron.”

Maybe I should open a clinic for those hurt by the truth.

How about :

“To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate, conservative, superstitious working class BNP voter who supports killing immigrants is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist member of UK SWP.”

Can some genius explain what the difference is ?

Hal Draper’s ABC of National Liberation Movements is a more discerning - and humane - anti-imperialist:

“We do not give political support simply because an organization or government demonstrates it has mass support. We do not give political support simply because an organization or government is an enemy of our enemy. We certainly do not give political support to a government simply because it is in power or gets into power. We do not give political support to a movement or government simply because it adopts a formal political program that is superficially unobjectionable. We do not give political support to a movement simply because it succeeds in inveigling the support of better political elements than its leadership. We can give political support only on the basis of what we analyze as the real political character and real political program this formation, as in any other case.”

Second the left is defined by the defense of the little guy in order to achieve equality, here the author’s definition is wrong yet again.

Ah but Flanker, in the Middle East, owing to the fact Islam is imperialism, the “little guys” are, in fact, the Christians.

But you could indulge you soft prejudices AND take comfort in the fact they’re also Arab as well!

Which makes me wonder why leftists don’t champion them.

I see that Mr. Molyneux is “a senior lecturer in Historical and Theoretical Studies at the School of Art, Design and Media, University of Portsmouth.”

I’m not surprised.

I’ve always maintained that 80% of the humanities departments should be shut down, and a thorough clean-up done ( if that involves mass firings, then fine) before they’re allowed to reopen.

After all, these are humanities departments and not marxism departments.

This *lecturer*…and as though this needs to be said… is in the business of promoting ignorance, not knowledge

Monsieur Molyneux would make a wonderful proletarian welder or plumber

And he’d contribute to public coffers for a change!

Imagine having to expose the impressionable minds of your college-aged kids to this jackasss?

Does ‘Iron Lion Zion’ make Bob Marley a Zionist?

Don’t know about Bob Marley, but this Rastafarian classic is based on one of the most Zionist passages in the Bible.

“Ah but Flanker, in the Middle East, owing to the fact Islam is imperialism, the “little guys” are, in fact, the Christians.”

Look chump, I don’t want to further elaborate on a concept you cannot grasp, but I will explain for those with an inkiling of objectivity.

With regards to imperialism in the whole ME, the GEOT is the big guy, they occupy Iraq and they have puppet dictators all over the region. The little guy is the people which are being subjugated.

‘If you have a ‘liberal’ occupier, then it’s obviously less progressive than a socially conservative person resisting occupation’.

The relatives of Fatah activists defenestrated in Gaza, the Afghan teachers killed by the Taliban and the civilian victims of suicide bombers in Iraq might beg to differ.

sackcloth - they can differ all they like, but SWP know best and they have the holy texts to prove it.

Don’t know about Bob Marley, but this Rastafarian classic is based on one of the most Zionist passages in the Bible.

What? We don’t even get the Boney M version?

“Does ‘Iron Lion Zion’ make Bob Marley a Zionist?”

Is the benign version of this craziness:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

Well I completely disagree with John Molyneux. His is the type of writing that is basically alien to all but the heavily indoctrinated. I find it literally illegible.

But, just to explain his point, which I disagree with, it is that Hamas represents resistance to occupation whilst Zionism represents (to Molyneux) occupation. Its ridiculously one-dimensional view. I personally think I have more in common with many left-Zionists than with many Hamas supporters. But most Hamas “supporters” are not Hamas ideologues - they voted for Hamas for entirely practical reasons to do with the political situation in Palestine in 2006. Hamas, as such, shouldn’t be supported. However, Palestinian democracy should be.

Maybe I should open a clinic for those hurt by the truth.

There’s certainly no chance you’ll ever be hurt by the truth!

What? We don’t even get the Boney M version?

Shudder.

BTW are non-Americans aware that Boney M are virtually unknown in the US?

But most Hamas “supporters” are not Hamas ideologues - they voted for Hamas for entirely practical reasons to do with the political situation in Palestine in 2006

I’m sure that fact brought a wry smile of irony to the faces of Fatah supporters as they fell to their deaths.

Flanker, the only reason why the Middle East is mainly Arab and Muslim is because the Arabs launched wars against the Christian Roman empire in the West and the Zoroastrian Persian empire in the East. Islam spread first by the sword and then by the serious economic and social restrictions that the Islamic state imposed on non-Muslims. Even today, if a Jew in Iran converts to Islam, he alone will inherit all his Jewish family’s wealth. The little guy you pretend to care for, is not an occupied state or disgruntled or overthrown dictatorship but the average person, someone denied the basic rights you enjoy simply because that person is a woman or non-Muslim or the wrong Muslim. As long as you keep yourself in denial about the iniquities facing the average person in the Islamic world and the Arab world, then you’re stay a clueless fuck. And let’s face it, if you can’t even get South and Central America right - where you apparently live and travel - then how can you possibly claim to know anything about the Middle East? Do you know any Arabic or Persian? Do you know anything about Islam and its variants? Do you know anything about Arab Nationalism? Or do you prefer lecturing on things you haven’t the fuck’s notion of?

BTW are non-Americans aware that Boney M are virtually unknown in the US?

The second twentieth century German invasion succesfully fought off by the Yanks (if only we were so lucky.)

It is an astonishingly perfect summing up of ‘anti-imperialism’ and illustrates perfectly how the SWP (and others) now view fascism as more progressive than liberalism.

Flanker,

defence of the little guy is fine. But why does Palestinian nationalism have to be more legitimate i.e. trump Jewish nationalism?

The liberal atheist critical Zionist is for two states for two peoples with two respective rights of return. The Hamas supporter is for one with as few Jews as possible.

Look at this snide little para.

‘The most notorious example of this is, of course, Christopher Hitchens, who has written a book on religion, God is Not Great (of which more later), and whose trajectory from leftist intellectual and radical critic of the system to “critical” supporter of George Bush has been precipitous and extreme (though in Hitchens’ case one cannot help suspecting that material inducements have played a larger role in his race to the right than any mere theoretical error).

Molyneux - if you think Hitchens is in the pay of the US government, then have the guts to say so, clearly.

With regards to imperialism in the whole ME, the GEOT is the big guy, they occupy Iraq and they have puppet dictators all over the region. The little guy is the people which are being subjugated.

No, dumplin’, in the Middle East islam is the dominant imperialist power, and so ALL religious minorities ( Jews included) are the victims of that dominant imperialism; they are the little guys.

The fact that whole swaths of the Muslim-majority ME are too uncordinated stupid and backward to mount and maintain an effective standing army changes nothing of that. Their awkward and clumsey inability to effectively subjugate the region’s religious minorities in no way distracts from their stated aims.

“Big dreams, but small means” excuses nothing.

Seems to me you gleaned your defective marxism from the likes of Monsieur Molyneux

If the people of the Middle East and central Asia had been predominantly Buddhist or Tibet held oilfields comparable to those of Saudi Arabia or Iraq, we would now be dealing with “Buddhophobia”. Seeping out from the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA and Downing Street, coursing through the sewers of Fox News, CNN, the Sun and the Daily Mail would be the notion that, great religion though it undoubtedly was, there was some underlying and persistent flaw in Buddhism. “Intellectuals” such as Samuel Huntington, Christopher Hitchens and Martin Amis would be on hand to explain that, despite its embrace by naive hippies in the 1960s, Buddhism was an essentially reactionary creed characterised by its deepseated rejection of modernity and Western democratic values, and its fanatical commitment to feudalism, theocracy, misogyny and homophobia

Err… Hitchens does think that about Buddhism, and states so publicly.

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/07/13news.html

So that’s a frankly pathetic attempt to imply some double standards.

Fuck me this is laughable stuff.

Molyneux - if you think Hitchens is in the pay of the US government, then have the guts to say so, clearly.

It’s more likely Molyneux is suggesting that Hitchens’s views are influenced by the “market”– i.e., he can earn more money expressing the views he currently expresses than he can as a radical critic of the system.

Surely Islam is the dominant “mono-fundamentalism” of the middle east rather than “imperialist power”.Or even the “mono-monotheism”,or
“mono-theocratism” or “mono-fundo-islamo-fasco-totalitarianism”.

In fact a whole chapter of ‘God Is Not Great’ (the very book that Molyneux references) is devoted to attacking Buddhism.

“islamo-barbarism”,”antisemo-mysoginism”

Geographic gynae-fascism?

You know it.

Ah. Thanks Gene.

Mark T,

you are not expecting an SWPer, to actually read a book are you?

:)

John Molyneux - what a beardy twat. Talking / writing shit for 20+ years. Surrounded by an ever-dwindling group of admiring sycophants he can boss around at will. Big fish in a small pond syndrome.

Marxists like Molyneux think they know more about what the poor benighted religious peasant wants and is about than the peasant does himself. Its a form of neo-gnosticism in which the enlightened beardy twats of the world are able to pierce through the veil of illusion (i.e. false consciousness) and see the dialectical forces at work, so they can down from the mountain and impart oracular wisdom to their fanatical followers.

I read one Marxist recently arguing that the Marquis de Sade was a pioneering socialist. Which is probably true in a way he didn’t intend if you look at Lenin and Trotsky’s approach to “their morals and ours”. Only difference is that they actually carried it out on a vast scale, whereas all the poor old Marquis got up to was a spot of flagellation and an ill-advised experiment with Spanish fly. Scary.

Maybe I should open a clinic for those hurt by the truth.

Flanker 9 July 2008, 4:27 pm

I don’t know Flanker, is it ethical to start a clinic and be its forst patient?

Marxists like Molyneux think they know more about what the poor benighted religious peasant wants and is about than the peasant does himself. Its a form of neo-gnosticism in which the enlightened beardy twats of the world are able to pierce through the veil of illusion (i.e. false consciousness) and see the dialectical forces at work, so they can down from the mountain and impart oracular wisdom to their fanatical followers.

Very well put!

Hamas, as such, shouldn’t be supported. However, Palestinian democracy should be.
TheIrie 9 July 2008, 4:47 pm

Funnily enough TheIrie, I agree. Palestinian democracy should be supported. However, what you have left unsaid is that supporting democracy does not mean supporting unequivically any regieme that is elected democratically.

Similar to how many leftist feel that it is acceptable to demonize the Adimistration of George Bush, and to advocate for an anti-US policy, while at the same time praising the US democratic institutions, others can support Palestinain Demicracy, while exerting pressure on the Palestinian administration to modify its policies into a more acceptable form.

Of course, one wonders what choices the Palestinian in the street has when supporting the wrong party can result in a experience in gravitey from the top of a tall building.

Part of supporting Palestinian democracy is understanding the democratic principle of separation of powers - namely between legislative, executive and judiciary. Hamas did not win executive elections; it won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. It then launched an undemocratic, violent putsch in order to seize executive powers in Gaza. It has no more democratic right to exercise executive powers in Gaza than do the Israelis, Americans or Azerbaijanis. To compound it, Hamas is now horrendously unpopular in Gaza and there remain no hope of further elections.

If you support Palestinian democracy, you support Abbas’ attempt to reassert authority over Gaza.

‘BTW are non-Americans aware that Boney M are virtually unknown in the US?’

Lucky Yanks.

The morally and intellectually challenged John Molyneaux and SWP quarterly have like minded company. Al Jazeera is now encouraging the twisted, delusional and sociopathic idea that a Palestinian state was already created on March 11, 1978
with the act of murdering Israeli men, women and children on a civilian bus.

Apparently for Al Jazeera, solidarity with Palestinians isn’t about creating a viable independent Palestinian state at all; instead it’s just about murdering Israeli Jews.

“Following are excerpts from a discussion on Palestinian terrorist Dalal Al-Mughrabi, who led the March 11, 1978 coastal road massacre in Israel, in which 35 people were murdered and 71 wounded. The show aired on Al-Jazeera TV on July 5, 2008.

“For The First Time in the History of Revolutions, a Passenger Bus Became a Fully Sovereign Independent Republic… [And] Its First President Was Dalal Al-Mughrabi”

TV host Ghassan bin Jiddo: “Twelve men, led by a woman called Dalal Al-Mughrabi, managed to establish the State of Palestine, after the whole world had denied them their right to do so. They turned a bus en route from Haifa to Tel Aviv, into a temporary capital of the State of Palestine. They raised the white, red, and black flag at the front of the bus, singing, shouting, and dancing like children on a school trip. When the Zionist forces surrounded them - with the help of helicopters - and wanted to storm the bus, they blew up the bus with themselves inside.

“For the first time in the history of revolutions, a passenger bus became a fully sovereign independent republic for four hours. It does not matter how long this Palestinian republic lasted. The only thing that matters is that this republic was established, and that its first president was Dalal Al-Mughrabi.

“Heroism Transcends the Gender Divide… [A Woman] Can Die More Magnificently Than [Men]”

Ghassan bin Jiddo: “Heroism transcends the gender divide. Arab men should realize that they do not have a monopoly over the glory of either life or death. A woman can love much more nobly than they, and she can die more magnificently than they.

“When Dalal Al-Mughrabi decided to realize her true maternal nature, she went to Palestine, just like Maryam, daughter of Omran. There, on the land that gave rise to wheat, olives, and prophets, she reclined against a palm tree, letting ripe dates fall on her. She ate and drank, and she was content. She dreamed of the birds of the Upper Galilee flying above her as she went into labor.

“Five hundred years later, the Palestinians will still visit their mother’s grave, on which orange blossoms will be scattered. In a thousand years, Arab children will read the following story: On March 11, 1978, twelve men and one woman managed to establish a Palestinian republic in a bus. Their republic lasted four hours. It does not matter how long this republic survived. The only thing that matters is that it was established. This is what the great poet Nizar Qabbani said about the great fidaai, the martyr Dalal Al-Mughrabi. We have nothing to add.” […]

“I Want To Salute Husam Dweidat, Hero of the Jerusalem Bulldozer Operation”

Ghassan bin Jiddo: “What made Dalal Al-Mughrabi ready to carry out this operation? Let me ask you outright: Did she realize that this was a suicide operation? Did she go there knowing that she would die, in what we call martyrdom-seeking and others call suicide, or did she go there hoping that she would return?”

PLA Colonel Rashida Al-Mughrabi, sister of Dalal Al-Mughrabi: “We belong to the Islamic nation, which does not accept the killing of oneself. The human soul is precious, and we do not accept killing ourselves. Suicide is unacceptable. This is a matter of principle. However, defending our rights to the point of martyrdom is something we should do.”…

…Former Fatah commander Anis Naqqash: “Let the Arabs know that they should prepare themselves for a new Middle East without Israel or Zionism. Let all the free people in the world know that the decisive battle with Zionism is approaching, and that its sign is this prisoner exchange.”…

…Rashida Al-Mughrabi: “I want to salute all the martyrs, and send a very special salutation - and whoever wants to be mad at me is free… I want to salute Husam Dweidat, the hero of the Jerusalem bulldozer operation. I salute his soul.”

There’s nothing elaborate about it, folks.

Molyneux is just a thick trot.

I thought that Molinó was criticizing the antisemitism of the SWP. Fool of me to think that there are thinking people in that sect.

Fabian,you spinozist idiot!

What is a “spinozist idiot” anyway Fabian?

I am at the moment reading martin gilberts History of Israel, a super book that shows that it is possible to both critisise the policies of the israeli govt. without falling into the exterminism of the ‘anti-zionists’

Mephisto’s neoconized version of history is as usual wrong, it was the west and fatah that staged the coup against the legislative first.

For those still messing up the definitions… there is one side that is powerful the US/west, Israel, Arab dictatorships. The other side is vastly weaker: Iran and the Arab people. It is the former that is almost always invading, bombing and repressing the latter.

The thing is that you are brainwashed to believe you are the weak ones, there is no use explaining that it is YOU that have Nuclear weapons whereas the opposing side does not, you live in a paranoid mental whackjob imagining Islamic caliphates in Europe, Sharia in Britain, or Jews being wiped out. You are sick but I cannot help you.

Mephisto,

give it up with Flanker, you’re wasting your time

Flanker’s morally and politically decrepit, he couldn’t even bring himself to condemn racist attacks on synagogues in Venezuela

So Flanker - you support the theocratic dictatorship of Iran as an example of the “oppressed” we should support then do you ?

Please say yes.