Harry's Place

Yesterday I was leading a workshop at a Limmud day event, the Jewish version of Islam Expo (not!). Another presenter was Edie Friedman. founder and director of the Jewish Council for Racial Equality (JCORE). She was doing what she does admirably, that is advocating for a better attitude and treatment of refugees and asylum seekers.
However, I had seen she was billed to be on the Islam Expo panel with Nihad Awad, Anas Altikriti and Seumas Milne (and Douglas Murray before he pulled out.) I wanted to make sure she was up to speed with recent developments, and was aware of what kind of organisation it was whose platform she was gracing.

She was dismissive of what I was saying. She kept referring to “the newsnight programme which showed up a lot of false accusations about antisemitic books”, as the basis for her scepticism about the allegations I was trying to convey. She said Douglas Murray had backed out because he declared the panel to be biased. I gathered she had a rather low opinion of Murray.
Given the list of people who had backed out, she responded with, well Seamus Milne is still appearing! I said that my views on Milne were unprintable, and then realised I was already late for my workshop, so had no time to ask why she found Murray more objectionable than many of the other luminaries she was happy to appear with.

One informed observer comments: “It would be interesting to know who persuaded the DCLG to adopt such a stupid position. Hazarding a rough guess, perhaps Azhar Ali of the Sufi Muslim Council, a tiny and unrepresentative sect whose primary purpose is to poison relations between the government and mainstream Muslim organisations?”

http://tinyurl.com/6y7v4y

Altikriti said: “It’s quite breathtaking … to ban one of the most prominent Muslim politicians and [stop] him saying what he wishes. [Malik] had been told that among the organisers were people associated with Hamas. This isn’t a Hamas project.”

To translate Altikriti.

Of course some of the directors of Islam Expo are Hamas.
This however is not a Hamas event, as that would be illegal and our bank accounts closed.

Altikriti must be feeling as Abby “bearded Sikhs are out to get me” Jafar and Inayat “Kaa” Bungle started to last year.

Haha.

Yesterday I was leading a workshop

This leaves me filled with dread… I hate the phrasing almost as much as people who use the word toolkit to mean any thing other than the a box full of spanners and screwdrivers.

Seumas Milne seems to have regarded it as a ‘moral victory’ to have politicians pull out of Islam Expo:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/14/islam.communities

“The pretext given was the fact that one of the organisers is suing the neocon website Harry’s Place over a highly inflammatory mistranslation of a comment reported on the al-Jazeera website.”

You’re a ‘neocon’ website…?

workshop: Too true, Stuart. To use the official term in the programme, session, is also open to unfortunate associations and derision, so what to do?

discussion group?

There must be something better though.

Seumas Milne

Simon Hughes resisted the pressure to withdraw) seems to have been an Evening Standard article by the increasingly extreme anti-Islamist campaigner Ed Husain comparing the event to a British National Party rally.

The basis for his absurd claim were the real or imagined links of some of the organisers with Hamas

Given that Seumas commissioned Azzam Tamimi to write many articles for the Guardian when he was Comments editor, perhaps he could tell us whether Tamimis links to Hamas are “real or imagined”

Julia M said:(commenting on Seamus Milne “You’re a ‘neocon’ website…?”

Obviously Mr Milne has never visited a real neocon website. I would say that this site is ‘left of centre with a realist twist’.

Back to the topic of Malik and Timms withdrawing. It gives me concern that the security services didn’t have a word with these politicians and explain the background of the organisers of IslamExpo before they officially accepted their invitations.

Surely with all the money that is pumped into the security services (on both sides of the river ;-) ) someone should at least have warned the poltiicos that the background and previous statements of the organisers could be considered as dodgy. I know the security services cannot involve themselves in issues that are party political but surely some warning to MP’s etc who were invited should have been given?

David and Dave, please can you sue the muppet-master, Milne?

although, Stuart, you don’t want to end up like the maiden aunt in a book I read (P G Wodehouse?) who objected to the vulgar slang her nephew employed, namely the word “boss” for the person in charge of a business, as she would only countenance its original meaning of a circular protuberance ornamenting the centre of a shield.

Seamus Milne’s article is just too hilarious to take seriously. And reading the almost unanimous posts criticisng the plonker is even funnier. I think there is only one positive comment on Milne’s article and guess who its from? Ina…. can you guess?

BBC 5Live stamped on a thread that discussed this by simply linking to The Guardian article and quoting from it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2148564?thread=5664119

Is their Islamist/Hamas infiltration at the BBC?

Maven,

“Is their Islamist/Hamas infiltration at the BBC?”

Infiltration is the wrong word. I think its more a case of Milne types who use the islamists to promote their sick political ideology. Is Milne an Islamist? I doubt it but it doesnt stop him from cosying up to murderers, homophobes, racists etc…

The hard left did the same with the Soviet Union. They always do it because they are fucking losers and have no other friends today but Islamist nutjobs. Just look at the comments page on Milnes article. You really have to look hard to find anyone supportive of his sicko ideas. That at least gives me some faith that even most CIF readers are not totally fucked in the brain.

It’s all about championing the underdog, and on the face of it the Palestinians and Arabs are seen as victims. They probably also recruit a lot of Muslim researchers as well, fo rethnic balance. The Irie would know more about the mindset of such people than myself.

Hamas, winners of the last Palestinian elections

It’s funny how anti-Zionists think that winning an election justifies Hamas’s actions, but not so the actions of the Israeli government (or America’s or Britain’s etc.)

Seumas makes a serious charge against himself.

He seems to be accusing himself of commissioning articles from a contributor linked to Hamas, concealing those links and encouraging the Guardian to pay them.

Parheps he could clear that up.

Now Inayat appears to be accusing HP of inciting racial or religious hatred! This from the CIF thread:
MoveAnyMountain: ‘I notice that you praise this article – which defends the use of libel laws to try to stiffle political expression the Islamists do not like and prevent anyone calling Hamas an anti-Semitic organisation when it obviously is – despite your oft-professed support for free speech. I won’t be able to sleep tonight with shock.’#

Sorry, mate, but free speech in this country does not extend to speech that incites racial or religious hatred (it is against the law) or libel (also against the law). Been in this country long?

real or imagined links of some of the organisers with Hamas

Milne seems to be arguing that it makes no difference whether the links are real or imagined.

Well the Bonekickers episode is classic example of just how bad its gotten at the Beeb. If it had been done the same way and baddies were Muslims imagine the outcry!

Dave,

“Milne seems to be arguing that it makes no difference whether the links are real or imagined.”

Good spot. Seamus is so fucked up he doesn’t even realise the meaning of what he writes. And to think his daddy ran the BBC…unbeleivable. By the way never mention that on CIF cause you will get banned. Seamus is incredibly sensitive to the idea that he only got the Guardian job because daddy had been a BBC big shot. Dont you love these anti-meritocracy nepotists!

Pretty amusing seeing Inayat in the comments section on Milne’s article referring to Ed Husain as a “neo-con apologist”.

What a wanker.

Actually Inayat’s latest comment has been deleted. H must have said something pretty horrendous for the moderators to censor their own writer :-)

Phase one of this battle is over.

The Islamists have been rumbled, their front organisation forming strategy has failed.

The only people still allied with them are the extreme left, and the Hay on Wye types.

What they’ll be doing next is anyone’s guess. I’d say:

- building their institutions locally, at community and local government level. Trying to get funding.

- being open about being Hamas/MB or Jamaat: but saying “we’re the moderate Islamists you can do business with. Work with us – we’re the only guys who can stop British Muslims turning to Al Qaeda”.

The battle is far from over.

I do believe the exact quote was:

“Anyone who uses the word workshop who’s not connected with light engineering is a twat.”

(Alexei Sayle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icMP4AlB61I)

Hay on Wye types?
Not all of them, surely?
Although it does call itself “The Guardian Hay Festival”

Is their Islamist/Hamas infiltration at the BBC?
No, well not directly; it’s simply that the BBC is, as broadcast Guardian.

Re Ami’s use of the term ‘workshop’. I think that’s an old Alexis Sayle gag from the 80s. To paraphrase – “Anyone who uses the word ‘workshop’ to mean anything not related to light engineering, is a prat”.

I must admit to being guilty of this too, it’s difficult not too in my field – Project Managment. But I irritate me when I do use it! I’d prefer to use the word ‘indaba‘, and that this became part of the lexicon.

If I read the runes. Especially with Bungle getting a delete post and the feedback against Milne, plus the Malik and Timms pull-out, do I detect that some mainstream actually Get It!?

Are we seeing CiF posters sick of having Islamism and Antisemitism thrown at us. Are the government realising that Islamism and Islamists are the problem and not every-day Muslims?

BTW – catch up on MPAC UK’s vile and libellous attack on Stephen Pollard http://www.spectator.co.uk/stephenpollard/834746/mpacuk-and-its-lies-about-me.thtml

Also get some ‘inside’ here http://theymadeitup.squarespace.com/the-latest-news-and-discussion/2008/7/13/mpac-uk-withdraws-zionazi-slur-against-stepehen-pollard.html

They called him a “ZioNazi bigot”. Are these another group of Islamists (some might add ‘racists’) who need to be tackled?

Milne describes Islam Expo as “an extraordinary celebration of the diversity of Muslim art and culture”

Is it true that no Shia groups are involved?

Anti-sectarianism is the big political project of the next decade.

Everybody gets this, apart from self-hating liberals, and those on the far Left, who prefer fascists to liberals.

“Malik pulls out of Islam Expo” – more accurate would be “Malik is pulled out of Islam Expo”.

Is it true that no Shia groups are involved?

Of course there wouldn’t be, given how IslamExpo is basically a Salafist endeavour, intended for a Salafist audience.

Ami: Malik is pulled out of Islam Expo

I noticed that too, but then the geezer has form displaying, at best, iffy judgment in matters.

Lord Sheikh

Is that his name or just a honourific? Does he have friends called “Sir Baron”, “Lady Dame” and “Reverend Vicar”?

Mind you, there’s a thoroughfare down this neck of the woods called (I kid thee not) “Avenue Road”…

David T Anti-sectarianism is the big political project of the next decade.

And combating this, is made all the more difficult by the precedent set of a state sanctioned superstition, state funded religious schools, The Anglican Bishops spiritual in the Lords and the wooly mindedness we find that makes de-facto allies of the Archbishop of Canterbury, conservative minded Tories, rabid Lefties and Islamo-fascists.

I think the idea that the govt had of talking to Islamists was probably taken from the idea that eventually democracies have to talk to some extent to terrorist groups to find out if the genuine reasons for a situation spiralling into terrorism can be rectified and then some sort of peace can be achieved. The blueprint for this is Northern Ireland where those who previously bombed and shot are now respectable legislators.

However, this is not the case with Islamists. They want a world controlled according to the most strict interpretation of Islamic law with no space for dissent and a purely male dominated society. Islamists may give the impression that they are pluralists but they are not.

I think that the govt treating Islamists as honest brokers does a great disservice to the majority of Muslims in the UK some of whom are devout to various degrees and some of whom are not.

The Islamists will not ‘give and take’, neither will they as the Jewish immigrants to the UK in the past did accept that ‘the law of the land is the law’. It seems that whatever concession is made to the Islamists then they will demand more concessions on top of that.

This not only isolates and disenfranchises the more thinking and open minded Muslims amongst us but feeds the lunatics who infest the BBC Speak Your Braines boards and the Daily Mail letters pages who to be quite frank border on the fascist.

IMO I think that what should have been done – and it is still not too late to do so – is to seek out and encourage those Muslim groups that represent progressive Muslims and promote them and work with them to help to build a series of engaged and pluralistic UK Muslim communities that are comfortable with their own position as British Muslims and are also no threat to anyone in the UK.

At the moment the general impression amongst many (outside the intelligensia) is that British Muslims are a bunch of limb chopping woman hating nutters living in the the middle ages. This is obviously not the case and the Muslim community has many different opinions both theologically and culturally.

To only concentrate effort on talking to the Hamas worshippers and other extremists and apologists for extremists risks making life difficult for progressive muslims.

There are analogies in how the Jewish communities engage with mainstream life. There are many who are secular some who are religious to a greater or lesser degree and small numbers of Jews who wish to cut themselves off from mainstream society. However, the Govt listens to a range of Jewish opinion it doesn’t only listen to the Ultra Orthodox which would exclude other opinions.

What the Govt is doing is thinking that they are engaging with majority muslim opinion by talking to some of the apologists for Islamism whilst ignoring an opportunity to build support and engage with progressive muslims.

I will believe they are doing this when they sit down with for example LGBT Muslims and hard line Islamists and tell the Islamists to fuck off if they don’t like the prescence of LGBT Muslims.

Muslims have been here for hundreds of years but it is only with the rise in Islamism that we have started to see an acceptablilty of vicious hatred towards Muslims. Therefore I would go so far as to say that treating with the Islamists who are part of the problem is not going to create a solution to Muslim disengagement with society.

Shahid Malik, the international development minister, was asked by the government to withdraw from speaking at the opening of Islam Expo. He sent his apologies

So he didn’t pull out, but was instead ordered not to attend and responded to that injunction by sending his apologies to I.E. organisers.

That’s not a victory, that’s a very worrisome incident.

If Mr Malik hasn’t enough sense to do so on his own, but was in fact ordered not to speak, then what is he doing in gov’t?

Look, the jackasses organising this are fascist theocrats whose programmes and ideas are to the right of the BNP.

You want an Islam Expo? Ya *really*, *really* wanna know how wonderful the religion of peace is?

Well, there are 57 majority-muslim countries, none of which are true democracies, and practically all of which are human rights hellholes. Pick one, visit it and sample the merciful ‘wares’ Islam offers up to humanity.

Expositions are held to vaunt a culture or a county’s accomplishments. Islam has accomplished nothing for centuries. This expo, then, is but a propaganda attempt to whitewash the utter dearth of dynamism, excellence and achievements characterising almost the entire Islamic world.

The Janjaweed, the Taliban, the Deonbandis, the murderous jihadis, the terror attacks; that is Islam’s expo, those are the fruits of Islam!

Malik is a little shithead. Instead of making the argument for why he was not attending he hedges his bet by claiming it was out of his hands. From his statement one can only come to the conclusuion that he thought he should go to an event represented by hamas proponents.

Malik should be removed from his post immediately. No wonder the American customs officers jacked him up last time he visited the US. I hope they do so again.

This not only isolates and disenfranchises the more thinking and open minded Muslims amongst us but feeds the lunatics who infest the BBC Speak Your Braines boards and the Daily Mail letters pages who to be quite frank border on the fascist.

For fuck’s sakes, these more thinking and open minded Muslims have only to open their goddamend mouths in order to distance themselves from their extremist counterparts.

The process of open dissent is very simple and is seen in just about all other major religions

So why don’t they dissent? If they think more and are more open, then why do they never protest at events such as ‘islam Expo’?

In fact, why do most of these moderates immediately go on the defensive when radicals are invoked if, as you say, they’re all supposed to be so opposed to the extremism in their ranks?

Could it be that some self-described moderates are anything of the sort?

Perhaps many of these moderates actually subscribe to some of Islam’s more hateful screeds, and are only ‘moderate’ in that they’re too cowardly, as opposed to the more fanatical, to act on this hate.

Not many Salafists over here, MoresGothy, they mainly breeze in and out of Harrods and the large country estates they bought in the Seventies when not picking up ‘productivity bonuses’ from British manufacturers importing clerical fascsit literature ot supply their funding of Islamic centres.

Maybe you mean Deobandi Mawdudists like the Tablighi? Whose members in the Pakistani ISI created the Taliban and fund the Jamaat e Islamis over here?

Outside of Arab ‘refugee’ organisations, they are the main recruiters/funders of AQ in the UK.

Morgoth – the Ikhwanis are not Salafis. In fact, they don’t get on at all.

Ikhwanis are fairly comfortable making deals with the Iranians on loads of issues, which is why when people in gaza are pissed off at Hamas, they call them “Shiites”.

Not just the Hay on Wye types – the SNP too.

See this article on how the Brotherhood have entryised the SNP and used it to cut off funding to other more mainstream muslim groups:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-hit-by-cash-for.4283425.jp

John P said: “For fuck’s sakes, these more thinking and open minded Muslims have only to open their goddamend mouths in order to distance themselves from their extremist counterparts.”

Many of them have but the Govt still chooses to listen to extremists who coat their poison in honey. Also by sidlining progressive Muslims the state puts them in physical danger from the more nuttier elements in theri community. Try to put yourself in the position of a Muslim who believes that Allah created LGBT people as well as straight people or someone for whom the prohibition of alcohol wasn’t meaningful to them but in all other aspects such as giving charity and religious actions still considered themselves a Muslim? These Muslims should be encouraged to stand up and be counted and this will mean sidelining the nutters and Islamists.

John P said: “The process of open dissent is very simple and is seen in just about all other major religions”

Sometimes this process of open dissent has meant bloodshed as the dissenters are crushed. We must as a nation protect those Muslim dissenters who are in danger not only from their co religionists but from the growth of anti Islamic opinion.

JohnP said”So why don’t they dissent? If they think more and are more open, then why do they never protest at events such as ‘islam Expo’?

Maybe they were scared or just voted with their feet.

JohnP said”Could it be that some self-described moderates are anything of the sort?”

That may well be the case but there is a greater variety of Muslim opinion out there than those that just classify themselves as moderate in order to promote Islamism. I agree to a certain extent that the Govt has been caught on the hop by MAB and others posing as moderates and the influence of the Saudi’s in UK mosques isn’t helpful either, but that doesn’t mean that other progressive muslim opinion doesn’t exist out side of those groupings.

I think encouraging the growth of a Liberal British Muslim ‘flavour’ could cut the feet from beneath the Islamists. Which would benefit us all in the long run.

For a religion of peace, and a worldwide Ummah, Muslims seem remarkably argumentative and fractious.

For a religion of peace, and a worldwide Ummah, Muslims seem remarkably argumentative and fractious.

Not like the good old C of E then?

Iain, that would be an ecumenical matter, would it not?

I find it terribly ironic that John P, a member of the church that gave us the Inquisition, is lecturing others about tolerance of dissent.

He’s correct about Islam, but he’s also got a 2000-years-of-brutal-monotheist-hegemony-sized beam in his only eye as far as his own dangerous delusions are concerned.

First this:

Sometimes this process of open dissent has meant bloodshed as the dissenters are crushed. We must as a nation protect those Muslim dissenters who are in danger not only from their co religionists but from the growth of anti Islamic opinion.

Then this:

Maybe they were scared or just voted with their feet.

And then this:

I think encouraging the growth of a Liberal British Muslim ‘flavour’ could cut the feet from beneath the Islamists. Which would benefit us all in the long run.

It would seem that reform in Islam is next to impossible. I won’t go into theological reasons why I’m skeptical Islam could ever reform in the way Christianity and Judaism have done, but will affirm it’ll propbably never happen.

I’ll just say this, if Islam can,t broker dissent, if it can’t tolerate a difference of opinion, and if its more moderate adherents are kept in a state of fear and intimidation, then wouldn’t it, in the long run, be much better if we simply encouraged these moderates to abandon Islam altogether and to embrace another religion?

Why try and save a fascist iedology that isn’t worth saving?

The recent Muslim convert to Christianity, Magdi Allam, has some very interesting things to say on this subject. He challenges Islam’s claim to possessing Abrahamic credentials, he challenges Mohammed’s claim to be a messenger of god and he challenges the theocrats and clerics to defend and justify the more ridiculous and outlandish assertions contained in Islam’s core texts.

His challenges still stand and get no response.

Magdi Allam isn’t in the business of midwivery; he has no intention to, and no interest in, birthing a moderate Islam because he feels, as an ex-Muslim and as someone who’s performed his Haj, that such a creature can never be brought into existence.

I tend to agree with the fellow.

Pulling the rug out from under the islamist’s feet is best done by whittling away at their consituency, their demographic until their following is negligible.

“He’s correct about Islam, but he’s also got a 2000-years-of-brutal-monotheist-hegemony-sized beam in his only eye as far as his own dangerous delusions are concerned.”

Yeah, let’s not forget it’s within our great-grandparents’ lifetimes that Italian troops rescued Jews and other “deviants” from the dungeons of the Vatican, whereupon the Pope sulked for about 50 years until his successor did a deal with fascists. So really they’re in no position to lecture anyone about morality.

P.

Trundlemaster: I hear what you say, but surely, the moderate Muslims, those whose main Muslimness is cultural and charitable, must start to distance themselves from the ‘hard men’? You can’t expect the British Government to do it all for you. Change has to come from within. In the West we’ve a long tradition of standing up and being counted. And as for the crack about the CofE above, I’m not aware that teh rival factions fo the Anglian communion are blowing each other up. They may not invite each other to their teaparties, they may snub each other at dos, but they sure as hell aren’t killing each other and never will do.

Breaking news…According to Ghahaffi the Israelis killed Kennedy and Osama is a recrusant Muslim…WTF!

Is “John.P.” good ol’ John Papalbullski? Why the new funky expurgation?

Jesus, is that the real Col Ghadaffi?
He looks like Michael Jacksons plastic surgeons got hold of Phil Lynotts corpse, put it on a podium and made it read David Ickes speeches.

Sue R said”Trundlemaster: I hear what you say, but surely, the moderate Muslims, those whose main Muslimness is cultural and charitable, must start to distance themselves from the ‘hard men’?

I couldn’t agree more. What worries me is that especially in the media these voices condemning the Islamofash are not being heard enough. I know for a fact that one of the earliest condemnations of the 7/7 atrocities was from Imaan the UK LGBT Muslim group and distancing their strand of Islam from the nutters.

Sue R said”You can’t expect the British Government to do it all for you. ”

No but the Govt can encourage Liberal Islam and sideline the extremists.

Sue R said”Change has to come from within. ”

But sometimes change needs to be encouraged.

Sue R said”In the West we’ve a long tradition of standing up and being counted. ”

And a dynamic and healthy tradition it is as well.

Sue R said”And as for the crack about the CofE above, I’m not aware that teh rival factions fo the Anglian communion are blowing each other up. They may not invite each other to their teaparties, they may snub each other at dos, but they sure as hell aren’t killing each other and never will do.”

If you are referring to the modern day C of E then you are right. But you only need to look back about three hundred or so years to see Christian killing Christian over matters of doctrine.

So Osama Saeed, the pro caliphate and one stater, who believes carving up the Muslim world into states was an imperialist plot,is standing in Glasgow central on a platform of Scottish independence.

Go Osama!

At the risk of getting Godwinian:

“The basis for his absurd claim were the real or imagined links of some of the organisers with A. Hitler, winner of the last German elections, or the National Socialist Party, the largest political movement in the German-speaking world.”

To Brett and Paul Moloney: The 60s are over as is the 20th century! And Magi Allam, ex-Muslim and extremely clever Christian convert, is light years ahead of both of you…..a man for the 21st century.

So I shall reach back to the 19th in an effort to spur you on into the 21st and to imbue both of you anti-Catholic bigots with a smidgen of maturity.

When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane, not in all things, but in religious matters. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic — for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it.
— Mark Twain

I greatly appreciate the distinction Sue R makes between Islamists and Anglicans, and find it amazing such distinctions still must be articulated for the benefit of those so streadfast in their denial.

To Morgoth: Every last friggin’ villiage in Italy is a work of art. the entire country drips sensuality. The place is the product of The Church.

And the Inquisition is over, long over.

thoughtful…Presbyterian

*guffaw*

The place is the product of The Church.

Tell that to the millions murdered in the name of your deity. “Oh but at least they made nice paintings” is the equivalent of “But at least he made the trains run on time”.

And the Inquisition is over, long over.

Only because they know they couldn’t get away with it again. If they could, they would. Srebenica is a modern-day example of what Christians will do if they think they’ll get away with it.

I must say, I see nothing wrong an Islam-expo. But the festival seems inherently Islamic nationalist, setting the Dome of the Rock at its centre, which is fine. But why cannot Milne be equally appreciative of something that is Jewish nationalist, or Zionist, and something that celebrates its fruit, the Jewish state of Israel?

Lord Sheikh: I know a Doctor Doctor, and there is a Judge Judge.

I once danced with Judge Judge, at a Ceildh in Oban

How ironic that Malik is told not to go to Islam Expo when he said that UK Muslims were like the Jews of Europe (in the bad old days).

But Shahid me old luvley, if this WAS like the Europe who treated the Jews so badly then you wouldn’t be a minister, let alone an MP, and no-one would let Islam Expo exist.

Doesn’t that show you for the incompetent, wolf-in-sheeps clothing, tosser you seem to aspire to? (apologies to tossers!)

Have any of you read this by Seamus?
http://ouraim.blogspot.com/2008/03/seamus-milne-comments-on-gaza.html

What a fucking cunt!

Yet more great news generally, and for HP specifically. You’ve comprehensively beaten the bad guys to a pulp. I am glad to see that the government has realised that people of the ilk who are running Islam Expo have absolutelty nothing in common with the values of the Labour Party.

Interesting that the Lib Dems didn’t pull out, unlike Labour and Tory. And also the stuff above about the SNP bankrolling that twat Saeed. Slightly worrying, but no one with any sense has ever had any respect for either of those two parties anyway. Thank goodness the two most sensible parties on this issue are also the two largest and the alternative government to the other. The Liberals and the SNP are bunch of weirdo fringe nutters on these issues. Someone needs to give them a good slap.

Seaumus Milne unfortunately thinks that to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Islam one must necessarily be anti-Zionist. the Jews do not have a right to national self-determination, restoration and return to Palestinian Christian Muslims and Christians. It is the unfortunate view of a cultural Christian English public school boy, for whom the term ‘neo-con’ means very much what ‘Jew’ meant for those of his class a hundred years ago.

He also has that very noble public school aspiration to be a kind of socialist Lawrence of Arabia of the 20th. It is simply unfortunate that, unlike Lawrence, he sees no notion of justice in a Jewish restoration to the land of which they were historically dispossessed. Perhaps that is the Anglo-Irish Catholic part of him speaking.

Only because they know they couldn’t get away with it again. If they could, they would. Srebenica is a modern-day example of what Christians will do if they think they’ll get away with it.

Morgoth, how many 100s of millions did the 20th century’s officially atheist ideologies kill?

It’s all fine and dandy to go back to The Inquisition, but there are much more recent and murderous events that are conveniently ignored by the atheist crowd.

That same atheist crowd that has British TV programmes portraying Christians as beheading Muslims!

Correction:

He also has that very noble public school aspiration to be a kind of socialist Lawrence of Arabia of the TWENTY FIRST century.

Morgoth, how many 100s of millions did the 20th century’s officially atheist ideologies kill?

Neither Communism or Nazism were atheist, John. They simply changed the name of the gods around. Christianity and Islam certainly had willing pupils in Hitler and Stalin.

Although I am as appreciative of Morgoth’s acerbic comments as the next, I would recommend he spend some time perusing the pages of “The Black Book of Communism” to gain a feel for what truly dedicated atheists are capable of. Although such depredations as outlined in this work by French authors don’t excuse those done in the name of “The Church,” they surely do dwarf them.

Here is a sensible Muslim woman commenting on a session (her term)with David T’s fave lady which she attended at IslamExpo:

Her[Yvonne Ridley's] argument smacked of the stereotypical zeal with which converts to Islam take to the religion…
When Yvonne Ridley was asked by a member of the audience whether she viewed the enforcement of the hijab on young girls as justified, she unhelpfully replied “All I can say is that if I had listened to my mother when I was younger, I wouldn’t have made half the mistakes that I had made in my lifetime”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/14/women.islam

The official atheism of the world’s “officially atheist” ideologies was almost entirely tangential to the depredations they undertook. Which is not something you could say re religiosity for the Inquisition. Long time ago though.

But then also, the horrors of the Bosnian war weren’t really down to religion any more than Stalin’s horrors were because the CPSU were atheists – much more to do with ethnicity and national/ethnic supremacism, conflict over land. resources etc.

Which is why, much as I am a staunch atheist, I think Richard Dawkins rather simplistically goes over the top. If religion disappeared tomorrow, conflict would not disappear. It is laughable to suggest that this might be so. It’s strange that a very clever man like Dawkins can’t see this, whereas it is abuntantly clear to me as a lesser mortal.

If Yvonne Ridley had managed to avoid getting kidnapped in Aghanistan, she wouldn’t have made 95 per cent of the mistakes that she’s made in her lifetime.

Ami

Maleiha Malik – who is quoted in this article – is absolutely spot on. She was a friend at university and is very impressive.

It is a great pity that people like her are participating in Hamas/MB run events. She also previously participated in a seminar with a senior Al Muhajiroun activist.

What we need is a non-sectarian, non terrorist led forum in which these matters can be discussed.

There isn’t one: and the Hamas/MB/Jamaat/Hizb/MPAC crowd absolutely dominate the scene.

“What we need is a non-sectarian, non terrorist led forum in which these matters can be discussed.”

There are non-sectarian organisations. I admire the work of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford – http://www.meco.org.uk/ – and the Progressive British Muslims – http://www.pbm.org.uk/. They are, in my mind, as large if not larger than the likes of MPAC, but get less coverage and less funding because they are sensible and moderate and don’t portray themselves as Islamic vanguards. Maybe if people paid more attention to what they said, the Islamists would be sidelined.

A problem I see ahead is that the will of the minority to see the UK under Islamic law is probably greater than the will of the majority to resist.
This is, arguably, why such horrendous people end up in power so often.

Yes, I directed the Mail to MECO when the spoke to me. They’re not national, though. And “they” is essentially Taj Hargey.

PBM are also very nice, and I know one of their founders, who used to be at my law firm. But, again, they’ve not got their own mosques, clerics, a youth movement, an international organisation, and so on.

That is because PBM are basically ordinary, normal people, who take pride in their religious identity, but who would rather be spending their lives bringing up their kids, doing their jobs, and not focussing on this parochial religious-political crap we’ve all been dragged into since 2001.

They only came into existence because somebody has to fight these lunatics, and they’ve stepped up to the plate.

This is why the issue for the next decade is anti-sectarianism.

The initial report of Shahid Malik pulling out wasn’t made by the MP for Dewsbury himself, but by one of the more high-profile people often described here as Islamists.

When Mr Malik was detained leaving the USA a few months ago, it wasn’t by Customs, but by the same Department of Homeland Security that he had been visiting. He accepted an apology.

The incident wasn’t news in the USA.

“So he concedes that at least some of the links to Hamas are real”

Real *or* imagined. Not real *and* imagined.

Ho Ho Ho – Milne is indeed getting generally a kicking on CIF, good the truth is being spread ! His comments on HP are an outrage :

“the fact that one of the organisers is suing the neocon website Harry’s Place over a highly inflammatory mistranslation of a comment reported on the al-Jazeera website.”

This is just so wrong, you cannot let him get away with it. Come on David T or someone, you have to put up something on this. We need the most possible exposure of Milne here now, he’s on his last legs.

Things are moving towards a crisis !!!

Real *or* imagined. Not real *and* imagined.

You’re right. He doesn’t concede the links are real, but he is saying, implicitly, that it doesn’t matter either way.

He knows that Tamimi speaks for Hamas, and he knows that Sawalha is a fugitive Hamas commander.

He knows that Tamimi speaks for Hamas, and he knows that Sawalha is a fugitive Hamas commander.

Precisely.

Otherwise he would have said

‘The basis for his absurd claim were the imagined links of some of the organisers with Hamas’

instead of covering himself with a careful choice of words.

Hedging adjectives, those “real or imagined”.

He won’t say “links” minus the adjectives – that would be to admit they existed.

He won’t “supposed” or “imaginary” – as that would be an outright lie.

So they are “real or imagined” and they are links to quite respectable stuff on the whole, like an elected Hamas and a very large Muslim Brotherhood.

You can imagine an IrishExpo organiser described in the same way – with “real or imagined” links to Sinn Fein and the IRA – Sinn Fein, with its x number of elected MPs and the IRA, held in respect in the Republic of Ireland.

What a slippery weasel Shameless is.

Taj Hargey: Just watched him on the Qur’an programme. His accent sounds to me like he hails from SA, like the Cape Coloured accent- do you know if that is the case, David T, I can’t find any SA connection via Google.

The battle is far from over.

Try telling that to Sunny Hundal.

That’s the rationale behind his change of focus at Pickled Politics i.e. away from exposing communalist fuckwits and towards telling brown people to vote Tory.

I see he has posted absolutely nothing about this affair on his website. So much for solidarity on the Left, eh? You can bet your bottom dollar if it were him being sued there’d be an article a day on Cif / LibConspiracy and a Facebook group with his smug goateed chops plastered all over it.

You’re right. He doesn’t concede the links are real, but he is saying, implicitly, that it doesn’t matter either way.

I’m sorry I know this book is a bit of a warn out novelty but I’ve just gotten around to reading it and I’m finding this straightforward philosophical distinction terrifically useful:

“Frankfurt distinguishes bullshitting from lying; while the liar deliberately makes false claims, the bullshitter is simply uninterested in the truth.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

I agree with MMN. Milne didn’t say the site alleges the translation, he came straight out and said it was a mistranslation. Sounds as if he’s second guessing any court decision.

Bungle was rapped for less.

“they’ve not got their own mosques, clerics, a youth movement, an international organisation, and so on.”

MPAC doesn’t have mosques or an international organisation. As far as I can see, it is a foray into politics by no more than a couple of dozen reactionary young male computer nerds. It gets media coverage because of its radicalism and the energy the clique puts into their campaigns, because – without girlfriends or wives (or boyfriends?) – they have a lot of time on their hands. The media is guilty of skewing ideas about British Muslim opinion because it mainly listens to the radicals than the more moderate groups.

Try telling that to Sunny Hundal.

That’s the rationale behind his change of focus at Pickled Politics i.e. away from exposing communalist fuckwits and towards telling brown people to vote Tory.

I see he has posted absolutely nothing about this affair on his website. So much for solidarity on the Left, eh? You can bet your bottom dollar if it were him being sued there’d be an article a day on Cif / LibConspiracy and a Facebook group with his smug goateed chops plastered all over it.

Hundal has lost it completely – his arrogance is now utterly over the top, and many people have realised this and are backing away from him.

His downward descent started when he claimed he was going to bring world peace (or near enough) at some grand Fabian meeting that some Ministers were attending. He told everyone he had some utterly brillian fantastical idea that would change geopolitics forever. It was then revealed that this idea was that he wanted both India and Pakistan on the Security Council as Permanent members. The idea sunk without trace, needless to say, and he’s never mentioned it again.

Only yesterday he was claiming that he had “destroyed [Anthony Andrews] long, boring essay” – this would be the same Anthony Andrews who utterly pwned him in the comments threads and to which Hundal’s sum total of reply was “Boring!”.

The thing about Hundal you must remember is that he’s only in it for the benefit of Hundal. He’s losing interest in PickledPolitics (on a good day they will get perhaps 8 commenters – part of which is because Hundal will eviscerate and delete any and all comments that show him or his mucker Sid in a bad light). LiberalConspiracy has been a disaster (hyped to buggery courtesy of his BBC chums yet most articles don’t get any comments), he’ll shortly move on the next great Hundal project.

He still lives at home with his mum. Guido has a famous photograph of him pretending to spank the bottom of some Indian model at some fashion show or other. The caption competition on the thread was very funny.

Dan

I couldn’t agree with you more.

However, the truth of the matter is that radical groups have a good deal of energy. That’s because they trade on a sense of anger, betrayal, a desire for violence, and so on. Groups like PGM are never going to have that dynamism, by their nature.

Linkages Morgoth? That said Sunny at least gets on Radio 4.

(Give credit to LC’s Unity for exposing Kollerstrom, and Sunny for not noticing the neo-Nazis who swarmed in.)

Linkages Morgoth?

The Anthony Andrews post is from yesterday. I’m sure you’re familiar with the “Boring!” comment – it was covered here on HP. The other thing – look up PP archives about 3 to 6 months ago. I’ll try and dig out the links this evening if I have time.

Ta’. I recognize the others, just not his being the spanky-boy.

Ta’. I recognize the others, just not his being the spanky-boy.

Oh, go look up Guido’s archives for that.

That was rather pitiful.

Why sweat Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas connections at an Islamic event? We all know that no good Muslim would ever disown or disavow connection with either bunch of good Islamics. You seem to be one of those people who are forever trying to make silk from a pig’s ear.

What are “Islamics” jakester?

And could you source your story on the other thread please.

Tim,
You tell me what good comes from Islam? What universal message of human rights or love comes out of a religion that mandates holy war to spread the faith and death to the apostate? Sure, people should be free to worship the devil in a modern society. But we should be free to expose and vilify those same devil worshippers. If you can’t draw the line between those fascist Islamic cretins reaction say to the Muhammed cartoons or a teacher naming a teddy bear Muhammad as a harbinger of what life would be like under Islam then you must lack powers of both observation and deduction. I see nothing good coming out of Islam as spineless folks like you let it take hold in the west. Your ilk were the same sort of folk that were worried more about anti-communism than communism.
All you have to do is look at the most Islamic countries in the world like Saudi Arabia and Iran and imagine your country becoming more like that.

What are “Islamics” jakester?

And could you source your story on the other thread please.

Tim. you are amazingly persistent
Do you support women’s rights, separation of Church and state. freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, or do you think that stoning adultresses and apostates to death is good thing or has nothing to do with Islam? If so, then why are you nitpicking over words like a spineless d’himmi? It’s because you are abetting them.
Oh yes, it’s the anti-islamics and the anti-communists who are the bad guys, not the fascist they fight. You want it both ways, support all sorts of human rights ideals while accomodating and supporting forces that would end that.

When you’ve sourced your story about Obama’s half brother on the other thread we’ll carry on.

To be honest, I can’t see English people (or other Europeans) letting sharia law take over. Alcohol, free love, dancing, visual, figurative arts, emancipated women etc etc are all so firmly entrenched in European culture that the Muslims are barking up the wrong tree. What I can see however is centuries of isolated bombings and terror activities. The Islamic heartlands will, with global warming, become more and more inhospitable and uninhabital and so naturally, any that can will stay in the West. Due to the nature of their religion they will seek to change the Western way of life. I must admit I have started to wish that intergalatic travel was a reality but that would only delay it. Regarding the remarks about science, I found a website written by an Assyrian the other day, sorry I can’t remember it’s name. but he argued that all the discoveries by Arabs in the Medieval world were actually by Assyrians. Once they had killed all the Assyrians in one way or another, the Golden Age of Islam was over. Obviously, Arabs/Muslims are capable of the highest levels of science, but generally they have to leave Islamic societies and go and live in the West to participate fully in the frontiers of scientific discovery. Can Flanker or someone explain why?

“The Janjaweed, the Taliban, the Deonbandis, the murderous jihadis, the terror attacks; that is Islam’s expo, those are the fruits of Islam!”

The Holocaust, Hiroshima, the Iraq war, Fred Nile, Jerry Falwell, the Acton memo; that is Western civilisation’s expo, these are the fruits of Christianity!

(Yeah, right. As if anyone would believe such nonsense!)

“Due to the nature of their religion they will seek to change the Western way of life.”

What on earth is the “Western way of life”? And in what sense does 14 centuries of evolving religious tradition seek to change this?

On the other hand, I think it is true that many of those managing Muslim religious institutions in Australia (I’m not sure about the UK situation) aren’t exactly committed to integration.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/australian-islam-needs-an-aussie-accent/2007/05/02/1177788224486.html?page=fullpage