Harry’s Place

You have competition in Toronto:

http://ezralevant.com/2008/07/comedy-benefit-for-guy-earle-j.html

right-of-center blog

Reynolds is a libertarian, he doesn’t lie on the left-right axis.

I would put Instapundit as right-of-center, especially since he has nothing to do with the more isolationist elements of the libertarian movement.

Anyhow, I’m glad HP is getting support, and I hope that it’s enough to ward off this fascist nonsense. The fact that they need support in the first place is an outrage.

Reynolds, “I’m more of a Heinleinian libertarian…”

Libertarians don’t come in as many flavors as Ben and Jerry’s icecream, but there is more than one.

“We have no more use for their support than we would for support from racist or antisemitic sites.”

If so, I doubt you’d want this blogger on the blogroll:

“Illegal immigrants leaving Arizona”

I am guessing that at least half of the 18 million or so WETBACKS in this nation would be denied admission to the USA if we’d act, but the time to act is NOW, put the National Guard on the border, with full combat capabilities and tell em, ANYTHING coming over that border is an ILLEGAL invader, KILL IT!!…

If I am to be called ‘racist’, if I am to wear the name, if it makes me a racist to stand up and defend MY nation and to call an illegal invader a wetback, to call them by the only name that truly describes them for what they are, WETBACKS, then you’re damn right, I AM a racist, and I’ll wear the title proudly…

http://texasfred.net/archives/872

I see you guys have meet the most gutless FAKE on the web, Dr. Donnie Duckless…

Hiya Donnie, what’s up?? No poop to stir on your child molester blog??

My apologies for the typo, I see you have MET the esteemed FAKE… Sorry.. :P

And Donnie, I have no desire to dirty up their blog if MY desire to rid the USA of the ILLEGAL garbage that has infested brands me a racist…

Be fair Donnie, tell them WHY you and I have had words, tell them how YOU came into a discussion between U.S. marines and inserted yourself where you weren’t welcome, and how YOU denigrated the service of the Marines, and when you got the crap slapped out of you, you cried all over the net, just like you’re doing here, and then tried to make out like it was only a joke…

Tell em Donnie, the truth would do you good for a change…

It really is time to get over the 18th century idea that all political positions can be assigned a place on a metaphorical left-right spectrum. Some people and political organizations and nations consistently support liberal-democratic rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and association, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press.

Most don’t.

That’s it and that’s all there is. You are either on the side of all of the above freedoms and the people and organizations and nations that honor them or you aren’t.

The Trots have been pretty quiet, haven’t they. Normally Will gets a hard on every time someone farts round here, but as soon as you find yourselves being sued by a member of a genocidal, antisemitic organisation, he’s overcome by reticence.

Maybe he’s organising a financial appeal for Sawalha’s legal case?

I didn’t read all the content of what you called “a muslim hate site” called “the truth about islam” but it did seem to me that they were against the more hateful ideas within the sphere of Islamism as spouted by Islamists to justify Jihad.

I would 100% agree that we do not want to be associated with anti-Muslim sites but HP is declared to be against the creep of Islamism and I thought this site was more that than being against Muslims.

Its a possible argument that might be made that if you are against Islamism then you are against Muslims. An argument made by Islamists to create faux Islamaphobia. I say NOT because all the interactions I have personally had with Muslims in my community (restaurants and cab drivers) tells me that they are great people who you can be friends with.

Not so with the well-known Islamists.

Reynolds is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, with libertarian leanings. I think describing his blog as ‘right-of-centre’ is a little clumsy and rather old fashioned.

Yes, Gene, but it’s all much ado about nothing anyway.

Glen Reynolds is most certainly right wing, although not rabidly so in the US political context. You’ll see his contributions to Pajamas Media, run by Roger L. Simon and Charles Johnson of LGF fame, fandango which made a pretense of being bi-partisan when it first launched. You can be easily disabused of such naivete by perusing its networked blogs.

I’m a dogged HP basher, but I don’t support either side in this silly battle. If the BMI would listen to my advice I’d tell them to drop this libel suite immediately.

On the question of anti-Muslim racism. Probably 50% of HP commenters are blatanty and overtly racist to Muslims. Probably a similar proportion of those on that blogroll are too. There’s not much to debate there. I don’t believe the writers on HP are anti-Muslim racists. However, you can make racists statements against Muslims here and you will not be challenged. But if I was an HP writer, especially one whose mission in life was to eradicate sectarianism for the Muslim community (David), I’d make a little more effort to occasionally defend Muslims against the disgusting attacks on them, indeed acknowledge the attacks on them in the country, as exposed on C4 the other day (sorry, but this is much much worse than anything in the report on ant-Semitism), and distance myself from the racists. Gene has just done so. We could do with more of this.

TheIrie

“I’m a dogged HP basher”

You are a dogged nothing. You are an idiot who is constantly shown to be a brainless and unpleasant individual. Pxxs off and start your own blog and ‘dog’ on your own.

The notion that people should berated for not mentioning HP’s little “trouble”, and therefore being supposedly ideologically impure, is absurd, of course. This is just made into yet another virility test.

It does not occur to such folk that this non-story may actually be deemed as such, and that’s why the blogosphere is not lit up like a Christmas tree about it. Of course those that fret about mad muslims every waking hour (probably in their sleep too, actually) will dutifully fret about this too. But this proves little…

Back in the real world you may notice there are other more pressing issues that folk are worried about these days, rather than this non-story.

Irie.
I thought you were an HP “plant”
You do more than anyone else to prove the need for its existence.

I didn’t read all the content of what you called “a muslim hate site” called “the truth about islam” but it did seem to me that they were against the more hateful ideas within the sphere of Islamism as spouted by Islamists to justify Jihad.

Maven, if that’s not an anti-Muslim hate site, perhaps you could point me to an example of one that is.

“I’m a dogged HP basher, but I don’t support either side in this silly battle. If the BMI would listen to my advice I’d tell them to drop this libel suite immediately.” (TheIrie)

I have a better idea. If the BMI listen to your advice, tell them to free Gilad Shalit.

And of course “Texas Fred” is one of the blogs without whose support we can manage quite nicely.

“You are a dogged nothing. You are an idiot who is constantly shown to be a brainless and unpleasant individual. Pxxs off and start your own blog and ‘dog’ on your own.”

Actually, TheIrie has his own blog.
http://clearblogs.com/TheIrie/
It is in abeyance, like Benjamin’s.
It seems that trolls find it lonely when confronted only with their own thoughts.

TJ said:”The Trots have been pretty quiet, haven’t they”

I’ve just popped over and looked at another left bulletin board called Urban75 which has quite a few SWP supporters on it and done a quick search to see if the publicity over the IslamExpo has caused any kerfuffle there and there is not word said. Nothing prior to 2006. There are posters on that site like other similar sites where Trots congregate like flies on rotten corpses and any challenge to the idea that extremist Islamism is not a threat to democracy is greeted by a chorus of ‘racist’, ‘Islamaphobe’ or ‘Tory’.

I might for the first time in years purchase a copy of Socialist Worker to see how deeply the Swaps are in denial about the Jihadist background to the organisers of IslamExpo.

There is a need for a national Islamic lifestyle exhibition but it should be pluralist not just a vehicle for extremists.

WHere are the great Leftists publicatsions - the Indi, Guardian etc.

Where is the great Leftist broadcasters, the BBC on this.

Where are all the Leftist Human Rights people, like Liberty.

I haven’t heard a peep from them.

Could it be that Human Rights was just a scam, used by the Left to gain power, money and influence where they have no right to be.

Mmmmm

Any possibility of producing a “This blog supports Harry’s Place” widget that those of us who run blogs could incorporate into our home pages? It could also carry a link to whichever of your “support us” posts you choose? And if Mr S and Dean and Dean do continue to pursue you it could also link to a Paypal button for a support fund.

I see that Policy Exchange has a significant meeting at lunchtime today:

“Libel Tourism: Does UK Law Need Reform?”

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/Events.aspx?id=685

No doubt, ‘Harry’s Place’ is on the case.

‘Probably 50% of HP commenters are blatanty and overtly racist to Muslims.’

- care to justify that claim TheIrie? (Don’t worry, I’m pretty sure that no one would sue you for defamation.)

TheIrie,

‘But if I was an HP writer’

You are an HP writer, Irie, you practically live here. You are living proof of HP’s freedom of speech policy.

A policy of freedom of speech Lenin’s Tomb and Jewssansfrontieres had to follow, incidentally, albeit fitfully.

A storming piece by George Monbiot today against British libel laws - with some unlikely allies it seems:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/15/civilliberties.medialaw

“You are living proof of HP’s freedom of speech policy.” I agree - I’ve never questioned that.

Probably a similar proportion of those on that blogroll are too. There’s not much to debate there.

Yes there is. Let’s debate it. Show us the 50% of the blogroll that you consider racist.

Also, freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Objectionable things will be said and heard. The granter of freedom of speech is not obliged to apologise for everything that is said, or even most things that are said, necessarily.

‘Probably 50% of HP commenters are blatanty and overtly racist to Muslims.’

Blatantly and overtly?

Oh, and Seumus’ ‘neocon website’ looks a lot like ‘too many Jews’ from Winchester Boy.

… and distance myself from the racists.

Distancing oneself from racists is something the (anti-war/far/Guardian-reading) left has spectacularly failed to do. You’ll forgive me, TheIrie, if I have a little ironic chuckle to myself at your somewhat blinkered comment.

and overtly racist to Muslims

How can one be racist against a group of people who willingly hold an optional set of ideas?

(I hope they would all be equally supportive if, for some reason, we were being unfairly sued by Mark Steyn or Rush Limbaugh, but I live in the real world.)

I really can’t imagine Mark Steyn suing anybody for libel these days…

Instapundit can be best summed up by his famous quote:

Personally, I’d be delighted to live in a country where happily married gay couples had closets full of assault weapons.

Reynolds is a libertarian, he doesn’t lie on the left-right axis.

US-style “Libertarians” are right-wingers. That they don’t understand this is indicative of the quality of their political thought.

urban75 is full of wealthy middle class graphic designers and media types.

They are living out a fantasy of being tough, radical. working class activists because they are enthralled to the Anti-capitalist movement and they have mortgages on Edwardian terraces in Brixton.

Proper radical man!!!!!!

They are middle class liberal tosers at their worst.

I went on the urban 75 forum to talk about why we as Leftists condemn right wing Christianity but give right wing Islamists a free pass.

Did an impassioned debate ensue? Did they listen to what I had to say and have an adult conversation? No they did not.

I was denounced as a racist by everyone who had a keyboard in front of them. It was like they didn’t even care what I had to say, I was a racist neocon because I dared to question a political/religious movement of an ethnic minority.

I wasn’t supportive of the brown skinned anti imperialists of the third world. I wasn’t on the side of the good guys.

Which of course makes me a George Bush loving BNP supporter.

I said time and time again that I didn’t support the war in Iraq but because I criticised Islam I was a neocon racist by default.

They are slaves to the dogmas of the Left.

Urban75? Pathetic.

“Oh, and Seumus’ ‘neocon website’ looks a lot like ‘too many Jews’ from Winchester Boy.”

I note his largely negative comments thread was closed after less than a day - is that a record?

Poor boy; must have brought back memories of being pelted by other boys with buttered crumpets after lights-out.

P.

Like in Sparta.

I note that CiF has a column critiquing the UK libel laws.

The threatened libel action against this blog appears to be an attempt to stifle legitimate reportage and free speech.

So good luck HP!

US-style “Libertarians” are right-wingers.

Yes, those with a capital L in America. However, you do get libertarian minded leftists too, some in Democratic Party, such as Kucinich and other liberal Democrats.

being pelted by other boys with buttered crumpets after lights-out.

Is this some sort of weird Free State euphemism?

(I hope they would all be equally supportive if, for some reason, we were being unfairly sued by Mark Steyn or Rush Limbaugh, but I live in the real world.)

I really can’t imagine Mark Steyn suing anybody for libel these days…

That´s what Gene said. He lives in the real world.
And he is not being sued by Mark Steyn or Rush Limbaugh.

Man, I stay offline for a couple of days and I miss Blogland’s equivalent of a Dr Who season finale. Not fair! Looks like the game is all but up for the weird extremist clique which keeps trying to speak for British muslims (and deliver their votes). Normal people want nothing to do with them, and deranged twerps go straight for Al-Quaeda style antics. What I really want to know is why the Guardian is letting a few fellow travellers tie it to that sinking ship.

Comments have been closed on Milne’s piece after a single day. To be honest it seemed the merciful thing to do.

Luke said:”They are middle class liberal tosers at their worst.”

In their defence though there are / were a fair few people who challenged this but they do get shouted down.

However I agree that there are a fair few people on there who are of this ilk. What got me away from that site was the constant ignoring of right wing Islamofash’s misdeed whilst concentrating on the misdeeds of extremist christians. If you are going to criticise extremists then it should be across the board.

This sort of unwelcome support is inevitable, but you’re right to distance yourselves from it. Not that this will stop the usual idiots saying “HP is supported by racists, therefore theirs is a racist cause”.

Its also been about 6 months since an article appeared by Azzam Tamimi, who’s links and howling speeches appeared immediately in the comments section.
His credibility was shot, not because of his Hamas links, an insight into Hamas is useful, but that the Guardian consistently attempted to obscure those links.

“being pelted by other boys with buttered crumpets after lights-out.

Is this some sort of weird Free State euphemism?”

Man, no; if I wanted to do euphemism, I would have talked about squirting creamy scones in his face.

Buttered crumpets? Lights out? I thought all you posh Prods went to boarding school. As a Taig, my only knowledge is gleaned from Blyton.

P.

Its also been about 6 months since an article appeared by Azzam Tamimi, who’s links and howling speeches appeared immediately in the comments section.

Boom Boom was only really flavour of the month while Seumas was editor of CiF. In the 12 months prior to Seumas leaving/being booted from the position, BBT had 18 articles - a pretty high figure - average 1.5 a month. In the 15 months since, he’s only had 4; average of 1 every 4 months. Lord knows how he’s surviving; hopefully it involves wanking for pennies.

P.

If you were tried in a Canadian “human rights” tribunal, support from a racist site would be prima facia proof of guilt.

Yes, Milne was being completely slaughtered, wasn’t he? Surprising, but no less welcome.

HP manages to navigate the treacherous currents of left wing paranoia and double-standards displayed by some and the idiocy of parts of the right very successfully on the whole. Why are more people not sensible? Sigh.

Urban75? Pathetic.

Well true, but (and with apologies to Metta) you have to love the interactive map of Wales:

http://www.urban75.org/cardiff/map.html

Lights out? I thought all you posh Prods went to boarding school.

Bog-standard Grammar school here.

Not sure being the son of a Carpet Fitter counts as posh either.

“This sort of unwelcome support is inevitable, but you’re right to distance yourselves from it. Not that this will stop the usual idiots saying “HP is supported by racists, therefore theirs is a racist cause”.”

-Peter, HP has already one better than that. A notable poster* has already argued that because certain contributors have not forcibly denounced some extreme posts here that they are themselves complicit to those views being posted.

*I’ll leave it to others to work out who this regular poster is.

You have my support. Drive on!

I wish Harry’s Place all the luck in the world in their coming legal battle, but the crack about Mark Steyn is out of order. Has he had any support from Harry’s Place about his “trial” in front of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (100% conviction rate - better than the Chinese courts) on trumped up charges?

TheIrie, can I go on the record as also being blatantly and overtly racist to nazis? Thanks.

HP has my wholehearted support in this battle.

On the other issue, TheIrie is basically right. There is a large contingent of raving anti-Muslim chauvinists who regularly turn up here and poison every discussion about issues relating to Muslims and Islam. They are essentially the mirror-image of the Muslim bigots on the other side of the fence, and represent an equivalent threat to civilised Western values and a barrier to winning democratic Muslims to the anti-jihadi struggle.

I wholeheartedly applaud the zero-tolerance approach that HP adopts toward Islamists, but it’s good to remind readers regularly that the Islamists’ counterparts among Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims really are no different or better. So well done to Gene for rejecting unwanted support.

There is a large contingent of raving anti-Muslim chauvinists who regularly turn up here and poison every discussion about issues relating to Muslims and Islam

I can only think of three at most.

And at least one of those ‘raves’ equally about all religions.

I fail to see how that makes him a racist.

Reading that article made me laugh.

“eynolds v Times Newspapers, when the law lords established that a journalist could use the defence of public interest if he had acted responsibly, even if he could not prove his allegations.”

Ouch, you are screwed.

I don’t give a fuck about you guys, but don’t think that if you are shut down and relocate I won’t find you. I swear to god I will track you down.

I’m really ticked off that the craven cowards at CIF shut out the hecklers from Seumas’s gig. I had a nice scenario worked out for him. ExpoFrance. Nice food, discussions about Flaubert, Sartre and the place of France in Europe. Good-sounding stuff, except that some of the organisers are Le Pen supporters and one of them is threatening to sue a liberalish leftish blog for pointing out his unpleasant remarks about immigrants. And so would the mainstream politicians who declined to get involved with this be the bunch of huffy hissy-fitters he makes them out to be? and the political editor of the NS Martin Bright who has “grandly” withdrawn from this therefore be following a dubious agenda? And would the ExpoFrance organisers therefore have achieved the moral high ground? (Questions merely rhetorical. I would never expect Seumas to answer them.)

On the question of anti-Muslim racism. Probably 50% of HP commenters are blatanty and overtly racist to Muslims.

Ah shut the fuck up!

Would it interest you to know that the *sacred* texts used by for ALL muslims call for the death of gays.

Just sayin’ as a gay man.

And quite performing your mortal preening on my back you disgusting, blinkered jackass before I boot you fuck off of it.

Everytime you buff-up your sick moral credentials, you righteous prig, you put the lives of ALL gays at a slightly higher risk.

Attacks on gays by Muslims are becomming an epidemic, you fucking retard.

Quit facilitating those attacks!

Marko

How is the European Neighbourhood? I hope you are Directing it well.

I don’t give a fuck about you guys, but don’t think that if you are shut down and relocate I won’t find you.

Funniest Oxymoron ever?

I wish Harry’s Place all the luck in the world in their coming legal battle

I very much doubt there will be one. If there is one I will contribute though.

Not that this will stop the usual idiots saying “HP is supported by racists, therefore theirs is a racist cause”.

Yes, smear by association, rum stuff. Never ever heard of around here, of course.

Whereas Christianity has always been so welcoming for gays….. NOT.

Lets face facts, John P…the only reason Christians aren’t throwing gays off the tops of buildings is because they couldn’t get away with it.

And for what its worth (after many years of arguing with them) there are more than three bigots here. I am not talking about relatively benign individual eccentrics like Morgoth and Palibuski but people who pop up agagin and again under different names and seeas far as I can see to be linked to a pretty disgusting sight calling itself “winds of Jihad”.

I think you know who you are.

I very much doubt there will be one. If there is one I will contribute though.

How? By sneering?

you fucking retard.

Very well said.

Dear sport, er, Harry, I support your right to free speech. No, really.

Even though mate, your site is sometimes rather sodden with Logical Fallacy, cant, canard and hyperbole. Steyn etc, would sue you? Riiight, sure he would! Give me a break. When, how, why? Nice dumb straw man and irrelevant subject change, kid. Stretching your Left cred in case an excellent comrade is looking at your current support?

“What, me pals with the Bush/Hitler people? No, way, man!” Ironic and laughable. Your nose is out of joint, eh?

As if…balls, mate. And er, there’s no mirror image of the 52 Islamic states that oppress and murder gays, women and children etc, and support worldwide terror etc, in the Jewish or Christian world anywhere…Give me a damn example consummate to Iran, Syria, the UAE etc. Junk mate. The Jews and Christians the same as the people who have carried out over 11,000 major reported terro attacks since 9/11? AND 9/11? Ah, the logic…maybe the Jews did it with Bush/Hitler?! Pass me a “Truther’ vomit bucket.

Hey, as long as one says Koskid absurdities about Christians and Jews though, one can never be a bigot, eh?

It’s no coincidence that Left sites are not supporting you as the Conservative blogs are. They never really do. And you know why. Are you saying this has not occurred to you? The Left talk freedom and diversity, but it’s a fraud of every opinion as long as it’s theirs. True conservatives at core believe in the individual first and limited government interference, especially foreign.

And the site you mentioned in the current Orwellian way as a “hate site” is no such thing. Islamists and PC Left Liberals now call any criticism of Islam defamation, because they cannot say blasphemy. It’s a crock and you know it. Regards an authentic er, hate site, try evidence, via actual statements.

Harry, you’re getting more support than you may deserve personally, beyond your right to speak freely of course. Yep, I support your freedom of speech and mine, to slice and dice your mediocrity and lack of quality control, but Harry, you’re often full of bog standard crap. Try humour, self reflection and honest maturity, kid.

Colonel Neville.

Oh Graham, I will miss you the most!

Seriously, you are not getting rid of me, and I will laugh at anything and everything he throws at ya except for forcing you guys to disperse. Now that will piss me off.

Can someone ie Marko Attila Hoare please define ‘racism’.

Can someone ie Marko Attila Hoare please define ‘racism’.

He didn’t use the word “racism” in his comment, so why should he define it?

P.

I do like how you suggest there is no support for BMI’s position - that’s far from the truth - anyone sensible looking at the situation can see that you have picked up and compounded an innocent error and that all he is asking for is for you to recognise that fact.

Sadly all the anti-islamic nutters seem to have whipped the matter up into some huge campaign to vilify someone who is making a legitimate request for you to correctly report the facts rather than try to make something out of an innocent mistake.

well, some HP threads do have their LGF moments, but then that is largely to be expected given:

1) the lack of moderation policy

2) the free and easy nature of the web

3) as anyone can post

4) and having a full time person filter comments is unrealistic and would stifle debate.

HP is a bit like a pub, a range of views are expressed, as in real life some are obnoxious and moronic.

I think some people vent their own anger in these discussions or often make ill thought out comments, but can’t retract them for fear of looking small and stupid.

An example might illustrate this point:

“I don’t believe the writers on HP are anti-Muslim racists. “

yet previously TheIrie stated with absolute conviction that “…David is a fantastically dishonest, textbook Orientalist, as proven time and time again here.”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/07/02/british-muslim-initiative-we-resent-the-evil-jew-in-britain/

So if an academic like TheIrie, who has benefited from a privileged education, can make clumsy ill thought out comments then anyone can.

BahtAt: Dave T wrote a very lucid report of what had happened, and as he pointed out, the person being sued should be Al Jezeera, they made the original mistake. Happy’s Place translated in good faith the text in question. It was subsequently altered.

“1) the lack of moderation policy

2) the free and easy nature of the web

3) as anyone can post

4) and having a full time person filter comments is unrealistic and would stifle debate.”

HA as someone that has had over a 100 post deleted and 5-6 bannings I call BS.

“I think some people vent their own anger in these discussions or often make ill thought out comments, but can’t retract them for fear of looking small and stupid.”

Nope they are racist bile, as much as I am accused of being an anti-jewish you have never seen me once write openly racist comments (or golly even obsess about judaism like all of you do), now why would that be? because I don’t get angry? Nope, Israel manages to piss me off every other day with what they do to Palestinians, or could it be that I simply know how to differentiate between a govt/institution and a religion and those that practice it? Do I go around forcing all jews to renounce that evil govt? Nope, because I am not racist.

Racism is in a nutshell: Dumping all members of a minority ethnic like groups (such as religious groups) into one pile and discriminate against them, forcing “not in our name” is discrimination.

Harriets are intolerant of those that are not racist but tolerant of those that are. What a surprise.

“BahtAt: Dave T wrote a very lucid report of what had happened, and as he pointed out, the person being sued should be Al Jezeera, they made the original mistake. Happy’s Place translated in good faith the text in question. It was subsequently altered.”

Is AJ even in the UK?

Jack R: Many thanks for flagging up the Policy Exchange lunchtime discussion- I just had time to shoot over there, and very interesting it was too. Very good arguments on all sides, attended by Dean Godson and Martin Bright who commented from the floor, and Joshua Rosenberg and Andrew Gilligan who didn’t. The HP libel matter was raised from the floor, and taken up by Anthony Julius on the panel. No time to comment in detail now, maybe later.

Al-Jazeera Satellite Channel
english.aljazeera.net

Westminster Tower
3 Albert Embankment, London, SE1 7SL, United Kingdom
+44 20 78204820

IANAL but that claim did not originate from that channel but the old fashioned AJ,

“Lets face facts, John P…the only reason Christians aren’t throwing gays off the tops of buildings is because they couldn’t get away with it.”

Morgoth, Morgoth, Morgoth.

Christians don’t toss people of buildings. They burn them at the stake. However; I would go so far as to say that there are a lot of Christian denominations that are not prevented from killing gays because they fear the backlash, but that they treat gays as humans.

(Fred Phelps and his fellow travelers notwithstanding, of course)

Secondly, if Christians can’t get away with homophobia, why can Muslims? Why aren’t there human rights cases built up against Imams that openly call for gays to be killed? Why can’t human rights courts be used by the -right- (as in correct) side for once?

——

As an aside, the concept of left-right in political leanings is far too dichotomous - it’s a one-dimensional projection of a two dimensional political space: Fiscal conservative/liberal vs. Social conservative/liberal. I’m enormously socially liberal; but I also believe that any government’s purpose is to safeguard that liberalism, not be my nanny. A nanny that won’t let you scrape your knee is a nanny that won’t let you learn from your mistakes and grow as a person. Not being able to grow as a person is the antithesis of progressivism.

I would bet that I am more progressive than Flanker or TheIrie on a lot of issues. The difference is that I know when dictators are just putting on a show for the rubes, and they are the rubes.

I would bet that I am more progressive than Flanker or TheIrie on a lot of issues.

I’m a lot more progressive than Flanker or TheIrie on a lot of issues.

, if Christians can’t get away with homophobia

They do and have. c.f. the recent Wedding Registrar case.

“They do and have. c.f. the recent Wedding Registrar case.”

On the other hand, Christian homophobia has been successfully fought against as well. Maybe that makes the headlines and other fights not; but I have not heard of any Imam taken to task for his comments on gays.

“I would bet that I am more progressive than Flanker or TheIrie on a lot of issues.”

Yeah real progressive the fellow that equates people dying of hunger with a scraped knee.

Flanker, go and play outside.

The grown-ups are talking.

“Flanker, go and play outside.
The grown-ups are talking.”

Surely you realize that the mere fact that you are posting here is a contradiction.

Flanker is enjoying his suspiciously-long Argentine vacation by doing exactly what he did in Venezuela. Shouldn’t he be out exploring Patagonia or something? It’s as though he never left Caracas.

“You are a dogged nothing. You are an idiot who is constantly shown to be a brainless and unpleasant individual. Pxxs off and start your own blog and ‘dog’ on your own.”

Actually, The Irie has his own blog.
http://clearblogs.com/TheIrie/
It is in abeyance, like Benjamin’s.
It seems that trolls find it lonely when confronted only with their own thoughts.

Seems to be a common affliction of those who spend too much time masturbating over the fraud Noam Chomsky.

Glad to see that everyone is ignoring the the noxious emissions from the Fwanker. He’s trying very hard to get noticed today.

He’s gone on holiday.

To an internet cafe.

Bush.
Reichstag.
Burned.
Bush.
Reichstag.
Burned.

This has been happening all over the world.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=87665E6C-B974-49D8-94FF-5EF7DE8119F9

The Legal Jihad Is Already Underway
By Phyllis Chesler
FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, August 14, 2007

When will the West awaken? Of course, I am not talking about your ordinary citizen or soldier but about our Talking Heads and other gate-keeping chatterers who simply refuse to “get it.”

Cambridge University Press not only recalls but has promised to pulp the book that authoritatively documents one Saudi billionaire’s funding of terror; many anti-jihadic writers and all our leading mainstream media have privately apologized to this same billionaire. Only Rachel Ehrenfeld has refused to “apologize” for telling the truth and has counter-sued him in an American court of law based on her First Amendment right to tell the truth. (She was initially sued in London where she lost by default; she chose not to appear in court).

At a recent conference in Los Angeles, sponsored by the American Freedom Alliance, Daniel Pipes announced his intention to start a legal defense bail fund for those who are sued by Islamists and their Western apologists for telling the truth. Not a moment too soon–although, regrettably, perhaps too late for Ehrenfeld. And, The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has begun a process of legal intimidation against my esteemed colleague, Robert Spencer. Accordingly, David Horowitz has launched a legal defense fund for Spencer. I have pledged money to this and advise us all to do the same.

Before this war is over, we will each need legal defense funds. And that’s if we’re lucky. Those in the Islamic East need bodyguards and air-lifts to safety in the West. But there is a pattern emerging in the West which we ignore at our own peril.

For example, a leading American publisher of law enforcement and counter-terrorism titles cancelled Dr. Nancy Kobrin’s book about Islamic suicide terrorism. I wrote the Introduction for it and together Dr. Kobrin and I “went public.” A number of other publishers emerged–but they quickly disappeared too.

I have been trying to find a publisher for a book titled The Islamification of America and guess what? No takers so far. I am ready to self-publish the work.

This is a very special kind of Gulag. The internet provides us with the most sophisticated and universal of platforms for such 21st-century “samizdats.”

We who write in the America are so far lucky. We are legally intimidated. We are silenced on campuses due to the “politically correct” ideologies that rule there. True, the American Jewish Committee recently paid for a full page New York Times ad signed by American college presidents who oppose the eternally-intended British boycott of Israeli academics and who bravely suggest that they be boycotted too. Well and good.

But guess who did not sign? Harvard, Yale, Vassar, California State University at Berkeley, Los Angeles, UCLA, San Francisco State, and of course, Norman Finkelstein’s old perch, De Paul in Chicago. (Maybe I’m wrong, maybe they did sign in a Harry Potter kind of way in invisible ink).

But this is nothing compared to what Muslim intellectuals (and women and human beings) must endure in the Islamic world today. If they are lucky, they live in exile or in hiding and write under pseudonyms. A handful write openly and travel with bodyguards.

I am just told that Taslima Nasrin was, yet again, attacked by one hundred angry Muslim fanatics as she held a press conference in Hyderabad, India, to launch her new book. Nasrin, a physician and a feminist author who was born in Bangladesh, was once nearly lynched by a mighty mob there. She fled her country and lived in exile in Sweden and in hiding. Now, she lives in India where dozens of Muslim protesters, led by three lawmakers physically attacked her and her co-panelists. They demanded that India extradite her to Bangladesh (I guess for the kind of justice Bangladesh has meted out to that other hero, parliamentarian Chadhury, who was imprisoned and tortured because he wanted to visit Israel).

Her works have been banned in Bangladesh. She is being accused of being “anti-Islam.”

Islamists are moving against us in the West very carefully and in legal ways. In the overly revered “Third World” they speak in violence, their speech IS violence.

I hope that Taslima Nasrin remains safe and in India. And that the sleeping giant awakens before we have all been sued and censored into silence.

——————————————————————————–
Dr. Phyllis Chesler is the well known author of classic works, including the bestseller Women and Madness (1972) and The New Anti-Semitism (2003). She has just published The Death of Feminism: What’s Next in the Struggle for Women’s Freedom (Palgrave Macmillan), as well as an updated and revised edition of Women and Madness. She is an Emerita Professor of psychology and women’s studies, the co-founder of the Association for Women in Psychology (1969) and the National Women’s Health Network (1974). Her website is http://www.phyllis-chesler.com.

“Flanker is enjoying his suspiciously-long Argentine vacation by doing exactly what he did in Venezuela. Shouldn’t he be out exploring Patagonia or something? It’s as though he never left Caracas.”

Sweet I never wanted to leave.

Harry’s Place–

I am sorry if some rather offensive, over-the-top blogs made it onto your support list. I admit, the enormous outpouring of support overtook me–I used less-than-rigorous filtering methods as I added blogs to the list. I used assistants to help me as I have been quite busy with other work. In any case, I have taken two blogs mentioned above off the list–one for its overt and unreasonable attacks on Muslims, and the other for its blatantly bigoted attacks on the immigrant population here in America.

You mention NeoConstant is a “Conservative” blog, but I feel that label applies poorly to NeoConstant, just as Harry’s Place is hardly a typical “Liberal” blog. We support (or at least I do) gay rights, immigrant rights, and the freedom to live how people see fit. I personally have no problem with Muslims, only with Fundamentalists–and much of the Islamic world today in its reactionary nature has drifted toward extremism.

I am as much a vocal critic of the drift in American culture toward the sort of Evangelical obstinacy that has led to abortion clinic bombings and assassinations of doctors.

You are right to dismiss those blogs whose values are nothing more than the mirror of those who have chosen to sue you–narrow-minded, hypocritical, and hateful ideas of course have a place in society, but that is only because we have freedom of speech, not because they are at all welcome.

Please, should you find any other blogs on the list that you would like removed, let me know. I will also, time-permitting, filter through them myself and remove those whose approach goes beyond a problem with Extremism, and chooses instead to focus all their anger on entire populations of people, be they Mexican, Muslim, or any other race or religious group.

All the best,

E.D. Kain
http://www.neoconstant.com

I’d tend to avoid using the term ‘racism’ to describe anti-Muslim chauvinism, precisely to avoid having the chauvinists trying to justify themselves on the grounds that ‘But Muslims aren’t a race !’ No, Muslims are not a ‘race’. Neither are Jews. Neither are ‘black people’, who probably encompass as ethnically diverse a body of people as Muslims.

The UN defines genocide as involving ‘acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm

There’s a very good reason why ‘religious’ is placed alongside ‘national, ethnical and racial’. In Northern Ireland, Bosnia, India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, etc., ethnic differences have their roots in religious differences. Even the Nazis decided who was Jewish on the basis of religious family background.

One can just imagine the genocide suspect trying the ‘but they’re not a race’ line in court: ‘But it wasn’t genocide, your honours ! Those villagers I exterminated were members of a religious group ! And we all know that religions are not races…’

Having said that, it doesn’t mean one shouldn’t be allowed to denounce or ridicule Islamic beliefs and practices. Because one should be allowed to do so in any democracy.

E.D. Kain,

Thanks for your support, your comment and your willingness to delete the bigots from your list of supportive blogs.

Probably 50% of HP commenters are blatanty and overtly racist to Muslims. Probably a similar proportion of those on that blogroll are too. There’s not much to debate there.

Hardly blatant and overt racists, and those that are irredeemably bigotted amount to no more than %10 of HP’s regular commenters.

And you’re one of them.

I don’t believe the writers on HP are anti-Muslim racists.

How kind of you.

However, you can make racists statements against Muslims here and you will not be challenged.

This simply isn’t true. As you know very well, the commenters you refer to have been challenged many many times by other commenters on the site. Problem is when these commenters get into wankfests with you and lanker there’s so much bile flying around no one with any sense bothers reading the thread any longer…

But if I was an HP writer, especially one whose mission in life was to eradicate sectarianism for the Muslim community (David), I’d make a little more effort to occasionally defend Muslims against the disgusting attacks on them, indeed acknowledge the attacks on them in the country, as exposed on C4 the other day.

This is a perfect example of how you simply don’t understand the point.

The demonisation of muslims by sections of the media, and the fear and prejudice it evokes in the wider community, is fed by the mistaken belief that the average British Muslim is represented by the political lobbyists and pressure groups who’ve had the ear of the Govt and are invited onto Newsnight.

These groups consistently deny or dismiss terrorist acts carried out in the name of Islam - a policy which is so obvious in its denial that it enrages anyone who witnesses it. It’s these groups whose lobbying has resulted in various ludicrous Local council concessions to a “special privilege” most UK Muslims never expected or wanted.

And from this kindling, a fire of bigotry spreads where urban myths about piggy banks etc are immediately believed and accepted as truth because people like you don’t listen.

Like when the MAB finances Shabina Begum’s court case over her Hijab, and DavidT exposes it as a sectarian stunt that doesn’t represent what most UK muslims want or believe - do you join him in exposing this so that the majority of UK muslims are protected from being associated with the MAB and their ideology?

No. YOu think the fact that DavidT writes about it at all is an example of this site being anti-muslim.

And that’s why you are one of the racists on this site. You consistently defend and protect openly racist Islamist organisations - thus conferring legitimacy on them as representative of all muslims.

This is exactly what people like Alcuin believe.

You could try thinking about that for a while.

There is a large contingent of raving anti-Muslim chauvinists who regularly turn up here and poison every discussion about issues relating to Muslims and Islam. They are essentially the mirror-image of the Muslim bigots on the other side of the fence, and represent an equivalent threat to civilised Western values and a barrier to winning democratic Muslims to the anti-jihadi struggle.

I agree with this Marko.

Interestingly not one of these people would ever describe themselves as of “The LEft”. They are uniformly self-described right-wingers*. None of them are liberal-left interventionists - and, therefore, are not representative of HP’s writers or it’s target readership.

*This is not to imply that to be “right-wing” is to be bigotted. Flanker and Irie are two of the most bigotted people I’ve ever come across and it’s horrifying that they claim to be of “the Left”.

I’d tend to avoid using the term ‘racism’ to describe anti-Muslim chauvinism, precisely to avoid having the chauvinists trying to justify themselves on the grounds that ‘But Muslims aren’t a race !’ No, Muslims are not a ‘race’. Neither are Jews. Neither are ‘black people’, who probably encompass as ethnically diverse a body of people as Muslims.

Oh for fuck’s sake Marko, how the fuck can you possibly equate a set of ideas that are willingly held to something as inherent ans inviolate as skin colour, ethnicity or sexuality.

And Gene, to put it in language you would understand, you’re such an uptight prissy prig sometimes.

There’s an update to the Jihadwatch post -

With customary graciousness, Harry’s Place says our support is “unwanted and unneeded” — without, of course, specifying anything we say or have ever said about Islamic jihad as inaccurate, and tarring us with the familiar “Islamophobia” brush that jihad propagandists and their witless dupes (like Harry) wield against anyone who speaks accurately about the elements of Islam that jihadists use to incite violence. Harry asks if being a clueless dhimmi is a “bad thing.” Yes, Harry, it is, and the fact that you don’t know why is only the beginning of your troubles.

Err… Have they actually visited this site?

“Oh for fuck’s sake Marko, how the fuck can you possibly equate a set of ideas that are willingly held to something as inherent ans inviolate as skin colour, ethnicity or sexuality.”

Because skin color, ethnicity and sexuality are themselves mutable. A person can bleach their skin like MJ, or gay males could have sex with women exclusively. However forcing this on either is racist-like.

“Err… Have they actually visited this site?”

Who cares, just get some popcorn and enjoy the civil war.

One can just imagine the genocide suspect trying the ‘but they’re not a race’ line in court: ‘But it wasn’t genocide, your honours ! Those villagers I exterminated were members of a religious group ! And we all know that religions are not races…’

This looks like a red herring Marko. In the above case the final claim of the suspect would be strictly true, that religions are not races; it wouldn’t make any difference, however, to the question whether or not a genocide had occured.

In fact, the UN declaration itself seems to acknowledge the difference, in distinguishing genocide on the basis of religion from genocide on the basis of race.

Gene, I don’t go where I’m not wanted, if you haven’t already, take my blog OFF of your roll, I don’t need the link, I get more than enough…

And when you Brits are over-run by the Muslim hordes as we are being over-run by the Mexicans, when you have NO place to hang your derby and you are given the choice of *Submit or Die*, you’ll be wishing for a few American rednecks that aren’t victims of political correctness and basic cowardice…

I hope you have time to remember this, just before they lop your head off…

Unless of course, you are the 1st one to submit… And after seeing this piece of crap, I wouldn’t be at all surprised…

Because skin color, ethnicity and sexuality are themselves mutable. A person can bleach their skin like MJ, or gay males could have sex with women exclusively.

It’s just a cacophony of nonsense with you Flanker, isn’t it?

In Northern Ireland…ethnic differences have their roots in religious differences.

Utter and complete bollocks. This is where Marko, for all his admirable qualities when writing about the Balkans, reveals he hasn’t a fucking clue when it comes to Northern Ireland.

There have not been any observable ethnic difference between Unionists and nationalists in Northern Ireland in the last 250 years or so. And in fact, before that intermarrying and intermingling was extremely commonplace (see for example Pádraig Ó Snodaigh’s “Hidden Ulster, Protestants and the Irish language”). In fact, the conflict in Northern Ireland was between two artifically created and sustained (via a great deal of voluntary self-segegration) political traditions.

Morgoth, at least, spreads his bigotry across anyone of faith.

What he fails to understand is that being tolerant of a person’s personal choice to hold a religious faith is just as necessary as any other right upheld in a Liberal Democracy.

SO when he, when pushed, talks of deportation and detention camps for those who refuse to reject their faith which he’s decided is incapable of growth or change and inherently an enemy which must be exterminated… That’s when he becomes exactly what he says he hates.

And every liberal interventionist on HP knows from long and weary experience that the phrase: “I don’t hate muslims, I hate Islam” is the exact same get out clause as: “I’m not anti-semitic; I’m anti-zionist” - in fact it’s worse.

Harry asks if being a clueless dhimmi is a “bad thing.” Yes, Harry, it is, and the fact that you don’t know why is only the beginning of your troubles.
(From ‘Dimmi Watch’)

Handbags at dawn!

It’s just a cacophony of nonsense with you Flanker, isn’t it?

Best to ignore his flatulence.

Morgoth, at least, spreads his bigotry across anyone of faith.

Yep. Because the monotheist religions do, and would if they got the chance, kill me. Its irrelevant if its Yahweh, Allah or Jehovah, they have been an utter disaster for the human race.

That’s when he becomes exactly what he says he hates.

Nope. I want people to become Richard Dawkins for example. Every single person has the capability to become a star. Not the terrified retarded morons that they are.

“Gene, I don’t go where I’m not wanted, if you haven’t already, take my blog OFF of your roll, I don’t need the link, I get more than enough…

And when you Brits are over-run by the Muslim hordes as we are being over-run by the Mexicans, when you have NO place to hang your derby and you are given the choice of *Submit or Die*, you’ll be wishing for a few American rednecks that aren’t victims of political correctness and basic cowardice…

I hope you have time to remember this, just before they lop your head off…

Unless of course, you are the 1st one to submit… And after seeing this piece of crap, I wouldn’t be at all surprised…”

http://galleries.cigarweekly.com/Deriffe/albums/emoticons/popcorn.gif

“Morgoth, at least, spreads his bigotry across anyone of faith. ”

BS I have never read him state that he wants christians or jews to abandon their faith or die/deported/whatever.

And when you Brits are over-run by the Muslim hordes as we are being over-run by the Mexicans, when you have NO place to hang your derby and you are given the choice of *Submit or Die*, you’ll be wishing for a few American rednecks that aren’t victims of political correctness and basic cowardice…

But you’ll have been over-run by mexicans so what help are you going to be against the “muslim hordes”? Or are you planning a Patrick Swayze “Red Dawn” like rear guard of non-politically correct brave rednecks?

Bye…

It is not all sound and fury at Jihadwatch. Robert Spencer’s ‘Blogging the Qur’an’ series is balanced, measured, and informative, relying chiefly on orthodox sources for the discussion. Much more informative and less cloying than the interminable Maddy Bunting/Sardar series at the Guardian.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php

TexasFred must be a pleasure at barbecues.

As a regular lurker here, may I mildly dissent from the lumping of TheIrie in with other members of the “indecent” left such as Flanker, Sonic (is he being held hostage by the Maoris?), “me” and their ilk. He may be boneheaded about some things and he often gets himself tied into knots trying to defend the indefensible, but one senses an attempt to be, uh, well, decent about some issues, including this one. Personally (pace David T) I’d sooner have a pint with TheIrie than Gilad Atzmon.

Thats fair enough.
In a few years time the Irie will be OK.

As for Sonic, is he paying out on bets regarding the Airline case?

”
“Flanker, go and play outside.
The grown-ups are talking.”

Surely you realize that the mere fact that you are posting here is a contradiction.”

You mean you’re not posting here, Flanker?

”
“Flanker, go and play outside.
The grown-ups are talking.”

Surely you realize that the mere fact that you are posting here is a contradiction.”

You mean you’re not posting here, Flanker?

I think people need to be tolerant of one’s choice of faith, but not of the actions that this faith leads them to take. One need not be tolerant of Muslims who spout hateful things about their host nation or about Jews–one should not seek to quell their free speech, but one should denounce it, counter it, expose it for what it is. The point is, we need to fight ideas with ideas….

As for Sonic, is he paying out on bets regarding the Airline case?

I assume not.

Let’s all go to hitchenswatch and heckle him.

“Oh for fuck’s sake Marko, how the fuck can you possibly equate a set of ideas that are willingly held to something as inherent ans inviolate as skin colour, ethnicity or sexuality.”

Because while religion can be merely a set of ideas willingly held onto, it can be a tribal identity. There are plenty of people who regard themselves as Jewish who don’t believe in the religion itself. There have been children killed because others regards them as belonging to a particular religion, even though there were too young to understand any of the ideas behind it.

P.

Someone please, remind me, “What ‘race’ exactly is muslim”? This muslim ‘race’ crap is one of the most ridiculous and ignorant claims that has EVER been made in ANY defense. EVER! Intenionally skewing information and attempting to divert attention by using the ‘race’ card, to gain some imagined leverage, is simply a childish reaction to not having anything concrete or even valid, to hang your hat on.

I have never read him state that he wants christians or jews to abandon their faith or die/deported/whatever.

You’re not been reading hard enough.

I will state it now: All the Christians in the UK should be rounded up and deported to debrainwashing camps in the Hebrides. Jews should be removed to Israel.

Of course any former monotheist, of whatever type, who grows up and starts behaving like a rational person in the space age is more than welcome to stay - I have no argument at all with them.

I wonder what on earth it could be about HP that attracts so many hysterical anti-Muslim hordes and their hate-filled diatribes? Of all places. I ask you.

Because while religion can be merely a set of ideas willingly held onto, it can be a tribal identity.

No. In the case of Jewishness, its an ethnicity, not a religion. Judiasm is a religion however.

There have been children killed because others regards them as belonging to a particular religion, even though there were too young to understand any of the ideas behind it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of monotheism. NOT.

I wonder what on earth it could be about HP that attracts so many hysterical anti-Muslim hordes and their hate-filled diatribes? Of all places. I ask you.

Are you actually wondering, or are you just being a sanctimonious git?

What have you got against Robert Spencer ? He is an expert on Islam - no one has ever documented a mistake he has made about Islam.

“I will state it now: All the Christians in the UK should be rounded up and deported to debrainwashing camps in the Hebrides. Jews should be removed to Israel.”

As long as it is consistent it is consistent.

“Welcome to the wonderful world of monotheism. NOT.”

Well, I’m not defending monotheism, just saying they shouldn’t be rounded up into concentration camps, is all.

I’m Prof X to your Magneto.

P.

Racism is in a nutshell: Dumping all members of a minority ethnic like groups (such as religious groups) into one pile and discriminate against them, forcing “not in our name” is discrimination.

No sorry racism is about race.

“Someone please, remind me, “What ‘race’ exactly is muslim”? This muslim ‘race’ crap is one of the most ridiculous and ignorant claims that has EVER been made in ANY defense. EVER! ”

Very original argument that no-one in the history of mankind has ever made before. Also, extra brownie points for your novel use of upper-case letters and inverted commas to emphasise your points.

9/10.

P.

Well, I’m not defending monotheism, just saying they shouldn’t be rounded up into concentration camps, is all.

No, simply locations where, in comfort, they can have the facts about their belief systems pointed out to them. If they refuse to listen to that, then they are more than welcome to leave the UK permanently.

@Flanker
““I will state it now: All the Christians in the UK should be rounded up and deported to debrainwashing camps in the Hebrides. Jews should be removed to Israel.””
You seem to be quite a moderate Muslim :)

so Morgoth, would you deprive people of their residency or nationality simply because of their beliefs?

“No, simply locations where, in comfort, they can have the facts about their belief systems pointed out to them. If they refuse to listen to that, then they are more than welcome to leave the UK permanently.”

See, this is so silly I can’t even begin to argue against it. I suppose I could begin by pointing out that freedom of thought is the very basis of any free and fair society, but then I’ll only provoke you into saying something more silly, like musing on the colour of the curtains in your hypothetical reeducation centres.

But of course, if I don’t argue against your every utterance, no doubt TheIrie will see this as proof that HP tolerates monotheismophobes.

P.

“You seem to be quite a moderate Muslim :)”

Sorry to burst your thread tracking bubble, but you just insulted morgie.

The UN defines genocide as involving ‘acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’.

Marko, the UN isn’t worth the paper you wiped your rear-end with this morning.

In fact, the UN’s definitions don’t save your arguments, because Islam is neither a race, nor an ethnicity NOR A RELIGION.

Nope, Islam is a fascist ideology, a genocidal ideology, and it IS an ideology because it purports to be able to micromanage every last detail of a person’s private and public life.

As such, and just as with Nazism, Islamism is fair game and attacking it in no way related to bigotry or racism.

Yes, Islam is an ideology, and all those forced to adhere to it ( Islam prides itself on having been spread by the sword!), its victims!

I pray for your Croatian soul, Marko!

Lets face facts, John P…the only reason Christians aren’t throwing gays off the tops of buildings is because they couldn’t get away with it. Morgoth.

Morgoth, when was the last time you attended Sunday mass?

And how many Christian prayers can recite from heart?

I constantly encounter people ( like P. Maloney) who claim to have been raised Catholic and who claim to somehow be experts in documenting The Church’s countless sins.

However, many, though FAR from all, of the sins ascribed to the Christian religion by atheists thoughtout much of the 20th century turn out to be myths.

To boot, in just ONE century atheist ideologies have probably killed 5 times more people that The Church in its entire 2,000 year history.

Religion isn’t bullshit, it’s merely the lesser of two evils because it has the potential to attentuate the worst in SOME human beings.

In fact, the UN’s definitions don’t save your arguments, because Islam is neither a race, nor an ethnicity NOR A RELIGION.

Oooh. Upper case and bold. Must be doubly correct.

I’m not sure why John P finds it odd that I claim to be ex-Catholic. I mean, Irish and a lapsed catholic - what are the odds of that, eh?

P.

so Morgoth, would you deprive people of their residency or nationality simply because of their beliefs?

Yep. If their beliefs are contrary to their residency or nationality.

Yes, Mod, he would. But of course the camps would be up for private tender given the remarkable ability of the free market to produce ‘public goods’ or mass explusions/torture/mass executions for those who ‘deceived’ the knights of light into thinking they had abandoned their faith etc at an efficient cost. All for the Golden Age of Humanity

Religion isn’t bullshit, it’s merely the lesser of two evils because it has the potential to attentuate the worst in SOME human beings.

Oh utter claptrap. Religion has cursed the human race since the first hominid betrayed his humanity and surrended his self-worth to a mythical sky fairy.

the knights of light

I prefer the term “Neon Knights”.

“Religion isn’t bullshit”

As the saying goes, the only difference between theists and atheists is that the latter believe in one less god. And even theists think that all other religions are, to a degree, bullshit. OK, they might be more polite, but that essentially is the tenor of their argument.

P.

And then JP, again with linkless drivel, sans evidence and sans structure.

Just a

Bunch of spaced

out paragraphs

and idiocy

You are Charles Maurras and I claim my five pounds.

and idiocy

He’s a theist. He has an unbeatable head start in that.

Why do you turn away support from Jihadwatch? Is this some snotty English thing? Notice how the right of center people are supporting your mroe heavily than the cretins on the left who mostly kowtow to Muslims in thei worn out phony ritual of supporting poor old third world people.

Why do you turn away support from Jihadwatch? Is this some snotty English thing?

Gene is an American.

John P. and Morgoth are the same person. One with personality disorders.

“Why do you turn away support from Jihadwatch? Is this some snotty English thing? Notice how the right of center people are supporting your mroe heavily than the cretins on the left who mostly kowtow to Muslims in thei worn out phony ritual of supporting poor old third world people.”

From the you’re-a-bit-nerdy-and-not-getting-any-younger-so-why-not-date-my-ugly-BNP-voting-sister school of argument.

P.

John P. and Morgoth are the same person. One with personality disorders.

You’re calling me Canadian? Huh? Huh? Right, outside, in the playground, now!

In fact, the UN’s definitions don’t save your arguments, because Islam is neither a race, nor an ethnicity NOR A RELIGION … Nope, Islam is a fascist ideology, a genocidal ideology, and it IS an ideology because it purports to be able to micromanage every last detail of a person’s private and public life.

There are some aspects of Christianity and Judaism which are similar in the respect of wishing to micromanage every last detail of a person’s private and public life. Hasidic Judaism, for example, prescribes the behaviour of an individual far more than any mainstream practice of Islam. And, conversely, there are many traditions within Islam which are not totalitarian in their control of individual behaviour - Sufism, for a start, and actually in reality the majority of both Sunni and Shia.

And as for discounting Islam as a religion, I don’t think any serious person would accept that sort of statement.

You’d be a much more convincing critic of Islam if it wasn’t blatantly obvious your prime motivation was preference for your own brand of pathetic nonsense.

Yes, Islam is an ideology, and all those forced to adhere to it ( Islam prides itself on having been spread by the sword!), its victims!

I’d contend that all religions are simply a form of ideology.

To boot, in just ONE century atheist ideologies have probably killed 5 times more people that The Church in its entire 2,000 year history.

To suggest that those deaths were in any significant way connected to the atheism associated with the ideologies is ingenuous nonsense. The atheism was incidental to the body count: simple, unrelated political repression and economic mismanagement, neither religious or anti-religious, account for most.

There are few examples I can think of where mass murder has been a direct consequence of atheism. I can, on the other hand, list all evening incidences directly connected with religion.

As I say, if you weren’t so transparently motivated by your own form of religious supremacism, you might be a more convincing critic of another.

As I say, if you weren’t so transparently motivated by your own form of religious supremacism, you might be a more convincing critic of another.

Exactamundo.

To boot, in just ONE century atheist ideologies have probably killed 5 times more people that The Church in its entire 2,000 year history.

Ah, so that’s why Stalin killed countless millions of people!

Because they didn’t believe in God.

I’m glad someone’s explained that to me.

@Marko Attila Hoare
You are perhaps willfully conflating genocide with racism. Genocide is a legal term defined in the genocide convention, but racism is not a term with legal import.
The UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) is limited to discrimination and incitement on the basis of racial, ethnic or national origin. Jews are for purposes of UK law both an ethnic and religious group.and their protected under the previous prohibition on incitement to racial hatred (Public Order Acto of 1986).
But belief is different from biology, and appeal to an emotionalist analogy does not work in the case of adherents to Islam, scientology or another ideology.

And then JP, again with linkless drivel, sans evidence and sans structure.

Yes and you, Socialrepublican, are a Lib-er-tar-i-an….as though I’ve never been there or done that!

Have you any idea how worn out Lib-er-tar-i-an is for someone forced to witness the 60e through the eyes of a child.

Sure! You’re dynamic and and ahead of the game and OH-So avant-garde

You are also the last gasp of a silly decade that so many bought into and which still rules the unwary amongst us…those who can’t remember the decade but claim it was ‘great’, from beyond the grave, as it were.

I wouldn’t be a libertarian if the ideology was a fucking oxygen hose and I was dying of suffocation!

I’m not sure why John P finds it odd that I claim to be ex-Catholic. I mean, Irish and a lapsed catholic - what are the odds of that, eh?

Would you care to re-read my comment, Paul?

I stated that you’ve a tendency to catalogue all of The Church’s “sins”….like so many atheist commoners trapped IN “that” stage of trajet, périple.

Your intellect and analytical abilities are obviously lightyears ahead of those of Tony Blair, Magdi Allam and Edith Stein.

And I wonder, as well, just how many prayers you could recite.

I love springing that trick on those bitter ex Catholics,who never payed attenting in catechism class anyways, and who always claim to *know* everything about Catholicism.

The *know* everything about it, but can’t recite a single prayer.

A hoot!

Don’t bother responding to this comment….I’m off to sin for the rest of the day!!

‘Oh for fuck’s sake Marko, how the fuck can you possibly equate a set of ideas that are willingly held to something as inherent ans inviolate as skin colour, ethnicity or sexuality.’

If children are brought up by Muslim parents in Muslim communities where the whole of society tells them all their lives that the Muslim way is the only true one, I don’t think you can talk about ‘ideas willingly held’. Most people - and not just religious believers - find it very difficult, if not impossible, to shake off the moral system they’ve been brought up with.

Changing one’s religion isn’t any easier than changing one’s ethnicity or language. And a lot more terrifying for many. Any why should one have to, when most religious believers manage to live normal, peaceful lives ? In a free society, we uphold the principle of ‘freedom of conscience’ as a foundation stone of our liberties.

Have you any idea how worn out Lib-er-tar-i-an is for someone forced to witness the 60e through the eyes of a child.

You realise of course, as a gay man, that you have a lot to thank that decade for as well?

The *know* everything about it, but can’t recite a single prayer.

Why should anyone have to be aware of the pointless wankery of the theology of the Catholic Church in order to criticise its actions as an institution?

Would you care to re-read my comment, Paul?

I just did. You said I “claimed” to be an ex-Catholic. People normally only use this construction when they’re dubious of the claim.

It seems odd that you think that someone can be brought up as a Catholic, go to hundreds of hours of religious instruction as a child - and as in my case, learn the Mass in detail as an altar boy - yet somehow miraculous forget all this when you lapse or become an atheist.

I’m sorry if my pointing out historical facts concerning the Catholic Church as a 19th century oppressive temporal power offended you but the occasional reality check does one the power of good. Rather than a “kill the messenger” knee jerk reaction, it might be better to accept the church you are involved in has done great evil.

P.

While we’re on the topic of how people try to make unacceptable things acceptable by simply renaming them, I submit two gems:

1) Morgoth’s claim that there are no ethnic differences between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, only differences of political ideology;

2) John P.’s claim that Islam isn’t a religion, but a fascist ideology.

Brilliant ! Anything is possible ! You might as well argue that skin colours are not races, therefore chauvinism against black people is not racism.

You can relable shit as sugar, but it won’t make it sweet.

Wow, I’m a Lib-er-tar-i-an!

Is there a certificate or some such. Do we have a uniform or a coda of some kind. If there are fees, can i sought them out on thursday cos i’m skint till then. Tho I think Ron Paul might not like me

Or maybe…I just don’t want to confront one form of social control and dominant ideology with one that has already been ripped to hypocritical pieces, Maybe I see parrallels between secularisation in Western Europe and the Islamic world. Maybe I don’t think condemning a Nation as inferior and then making really tasteless jokes about an appalling genocide is really a worthy action of my limited intellect. Maybe I am not in a hurry to blame sky pixie 3 for every human evil and making sky pixie 2 the font of all meaning. Maybe I’m uneasy with defending genocidal regimes who kill followers of sky pixie 3 or spout lies made up by fellow travellers of fascists and organic nationalists.

You can relable shit as sugar, but it won’t make it sweet.

And you can buff and polish the Koran as much as you like, sweetie, but it still remains a turd.

Now, off you go to feed the turks!

‘You are also the last gasp of a silly decade’ - whilst you are a child of that timeless decade, where right was right, evil was evil and the perfidious Turk was at the gates, the 1520.

Before the fads of Luther and the insufferable Calvin, before Locke and Rousseau, before Smith, Ricardo and Marx, Tonnes, Durkheim and Weber, Wittenstein, De Beavoir and Dworkin. I guess you’d find Metternich and the Duke of Wellington a bit too pinko for your tastes

Correction, you are Edward Burne Jones and I donate my five pounds to the Church windows at Middleton Cheney.

Paul M, when people quit claiming racism in the defense of islam, there will be no more people asking what race islam is.

Paul M, when people stop ‘using’ racism as a basis for their defense of islam, people will stop asking what race islam is. Is that clearer?

Morgoth’s claim that there are no ethnic differences between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, only differences of political ideology;

I notice you didn’t offer any evidence or citations to contest my claim. I offered references to support mine.

John P., your discovery that Islam is not in fact a religion, but is actually a fascist ideology, makes you sort of a historical Einstein. All the great historians of fascism have assumed that it originated in modern Europe, and there you are, putting all these great minds to shame, and showing that fascism actually originated twelve centuries or so earlier in early medieval Arabia. How did they all miss what is so clear to you ?

For your stroke of intellectual genius, you should be made a Regius Professor of History at the University of Cambridge. From that position, you should have no problem in convincing those dunces at the Faculty of Divinity that they have no business teaching about Islam, because it isn’t really a religion. And you could launch a research project to develop our understanding of how Mohammed led to Mussolini.

I can see a global intellectual revolution in the making…

Cos Jews are WORSE argument!

There are some aspects of Christianity and Judaism which are similar in the respect of wishing to micromanage every last detail of a person’s private and public life. Hasidic Judaism, for example, prescribes the behaviour of an individual far more than any mainstream practice of Islam.

Really, perhaps you (and Expert already) can tell us how the stranglehold of Hasidic Judaism affects the 250,000 Jews who go shopping on a Saturday or go off to watch Arsenal or Spurs. In fact all you did was quote a religious subset of Jewry whereas the concepts of Islamism discussed here emanate from a single book called the Koran which is taken as the undissolved truth for 1.8bn Muslims.

Ami 15 July, 3:15 pm.

Thanks for your comment.

The site below promises a report on that ‘Policy Exchange’ meeting on ‘libel tourism’ in near future:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/07/haven-for-libel-tourism.html

Sorry Morgoth but MAH is pretty much right. Treating religion as something as simple as badge you can put on or take off at will is, at best, simplistic. It may be easy to shrug off Christianity in a liberal western country but trying to shrug off Islam or Judaism, particularly the former in a Muslim state is much harder. For many, religion is a fundamental part of their identity. You might as well ask someone to go gay.

As far as I know it, the Proddies and the Catholics are the same ethnic grouping. Scotland was originally settled by people from Ireland, and hundreds of years later, many Scottish people (who were Protestants) were taken over to Ulster to displace the Catholics. I am sure Morgoth or Venechka knows far more about it than I do, but the point is the only difference between the two groups is one of ideology and politics. As for not criticising the IDEAS of Islam, when are we going to be allowed to do that? I am just reading a book about Biblical archeology at teh moment, by Israel Finkelstein, I am sure many of you are aware of his ideas that the Bible was written as a political document in the reign of King Josiah and the Exodus never happened. (Sorry if I’m upsetting Shmeul and John P) I haven’t seen Jews rioting over it, it’s just accepted as a perfectly rational thesis. Many, many books have been written questioning whether the historical personage of Jesus ever even existed, and yet we don’t see Christians burning down embassies. I dn’t know if Bhuddism or Hinduisn also allow criticism, but I know that Islam sure as hell does not. I have nothing against individual Muslims, as long as they don’t break the law, but I think it is only right to be allowed to discuss it. When does Marko or Flanker or anyone one else thing, we will be able to discuss the ideas of Islam? Note: I am not calling for Muslims to be put in concentration camps or be deprived of their property or for Pass Laws to be introduced as in South Africa.

Can I just say that Mexico will one day reclaim America? Like in that excellent vodka advert? It could happen tommorrow.

“However there appear to be some anti-Muslim hate sites on this list– this one, for example– whose support we can easily manage without. In fact I would be quite pleased if those blogs would remove themselves from our list of supporters. We have no more use for their support than we would for support from racist or antisemitic sites.”

A cursury examination of this site (http://islamidiot.wordpress.com/) that you single out, indicates they are NOT anti-Muslim. They are anti-Islam. Of all the people in the blogosphere, I would think Gene can make this important distinction.

A lot of the articles are anti-Koran. Gene, If you cannot tell the distinction between the Koran and the person who choses to (idiotically) “believe” in it, then you have fallen into the familiar PC trap and are committing a category mistake.

Jack R: Cheers- I will see what that site reports on the meeting, and then see if there are any gaps for me to report on here at Harry’s Place (or Happy’s Place, as someone called it earlier today: I like that; can we have Happy Hour at Happy’s Place?)

Margy: The Rachel case was the focus of the Policy Exchange discussion.

As for Phylis Chessler- I think she’s great, if a little hyper in her writing- but interesting she went the opposite way to our Yvonne, after she came out of a marriage to a Muslim (Yemeni afair) and a spell living in an extended family hut under the dictat of her Yemeni mother in law.

MarkoAH
…Changing one’s religion isn’t any easier than changing one’s ethnicity

Oh FFS!
Here is example of one conspicuous and utterly wrong-headed premise of those who presume to ‘understand’ religious dogma - esp. pertaining to Islam. People have always changed or renounced their religion, this is borne out by religious textual account and the conferring of edict and punishment for the perfidious. As far as I’m aware, there is no account of anyone changing their ethnicity - through freewill (an enhanced state of ’sprituality’, say) or coercion. Perhaps some anti-imperialist or truther can oblige.

Of all the opinions expressed here, I am probably in agreement with Marko (mostly).

Marko: The people at Engage keep going on about ‘anti-muslim’ racism - can’t you persuade them that this phrase makes no sense?

…Changing one’s religion isn’t any easier than changing one’s ethnicity

Hmm… I would suggest that it is at least slightly easier, given that it is an inherited set of ideas, rather than an inherited set of genes.

Or maybe I’m wrong.

Changing one’s religion isn’t any easier than changing one’s ethnicity

Complete and utter garbage.

A cursury examination of this site (http://islamidiot.wordpress.com/) that you single out, indicates they are NOT anti-Muslim. They are anti-Islam. Of all the people in the blogosphere, I would think Gene can make this important distinction.

Hamid, if that is not an anti-Muslim site, I invite you to point me to one that is, so I can understand the distinction.

as for changing one’s religion, I’ll bet when Morgoth* has finished poking them with red hot pokers, they’ll do almost anything!

—
*In joke:

Morgoth is a quasi-Satanist, one time follower of Aleister Crowley, or some from of Thelemist. Apologises for the lack of precision in this matter, but as an atheist I don’t play much attention to the intricacies of occultist or religious nonsense, other than for the purposes of humour.

Hamid, if that is not an anti-Muslim site, I invite you to point me to one that is, so I can understand the distinction.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to demonstrate what makes the site anti-Muslim (as opposed to anti-Islam), Gene.

Gene,

That site appears to be militantly anti-Islam. I can’t see immediate evidence it’s actually anti-muslim as in I hate people who are born into Islam or I hate anyone who calls themselves Muslim even moderate ones, i.e. get them out of our country type stuff - though I am not discounting that.

Google brings up something very clearly anti-muslim, for example

http://www.muslimsout.net/home.htm

This kind of site clearly targets the Muslim people as one monolithic whole to be derided entirely - as opposed to just the religion.

It’s not inconceivable that the blogger(s) at Islamidiot have Muslim friend(s) who they seriously disagree with, however I do I find it inconceivable that the latter site would have any Muslim friends….

Having said that, the site Islamidiot is clearly very deliberately offensive and positively unhelpful site, in that in can only fuel anger and resentment, when what we really need is a calm confidence in the values we hold dear.

Changing one’s religion isn’t any easier than changing one’s ethnicity or language.

Indeed, this is a complete load of tripe, though it is more shocking coming from an highly intelligent person with whom I often agree.

And a lot more terrifying for many. Any why should one have to, when most religious believers manage to live normal, peaceful lives ? In a free society, we uphold the principle of ‘freedom of conscience’ as a foundation stone of our liberties.

Disputable that most religious believers live ‘normal’ lives, which stretches ‘normal’ to the point of absurdity.

The whole point about ‘freedom of conscience’ is not only that it allows the practice of all faiths and none (though always subject to the criminal law), but also that it involves the freedom to change religion as one wishes. It was the battle over this freedom to change one’s creed in the Christian world at the time of the Protestant Reformation, and later in the eighteenth century over the freedom to hold no faith at all, that gave rise to our present liberties. Time to censure that racist Voltaire for believing that ‘Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.’?

That in some Muslim nations it is only possible to change your religion on pain of the criminal law doesn’t suddenly make Islam a race.

As if racist sites really have that much exposure, THIS is what does:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7507216.stm

I spit on you neocons and your support for this trash to continue.

When has Harry’s Place supported Gitmo you imbecile?

When’s the benefit gig?

Perhaps it would be easier for you to demonstrate what makes the site anti-Muslim (as opposed to anti-Islam), Gene.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to demonstrate what makes the site anti-semitic (as opposed to anti-zionist)…

This is such a stupid, lazy, obvious evasion.

Anyone whose anti-zionism demands nothing less than the destruction of Israel as a jewish State is almost certainly anti-semitic or objectively anti-semitic.

SImilarly, anyone whose “anti-Islam” opinion demands nothing less than the utter rejection by Muslims of every aspect of their religion because it is irredeemably and irrevocably flawed and incapable of reform from within- well that person is quite simply anti-muslim.

And you all know it. It’s not a difficult or subtle concept. Push Alcuin, or Morgoth or Old Peculier just a tad - make them follow through the logical consequences of their stance - and it’s remarckable how quick they admit that if muslims won’t accept their Prophet was a paedophile and stop being… well… Muslims… because Islam is hateful and mustn’t be allowed to exist: well.. suddenly these muslims are in detention camps or jails or deprogramming centres…

Please… yes, it’s possible to be anti-Islam without being anti-muslim. And it’s obvious very very quickly those whgo are and those who aren’t/.

Sue R,

‘As far as I know it, the Proddies and the Catholics are the same ethnic grouping. Scotland was originally settled by people from Ireland, and hundreds of years later, many Scottish people (who were Protestants) were taken over to Ulster to displace the Catholics. I am sure Morgoth or Venechka knows far more about it than I do, but the point is the only difference between the two groups is one of ideology and politics.’

You could pretty much negate most of the world’s ethnic or national differences by this sort of reasoning. The whole POINT of such differences is that they revolve around differences of ideology and manifest themselves in political differences.

And you really can’t distinguish between ‘real’ and ‘not real’ ethnic differences by going back into ancient history.

Ultimately, we’re all just one race, descended from the apes.

I spit on you neocons and your support for this trash to continue.

Libellous

“I spit on you neocons and your support for this trash to continue.”

Not libellous, just mad.

I had a look at TexasFred’s page. It’s great. Within a few inches it manages to cram in anti-gun control, pro-off-shore drilling, anti-Mexican sentiment, a picture of him in a Stetson, and pro-capital punishment, all in a earnest, humourless angry tone that makes reading it a chore. If they stock the oil platforms with gun-toting Mexicans from death row, he can write his final article and retire happy.

It uses a nice red, white and blue colour scheme, because of course to use any other color scheme would be unpatriotic. (Obama probably uses purple on his blog.) It’s like it was auto-generated by Microsoft RightBlog(tm) 2007 Professional Edition.

He’s sad about Belgians buying Budweiser beer. This is a bit like being sad that Porsche have called around to your house and offered to upgrade your Robin Reliant.

P.

“Although I haven’t done a thorough review of all the blogs that have signed up, at a glance they appear to be overwhelmingly on the political right.”

For the correct reasons in most cases, as far as I can tell.

Why aren’t the left-leaning sites giving more support?

AOW.

why? not 100% sure, but I guess that:

1) they haven’t heard of the issue
2) they are none to familiar with the BMI/Hamas or the issues around it
3) libel is not a major campaigning issue in parts of Europe
4) HP might be seen, by some, as the spawn of Satan/Dick Cheney
5) lingering bitterness over Iraq takes precedence over freedom of speech issues
6) siding with HP Vs. Hamas’s rep in London could possibily (remember, I am only speculating ) be seen to be “islamophobica”?
7) overall, I think the reasons are unclear, but you’re right, it is rather strange why Left leaning sites ain’t taking up the issue, a bit more publicity might help as Judy suggested a widget to support HP would be good.

The whole POINT of such differences is that they revolve around differences of ideology and manifest themselves in political differences.

Earlier on you claimed that NI was an ethnic dispute. Are you now withdrawing your claim?

I vigerously support HP against this attempt at intimidation by Sawalha.

Being attacked by Dhimmi Watch or anybody else associated with David Horowitz’s Front Page Magazine is quite a compliment.

MAH:

Ultimately, we’re all just one race, descended from the apes.

Just to nit-pick:

We are all one species, but not one race. Race is almost entirely a superficial, outdated construct.

And we’re not descended from apes, we are apes. We’re Great Apes - along with chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans and bonobos. So we’re descended from other, earlier forms of apes.

But other than that I’m more or less with you.

Why aren’t the left-leaning sites giving more support?

Depends what you mean by “left-leaning”, I suppose.

Nick Cohen placed his support on record in print recently; and Seumas Milne quickly responded with his lazy smears.

There, in a nutshell, is the great chasm dividing “left-leaning” thought.

Somewhat surprising is Crooked Timber’s silence. Their support should be automatic on blogger solidarity issues alone. That Harry’s Place has been absolutely right from the very beginning and is being threatened by clerical fascists who want to silence a blog from stating facts should overcome any enmity between the sites, surely?

I dunno - maybe that would mean acknowledging that Harry’s Place has a point, always had a point, and an important point: and might not be so easily dismissed as islamophobic.

But that would mean acknowledging their own culpubility in allowing extremist fronts with political clout to act as representatives of the entire muslim community…

Maybe it’s easier to pretend it’s not happening

The libel lawyers are gearing up all over the internet:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2008/07/iraq_mercenary.html

“Somewhat surprising is Crooked Timber’s silence.”

surely it is rather predictable?

some CT’s “leading” members have been humiliated when arguing on HP, so a bit of small mindedness probably comes into it, people who argue for a living don’t like losing arguments, particularly to the hoi polloi?

When has Harry’s Place supported Gitmo you imbecile?

More relevant is how Flanker doesn’t realise that by making such an accusation he immediately opens himself to moral responsibility for the parallel world in which Gitmo never existed.

This parallel world isn’t one in which the US chose trial by jury for every detainee of the liberation of Afghanistan… Because FLanker never wanted Afghanistan to be liberated…

SO Flanker now has moral responsibility for the choice NOT to liberate Aghanistan or Iraq. Flanker now has moral responsibility for the suffering of IRaqi and Afghan people under Saddam and the Taliban respectively.

Seeing as both the Iraqi people and Afghan people, despite everything, maintain that the costs of a bungled liberation have been worth liberation - what kind of hell was Flanker condemning them to?

But Flanker doesn’t like to think of the consequences of his choices. He doesn’t ask himself why Sunni muslim Kurds welcomed the liberation; nor why Shia arab Iraqis also welcomed the liberation.

It’s easier to call other people racists while consistently supporting the one group who are targetting both Sunni and Shia muslims in markets.

That’s a lot of blood on Flanker’s head. Requires a great deal of denial.

surely it is rather predictable? some CT’s “leading” members have been humiliated when arguing on HP, so a bit of small mindedness probably comes into it, people who argue for a living don’t like losing arguments, particularly to the hoi polloi?

I dunno. I mean apart from Dsquared whose rather sad and futile obsession with making “cheerleaders for war” from politics and media “pay” (for the crime of pointing out that opposing the removal of Saddam by US/UK forces means leaving him in power for the forseeable future) - most of the CT team remain liberals who oppose authoritarianism, racist front groups and support freedom of speech especially when it comes to bullying attacks on bloggers.

To look the other way on this one isn’t betraying Harry’s Place -it’s betraying the wider muslim community who are constantly being “represented” by extremists and extremist front groups.

SUrely they must see that now?

“(I hope they would all be equally supportive if, for some reason, we were being unfairly sued by Mark Steyn or Rush Limbaugh, but I live in the real world.)”

What a stupid comment. I guess Terry Glavin was wrong about this site.

“What a stupid comment. I guess Terry Glavin was wrong about this site.”

Christ, it’s a perfectly sensible comment.

Put simply, Gene hopes that Harry’s Place is being supported by those who defend free speech, not merely those who defend free speech against ‘dhimmitude’.

Well now. That’s quite a quarrel going on…
In the meantime, I’m going to say a couple of things here.
1. I think Robert Spencer, for whom I have great regard, is completely wrong in his assertation that this is a dhimmi blog. What rubbish. This is an open place of debate. There are many articles by Gene that I would consider complete rubbish, but I wouldn’t call him a dhimmi as he at least gets it about the threat from radical Islam.
Where I would disagree with Gene is to say that the danger comes not from an extremist interpretation (and this is where I agree with Robert) but from the correct and legal interpretation of Islam’s holy texts. That said there is an interesting attempt by some Muslim scholars such as Walid Phares (not, I emphasise those wolves in sheep’s clothing in Turkey) to reinterpret the Koran and the Haddith in order to defuse the dangerous verses. I don’t think they will succeed since obscurantism tends to lose in the end.
The greater long term danger to Islam comes from the Western academic (literal) reinterpretation of the original language of the Koran, which may well be Syro-Aramaic and remove much of the accepted ideas within the corporate body of Islam.

2. Yes, why has HP not mentioned the show trials in Canada? There is now Guy Earle, a stand up comedian being hauled up to one of the Human Rights Commisions for being disparaging about a pair of very rude lesbian hecklers at one of his shows. Excuse me? Free speech?

3. I am SO glad to see David T’s work in exposing the Muslim “moderates” for what they are. Keep it up.

Last point, promise. Keep on telling the bloody trots to shut the hell up. If they like tyranny so much, go and live in Russia, China or most of the Islamic states on this planet.

“Put simply, Gene hopes that Harry’s Place is being supported by those who defend free speech, not merely those who defend free speech against ‘dhimmitude’.”

That’s an equally stupid comment.

“Why aren’t the left-leaning sites giving more support?”

“…it is rather strange why Left leaning sites ain’t taking up the issue…”

Not surprising at all…The left believes quite strongly in placing tight controls on free speech, especially since it’s lefties who are in charge at the Human Rights Commissions (’roo courts) here in Canada. Apparently lefties in the UK are cut from the same cloth too.

And to Harry’s place:
The gratitude you express for the right’s support is absolutely gushing! Of course, you just couldn’t resist the opportunity to sneer at Mark Steyn and Rush Limbaugh, could you. Pretty pathetic.

From:
A leftist no longer, and very thankful I might add

To TheIrie and Flanker.

I think that Christianity is a destructive creed, that teaches that humanity is wretched and the only way to escape our inherent wretchedness is to accept a bunch of stupid, bigoted, superstitious mumbo jumbo. I believe that any Christians who push their vile cult in to the public arena should be challenged vigorously.

But I have devout Catholic friends and family and we agree to disagree. They keep their superstitions to themselves and I keep my criticism as private as they keep their faith.

I love them dearly and I hope they live long, happy lives and are free from suffering.

Am I a racist Christianophobe? Or an anti Christian bigot?

I have the same situation when it comes to Islam. I think it is an inherently right wing bigoted, misogynistic, imperialistic cult based on a badly written book of plagiarized Bible stories and backwards tribal customs. It puts a manipulative warlord, hostage taker, murderer, tyrant (who committed so many sexual misdeeds it would not be fair to mention them) on a pedestal.

I believe that whenever this ferocious medieval cult comes out of the mosque into the public realm it should be challenged wholeheartedly.

Whether it’s proponents are British Pakistanis, white people in the Balkans, Thai Muslims or European converts.

My girlfriend is a secular Muslim from the Yala province of Thailand and my old neighbourhood in London has benefited from many wonderful Muslim communities from Turkey, Pakistan and Afganistan many of whom I consider close friends.

Racist?

Grow up and stop being slaves to the dogmas of multiculturalism and political correctness.

I can see this situation is more complex than black and white, why can’t you dodgepots?

Quite simply I dislike monotheistic dogma not the people who were unfortunate enough to be hoodwinked into believing it.

Muslims and Christians are the biggest victims of these awful ignorant cults.

Muslims and Christians are people who are as diverse as humanity is as a whole.

I don’t hate people I oppose bad ideologies and dogmas.

It is not racist to oppose Communism and Fascism, neither is it racist to oppose the ignorant ideologies of the desert.

The thing is people on the left hold the anglo peoples of the world to a higher standard than they do anyone else.

To condemn Guantanamo Bay or rail against a sexist comment in the work place whilst showing “respect” for the subjugation of women in Islamic communities and seeking to understand the atrocities of 9 11, Madrid and 7.7 shows you guys to be the closet racists who think that people of ethnic background can’t be expected to respect human rights and behave without barbarous brutality.

“That’s an equally stupid comment.”

That’s a tricksy combination of the ad hominem and the bare assertion fallacy.

“I hope they would all be equally supportive if, for some reason, we were being unfairly sued by Mark Steyn or Rush Limbaugh, but I live in the real world.”

Evidently not, since you posit this scenario as though you think it’s a possibility.

“Am I a racist Christianophobe? Or an anti Christian bigot?”

The latter.

“The gratitude you express for the right’s support is absolutely gushing! Of course, you just couldn’t resist the opportunity to sneer at Mark Steyn and Rush Limbaugh, could you. Pretty pathetic.”

Once more with feeling:

- Gene was, perfectly justifiably, perturbed by garnering the support of blogs such as ‘Islam Idiot’.
- Gene hoped that those who had lent their support to Harry’s Place were in favour of free speech generally, and not merely in the context of supporting those that criticised followers of Islam.
- Gene therefore hopes that those who are lending their support to Harry’s Place would do the same were the blog to be threatened by, say, a right-wing commentator. It was a hypothetical scenario, not a prediction or fantasy.

Europe is fucked. Always has been. Too bad The Brit Isles is now part of the Euro plague.
Euroweeenieeees.

Johnny Canuck:
Europe is fucked. Always has been. Too bad The Brit Isles is now part of the Euro plague.
Euroweeenieeees.

You’ll be speaking French before we are, pal.

Centurion06, how can I be an anti Christian bigot when all I do is criticise destructive Christian dogmas and superstitions? I’m not anti Christian, just anti Christianity.

I still fail to understand how people can confuse a harsh criticism of an ideology as some kind of bigoted hate speech.

It seems a debate on semantics is needed!!!

You folks can spin all sorts of stuff about who is more in favor of free speech(right/left) or are we being racist if we say or believe this or that or the Church did all these naughty things centuries ago so how can we rail against such things when committed by ……..
That is all bs. Look at the world, most of the wars these days involve Muslims attacking some other group (Philippines, Nigeria, Israel, Afghanistan, Kashmir, the Sudan) Some of the most oppressive, sexist and religiously bigoted regimes are Muslim, like the King of the all, Saudi Arabia. This kind of pseudo intellectual arguments are so redolent of the same intellectual vegetables who use to say that Communism isn’t bad, its the anti-Communists who are bad and causing these people to behave this way, or that country doesn’t have real Communism or it’s only a bad apple like Joe, Mao, Pol, Fidel giving this great way of life a bad name, or they have to seal their countries off so the counter revolutionaries won’t enter/escape and spread counter-revolution. I judge Islam by the countries it creates and on that count, they are doing pretty poorly. Just compare India with Pakistan and Bengla Desh, cut from the same cloth in 1948. Which country has greater freedom and prosperity? Yes, I know the Hindu caste system is oppressive too. But at least modern Indians are moving away from that. Saudi Arabia won’t let Jews into their country.

I’m afraid you have our support whether you like us or not, Harry. Our wacky kind defend the freedoms of EVERYONE - not just people who agree with us. Try it sometime!

RG

“I’d tend to avoid using the term ‘racism’ to describe anti-Muslim chauvinism, precisely to avoid having the chauvinists trying to justify themselves on the grounds that ‘But Muslims aren’t a race !’ No, Muslims are not a ‘race’. Neither are Jews. Neither are ‘black people’, who probably encompass as ethnically diverse a body of people as Muslims.

The UN defines genocide as involving ‘acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’.”

Etc etc. Marko really hit the nail on the head for me.

I’ve no problem with anyone denouncing hardline Isalmist stupidities - as long as it’d one be reasonable adults. Most of us can probably tell when we’re not dealing with reasonable adults.

It’s possible for us to accept criticism of,say, Israel on Cif by Seth Freedman without having to sign up with nazis.

“muslims aren’t a race” is factually correct but there is the tendency for some to do what “we” do to races: Lump ‘em all together

“Mulsims aren’t a race”: it’s the new get out of jail free card.

Sorry, typos.

Should read:

I’ve no problem with anyone denouncing hardline Islamist stupidities - as long as it’s done by reasonable adults. Most of us can probably tell when we’re not dealing with reasonable adults.

I’ve no problem with anyone denouncing hardline Islamist stupidities - as long as it’s done by reasonable adults. Most of us can probably tell when we’re not dealing with reasonable adults.

Pish and tosh. What you’re doing is making excuses for irrationality.

Those bloody South Carolinas, eh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/jul/16/gay.travel

Morgoth

“Pish and tosh. What you’re doing is making excuses for irrationality.”

Are you saying that some people become totally irrational when they write about Muslims on the internets?, then I agree with you.

Are you saying that any defence of Muslims is impossible because Islam is irrational? Well, see also Judaism and Christianity and Hinduism et al.

Are you saying that any defence of Muslims is impossible because Islam is irrational?

Muslims are at best, like other monotheists, victims.

What’s worse however, are normally sane people like MAH writing utter insane claptrap like when he claimed that beliefs were as immutable as skin colour.

Well, see also Judaism and Christianity and Hinduism et al.

I completely agree. Any belief system that externalises a divinity is utterly and completely irrational and destructive, as history as proven amply.

The reason your website is getting sued is because your lawmakers subscribe to an irresponsibly broad definition of “anti-Muslim hate,” just as you do. By carelessly characterizing websites which are critical of Islam’s terroist fringe as racist, you have helped create and sustain the atmosphere needed to legitimize the ridiculous lawsuit you’re contending with. So on one hand I truly hope you win this case; Europe has been bullied by religious extremists for far too long. On the other hand, if you lose, you kind of did it to yourself.

Cheers!

WHAT IS RACIST, WHAT IS ANTI AND WHAT IS TELLING THE TRUTH

IF YOU SAID THOSE SITE RACIST/ANTI AGAINTS MUSLIM, THEN I CAN SAY QURAN ALSO RACIST/ANTI AGAIN JEWS AND CHRISTIAN THEN…!!!

SO??? WHY YOU STILL FAITH WITH THOSE SITE IF YOUR NON-MUSLIM???

It’s common courtesy to thank people who offer support. You need some manners, Harry.

BenSix:
If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you would know that Mark Steyn and Rush Limbaugh have always defended free speech for everybody.
Wake up.

muslim live in muslim country they will say everything always peace

non-muslim live in muslim country —> ask to them…gene

not only talk shitti

And then there’s this mysogenistic fat budha harassing me- but does anyone care???

Where’s MY support?

Can’t you just kiss and make up with Robert at Dhimmi Watch? I’m a regular at this site, it’s a pity you have taken this view of Robert since he has been sticking his neck out regarding Islamists for some time (based on research as opposed to Islamophobia).

sf
17 July 2008, 4:00 am

It’s common courtesy to thank people who offer support. You need some manners, Harry.

***********

Spot on.

Had I been a left/right/whatever-of-center blogger, who had been given massive (and don’t think blogbursts are inconsequential) support, I might have said this:

“Though I don’t agree with the sentiments of some of the bloggers who pledged their support of my rights to free speech, I am thankful so many stand up for the same principle we all share.”

Come to think of it — given the fact that so many of the bloggers who not only pledged their support, but cold, hard cash toward the legal defense fund — were conservative, what does that say about liberal bloggers?

Where is their support en masse?

Think hard before biting the hand.

Oh, and by the way — I’m the one responsible for the “Instalanche” given to the blogburst. I e-mailed Glenn Reynolds and alerted him, and he e-mailed me back his intention to pledge. It didn’t matter to him — or me — what political persuasion Harry’s Place might have.

Ah, I got lost at the first turn on this overwhelming Place.

I misposted the comment below at the list entitled <> -what a title, BTW.

–

I read this blog has been sued by the enigmatic Mr. Sawalha of the British Muslim Initiative.

That represents the new secret weapon the Mr. Sawalha’s of Europe have recently discovered to use in its full potential: eagerly sue sources of any critical observation.

These days, speaking out critically on their relatively childish & cruel metaphysics may end one up accused in court. Courts that run on HR rules, not in a 1001-&-1 years to be allowed in islamic states of origin.

Cultural relativism, slowly undermining itself.
It seems that indeed, fate is not without a sense of irony.

As for that sueing: sew them for instigating their islamofascist caliphat ideology & fucking up the civilised world in general.

Give them good a anti-fun-da-mentalists show.
Great place this is for just that.

Mazzel tov,

rens wez

Support from Sweden.
Rich blessings
//Dag Sr

Eowyn–

Great points, as always.

Harry’s Place–I agree with Eowyn on this. I spent a lot of time and energy putting together the blogburst, and a lot of people joined up with enthusiasm and spread the word. Thanks to Eowyn it got picked up by Instapundit. I’ve seen mention of it now on the Jerusalem Post; Gawker, and a number of other big sites.

While you were very much within your rights to not want certain blogs on the list, after sitting on this for a while, I think that could have been handled less publicly.

As it stands, the thanks was tepid at best. Thankfully, this wasn’t done for the thanks. This was done to preserve the freedom of speech….

In this day and age, defenders of liberty have to watch the bedfellows. I’m glad that the racists are supportive - it shows they do have some sense. But by the same token, non-racists have to keep issuing statements like Gene’s that solidify their status in opposition to racism. I agree with Irene in the sense that all the non-racist blogs need to avoid a constant bashing of Islam and Muslims. Ultimately, what will end fundamentalist Islamism will be a rise in the volume of claims made by truly moderate Muslims to promote a moderate Islam. We will inevitably have strange and disgusting bedfellows in an effort against certain types of extremism, and we need them in order to keep going sometimes. But as the American Founding Fathers warned, long-term entanglements are dangerous. If we keep to our beliefs, we will be able to withstand some nasty supporters.