Harry’s Place

Touche!

As for engaging with those one disagrees, the Centre for Social Cohesion also had people attending the event, but they didn’t give it legitimacy by sponsoring one-sided debates and sharing a platform with Hamas UK.

Fiesty Fieschi and her colleagues apparantly believe that ‘moderate Islamism seems to work very well’.
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/blog/2008/07/demos_attempts_to_defend_role.html

If you were doing research on paedophilia, would you co-organise a conference with NAMBLA?

Wait wait wait wait wait!

I’m confused.

WHO is it that is sticking it to the ‘liberal intelligentsia’ again?

Yes yes. Statements like this reinforce your “research” credentials:

Is this the most excitement you’ve had in a while? do you need a quiet moment, or for your Mommy to come pick you up? have you learnt too many big words for one week?

Fucking losers.

given the flaky and petulant nature of Dr. Fieschi’s comments, I was somewhat surprised to learn that she was a respected academic and author.

you would never know it from her remarks, as they committed numerous and elementary debating errors.

Not exactly a sparkling example of the intelligentsia.

Seems a bit adolescent.
Perhaps those Muslims who have to “deal with” the MB will pay a higher price than Catherine has to suffer.
Those girls mutilated after MB clerics encourage FGM for instance. Don’t let that worry you too much Catherine.

Second, we’re a research organisation–that’s what we do. Research. We’re interested in the links between violent and non-violent Islamism.
I hope you took some time while you were researching, to research the links between the two men on the Board of IslamExpo with links to violent Islamism through Hamas, and those you see as non violent.
After your research, could you inform us if any of the cash goes to the Hamas men Catherine?

Perhaps yourIslamExpoLtd

One blog is claiming that Demos Co-Sponsored part of the event.
You didn’t give them any cash did you Catherine?

“First of all it’s good to know that the main price we seem to have to pay for ‘dealing with the MB’ is the wrath of the commentariat and the hysterical blog-postings of people whose world seems to not extend far beyond their computer screen ”

If she really thinks that is the the real price paid for dealing with the MB, she is clearly utterly impervious to Cohen’s argument and concerns.

By the way:

“That’s not about pandering, or appeasement, it’s about gathering the material we need to be effective in combating extremism.”

From where I’m sitting, its about providing credibility to the MB. But maybe I am being harsh. This strange, supercilous rant could be a clever attempt to piss all over Demos’ credibility and therefore deny the MB any vlaue from associating with Demos. Greater sacrifice etc.

Catherine, shut up. I have seen nothing but trouble caused by Muslims in every western and asian country that I have been two. At least two muslims on the board of Islam Expo are linked to a violent terrorist organisation - I agree with Tim - why dont you find out how much these B.s are sending to Hamas. There is a link between violent and non-violent mulims and it is called Islam. Perhaps you might like to asks the Buddhists in Sth. Thailand why the muslim thugs are murdering them on a daily basis. And perhaps you might like to ask Sky news why they dedicated 5 mins to the moron Nasrullah.

Wow, Feisty Fieschi. Thought it almost quite sexy until i saw her pic on the Demos website (the views expressed here are strictly my own and should not be used as a means to totally ignore important points and questions put by others in this thread).

Anyway…

Harry’s Place/Nick Cohen preach to the converted?

They are the ’so called Liberal intelligentsia’.

Is the woman totally stupid (rhetorical).

By the way, be assured that she will be reading all these comments. I think (given her rather hysterical rantings about mums and big words) you may have touched a nerve!

What an aboslute idiot. Thing is, a paragraph on the need to engage etc, and the woman would have looked wrong, disingenuous, but essentially sane.

With her response above she just seems like an absolute idiot.

Quite a useful one at that ;-)

In order to pay her due homage, I am exporting my comment from the other thread, and just wish to add here that I am sure our Maddie of the Sorrows would never have comported herself in this unbecoming fashion.

How extraordinary for someone like Ms Fieschi, who wishes to demonstrate that she, at least has a life, to choose for her one and only contribution, to “engage” on the most puerile, lowest denominator of all the possible modes of online debate open to her. And I did anticipate aright, when I wrote that, after Harrington’s weasel use of “uncomfortable”, “problematic” could not be far behind. And she delivered accordingly.

To deal with the substantive point:

“by looking for allies, by looking for people who we might influence, who might be a weak link in a chain about which we harbour few illusions”

What makes Demos think that:

(a) they’ve found “weak links in the chain” with these Hamas/MB guys?

(b) Hamas/MB would appreciate being told that they’re being engaged with, for the purpose of subverting them?

Surely, you’ve just given the game away.

This bears all the hallmarks of the Alistair Crooke argument: that there is a “good” Hamas and a “bad” Hamas. One is fluffy, non genocidal (that’s a reference to their Covenant, which you should read, btw), and near-social democratic. The “bad” Hamas is the one which you see, you know, doing stuff.

You’re not playing Hamas. Hamas is playing Demos.

Oh - and though I oughtn’t to have to say it - I’m disgusted by the misogyny and bigotry demonstrated by some on this thread.

I’ve just read Catherine’s piece on “Far Right Alarmism” which seems to have informed her approach to this issue.

http://www.demos.co.uk/files/File/prospectarticle1.pdf

Catherine.

Do you think that an anti semitic racist such as Tamimi, and a terrorist organiser such as Sawalha, belong with the Kilroy Silks and UKIPs of this world, or the BNP untouchables.

The thing is: Kilroy Silk has a party which consists of him and nobody else. He influences nobody, and has no policy other than “pulling out of Europe”

The BNP and the MB have many members, and a clear programme. You know what it is.

If this Fuckwit is going to stand between us and violent islam then god (or should that be allah) help us, If she’s the best Demos has got they are fucked big time, The muslim groups she is pretending to engage with will make short work of her and them.

“Oh - and though I oughtn’t to have to say it - I’m disgusted by the misogyny and bigotry demonstrated by some on this thread.”

Oh, come, don’t be so po-faced. We’d be quite happy to make fun of George’s thuggish bizzaro-masiculine macho identity, and we can make just as much fun of this petulant woman’s identity too. When one plays to a stereotype of a gender choice, one can remark about it, unless one believes that it’s somehow *essentialist*. You don’t believe that, do you, David T?

And still they won’t answer why they don’t confront the problems of racism, and the apparent differnces between the violent racism of Combat 18 and the legal political party approach of the BNP by co-organising a confernece with Nick Griffin.

No one would object, surely? I mean, they do RESEARCH people. Would we suggest they carry out this research without talking to anyone involved?

I don’t really mind the form of her comment. It’s the content that worries me. I (and I may be wrong) genuinely get the feeling that it may be disingenuous. Demos didn’t expect there to be so much hoo-hah over this, and their flanks have been left exposed by the withdrawal of respected commentators and govt ministers. So they have to think up some “sensible” reason for having been there.

It’s not a terribly good effort though. It’s rather like saying in 1936(apologies to Godwin, genuinely!) “Well, you know, of course we all want the Republican government to win this scrap, but it’s important that we talk to the other side to probe weak links in the chain. It’s all very difficult these connections between the Falangists, the Monarchists, the Nationalists, the Fascists and the Catholic hierarchy, but we need to see which ones we can ally with. In fact, it’s all so terribly complicated, that we’ve engaged in some research, and only us proper researchy academicy types can really be trusted to have a view. Now, will you excuse me? I do have a life and I’ve got to go off and have a public meeting with General Mola.”

The latter is one of the more silly aspects of Fieschi’s comment - that this is somehow a matter for dispassionate and technocratic “research” rather than passionate political commitment against reaction. The government seems to get this; Demos rather clearly does not.

Interesting piece here about the “debates” themselves:

http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/blog/2008/07/demos_attempts_to_defend_role.html

During the event in Olympia’s main hall entitled, “The Islamist Threat: Myth or Reality?”, Catherine Fieschi, Demos’ director, began by denouncing critics of her involvement and challenged them to “bring it on!”. However, during the “debate” itself, she looked bored and embarrassed by the speakers’ uniform opinions, appearing thoroughly glad when the one-sided event finally fizzled to a close.

Separately, at the two day “specialist course organised by the British Muslim Initiative” entitled ‘Understanding Political Islam’ and co-sponsored by Demos, Jamie Bartlett, a researcher at the thinktank, looked equally embarrassed as Anas al-Tikriti ranted to the audience that “fanatical sufis” were “dictating” policy to the government.

Indeed, at one point, Bartlett was so embarrassed by the one-sided discussion that he appealed to the audience to challenge the speakers. However, before long, he had forgotten his role as a supposedly neutral chair, telling listeners that “moderate Islamism seems to work very well.”

Were the debates recorded at all?

P.

Oh, come, don’t be so po-faced.

Sorry, it’s nothing to do with being po-faced; you can hardly criticise her for making puerile remarks if you make sexist remarks at her.

There’s also the point of not giving handing your opponent an handy excuse not to deal with your argument.

P.

This is a point worth remembering, generally

When I read stuff like Catherine Fieschi’s, and the previous post by a senior Demos person, particularly the name-calling of “hysterical” bloggers…. I wonder where Demos gets its funding from? Who is on the Board of Trustees or whatever body gets to do the appointment of its Director?

Anyone know?

Is Dr Fieschi the replacement for the Blessed Madeleine Bunting? Presumably she is. Interestingly her own (PhD?) research was on the politics of the Front National in France. Perhaps she’d care to discuss

This is the one and only post I’m going to contribute to this string of inanities

Oh, thank you for blessing us with your time, I can understand how disconcerting it is to be challenged. I’m being facetious by the way. If you ain’t prepared to subject your views to scrutiny, but prefer pre-picked talking shops, you’ve just received more pulicity than you deserve. You could have ignored said string of inanities, but decided to advertize how much you hated it, before returning to your corner of the playground. Hence the accusation of childishness.

Finally, to refuse to enter into a dialogue with a bunch of bloggers, but do sit down with said organizers and backers of Islam Expo, don’t be surprised if the piss ripping continues.

After I read You’re going to faint. Is this the most excitement you’ve had in a while? do you need a quiet moment, or for your Mommy to come pick you up? have you learnt too many big words for one week?) I thought “sarcastic Bi…..” (once got in trouble for using the “B” word)

Its obvious she has nothing of quality to offer and I hope some of her friends refuse to shake hands with her and criticise her short skirts - although I get the impression anyone might say “No!!!! Not a short skirt!”

“Oh - and though I oughtn’t to have to say it - I’m disgusted by the misogyny and bigotry demonstrated by some on this thread.”

Catherine made a lot of hysterical and childish remarks and I responded in kind.

It wasn’t really X-certficate stuff - see above (nor is it even remotely near to misogyny or bigotry to be fair) but nor was it particularly funny or necessary to stoop to her level. I like to think I could do better. I do genuinely apologise to both Catherine and DavidT.

I certainly wouldn’t want that to be used as an excuse by Catherine not to address the numerous good points made that have yet to be addressed. Her original response doesn’t bode well though…

On second thoughts, is this definitely her? Remember David Hirsch initially thought the poster claiming to be John Wight was so far out that it was a smear.

Very interesting to see that in a 2004 New Statesman article on the Front National, a propos of whether the mainstream politicians should take them on, thereby legitimising them, she wrote:

What has halted the FN’s rise? First, 2002 brought an end to coalition or “cohabitation” governments. French voters once again saw a clear line between government and opposition, offering political alternatives and giving an outlet for voter frustration, disillusionment and anger. And if you look at countries where the far right has been successful in recent years - Austria, for example - you will see that they nearly all have a history of consensus politics and coalition government.
Second, media attention and panicked political reactions have abated - a combination of the novelty of the FN wearing off and calculated ostracism. Hoping things will go away may not seem a very proactive strategy (I can hear half-baked references to the 1930s, as I write) and it is not quite what I am advocating. But the far right has shown a talent for capitalising on the publicity generated by its adversaries’ panic. The far right thrives on upping the ante, and the mainstream parties and the media should not assist it.

Judy,

Demos’ annual reports are here, http://www.demos.co.uk/content/Finance

Matt, have you seen the piccies of Helen Mirren, whom I’d estimate has at least two decades on Catherine Fieschi, in a bikini? Is this helping to dispel any misogyny charge?

looking thru the accounts it is fairly obvious why Demos attended that event.

“Islamism” is seen as the hot new thing in Govt/political circles and as it seems a fair chunk of Demos’ funding come from HMG (or related NGOs) they have to stay up close to things that are considered to be of relevance, either that or they’ll go out of business.

David T, so all of your arguments (or those of Nick Cohen) count for nought when compared with Demos’ self interest, which probably partly explains why Dr. Fieschi did not even attempt to engage with any of the arguments being advanced by HPers.

She’s not really interested, Demos wants to be in the, er, vanguard of those “connecting” to Islamists and thus ensure its continued funding and a place at the big table. It is all politics, the arguments are secondary to Demos.

Fieschi - What an incoherent rant.

For people who as busybodies specialize in “engagement and debate” with those beyond the pale, incidentally on the public dole, they are sure gun shy when it comes to real debate at HP.

Harrington never bothered to answer a single question/criticism - preferring to hobnob with the odious Sawalha. Now this half-moron idealist Fieschi starts the debate by turning off the lights and the sound system.

Nice find Judy.

“The far right thrives on upping the ante, and the mainstream parties and the media should not assist it.”

I suppose Catherine Fieschi would argue that Demos is not assisting the Muslim Brotherhood but subverting it? But isn’t that exactly what everyone who gives the far-right oxygen to breathe through a commitment to “debate” and “dialogue” believes?

One has to wonder about the quality of Demos’s work on jihad when it has published this rather strange paper by Fieschi’s colleague Jamie Bartlett:

http://www.demos.co.uk/files/File/wickedjihad.pdf

It includes this line:

At the moment the “slippery slope” analogy seems to dominate our understanding. This holds that violent jihadi extremists undergo a natural, constant progression: from moderate, to radical, to extremist and then finally to violent extremist. This is misleading: 99% of “extremists” of course reject violence entirely.

Really? 99% of “extremists” (note the quotation marks) reject all violence, including the violence of Hamas and Hezbollah and the jihadis in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Phew.

Apparently film producers, video games, and writers are root causes too, by the way:

Finally, governments should recognise that the appeal of violent jihadi extremism is also partly rooted in popular culture. Consider the success of violent films, books, video games, and music. Muslims with what we might consider extreme views are not really more susceptible to accept violence as a means of action as anyone else. And violent extremists are not just Muslims, they are typically young men, affected by broader social and cultural phenomena.

Yes, under the Taliban, the lack of all those terrible Western things like violent films made Afghanistan a land of milk and honey. Bloody artists, ruining everything.

If this, along with the IslamExpo escapade, is the best Demos has to offer on jihad, one must hope its influence on government policy in this area is nil.

My own frustration is that… even in the acute world of informed commentariat, emotions never figure in ways that are less than patronising and mocking.

Demos’ approach on this bears the hallmarks of Conflicts Forum.

They declared a strategy of building a politically acceptable facade for extremist totalitarian groups, by getting respectable left wing groups to front for them.

This precisely what is happening here.

I was going to write something, but reading that has just made me come over all poorly…

It’s just that I never ever tangle with great big fat ugly smelly women. They can be very dangerous you know.

I read that Wicked Jihad paper from Demos around the time it came out. Basic premise is that “boys just want to have fun” - teens will rebel and so on and this jihadi thing is just a bit of lark really. They’ll grow out of it.

Don’t think so, though it’s fair to say that you do see some Asian youth playing up to the terror image who are probably basically harmless (and other teens from other cultures may play up to negative images of their own cultural stereotypes).

But obviously, that’s not the whole of the story And it was clearly written by someone who has absolutely no understanding of the grip that religion fervor can take on a soul or how religion can be used to justify thuggery.

“And when we were asked to participate, we insisted on a large, public platform to debate Demos’ research on Islamism in exchange for agreeing to organise a single session in a two-day long academic/specialist seminar. That’s not about pandering, or appeasement, it’s about gathering the material we need to be effective in combating extremism.”

And you achieved what exactly? In this two day long academic specialist seminar after they built you a sufficiently large platform?

Kindly publish the results of this wondrous seminar. I’m sure we are all lost for words……

Also a number of civil engineers would like to know about this platform. And what was underneath it at the time.

Seamus Milne: If the aim is to reduce the terror threat and boost integration, boycotts of mainstream Muslim events are no help at all

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/17/islam.race

This is too funny.

Catherine Feischi’s response reminds me of the ‘absolutely Fabulous’ sketch where Edina is asked what her PR company does and she replies ‘we ..well we PR things sweety darling’..

So I googled Demos Research Islamism and was torn between crying and laughing.

Look at the demos people profile, they are a bunch of rather cloistered academics fresh from their masters and Phd’s in subjects such as ‘migration, belonging and emotions, self identity and resilience’ etc who seem to have recently got a load of research cash for islam and violence studies.

No research results yet which is why they are at the embarassing stage of trying to construct an islamic typology without knowing the first thing about their subject, hence their need to lecture as on how not all muslims are islamists and not all Islamists are terrorists islam 101 style.

We could suggest a reading list but the arrogance of going off to islamexpo with the muslim initiative shows how hopelessely naive and dangerously out of their depth they are.

Of course everything is in a state of flux and in the ‘jihadi world of al Qaeda, things get murkey’ they assure us.

The demos website boasts 5 articles for Catherine Feischi;

• Laws, Sausages and Leadership Transitions, Parliamentary Affairs, 60 (3), 2007
• How British Parties Lost Our Favour, Parliamentary Affairs, 60 (1), 2007
• Symbolic Laws, Prospect, Issue 119, February 2006 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk
• Emotional Confusion, Prospect, Issue 115, October 2005 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk
• Far Right Alarmism, Prospect, Issue 108, March 2005 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk
The three prospect articles are unbelievably lightweight (not to say politically and legally illiterate) and ‘Symbolic laws’ and ‘Emotional Confusion’ strike me as reactionary anti-rationalist anti and pre-modern views posing with a dusting of post-modernism.

Mind you ‘laws Sausages and leadership Transitions’ looked like it might have some (unintentional) amusement value but I couldn’t be arsed to pay a subscription for it.

http://www.demos.co.uk/people/catherinefieschi

If this is the cutting edge of think tank research into Islamism, that kicks off with the Muslim initiative in a panel titled ‘Islamism and Extremism a western preoccupation’ (go and tell that to the Persians) then ‘be afraid, be very afraid’.

modernity

You are bang on the money about their motivations its a celebrity/cash thing ‘we research important things and meet important people in the public eye’

I can imagine some people here getting together and writing a book entitled “The Protocols of the Learned Mullahs of MB”. Some people here seem to have really lost the plot. I’m no fan of MB, but that doesn’t mean that I presume anyone vaguely associated with MB is part of a devious dark conspiracy to destroy Western civilisation.

Might I suggest some of you understand that there are different forms of political Islam (or “Islamism” as some like to call it). Not all are the same, and not all claim to have a monopoly over the truth.

It is, however, a tragedy that until recently so many British (and to a lesser extent, Australian) Muslim religious institutions were dominated by people with a history of activism with groups like JI and MB. Many claimed to speak for Muslims, yet few were prepared to actually survey the people they claimed to represent. Perhaps they were scared of finding out that the vast majority of people with a propensity to tick the “Muslim” box on their census forms simply don’t agree with their peculiar kind of Islam.

If you were doing research on paedophilia, would you co-organise a conference with NAMBLA?

Ah, the use of absurdity. You see it a lot here. Apparently the authors feel it somehow “proves” their argument.

I can’t believe Milne is at it again. He really is desperately flogging a dead horse. And has lifted an entire paragraph from his last effort on this the other day. Maybe he feels that if he repeats it enough, people will just shut up and acquiesce.

Also, he appears to engage in blatant lying, saying that Sufis and the Sufi Muslim Council are marginal and unrepresentative as against the more representative MCB. Wasn’t it 7% of UK Muslims who felt that the MCB represented their views? And, in my limited understanding, I understand that one tradition or another in Sufi-ism is the major school of thought amongst Asian Muslims in this country? And they, of course, are the heavy majority of Muslims in the UK. Shoddy stuff. It’s quite a nasty smear job against a couple of Blears’ Sufi advisors, actually. Ugly nuance and intimation. I actually think the man is genuinely evil. Sorry, lobby.

According to wiki demos was founded by the tankies - such a promising begining *sigh*

From the Pickled Politics link:

More broadly - this is part of a discussion on how to engage with politicised British Muslims. Nick Cohen et al take an absolutist approach that basically equates all of them with the BNP and then say the government should ignore them. I think this is not only simplistic, but oblivious to what is going on at ground level. I’ll expand more on this in coming days.

I can hardly wait.

Misrepresenting Nick Cohen’s argument as being about politicised British Muslims (a group into which Hundal lumps both liberals and conservatives) when Cohen explicitly uses the term Islamism (i.e. referring solely to reactionary fuckers) and then describing it as “simplistic”. Ah, the irony.

I would put this up on his site but his ego would have it removed in a second. After all, he’s still bragging about how he “destroyed” Andrew Anthony’s “long, boring essay” (that’ll be his rant where it turned out he hadn’t read Anthony’s book) in a recent post attacking Anthony with an argument based on an assumption about the contents of another book he (surprise, surprise) hasn’t read.

Incidentally, the Cif link contains this rather amusing anecdote:

I had a long chat with Madeleine Bunting once [Just think of the oxygen wasted...]. She is a lot more nuanced and aware of conflicting issues than many critics give her credit for. The same applies to me in many ways.

You’ve got to love someone who stands up and says “You know, I’m a hell of a lot more nuanced than you give me credit for!” Especially whenever they end up out of their depth in a debate resorting to claiming their previous position was a joke or calling the other party “boring”. Nuanced my arse.

Reminds me of an old gem directed at Tory boy (”Well done Tariq Ahmad!”) from this site:

In the public intellectual stakes you rank somewhere between Simon Jenkins and Madeleine Bunting.

Simon Jenkins must be thrilled.

As far as I can tell, part of his problem with them is their failure to equate Osama bin Laden with George Bush.

And here I was with the mistaken assumption that you were capable of intelligent reading.

Why has Fieschi resigned Sunny?

That’s right, Sunny, accusing people who’ve just pointed out your stupidity and dishonesty of lacking intelligence is the best possible way to get your message across. That message being, apparently, “Hi, my name is Sunny, I’m the Benjamin Mackie of Liberal Conspiracy, and I’m such an expert on politics that I don’t need to read any books about it.”
Why not apply for that job that’s just opened up at Demos? At least then we might well never hear of you again. Until you become a Tory MP, of course.

Sunny: And here I was with the mistaken assumption that you were capable of intelligent reading.

You admit you sometimes possess mistaken assumptions?

You admit you sometimes possess mistaken assumptions?

“BORING!”

“Demos is an influential think tank based in the United Kingdom. It was founded in 1993 by journalists from Marxism Today, the theoretical journal of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB).”
Now. Does this give us SOME idea of the reasons why Demos co-organised this disgrace? The contrarian far-left have been allying or protecting anti-western fascists for years.
Honestly this woman is an idictment of modern academia. Anti-modern, anti-western and illiterate. Either she’s a fellow travellor or she’s one of the faithful.

Catherine Fieschi wrote

“it’s good to know that the main price we seem to have to pay for ‘dealing with the MB’ is the wrath of the commentariat and the hysterical blog-postings of people whose world seems to not extend far beyond their computer screen”

How juvenile and patronising for an over privileged member of the multicultural political class with a highly paid job to assume that we are all bigots glued to a computer screen.

I have lived and worked closely with the Somali community in London. I have spent many enjoyable evenings chewing khat and talking bollo with my fellow cab drivers. How dare an upper middle class douchebag like Catherine Fieschi try to imply that she is “keeping it real” while Harry’s Place contributers wallow in ignorance.

I would love to see her liberal toes curl as she chews khat and listens to Somali men talk about real London life.

You need an education in life Catherine Fieschi. Grow up!