Harry’s Place

And could you provide even one informed advantage that Turkey’s adherence to the EU would bring?

For ordinary europeans, I mean, and not some fat, stuffed apatride businessman looking to *snack* on cheap labour…..between visits to his whores.

One sees many comments on Islamist websites championing the AKP and denouncing “white” Turks whom we call secularists.

“White” Turks are concentrated in the western regions of the country and most are the descendants of enslaved european Devshirme.

You do not reward a savage people and a ‘culture’ that have tried on numerous occassions to completely annihilate Europe by opening wide the doors of Europe and inviting them in.

That would be tantamount to Smardar Haran’s widow inviting Samir Kuntar over for a nice spot of tea.

Perhaps ordinary Europeans could vote on Turkey’s adhesion to the EU, provided good democrats wouldn’t consider letting the public speak freely on such important issues a bit too fascistic.

We all know what the result would be, don’t we?

So we can’t allow a fair and free vote!

‘The critics are wrong: It is secularism that is failing the test of democracy in Turkey. The AKP’s brand of Islamism plays by democratic rules.’

agree

John

Gene asked for ‘any informed comments’, thus you need not bother your self. Vienna is in Peril! Run, John, run!

It is typical of western exceptionalism, it is only a democracy if they elect people that are our allies.

What is typical of western exceptionalism?

I don’t know what to make of the current situation. I have heard (and it is common knowledge) that Erdogan is a disciple of Fethullah Gulen, a Sufi Naqshbandi Muslim and founder of the mysterious Nur movement, which mainly promotes Islam(-ism) through education and schools (of a high academic standard, apparently).

Gulen won the recent Prospect poll for the world’s top intellectual, which was discussed here a few weeks ago. Simon Schwartz dismisses Gulen as a cult and likens it to Scientology. (See current issue of Prospect).

The Nur movement is very rich but goodness knows where the money comes from; but it is active in Azerbaijan and Kazakstan as well as Turkey. As far as I can make out it is a smarter-than-your-average form of political Islam, which is non-violent but still aims to colonise the west by legal and intellectual means, by for instance, setting up chairs of Islamic Studies at western universities which will be staffed by Muslims (of their stamp); and by converting Europeans to Islam by establishing bridge organisations like interfaith platforms.

Recently a Fethullah Gulen Chair of Islamic Studies was set up at a Catholic university in Australia via a number of charitable organisations with innocuous sounding names.

I smell a smell but can’t see that they’re doing anything illegal.

“What is typical of western exceptionalism?”

uhh the disdain for real democracy? Zakarias is probably the most annoying proponent with his “liberal democracy” advocacy.

Sorry, that should be Stephen Schwartz.

‘And could you provide even one informed advantage that Turkey’s adherence to the EU would bring?’

It cuts both ways, John. There are religious people in Turkey right now who don’t want to join Europe because they see it as strengthening secularism in Turkey.

It is a huge gamble with highly uncertain outcomes for both camps and since our paths seem to be diverging rather than converging, I’m against it, being a cautious person.

Other than that I like the Turks as a people and find them in temperament to be far more European than ‘oriental’.

You do not reward a savage people and a ‘culture’ that have tried on numerous occassions to completely annihilate Europe by opening wide the doors of Europe and inviting them in.

Of course you mean the Russians.

“White” Turks are concentrated in the western regions of the country and most are the descendants of enslaved european Devshirme.

Here is one of the main supporters of the judicial coup against the AKP, part of which is the Grey Wolves. Are you happy with that?

I had a very interesting conversation a year or so ago with a VERY anti AKP turkish guy. Thinks they’re utter scum.

But, here’s the point. They won the election. They’re not acting like loons. For the Constitutional Court to remove them would be an utter outrage. If they fail, let them fail on their own terms. If they succeed: well good for them.

I know a relatively small amount about Gulen. What I do know, unimpresses me. But then, I’m a liberal and a secularist; and Gulen is a gradualist Islamist and a conservative. I like him no less than - say - Huckabee or Romney.

The fact is that, disruptive and dangerous though creationists, religious moralists, and their ilk are: it does not begin to compare to the damage to a country’s constitution by constitutional or military coups, or civil war.

Is Grey Wolf not one of Sonic’s mates? Thank you for bringing your big guns into the stupid wars.

They’re not acting like loons.

They tried to ban adultery.

The simple solution to Turkey is to partition it - the normal sane secular people should be invited to join the rest of human civilisation fully. The others can join their medieval buddies in Saudi.

What is Islamism ? How does it differ from Islam ?

What is the difference between

(a) the Plymouth Bretheren; and

(b) the Holy Roman Empire

Well, I don’t like them, but there’s a lot I’ll tolerate that I don’t like if it plays by the rules of civilised society. I think I’m with David on this one, but I remain vigilant and sceptical. There was an excellent Radio 4 programme about a year ago on Turkey’s ‘Calvinist’ reformation in which they were comparing the Weber thesis to this religious revival and the industrialisation that is occurring in Turkish cities and I was impressed by it.

On the other hand I can’t be certain that these ‘modern’ features don’t stem from 80 years of secularism! And have nothing whatsoever to do with the current religious revival! I spent a winter in Turkey in 1973 amongst the dervishes when I was exploring Sufism and found Turks to be a very progressive hard-working people with enormous curiosity and drive to learn. We mainly spoke in French. The Turks wanted to know the words in English and I wanted to learn them in Turkish, so we swapped. They wanted to know all about life in Britain, what my family did, where I lived, what life was like, what you did when you went into a restaurant, how did you get the waiter’s attention, what were the social mores, etc. I met some amazingly well-educated women; a woman professor at the university in Beyazit who spoke about six languages including Russian; a very elegant woman who was also a Bektashi (this order lets women in). Another woman scholar and philosopher who lived alone in a wonderful villa on a hill on the other side of the Bosphorous… these women were very modern, and neither wore a headscarf or long clothes. The woman professor’s style was very Jackie-O; chic but always lady-like; skirts never above the knee, but flashed a good bit of leg. The scholar wore trousers and neither were outwardly Islamic in appearance.

In those days crisp white muslin headscarfs were worn by the religious, especially the working class, who also wore the hideous traditional baggy trousers, (a most disfiguring attire) but there was no pressure to wear one. That’s not the case today, from what I understand.

So I remain sceptical that the progressive elements present in Turkey today will not be slowly eroded by extended AKP rule.

perhaps in the same way that European Christian Democratic parties are Christian

and perhaps not. Remember Islam is 90% politics, Catholicism is 90% faith.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali reckons that Erdogan and Gul are trying to undermine Turkish Democracy by stealth:

Bringing back true secularism does not mean just any secularism. It means secularism that protects individual freedoms and rights, not the ultra-nationalist kind that breeds an environment in which Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” is a bestseller, the Armenian genocide is denied and minorities are persecuted. Hrant Dink, the Armenian editor, was murdered by such a nationalist.

Surely the point of modern Turkey was to escape the dead hand of Islamic thought which has not evolved much over past centuries?

Any sort of creeping gradualism back towards a state based on Ismaic law plays into the hands of the Saudis who have poured money into the country (funding mosques in every town and village) to increase the influence of Islamic thought.

Wearing a headscarf for emancipated Turkish women is a relatively recent thing (peasant women have always worn them of course).

The headscarf in Turkey arouses strong feelings in many women who go bareheaded - it is a very touchy subject in Turkey - as it can be interpreted as those women who consider themselves religious emphasising their self perceived moral superiority over their bare headed sisters. Wearing the headscarf denotes views about the role of a woman, the size of the family she should have, how much she should go out in public, what she should wear etc.

Adopting any sort of Islamic dress by the women in a society but not the men, always suggests to me a move towards regarding the women inas different and expected to be more modest, keepers of the nation’s conscience and morality etc. From here it but a short step to denying them the same opportunities as the men.

I have no doubt the army and the entrenched establishment is corrupt, all settled establishments are to a greater or lesser degree, but if Turkey is to enter Europe it has to be a state in which the secular law has the upper hand. There is no way we could absorb any state committed to making laws based on even a modified form of sharia compatible with universal human rights. I suspect the military realise this.

Algeria sadly typifies this sort of dilemma. How can you reconcile democracy and Islam, if the state’s constitution mandates regular electioins and then the party elected then declares further elections to be non Islamic, and cancels them. Civil war seems to be the inevitable outcome.

Very perceptive, Mrs Ben. Turkey lies at a cross-roads. I don’t know what is best for us to do. I agree we can’t absorb a state heading in an Islamist direction, and I think the Islamists also realise that. I think they realise they are not yet strong enough to Islamise Europe (complete what they failed at in 1683?) and that their entry into Europe will therefore end in us secularising them.

Can we just junk the idea that “If it’s democratic it’s OK”. Hitler was democratically elected after all now wasn’t he? While some Islamicists are prepared to play the democracy game, just like the mono-testiculated Austrian, they are playing to ultimately win and to claim a legitimacy for permanently dismantling the whole edifice and going back to the demented ravings of Big Mo. Ataturk was a great enough man to realise quite what a cluster-fuck the dead-hand of Islam is in any society.

There is one good point to Turkey joining the EU though. It would blow the whole pathetic ensemblage to kibbles and bits. If at that point the UK didn’t leave it would be time to raise the black flag and disembowel everyone in parliament. And make their supporters eat the beshitted offal and call it good otherwise they’d suffer pain and indignity beyond rational belief.

There is no democratic right of the EU people to keep 75 million Muslim Turks out of the European Union; and there is no democratic right of British people to prevent an untold number of such Turks (1 million?, or as many as want to come, to reside in the UK) from coming here to reside.

The EU’s Islamisation of Europe is gathering speed; the ‘Eurabia’ project is well under way (as Bat Ye’Or argues in her books), and Labour’s Brown-Miliband-Murphy axis will keep up its campaign for Turkey’s entry, oblivious to the Islamic jihad and sharia possibilites and oblivious to the example of Turks in Germany.

The difference between the FIS in Algeria and the AKP is that the AKP have widened personal freedoms since they got into power and have signed the SAA with Europe. They also have this habit of returning to the electorate for fresh elections.

And the European record of the self-styled secularists? Well, there’s the coup of 1960, the coup of 1971, the coup of 1980…

Jack;

You really do have a case of burqas-under-the-bed don’t you? I don’t know where this deep sat paranoia about a conspiracy (led by Gordon Brown and David Miliband?!) to create “Eurabia” comes from but it’s obviously a special place all of your own as it has nothing - nothing - to do with the reality of the situation. The idea that Turks - of all people - have a collective plan to create a Caliphate in Europe is a nonsense, and anyone with the most marginal grasp of politics would know this.

David, Gene et al, as you know, myself and my co-bloggers at Shiraz have backed HP up against threats in the recent past, and we would do so again. But allowing your comments boxes to become infested by these sub-Oriana Fallaci ranters rather gives ammunition to your enemies, does it not?

The difference between the FIS in Algeria and the AKP is that the AKP have widened personal freedoms since they got into power and have signed the SAA with Europe. They also have this habit of returning to the electorate for fresh elections.

Interesting you should say this as the Guardian has been running a series of article suggesting that in recent years the AKP has been turning back to a more traditional and repressive and hence less democratic view of Islam.

See http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/08/turkey.islam

‘David, Gene et al, as you know, myself and my co-bloggers at Shiraz have backed HP up against threats in the recent past, and we would do so again. But allowing your comments boxes to become infested by these sub-Oriana Fallaci ranters rather gives ammunition to your enemies, does it not?’

Don’t be mischevious!

David has made his position quite clear here on this thread: he thinks the AKP are acting democratically and sees no warrant for this proposed action.

There is a lot of well-justified fear around and people have a right to voice it. The consensus of this thread is: ‘we don’t really know; but we can’t see any obvious reasons for proscribing the AKP and it would be undemocratic’.

“Well justified” fear of Turks at the gates of Vienna? Bollocks.

Re-read Jack’s comment and the previous one, and show me a single “well justified fear” with any grounding in sane or rational reality, whatsoever. Go on, I dare you.

Jack R
“The EU’s Islamisation of Europe is gathering speed; the ‘Eurabia’ project is well under way (as Bat Ye’Or argues in her books), and Labour’s Brown-Miliband-Murphy axis will keep up its campaign for Turkey’s entry, oblivious to the Islamic jihad and sharia possibilites and oblivious to the example of Turks in Germany.”

Dont worry Jack the Elders of Zion will stop them

Alcuin

“Ayaan Hirsi Ali reckons that Erdogan and Gul are trying to undermine Turkish Democracy by stealth:”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a loon, a self confessed liar and totally clueless.
Apparently in her world the democratically elected party (on 47% of the vote) which has massively expanded rights for Turks and Kurds is undermining democracry while an unelected military which overthrows elected parties is its defencder.

“Bringing back true secularism does not mean just any secularism. It means secularism that protects individual freedoms and rights, not the ultra-nationalist kind that breeds an environment in which Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” is a bestseller,”

Assuming thats true what does that have to do with AKP?
Hirsi Ali and Fallacis books are also best sellers- are the governements in those countries responsible for that?

” the Armenian genocide is denied and minorities are persecuted.”

Ms Ali will find that the Armenian Genocide is far more vehemneylt denied by the secularfascist generals than anyone -and that AKP has done more and has more support from minorities like the Kurds than the Turkish military she backs

“Hrant Dink, the Armenian editor, was murdered by such a nationalist.”

And thats the AKP fault? This woman is nuts.

She clearly knows nothing about Turkey- why do people pay any attention to her?

Mrs Ben, you might like to tell the Kurds of your concerns. You can do so in Kurdish, if you like, which was illegal before the AKP came to power. My Turkish teacher was jailed and tortured for trying to form a socialist party and for violating Article 301 for ‘insulting Turkishness.’ He had no legal redress. Now his political work is deemed unexceptionable and Article 301, though a long way from perfect, has been amended to avoid the catch-all the generals made it. Indeed, Article 301 and the army’s attempt to prevent people say what they think is at the heart of this struggle.

Secularism does not always equal human rights. As far as the army’s concerned, the EU and the UDHR can go fly a kite. I feel it’s about time civilians had the upper hand in running Turkey; and if they’re ones who continue to return to the electorate, that seems good to me.

I would very gladly welcome Turkey in EU. The EU has had a very positive role in securing democratization and assuring that there is not stepping back. Portugal and Spain made european integration their (our) major goal, as we got rid of our fascist regimes, so that we could make sure that there would be no return to the old regimes.

The same applies to Turkey.

It is a big challenge to integrate Turkey. But the EU defined its criteria, the Copenhagen criteria. When Turkey fills those criteria, there is no reason to stay out other than racism. Not even culture, because turkish culture is a european culture on its own right, no matter what people from north-wester europe mey think about it, they don’t have the monopoly over european culture.

Until Turkey meets the criteria, it is our duty as citizens who benefit from the fact that we live in the part of the world where Human Rights and quality of life is best to be solidary and support the turkish democrats. After all, shouldn’t we extend to others what we believe is good for ourselves?

ah, the comparison between the algerian islamists of FIS and AKP is disgusting.

Pabuski:

may I remind you that the culture that you claim to have tried to annihilate european culture was the one that accepted to receive the Iberian Jews thus saving lots of lives, because otherwise their most probable destiny was to be burned alive in the holy fires of the holy inquisition.

Peole love to remember the oppressive character of the Ottoman Empire, which was indeed oppressive, but systematically forget to remember that in the rest of Europe, the other empires were just as oppressive if not worse. the difference is that their colonies were not in Europe but in other continents, so it becomes less visible. As the portuguese and the spanish were getting rid of their jews, they were also exterminating the natives from Central and South America, enslaving the survivors, bringing african slaves, and systematically raping the native and african girls.

To my knowlege, this did not prevent Portugal and Spain from joining the european process, thus boosting development but also and becoming positive contributors to the process.

I mention Portugal and spain, because it’s my region. Almost all of the european states have skeletons in their closets.