Harry’s Place

I doubt the last bit, Sarkoz has already promised more troops for Afghanistan.
If he could charm Merkel into letting the German troops go out after dark it would be worthwile.

PS
Gene, I’ve money on Biden to be VP.
Am I a fool?

Gene, I’ve money on Biden to be VP.
Am I a fool?

If I were a betting man, that’s where my money would be.

I’m afraid Obama’s tour is likely to be overshaddowed by the whirling ball of charisma that is our dear PM visiting Iraq. O-who-a? Look look its Gordon!

And what’s so special about Obama? Oh yes, change, change for the better or worse? Let’s see higher taxes, trade protectionism, higher minimum wage e.t.c FDR’s 1930’s re-hashed Great Depression era policies, and we all know how that turned out don’t we???

What is the point of this ridiculous post? The only thing much-anticipated is the fawning and uncritical media coverage that this tour is likely to receive.

The interesting question is just how supine the American media (and the BBC) will be in their wall-to-wall coverage:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/17/america/17anchors.php

HP is very good in its coverage of British affairs, but the coverage from the US seems to revolve around press releases from the Obama campaign. No doubt Gene will be keeping us up to date with more on interesting subjects such as how many people turned out to watch the greatest political opportunist since WJC.

Gene, I’ve money on Biden to be VP.
Am I a fool?

Neil Kinnock will be pleased at the prospect of being brought out of retirement.

At least Biden is reasonably sound on foreign policy.

I think this captures the spirit of the trip.

You have some competition, Gene.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/time_publishes_definitive_obama

Mmm, the MSM really are falling over each other to crown him king already aren’t they ? Funny how it’s so often the same people who bitch about Fox taking a line who seem to think this is all fair dinkum.

Gene, why do you suppose Barack Obama asked not Joe Biden, but Senator Chuck Hagel to accompany him on his tour?

It wouldn’t be because Biden may be considered not anti-Israel enough/too pro-Israel for both Obama’s foreign audiences (except in Israel) and for the Walt and Mearsheimer contingent of the Democratic Party, would it?

Did Prime Minister al-Maliki just cut the heart out of John McCain’s campaign?

Er, looks like Maliki just proved that John McCain’s courageous support for the troop surge was spot on, and also that those who supported the removal of Saddam have been vindicated.

Now which Presidential Candidate opposed both the intervention and tried to block the surge? Oops.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566852,00.html
So far the Americans have had trouble agreeing to a concrete timetable for withdrawal, because they feel it would appear tantamount to an admission of defeat. If we come to an agreement, it is not evidence of a defeat, but of a victory, of a severe blow we have inflicted on al-Qaida and the militias….

Saddam waged wars against Iran and Kuwait, and against Iraqis in the north and south of his own country, wars in which hundreds of thousands died. And he was capable of instigating even more wars. Yes, the casualties are great, but I see our struggle as an enormous effort to avoid other such wars in the future.

According to the Time reporter, work on the profile was often harder than he had anticipated, with Obama at times dodging questions about whether or not he played a musical instrument, and about what Monopoly piece he thought best represented his candidacy and why.

Added Sherwood, “It’s all about getting the factoids out in the open.”

Ha ha

Actually, I think the Iraq developments may be bad news for the Obama camp. Polls show that if Bush said it’s shining outside, people will rush indoors to get out of the rain.

Bush is now saying that we need a timetable to withdraw from Iraq. That must mean it’s a bad idea. Obama is saying… well, we’ll see what Obama says when he gets back.

Regards,

Inna

It astounds me how the MSM glosses over all the aspects of Obama that would ensure he’ll be lucky to get 20% of the vote.

He’s a liar. He has changed his policies on a daily basis and has a wife who has only become proud of Amrica in the last six months. He denies his Muslim upbringing for political expediency and he has exhibited racist tendencies against White people.

Listen to USA radio about 2 hrs a day and its only the right-wing commentators who are exposing him.

He’s going to lose it on the last bend. Republicans have only just started their advertising campaign.

Gene, why do you suppose Barack Obama asked not Joe Biden, but Senator Chuck Hagel to accompany him on his tour?

It wouldn’t be because Biden may be considered not anti-Israel enough/too pro-Israel for both Obama’s foreign audiences (except in Israel) and for the Walt and Mearsheimer contingent of the Democratic Party, would it?

No, it wouldn’t.

Listen to USA radio about 2 hrs a day and its only the right-wing commentators who are exposing him.

Maven, it seems you think that satirical New Yorker cover hit the nail on the head. If your opinion of Obama is based on listening to two hours a day of rightwing talk radio, I can understand that.

If your opinion of Obama are based on listening to two hours a day of rightwing talk radio,

As opposed to the virtual deification of him by the MSM?

What next Gene, will you be saluting his strength, his courage, his indefatigability, until Washington DC?

Get your head out of Obama’s arse, Gene. Its pathetic.

Morgoth, you cannot tell Gene or anyone else what to do, you pathetic middle-class nobody (TM).

He has changed his policies on a daily basis and has a wife who has only become proud of Amrica in the last six months

No he doesn’t.

Morgoth, you cannot tell Gene or anyone else what to do

Drunk much of the Obamessiah’s Kool-Aid, Alec?

No he doesn’t.

Oh yes he has.

Morgoth–

This is one election in which everyone has to make up their own mind. There are waay too many issues with both candidates–which normally would not be such a big deal. They’re all politicians and we have survived far worse than either of them. But this just may be the most important election in my lifetime at least.

If Gene is certain that Obama is the right man for the job, I can only envy him his conviction.

Regards,

Inna

If Gene is certain that Obama is the right man for the job, I can only envy him his conviction.

What Gene is displaying is not conviction, but irrational blind faith, more suitable for following a football team rather than a politician.

As for the Obamessiah, I can only agree with John McCain on him:

My opponent, Senator Obama, announced his strategy for Afghanistan and Iraq before departing on a fact-finding mission that will include visits to both those countries. Apparently, he’s confident enough that he won’t find any facts that might change his opinion or alter his strategy. Remarkable.

This was Spencer Ackerman today on the Spiegel article, which, of course, Maliki’s now reputiated:

“The Iraq war is and has always been an obscenity, a filthy lie born of avarice and lust for power masquerading as virtue. This is what imperialism looks like. But the age of empire is over. The same hubris that led Bush into the Iraq disaster led him to miscalculate, again and again, over how to entrench it. But now he is impotent, unable to impose his will, and the nakedness of his attempted imposition has led the American and the Iraqi peoples to wake up and end his nightmare. May his war-crimes prosecutor be Iraqi; may his judge be American; and may he die in the Hague.”

Now that’s some postmodernism for you!

More here:

“Epitaph for Imperialism? Or, the Death of President Bush Foretold”:

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/epitaph-for-imperialism-or-death-of.html

What Europe hates about America, apparently, is what it loves about America. Coke and cheeseburgers, Malibu Barbi and hip-hop; t & a, comic book and car crash movies; gifted hack machine politicians in well cut suits with with fingers to wind, declaiming nonsense like ‘we are the change we have been waiting for” and pledging ardent vacuous nothings about “change.”

We concealed-carrying, snake-dancing Americans know exactly who this guy is, and many of us will vote for him, on his true merits. And those of us who do will laugh, along with those of us who didn’t, at the niafs who swarmed him, on his European media tour.

“What Gene is displaying is not conviction, but irrational blind faith, more suitable for following a football team rather than a politician.”

No, I think Gene is displaying conviction that Obama is the best man for what will be an enormously difficult presidency.

And look–if it makes you feel any better, I personally am conviced that Whoever will win in November will be a one-term president.

Regards,

Inna

Morgoth,
What is it about McCain that appeals to you?

Inna you may be right.However,if the Republianc lose, I think a serious period of infighting may follow.

What is it about McCain that appeals to you?

He’s got the right policies on Iraq and on Iran. The Obamessiah’s equivalents are utterly disastrous.

A curiosity from Reuters:

The BAGHDAD item headlined “Iraqis say they like Obama, divided on his policies” is withdrawn. The story was transmitted in error.

McCain shifted his policy on both Iraq and Iran on Friday to move closer to Obamas.
Keep up.

Further update: the real powers that be in Iraq, i.e. the US, crack the whip when their client says the wrong thing. How can that have been a mistranslation/misunderstanding - its clear as day what he said.

make the “the Bush administration” not “the US”.

Anita S:
Let’s see higher taxes, trade protectionism, higher minimum wage e.t.c FDR’s 1930’s re-hashed Great Depression era policies, and we all know how that turned out don’t we???

They ended the Great Depression and made the US the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth.

Hang on, I’m not American, I don’t want that. Vote McCain!!!1!

Ibnaz:
Gene, why do you suppose Barack Obama asked not Joe Biden, but Senator Chuck Hagel to accompany him on his tour?

Isn’t it customary to have representatives from both parties on these tours? You did know Hagel’s a Republican, didn’t you?

Maven:
He’s a liar.

When has he lied?

(And given the claims you went on to make, what on Earth made you think that you could get away with calling anyone else a liar?)

He has changed his policies on a daily basis

As does McCain. As do almost all Presidential candidates. If he didn’t, he’d be Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich - a noble joke.

and has a wife who has only become proud of Amrica in the last six months.

Oh yes, let’s focus on the wives, shall we?

He denies his Muslim upbringing

He didn’t have a Muslim up-bringing.

for political expediency and he has exhibited racist tendencies against White people.

When? What?

Listen to USA radio about 2 hrs a day and its only the right-wing commentators who are exposing him.

Lying about someone, smearing them, making up complete and utter rubbish about them, is not exposing them - it’s exposing yourself.

Were Obama white, people would see how mediocre he really is.

In the minds of white liberals, however, skin colour appears to forgive all.

Obama does not inspire confidence, his political record….what little of it there is…. is just pathetic.

His flip-flops on a whole variety of issues means he really doesn’t have solid ideas, but rather chooses to just play it by ear.

The next four years are going to be extremely difficult for the U.S….probably the most critical four years of the past 50, and Obamessiah just doesn’t have what it takes to deal with that.

That said, I’m not particularly hot on McCain either. He may be a hawk and have more political experience, but at 71 he’s too damned old and dotty to do the job effectively.

Even Ronald Reagan was younger, having been inaugurated when still *only* 69.

One other thing, Gene’s slavish, true-believer devotion to Obama, and his astounding ability to just pass right over the major gaffs and the idiotic public statements of the Obama camp, sans commentaire, is hardly flattering for someone who prides himself on nuance and good judgement.

Why the complete abdication of all critical thought when it comes to Obama, Gene?

I find myself in agreement with John P - probably for the first time.

Obama does not inspire confidence, his political record….what little of it there is…. is just pathetic.

Obama appears to be some kind of affirmative action candidate. The bar has been set so low for him that his vacuous policy-lite statements are treated as divine revelations. He is a standard Chicago-machine Pol with a track record of inconsequence and vacillation.

Yet Gene treats his every vagary as wisdom. Is it some sort of racism that makes you expect so little?

Re Michelle Obama.

So Gene now thinks that getting an affirmative action pass to Princeton is on a par with spending years being tortured in a rat hole in the jungle?

Ass

You proud of your country, Gene? Do does it take being the wife of a presidential candidate for you to become proud of it?

If I was a Republican supporter I wouldn’t particularly want to bring the wives into it.
Given Cindy’s druga addiction and theft from her charity

Given Cindy’s druga addiction and theft from her charity

Imagine if that had been part of Michelle Obama’s background.

Mrs. Obama seems to be taking a lower profile. It’s not surprising.

Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.

I agree with John P as well. This election is clearly all about race.

My only hope is that Obama gets elected, has a decent term or two and then we can get back to judging people on their merits instead of the novelty interest in a “black president”.

There is something distinctly affirmative action-like about this election and that is not a good thing for a democracy.

Its a poor parody of a Kennedy speech Mesquito.
But its not exactly drug addiction or theft from your own charity is it.
And remember, neither is a candidate.

When they stand up we will stand down…Remember that.
Events driven withdrawal. NOT claendar driven withdrawal.

McCain on Iraq Withdrawal “Time Horizon”
McCain spokeswoman Nicolle Wallace said the following in Detroit, Mich. about the White House’s announcement that U.S. and Iraqi officials would set a “time horizon” for the eventual withdrawal of troops from Iraq:

By the time of the Elction there’ll be little difference between them

If I were a German, I’d be feeling pissed off with Obama’s ignorance before he’d even set foot in the country.

See here:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,566920,00.html

The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German (racial) superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France

You seem to have mistakenly added the word racial to the der spiegal report.

Yes, shame on Obama for not taking the trouble to see if the monument he’s going to speak at is one that Germans have left standing despite apparently believing that it is a positive symbol of their own Nazi past. That really is a mistake on Obama’s part, and not Germany’s.

“The Iraq war is and has always been an obscenity, a filthy lie born of avarice and lust for power masquerading as virtue. This is what imperialism looks like. But the age of empire is over. The same hubris that led Bush into the Iraq disaster led him to miscalculate, again and again, over how to entrench it. But now he is impotent, unable to impose his will, and the nakedness of his attempted imposition has led the American and the Iraqi peoples to wake up and end his nightmare. May his war-crimes prosecutor be Iraqi; may his judge be American; and may he die in the Hague.”

I don’t know who the bloke is who wrote this, but he shows real brilliance of the “advancing to the rear” variety. The so-called anti-imperialists have always said that the Americans would stay forever and pinch the oil. Whereas, now that it seems that the genuine anti-imperialists were right—that is, that the imperialists had neither the capability nor the desire for long-term occupation of Iraq, and that they would pay for the oil on a mutually beneficial commercial basis, as dictated by their long-term interests, correctly perceived bty the neocons—the fake lot appear to be “adjusting the narrative” to show that they were right from the start. Funnier than the Decentopedia scibbler, certainly–probably because he’s not trying.

Meanwhile, Obama really needs to get to the bottom of this:

The Palestinian Authority’s official news agency Wafa says Israel is using rats to drive Arab families out of their homes in the Old City of Jerusalem.

In the past the news agency, which is controlled and funded by PA President Mahmoud Abbas’s office, has accused Israel of using wild pigs to drive Palestinians out of their homes and fields in the West Bank. In the reports, Palestinians were quoted by the agency as saying that they had seen Israelis release herds of wild pigs, which later attacked them.

But this is the first time that Palestinians have spoken of rats being used against them.

The Jersalem Post

If you’re going to bring up symbolic faux pas during an American politician’s visit to Germany, I don’t think anything will top Ronald Reagan’s paying tribute to German war dead at a military cemetery that included the graves of 49 SS soldiers.

The Brandenburg Gate was used extensively in Nazi imagery.
Reagan and Clinton should apologise.

From your link, Gene:

“We do not believe in collective guilt.[consistent with HP, no?] Only God can look into the human heart,” Reagan said in a 15-minute speech at the base.
…

To the survivors of the Holocaust, he said, “Many of you are worried that reconciliation means forgetting. I promise you, we will never forget.”

What was your problem again? Where’s the faux pas?

tim - no mistake: hence why I added it in brackets, dimwit. Like Obama, perhaps you are ignorant of the Fuehrer’s theories behind german supremacy.

The Obamatrons understood perfectly well the symbolism of the Brandenberg Gate, but now we are to assume that they had no clue about the Siegessaule.

Perhaps he should have made the speech at the site his Soviet uncle liberated which was once in the Reich too. After all, a bit of shameless historical invention is what the Obama campaign is all about:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65577

The significance of the Brandenburg gate in Nazi symbolism you mean, or the symbolism of Reagan and Clinton speaking there?

PS. Auschwitz was never in the Reich.
Buchenwald was not liberated by the Soviets.
Confused?

What was your problem again? Where’s the faux pas?

I can’t say what was in the heart of every German soldier during WWII, but I think I can say with some certainty that those recruited to serve in the SS had at least an idea of what they were getting into.

As I remember, even Reagan’s supporters considered his visit to the cemetery an embarrassing mistake.

Zero for 2, “Old” Labour.

http://hanlonsrazor.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/obamas-great-uncle-and-the-shameless-nay-sayers/

Where to begin….Time does not allow the cataloging of Obama’s misstatements, omissions, evasions, half-truths, out-right lies, and simply naive, wrong-headed policy prescriptions. Worse is the cult-like following of dazed groupie-like acolytes/supporters that comprise one of his main bases outside the unions(who are reflexive supporters of any donkey candidate). Did I say I’m not an Obama fan?

The larger question about Obama is this: Charlatan or Buffoon?
With a Charlatan one assumes an underlying connection with reality, and thus one capable of being bargained with, and therefore is slightly to be preferred to the Buffoon who is totally out of touch with reality. The jury is still out. What I am most worried about is the army of staff and political appointees of true believers scattered throughout the various agencies that will comprise an Obama Government–it is at the agency level that the real long term damage will be done as many of Obama’ s people will inevitably survive the Obama Administration firmly ensconced in place.

Although a Vietnam veteran pilot like McCain and a life-long man “of the right,” I am not a big supporter of his mainly due to his stances on immigration and taxes. However my differences with McCain pale in comparison to my fear of an Obama-led Govern- ment. This man is not just the most extreme left-wing liberal
in history to run for President(according to his actual voting record) but is in many ways an out-and-out collectivist swaying betwen the old Soviet stripe to moderate socialist, if one listens
closely to his speaches and reades his position papers. His “advisors” are even worse. Thankfully I am at the stage of my life and have arranged my affairs so that I am relatively immune to any income-tax depredations from an Obama Administration, but I fear that would be the least of my worries.

Now that’s satire, virgil xenophon. You could teach the New Yorker a thing or two.

Gene,

From Wiki:

Reagan defended himself by saying:

“These [SS troops] were the villains, as we know, that conducted the persecutions and all. But there are 2,000 graves there, and most of those, the average age is about 18. I think that there’s nothing wrong with visiting that cemetery where those young men are victims of Nazism also, even though they were fighting in the German uniform, drafted into service to carry out the hateful wishes of the Nazis. They were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps”

Remember, this was about reconciliation. I don’t see a problem.

They were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps

I remember the uproar caused by that quote. I understood the point Reagan was trying to make, but comparing German soldiers to concentration camp inmates was, to put it mildly, in poor taste.

Here is the Reagan speech. Read it yourself and make your own judgement.

H2>Remarks at a Joint German-American Military Ceremony at Bitburg Air
Base in the Federal Republic of Germany
May 5, 1985Thank you very much. I have just come from the
cemetery where German war dead lay at rest. No one could visit there
without deep and conflicting emotions. I felt great sadness that history
could be filled with such waste, destruction, and evil, but my heart was
also lifted by the knowledge that from the ashes has come hope and that
from the terrors of the past we have built 40 years of peace, freedom, and
reconciliation among our nations.
This visit has stirred many emotions in the American and German people,
too. I’ve received many letters since first deciding to come to Bitburg
cemetery; some supportive, others deeply concerned and questioning, and
others opposed. Some old wounds have been reopened, and this I regret very
much because this should be a time of healing.
To the veterans and families of American servicemen who still carry the
scars and feel the painful losses of that war, our gesture of
reconciliation with the German people today in no way minimizes our love
and honor for those who fought and died for our country. They gave their
lives to rescue freedom in its darkest hour. The alliance of democratic
nations that guards the freedom of millions in Europe and America today
stands as living testimony that their noble sacrifice was not in vain.
No, their sacrifice was not in vain. I have to tell you that nothing
will ever fill me with greater hope than the sight of two former war
heroes who met today at the Bitburg ceremony; each among the bravest of
the brave; each an enemy of the other 40 years ago; each a witness to the
horrors of war. But today they came together, American and German, General
Matthew B. Ridgway and General Johanner Steinhoff, reconciled and united
for freedom. They reached over the graves to one another like brothers and
grasped their hands in peace.
To the survivors of the Holocaust: Your terrible suffering has made you
ever vigilant against evil. Many of your are worried that reconciliation
means forgetting. Well, I promise you, we will never forget. I have just
come this morning from Bergen-Belsen, where the horror of that terrible
crime, the Holocaust, was forever burned upon my memory. No, we will never
forget, and we say with the victims of that Holocaust: Never again.
The war against one man’s totalitarian dictatorship was not like other
wars. The evil war of nazism turned all values upside down. Nevertheless,
we can mourn the German war dead today as human beings crushed by a
vicious ideology.
There are over 2,000 buried in Bitburg cemetery. Among them are 48
members of the SS — the crimes of the SS must rank among the most heinous
in human history — but others buried there were simply soldiers in the
German Army. How many were fanatical followers of a dictator and willfully
carried out his cruel orders? And how many were conscripts, forced into
service during the death throes of the Nazi war machine? We do not know.
Many, however, we know from the dates on their tombstones, were only
teenagers at the time. There is one boy buried there who died a week
before his 16th birthday.
There were thousands of such soldiers to whom nazism meant no more than
a brutal end to a short life. We do not believe in collective guilt. Only
God can look into the human heart, and all these men have now met their
supreme judge, and they have been judged by Him as we shall all be judged.
Our duty today is to mourn the human wreckage of totalitarianism, and
today in Bitburg cemetery we commemorated the potential good in humanity
that was consumed back then, 40 years ago. Perhaps if that 15-year-old
soldier had lived, he would have joined his fellow countrymen in building
this new democratic Federal Republic of Germany, devoted to human dignity
and the defense of freedom that we celebrate today. Or perhaps his
children or his grandchildren might be among you here today at the Bitburg
Air Base, where new generations of Germans and Americans join together in
friendship and common cause, dedicating their lives to preserving peace
and guarding the security of the free world.
Too often in the past each war only planted the seeds of the next. We
celebrate today the reconciliation between our two nations that has
liberated us from that cycle of destruction. Look at what together we’ve
accomplished. We who were enemies are now friends; we who were bitter
adversaries are now the strongest of allies.
In the place of fear we’ve sown trust, and out of the ruins of war has
blossomed an enduring peace. Tens of thousands of Americans have served in
this town over the years. As the mayor of Bitburg has said, in that time
there have been some 6,000 marriages between Germans and Americans, and
many thousands of children have come from these unions. This is the real
symbol of our future together, a future to be filled with hope,
friendship, and freedom.
The hope that we see now could sometimes even be glimpsed in the
darkest days of the war. I’m thinking of one special story — that of a
mother and her young son living alone in a modest cottage in the middle of
the woods. And one night as the Battle of the Bulge exploded not far away,
and around them, three young American soldiers arrived at their door —
they were standing there in the snow, lost behind enemy lines. All were
frostbitten; one was badly wounded. Even though sheltering the enemy was
punishable by death, she took them in and made them a supper with some of
her last food. Then, they heard another knock at the door. And this time
four German soldiers stood there. The woman was afraid, but she quickly
said with a firm voice, “There will be no shooting here.” She made all
the soldiers lay down their weapons, and they all joined in the makeshift
meal. Heinz and Willi, it turned out, were only 16; the corporal was the
oldest at 23. Their natural suspicion dissolved in the warmth and the
comfort of the cottage. One of the Germans, a former medical student,
tended the wounded American.
But now, listen to the rest of the story through the eyes of one who
was there, now a grown man, but that young lad that had been her son. He
said: “The Mother said grace. I noticed that there were tears in her eyes
as she said the old, familiar words, `Komm, Herr Jesus. Be our guest.’ And
as I looked around the table, I saw tears, too, in the eyes of the
battle-weary soldiers, boys again, some from America, some from Germany,
all far from home.”
That night — as the storm of war tossed the world — they had their
own private armistice. And the next morning, the German corporal showed
the Americans how to get back behind their own lines. And they all shook
hands and went their separate ways. That happened to be Christmas Day, 40
years ago.
Those boys reconciled briefly in the midst of war. Surely we allies in
peacetime should honor the reconciliation of the last 40 years.
To the people of Bitburg, our hosts and the hosts of our servicemen,
like that generous woman 40 years ago, you make us feel very welcome.
Vielen dank. [Many thanks.]
And to the men and women of Bitburg Air Base, I just want to say that
we know that even with such wonderful hosts, your job is not an easy one.
You serve around the clock far from home, always ready to defend freedom.
We’re grateful, and we’re very proud of you.
Four decades ago we waged a great war to lift the darkness of evil from
the world, to let men and women in this country and in every country live
in the sunshine of liberty. Our victory was great, and the Federal
Republic, Italy, and Japan are now in the community of free nations. But
the struggle for freedom is not complete, for today much of the world is
still cast in totalitarian darkness.
Twenty-two years ago President John F. Kennedy went to the Berlin Wall
and proclaimed that he, too, was a Berliner. Well, today freedom-loving
people around the world must say: I am a Berliner. I am a Jew in a world
still threatened by anti-Semitism. I am an Afghan, and I am a prisoner of
the Gulag. I am a refugee in a crowded boat foundering off the coast of
Vietnam. I am a Laotian, a Cambodian, a Cuban, and a Miskito Indian in
Nicaragua. I, too, am a potential victim of totalitarianism.
The one lesson of World War II, the one lesson of nazism, is that
freedom must always be stronger than totalitarianism and that good must
always be stronger than evil. The moral measure of our two nations will be
found in the resolve we show to preserve liberty, to protect life, and to
honor and cherish all God’s children.
That is why the free, democratic Federal Republic of Germany is such a
profound and hopeful testament to the human spirit. We cannot undo the
crimes and wars of yesterday nor call back the millions back to life, but
we can give meaning to the past by learning its lessons and making a
better future. We can let our pain drive us to greater efforts to heal
humanity’s suffering.
Today I’ve traveled 220 miles from Bergen-Belsen, and, I feel, 40 years
in time. With the lessons of the past firmly in our minds, we’ve turned a
new, brighter page in history.
One of the many who wrote me about this visit was a young woman who had
recently been bas mitzvahed. She urged me to lay the wreath at Bitburg
cemetery in honor of the future of Germany. And that is what we’ve done.
On this 40th anniversary of World War II, we mark the day when the
hate, the evil, and the obscenities ended, and we commemorate the
rekindling of the democratic spirit in Germany.
There’s much to make us hopeful on this historic anniversary. One of
the symbols of that hate — that could have been that hope, a little while
ago, when we heard a German band playing the American National Anthem and
an American band playing the German National Anthem. While much of the
world still huddles in the darkness of oppression, we can see a new dawn
of freedom sweeping the globe. And we can see in the new democracies of
Latin America, in the new economic freedoms and prosperity in Asia, in the
slow movement toward peace in the Middle East, and in the strengthening
alliance of democratic nations in Europe and America that the light from
that dawn is growing stronger.
Together, let us gather in that light and walk out of the shadow. Let
us live in peace.
Thank you, and God bless you all.
Note: The President spoke at 3:33 p.m. after laying a wreath in a
nearby military cemetery in Bitburg. He was accompanied by Chancellor
Kohl. Following the ceremony, the President returned to Schloss Gymnich in
Bonn, where he stayed during his visit to Germany.

Return to: WWW-VL: United
States History Index

I am not a big supporter of his mainly due to his stances on immigration and taxes.

Given that McCain sponsored a bill on Immigration that he now says he would vote against, and given that he voted against the Bush tax cuts but now says he will make them permanent, just which bits are you against.

Agreed, Gene. Presumably the German soldiers had a fighting chance before they were killed, unlike victims of the holocaust. That was indeed a Reagan faux pas. Visiting the cemetery wasn’t.

The Siegessaule thing is astounding. Until this week, as far as everyone in Germany was concerned, it was the symbol of victory in the wars that led to German unification and they were about as offended by it as Americans are offended by the Washington Monument. Berliners fondly refer to it as “Golden Lizzy”. Now, suddenly, it’s Hitler’s favourite edifice, and the people of Germany are deeply ashamed of it and presumably planning to tear it down as soon as Obama’s gone. The GOP has been working its German contacts very hard.

Meanwhile, here’s McCain re-writing history:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200804010011

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/04/mccains-day-marked-by-fal_n_105283.html

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/04/mccain-katrina/

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/08/mccain-veterans-award-redux/

http://mediamatters.org/items/200807110006

I didn’t know that candidates for President were required to choose, or traditionally chose lawmakers from across the partisan aisle to accompany them on world tours, but even if that is so, I am still curious as to what foreign policy message Obama and his team are trying to convey by selecting Chuck Hagel?

Obama couldn’t find his ass with both hands and GPS. He is a suit full of bugger all. There are pre-school kids who are better qualified to be US Commander in Chief than Senator O’Barmy.

His entire appeal lies in him being (a) younger than McCain (who is also a bust flush) (b) black and (c) and saying “change” a lot. Well, fuck me! My newsagent actually handles change all the time so why can’t he be Prez? He’d do a better job than O’Barmy but then so would my cat.

I’m allowed to smirk here because I’ve suffered 11 years of NeuArbeit and the likes of “Red” Dawn Primnproper, Reichschancellor Brown, Gauleiter Balls, Hazel Bleary, that fat cow from Brum, the Millipedes, Hariet-cunting-Harman, Bliar, Blunkett, Jack “the last” Straw and the whole rest of that cavalcade of ugly, nasty, corrupt jackanapes that have donkey-punched this country into the ground for most of my adult life. God may forgive them but I won’t.

Looks like it will soon be America’s turn in the barrel. As Nelson Muntz might say, “Ha Ha!”

Every attack against Obama could be 100% true, and he’d still be welcomed by 90% of Americans as an improvement on Dubya.

PS. Auschwitz was never in the Reich.
Buchenwald was not liberated by the Soviets.
Confused?

tim - you must be some kind of internet imbecile. Your ignorance of history (and ability to cover up lies) are almost as convincing as the great Obarmy himself.

1. Birkenau and Auschwitz were annexed by the Third Reich in 1939
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany

2. Obama lied that his uncle liberated Auschwitz, a camp which, you may not be aware, was liberated by the Soviets (in fact, none of Obama’s uncles even served in the US military - his mother was an only child!).
Clearly, this was an incredibly important memory for him.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30096

His entire appeal lies in him being (a) younger than McCain (who is also a bust flush) (b) black and (c) and saying “change” a lot. Well, fuck me! My newsagent actually handles change all the time so why can’t he be Prez? He’d do a better job than O’Barmy but then so would my cat.

Well said.

You know, I’m frequently accused of being an unthinking, enraptured Obama supporter. I don’t think I am, but I suppose some of his supporters are. However, judging from this thread and others, I sense that the unthinking, raging opposition to Obama is at least as strong. It seems to consist largely of personal revulsion. The substantive criticism of Obama here has been next to zero.

Gene: can you tell me wtf this is all about?

<blockquote”We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”

Barack Obama, 2 July 2008

The substantive criticism of Obama here has been next to zero.

It would help if we had ANYTHING to criticise.

Record in the Illinois Legislature: Nowt. Not a sausage. Didn’t do jack whilst he was there.

Record in the Senate: Nowt. Not a sausage… get the idea?

Record as a Lawyer: Guess what? Fuck all again.

He’s an empty demagogue, devoid of any achievement at all.

Gene: can you tell me wtf this is all about?

”We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”

Without having seen the original, it appears to be an acknowledgment that a strong military is necessary but not sufficient for national security, and that efforts at promoting health, education, democracy, good governance, economic development, etc., are just as important.

Gene:

That quote seems to me to be advocating the creation of an organisation (”national security force”) to act as a civilian corollary to the military. I don’t see how it can be interpreted as simply funding ’soft power’ foreign policy to the same extent as the armed forces.

So either he’s explaining a different point very poorly, or advocating extraordinarily radical.

Or the quote is taken completely out of context/fabricated.

‘advocating something extraordinarily radical’, that should be.

OL.
Correct.
Got my General Government border wrong.

You don’t deny that Obamas great Uncle was at Buchenwald do you?

Without having seen the original, it appears to be an acknowledgment that a strong military is necessary but not sufficient for national security, and that efforts at promoting health, education, democracy, good governance, economic development, etc., are just as important.

Gene gets the prize for non-sequitur of the year.

Morgoth.
Which McCain policies on Iraq and Iran do you support.
Before last Friday or after?

That quote seems to me to be advocating the creation of an organisation (”national security force”) to act as a civilian corollary to the military.

You mean like the Peace Corps?

As a practical matter US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq have been engaged in a lot of “nation building” tasks. God bless ‘em for it, and I’m sure they’re doing the best they can, but on the whole it’s not something they were prepared for. Wouldn’t it make more sense to replace them in those tasks with people who are trained so they can concentrate on their primary duties, or to create a branch of the military dedicated to such tasks?

Certainly these are things that can be discussed without suggesting they are “extraordinarily radical.”

I think it would be much less expensive to augment the training of existing forces, Gene. In fact, I think the coalition forces have done an excellent job of Nation building with relatively little training.

It makes our fighting force all the more savvy when it comes to dealing with scumbags.

You mean like the Peace Corps?

Last I checked, the Peace Corps isn’t “just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded” as the US military!

Did you even read the quote?

Gene–

I don’t know about anyone else but I used to be an Omaba supporter. Until he went back on campaign finance. He (IMO) single-handedly destroyed the public campaign finance structure which has (not incidentally for me) been disproportionately been benefitting Democrats.

And yes, if you’re charismatic and cute and have a great Internet presence public finance isn’t such a big deal. Too bad there aren’t so many cute, charismatic, articulate politicians out there with a fantastic Internet presence.

And too bad lawmakers will not pass another campaign reform bill in my lifetime. And too bad that from now on, unless you have access to loads of money, you don’t count.

I know politics is dirty–but there’s no reason to make it worse, is there?

Regards,

Inna

Which McCain policies on Iraq and Iran do you support.
Before last Friday or after?

All of them, Tim.

Feel free to browse the McCain website if you’re not too familiar with them.

Mr. Obama is hard to pin down as far as background and accomplishments. He is both an empty suit and the Emperors new clothes in the same time. He will relieve white leftist guilt about having a connection of some sort to the slavery of pre 1865 America.

He is woefully unprepared at this point in his career to run for President. Today it was revealed that he has 300 people trying to get him up to some sort of bluffing speed about world events.

Now, he is going to have some pretty speeches that will make ladies swoon and gentlemen will feel a tingle up their legs. That was why he was trying to rent out the Brandenburg Gate for his rendition of JF Kennedy’s “Ich bin ein Baracker”. That is his only strength, reading from a prepared script. If forced to say something extemporaneously he is quickly lost.

But Europe will worship him and he will be the next President just because the world is that mad.

Interesting times ahead.

The Siegessaule thing is astounding. Until this week, as far as everyone in Germany was concerned, it was the symbol of victory in the wars that led to German unification and they were about as offended by it as Americans are offended by the Washington Monument. Berliners fondly refer to it as “Golden Lizzy”. Now, suddenly, it’s Hitler’s favourite edifice, and the people of Germany are deeply ashamed of it and presumably planning to tear it down next week. The GOP has been working its German contacts very hard.

“Obama lied that his uncle liberated Auschwitz, a camp which, you may not be aware, was liberated by the Soviets (in fact, none of Obama’s uncles even served in the US military - his mother was an only child!).”

He wrongly said Auschwitz when it was actually Buchenwald. It is a matter of record that his grandmother’s brother, Charles Thomas Payne, was part of the Infantry Division that liberated Buchenwald. See this: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/501/

So, he got the name wrong. This is a gaff and they happen quite a lot when people are speaking. Want a list of all of McCain’s gaffs?

Want a list of all of McCain’s gaffs?

I’ve asked before. They don’t.

So much for Iraqi democracy

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/20/maliki_aides_statement_came_af.html

Such a great democracy that they wanted Blackwater out but the US vetoed it, are you people malicious or have a sub 50 IQ?

Obama’s alright. At least he wont try a war with Iran. The best reason to vote for him.

No, on the evidence of his speeches he’ll be too busy trying war with Pakistan.

And 300 foreign policy advisors? That’s more than one for every independent nation on earth.

Look. Remaining nebulous and banal so as to appeal to the widest possible range voters while speaking in code and dropping hints to one’s electoral base that nothing’s changed is common to all politicians–as is lack of certain kinds of “experience.”–THAT is not what worries me so about Obama. Rather, it is his evasiveness and basic dishonesty about all aspects of his past–taken together with those collectivist aspects of much of his writings and speeches (in short, his IDEAS) that give me cause for concern.

Does it not disturb anyone that entire sections of the official Obama campaign web-site are “scrubbed”/”disappeared” (a la the old Soviet air-brushed photos of party members fallen out of favor) whenever Obama is caught out in a contradiction, outright lie, or position made obsolete by events? What does this portend for future conduct? It is one thing to claim error and a right to change one’s in a forthright principled manner–quite another to claim with a straight-face that such statements were never made, nor opinions ever held in the first place, as occurs with frequency with both Obama personally and with his campaign staff.

“change one’s mind”

What’s Obama going for him?

He’s younger and his wife doesn’t look like a burns victim.

Apart from that, I think he needs to be honest with the American people about his background, give some indication why he stayed fro 20 plus years as a member of a race hate congregation.

“why he stayed fro 20 plus years as a member of a race hate congregation.”

Maybe for the same reason McCain has spent 15 years going to a Baptist Church despite being an Episcopalian: To win votes.

Recessions, slow downs, there’s a lot for Obama to contend with…

But here’s a a sign of the times. Headline in South China Post:

“Province sees lower growth of 10.7 per cent”.

That’s Guangdong province having a ’slow down’, apparently.

He’s younger and his wife doesn’t look like a burns victim.

Well, that’s cruel. However, there was a amusing bit I read somewhere about Michelle and Barack Obama not only appearing relatively youthful but also looking like they might actually sleep together and enjoy it. Well, how remarkable.

Oliver Kamm points us to John Rentoul’s article on Obama’s new mission for the world:

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2008/07/preparing-for-betrayals.html

I know Biden is a fave of Gene’s, but I think there is little chance that the power dressing senator from Delaware - all cuff links and chunky watches - will be Obama’s running mate. Sartorially, of course, the two would form the best dressed pair by a long chalk, but I am afraid Biden would be in danger of either boring folk to tears or coming out with howlers at inopportune moments.

This toe-curler of a sentence from Kamm made me smile:

First, there is the obvious symbolism - which is important and entirely justified - of an articulate black American vying for the leadership of the free world.

Articulate as well? Blimey, Oliver.

Who’s your VP tip Benjamin?

Gene, you seem an otherwise intelligent and articulate spoksman for your own views, so tell me, what it is it about Obana that appeals aside from vague calls for “changeyness” and “hopeyness?” Is it his anti-Iraq war stance? If not, what else? Has their ever been a more smug, egocentric,
grandiose campaign slogan like “WE are the one’s WE”VE
been waiting for” proffered by any candidate in history? It’s one thing for one’s supporters to sport buttons saying “I like IKE”;
quite another when the candidate himself says, in effect, “I like ME!” His refusal to take questions about sticky subjects involving past financial dealings; his walking out of Press Conferences after only eight questions when pressed hard on his financial dealings in Chicago–all bespeak of a thin-skinned, arrogant, duplicitous individual. For him to send his wife out to campaign for him with sharpened rhetoric, only then to ward off political opponents responses to partisan pronouncements by his wife as being “out of bounds” takes a Lake Superior-sizes vessel
full of unmitigated gall–Supreme Hutzpah by any other name. As someone has written recently, he has managed the impossible–to be simultaneously an empty suit and an Emperor in waiting with no clothes. And an arrogant, yet unaccomplished elitist to boot.

PS: Gene, I would hope that you are not like half of white America–hoping by voting for Obama that America can expiate all it’s sins of racial bigotry in one, feel-good, fell swoop. And what does it say about him that he draws supporters that are publicly saying now that not to vote Obama into office would “prove” racial
hatred? I wonder if he will formally disavow such views. What duz ya think the odds are he will do so?

Certainly not Oliver Kamm. :-)

Likely be someone like Richardson or Rendell (although folk will be on gaffe watch if Rendell makes it). Chuck Hagel would be interesting. Obama’s pick will probably be leathery.

“This toe-curler of a sentence from Kamm made me smile:

First, there is the obvious symbolism - which is important and entirely justified - of an articulate black American vying for the leadership of the free world.

Articulate as well? Blimey, Oliver.”

To be fair, this might not be shock at the prospect of an articulate black man, more an attempt to contrast him with the present encumbent, who is about as a good an orator as a bag of rocks.

No, Dave, I’m afraid it is not. According to a clarification by Oliver, he was trying to compare Obama with Jesse Jackson who is an inarticulate black American - according to Oliver. Strange that; I’ve always thought that both men are actually articulate black Americans, irrespective of whether or not I agree with their views. I suggest that Oliver stay away from the subject of “articulate” or “inarticulate” black Americans, before the hole he is digging for himself gets rather too large.

Gregg,

‘They ended the Great Depression and made the US the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth.’

This comment goes against common sense and exprerience. If economists at Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Berkeley e.t.c are to be believed then such policies contributed and prolonged the misery of the Great Depression particularly amongst the poor.

‘New Deal taxes were major job destroyers during the 1930s, prolonging unemployment that averaged 17%. Higher business taxes meant that employers had less money for growth and jobs. Social Security excise taxes on payrolls made it more expensive for employers to hire people, which discouraged hiring.’ ‘http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

So I guess if you really detest America then actually Obama is your man.

“why he stayed fro 20 plus years as a member of a race hate congregation.”

It was not a “race hate” congregation.

So I guess if you really detest America then actually Obama is your man.

So I suppose you could have said the same about FDR. The majorities who voted for him in four elections must have detested America too.

PS: Gene, I would hope that you are not like half of white America–hoping by voting for Obama that America can expiate all it’s sins of racial bigotry in one, feel-good, fell swoop.

Obama offers white america redemption for the sins of slavery. He offers up the hope of being freed from that guilt, as irrational and unjustified as that guilt is.

Certain honest, conservative black pundits have been pointing that out for some time now.

It was not a “race hate” congregation.

Had that congregation been white, it’d be ‘race hate’ in your books.

It was not a “race hate” congregation.

*chortle*

Here’s a challenge for Gene, which I hope he will accept: During this campaign, I asked supporters of the three leading Democratic candidates, Clinton, Edwards, and Obama, to tell us what those candidates had accomplished, especially as political leaders. When Edwards dropped out, I repeated the request to supporters of the two remaining candidates. After Clinton dropped out, I repeated the request, asking Obama supporters to tell us what he has accomplished.

I put the posts up on my own site, Jim Miller on Politics, and on a widely-read site in the Seattle area, Sound Politics. I also sent an email or two to some local Obama supporters. So far, no one has taken up my challenge. No Obama supporter in this area has been willing to tell us what Obama has accomplished, if anything. If Gene thinks Obama has significant accomplishments (other than writing two “autobiographies”), why doesn’t he write a post telling us what those accomplishments are?

As for my own dislike of Obama, much of it comes from his persistent dishonesty. And I didn’t come to that opinion about his character by listening to talk radio or reading right wing blogs. I came to it by reading articles in the New York Times, the Chicago Tribune, and other generally leftist newspapers.

For instance: The New York Times did a devastating piece on Obama’s brief career at the Business International Corporation. They showed, beyond a doubt, Obama’s account of that year or so was seriously misleading. Their headline is: “Obama’s Account of New York Years Often Differs From What Others Say”. Read enough of these articles and you will conclude, as I did, that we can not trust what Obama says.

If Gene thinks Obama has significant accomplishments (other than writing two “autobiographies”), why doesn’t he write a post telling us what those accomplishments are?

Jim, I don’t know how you define “significant accomplishments,” and I’m not comparing Obama to Abraham Lincoln, but perhaps if “significant accomplishments” were a prerequisite, Lincoln would never have been elected in 1860.

Gene - Define “significant accomplishments” any way you want. If you think Obama has some, tell us what they are. If you think the ability to read well from a teleprompter is a significant accomplishment, then say so. In short, give us some positive reasons to support the junior senator from Illinois, rather than spend your time complaining that people don’t like him.

But you should know that many of us will be most interested in what Obama has accomplished as a public figure, in particular what he has done as a legislator. (I think he is probably a pretty good basketball player, but doubt that skill would be important in the oval office.)

(And I would suggest that you read any decent Lincoln biography before denigrating him.)

(And I would suggest that you read any decent Lincoln biography before denigrating him.)

I’m not denigrating Lincoln. I’ve read David Donald’s biography of him, and I consider him the greatest American president. Lincoln did a workmanlike job as a member of the Illinois legislature and Congress, but there was little little in terms of “significant accomplishments” that pointed toward future greatness.

Your toes curl very easily, Benjiboy. Just what is it about the phrase “articulate black American” you have a problem with?

Your toes curl very easily, Benjiboy. Just what is it about the phrase “articulate black American” you have a problem with?

I shudder to say it, but I think Benjamin has a point here. Comments about the relative articulateness of “black Americans” make me cringe a bit too. I didn’t like it when George Galloway called Dennis Rodman an “inarticulate black American.”

Anita S:
This comment goes against common sense and exprerience.

Erm, no, it accords perfectly with common sense and reflects the historical record.

If economists at Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Berkeley e.t.c are to be believed then such policies contributed and prolonged the misery of the Great Depression particularly amongst the poor.

The majority of economists and almost all historians agree that the New Deal ended the Great Depression and ushered in America’s recovery. They have analysed the actual effects of FDR’s policies when put in practice.

A minority of economists do, as you say, disagree. They have tested the New Deal against their own utopian theories, and found reality wanting. The New Deal goes against their economic and religious beliefs, their crypto-religious faith in the free market - and they have chosen to reject it rather than tackle their own false premises. The Cato Institute is a prime example of this. Their beliefs are fine and dandy in theory, but they completely break-down in the real world.

dave:
To be fair, this might not be shock at the prospect of an articulate black man, more an attempt to contrast him with the present encumbent, who is about as a good an orator as a bag of rocks.

I find it unlikely that Oliver Kamm would make such a suggestion abour President Bush.

Benjamin:
According to a clarification by Oliver, he was trying to compare Obama with Jesse Jackson who is an inarticulate black American - according to Oliver.

I think we should doubt this claim. Personally, I find it difficult to see how anyone could view Jesse Jackson as inarticulate (frequently wrong, yes, but not inarticulate). And looking at what appears to be the transcript of the discussion upon which Kamm based his post, we can see Kamm said “There is tremendous sympathy within Europe for the notion of Obama as president for the very good and understandable reason of the powerful symbolism of an articulate black American vying as a mainstream candidate, not like Jesse Jackson, for the American presidency.” The clear implication of this statement is that he views Jackson too as as “articulate black Americans”, but one who, unlike Obama, did not run as a mainstream candidate.

Gregg

Oliver Kamm made that clarification in the comments. Actually, it’s not much of clarification. It’s still not particularly clear why he made that odd remark about an “articulate black American” candidate.

Perhaps Gene can explain the Obamessiah’s latest gaff?

“The objective of this trip was to have substantive discussions with people like President Karzai or Prime Minister Maliki or President Sarkozy or others who I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.”

Did you see McCain talking about the Iraq/ Pakistan border this morning Morgoth?

Gregg, I don’t know which historians/economists you are reading, but all but the most retrograde syncophantic defenders of FDR’s legacy now recognize the unassailable fact that on the eve of Pearl Harbor, America was more deeply and widely in the throes of the depression than it has ever been in terms of unemployment, industrial output, etc., (for all the reasons Anita S mentions) and that only the war actually put great numbers of people back to work again.

But the real howler is your statement that markets “break down in the real world.” Which world in which parallel universe would that be? The one in which Stalinist command economy’s bring the proverbial horn of plenty to a grateful populace? A world in which Socialist economies like those of both “Nu” and “old” labor
bring so much material plenty to their populations–so much so that the term “the British Disease” had to be coined to properly reflect the greater economic glories of nationalized industries and paralyzing influence of labor unions? THAT universe? Is THAT
what you mean when you say markets are only “utopian theories?” Your right Gregg, who are we to believe? You, or our lyin’ eyes?

Virgil Xenophon, I do not where you get your supposed “facts” on FDR and the New Deal but they have no basis in reality. What are you sources for such ridiculus statements? I suspect your hatred comes from the fact that with the New Deal, working class Americans were organized in sufficient numbers in Labor Unions for the first time, to demand their proper part of the pie from their wealthy bosses. No doubt you delight at the current powerlessness of most of the American working class and delight at their being offered constantly lower wages or have their jobs sent to Mexico. To you, that is the natural system of things were rich get richer and everyone else gets the shaft. No wonder you hate the memory of FDR and the New Deal so much!

Gene, Maliki may not have cut the heart out of McCain’s campaign with his now officially “mistranslated” statement, but he definitely shot it in its right leg!

Did you see McCain talking about the Iraq/ Pakistan border this morning Morgoth?

We’re talking about the Obamessiah here, Tim.

David All: Belief in the necessity of the efficient formation of capital does not automatically equate with a hatred of Labor, far from it. Henry Ford got it right when he doubled the wages of his workers and shortened the work week so somebody would have the where-with-all to buy his autos and the free time to drive them. Only trouble was that he was operating in a closed economic system. Now with world-wide trade you are correct: There is indeed a race to the bottom wage-wise. But it is like automation. Vassley Leontiff, the Soviet economist, likens it to the move to use farm tractors. “It did no good, if draft horses
could talk. to plead that they would work twice as long on half as many oats, the farmers were going to mechanize anyway.”

Actually, I believe as long as there is still a Bolivian tin miner alive willing to see his wages doubled from a dollar a day in the mines to twice that on the whirlpool assembly line, no union jobs in the US are safe. Rather, I would counsel the labor movement to work at unionization of foreign workers rather than preserving their own, as it is only in this way that comparative equalization of wages will occur to stave off wholesale dislocation of industries. (the wobblies are back!)

But unions or no, I cannot for the life of me understand the ideological lens(well, I CAN, but don’t want to think overly much about it) thru which you view world history. I’m too tired and
and still have half a fifth of rum to work thru to dig up the stats, but by almost any economic measurement the economy was in a deep topor in 1940-41 and only war production provided full employment. This is not to say that FDR’s programs were all bad–my Father was in the CCC after all–and the artists and writers program produced some enduring work–but it was all fiddling around the edges to provide the symbalence of motion and hope. Don’t know, in absence of stats, what more to say at this point other than to say that I hope this isn’t an ideological dialogue of the deaf on this matter, but it’s beginning to feel that way.

PS: I’m a lover, not a hater–or not much of one anyway–I reserve my energies for disdain for neo-prohibitionists.