Harry's Place

I AM SO HAPPY I COULD CRY!!!!! (in fact i did, on the phone with my friends from belgrade).

This is good news. Sending Bashir to the Hague would be even better news. It is also good that this was done by the Serbian govt. and not by NATO.

Great news.

Excellent, let’s hope that Ratko Mladic is next. And that, unlike Milosevic’s trial, the defence doesn’t manage to make it into a farce.

beat me to it, great news! should have happened 13 years ago

still I expect that a few “anti-imperialists” will be sorry? let’s see?

next step:

arrest Mladic, next step after that, dismantle replublika srpska!!!

Brilliant. Where’s Clarkie boy?

Agree with what Sarah Franco said. Make a clean sweep by arresting Mladic and then see if their illegitmate child replublika srpska can be merged back into the rest of Bosnia.

modernity: You mean anti-Imperialists like Chomsky & Co.? Yes this is likely to be one of the worst blows they suffered since their anti-Imperialist hero, Milosevic was overthrown back in 2000.

Still waiting (see remark on previous thread) for JP to show up to say that Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic were just defending Christian Europe from the Islamic Menace.

Was not Karadzic orginally a doctor? A heart surgeon if I am not mistaken?

Good news, shame about the Arab League’s “whataboutery” response to Bashir.

Now the world looks a little bit better then yesterday.

David A,

Chomsky as well, but there’s a LOT worse in Europe and Britain, just wait for it

they’ll complain that the ICC is part of some western hegemonic scheme to control the world (of course, they’d like to blame the US too, but as they ain’t a member such an argument falls flat)

I think karadzic was a shrink or might have even worked with kids at one point in time, I forget.

I think he was a shrink or might have even worked with kids at one point in time, I forget.

The UN has a lot more, http://www.un.org/icty/

I posted the whole indictment, grim reading

Psychiatrist, I think, David. As were a lot of big cheeses in the 1990s, knowing how to manipulate human emotions. Dubious name dropping, I know someone who went to school with Raznatovic’s daughters.

(I would be slightly wary of calling for the dissolution of Replublika Srpska on a point of principle unless *both* sides wanted it. You know why.)

The Balkans could be sorted out if the EU extended membership to all former Yugoslav republics, including Serbia (which yearns to be an EU member). What is required is arbitration and legal judgements on outstanding issues from an authority that all states will respect.

Does Karadic still look like Father Ted?

this is rather good:

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/thirteen-years-since-srebrenica-thirteen-facts-to-refute-the-theorists-of-an-anti-serb-imperialist-conspiracy/

Modernity & Alec Macpherson: Interesting, an evil psychiatrist who uses his knowledge of human emotions to manipulate his way to power in an unstable Balkans country. Like something out of an old episode of “The Avengers” or “Mission Impossible”. Unfortunately Karadzic did a lot more harm then any bad guy in TV spy shows ever did. The TV baddies always meet their nasty fate by end of each episode.

Seriously. In Communist Yugoslavia, were dissidents ever declared to be crazy for opposing the State as happened in the old Soviet Union? If so, was Karadzic ever involved in such criminal misuse of his profession?

Alec: I agree with you, the people of both Replublika Srpska and the Bosnian-Croat Republic must be in favor of merging the two States together before it is attempted. It may turn out to be wiser to leave them as they are for at least a generation or so.

This is one of the best pieces of news of the last decade or so. For me, it is classed along side a select few including the 1997 election, Pinochet being arrested in the UK, Saddam’s being captured and the string of centre-left victories that took place across the continent in the late 90s and early 2000s.

These are truly happy tidings. And vengeful and justiciable tidings.

We have been waiting for this for such a long time. Let Karadzic be exposed to the full glare of international opprobrium.

Was not Karadzic orginally a doctor? A heart surgeon if I am not mistaken?

Karadžić is a psychiatrist. Go figure.

I am delighted that Radovan is off to the Hague. Sarah is right; there is much more to be done, not least in BiH. I hope that this is the start of the long road to Serbia’s return to normality after twenty years of craziness brought to us by Milošević and prolonged by Koštunica. I hope that journey can end in a few years’ time with Serbia and Kosova being admitted as independent states to the EU on the same day.

filthy slavophobe racists!

What is interesting about all this was where he was caught. After all those years of searching, he was finally found in Vračar…slap bang in the middle of Belgrade.

Back in the 90s, I worked for a time for the UN mission in former Yugoslavia, which was, to put it mildly, somewhat placatory towards the Serb ethnic cleansers. So this is terrific news, even if it comes ten years too late.

Hasan, where did you find the info about Vračar? I can’t seem to find much detail about the arrest.

Next up: Ratko Mladic.

Don’t be so cheerful. So many more are still at large and prosper; Mugabe, Castro brothers, Bashir, Putin, Kim JongIl, Kadaffi, Khamanei and Ahmadinejad, Assad, Mengistu Haille Mariam, Burmese junta, members of Vietnamese Regime, Chinese Communist Party, Laotian regime, Lukaszenka, and thousands upon thousands lesser but no less horrendous war criminals…

Lenin: fuck off.

Excellent news. And such a convenient time for Serbia. One does wonder how many of the top people there knew where he was all the time.

Now if only they would think of Kosova as a place that might legitimately contain anyone of Albanian ethnicity, we might start to get somewhere.

Sadly, Hasan, I fear the thought in Serbia was that Kosovo vaut un Karadzic — that an arrest is a means of getting into the EU and thus being able to block Kosova’s entrance to it.

But maybe I’m just a cynic.

LENIN:
FUCK OF
you don’t have the monopoly over slavophilia.

the bosnian muslims who got murdered, raped, tortured, expelled from their homes and humiliated in all kinds of ways by Radovan’s people ARE SLAVES TOO!

my friends who CRYED OF JOY over the phone with me right after whe got the news ARE SLAVES TOO. in facts they are trues serbs, daughers and grand daughters of serbs.

fascist nacionalist serbs don’t have the monopoly over serbdom, they tryed ti apropriate and destroy serbian national identity, but in Serbia there are very decent people who in the end will be the ones that will push for a tolerant society based on civic not ethnic values…

quisquis:

the serbian government is preparing itself to chalenge the Independence of Kosova in the International Court of Justice (ICJ) by demanding the General Assembly of the UN to ask for an advisory opinion on the legal value of the Declaration of independence according to International Law.

http://balkans.courriers.info/article10891.html

I am quite confidente about it, because it is my opinion that the Indepencence of Kosova does not break international law, as I wrote in an article of which I published an excerpt on my blog:

http://cafeturco.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/kosovas-independence-and-international-law-updated-post/

The complete article is in portuguese.

Sovereigny does not entitle any state to dispose of the lives and human rights of the people who live in it, and the principle of self-determination is also a principle recognized by international law. Acording to the Helsinki Final Act, both rights are recognized, but the act clearly states that Sovereigny is submited to the requirement of respect for human rights.

So, what will probably happen is that the court will declare that in its opinion the Independence does not violate international law.

then the serbian progressive forces will have a strong argument to move on, recognize Kosova and develop a constructive relationship with Prishtina;

The other states who are refraining from recognition for fear of its legal implicatons regarding international law will have a good reason to recognize Kosova;

Those who will keep not recognizing will find themselves in the position of violator of the International law (in this respect see the work of nternational jurist Allain Pellet)…

As for the EU, Serbia will join only when Kosova joins, because for most EU countries, who recognized Kosova, the recognition means that for them the country called Serbia does not include Kosova, so they will not allow Serbia to get in and then behave in an obstructive manner. Once a new State gets recognized, there is no way back. It is simply not possible to revoke or witdraw an Act of recognition.

Absolutely fantastic, wonderful, almost unbelievable news. Too late, for sure, but a step in the right direction.

I sincerely thought that he would never have been captured, for various reasons, but let us hope:

(a) Mladic is not too far behind,

(b) the trial is just, he gets a long sentence, the crimes committed by the “Republika Srpska” authorities at his behest are made widely known and seen to be duly punished

and (ultimately, although more of a long-term aspiration, in fact, most importantly)

(c) the illegitimate and loathsome entity he founded, a shrine to those to that believe that people of different religions must live in separate states, founded upon ethnic cleansing and mass-murder and denial of citizenship, rather than in a civil, multinational state, where the equal status of all individuals is guaranteed and one’s “nationality” or “ethnicity” or religious allegiance is irrelevant, is wound up as soon as possible, and that the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is reestablished on that basis, rather than on the basis of the treacherous nationalist-murderer-appeasing Dayton Accords.

Let us also hope that

(a) the trial isn’t drawn out and shambolic a la Slobo – for this is too important: this man *unlike Milosevic* is at the heart of the atrocities committed all over Eastern and Northern Bosnia

(b) he doesn’t succeed in becoming a rallying point for nationalist bigots whether of the western european or serb variety

(c) this trial gives a much needed boost to the name of international justice, and international tribunals

(d) Greece stops fucking up everything in the Balkans that might ensure greater stability across the region

and a lot more too

(I recommend any apologists for Karazdic – of whom I fear there may well be many here: harry’s place has never so been disgusting in the people it attracts as of late, noxious bigots and extremists aplenty * – oh – and I don’t mean John Palubiski here: he is neither of those things, although I think he is wildly wrong – or rather illinformed about the Balkans – on most other matters he is spot on. God bless him: go and read some of Karazdic’s abysmal poetry – it is nothing if not frank, at times, about his intentions: I suggest you start with “let’s go down to the city (=sarajevo) and kill some scum”)

Can we also finally cut the crap about pretending that “Bosnian”, “Croatian”, “Serbian” and (holy mother of god) “Montenegrin” are separate languages now?
(Not aimed at anyone here – but rather in the direction of the Miljacka)

filthy slavophobe racists!

Was that really Dicky? It looks a bit too concise for me.

Is ther a bit in Lennys book about the evil NATO attacks on the brave Bosnian Serb gunners based around Sarajevo?

filthy slavophobe racists!

Was that really Dicky? It looks a bit too concise for me.

quite.

Good news indeed. I look forward to reading Marko’s view on this.

Will Harold Pinter be leaping to his defence?

Trotskyist Neocon @ 22 July 2008, 1:58 am

Can I suggest a better insult to lenin? It would be

“go demolish your own statues – if you can find any”.

So many more are still at large and prosper; Mugabe, Castro brothers, Bashir, Putin, Kim JongIl, Kadaffi, Khamanei and Ahmadinejad, Assad, Mengistu Haille Mariam, Burmese junta, members of Vietnamese Regime, Chinese Communist Party, Laotian regime, Lukaszenka, and thousands upon thousands lesser but no less horrendous war criminals…

Interesting list there. But I’m not sure how you got some of those names. We are talking about war criminals? In this case Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic certainly have cases to answer.

Ahmadinejad and Khamanei may be people you don’t like personally, but war criminal? That’s a different story. As far as I know Holocaust denial is not something the ICC will rule on and nor should it. But there are important questions about just how far the ICC’s jurisdiction runs.

The same goes for Kim Jong-il. I wonder what case there is to be made against him at the ICC? Certainly not one that is as strong as that against Saddam Hussein, who should have been tried internationally and not in that farce that was bound to be interpreted as in the US occupation’s favour.

Assad? War criminal?

I think you are using the term “war criminal” in place of repressive dictator. In that case you may have a point but don’t refer to those who haven’t waged full scale war as “war criminals”. Besides there are certain leaders who don’t particularly want free and open trials for some of these lest they be implicated themselves in many of the trials.

Kim Jong-il.

Yes. Well, without being awfuly inappropriate, The Devil, I can’t help but feel that Kim could suffer the two-minute hate followed by firing squad, no? I’m assuming you’re going to disagree with me here (you have effectively already, so you might as well carry on…)?

Actually, the rest of them could too, but I don’t want to be needlessly controversial for our liberal filth/evil trot friends – excuse me for tarring you with a very broad brush there, my good fellow; I just don’t know which of those two you are. I fear I haven’t paid enough attention as yet.

If I felt I was up for it, I would add “you fucking filthy smart-alec loser cunt” to the above, but life’s a bit short and I feel frail, so I won’t.

But it’s true that you’re the sort of evil loser who comes on here and, without actually disagreeing, disagrees. I know this because I’ve seen you around. (Will you go to bed with me? Jazzy trumpets to follow.) Because you are basically lacking in morality. That must be nice? I wish I was lacking in morality, you know. Life would be so much easier. Sigh.

“The indictment of Bashir in Sudan, and the failure to act”
(Douglas Farah).

http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/375/the-indictment-of-bashir-in-sudan-and-the-failure-to-act.com

Ben, I’m the devil. Of course, I’m lacking in morality. And just for today, I am playing my own advocate.

What I’m a little worried about is that many of you here aren’t really interested in “fair” trials because you already have your mind made up. My question relating to Kim Jong-il was whether you could haul him before the ICC and accuse him of war crimes without being laughed out of court. If you make a pig’s ear of such things then the ICC won’t have much credibility for long.

The North Korean regime is one of the filthiest and most repressive in the world. You would, however, be hard pressed to make a case for genocide or war crimes. You could make a case for indicting him on grounds that his special forces abducted foreign nationals and brought them to North Korea against their wish or you could say that he shares some responsibility for the hijacking and bombing of aircraft. Much of that was conducted by North Korea when it was run by his father but there is little doubt he would have had quite a lot of knowledge of what was going on then. The difficulty would be in proving his complicity there.

But, Ben. If you have any evidence of his implication in war crimes then please get that evidence off to the ICC immediately.

“the illegitimate and loathsome entity he founded” (Venichka)

But the serbs like it and want to keep it, without interference of the EU forces, or not? If they can do it without any further ethnic cleansing (that clearly happened on every side), why not? Why is it loathsome? Why should Serbs, Muslims and Croats forced to live in the same country?

I can’t help but feel that Kim could suffer the two-minute hate followed by firing squad, no? I’m assuming you’re going to disagree with me here

I’d be as pleased as punch if the North Korean people rose up and had him shot dead for the misery he has caused his people. It won’t happen, though, I’m afraid.

“filthy slavophobe racists”

That’s a bit Islamophobic, isn’t it, to stick up for the racist murderer of Muslims—or are Bosniaks the wrong sort of Muslims?

Republika Srpska is not the first -nor will be the last- country to be founded on conquest and atrocities. I don’t understand all this hatred toward that proto-country. Hatred against the perpetrators of atrocities yes, but to Republika Srpska? Are you not in danger of hating what people democratically and with respect to others want now?

Sadly, I have no evidence of war crimes committed by the Dear Leader. Given his regime hasn’t been in a shooting match since the 1950s.

I just think he ought to be shot. Actually, preferrably tortured horribly before being shot. Despite my sad and unfortunate lack of documentation for the ICC. I don’t really mind whether it’s by us (not very likely) or by his own people (even more vanishingly unlikely).

Good reason not to let those shitbags in Iran get any nukes like wot the Dear Leader has, hmmm? Means we might get to shoot or bang up a few Mullahs one day. I quite like that idea. That’s because I’m an Islamophobe, in case you were wondering. (I think that’s the proper noun for progressive democrats these days, is it not?)

Are you not in danger of hating what people democratically and with respect to others want now?

With due respect (as Englishmen say when they mean the opposite) What bollocks. I don’t feel “hatred” for the illegitimate entity of “Republika Srpska”, but I am quite certain that its abolition (and for that matter the ethnically based aspects of the cantonal system in the Federation, such as the dual education systems, etc) is necessary for justice to be done for (and/or on behalf of) all of those who were forced out of their homes, assaulted, raped or murdered by the gangsters who established that illegitimate entity. Its very continuing existence legitimises their atrocities and the nationalism and hatred of co-existence on which the entity was founded, and without which the entity would not, and could not, exist.

And “democracy”, hah! When those who were forced out of their homes during the ethnic cleansing are allowed to return to them and not be subject to the pervasive and obnoxious nationalism that is prevelant in many such areas, and, as non-Serbs, are treated de facto as they are de jure, as full, equal citizens, talk to me about democracy (Srebrenica is perhaps the one place in “RS” in which there seems to be some progress towards this, actually, although in fact perhaps it is disgraceful that that town is included in “RS” in the first place).

Note: this isn’t to say that other parties did not commit atrocities. But let us be quite clear about who the agressors were, who sought an exclusive state only for members of their religion and ethnic group, and who were prepared to kill to achieve it, and to ensure that post-war demographics and political structure ensured their exclusiveist state (reduced to a statelet or entity, but still, shamefully, with more powers than the common central state of BiH) continued and continues to exist

Corr. Venichka’s on fire today – love it!

I know I don’t seem to agree with him very often at the moment, but I think he deserves a round of applause.

Who’s yo daddy? Ven’s yo daddy!!

“Its very continuing existence legitimises their atrocities and the nationalism and hatred of co-existence on which the entity was founded, and without which the entity would not, and could not, exist.”

But the same could be said of most states. Of Pakistan, for example. Are you calling Pakistan an “illegitimate entity”?

I would certainly rather that the Republic of Pakistan had never been founded. I don’t think there is any doubt that Asia, and the world in general would be a much safer place had it not been. But that is off topic. (And it certainly doesn’t mean that I am “expressing hatred towards Pakistan”)

The fact that such a symbolic figure is finally being brought to justice is certainly a good reason for the Bosnian people and the rest of us to celebrate. The arrest of Karadzic doesn’t, however, change the fact that he was essentially a secondary figure in the planning of the war and genocide, and that most of those who organised the war from Belgrade were not even indicted.

Still, there are good reasons to feel pleased with this result. Above all, it suggests that the Serbian government now genuinely wants to improve relations with the West, and is ready to indicate it in a fairly spectacular way. This may bode well for the calming of the situation vis-a-vis Kosova. The Serbian Radical politician Aleksandar Vucic has drawn a link between the arrest and Serbia’s return of ambassadors to the countries that have recognised Kosovo, to prove the government’s ‘treason’; I just hope he’s right…

The other reason to be pleased is the possibility that Karadzic may spill the beans about a lot of what went on in the war, and implicate various Western officials such as David Owen and Richard Holbrooke. And he may even throw more light on Serbia’s role in the Srebrenica massacre. I’m not very optimistic, but it could happen…

People who complain about the supposed ‘pointlessness’ of the Bashir indictment forget that what mattered with Karadzic is not so much that he has belatedly been arrested, but that his indictment drove him out of political action. Frankly, if Bashir has to go underground for many years, his indictment will have been worth it – whether or not he is ever arrested. And as Karadzic’s arrest shows, Bashir will never be able to feel he’s got away with it.

The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there. There are no minority ethnic movements struggling for independence so avenues to unsettle the regime are few.

I didn’t know you were an Islamophobe, I have typed that word for the first time just now, but if you declare yourself one of those then who am I to argue. I was unaware that torture and the death penalty were now part of the “progressive democratic” repetoire these days but I have seen stranger things so I shouldn’t be surprised (there’s been a lot of revisionism going on certainly).

But I hope your dreams of banging some mullahs are comforting to you, unfortunately for you, it’s looking more and more like a dream everyday.

“Note: this isn’t to say that other parties did not commit atrocities. But let us be quite clear about who the agressors were, who sought an exclusive state only for members of their religion and ethnic group, and who were prepared to kill to achieve it, and to ensure that post-war demographics and political structure ensured their exclusiveist state (reduced to a statelet or entity, but still, shamefully, with more powers than the common central state of BiH) continued and continues to exist”

I don’t dispute who the aggressors were. But by your rule, every Muslim majority country is illegitimate, since they were possible only by conquest, forced conversion, massacres and expulsions.

Question:

does the word legitimacy mean anything to you?

If all the International community money that is being thrown away in the Former Yugoslavia could be spent on a massive programe of incentives for people to return to their homes, and be provided with means to have a decent life, peace could return, and not merely the absense of war, which is the environment I felt when I was in the serb entity of Bosnia( aka rep.srpska)

i benefit myself from that waisted money. I get grants and trips, but I would gladly pass without them if that money was to be spent in the people who really need it.

Venichka, I am with you!

“does the word legitimacy mean anything to you?”

I am not sure, because it is something that others give or take, sometimes against the desires of the receiver.
Because I see it used carelessly by Venichka: RS is illegitimate, but Pakistan isn’t. RS must be disbanded, but Pakistant “it would be better if it hadn’t been founded”. I see a double standard here, and I want to understand why.

not merely the absense of war, which is the environment I felt when I was in the serb entity of Bosnia( aka rep.srpska)

Exactly! Question, get ye to Banja Luka (never even to speak of Foca, which at least has returned to its former name after a brief spell as “Srbinje”, “Place of the Serbs”, even if, erm, almost all trace of its former non-Serb inhabitants has been deliberately and systematically erased) – you’ll be pleased to find the best array of anti-american t-shirts this side of, I guess, Syria.

“not merely the absense of war, which is the environment I felt when I was in the serb entity of Bosnia( aka rep.srpska)”

Couldn’t it be because the EU prevents its self-determination by force of arms?
Didn’t war start when there was one Bosnia -Herzegovina united?

Maybe the world would have been better is the UK had never been founded, on account of the piracies and colonization in which it engaged, but does that mean that the UK is a “loathsome illegitimate entity” on account of its past? What about Germany then?

RE: refugees. I don’t know much about the subject, but I understood that after wars most of the refugees are always resettled where they are, very few ever come back. Why then to impose a right of return in Bosnia – Herzegovina?

Lastly, Ven if tomorrow a researcher in Republika Srpska, funded by the state, discovers a cure for cancer or some other useful invention, would you still keep your view that “It would have been better if it had never been founded” or, “that loathsome illegitimate entity should be disbanded”? Or do you reserve that kind of condemnation for countries that seemingly do not contribute anything to your culture, like Pakistan or the RS?

All my questions are made in good faith and I await a response if you please.

What Ven, David All (gasp) and Marko (even bigger gasp) have said.

I would prefer that he NOT go on trial however – my prefered solution is either a) to put him in the same room as some survivors of Srebenica or b) just shoot the genocidal bastard.

And yes, where is JP?

turn on BBC News 24 and you’ll see the most remarkable press coference with the Serb prosecutar.
Apparently Karadzic has been living in Belgrade,doing private practice wearing a long white beard.A photograph of what seems to be him doing an alternative medicine conference, on stage has been shown.

.A photograph of what seems to be him doing an alternative medicine conference, on stage has been shown.

And to top it all off the genocidal bastard was a homeopath as well?

Question, yes, of course i would: the question is principally concerned with justice and politics! Although I must admit that I had missed all of these technological and medical advances being brought

The Problem with “RS” as I see it (quite apart from its impact upon the broader polity of BiH and the Balkans) is not that it does not contribute anything to “my” culture (or rather, cultures), but that it is profoundly destructive of the culture upon which it is parasitic.

Above all, the sort of genocidal, militant nationalism that it incarnates is bad for Serbs, and for Serbian culture and society. Just as, for example (and on a less grand scale of beastliness), the nationalism and aggression of Sinn Fein (and various offshoots and associated groups thereof) has been profoundly traumatic and negative for Ireland.

Let us drink (heartily) to Serbia joining, and contributing richly to the family of peoples, now that this disease has hopefully passed from it.

“The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there.”

My goodness me. I’m not quite sure what to say to this.

The rest of you comment can rather fall by the wayside. (Umm, try to fuck me up better than you do, because it isn’t awfully convincing.)

I know I said it would be nice not to have any morals, but I rather meant in the sense of saying “I’ll call you” without worrying about it, rather than the “create a supposedly Stalinist (so bad you have to say “supposedly” Stalinist!) dictatorship which is in fact based upon slavery and hereditary rule” and not worry about it.

Are you CPB? (If you’ve never typed “Islamophobe” before, you’re not with the totalitarian lefty programme – just a friendly tip.)

I would prefer that he NOT go on trial however – my prefered solution is either a) to put him in the same room as some survivors of Srebenica or b) just shoot the genocidal bastard.

Why not hang him from a crane or shoot him in a football stadium. Give the machine gun to a relative of one of his victims?

On second thoughts, I’d rather there be a civilized trial and yes, it would be interesting, as someone said, if he could implicate the bigger players in all of this.

In the celebratory mood that we’re in, here’s a relevant comment from the Guardian in a thread about alcoholism:

I’m no alcoholic, but it does shtrike me as shlightly shtrange, according to the photo on the front page of todaysh Guardian web shite, that Father Ted has been arreshted for crimesh againsht humanity and genoshide

My goodness me. I’m not quite sure what to say to this.

I can see that judging by the mangled mess of verbiage you followed up.

Are you CPB? (If you’ve never typed “Islamophobe” before, you’re not with the totalitarian lefty programme – just a friendly tip.)

Am I what? Is that some kind of condition?

Why not hang him from a crane or shoot him in a football stadium. Give the machine gun to a relative of one of his victims?

Because they’re both quite nekulturny?

The Ceausescu model is more what I’m aiming for.

Yes yes yes – what ven said. I suggest everyone digs out Pawel Pawlikowski’s excellent documentary from the early 1990s, ‘Serbian Epics’, in which he followed Milosevic around with a camera in the early stages of the war in Bosnia. There’s a particularly loathsome moment in which he allows nutty Russian writer Eddie Limonov to take potshots at sarajevo with a machine gun.

I believe Karadzic was team shrink to Red Star Belgrade about the time they won the European Cup (1991). A fine fine team – Savicevic, Jugovic, Prosinecki et al – but to the Belgrade regime what Real Madrid was to Franco. Arkan was one of the tifosi leaders.

“the question is principally concerned with justice and politics! ”

I agree. But I see also a double standard applied regarding the RS.

“Although I must admit that I had missed all of these technological and medical advances being brought”

I don’t know if this is satire. In case it isn’t, it is an important issue, not for deciding the right to exist of a certain country – I think that is for the people who live in that country to democratically decide -but to understand the way in which foreigners will see the situation. For example, I could mention that if it weren’t for the Beatles, the UK would have been seen as parasitic, colonialist and arrogant in many places of Latin America. And I am not joking.

“The Problem with “RS” as I see it (quite apart from its impact upon the broader polity of BiH and the Balkans) is not that it does not contribute anything to “my” culture (or rather, cultures), but that it is profoundly destructive of the culture upon which it is parasitic.”

I find this language to be disgusting and very very very wrong.

“Above all, the sort of genocidal, militant nationalism that it incarnates is bad for Serbs, and for Serbian culture and society.”

Well, give them time, self-determination and security and it will pass. It happened with your country, right?

I feel I excell in mangled messes of verbiage. Don’t knock it.

I was asking if you were an acolyte of the Communist Party of Britain. I asked this because Andrew Murray, who runs the STWC, is a big supporter of the Dear Leader, and that’s apparently the view of his party (the CBP).

So if you’re not CBP, what are you? A random pro-Stalinist loon?

Because they’re both quite nekulturny?

No doubt but I don’t expect the families of his victims to be particularly fastidious in his case. The Ceaucescu thing wouldn’t work out given that Christmas is a long way off.

Oh FFS when people start whining about “double standards” you know they are just trying to dodge the rightful accusations against them, to avoid facing up to justice, just like a spoilt child saying “it isn’t fair”. I see no point in entering into debate with people who use such tactics, or those who make spurious historical analogies (the massacre at Srebrenica is, what, the Battle of Barnet: the siege of Sarajevo, what supposed to be analogous with something in the Wars of the Roses, or what? Mladic is, who , Oliver Cromwell. I agree the they are both fucking bastards and scum of the earth. I’d have loved the latter to have been brought up before an international court, tries and jailed to a lengthy sentence for his crimes).

Talk of “double standards” is almost always duplicitous (ironically): deal with the case at hand.

I feel I excell in mangled messes of verbiage.

You’re not kidding.

I was asking if you were an acolyte of the Communist Party of Britain. I asked this because Andrew Murray, who runs the STWC, is a big supporter of the Dear Leader, and that’s apparently the view of his party (the CBP).

I’m sure he’s popular. I don’t think I know of him but I did once have a Tae Kwon Do instructor who went by that name and Tae Kwon Do is Korean.

So if you’re not CBP, what are you? A random pro-Stalinist loon

You’re obviously engaged in an imaginary argument with some one else because so far I have said that you probably couldn’t make much of a case for saying Kim Jong-il is a war criminal, to which you have responded with “How dare you! You Stalinist! You filthy totalitarian lefty!”

What’s the substance of your attack, Ben? Show me where I have supported Kim Jong-il.

Ven: you haven’t answered my questions, and I repeat they are in good faith, and not all of them deal with your evident double standard.

However, since it may help lose your tongue, I agree with you that the massacre of Srebrenika was a genocide, that the siege of Sarajevo was a war crime, that every perpetrator of such acts must face trial. Ok? But that still is not a good argument why the RS must be disbanded against the will of its citizens.

“loose your tongue.”

Who are you Ven, to decide which is the true Serbian culture and which is a “parasitic” serbian culture? That is simply racism.

Ok? But that still is not a good argument why the RS must be disbanded against the will of its citizens.

Because the RS, by any stretch of the word, isn’t legitimate?

If the RS had been founded over a cup of tea and its founders had said “hang on bosnian chaps, we don’t want to be a part of bosnia, let’s have a referendum or census and the contigious bits that vote overwhelmingly for us can break away peacefully, and we’ll sort out some sort of compensation for any of your chaps who are in our areas and don’t want to stay, and our new country will respect their rights and all, and you Bosians really are spendid chaps anyway and we’ll trade with you for the common good and lets all break out the cigars why don’t we?” no one would have objected – after all, that’s what happened with Czechoslovakia.

But they didn’t. They chose genocide instead.

“If the RS had been founded over a cup of tea…”

Oh, yes, because that is how every state in the world was founded.

Hasan, where did you find the info about Vračar? I can’t seem to find much detail about the arrest.

Here.

Quisquis, I fear that you are right, but one can dream…As you intimate, there is nothing convenient at all about the timing of this. Koštunica wasn’t going to go looking for him, but now he’s out Tadić could send the boys in to show who’s boss. Perhaps today Tadić can find the time to meet the Turkish ambassador.

Couldn’t it be because the EU prevents its self-determination by force of arms?

Couldn’t it also be that the EU/UN structure imposed on BiH perpetuates the divisions and the rule by local extremists?

Question, I’m not sure about the ‘double standard’ concerning Pakistan. Pakistan was created by treaty, not by violence. The violence, for which India is as much to blame, happened after the treaty was signed. Regretting its existence seems no more strange to me than regretting the existence of, I dunno, a unitary Sudan. Republika Srpska was created by conquest; the UK and Germany were both created by treaties.

You are right that many refugees don’t return. It doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t therefore have the option. These are people whose homes and land has been taken and who had clear title; we’re not talking about a vague return of people generations after they left. If they want to return, let them; if they’d rather sell, that’s their business.

If someone from RS discovers a cure for cancer, then that is the achievement of the person who discovered the cure. It is not the achievement of the state, particularly not given the medical research facilities in the RS. I’m sure you’d say the same if it were an Albanian from Kosova who produced a cure for heart disease.

Oh, yes, because that is how every state in the world was founded.

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the example of Czechoslovakia above. “Let us work together on Velvet separation.” I believe is a relevant quote.

Don’t fuck with me, Devil. I’ve got better arguments and more corruscating humour.

“What’s the substance of your attack, Ben? Show me where I have supported Kim Jong-il.”

Thus:

“The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there.”

What did you mean by that? No “normal” “a-political” person would have made that point.

As it is, as I understand you, your point is that I endorse torture and that I am an Islamophobe. You also seem to be against – judging from my rather fruitless conversation with you and the other one going on at this time – what you would probably describe as “emotional spasms” aimed at genocidaires and dictators. Is that accurate?

You also seem to revel in the idea that the Iranian regime is untouchable.

Have I mischaracterised?

David All: I am not aware of any “re-education” programmes involving Yugoslav psychiatry. Tito tended to be even more brutal with dissidents than the contemporary USSR (he was after all still shooting German prisoners in the mid fifties.) Reading up on what happened to Milovan Đilas might help.

Ho Ven you have made my day by making real the absolute irony of a supporter of the Catholic church (whose death toll runs into millions) calling for Cromwell (40,000 at most) to be put on trial for “crimes”!

hasan: you don’t know what you are talking about. Regarding Pakistan, you mean that because a piece of paper was initialed, Pakistan as it exists today, with its demographic change brought about by war and ethnic cleansing, has the right to exist? But the RS does not because it could not get a piece of paper from the Bosniaks to recognize its desire to self-determination?
Regarding Germany: Germany was created through wars, especially against the Austro-Hungarian empire.

“You are right that many refugees don’t return. It doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t therefore have the option”

I think that this rule actually does more wrong than right. The RS could achieve some kind of compensation arrangement with the refugees without the need for a right of return. It creates a psychological pressure and maybe from there you can talk lightly about the “sense of war” and “genocidal nationalism” you perceive. Let the citizens of RS live without the fear of being outvoted again, and the fear will pass.

Morgoth: “I refer the right honourable gentleman to the example of Czechoslovakia above.”
I don’t have to deal with the example of Czechoslovaquia. They deserve my respect. But my argument is that not every country seceded like the Czecks and Eslovaks, and you don’t call them loathsome illegitimate entities.

“I’m sure you’d say the same if it were an Albanian from Kosova who produced a cure for heart disease.”

Yes, actually I say the same. I wish all the best to Albanians and Kosovares in their new states.
I am not the racist here.

But my argument is that not every country seceded like the Czecks and Eslovaks, and you don’t call them loathsome illegitimate entities.

What has happened in the Balkans and what is happening there, and its ramifications are current – that’s the difference. There is little point in debating the existance of countries formed after WW2 for example, even if someone of them involved mass slaughter in their foundings.

“What has happened in the Balkans and what is happening there, and its ramifications are current – that’s the difference”

Morgoth that is not a good argument at all, and the problem is the lack of a clear definition. What exactly is “current” in Bosnia?

I refer the right honourable gentleman to this morning’s headlines.

By the way, funny hearing from you a voice of multiculturalism. I had expected that you would say: if they keep with their religion we should send the Serbs to the RS, the Bosniaks to the Federation and the Croats to the Krajina.

What?

What, Morgoth? the arrest of the war criminal Karadzic? good for the Serbs and humankind.
But what does it have to do with the right to exist of the RS?

In terms of “Republika Srpska” I don’t think anyone should forget that it was as much a creation of Radovan Karadžić and the so-called “Serb Democratic Party” as the Reichskommissariat “settlements” in Eastern Europe were creations of the nazis. Whether such land-grabs and ethnic cleansings should be rewarded after the criminal regime which created them (not to say the criminal regime which made THAT regime possible) is long gone is surely down to the world community to decide.

Don’t fuck with me, Devil. I’ve got better arguments and more corruscating humour.

I only see a lot of foot-stamping.

“The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there.”

What did you mean by that? No “normal” “a-political” person would have made that point.

This is the sad truth. I think you may be of the idea that facing reality isn’t normal but the level of dissent in North Korea is just about non-existent. There have been reports that there may be some fledgling dissent and a little graffiti here and there but apart from that I see no other conclusion than that they do genuinely like him. It may seem bizarre to you that they could but you haven’t been raised in that environment. Read Bradley K. Martin’s book on North Korea if you don’t believe me.

As it is, as I understand you, your point is that I endorse torture and that I am an Islamophobe.

Well, yes, you have appeared to endorse torture:

I just think he ought to be shot. Actually, preferrably tortured horribly before being shot.

As for whether you are an Islamophobe, I have told you already that that is your word not mine. I think modern political language is rather cluttered with this kind of neologism that you and your opponents are very industrious in creating. I try to avoid them where possible so please stop this masochistic demand for me to use it on you, it’s weird for me.

You also seem to revel in the idea that the Iranian regime is untouchable.

I am actually of the hope that they will be brought down by their own people but I also am hopeful that there won’t be a war soon in Iran. Would you like to see one, Ben? I kind of get the impression that a war on Iran would have you dancing in the streets.

So now every serb is a nazi? And a democratic RS cannot exist? Nice.
I suppose you apply the same reasoning to the Muslim majority states in the world.
It is obvious then that Egypt lost its right to exist the day it expelled its Jewish population…

You also seem to be against – judging from my rather fruitless conversation with you and the other one going on at this time – what you would probably describe as “emotional spasms” aimed at genocidaires and dictators. Is that accurate?

What are you blithering about?

What “other one” going on at this time?

I think that the EU did not prevent the war in Bosnia, and now is preventing a solution. And I fear all that arrogance, like Venichka that calls the serb culture “parasitic”, of Graham, that compares the serbs to nazis, etc. and the complete and utterly double standard applied to the RS in contrast to almost every country in the world.

“Whether such land-grabs and ethnic cleansings should be rewarded after the criminal regime which created them (not to say the criminal regime which made THAT regime possible) is long gone is surely down to the world community to decide.”

No, it is surely down to the new democratic regime of the RS to decide. It should pay compensation, ok, and bring to trial perpetrators. But the RS has as much right to exist as any other country in the world, most of whom, are hateful dictatorships, much worse than the RS.

Why, for example, the present fate of the territory of Chile – after the dictatorship of Pinochet and the dissappeared and genocides its regime carried out there- is not for the world community to decide?

So now every serb is a nazi? And a democratic RS cannot exist?

I very much doubt it is possible to read that into what I said don’t you?

And Chile even stole territory from Bolivia…

No, it is surely down to the new democratic regime of the RS to decide.

No. I’d say it is for the new democratic regime of Bosnia as a whole to decide.

I say, Graham, that no country has a clean past. If the Serbs now want to have a democratic state that respect human rights, but without the sword of Damocles of the right of return hanging over their heads, I say let them. And you will see the decrease in the nationalist feelings there, gradually, as in every other place in the world.

Oh FFS (again) I no more called the Serb culture “parasitic” than Graham said “every Serb is a Nazi”. In both cases our criticisms were quite explicitly, specifically, and clearly, orientated towards the leaders and administrators of a specific polity.

If you are claiming that the genocidal polity/Mosque and Catholic Church Demolition Unit (with associated people removal unit) in Eastern and Northern Bosnia and Herzegovina is in some way representative of what Serbian culture consititutes…it’s quite clear who the “racist” is.

I wonder what Felix Quigley thinks….

“No. I’d say it is for the new democratic regime of Bosnia as a whole to decide.”

Emm, no. Because of the very fact that the serbs of the RS don’t want to be a part of Bosnia, don’t recognize themselves in that state, and want to exercize their right of self-determination. Moreover, because the only argument you have to prevent that is force of arms.

And RS is NOT, never has been, and never could be a country. Check the Dayton Accords – which (foolishly in my view) constituted them. It is an entity, a sub-unit of a country.

“In both cases our criticisms were quite explicitly, specifically, and clearly, orientated towards the leaders and administrators of a specific polity.”

That are voted by the people. But you don’t want to hear the people. Maybe the people are their own parasites?

“If you are claiming that the genocidal polity/Mosque and Catholic Church Demolition Unit (with associated people removal unit) in Eastern and Northern Bosnia and Herzegovina is in some way representative of what Serbian culture consititutes…it’s quite clear who the “racist” is.”

I am not claiming that.

“And RS is NOT, never has been, and never could be a country. Check the Dayton Accords – which (foolishly in my view) constituted them. It is an entity, a sub-unit of a country.”

What a foolish argument.

Question, ‘Pakistan as it exists today’ was not brought about either by conquest or by treaty but by losing East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. Can you tell me what was ‘ethnically cleansed’ by the Pakistani army in 1947 and with whom they were at war? Pakistan was a created by the settlement that arose out of the British leaving India; to suggest that this was a state created by war and ethnic cleansing puts the cart before the horse and shows a profound ignorance of history. The RS was created by conquest by the VRS, VJ and associated paramilitaries. Gaining territory by conquest happens to be illegal.

Germany was created through wars, especially against the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Prussian dominance in Germany was created through wars; Prussia fought Austria (it was before the Ausgleich), not Germany. You forget that there were other states involved that joined Germany through treaty, not through conquest.

It creates a psychological pressure and maybe from there you can talk lightly about the “sense of war” and “genocidal nationalism” you perceive. Let the citizens of RS live without the fear of being outvoted again, and the fear will pass.

I.e., give anyone from Eastern Bosnia who isn’t Serb any rights concerning what we took from them, and we’ll start fighting. From your reply, I see that it is not enforcing a right of return that reinforces a ’sense of war’ and ‘genocidal nationalism.’

It seems to me that you are unable to tell between a state and the people who live within its borders. Such a person does not legitimise a country any more than Marconi legitimised Italy or Max Planck Germany.

Además, no veo nada racista en lo que he dicho. ¿Se puede mostrarme? After all, what is racist about asking the Serbs of Bosnia (or Kosova) to tolerate living in a country with other people? Do you think the Serbs of Montenegro should have their own state? If so, which path should they choose? Electoral politics or genocide?

You may think it that, but it is a FACT. Not even Russia _ NOT EVEN MILOSEVIC’S SERBIA – would back in 1995/96 (or, I think, even now) would recognize RS as a country.

If it is a country, how come it doesn’t have its own flag or symbols or anthem?

I’ve been there, I know which ones they use. They seem…remarkably similar to those of…another country.

To take your points in turn (which is frankly rather yawnsville, because you are a troll):

A: I profoundly doubt that the people of North Korea love their Party and Leader. The fact that there is no dissent is because it is both a slave state and a police state. You clearly think otherwise. This makes you an amoral cunt.

B: I know what I wrote.

C: As to your neologism point, I am glad we agree that the term “Islamophobe” signifies very little, if anything.

D: I suspect you are an “anti-imperialist”. This makes you a cunt. Again. Twice over. I do not seek a war with the Iranian regime (interesting your use of the word “on” there). We may need at some point to dispose of their nuclear facilities. This will not require a war. I am glad we both agree that the regime should be deposed by the in many instances liberal people of that beautiful and wonderful civilisation.

This discussion is at an end. You are not discussing your views in good faith. As is plain to see.

Sarah, I wish I had your confidence. I enjoyed your article a while back when I read it on your blog. But even if the court agrees with you, it’s a big step for the Serbs, even the more moderate ones, to backtrack on rhetoric that allows for no compromise on Kosova. Even their talk of how Kosova should be governed by their own ministry for Kosovo and Metohija never mentions the existence of Albanians at all. The only people who live there, apparently, are Serbs. It’s hard to see how we can get past that attitude, not to mention the view that every decision that goes against Serbia is simply a sign of bias, and that the Serbs have a God-given right to do whatever they like.

A current case of this is that of the unfortunate Brooklyn college student Bryan Steinhauer, who made the mistake in Binghamton NY of asking to dance the girlfriend of Miladin Kovacevic, a Serbian student twice his size. He remains in a coma two months later. Serbian officials in the US helped Kovacevic flee back to Serbia despite his having had to surrender his passport. Now Kovacevic has been given the opportunity to sign a deal to play basketball in Serbia and has been assured by the foreign minister Jeremic that he will not have to return to the US to face justice. Kovacevic’s father said his son was “a victim of small-town values ganging up against a foreigner. He was targeted because he was a Serb and a very large man.”

A small thing, maybe (of course not for Steinhauer), but I think a metaphor for more general attitudes.

“Pakistan was a created by the settlement that arose out of the British leaving India; to suggest that this was a state created by war and ethnic cleansing puts the cart before the horse and shows a profound ignorance of history.”

Pakistan was created because the Muslims couldn’t agree with the Indus about living together in one country.
War came afterwards, of course.
And millions were displaced changing the demographics of every state.

“The RS was created by conquest by the VRS, VJ and associated paramilitaries. Gaining territory by conquest happens to be illegal.”

But the RS was “legitimized” with the Dayton Accords. And the serbs want to keep it. So if the Dayton Accords are illegal, what the fuck is doing the OHR there?

“I.e., give anyone from Eastern Bosnia who isn’t Serb any rights concerning what we took from them, and we’ll start fighting.”

No. Of course I am in favor of monetary compensation, but not so sure of the right of return.

“It seems to me that you are unable to tell between a state and the people who live within its borders. Such a person does not legitimise a country any more than Marconi legitimised Italy or Max Planck Germany.”

No, that is not the issue. Again, the legitimacy, or right to exist of any country comes from its own people, who are willing to fight for it. The image of a country on the other hand, is made by its culture. And Ven has an image of the RS as a “loathsome illegitimate entity”. But of course, if I called the UK loathsome, on account of its past, Ven would disagree on account of its present.
So let the RS develop democratically with self-determination, and you will be able to have a good image of it on account of its present.

(or its future, more precisely)

“I’ve been there, I know which ones they use. They seem…remarkably similar to those of…another country.”

Your arguments continue to be very foolish, Ven.

I say: if the RS wants to be an independent country, let them.
if the RS wants to unite with Serbia, let them too.

You say: “the RS is not a country, see here, it is written in this little paper I have in my pocket”. And “The RS is not a country, you see, I can’t find any flag with a green color, take that, self-determination”

Duh.

But the RS was “legitimized” with the Dayton Accords.

Yes, but not as a COUNTRY, but a sub-unit of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a state in which the rule of law was to apply equally to all citizens, regardless of ethnicity – something that the RS authorities (and the Herzegovinian Croats in “Kanton 10″, too, and for a while in Mostar city authorities also) have regularly done their utmost to impede.

The DAYTON ACCORDS DID NOT LEGITIMISE RS AS A COUNTRY, OR AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AS A CONSTITUENT ENTITY OF BiH.

And the right to return was also legitimised by the Dayton Accords.

You can’t have your cevapcici and eat them

Ven: you are arguing like a lawyer.
I am considering the situation as a politician.
Whenever you want to go back to politics, wake me up.

For me the important thing is not that the RS is in the Dayton Accords, but that the serbs want to keep it. I just brought that because hasan wrote “The RS was created by conquest by the VRS, VJ and associated paramilitaries. Gaining territory by conquest happens to be illegal” and it seems then that the Dayton accords are illegal.

And Ven, your argument, when it is not about the color of the ink, seems to be: “well, yeah, the RS could have a right to exist, but, you see how bad they treat their minorities, so, I am taking that right away”.

An argument that you don’t make regarding any other country in the world. That is what I call double standard. Why the RS’s right to exist depend on how well represented are Bosniaks in the municipality of Banja Luka? Do you make the same argument regarding the representation of Copts in Luxor, and the right to exist of Egypt?

I am considering the situation as a politician.

Yes, indeed, a politician of a party whose leader is currently on trial at The Hague

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojislav_%C5%A0e%C5%A1elj

What a stupid thing to say, Ven.

I can’t be arsed to deal with this “double standards” bollocks, I really can’t – whenever I see anyone here using this term it’s a clear case of “meanwhiling”, trying to turn the table onto someone else’s crimes, to avoid valid and deserved punishment for their own.

And “I don’t make that argument about any other country”. Well, as this discussion is about Karadzic, the topic as hand is not some other place.

I do wish nationalists (of whichever nationality) would learn to stop whining and whinging. Self-pity is not an attractive or positive characteristic, nor is that of pretending to be persecuted or singled out when you are in fact the subject of valid criticism.

But yes, Northern Ireland, Romania, Greece, Turkey, Slovakia, wherever…obviously members of minority groups should be treated the same as those of majority groups.

And frankly what is wrong with Egypt’s government goes way beyond the treatment of minority groups.

And expecting non-democracies to behave in the sameway as democracies (which you are claiming RS to be)…is a nice idea, but wildly optimistic, however much one might wish it to be so. But then again there is no chance of Egypt being admitted to the EU any time soon (nor would there be of RS were it to be an independent country), whereas for BiH or Serbia….it is a realistic possibility, if they play by the rules

That are voted by the people. But you don’t want to hear the people.

Hitler was voted by the people should we have heard the people?

To recapitulate: I came here with a question: why not respect the desire for self-determination of the people of the RS? With a true desire for understanding.

I was answered with blatant double standards, ad hominem, arguments that “things must be like this because things are like this in this paper”, false alegations of respecting the right to exist of all the countries because they have a clean past, and a lot of hatred and intolerance towards the desires of the serbs of Bosnia that is reflected in the zero hopes for the contribution towards humankind that a sovereign RS might provide (as if you could have expected much from Germany after WW2).

I have never denied any genocide, and I have supported the trial of perpetrators of war crimes.

I go with the feeling that hatred of serbs is what remains of Ven’s and other’s argument.

“Hitler was voted by the people should we have heard the people?”

Hitler was voted in and almost immediately proscribed the rest of the parties and instaurated a dictatorship.

The serbs of the RS don’t want a dictatorship. They just want their own state, or to be free to decide to belong to Serbia.

Yes, if in doubt, allege “hatred” at your opponent if you can’t get them to degree.

Generally an effective technique in these corrupt and dishonest times.

And interestingly, usually one committed by the most hatefilled and unprepared to co-exist with those who differ from them, themselves.

Again, the legitimacy, or right to exist of any country comes from its own people, who are willing to fight for it.

Morgoth (of all people) pointed this out to you earlier (and you chose to make a silly comment) but we are not living in an age where Kings plant their flags and decide to “fight for it”. We are living in an age where we strive towards international law (which in itself is not by any means near perfection.) You may choose to want to live like a 16th century feudal Lord but you will have to recognise that such people do not hold the power in the word as it is today. Personally I have no problem with the subject of RS coming before the UN and being examined for a lasting solution (whatever that may be) but there will be no lasting solution until a “statelet” which was the blatant creation of war criminals is dissolved and the world decides upon new borders (if any.) To do anything else would be to reward racist murderers on a grand scale.

“agree” not “degree”.

Anyway, there is no point in continuing this argument. You clearly are not arguing “in good faith”

More ad hominem, Ven?

If I might add some general thought about this discussion, I would like to signal that political liberalism has not find a good answer to the threat of separatist movements.
Inside a state, it can promise – and most times deliver – equality before the law, freedom and security. It does so because it follows the will of the people expresed in their votes.
But what happens when a sector of the people stops desiring to be part of that liberal state? Liberalism has not a good answer. The only answer is coercive power to maintain the integrity of the territory.
Part of Venichka’s exhasperation comes from me forcing him to stand over the abyss of his political philosophy. Where it ends providing good answers. I understand that.
But part of his exhasperation comes from hatred of the self-determination of the serbs (not of the Serbs, mind you, not of the good Serbs that “play by the rules”, like the good Jews that don’t have nationalist ideas in their unruly heads, but of the bad Serbs). And I can’t accept that.
Best,

And millions were displaced changing the demographics of every state.

And the people to blame are the British, the Muslim League and the Congress Party, besides those who actually committed the crimes. However, there is a difference in that neither the Muslim League nor the other two parties planned, armed and carried out the mass murder and cleansing of Muslims in India or Hindus and Sikhs in what became Pakistan.

what the fuck is doing the OHR there?

That is a very good question. Many feel that the sooner he leaves the better.

The image of a country on the other hand, is made by its culture.

Your original question was if tomorrow a researcher in Republika Srpska, funded by the state, discovers a cure for cancer or some other useful invention, would you still keep your view that “It would have been better if it had never been founded” or, “that loathsome illegitimate entity should be disbanded”?

What you are saying here is that a citizen discovering the cure for cancer would change people’s views about the legitimacy of the RS. I disagree – Jonas Salk’s creation of the polio vaccine, funded in part by the US government, does not change people’s views of the legitimacy of the US one iota.

Read all about the case of Bryan Steinhauer here.

And yes, where is JP?

I’m here Morgoth!

And what can I say?

Except that you’re all wrong because of the sin of omission?

Yes, those Serbs were evil, but no more so than any other Balkan actors.

And so to continue to demonise and intimidate Serbia ( considered far more democratic than either Albania or Kosovo according to ALL UN standards), while passing over in silence the horrendous atrocities committed by the Bosniak, Croats and Albanians is utter foolishness.

In fact, the whole Balkan gamble is a busted flush, and it is a busted flush because in the 90s ( and this is still the case with many) we knew nothing about jihad, dhimmitude, islamist deceit etc.

We were had.

There are austere Wahabbi mosques ( compounds really) in Sarajevo, and retired Arab and Pakistani jihadis residing in Bosnia and dicking young, blond 12 and 13 year old Bosnian girls

Wahabbi and Muslim Brotherhood websites the world over celebrate Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo.

I am opposed to Wahabbism, the Muslim Brotherhood and radical islamists the world over, and so I dare not celebrate.

Titter and gavotte.

“But we are not living in an age where Kings plant their flags and decide to “fight for it”.”

I disagree. However, I consider that the will of the people, in this case the Serbs is not the same that the will of a King.

“To do anything else would be to reward racist murderers on a grand scale.”
Of course not. You bring to trial those that commited war crimes, and let the rest of the Serbian people live freely in their own state. In thirty years there will be a new generation of people born in the RS, people who will not be guilty of anything but will still have a desire for self-determination. You are preventing a solution. How many years is the UN stationed in Cyprus already!?

Don’t fuck with me, Devil. I’ve got better arguments and more corruscating humour

A: I profoundly doubt that the people of North Korea love their Party and Leader. The fact that there is no dissent is because it is both a slave state and a police state. You clearly think otherwise. This makes you an amoral cunt.

This is barely an argument, let alone a good one so I take it it is a joke. Well, it’s not a very funny one. The reason why there is no dissent is because the brainwashing is total. They truly believe that the US, the Japanese and the “running god lackeys” of South Korea are the cause of their misfortune. The support of the regime by its people is genuine no matter what you or I want to think. I think you have shown a general petulance when it comes to people who disagree with you.

B: I know what I wrote.

That shouldn’t be much to brag about.

C: As to your neologism point, I am glad we agree that the term “Islamophobe” signifies very little, if anything.

So, I’m doing alright for a “cunt” then.

D: I suspect you are an “anti-imperialist”. This makes you a cunt. Again. Twice over. I do not seek a war with the Iranian regime (interesting your use of the word “on” there). We may need at some point to dispose of their nuclear facilities. This will not require a war. I am glad we both agree that the regime should be deposed by the in many instances liberal people of that beautiful and wonderful civilisation.

No war, just a bombing campaign. I see.

It is bizarre that you think I have not been clear about what I think. I have been upfront on any questions you have asked. You merely misinterpreted and misrepresented something I said earlier about Kim Jong-il and have been pursuing this discussion since then. Well, you initiated it and so now you’re severing it.

I disagree. However, I consider that the will of the people, in this case the Serbs is not the same that the will of a King.

Well that is why you are discussing this on a blog whilst the world goes about its business in the way it is done in the year 2008.

As for the will of the Serbian people have they even been asked yet in a free vote whether they would want the areas which would formerly be known as “Republica Srpska?” It is not a forgone conclusion that they would no matter what self-selected “Kings” of the Serbian psyche want us to beleive By all means let the Serbs have a referendum and the Bosnians and Croats too and based on this let the UN come up with a solution.

No-body here has been demonizing or intimidating Serbia: there is a hell of a lot of good to be said about Serbia, actually.

Republika Srpska – I repeat, an illegitimate entity founded on genocide, forced expulsion (not least the forced expulsion at the behest of RS itself of ethnic Serbs who wished to continue living in those parts of Sarajevo in the Federation, AFTER the Dayton Accords had been signed) and ethnic cleansing, and maintained by policies of ethnic discrimination….a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is a different matter.

And you’re damn right: I do distinguish between good Serbs and bad Serbs, the same as I do for any other nationality or group.

“By all means let the Serbs have a referendum and the Bosnians and Croats too and based on this let the UN come up with a solution.”

Why not?

Ups, sorry, my “why not?” was to the referendum. I don’t think the UN has to come up with a solution. The UN has not a very good track of enforcing its own solutions.

The UN has not a very good track of enforcing its own solutions.

I’m sure that I don’t need to point out to you that the UN’s record of imposing solutions is a lot better than that of Serb governments of recent years.

“And you’re damn right: I do distinguish between good Serbs and bad Serbs, the same as I do for any other nationality or group.”

Ven, you are distorting my argument. My argument is that for you the bad Serbs are the ones who want self-determination, not just the “bad people”. Seriously, and you continue to accuse me or arguing in bad faith.

And the issue is not separatism per se (eg it’s not inconceivable that Scotland could gain independence from the UK in the foreseeable future by referendum) – the issue is how the territory/entity of RS was formed.

There used to be a fantastically self-pitying whinging rant on the RS Government website complaining about the “co-efficient between the vertical and horizontal boundaries of Republika Srpska, which was exceeded in the world only by that of the boundaries of Chile, and which made it an exceptionally difficult territory to govern”

To which the only reasonable response would be “well you should have ethnically cleansed a circular-shaped area then”

here: http://web.archive.org/web/20021203214259/www.vladars.net/cr/srpska/index.html

“And the issue is not separatism per se (eg it’s not inconceivable that Scotland could gain independence from the UK in the foreseeable future by referendum) – the issue is how the territory/entity of RS was formed.”

No, that is not the issue, because dozens of countries have borders defined by wars.

“To which the only reasonable response would be “well you should have ethnically cleansed a circular-shaped area then””

Funny. Somewhat.

No, that is not the issue, because dozens of countries have borders defined by wars.

Dozens of countries were not however formed by war criminals who are about to go on trial having been (finally) captured by the will of the people who (you tell us anyway) support Republika Srpska.

“I’m sure that I don’t need to point out to you that the UN’s record of imposing solutions is a lot better than that of Serb governments of recent years.”

I’m sure that I don’t need to point out that that doesn’t mean anything.

Oh, shut up, Graham, if the Serbs didn’t want the RS you would know about it. It has nothing to do with the way it was formed, or you would be decrying the right to exist of Turkey.

I’m sure that I don’t need to point out that that doesn’t mean anything.

I’m sure that I don’t need to tell you that it does but that your eyes and ears are closed to it which makes talking to you, as someone unable to deal with reality, rather pointless.

if the Serbs didn’t want the RS you would know about it.

Presumably in the same fantastic way that you do know they want it? We should make world policy decisions on the basis of a blog trolls fantasies?

lol

Wahabbi and Muslim Brotherhood websites the world over celebrate Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo.

On Kosova, which sites, JP? Can we have some URLs? I remember you told us about this at the time of independence. You turned out to be referring to Islam Online, which carried a few dry news articles. And Islam Online still has many more articles and Islamic stories about Canada than Kosova and Albania put together.

Now I am a troll? just because we disagree. I see that you do this very often Graham, you are unable to have a good argument that lasts more than two or three comments. You start having flame wars with others and reducing all to “I know more than you. You are a troll, etc, etc.” Well, I am no troll, but I disagree and you haven’t convinced me.

When I disparaged the UN – and with good reason – it was because you keep with your “let the international community decide” crap. Self-determination is not for the “international community” to decide. It is for serbs, bosniaks and croats in Bosnia to decide. You came with a straw man, as if I were defending what happened in the war in Bosnia. Again, no. But I still think that the UN talks much but does little, and it is not an institution I trust.

It is a pity that the level of arguments against my position in this thread is so low. I am collecting ad hominem.

Wahabbi and Muslim Brotherhood websites the world over celebrate Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo.

This one, for example(he wrote facetiously)

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/9249

Dressed like a true Wahhabi

“We should make world policy decisions on the basis of a blog trolls fantasies?”

Who is “we”?

Now I am a troll? just because we disagree. I see that you do this very often Graham

Felix the whole point is that you don’t have an argument which exists outside your own head – and you also started with the insults so don’t whine like a baby when you get insulted back (even though “troll” about sums up somebody who is unable to live in the world as it actually exists and instead wants to have fantasy arguments with people on blogs who got fed up with his time-wasting bullshit about three years back.

Lets get this straight. There will be no solution to republika Srpska without the Bosnians. the Americans and the UN. At present the Bosnians and Americans are adamant (as they have been since the nineties) that there will be absolutely NO border changes. I have suggested that in reality that there could be but you do not wish to talk about this not about the The Stabilization and Association Agreement signed in june – you just want to retread some old descredited Serb nationalist fantasies. At present your man Dodik (being more of a realist than the loony Serb nationalist apologists found on blogs) has much smaller hopes – he thinks that if he waits long enough the OHR will go away and be replaced by an EU Mission with less power and influence and that the Americans will then slip away leaving him facing a powerless EU Quango. Unfortunately in the real world his dreams are about as likely to happen as your own ones of might Serb warriors planting a flag and declaring the land to be theirs. So there is very little point continuing to talk to you on any level.

Who is “we”?

The world?

I am not Felix. You are debating with your own ghosts, Graham.

“At present the Bosnians and Americans are adamant (as they have been since the nineties) that there will be absolutely NO border changes. I have suggested that in reality that there could be but you do not wish to talk about this (????) not about the The Stabilization and Association Agreement signed in june” (????).

Be my guest. Talk.

“[THE WORLD] should make world policy decisions on the basis of a blog trolls fantasies?”

??

Be my guest. Talk.

Why? You have shown yourself unable to deal with anything that goes against your preconceived ideas – I have no intention of wasting my time.

“[THE WORLD] should make world policy decisions on the basis of a blog trolls fantasies?”

is there something difficult to understand about the suggestion that the world shouldn’t Felix?

And you’re damn right: I do distinguish between good Serbs and bad Serbs, the same as I do for any other nationality or group.

I’m quite sure you do. However such distinctions mean nothing unless you are equally able to apply the same criticial standards to all the other Balkan actors.

Can you distinguish between good Croats and bad ones, or between good Bosniaks and bad ones?

How’s about between good Albanians and bad ones?

And as for ethnic cleansing?

When will the 300,000 innocent Serb chased out of the Kajina be allowed to reintegrate their homes?

And we should remember that those expulsions took place before Srebrenica.

You people are wrong, and I think the error of perceptions the crafty jihadis managed to pull off, and into which all here, due to certain soft prejudices, awkwardly stumbled, is slowly wearing off.

But the pride feeding those soft prejudices isn’t, unfortunately, and so what are you all celebrating, exactly?

Your own willful stupidity?

Your own historical amnesia?

This posting (and attached comments) remind me of that scene in the second ‘Hannibal’ movie, the one in which Mr Lector actually convinces a drunken gay to use a shard of glass to rip his own face off.

Now remember, Islamophobia is the scourge of our age ( ask the Brotherhood!), Muslims are the New Jews ( just ask a Wahabbi!) and Serbs, the temporal agents of a right-wing, Christian Satan (ask any rabid Islamist!).

“I have no intention of wasting my time.”
I thought this was a place of debate. If you consider that you are wasting your time in HP, then why are you here?

“is there something difficult to understand about the suggestion that the world shouldn’t Felix?”
The statement has no sense. And I am not Felix.

I am sorry to say that you are the worst debater in Harry’s Place. You are a waste of time. I prefer Venichka, which in a sense agreed she was defeated when she said she was tired of hearing about the double standards argument. An argument she could not refute.

You, instead of saying you are tired, you say I am wasting your time. As if you had the upper hand here, you silly.

When will the 300,000 innocent Serb chased out of the Kajina be allowed to reintegrate their homes?

*guffaw*.

Innocent?

Don’t make me laugh.

Next you’ll be telling me that Milan Babić was merely misunderstood.

“he could not refute”. Ven is a man.

Anyway, it was good to debate, I guess?

I thought this was a place of debate.

Really? You could have fooled me after some of your polemics and misunderstandings above. And I don’t feel I am wasting my time at HP I feel I am wasting my time with you (get it now?)

I am sorry to say that you are the worst debater in Harry’s Place. You are a waste of time.

Why do you so badly want my attention then Felix? Personally I only debate with those worth debating and you have shown you are totally incapable (I won’t go into how if you feel you are wasting your time what are you doing at HP crap because that would be as silly and childish as you doing it wouldn’t it?)

Babić was a doctor too (a dentist)

What kind of idiot cuts and pastes a statement such as:

And you’re damn right: I do distinguish between good Serbs and bad Serbs, the same as I do for any other nationality or group.

And adds the comment:

Can you distinguish between good Croats and bad ones, or between good Bosniaks and bad ones?

You have to despair at the level of intelligence of some of these people!

Graham: I only wasted my time with you. Ok?
For the last time, I am not Felix, you idiot!
I know Felix from HP, he posts long tracts and never listens. I am not like that at all. But your answers are crap.

Venichka’s answers were less crappy, but he is too close to the issue to respond less emotionally.

I like Brett, David T and Neil D. Brownie, more or less.
I like HP. But I don’t like you.

I like HP. But I don’t like you.

Awww I’m all hurt…

Do you even know who Milorad Dodik is? I doubt it somehow.

And stop wasting everyone’s time. Ignore me, if you please, but stop with the flaming.

And Felix – we are not obliged to debate with every air-headed fantasist who appears trying to sell us his naive bollocks – get it?

Can you distinguish between good Croats and bad ones, or between good Bosniaks and bad ones?

How about this from Venichka: Something which could not unreasonably be described as akin to “Croat fascism” is certainly preached around Medogorje, while the hard-line, exclusionary, rejectionist stance of RS on very many issuesis far from a secret.

How’s about between good Albanians and bad ones?

Can you? This might be quite a novelty.

“And Felix – we are not obliged to debate with every air-headed fantasist who appears trying to sell us his naive bollocks – get it?”

Then shut up, Mickey.

Felix my answers were much more in tune with what the present Govt of Republika Srpska says it wants than anyone else’s so it is good to see you reveal yourself as somebody more interested in childish personal vendettas than in debate!

What a total prick. What an utter loser, Mickey.

Anyway, does Venichka think that what the present govt. of the RS says it wants is not constrained by the armed forces the EU has on its territory?

When has Dodik been constrained by anything from saying what he wants before you dumb arse?

God you really are stupid and have no idea at all about this subject!

The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there.

Of course he’s liked. The penalties for not liking him are severe.

I think we need to vet people who want to talk about Bosnia or we will be overun by these idiots who only have a vague idea where the place is.

Above all what the Govt of “RS” says it wants is constrained by the fact that it is, as an entity (that is, sub-national unit) government, subordinate to the (state) Govt of BiH, the terms of Dayton, and the engagements of BiH with the international community and its commitments thereto, including the retention of BiH’s existing external boundaries.

“When will the 300,000 innocent Serb chased out of the Kajina be allowed to reintegrate their homes?

And we should remember that those expulsions took place before Srebrenica.”

No they didn’t. The Srebrenica massacre was in July 1995. Operation Storm was in August 1995. And there were not more than about 200,000 Serbs who left Krajina in 1995, including tens of thousands of soldiers who were far from innocent…

John P.’s anti-Muslim chauvinism leads him to an ill-informed, inaccurate attempt to mitigate the crimes of Serb fascism. He can’t even celebate the arrest of a genocidal mass-murderer – because his victims were Muslims. Really sickening…

Some of these anti-Muslim chauvinists really should go and spend some time living among the Muslim peoples of Bosnia and Kosova; they might actually learn something about European values of freedom and tolerance to replace their comic-book religious stereotypes…

“Above all what the Govt of “RS” says it wants is constrained by the fact that it is, as an entity (that is, sub-national unit) government, subordinate to the (state) Govt of BiH, the terms of Dayton, and the engagements of BiH with the international community and its commitments thereto, including the retention of BiH’s existing external boundaries.”

And by the fact that the OHR has dismissed from power forcefully any nationalist politician that posed a threat to the integrity of a state most people don’t want.

If Dodic started behaving “not by the rules” how long until he would be sacked by the EU?

a state most people don’t want.

If most people don’t want it then it is probably a good idea to scrap it and start again no? Then the new entity won’t be tainted by having been founded on ethnic cleansing.

If Dodic started behaving “not by the rules” how long until he would be sacked by the EU?

Are you really suggesting that politicians should not obey all the rules and agreements that they have made? You are a bigger lunatic and fantasist than I thought!

Sounds like a recipe for a new Milosevic to me – oh but that is exactly what you want isn’t it?

“not by the rules” of the EU, Mickey.

“not by the rules” of the EU, Mickey.

“Are you really suggesting that politicians should not obey all the rules and agreements that they have made? ”

Of course, that is the problem with separatist movements, Mickey. They don’t want to be part of what they were a part before.
This really is the ABC, Mickey.

In the real world those are (some of) the rules he is operating under (as Ven has pointed out.)

God alone knows what “rules” your fantasises are operating under Felix!

Of course, that is the problem with separatist movements

This is a seperatist movement which has just signed a Stabilization and Association Agreement with Bosnia right? Are you saying (and I think we all know by now that it would be part of your fantasises and not connected to the reality on the ground in any way) but are you saying that Dodik is signing these things with the express intention of not keeping to the rules?

Some of these anti-Muslim chauvinists really should go and spend some time living among the Muslim peoples of Bosnia and Kosova; they might actually learn something about European values of freedom and tolerance to replace their comic-book religious stereotypes

Marko still hasn’t explained how I, as a supposed “anti-Muslim chauvinist” fervently supported (and continue to do so) said Bosnian and Kosovoan Muslims and their aspirations of independence and freedom from Serbian genocide.

What’s my line, Marko?

What does it have to do a free trade agreement with the desire for self-determination, Mickey?
Does this agreement mean that forever and ever, the RS must be tied to B-H?
Just like Scotland is tied to the UK because it is part of the EU?

What does it have to do a free trade agreement with the desire for self-determination

You tell me Felix – its your whacky fantasy world where the president of this entity is signing agreements just to break them.

Is it possible for me to rejoice that a war criminal will be brought to justice but to disagree that Bosnia’s Republika Srpska should be incorporated into a unitary Bosnian state? From the comments here apparently not. But I haven’t being convinced by the arguments so far. These are my thoughts, admittedly not coherent and I welcome views expalining why I am looking at this the wrong way:

-How stable could a unitary state with a right of return (which would surely have to include a right of return for Serbs expelled from parts of Bosnia, Kosovo and Krajina) prove to be? A total right of return for Palestinians or Yemeni Jews to Yemen is not generally regarded as practicable.
-Cantonisation of communities seems to be the accepted solution in Kosovo, Cyprus or even Northern Ireland.
-The partition of Bosnia results from an internationally brockered treaty (the Dayton Accords)
-Many modern states have resulted from conquest within living memory, yet are now fully accepted. As an example the Federal Republic of Germany which was set up by the occupying Allies and indeed resulted from some ethnic cleansing (in the Sudetenland, Silesia, East Prussia). Of course I would say that this is now a legitimate state due to subsequent democratic elections endorsing the establishment of the Federal Republic. Both parts of Bosnia have held elections since 1995.
-Surely Bosnian Serb citizens within an unitary Bosnian state would vote in large numbers for a Bosnian Serb nationalist party; would the Bosnian government in that case be right to block a ‘velvet divorce’?
-Didn’t the rift first start when Bosnian Serbs were denied a peaceful means to secede – Bosniak leader Itzebegovic said ‘I would sacrifice peace for [Bosnian] sovereignty’?
-I am left with the nagging feeling that because the Bosnian Serbs had access to better weapons from the JNA and their despicable leaders at the time, Karadzic and Mladic, directed their forces to commit the worst crimes; progressive opinion must now conclude that they cannot have any legitimate opinions on how they are ruled.

And did you really just compare a statelet founded 10 years ago by racists and ethnic cleansers with Scotland?

You really have no sense of proportion at al, do you?

And did you really just compare a statelet founded 10 years ago by racists and ethnic cleansers with Scotland?

The life expectancy in Republika Srpska is probably greater.

Mickey, keep your upity colonial ways out of the debate. We are talking about people here, what people want, not about ” a statelet founded 10 years ago by racists and ethnic cleansers”. Your words remind me of the worst racists who speak about “that shitty little country Israel” and pretend to be friends of the Jews.

In other words, fuck you, and your arrogant racism, Mickey.

As Jed mentioned:
“-I am left with the nagging feeling that because the Bosnian Serbs had access to better weapons from the JNA and their despicable leaders at the time, Karadzic and Mladic, directed their forces to commit the worst crimes; progressive opinion must now conclude that they cannot have any legitimate opinions on how they are ruled.”

Is Jed also Felix, you drunk?

People want all sorts of things: it doesn’t follow that its legitimate that they should get them. Rule of law and all that.

What exactly is objectionable or dishonest in the description of “RS” as “a statelet founded 10 (well, OK 12, or if you must, 16) years ago by racists and ethnic cleansers”, eh?

I’ll be buggered if I can think of a better summary of that entity in so few words

How would you describe the UK, then Ven?

Most determinably not in those terms.

For one thing you might notice we are a multinational state (and even that a fair proportion of our leaders, including the current PM, and indeed the last one, and quite a few others, are not from the majority ethnic group)

Who is the English Ratko Mladic?

Who is the English Ratko Mladic?

David Moyes, obviously.

keep your upity colonial ways out of the debate.

What Imperialist power am I supposed to be representing? You really must let us into your private fantasy world if you want us to keep up with these inventions.
Anyway you just exposed yourself Felix. The only arrogant racist throwback around here is you First Scotland and now Israel! You are a complete nutcase!

Is Jed also Felix, you drunk?

What has Jed’s perfectly reasonable post got to do with the rubbish fantasies that you are currently entertaining us with? Nobody as I think ruled out some new solution – merely the rewarding of racists and ethnic cleansers by the acceptance of the statelet that they formed.

Moyes English?

Or the Welsh Biljana Plavsic?

(you might notice that the current PM is also not from the majority religious sect, and that the last PM quit said sect recently too, I don’t think the most influential leader of the last half-century, ie Maggie, was Anglican either, was she? Attlee presumably not either)

(Oh I know that the OHR now demands that RS has Croat and Bosniak Vice-Presidents, but, erm, they don’t have much power, do they, and are essentially appointed for their ethnicity rather than for any other reason)

Ok, then we can all agree that the US is “a statelet founded by racist slave-holders and killers of indians”, the UK is “a statelet founded by pirates and colonialists with an ego too big for this world”, etc. etc.

What Venichka and Mickey are doing is forbidding the future of the RS on account of its past. And I copy what I said before:

Maybe the world would have been better is the UK had never been founded, on account of the piracies and colonization in which it engaged, but does that mean that the UK is a “loathsome illegitimate entity” on account of its past? What about Germany then?

I say, let the Serbs be on account of what they want and what they will do, not on account of what some of them did.

But Ven and Mickey are essentialists (racists) who ascribe an essence to the RS on account of its past.

And they are added to a long list of Englishmen who think that they are the ones to judge the right to exist of a people…

You prick, you don’t even know what “essentialist” or “racist” means, do you?

and “judging the right to exist of a people”

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

coming from the defender of a regime based upon genocide and religious/ethnic exclusivity (unlike the UK) that is utterly laughable

Or, rather, contemptible.

(I’m barely English, btw, as you would know had you read much else I’d posted here)

Lol – this nutter gets worse! His histrionics and lies are worthy of Karadzic himself (and I think he would certainly benefit for a little of the latters “masturbation therapy!)

You think the US and UK are “statelets” (let alone founded by such bad people whose deeds Historians have picked over endlessly? Mention Robert Clive and we will raise Morgoth’s hackles!) These things happened long ago and can’t be changed (unfortunately in my view) but your friends the ethnic cleansers and racists created RS only a few years back and all that is being demanded is that it be dissolved before any solution (and nobody here has ruled out anything as far as I can see) be considered.

The Germans endured 50 years divided, nobody has demanded any collective punishment of the eternally victimised (in some of their own minds anyway) Serbs. You, the worst kind of enemy they could have demand that the deeds of racists and Chetniks be celebrated wjile we say “wipe the slate clean! Start again!”

Oh and PS I think Ven is Irish and I have no idea of my own ethnicity.

Well, I am a bit Scottish and a bit English too. And it’s Ulster Irish, anyway. Still, maybe we could all get pissed and besiege Glasgow. It’d be a laugh.

Some of these anti-Muslim chauvinists really should go and spend some time living among the Muslim peoples of Bosnia and Kosova; they might actually learn something about European values of freedom and tolerance to replace their comic-book religious stereotypes…

Like that new stark and austere Wahabbi Mosque financed by Saudi Arabia and built on stolen Serb land in Sarajevo?

Mosques and theft are *european* and Saudi Wahabbism freedom and tolerance?

And Mother Teresa is a lusty pole-dancer.

And what would be the point of living amongst these happy, backward Balkan Muslims when these same Muslims are the descendants of cowards who facilitated several centuries of Balkan genocide, and who will, in just a few years time, once again facilitate jiahdist attacks, only this time directed at western europe?

Radical Islam was used to encircle and defeat soviet Russia. It can be used in a similar manner to make western Europe heel and obey.

And would it be anti-muslim/chauvinist, Marko,à constater that the once thriving Christian peoples of Anatolia, of Antioch, and of Smyrna no longer exist because of the Ottoman genocide?

And would it be too osé to point out that those same ‘Orthodox’ Christians were the ones who transmitted the ancient world’s intellectual treasures to us and who graced Europe with those “european” values you’re so god-damned fond of invoking?

And readers here should be made aware that much of Marko’s views on this whole subject are informed by two factors most insalubrious:

1) He’s an old trot and therefore sees the Chrstian Serbs as oppressors.

2) He’s half Croat ( if not more) and I’ve encountered many a virulent anti-orthodox Croat in the various parishes I’ve attended over the years.

So much so, in fact, that I’m pretty much convinced that much of the anti-Serb sentiments expressed by Croats are due to the fact the Serbia’s historicalbravery (with some exceptions) puts that of Croatia to shame.

The ones are wankers, the others warriors.

Marko’s spirited defense of Balkan Muslims is most fortuitous, providing, as it does, a flimsey moral fig leaf behind which he dsihopnestly dissimulates centuries of muderous naz…..er…. Ottoman collaboration.

With some brave Croat exceptions, of course.

I’ve parused a great deal of Marko’s writings and virtually EVERY reference he makes to Orthodoxy, whether it be ouvert or crypic, is riddled with anti-Orthodox chauvinism.

As such, everything he says about Serbs and such simply cannot be taken too seriously.

What should be taken seriously are points of view that see the Balkans situation in terms of centuries and not in terms of an ephemeral Clinton adventure.

Balkan postings are so much fun!

David Moyes, obviously.

David Moyes is Scottish. How dare you suggest that he is anything like Ratko Mladic!

“coming from the defender of a regime based upon genocide and religious/ethnic exclusivity (unlike the UK) that is utterly laughable”

You misrepresent my argument completely. It is no strange. You simple don’t understand.

“These things happened long ago and can’t be changed ”

BULLSHIT!!!

“(unfortunately in my view) but your friends the ethnic cleansers and racists created RS only a few years back”

They are not my friends, and you are an idiot by trying to do guilt by association. Still I don’t understand the difference between 10 years and 100 years in the field of the morality of states. Is the extra zero the one that prevents the dissolution of the UK? I should have known! I am lousy on mathematics.

“and all that is being demanded is that it be dissolved before any solution (and nobody here has ruled out anything as far as I can see) be considered.”

Well, they don’t want to be “dissolved”. Kill them all, right? Just as you misrepresent my argument by claiming that my request for the self-determination of the Serbs is actually a call for ethnic cleansing, I will misrepresent yours. Yes, Mickey wants to kill them all!

Drunk idiot.

Palubiski and Question are raving nutters.

Just thought I should add my constructive tuppence, there. I always believe in adding an insight where I can.

“The Germans endured 50 years divided”

And they were finally reunited, right?

But the Serbs of Serbia and the Serbs of Bosnia must remain forever divided because of High Cuntissioner Mickey. In fact, the Serbs of Bosnia must be dissolved… like the Joker in the acid.

The UK was founded on ethnic cleansing and genocide a 100 years ago?

Bugger me, our history books really misled us. Damned government propaganda.

(I would posit that the nearest the UK – as opposed to Ireland- has EVER experienced to the disaster that was wrought upon Eastern and Northern Bosnia in the 1990s was the Reformation – although in England that…evolved, rather than happening all in one wave of destruction and oppression. That was also a disaster, a tragedy, and culturally destructive – although less bad than, say, what happened in France in 1789. But still, there was never an ethnic exclusivist aspect to it. nothing to compare with the barbarity of what was wrought upon Sarajevo, Mostar – in that case mostly by the Croats, as it happens, or Srebrenica, or Zepa, and so on – just 12 to 16 years ago.)

Of course the perpetrators of these crimes, these zločini, should never have got their way, their statelet.

Still I don’t understand the difference between 10 years and 100 years in the field of the morality of states.

It is quite simple – the actual perpetrators of the atrocities in Bosnia are still alive whilst those who ran the British Empire are dead (now what were you saying about the idiocy of guilt by association?)

Well, they don’t want to be “dissolved”.

Well as Ven has said people want all sorts of things but this doesn’t mean they should have them – but tell us (and give us some figures if you can) for those citizens of the statelet who demand it be Republika Srpska as against those who don’t care. We will be awaiting such figures eagerly (oh what’s that? you can’t provide such figures because your claim that they don’t want to be dissolved is a fantasy purely of your own creation? Well you should have said that in the first place!)

I think your last paragraph has left the realms of a drug-addict with mental problems and found a whole new level of barminess of its own by the way.

David Moyes is Scottish. How dare you suggest that he is anything like Ratko Mladic!

Alright, Adolf Hitler then.

Palubiski and Question are raving nutters.

Yes we expect JP and Felix Quigley to lose their marbles on a Balkan thread by now.

Consider this:

But the Serbs of Serbia and the Serbs of Bosnia must remain forever divided..

Who has even suggested that?

“But still, there was never an ethnic exclusivist aspect to it”

No, just fanatic religious sects wreaking havoc.

“It is quite simple – the actual perpetrators of the atrocities in Bosnia are still alive whilst those who ran the British Empire are dead (now what were you saying about the idiocy of guilt by association?)”

Mickey, Mickey, bring them to trial and let the rest of the Serbs of Bosnia free to determine their own future.

“tell us (and give us some figures if you can) for those citizens of the statelet who demand it be Republika Srpska as against those who don’t care”

Difficult to know. As it is difficult to know who exactly is in the RS or the Federation. When was the last census in B-H taken? 1991? Why is not another official census taken now?

Alright, Adolf Hitler then.

He’s hardly the English Ratko Mladic. Jeeeeeesus!

bring them to trial and let the rest of the Serbs of Bosnia free to determine their own future.

That would be a possibility once a statelet created on ethnic cleansing had been dissolved for ever. But you don’t want it dissolved because you want a shrine to war and racism. So move on and stop being an enemy to the Serbian people.

And Mother Teresa is a lusty pole-dancer.

Was J.P She is unfortunately now dead, God rest her soul as she never made it down here with me in Hades.

You probably should have asked Christopher Hitchens to do a better job as she was acquitted.

And Morgoth stop having a go at Moyesy he’s just perpetuating a sterotype by being very coy about opening his purse all summer.

God what a racist I am!

“But you don’t want it dissolved because you want a shrine to war and racism”

Just like your state is a shrine to piracy, colonialism, imperialism and ugly queens?

Oh, I forgot that was in the past… now you are perfect!

Just like the RS could be is you let it have a future instead of only a past.

Drunk

And Morgoth stop having a go at Moyesy

Nothing wrong with Moyes. Other managers are just jealous that he’s OUR manager! Ha!

Just like your state is a shrine to piracy, colonialism, imperialism and ugly queens?

The less said about Elton John the better. Oh Christ! Did I just say that?

Just like your state is a shrine to piracy, colonialism, imperialism and ugly queens?

What state? I just told you that I don’t know my ethnicity – are you (like a nazi) going to impose one on me?

Other managers are just jealous that he’s OUR manager! Ha!

I probably should have said other teams, “other managers” doesn’t really make a lot of sense.

Mickey, what you don’t know is your father.

“The supporters of less well-favoured clubs like the redshite” is the correct term I think you are looking for.

I’m kicking myself for not taking up acting – I’d be a shoe-in for the role of Karadzic if my hair was a bit more unruly.

Wonder how to stop Morgoth saying something along the lines of “Karadzic in about a decade?”

Question quite – I never met my father or mother.

Yeah but I’ve met you. I’d say two years…

(although if you were to become RK, I suppose they might be my last words)

“The supporters of less well-favoured clubs like the redshite”

That’ll do me.

My credentials to comment on this issue are based on a conversation with a Croat refugee at a party in 1994 and Joe Sacco’s excellent graphic book ‘Safe Area Gorazde’ (where I found the description of a Bosniak toddler who had just been toilet trained coming to the hospital with her intestines hanging out, being in shock and asking for the potty the most disturbing poignant part). I have no position of political, economic or media power so my thoughts are ultimately of no consequence. Nevertheless this is a discussion group so I will comment anyway.

I am still not convinced that dissolving Bosnia’s Republika Srpska is a practical step, even as a stop gap to a redrawing of Swrbia and Bosnia’s borders (which i think only date from the Congress of Berlin in 1878). It seems that a unitary Bosnia with Serb, Croat and Bosniak intermingling is unattainable and denies the aspirations of Bosnian Serb citizens. These aspirations for self-determination are surely legitimate despite the indictments against Karadzic, Mladic and Milosevic? At present like Cyprus/North Cyprus there is a solution of sorts – both result from a large ethnic group wanting union with the mother land but outside military intervention denying this but ending up with de facto partition. I recognise it does not seem to be an ideal situation but no one has explained to my satisfaction how the alternatives would lead to Bosnia and Serbia being amicable and prosperous democratic European states.

Another parallel I would suggest is that of Latvia – the Soviet Union justified its re-annexation in 1945 on the basis of the collaboration by Nazi sympathisers with Nazi war crimes. The case against Bosnia’s Republika Srpska to my mind follows the same pattern. Again I welcome those comments that explain the flaws in my logic or the poverty of my analogies.

What is clear from this exchange is that Mickey can’t have an debate in good faith.
I say “your state”, he answers “my ethnicity” and – “you are like a nazi”.

Very good, Mickey, and you are a history teacher? What a waste.

Graham, I hate to split up any solidarity love-in here but don’t you think that Ben was a bit harsh to call me a cunt?

I think he misunderstood a point I made about Kim Jong-il and decided I was an amoral vagina. I think he also decided that he was beyond backing down not long after.

What Jed said. Careful Jed, you have already made your two comments, on the third Mickey will sneer at you, and on the fourth he will call you a nazi.

Another parallel I would suggest is that of Latvia – the Soviet Union justified its re-annexation in 1945 on the basis of the collaboration by Nazi sympathisers with Nazi war crimes.

I may be mixing up Latvia with Lithuania here but didn’t one of those two Baltic nations also assist in the massacre of a number of Jews?

Finland, on the other hand, most definitely got a raw deal and it ended up with them thinking much less of the West. That was a strategic if not moral blunder.

Graham, I hate to split up any solidarity love-in here but don’t you think that Ben was a bit harsh to call me a cunt?

Well Ben’s style is good and abrasive but I don’t think he actually called you that did he? I think what he said was:

If I felt I was up for it, I would add “you fucking filthy smart-alec loser cunt” to the above, but life’s a bit short and I feel frail, so I won’t.

I say “your state”,

What state? What is actually clear from this debate is that felix is a fantasist whose “method” is to make things up as he goes along…

Anyway interesting points Jed (and something to think about as I go and do something sooooo totally English that if admitted it would blow my credibility as a working-class hero forever – bbl.)

“What state?”

The state in which you are a citizen, Mickey? I assume it is England, but if it is Moronity, I wouldn’t be surprised.

even as a stop gap to a redrawing of Swrbia and Bosnia’s borders (which i think only date from the Congress of Berlin in 1878).

Not so. Bosnia and Herzegovina’s borders date back to the Ottoman period – even that funny little 12-km strip of coastline at Neum

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENGLISH CITIZENSHIP.

ONE IS A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN (which comprises 3 countries) AND NORTHERN IRELAND

“But you don’t want it dissolved because you want a shrine to war and racism”

Just like your state (the UK) is a shrine to piracy, colonialism, imperialism and ugly queens?

Oh, I forgot that was in the past… now you are perfect!

Just like the RS could be is you let it have a future instead of only a past.

Well Ben’s style is good and abrasive but I don’t think he actually called you that did he?

Well, yes Graham, he did.

A: I profoundly doubt that the people of North Korea love their Party and Leader. The fact that there is no dissent is because it is both a slave state and a police state. You clearly think otherwise. This makes you an amoral cunt.

D: I suspect you are an “anti-imperialist”. This makes you a cunt.

I gather he is right if his logic is sound because I am not an imperialist. Maybe being an imperialist is the only way to avoid the C-word from Ben. Perhaps he looks back on the age of Empire as a lost paradise but it makes it difficult for me to understand how he considers himself a “progressive democrat” but no matter. I think he is an earnest young chap with a lot of spirit and that’s no bad thing.

Anyway, send him my regards and please try to school him on the idea that just because we think something ought to be the case it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is.

YES!! I am waiting with salivation the cringing fixed grin comment on this matter by those sane folk down at Spiked-Online.

The LM libel lawsuit footage was just replayed on ITN news and I had to laugh loudly- I am sure it made the testicales of Frank, Mick (and Claire) tighten considerably.

It will be interesting to see if the genocide-denyers have anything to say or stay quiet hoping that it all goes away very swiftly so they can continue writing about the green-peril, authoritarian tyranny etc etc zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The Devil: Nothing wrong with Moyes. Other managers are just jealous that he’s OUR manager! Ha!

I always knew Satan was a blue cunt.

“Graham, I hate to split up any solidarity love-in here but don’t you think that Ben was a bit harsh to call me a cunt”

No one likes a tell-tale, Devil. You’re not meant to go crying to teacher.

It wasn’t so much that I felt I was beyond backing down, or indeed that I am incapable of being nice, more just that I find it difficult to suffer fools gladly. I fear I class someone who could come up with “The Dear Leader, as you and his supporters call him, is not likely to be shot by his own people because for some crazy reason he is liked there”, as one of those, or worse.

I always knew Satan was a blue cunt.

Yes, but I do regret selling off my minions to Old Trafford. Y’know, the red devils and Wayne Rooney. Actually, you can keep Wayne Rooney.

No one likes a tell-tale, Devil. You’re not meant to go crying to teacher.

Are you still in school? I hadn’t realized. If I had known then I would have just patted you on the head and said, “Ah, bless!”

I hadn’t realized.

But I should have, of course.

“Ben” is merely my nom de plume. My real name is E. J. Thribb.

“Ben” is merely my nom de plume. My real name is E. J. Thribb.

I thought it was “Ivor Buggupmyarse”.

I’m excited by what the sooooo totally English thing Graham is doing is. Give us a clue?

I thought you was Adrian Mole (or at least his Oxford-educated cousin).

I reckon he’s been dragged to watch “Mamma Mia” by his missus.

(Either that or he’s invading the Malvinas)

Drinking a 5 Euro beer and feeling he is “working class”?

The thing is, Devil, I’m quite prepared to be wound up by you saying stupid nasty shit about how much the North Korean hereditary monarchy is loved, but I’m not going to get wound up by you engaging in schoolboy insults. It’s almost endearing, in fact.

Not quite, but almost.

Yes, I might go for Adrian Mole; he has more of a backstory than E. J. Thribb, whom we only know because of the wondrous poetry he has contributed to humankind.

I think I need the backstory – it’s a way of making me seem more sympathetic as opposed to merely a foul-mouthed robotic Blairite, you see. (It’s not as bad as being a histrionic war criminal-loving Stopper, but I’m working on plumbing further depths. It’s my summer project, and I want to get an A for it.)

As I said…
http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/486/#more-486

With the help of Carl Savich we place it on record on 4international as the beginning shots in our campaign to defend Radovan Karadzic from the wolves of the NATO run Hague Kangaroo Court.

The thing is, Devil, I’m quite prepared to be wound up by you saying stupid nasty shit about how much the North Korean hereditary monarchy is loved,

I find you endearing too, sir. Now, the reason why I say what I said was not out of some crazy support of the North Korean system but because I discovered, to my horror, that it happens to be true. You don’t have to like it and I’d rather you didn’t shoot the messenger but Francis Fukuyama happened to be wrong. There are, indeed, many people who will live under the most wretched conditions believing that it is good for them and never think about overthrowing the miserable people who enslave them. Under the Tsars in Russia, the peasantry really did look up to the Little Father and believe that he was doing what was good for them. Kim Il-Sung realized that in order to keep his people subservient he wouldn’t implement the kinds of reforms which led to the Hungarian uprising or the fall of the Iron curtain. He knew that keeping people as isolated and as impoverished as possible was the way for their regime to survive.

The horrible truth, that you think is only believed by amoral cunts, is that it worked. A country that should have been economically shattered by its loss of the only allies it ever had is still up and running. Why is this? If the people of that country really wanted to overthrow the hateful tyrranny of Kim Jong-il then why haven’t they done this?

Why? Because they don’t know anything else and have been living under a system which has always told them that the causes of their misery are external.

Why do you think that pointing out this simple point makes me some kind of amoral cunt?

Felix Quigley is a lunatic. Karadzic is a war criminal.

And still:

“It seems that a unitary Bosnia with Serb, Croat and Bosniak intermingling is unattainable and denies the aspirations of Bosnian Serb citizens. These aspirations for self-determination are surely legitimate despite the indictments against Karadzic, Mladic and Milosevic?”

Surely Bosnian Serb citizens within an unitary Bosnian state would vote in large numbers for a Bosnian Serb nationalist party; would the Bosnian government in that case be right to block a ‘velvet divorce’?

They might not; until now, they (and the Croats and the Muslims) can vote for nationalist parties because they know that the High Representative will slap down anything extreme that any of the parties try on. The current system means lots of jobs for the boys with barely any responsibility. If the internationals packed up and left, the RS’s electorate, as well as the others in BiH, might have to face up to some serious choices.

I say, let the Serbs be on account of what they want and what they will do, not on account of what some of them did.

But you’ve just said they would vote for a nationalist party. Not just any nationalist party, but the SDS, the party of Karadžić and Plavšić. If the electorate of the RS chooses the SDS, you can’t complain when people hold them to account for that.

As Ven said, you can’t have your ćevapčići and eat them.

-Didn’t the rift first start when Bosnian Serbs were denied a peaceful means to secede – Bosniak leader Itzebegovic said ‘I would sacrifice peace for [Bosnian] sovereignty’?

No. They had planned and armed before independence. When the Bosnian parliament were discussing independence, Radovan said “Within a few days there will be no Sarajevo, and there will be over 500,000 dead; within a month the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina will be destroyed!”

One more thing for the partisans of the RS: what would you have happen in Brčko?

And would it be anti-muslim/chauvinist, Marko,à constater that the once thriving Christian peoples of Anatolia, of Antioch, and of Smyrna no longer exist because of the Ottoman genocide?

It wouldn’t be anti-muslim or chauvinist, just wrong.
1) Anatolia was largely Muslim when the Ottomans started out, thanks to the invasions of the Arabs and the rule of the Seljuks. More recently, it the nationalism of the Young Turks that brought ethnic tensions to Anatolia, followed by the failed invasion of the Greeks and expansionism of the Italians.
2) When Antioch was the capital of the Hatay Republic in 1938, 17% of the electorate were Christian. The proportion has diminished through immigration, and Christians tending to have smaller families than Muslims – an issue related to class and income, not religion.
3) Smyrna no longer has its Christian population because the Greeks invaded Anatolia, lost it, and signed a deal exchanging their population with the Turks of northern Greece.

*)%&$! No bloody preview! I’ll post that last bit again.

One more thing for the partisans of the RS: what would you have happen in Brčko?

And would it be anti-muslim/chauvinist, Marko,à constater that the once thriving Christian peoples of Anatolia, of Antioch, and of Smyrna no longer exist because of the Ottoman genocide?

It wouldn’t be anti-muslim or chauvinist, just wrong.
1) Anatolia was largely Muslim when the Ottomans started out, thanks to the invasions of the Arabs and the rule of the Seljuks. More recently, it the nationalism of the Young Turks that brought ethnic tensions to Anatolia, followed by the failed invasion of the Greeks and expansionism of the Italians.
2) When Antioch was the capital of the Hatay Republic in 1938, 17% of the electorate were Christian. The proportion has diminished through immigration, and Christians tending to have smaller families than Muslims – an issue related to class and income, not religion.
3) Smyrna no longer has its Christian population because the Greeks invaded Anatolia, lost it, and signed a deal exchanging their population with the Turks of northern Greece.

“But you’ve just said they would vote for a nationalist party. Not just any nationalist party, but the SDS, the party of Karadžić and Plavšić. If the electorate of the RS chooses the SDS, you can’t complain when people hold them to account for that. ”

Indeed, they may choose a nationalist party. And they will want their own country. And that is not a crime.

Indeed, they may choose a nationalist party.

You didn’t say “may you said “would”.

You show again that you are dishonest and argue in bad faith.

I missed all the fun!

[quote]“you fucking filthy smart-alec loser cunt”[/quote]

Oi!

You didn’t say “may you said “would”.

You show again that you are dishonest and argue in bad faith.

Ok, they would choose a nationalist party.

Now, fuck off.

And this is the person who complauns about me “flaming”?

What a stupid prick!

Indeed, they may choose a nationalist party. And they will want their own country. And that is not a crime.

Why don’t you deal with the question about the SDS you complete waste of space?

What is the question again, Mickey?

“And this is the person who complauns about me “flaming”?

What a stupid prick!”

If the first message someone directs at me contains the accusation that I am dishonest and arguing in bad faith, I have the right to tell him to fuck off. Don’t you agree, Mickey?

Actually, all I have said in this thread, Jed has said it better. Why don’t you tell him he is a prick, drunk?

Jed has said that he does not think Bosnians cannot get along and that the world should consider the statelet You have said that the world has to recognise a statelet formed on ethnic cleansing and run by the party that actually did the ethnic cleansing. In Germany in 1945 you would have been saying that the Germans needed a state and the nazis should run it! Your drug-fuelled rants are getting more and more silly you maggot!

Actually, all I have said in this thread, Jed has said it better. Why don’t you tell him he is a prick, drunk?

Here is the same victim mentality which scars the Balkans:

“Somebody said something similar (but much better) than me without coming across as right-wing racist scum – how is that they are not punished like poor ikkle me?”

Stupid cunt

Now answer the question: dissembling maggot!

Jed has said that he does not think Bosnians cannot get along and that the world should consider the statelet

“You have said that the world has to recognise a statelet…”
That was what Jed said also. That it wouldn’t be wise to dissolve it.

“formed on ethnic cleansing and run by the party that actually did the ethnic cleansing.”
I never said that. I said that all the perpetrators of human rights abuses and genocide should be put to trial, and then let the rest of the serbs their right to self-determine as they wish.

If you weren’t so drunk every day, you would have understood that.

Are you this aggressive in real life too?

I never said that. I said that all the perpetrators of human rights abuses and genocide should be put to trial, and then let the rest of the serbs their right to self-determine as they wish.

You want the state formed on ethnic cleansing to remain and for it to be run by the party which carried out the ethnic cleansing. If you were not out of your head on bad drugs everyday you would see what everyone else can see written clearly in your stupid comments.

Now answer the question maggot!

“In Germany in 1945 you would have been saying that the Germans needed a state and the nazis should run it! Your drug-fuelled rants are getting more and more silly you maggot!”

Of course not. But you would have been saying still in 1989 that Germans cannot be trusted to be democratic and that they should be divided forever.

Which is, in fact, my main contention: that you and Venichka judge the serbians by their past, but judge the Germans by their present.

“You have said that the world has to recognise a statelet…”
That was what Jed said also.

No it wasn’t you deluded maggot. hat jed said was: I am still not convinced that dissolving Bosnia’s Republika Srpska is a practical step What you said was that the RS must remain and the party of Kardzic should run it!”

Maggot!

But you would have been saying still in 1989 that Germans cannot be trusted to be democratic and that they should be divided forever.

No maggot. Nobody on this thread has rulled anything out beyond first the dissoloution of a state founded on ethnic cleansing.

“You want the state formed on ethnic cleansing to remain and for it to be run by the party which carried out the ethnic cleansing. If you were not out of your head on bad drugs everyday you would see what everyone else can see written clearly in your stupid comments.”

What is a party? an acronym. What is a country, a symbol or a real entity, wished into existance by its own people? Is Germany synonimous to Nazism? According to you it is, since the RS is sinonymous to genocide.

“What you said was that the RS must remain and the party of Kardzic should run it!”

Bullshit, drunk. In this same thread I have called Karadzic a criminal.
Why do you want to twist my words, drunk?

Which is, in fact, my main contention: that you and Venichka judge the serbians by their past, but judge the Germans by their present.

yes like we judge Zimbabwe by its past and South Africa by its present.

You idiot!

“yes like we judge Zimbabwe by its past and South Africa by its present.”

Nonsense. And tipical nonsense of a retarded drunk. The analogy would sustain itself if you were to advocate the dissolution of Zimbabwe. But you aren’t, no matter how sick Mugabe and his thugs are.
In contrast, you advocate the dissolution of the RS, no matter how much the majority of the Serbs, who -lets remind you- weren’t involved in war crimes, want it.

See, if you weren’t so drunk you would catch this point.

Is Germany synonimous to Nazism?

No. But the third reich of the nazis was – this is why the world did not countenance its existence beyond 1945.

You are arguing with the voices in your own head you idiotic maggot!

And touché, Mickey.

In contrast, you advocate the dissolution of the RS, no matter how much the majority of the Serbs, who -lets remind you- weren’t involved in war crimes, want it.

You have not proved to us that the majority of Serbs want this entity and when asked to do so you blabbered. The idea that they want this entity (rather than say a UN supported solution) is merely a creation of your own drug-frazzled mind for which you cannot provide any evidence.

You mentally handicapped fat maggot!

touche my arse – touchy about the naivety of your simplistic and silly arguments more like!

“No. But the third reich of the nazis was – this is why the world did not countenance its existence beyond 1945.”

And did what? dissolved Germany? No. Occupied and divided it yes, for a while. Democratized it and let the Germans almost immediately have their own state again. Because the world, my dear drunk, could distinguish, as you are unable to do, between the nazi ideology and the desire for self-determination of the Germans.

Do you also not know your children?

Bullshit, drunk. In this same thread I have called Karadzic a criminal.

So if you had called Hitler a criminal than it would have been fine for the nazi party to get on with running Germany post 1945?

You moron!

“You have not proved to us that the majority of Serbs want this entity and when asked to do so you blabbered. The idea that they want this entity (rather than say a UN supported solution) is merely a creation of your own drug-frazzled mind for which you cannot provide any evidence.”

Interesting, so the Venice Commission goes to the RS and writes that there is really across the board political consensus that the RS should not be dissolved. And these same politicians are the ones voted by the RS people.
What is that you don’t understand, drunk?

And did what? dissolved Germany?

Earth calling the drug-addicted maggot!

The third reich was dissolved and Germany carried on – Just as the Serbs who live in Bosnia will carry on after the dissolution of the state founded on racism and ethnic cleansing..

Interesting, so the Venice Commission goes to the RS and writes that there is really across the board political consensus that the RS should not be dissolved.

OK show us where they write this (as only a fool would trust your paraphrasing after all the lies you have come out on this thread!)

Evidence maggot – now!

“So if you had called Hitler a criminal than it would have been fine for the nazi party to get on with running Germany post 1945?”

Slippery, Mickey. So now you slip from demanding the dissolution of the RS = Germany, to demand the dissolution of the SDS = nazis.

I can’t debate with you because you keep changing the terms of your own argument. You are very dishonest, drunk. Just like I said “your state”, and you replied “my ethnicity”.

HP should fire you, first for being dishonest, and second for being aggressive towards the posters.

so the Venice Commission goes to the RS and writes that there is really across the board political consensus that the RS should not be dissolved.

Is that a bit like the across the board political consensus in Zimbabwe that Robert Mugabe should be president?

“15. Within the RS the picture was quite different. Some political forces there (SDS, PDP)
considered the present constitutional provisions at the State level perfectly adequate, while others
(SNSD) were open to strengthening State powers to enable the country to efficiently participate
in European integration. However, there was absolute unanimity that there could be no question
of the RS being abolished. Abandoning the RS would be regarded by all Serbs as equivalent to
defeat in the war and mean that all sacrifices had been in vain. By contrast, according to Serb
interlocutors, within the RS the vital interest veto was being abused and should be reformed.”

Venice Commission Report
CDL-AD (2005) 004
EUROPEAN COMMISSION FOR DEMOCRACY THROUGH LAW
(VENICE COMMISSION)
OPINION
ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL SITUATION
IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA
AND THE POWERS
OF THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVE

Touche again, Mickey.

Except that I have never claimed the RS ito be Germany – you did . All I have claimed it is is but an entity created 12 years ago by war criminals (ie it wasn’t a state and had no existence prior to the arrival of its own “Hitlers.”)

HP should fire me for many things but destroying the simplistic and dishonest arguments of fascists like yourself is not one of them maggot!

Abandoning the RS would be regarded by all Serbs as equivalent to
defeat in the war and mean that all sacrifices had been in vain.

Maggot – they WERE defeated in the war and need to realise that they were defeated before any progress is made in the region. As Ven has pointed out what people want is not always what they should get!

Come on, Mickey, you have lost here, admit it.

You have being constantly dishonest, aggressive and wrong.
And now it seems that even ignorant! How can you ignore the content of the main report of the Venice Commission, that lead to the April package of reforms?

Is that your tail, Mickey?

So once again if a commision in 45 said that most Germans thought the third reich should stay then you would have applauded this and argued it was right?

hahahha you are tying yourself in knots here

Lost? I am still trying to decide what argument you want to make!

Interesting. Why do you demand from me to prove what the Serbs want if your reply to this is “I don’t care?”

I demanded some proof that your argument was grounded anywhere near reality – you have come up with a report which suggests that the majority of Serbs in the RS are not even prepared to accept the reality that they lost the war….

I hope you realise how stupid this makes you look!

“Maggot – they WERE defeated in the war and need to realise that they were defeated before any progress is made in the region.”

The Egyptians were defeated in the 1973 war, but somehow they still think they won, and progress was made.