Harry’s Place

all Baroness Tonge has to do now is go for in-your-face holocaust denial then she will have completed her transformation from Liberal to Jew hating head banger,

what a poor sick woman, she’s pitiful.

How many Palestinian Arabs have died since 1948 as a result of the conflict, hell how many have died since the 1880’s including those that passed on from natural causes? Hey lets throw in all those Arab soldiers that died as a result of the failed Arab wars of aggression against Israel. Is it six million? No. So what’s Masalha saying, that one Arab is worth ~500 Jews?

It goes without saying that Pollard is right on this.

Tonge’s possible next step is to argue that Zionists brought the holocaust on themselves by collaborating with Nazis; the idea being that enough world wide sympathy for dead Jews would lead to support for the creation of Israel.

I know others have argued this, so come on Tonge, don’t be shy.

Isn’t this “It’s Israel’s fault for anti-Semitism” line just a modern day version of the traditional “they bring it on themselves” idea that racists throughout history have used to justify their beliefs and actions?

I think Tonge is quite obnoxious and deluded enough as she is, without anyone needing to postulate possible more extreme future derivations of her views….I mean, if one wants to demonstrate that she is either a lunatic or a bigot, she provides more than enough evidence of that without anyone needing to make any more up.

[I mean, quite seriously, promoting holocaust denial or alleging Zionist-Nazi colloboration is something of a rather different order from anything that I am aware of Tonge saying, as it constitutes the fabrication of facts, rather than merely the holding of questionable opinions.]

I always thought the Lib Dems were a bit suspect

Masalha is a UK academic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur_Masalha

” to argue that Zionists brought the holocaust on themselves by collaborating with Nazis; the idea being that enough world wide sympathy for dead Jews would lead to support for the creation of Israel.”

Well, though they are mortal enemies, Gillad Atzmon has argued that Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves by being “unpopular”, while Tony Greenstein has argued that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis.

Er… Does anyone give a fucking toss what Baroness Tonge thinks. I don’t And there’s a Gabriel 2 Missile in it for any fucker who disagrees.

Or a JDAM. There is gonna be a reckoning and those viscious bastard Hamas and Hezbollah and gonne be pwned.

This will end with Israel finally lowering the boom. There is no alternative for civilization.

Somebody needs to set up http://www.LibDems4Hamas.com

I don’t often agree with Stephen Pollard but on this he is right.

Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists.

I do remember a question of Tonge’s in the Commons, asking the then PM Blair whether he was happy with the teaching of creationism alongside Darwin in schools. Remarkably, Blair said yes.

She basically has good liberal views on most subjects, which I generally support, and she left the Commons through tragic circumstances.

As for Palestine and Israel, blimey, it’s a bit of a hot potato.

Nur Masalha is lecturer at St Marys University College (SMUC), where I did teacher training.

I submitted to him a PhD proposal. Needless to say, he didn’t like it.

He was closely associated with Dr Michael Prior there, while he was still alive.

Breath-taking.

To suggest the what occurs in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust and to salute those who encourage suicide bombing as brave leaves too stunned to feel angry. It is simply the wilful emasculation of historical fact, truth and moral values to suit a political agenda.

Jenny Tonge is now an emblem for the irrational liberalism that more and more people in western democracies are rising against in disgust.

I wonder if Tonge, willing as she is to imagine herself a suicide bomber, can also countenance crushing a child’s head with a rifle butt. After all, the only difference is that she would have to live with herself afterwards. If she actually believes what she says, that should be no problem at all.

Her daughter’s sad & pointless death (in an exploding kettle incident) deeply shocked her as, unfortunately, it failed to hurt any Jews.

Normal comments from the British Left. Why the surprise? Today, CiF had articles from Steele, Soumaya and some pro-Hizbullah student. All three have dodgey views regarding the legitimacy of Jewish self-determination. With demographic shifts, expect the Hamas-Leftist alliance to increase in numbers and power.

FARC
IRA
THE REAL IRA
THE NKVD
THE KGB
RED ARMY FACTION
SARDINISTA NATIONAL LIBERATION FRONT
hundreads of South American terrorist groups.

We all know what these groups have common. Varying degrees of support from the European Left. There is nothing new about this, nothing.

I am ashamed that I used to support her.

“Sardinista” – priceless! Did they ever escape from that can?

Back OT. Is it fair to condemn the Baroness on the basis of some quote-mining from the not exactly agenda-less Mr Pollard, or has anyone seen the whole speech?

The problem here is: do you trust Pollard’s editorialising, and the usual cut and paste malarkey of blogging? Probably not.

Take this for example:

She then moved to the subject of antisemitism and stated that it exists in the world today because of Israel’s behaviour: “how can we stop antisemitism if they [Israel] keep treating the Palestinians like this?”

The trouble is the quote does not support the commentary. According to the quote, she does not say that antisemitism (hatred of Jews) in the world today exists because of Israel’s behaviour (causation). She says that its made more difficult to tackle (even impossible) because of some of the actions of Israel. Of course, one does not have to agree with that, but its really not the same as what Pollard makes it out to be in: that Tonge claimed antisemitism exists purely because of Israel’s behaviour. Tonge makes no claims regarding the direct causation of antisemitism, but rather claimed that Israel’s actions (i.e. the actions of a government) makes it difficult to tackle it.

These are subtle differences maybe, but important ones; its in the nature of blogging and commentary that folk’s words get distorted to fit preconceived notions.

She’s quite bonkers. So a dead cert for the next season of Question Time, along with other loony darlings of the Beeb, such as Galloway, Benn, Alibhai-Brown, Meacher, etc.. How long before St. Madelaine of the Sorrows joins her on cloud 9?

Look, if David T wants to trust the editorialising, selective quoting, etc of one Stephen Pollard (FFS), that’s his business. But its really quite absurd. You know, its quite reasonable to disagree with Tonge’s views without resorting to personal abuse and distortion, or claiming that she is antisemitic. I don’t think she is. So let’s see if folk here can criticise her in civilised way, hey? Now, that would be progress!

“Although I was not there, and no recording seems to have been made, I have been given a detailed set of notes taken by someone in the audience.”

Phew. That’s removed all my doubts about a political agenda, decontextualised quotations, and the questionable use of ellipses.

Venichka, I take your point that Tonge ‘is quite obnoxious and deluded enough as she is’. That is self-evident to all decent people. But I was making another point about the trajectory of people’s views. That what we have here is a clear example of a person whose public views on this subject are getting more extreme.

“I am beginning to understand the power of the Israel lobby, active here as well as in the USA, with AIPAC, the Friends of Israel and the Board of Deputies.”

“They take vindictive actions against people who oppose and criticise the lobby, getting them removed from positions that they hold and preventing them from speaking — even on unrelated subjects, in my case.

“I understand their methods. I have many examples. They make constant accusations of antisemitism, when no such sentiment exists, to silence Israel’s critics.”

“One of the things I’ve discovered over the years is that whenever anyone criticises Israel in a positive way they get accused of antisemitism,” she said.

“But it is not antisemitism, it is anti-Israeli-governmentism. Politicians who criticise Israel are sidelined due to pressure on party leaders to remove them.”

Baroness Tonge added that the reason she was so outspoken on this matter was in order to stop antisemitism from increasing.

“Jewish people in this country and all over Europe are being targeted because there are people out there who do not distinguish them from the Israeli government. I don’t want that to happen. It’s a tragedy,” she said.

“We do not want antisemitism to come back. It’s the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the human race. But it will return if Israel continues doing what it’s doing.”

“I have so many friends and colleagues who are Jewish and I don’t want to see them suffering in this way.”
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2023

I don’t see what relevance her daughter’s horrible death has. More likely, a minor politico in a permanent opposition party made an idiotic remark and, as is common with politicos of any level, blamed everyone but herself. Even if she did call Claire Short an arse for the golden cows remark.

Oh, and Walter Boswell is now undoubtedly a Troofer.

“dececent people” indeed!

“Oh, and Walter Boswell is now undoubtedly a Troofer.”

How did you come to that conclusion?

Marvin said:”Somebody needs to set up http://www.LibDems4Hamas.com”

Chair Baroness Tonge perhaps? :-(

Alex Ross said:”Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists.”

Well the ostensibly secular ’socialists’ of the SWP seemed to have a go. Tonge is backing those groups that are neither Liberal nor Democratic in any way shape or form.

The title of this post should more accurately be “What An Unnamed Third Party Told Stephen Pollard That Baroness Tonge Said”.

I always love the ’some of my best friends are Jewish’ defence to anti-Semitism. Anyone who uses that line might as well be wearing a Swastika armband.

Ahhh, Benji, Larry and friends.

All else fails shoot the messenger, eh.

I suspect you will find that Ms Tonge won’t be denying her comments; or doing so with much conviction. More likely she’ll waffle about being smeared by the lobby.

Moreover, Pollard explicitly states at the beginning of his entry that he has sought recordings of the speech but was unable to get one. Not much of a conspiracy there really; if anything he is telling the readers that it is theoretically possible that the notes are all out of context or an elaborate hoax. Fair enough to any rationale person.

Knowing Ms Tonge as I do (and unlike the pair of you I have actually met the woman several times) she will be quite proud of what she is quoted as saying. She is on the record (with sources im sure you’ll approve of more than you evidently do Mr Pollard) as having said the same things on numerous occassions.

Despicable as what she says is; its neither new nor surprising.

Waffle all you like about Pollard, misquotes, third parties.

Your point seems to be…..if you dont have 100% evidence of something being said, but only have word of mouth evidence, then don’t write about it.

Fascinating..

It may account for the lack of content on your blog Benj - you obviously have high editorial standards and will only publish something when you are very, very very sure of your facts.

Is that why The Guardian got rid of you? Or was it because you were spending on your time here having your ass kicked?

J

Back on topic, and to waste no time on the likes of the usual suspects; her comments are horrible. But, they are totally unsurprising.

Chat to your average Grauniad journalist and that’s what they think. The jews have it coming.

60 years of having to say sorry for the holocaust - many people are just sick of it obviously. Thats how it sounds. Take a look at the Beeb website any day. The UK has soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. They and their allies are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. On a daily basis they are killing civilians, whether by accident or otherwise…….But the Beeb website will be busy reporting a case of an Israeli army officer shooting a Plaestinian prisoner in the toe….with a rubber bullet. Or reporting on how Arab bulldozer drivers are worried about facing prejudice now (honestly, Im reallynot making that up). And from Afghanistan or Iraq….the odd grainy image of that bald bloke Leithhead talking about not a lot really.

Its sick, but its where we are at.

When I was young I used to wonder at how something like the holocaust could have happened. Nowadays…it all seems to be quite easy really.

Ahhh JimmyTheNail… I don’t have any loyalty to the Tonge, and if her comments are accurately reported then I’m happy to join in the general condemnation. OK?

But one thing I am entirely certain of, is that Stephen Pollard is a dreadful, useless hack. If he told me it was raining, I’d check outside. And if he told me that an unnamed source had privately assured him that it was raining, then I’d put on my bikini and shades and head straight to the beach.

JimmyTheNail has nailed it.

His comment at 7:39pm should be repeated often.
This is how it always start for the Jews.

I am sure if Baroness Tonge feels that she has been libelled, or that her words were misrepresented, then she’ll take action, but that’s unlikely to happen as she’d have to openly state her real views under oath, and that wouldn’t be too pretty a sight.

Why is there any surprise? Beyond the Gorgeous one the Lib Dems were the real Stopper voice in the House of Commons - they are a bunch of SWP-ers without the time to devote to hard-leftery, instead making up for it with organic tofu and high-horsed sancitmony.

I think you mean She is right don’t you?

Apologies, Walter, I was being a moron.

Ben White:

‘ “Although I was not there, and no recording seems to have been made, I have been given a detailed set of notes taken by someone in the audience.”

Phew. That’s removed all my doubts about a political agenda, decontextualised quotations, and the questionable use of ellipses.’

Surely what you mean, Ben White, is, “I agree with her (that is, Baroness Tonge), just like I agreed with President Ahmadinejad of Iran”:

History, Myths and All the News That’s Fit to Print

Ben White (www.benwhite.org.uk)

The Palestine Chronicle, 10th January 2006

Ever since the election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran, relations between Iran and the West have grown increasingly strained. There is no one simple reason for this, and responsibility lies with the Americans, the British, the Israelis, and the Iranians themselves. There are big issues at play, and a lot at stake, from Iran’s nuclear programme to the miserable occupation of Iraq, from Israel’s desire for regional hegemony to Iranian domestic politics.
Out of these complex factors, the theme that has often dominated in the media has been the various comments made by President Ahmadinejad regarding Israel. Spread over several months, there have been three particularly high-profile remarks made by the Iranian head of state that have drawn strong condemnation from statesmen and commentators alike, and contributed to the deterioration of EU-Iranian relations.
At the end of last October, Ahmadinejad was addressing an anti-Zionist conference, during which he reiterated his support for Ayatollah Khomeini’s position that Israel “must be wiped off the map”. Despite the fact that anti-Zionism has been a core element of Iranian policy since the 1979 revolution, these reported remarks touched off a media frenzy and diplomatic firestorm.
Even though these views were nothing ‘new’, there were other incongruities about the incident. Ahmadinejad had not necessarily, as many assumed, called for an apocalyptic battle to wipe out the Jews. Moreover, Israel’s presence on the map has a corollary in Palestine’s cartographic absence, and an anti-Zionist position might well be expressed by the desire to see the Israeli ethnocratic, apartheid infrastructures dismantled – and in that sense remove Israel from the map.
But in what becomes a consistent theme, whatever the actual meaning of Ahmadinejad’s comments – and there is at least more ambiguity than most allowed – a head of state was being threatened with diplomatic sanction at the highest level, not for his nation’s behaviour, but for his beliefs. Meanwhile, Israel, highly successful until now in keeping Palestine very much off the map, points the finger and says, ‘We told you so’.
The second, highly publicised, remarks came in mid-December, when Ahmadinejad was reported as denying the Holocaust. The President’s remarks, as detailed on the official Iranian news agency website, did not actually denote a disbelief in the genocide perpetrated against the Jews during World War II. Rather, they sought to highlight the hypocrisy of European guilt over the Holocaust contrasted with their support for the colonisation of Palestine:

“If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.”

This is not a particularly controversial argument – the Jews were persecuted in Europe, but the guilt of the Western powers was salved at the expense of the Palestinians. The news agency goes on though to report that the President described how “some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets because when a person expresses disbelief in God, religion and prophets they do not object to him but they will protest to anyone who would reject the Holocaust”. Again, Ahmadinejad is drawing attention to the extent to which European nations prosecute Holocaust deniers, yet are by and large post-Christian societies with little regard for religion. For a devout believer like the Iranian President, this must seem like a strange situation.
Note also that the President said that “some have created a myth on holocaust”. While most people immediately equate a ‘myth’ with a fabricated fairy-tale, this is not necessarily the case. A quick consultation of dictionary definitions confirms that “many historians consider that myths can also be accounts of actual events that have become highly imbued with symbolic meaning” [my italics], this from Wikipedia. The entry continues, “This process occurs in part because the events described become detached from their original context and new context is substituted, often through analogy with current or recent events”.
Even more relevantly, given the use of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism as a propaganda tool of Zionist apologists, historian Richard Slotkin has described the process whereby historical events become ‘myth’ thus:

stories drawn from a society’s history that have acquired through persistent usage the power of symbolizing that society’s ideology and of dramatizing its moral consciousness–with all the complexities and contradictions that consciousness may contain.

This is extremely pertinent to the use of the Holocaust, not only in terms of the Western consciousness and relations with Israel, but also in relation to Israel’s national identity. The Holocaust comes to symbolize the intrinsic anti-Jewish racism of ‘Gentile’ societies, and therefore proving the need for a Jewish state. More disturbingly perhaps, the Holocaust acts as a standard for human depravity set so high, that any treatment of the Palestinians is justifiable, as long as it falls short of what was experienced by the Jews in Nazi Europe.
The third of Ahmadinejad’s reported comments made early in the New Year, created far fewer headlines, which when the content is examined, proves instructive. Associated Press carried the comments, but the BBC, keen to cover the previous remarks in detail, deemed the story not newsworthy. On the official Iranian news agency, Ahmadinejad again asked why Europe didn’t pay the cost of a Jewish state itself, but then went further. Affirming that “Iran makes a distinction between Judaism and Zionism”, Ahmadinejad suggested that the original European support for Zionism was itself anti-Semitic in motivation, by ensuring that the Jews were “expelled” from Europe.
This phenomenon, of anti-Semitic support for Zionism, was acknowledged and taken advantage of by early Zionist proponents. There was overlap in the rhetoric of Zionism’s advocates and that of the anti-Semites, since both gained from the idea that the Jew would never ‘belong’ in a ‘Gentile’ society. Theodor Herzl recognized that the anti-Semites would be their “best friends” in galvanizing support for a Zionist state. Ahmadinejad was simply drawing attention to how anti-Semites in Britain and the US supported the Zionist project since it would mean less Jews in their own societies.
It could be argued, therefore, that the comments made by Ahmadinejad in recent months are not anti-Semitic, and instead, throw rhetorical barbs at a subject that is taboo in Western nations, namely, the complex relationship between the Holocaust, anti-Semitism in Europe, Zionism’s beginnings, and continued support for Israel. The reaction to the Iranian President’s thoughts on Israel is even stranger considering the genuine grounds for criticism that exist. The Iranian regime has closed numerous newspapers, and severe restrictions remain on freedom of expression. Internet use is monitored and limited, and homosexuals are executed. Most in the West would want to oppose the very ‘theocratic’ nature of the government itself.
Despite all that, what casts doubt over negotiations with Iran over its nuclear policy, is not its human rights abuses, but the President’s views on Zionism. A country was threatened with censorship and sanction, not because of its actions but on account of the political opinions of its leader (even assuming they were not misinterpreted). In exactly the same week as the furore over Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust remarks, a UK inquest delivered its unanimous verdict that British UN worker Iain Hook had been killed by the Israeli army in Jenin in a “deliberate” act. Another crime in a long list, yet that week, it was Iran being condemned by the international community – on account of a speech.
This very week, there was a small story in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz about a conference taking place in Acre about “finding ways to achieve a permanent Jewish majority” in the city. One of the organisers for the conference is described as believing that “Acre has the right to exist as a mixed city only if it has a permanent Jewish majority”. For Arabs to be labelled a ‘demographic threat’ is par for the course in the Israeli political establishment. But don’t expect Israel’s open support for, and implementation of, occupation, colonisation, and racial discrimination, to come under the same scrutiny as Ahmadinejad’s remarks on European history. Because that would be anti-Semitic, right?

Larry, darling, I’d just love to see you in a bikini!

Nothing too brazen though, I hope, for Larry. Something classic, something chic. Always leave something to the imagination, don’t just put it all out there.

Zkh, you’re wasting your time with all that babble nonsense.
Problems with Iran and the West stem from the following: a completely bonkers, paranoid and violent theocracy running a huge and extremely rich country, oppressing women, persecuting and executing homosexuals, pursuing an aggressive foreign policy which includes blowing up civilian Jewish centres, and supporting other violent, so-called “revolutionary” but actually anti-democratic movements all over the world.
Anti-semitism has existed all over the world and led to large-scale Jews migration (or simpy fleeing) from most places they’ve settled every few generations for 2000 years. Arab and Islamic anti-semitism has always been there too. Jews were generally treated better in the Islamic world where the rulers were not considered very religious or pious by their co-religionists (e.g. the Omayyads). The Muslims were the first to make the Jews wear yellow badges and different clothing to distinguish them from Muslims.
The Holocaust ended just a few years before the Palestinian Nakbah. Why then can the Palestinians can go on and on about their tragedy but not the Jews? Actually, during and after the Nakba the same number of Jews were brutally forced to leave their homes in Arab countries as Palestinians were made to leave theirs.
You can’t have your cake and eat it. The Holocaust is cited on and on by Jews because most of us lost large numbers of close relatives due to it and because it was the most extensive, industrialised mass-murder of all time.
When Iran has a democratically-elected government that acts responsibly i.e. doesn’t advocate genocide of the Jews while denying there ever was one (no - it’s not about Western hypocrisy -most of the invitees to the conference had strong Nazi or Neo-Nazi connections, with exception of the handful of token uncle Tom hassidic Jews) then maybe there will be proper engagement with it. But Iran today is a thoroughly repulsive regime, and even arse-licking apologists of dictatorships like you will never be able to convince reasonable people otherwise.
Get an education and more importantly, get a fucking life you arsehole!

Albert,

stop just there

Zkharya is not an apologist for the Iranian dictatorship, he was, I believe, pointing to Ben White’s agenda on this topic.

now why not re-read his comments and apologise to him :)

It is slightly disingenuous to blame Stephen Pollard for presenting second-hand evidence, given that Jenny Tonge is on record as saying all this – and more.

The story of Jenny Tonge is, I believe, yet another confirmation of the old truth that a minor offence, once compounded by pomposity, stupidity and lack of introspection leads to an extreme offence.

She originally made a stupid remark about why, had she been a Palestinian, she would have contemplated being a suicide bomber. Stupid, callous – call it what you may – but, had she immediately withdraw it, “clarified” it out of existence, apologised for the offence, it would have been forgotten in a week, that being long time in politics.

But Jenny Tonge is not one to apologise or withdraw remarks. She is too self-important, too pompous, too unable to comprehend the meaning of her remarks. No, she had to stand behind them, and this has led her on an inoxerable path toward increasingly more extreme and, indeed, racist pronouncements. On the way she lost her front-bench position, got condemned by leaders of her own party (who, no matter what you think about them, aren’t anti-Semites) – but for her, by this stage, this was not a reaction of others to what they have perceived as extremist and racist remarks. Oh, no, it was the dark hand of International Jewry.

When in cesspool, she keeps digging.

Why is there any surprise? Beyond the Gorgeous one the Lib Dems were the real Stopper voice in the House of Commons

True up to a point,if you’re just talking about Iraq, but lets not forget Ashdown determination to keep Bosnia on the agenda when most British politicians were covering themselves with nothing.
Foot and Thatcher are the other two that come out of the pre Srebrenica period with any credibility.

Tory backbenchers used to do organised yawning when Ashdown brought up Bosnia week after week at PMQs.
Hurd and Rifkind would sit there smirking.

The gorgeous one,defender of muslims, spoke for approximately two minutes in five years regarding Bosnia.
Mostly to repeat a mantra that if Bosnia had Oil, the west would’ve invaded like it invaded Kuwait.
Maybe true, but if you opposed the invasion of Kuwait,a bit of a non sequitor.

Actually, what I ‘meant’, Modernity, was that, I suspect, ‘contextualising’ the comments of Jenny Tonge was very much what Ben meant by ‘contextualising’ the remarks of Ahmadinejad.

But I’m sure he’ll be back to clarify. More fool me for starting this up, though. I’m busy enough as it is.

Why ever was Poison Tongue Tonge given a peerage? Surely not simply because of her daughter’s unfortunate death and her wish to retire from the Commons. The Lib Dems and nation are now stuck with her disreputable utterings ad infinitum in the House of Lords. Lucky there was nobody else to record them at IslamExpo except Stephen Pollard’s friend.

All else fails shoot the messenger, eh.

How ironic… Because you go on to make a personal attack on me based on no evidence and purely on speculation. Never mind!

I just don’t trust Pollard’s editorial. This is an age old game - and it works particularly well on blogs. A sentence here and there is pulled out of context, misinterpreted, reinterpreted, spun and further editorialised, until a picture of the subject of the attack is made to fit very neatly into the preconceived notions of those doing the attacking.

I think its perfectly possible to criticise Tonge comments etc. However, this quick “fisking” technique, where folk’s comments are chopped up and editorial is added in between - I generally don’t trust.

Someone publish a full copy of all her comments, I think that’s fair. We can make up our own minds. However, in the absence of that, having Pollard make up my mind for me is not an alternative option.

I am fucking angry at this pathetic shower of shit who keeps repeating the lie that Israel was created due to The Holocaust - which then leaves the pathetic Palestinian Terrorists and supporters bleating “Why are we punished for Nazi Germany?”

Israel was ‘created’ by the act of The Mandate For Palestine 1922 which created a Jewish National Home with the idea that it may flourish into a state.

By 1947 The British has enough! They were stopping Jews fleeing the Holocaust and had constant fighting between the Arabs and Jews.

Eventually they offered The Partition Plan (Res 181). The Arabs rejected. Israel was born out of defeating the attacking Arabs and when having control over certain areas they declared Independence.

Israel was created out of the British leaving and the Arabs attacking. NOT BECAUSE OF THE HOLOCAUST!!!!

Will someone please challenge these Islamist over the facts.

The Lib Dems and nation are now stuck with her disreputable utterings ad infinitum in the House of Lords.

Yes, and a good example of the preconceived notions I talk about is the idea that folk must be the cardboard cutout, one dimensional characters of your imaginings. Even if one disagrees with Tonge’s views on Israel and Palestine, I think its inaccurate to portray her as a person who only makes those type of remarks and does nothing else. She has fully taken part in a wide variety of debates and issues at Parliament for many years.

Does anyone feel that a holocaust (lower case) against Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah wouldn’t be a popular outcome?

Well, as lower-case it just means disaster, as we found out when the word ’shoah’ was used by an Israeli politicician to tell Hamas it risked a disaster.

If we visit a disater against them then who will cry?

Just as “Fisking” has entered the lexicon can we propogate “A Good Tonging” - sounds rude! And if Ridley and Tonge argue will Ridley receive a Good Tonging? Eughhh!

Well if that one takes off Maven, you can claim to be the originator!

Maven, don’t get angry. What’s the point?

Some people choose not to see history, or they assume their ignorance of it entitles them to ignore it.

It’s not enough that most European or Asian Jews were murdered or effectively driven out in the 19th and 20th centuries to America or Palestine/Israel. Some people choose to ignore that most Jews have been regarded as ‘Palestinians’ dispossessed for most of Christian or Islamic history. Ahmadinejad included.

For some people, Jewish history, and especially Jewish tragic history, begins with the Holocaust. Ben White accuses ‘Zionists’ of believing that. But he is merely projecting his own views.

Palestinian Christians and Muslims are not paying the price for the holocaust. They are paying the price for Palestine, its original creation on Jewish dispossession, to alienate Jews from the land of Israel forever, and the enshrining of that fact, in Christian and Islamic tradition, resulting, even in the 19th and 20th centuries, in European and Arab Jews as being more nationally Jewish, more ‘Palestinian’, than European or Arab.

Partition was compromise, justice for both parties.

I should say (I’m half asleep and on painkillers)

‘resulting, even in the 19th and 20th centuries, in European and Arab Jews as being REGARDED AS more nationally Jewish, more ‘Palestinian’, than European or Arab’.

Benji

you shouldn’t get so excited, it’s all a storm in a teacup

Baroness Tonge, after seeing her latest pics, I would, mmmmmmm

we allowed the creation of Israel due to the holocaust

This wasn’t brightest thing to say - although all we have to go on is an out of context quote and not the full transcipt.

Zkharya:
Take care of yourself. You are always on painkillers.
I am seriously concerned, maybe you should get treated.
Best,
Fabian

Benjamin, you miss my point about Poison Tongue Tonge’s utterances, which is: if you support or sympathise with suicide bombers, anything you say in public can never be reputable and will thus be construed by the UK public. The worst living example is, of course, Cherie Blair, who has recently done a TV programme on knife crime, which I purposely did not watch.

Suicide bombings are a method of war, like anything else. True, they rely on deception and are usually directed at civilian targets, but not always.

What is curious is Tonge’s strongly implying the suicide bomber’s is more legitimate because the bomber gives their life. One can almost here the echo of ‘The Jews are the most cowardly of creatures, and love life. We the Muslims, on the other hand, love death’.

we allowed the creation of Israel due to the holocaust

Benji -

This wasn’t brightest thing to say - although all we have to go on is an out of context quote and not the full transcipt.

What ‘context’ could alter the meaning of that sentence? Care to suggest one?

‘Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists’.

Unless she joins the Russian party of the same name.

the so calle “Baroness Tong” has a record of siding with Islamic terrorists. If the Lib Dems had a principals she would be thrown out of the Party.

On a lighter note, one must observe that the woman is so ugly, that a burqua and face mask would be a most desirable if and when she finally converts to the “religion of peace”

Zkharya, yes, my sincere apologies to you. Silly ass I can be, quite often…

Thanks for pointing out my mistake, Modernity.

“Suicide bombings are a method of war, like anything else.” You are definitely right about “like anything else,” Zkharya. It reminds me of the true story of the Hamptead Heath bagpiper who was taken to court by Camden Council a few years ago for breach of a bye law which prohibited the playing of any musical instrument on the Heath. His defence was that the bagpipes are not an instrument of music, they are an instrument of War.

Some people choose to ignore that most Jews have been regarded as ‘Palestinians’ dispossessed for most of Christian or Islamic history

Just read this http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm

The Jerusalem Post, founded in 1932, was called The Palestine Post until 1948.