Harry’s Place

all Baroness Tonge has to do now is go for in-your-face holocaust denial then she will have completed her transformation from Liberal to Jew hating head banger,

what a poor sick woman, she’s pitiful.

How many Palestinian Arabs have died since 1948 as a result of the conflict, hell how many have died since the 1880’s including those that passed on from natural causes? Hey lets throw in all those Arab soldiers that died as a result of the failed Arab wars of aggression against Israel. Is it six million? No. So what’s Masalha saying, that one Arab is worth ~500 Jews?

It goes without saying that Pollard is right on this.

Tonge’s possible next step is to argue that Zionists brought the holocaust on themselves by collaborating with Nazis; the idea being that enough world wide sympathy for dead Jews would lead to support for the creation of Israel.

I know others have argued this, so come on Tonge, don’t be shy.

Isn’t this “It’s Israel’s fault for anti-Semitism” line just a modern day version of the traditional “they bring it on themselves” idea that racists throughout history have used to justify their beliefs and actions?

I think Tonge is quite obnoxious and deluded enough as she is, without anyone needing to postulate possible more extreme future derivations of her views….I mean, if one wants to demonstrate that she is either a lunatic or a bigot, she provides more than enough evidence of that without anyone needing to make any more up.

[I mean, quite seriously, promoting holocaust denial or alleging Zionist-Nazi colloboration is something of a rather different order from anything that I am aware of Tonge saying, as it constitutes the fabrication of facts, rather than merely the holding of questionable opinions.]

I always thought the Lib Dems were a bit suspect

Masalha is a UK academic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur_Masalha

” to argue that Zionists brought the holocaust on themselves by collaborating with Nazis; the idea being that enough world wide sympathy for dead Jews would lead to support for the creation of Israel.”

Well, though they are mortal enemies, Gillad Atzmon has argued that Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves by being “unpopular”, while Tony Greenstein has argued that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis.

Er… Does anyone give a fucking toss what Baroness Tonge thinks. I don’t And there’s a Gabriel 2 Missile in it for any fucker who disagrees.

Or a JDAM. There is gonna be a reckoning and those viscious bastard Hamas and Hezbollah and gonne be pwned.

This will end with Israel finally lowering the boom. There is no alternative for civilization.

Somebody needs to set up http://www.LibDems4Hamas.com

I don’t often agree with Stephen Pollard but on this he is right.

Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists.

I do remember a question of Tonge’s in the Commons, asking the then PM Blair whether he was happy with the teaching of creationism alongside Darwin in schools. Remarkably, Blair said yes.

She basically has good liberal views on most subjects, which I generally support, and she left the Commons through tragic circumstances.

As for Palestine and Israel, blimey, it’s a bit of a hot potato.

Nur Masalha is lecturer at St Marys University College (SMUC), where I did teacher training.

I submitted to him a PhD proposal. Needless to say, he didn’t like it.

He was closely associated with Dr Michael Prior there, while he was still alive.

Breath-taking.

To suggest the what occurs in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust and to salute those who encourage suicide bombing as brave leaves too stunned to feel angry. It is simply the wilful emasculation of historical fact, truth and moral values to suit a political agenda.

Jenny Tonge is now an emblem for the irrational liberalism that more and more people in western democracies are rising against in disgust.

I wonder if Tonge, willing as she is to imagine herself a suicide bomber, can also countenance crushing a child’s head with a rifle butt. After all, the only difference is that she would have to live with herself afterwards. If she actually believes what she says, that should be no problem at all.

Her daughter’s sad & pointless death (in an exploding kettle incident) deeply shocked her as, unfortunately, it failed to hurt any Jews.

Normal comments from the British Left. Why the surprise? Today, CiF had articles from Steele, Soumaya and some pro-Hizbullah student. All three have dodgey views regarding the legitimacy of Jewish self-determination. With demographic shifts, expect the Hamas-Leftist alliance to increase in numbers and power.

FARC
IRA
THE REAL IRA
THE NKVD
THE KGB
RED ARMY FACTION
SARDINISTA NATIONAL LIBERATION FRONT
hundreads of South American terrorist groups.

We all know what these groups have common. Varying degrees of support from the European Left. There is nothing new about this, nothing.

I am ashamed that I used to support her.

“Sardinista” – priceless! Did they ever escape from that can?

Back OT. Is it fair to condemn the Baroness on the basis of some quote-mining from the not exactly agenda-less Mr Pollard, or has anyone seen the whole speech?

The problem here is: do you trust Pollard’s editorialising, and the usual cut and paste malarkey of blogging? Probably not.

Take this for example:

She then moved to the subject of antisemitism and stated that it exists in the world today because of Israel’s behaviour: “how can we stop antisemitism if they [Israel] keep treating the Palestinians like this?”

The trouble is the quote does not support the commentary. According to the quote, she does not say that antisemitism (hatred of Jews) in the world today exists because of Israel’s behaviour (causation). She says that its made more difficult to tackle (even impossible) because of some of the actions of Israel. Of course, one does not have to agree with that, but its really not the same as what Pollard makes it out to be in: that Tonge claimed antisemitism exists purely because of Israel’s behaviour. Tonge makes no claims regarding the direct causation of antisemitism, but rather claimed that Israel’s actions (i.e. the actions of a government) makes it difficult to tackle it.

These are subtle differences maybe, but important ones; its in the nature of blogging and commentary that folk’s words get distorted to fit preconceived notions.

She’s quite bonkers. So a dead cert for the next season of Question Time, along with other loony darlings of the Beeb, such as Galloway, Benn, Alibhai-Brown, Meacher, etc.. How long before St. Madelaine of the Sorrows joins her on cloud 9?

Look, if David T wants to trust the editorialising, selective quoting, etc of one Stephen Pollard (FFS), that’s his business. But its really quite absurd. You know, its quite reasonable to disagree with Tonge’s views without resorting to personal abuse and distortion, or claiming that she is antisemitic. I don’t think she is. So let’s see if folk here can criticise her in civilised way, hey? Now, that would be progress!

“Although I was not there, and no recording seems to have been made, I have been given a detailed set of notes taken by someone in the audience.”

Phew. That’s removed all my doubts about a political agenda, decontextualised quotations, and the questionable use of ellipses.

Venichka, I take your point that Tonge ‘is quite obnoxious and deluded enough as she is’. That is self-evident to all decent people. But I was making another point about the trajectory of people’s views. That what we have here is a clear example of a person whose public views on this subject are getting more extreme.

“I am beginning to understand the power of the Israel lobby, active here as well as in the USA, with AIPAC, the Friends of Israel and the Board of Deputies.”

“They take vindictive actions against people who oppose and criticise the lobby, getting them removed from positions that they hold and preventing them from speaking — even on unrelated subjects, in my case.

“I understand their methods. I have many examples. They make constant accusations of antisemitism, when no such sentiment exists, to silence Israel’s critics.”

“One of the things I’ve discovered over the years is that whenever anyone criticises Israel in a positive way they get accused of antisemitism,” she said.

“But it is not antisemitism, it is anti-Israeli-governmentism. Politicians who criticise Israel are sidelined due to pressure on party leaders to remove them.”

Baroness Tonge added that the reason she was so outspoken on this matter was in order to stop antisemitism from increasing.

“Jewish people in this country and all over Europe are being targeted because there are people out there who do not distinguish them from the Israeli government. I don’t want that to happen. It’s a tragedy,” she said.

“We do not want antisemitism to come back. It’s the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the human race. But it will return if Israel continues doing what it’s doing.”

“I have so many friends and colleagues who are Jewish and I don’t want to see them suffering in this way.”
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2023

I don’t see what relevance her daughter’s horrible death has. More likely, a minor politico in a permanent opposition party made an idiotic remark and, as is common with politicos of any level, blamed everyone but herself. Even if she did call Claire Short an arse for the golden cows remark.

Oh, and Walter Boswell is now undoubtedly a Troofer.

“dececent people” indeed!

“Oh, and Walter Boswell is now undoubtedly a Troofer.”

How did you come to that conclusion?

Marvin said:”Somebody needs to set up http://www.LibDems4Hamas.com”

Chair Baroness Tonge perhaps? :-(

Alex Ross said:”Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists.”

Well the ostensibly secular ’socialists’ of the SWP seemed to have a go. Tonge is backing those groups that are neither Liberal nor Democratic in any way shape or form.

The title of this post should more accurately be “What An Unnamed Third Party Told Stephen Pollard That Baroness Tonge Said”.

I always love the ’some of my best friends are Jewish’ defence to anti-Semitism. Anyone who uses that line might as well be wearing a Swastika armband.

Ahhh, Benji, Larry and friends.

All else fails shoot the messenger, eh.

I suspect you will find that Ms Tonge won’t be denying her comments; or doing so with much conviction. More likely she’ll waffle about being smeared by the lobby.

Moreover, Pollard explicitly states at the beginning of his entry that he has sought recordings of the speech but was unable to get one. Not much of a conspiracy there really; if anything he is telling the readers that it is theoretically possible that the notes are all out of context or an elaborate hoax. Fair enough to any rationale person.

Knowing Ms Tonge as I do (and unlike the pair of you I have actually met the woman several times) she will be quite proud of what she is quoted as saying. She is on the record (with sources im sure you’ll approve of more than you evidently do Mr Pollard) as having said the same things on numerous occassions.

Despicable as what she says is; its neither new nor surprising.

Waffle all you like about Pollard, misquotes, third parties.

Your point seems to be…..if you dont have 100% evidence of something being said, but only have word of mouth evidence, then don’t write about it.

Fascinating..

It may account for the lack of content on your blog Benj - you obviously have high editorial standards and will only publish something when you are very, very very sure of your facts.

Is that why The Guardian got rid of you? Or was it because you were spending on your time here having your ass kicked?

J

Back on topic, and to waste no time on the likes of the usual suspects; her comments are horrible. But, they are totally unsurprising.

Chat to your average Grauniad journalist and that’s what they think. The jews have it coming.

60 years of having to say sorry for the holocaust - many people are just sick of it obviously. Thats how it sounds. Take a look at the Beeb website any day. The UK has soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. They and their allies are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. On a daily basis they are killing civilians, whether by accident or otherwise…….But the Beeb website will be busy reporting a case of an Israeli army officer shooting a Plaestinian prisoner in the toe….with a rubber bullet. Or reporting on how Arab bulldozer drivers are worried about facing prejudice now (honestly, Im reallynot making that up). And from Afghanistan or Iraq….the odd grainy image of that bald bloke Leithhead talking about not a lot really.

Its sick, but its where we are at.

When I was young I used to wonder at how something like the holocaust could have happened. Nowadays…it all seems to be quite easy really.

Ahhh JimmyTheNail… I don’t have any loyalty to the Tonge, and if her comments are accurately reported then I’m happy to join in the general condemnation. OK?

But one thing I am entirely certain of, is that Stephen Pollard is a dreadful, useless hack. If he told me it was raining, I’d check outside. And if he told me that an unnamed source had privately assured him that it was raining, then I’d put on my bikini and shades and head straight to the beach.

JimmyTheNail has nailed it.

His comment at 7:39pm should be repeated often.
This is how it always start for the Jews.

I am sure if Baroness Tonge feels that she has been libelled, or that her words were misrepresented, then she’ll take action, but that’s unlikely to happen as she’d have to openly state her real views under oath, and that wouldn’t be too pretty a sight.

Why is there any surprise? Beyond the Gorgeous one the Lib Dems were the real Stopper voice in the House of Commons - they are a bunch of SWP-ers without the time to devote to hard-leftery, instead making up for it with organic tofu and high-horsed sancitmony.

I think you mean She is right don’t you?

Apologies, Walter, I was being a moron.

Ben White:

‘ “Although I was not there, and no recording seems to have been made, I have been given a detailed set of notes taken by someone in the audience.”

Phew. That’s removed all my doubts about a political agenda, decontextualised quotations, and the questionable use of ellipses.’

Surely what you mean, Ben White, is, “I agree with her (that is, Baroness Tonge), just like I agreed with President Ahmadinejad of Iran”:

History, Myths and All the News That’s Fit to Print

Ben White (www.benwhite.org.uk)

The Palestine Chronicle, 10th January 2006

Ever since the election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran, relations between Iran and the West have grown increasingly strained. There is no one simple reason for this, and responsibility lies with the Americans, the British, the Israelis, and the Iranians themselves. There are big issues at play, and a lot at stake, from Iran’s nuclear programme to the miserable occupation of Iraq, from Israel’s desire for regional hegemony to Iranian domestic politics.
Out of these complex factors, the theme that has often dominated in the media has been the various comments made by President Ahmadinejad regarding Israel. Spread over several months, there have been three particularly high-profile remarks made by the Iranian head of state that have drawn strong condemnation from statesmen and commentators alike, and contributed to the deterioration of EU-Iranian relations.
At the end of last October, Ahmadinejad was addressing an anti-Zionist conference, during which he reiterated his support for Ayatollah Khomeini’s position that Israel “must be wiped off the map”. Despite the fact that anti-Zionism has been a core element of Iranian policy since the 1979 revolution, these reported remarks touched off a media frenzy and diplomatic firestorm.
Even though these views were nothing ‘new’, there were other incongruities about the incident. Ahmadinejad had not necessarily, as many assumed, called for an apocalyptic battle to wipe out the Jews. Moreover, Israel’s presence on the map has a corollary in Palestine’s cartographic absence, and an anti-Zionist position might well be expressed by the desire to see the Israeli ethnocratic, apartheid infrastructures dismantled – and in that sense remove Israel from the map.
But in what becomes a consistent theme, whatever the actual meaning of Ahmadinejad’s comments – and there is at least more ambiguity than most allowed – a head of state was being threatened with diplomatic sanction at the highest level, not for his nation’s behaviour, but for his beliefs. Meanwhile, Israel, highly successful until now in keeping Palestine very much off the map, points the finger and says, ‘We told you so’.
The second, highly publicised, remarks came in mid-December, when Ahmadinejad was reported as denying the Holocaust. The President’s remarks, as detailed on the official Iranian news agency website, did not actually denote a disbelief in the genocide perpetrated against the Jews during World War II. Rather, they sought to highlight the hypocrisy of European guilt over the Holocaust contrasted with their support for the colonisation of Palestine:

“If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.”

This is not a particularly controversial argument – the Jews were persecuted in Europe, but the guilt of the Western powers was salved at the expense of the Palestinians. The news agency goes on though to report that the President described how “some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets because when a person expresses disbelief in God, religion and prophets they do not object to him but they will protest to anyone who would reject the Holocaust”. Again, Ahmadinejad is drawing attention to the extent to which European nations prosecute Holocaust deniers, yet are by and large post-Christian societies with little regard for religion. For a devout believer like the Iranian President, this must seem like a strange situation.
Note also that the President said that “some have created a myth on holocaust”. While most people immediately equate a ‘myth’ with a fabricated fairy-tale, this is not necessarily the case. A quick consultation of dictionary definitions confirms that “many historians consider that myths can also be accounts of actual events that have become highly imbued with symbolic meaning” [my italics], this from Wikipedia. The entry continues, “This process occurs in part because the events described become detached from their original context and new context is substituted, often through analogy with current or recent events”.
Even more relevantly, given the use of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism as a propaganda tool of Zionist apologists, historian Richard Slotkin has described the process whereby historical events become ‘myth’ thus:

stories drawn from a society’s history that have acquired through persistent usage the power of symbolizing that society’s ideology and of dramatizing its moral consciousness–with all the complexities and contradictions that consciousness may contain.

This is extremely pertinent to the use of the Holocaust, not only in terms of the Western consciousness and relations with Israel, but also in relation to Israel’s national identity. The Holocaust comes to symbolize the intrinsic anti-Jewish racism of ‘Gentile’ societies, and therefore proving the need for a Jewish state. More disturbingly perhaps, the Holocaust acts as a standard for human depravity set so high, that any treatment of the Palestinians is justifiable, as long as it falls short of what was experienced by the Jews in Nazi Europe.
The third of Ahmadinejad’s reported comments made early in the New Year, created far fewer headlines, which when the content is examined, proves instructive. Associated Press carried the comments, but the BBC, keen to cover the previous remarks in detail, deemed the story not newsworthy. On the official Iranian news agency, Ahmadinejad again asked why Europe didn’t pay the cost of a Jewish state itself, but then went further. Affirming that “Iran makes a distinction between Judaism and Zionism”, Ahmadinejad suggested that the original European support for Zionism was itself anti-Semitic in motivation, by ensuring that the Jews were “expelled” from Europe.
This phenomenon, of anti-Semitic support for Zionism, was acknowledged and taken advantage of by early Zionist proponents. There was overlap in the rhetoric of Zionism’s advocates and that of the anti-Semites, since both gained from the idea that the Jew would never ‘belong’ in a ‘Gentile’ society. Theodor Herzl recognized that the anti-Semites would be their “best friends” in galvanizing support for a Zionist state. Ahmadinejad was simply drawing attention to how anti-Semites in Britain and the US supported the Zionist project since it would mean less Jews in their own societies.
It could be argued, therefore, that the comments made by Ahmadinejad in recent months are not anti-Semitic, and instead, throw rhetorical barbs at a subject that is taboo in Western nations, namely, the complex relationship between the Holocaust, anti-Semitism in Europe, Zionism’s beginnings, and continued support for Israel. The reaction to the Iranian President’s thoughts on Israel is even stranger considering the genuine grounds for criticism that exist. The Iranian regime has closed numerous newspapers, and severe restrictions remain on freedom of expression. Internet use is monitored and limited, and homosexuals are executed. Most in the West would want to oppose the very ‘theocratic’ nature of the government itself.
Despite all that, what casts doubt over negotiations with Iran over its nuclear policy, is not its human rights abuses, but the President’s views on Zionism. A country was threatened with censorship and sanction, not because of its actions but on account of the political opinions of its leader (even assuming they were not misinterpreted). In exactly the same week as the furore over Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust remarks, a UK inquest delivered its unanimous verdict that British UN worker Iain Hook had been killed by the Israeli army in Jenin in a “deliberate” act. Another crime in a long list, yet that week, it was Iran being condemned by the international community – on account of a speech.
This very week, there was a small story in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz about a conference taking place in Acre about “finding ways to achieve a permanent Jewish majority” in the city. One of the organisers for the conference is described as believing that “Acre has the right to exist as a mixed city only if it has a permanent Jewish majority”. For Arabs to be labelled a ‘demographic threat’ is par for the course in the Israeli political establishment. But don’t expect Israel’s open support for, and implementation of, occupation, colonisation, and racial discrimination, to come under the same scrutiny as Ahmadinejad’s remarks on European history. Because that would be anti-Semitic, right?

Larry, darling, I’d just love to see you in a bikini!

Nothing too brazen though, I hope, for Larry. Something classic, something chic. Always leave something to the imagination, don’t just put it all out there.

Zkh, you’re wasting your time with all that babble nonsense.
Problems with Iran and the West stem from the following: a completely bonkers, paranoid and violent theocracy running a huge and extremely rich country, oppressing women, persecuting and executing homosexuals, pursuing an aggressive foreign policy which includes blowing up civilian Jewish centres, and supporting other violent, so-called “revolutionary” but actually anti-democratic movements all over the world.
Anti-semitism has existed all over the world and led to large-scale Jews migration (or simpy fleeing) from most places they’ve settled every few generations for 2000 years. Arab and Islamic anti-semitism has always been there too. Jews were generally treated better in the Islamic world where the rulers were not considered very religious or pious by their co-religionists (e.g. the Omayyads). The Muslims were the first to make the Jews wear yellow badges and different clothing to distinguish them from Muslims.
The Holocaust ended just a few years before the Palestinian Nakbah. Why then can the Palestinians can go on and on about their tragedy but not the Jews? Actually, during and after the Nakba the same number of Jews were brutally forced to leave their homes in Arab countries as Palestinians were made to leave theirs.
You can’t have your cake and eat it. The Holocaust is cited on and on by Jews because most of us lost large numbers of close relatives due to it and because it was the most extensive, industrialised mass-murder of all time.
When Iran has a democratically-elected government that acts responsibly i.e. doesn’t advocate genocide of the Jews while denying there ever was one (no - it’s not about Western hypocrisy -most of the invitees to the conference had strong Nazi or Neo-Nazi connections, with exception of the handful of token uncle Tom hassidic Jews) then maybe there will be proper engagement with it. But Iran today is a thoroughly repulsive regime, and even arse-licking apologists of dictatorships like you will never be able to convince reasonable people otherwise.
Get an education and more importantly, get a fucking life you arsehole!

Albert,

stop just there

Zkharya is not an apologist for the Iranian dictatorship, he was, I believe, pointing to Ben White’s agenda on this topic.

now why not re-read his comments and apologise to him :)

It is slightly disingenuous to blame Stephen Pollard for presenting second-hand evidence, given that Jenny Tonge is on record as saying all this – and more.

The story of Jenny Tonge is, I believe, yet another confirmation of the old truth that a minor offence, once compounded by pomposity, stupidity and lack of introspection leads to an extreme offence.

She originally made a stupid remark about why, had she been a Palestinian, she would have contemplated being a suicide bomber. Stupid, callous – call it what you may – but, had she immediately withdraw it, “clarified” it out of existence, apologised for the offence, it would have been forgotten in a week, that being long time in politics.

But Jenny Tonge is not one to apologise or withdraw remarks. She is too self-important, too pompous, too unable to comprehend the meaning of her remarks. No, she had to stand behind them, and this has led her on an inoxerable path toward increasingly more extreme and, indeed, racist pronouncements. On the way she lost her front-bench position, got condemned by leaders of her own party (who, no matter what you think about them, aren’t anti-Semites) – but for her, by this stage, this was not a reaction of others to what they have perceived as extremist and racist remarks. Oh, no, it was the dark hand of International Jewry.

When in cesspool, she keeps digging.

Why is there any surprise? Beyond the Gorgeous one the Lib Dems were the real Stopper voice in the House of Commons

True up to a point,if you’re just talking about Iraq, but lets not forget Ashdown determination to keep Bosnia on the agenda when most British politicians were covering themselves with nothing.
Foot and Thatcher are the other two that come out of the pre Srebrenica period with any credibility.

Tory backbenchers used to do organised yawning when Ashdown brought up Bosnia week after week at PMQs.
Hurd and Rifkind would sit there smirking.

The gorgeous one,defender of muslims, spoke for approximately two minutes in five years regarding Bosnia.
Mostly to repeat a mantra that if Bosnia had Oil, the west would’ve invaded like it invaded Kuwait.
Maybe true, but if you opposed the invasion of Kuwait,a bit of a non sequitor.

Actually, what I ‘meant’, Modernity, was that, I suspect, ‘contextualising’ the comments of Jenny Tonge was very much what Ben meant by ‘contextualising’ the remarks of Ahmadinejad.

But I’m sure he’ll be back to clarify. More fool me for starting this up, though. I’m busy enough as it is.

Why ever was Poison Tongue Tonge given a peerage? Surely not simply because of her daughter’s unfortunate death and her wish to retire from the Commons. The Lib Dems and nation are now stuck with her disreputable utterings ad infinitum in the House of Lords. Lucky there was nobody else to record them at IslamExpo except Stephen Pollard’s friend.

All else fails shoot the messenger, eh.

How ironic… Because you go on to make a personal attack on me based on no evidence and purely on speculation. Never mind!

I just don’t trust Pollard’s editorial. This is an age old game - and it works particularly well on blogs. A sentence here and there is pulled out of context, misinterpreted, reinterpreted, spun and further editorialised, until a picture of the subject of the attack is made to fit very neatly into the preconceived notions of those doing the attacking.

I think its perfectly possible to criticise Tonge comments etc. However, this quick “fisking” technique, where folk’s comments are chopped up and editorial is added in between - I generally don’t trust.

Someone publish a full copy of all her comments, I think that’s fair. We can make up our own minds. However, in the absence of that, having Pollard make up my mind for me is not an alternative option.

I am fucking angry at this pathetic shower of shit who keeps repeating the lie that Israel was created due to The Holocaust - which then leaves the pathetic Palestinian Terrorists and supporters bleating “Why are we punished for Nazi Germany?”

Israel was ‘created’ by the act of The Mandate For Palestine 1922 which created a Jewish National Home with the idea that it may flourish into a state.

By 1947 The British has enough! They were stopping Jews fleeing the Holocaust and had constant fighting between the Arabs and Jews.

Eventually they offered The Partition Plan (Res 181). The Arabs rejected. Israel was born out of defeating the attacking Arabs and when having control over certain areas they declared Independence.

Israel was created out of the British leaving and the Arabs attacking. NOT BECAUSE OF THE HOLOCAUST!!!!

Will someone please challenge these Islamist over the facts.

The Lib Dems and nation are now stuck with her disreputable utterings ad infinitum in the House of Lords.

Yes, and a good example of the preconceived notions I talk about is the idea that folk must be the cardboard cutout, one dimensional characters of your imaginings. Even if one disagrees with Tonge’s views on Israel and Palestine, I think its inaccurate to portray her as a person who only makes those type of remarks and does nothing else. She has fully taken part in a wide variety of debates and issues at Parliament for many years.

Does anyone feel that a holocaust (lower case) against Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah wouldn’t be a popular outcome?

Well, as lower-case it just means disaster, as we found out when the word ’shoah’ was used by an Israeli politicician to tell Hamas it risked a disaster.

If we visit a disater against them then who will cry?

Just as “Fisking” has entered the lexicon can we propogate “A Good Tonging” - sounds rude! And if Ridley and Tonge argue will Ridley receive a Good Tonging? Eughhh!

Well if that one takes off Maven, you can claim to be the originator!

Maven, don’t get angry. What’s the point?

Some people choose not to see history, or they assume their ignorance of it entitles them to ignore it.

It’s not enough that most European or Asian Jews were murdered or effectively driven out in the 19th and 20th centuries to America or Palestine/Israel. Some people choose to ignore that most Jews have been regarded as ‘Palestinians’ dispossessed for most of Christian or Islamic history. Ahmadinejad included.

For some people, Jewish history, and especially Jewish tragic history, begins with the Holocaust. Ben White accuses ‘Zionists’ of believing that. But he is merely projecting his own views.

Palestinian Christians and Muslims are not paying the price for the holocaust. They are paying the price for Palestine, its original creation on Jewish dispossession, to alienate Jews from the land of Israel forever, and the enshrining of that fact, in Christian and Islamic tradition, resulting, even in the 19th and 20th centuries, in European and Arab Jews as being more nationally Jewish, more ‘Palestinian’, than European or Arab.

Partition was compromise, justice for both parties.

I should say (I’m half asleep and on painkillers)

‘resulting, even in the 19th and 20th centuries, in European and Arab Jews as being REGARDED AS more nationally Jewish, more ‘Palestinian’, than European or Arab’.

Benji

you shouldn’t get so excited, it’s all a storm in a teacup

Baroness Tonge, after seeing her latest pics, I would, mmmmmmm

we allowed the creation of Israel due to the holocaust

This wasn’t brightest thing to say - although all we have to go on is an out of context quote and not the full transcipt.

Zkharya:
Take care of yourself. You are always on painkillers.
I am seriously concerned, maybe you should get treated.
Best,
Fabian

Benjamin, you miss my point about Poison Tongue Tonge’s utterances, which is: if you support or sympathise with suicide bombers, anything you say in public can never be reputable and will thus be construed by the UK public. The worst living example is, of course, Cherie Blair, who has recently done a TV programme on knife crime, which I purposely did not watch.

Suicide bombings are a method of war, like anything else. True, they rely on deception and are usually directed at civilian targets, but not always.

What is curious is Tonge’s strongly implying the suicide bomber’s is more legitimate because the bomber gives their life. One can almost here the echo of ‘The Jews are the most cowardly of creatures, and love life. We the Muslims, on the other hand, love death’.

we allowed the creation of Israel due to the holocaust

Benji -

This wasn’t brightest thing to say - although all we have to go on is an out of context quote and not the full transcipt.

What ‘context’ could alter the meaning of that sentence? Care to suggest one?

‘Not sure how a self-declared “liberal democrat” can effectively support theocratic, murderous racists’.

Unless she joins the Russian party of the same name.

the so calle “Baroness Tong” has a record of siding with Islamic terrorists. If the Lib Dems had a principals she would be thrown out of the Party.

On a lighter note, one must observe that the woman is so ugly, that a burqua and face mask would be a most desirable if and when she finally converts to the “religion of peace”

Zkharya, yes, my sincere apologies to you. Silly ass I can be, quite often…

Thanks for pointing out my mistake, Modernity.

“Suicide bombings are a method of war, like anything else.” You are definitely right about “like anything else,” Zkharya. It reminds me of the true story of the Hamptead Heath bagpiper who was taken to court by Camden Council a few years ago for breach of a bye law which prohibited the playing of any musical instrument on the Heath. His defence was that the bagpipes are not an instrument of music, they are an instrument of War.

Some people choose to ignore that most Jews have been regarded as ‘Palestinians’ dispossessed for most of Christian or Islamic history

Just read this http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm

The Jerusalem Post, founded in 1932, was called The Palestine Post until 1948.

The United Jewish Appeal (UJA) was established in 1939 as a merger of the United Palestine Appeal and the fund-raising arm of the Joint Distribution Committee.

Ergo, The Palestinians were also called Jews. If there are a people called “Palestinians” today who are Arabs then they are fakes.

I remember thinking in the foyer of Mishcon de Reya;

’so this is what the Jewish Lobby looks like, so well funded!’

When Baroness Tonge praises the Arab Palestinians suicide bombers in Israel, does it mean she also praises suicide bombers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt when Muslims kill fellow Muslims and in Russia when Chechen rebels massacre Christian Russians? Or does her praise for suicide bombers apply only when Muslims massacre Jews? How such an ignorant woman can be a Baroness and much so be a member of the Liberal Democrates?

As Stephen Pollard mentioned, and other posters have pointed out, Tonge has a history of making borderline anti-Semitic remarks. At a fringe meeting at the Lib-Dem conference two years ago, she stated that:

“The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they have probably got a certain grip on our party.”

However, if Pollard thinks this latest outrage will lead to action against the Baroness, he should think again. If the selection of comments on Liberal Democrat Voice following her above remarks are anything to go by, she has plenty of fellow travellers within the ranks of the Limps. As one poster complains:

“Some of the comments I have seen on this website would be more appropriate to the BNP than the Lib Dems.”

Quite.

Tonge is certainly right that Israel was only created because of post-war guilt. It should have certainly never have been established in the geographical area chosen, simply because it will always be an impossibility to retain peace given that its immediate neighbours are and always will be hostile to its existence . Whether this is right or wrong is not the point - the simple fact is that it is true. And world and regional peace is more important than the continuing existence of Israel in that particular location.

Yes, Merseymike, some people also thought giving Sudetenland to Hitler would appease him and bring “peace with honour” to Europe and the world. And some people thought after WW2 that giving Stalin Eastern Europe would halt Soviet imperialist aims. I guess history was never one of your strong points - that’s just assuming you ever had anything remotely resembling a basic education.

Merseymike -

I have some sympathy with your view. I think if a Jewish republic had been created in Bavaria after the war, I doubt anyone would have seriously objected and the state would have retained its legitimacy and formed a dynamic part of the European Union. It would be surrounded now by friends not enemies.

However, history is full of such “might have been betters”. A victory for the German liberals in 1848 would surely have resulted in a very different Europe. Without a right wing militaristic Germany we might have avoided World War 1, the Bolshevik Revolution and the Second World War that followed.

Israel, a state sanctioned by the UN and a member of the UN, exists where it does. It is a democratic state that broadly adheres to civilised values.

How typical of Harry’s place, much like Engage, to have twisted the Baroness’ words to suit their own agenda.

No where has she condoned suicde bombing. She has simply said that it is no worse than Israel’s bombing. In fact, Israel’s bombing is worse as it is state sanctioned - and it kills more people.

Dear Deborah, please stick to your entertainment persona by singing in public with a bullhorn and being led away by the police shouting “fascists”. Love the wig by the way. Could you and The Poison Tongue work up a double act.

“I have some sympathy with your view. I think if a Jewish republic had been created in Bavaria after the war” (field)

You mean, next to the ovens?

And we would have had to fly Ben Gurion and Moshe Dayan over there…

field: for the last time, Israel is not a creation of the UN. Israel was created slowly and gradually by the Jews since the start of the Zionist movement and Hovevei Tzion. Your words are those of an ignorant twat, who thinks he is God and can command the Jews to come over here or go over there.
Get a grip.

‘ In fact, Israel’s bombing is worse as it is state sanctioned - and it kills more people.’

In that case, Deborah, Tongue is saying suicide bombing is better. Which is what she is saying: it is legitimised by the act of self-sacrifice, whereas the Israeli bomber’s act is legitimised by the state. It does not seem unreasonable to infer the Baroness is saying the former is superior to the latter.

And the Baroness says nothing of the Israeli bomber’s being worse for killing more.

In any case, it is a flawed argument of yours. The western allies killed more Germans than vice versa. It was necessary in order to defeat the Nazi state.

And why is state sanctioned bombing worse than non-state sanctioned bombing? You might as well say it is never legitimate for a state to engage in acts of bombing, which is patently absurd.

In any case, the suicide bomber is a sanctioned by a state. A suicide bomber is necessarily part of network, of suppliers, indoctrinators, planners. All this is part of a de facto state, a society consisting in its people. In this case, Hamas.

In the end, the Baroness is saying Israeli Jews are cowards for not sacrificing their lives while Palestinian Muslims are courageous for doing so i.e. Jews are cowards, Muslims are Mujahadin.

OK, that’s putting it a bit strongly, but I think it conveys a valid point.

Not all Jews are cowards, Zkharya. Fink is the only brave Jew there is.
I still need to figure out why.

‘All this is part of a de facto state, a society consisting in its people. In this case, Hamas.’

I should, say, Hamas as representative of a considerable portion of Palestinian society.

Fabian, Jews are only courageous when they break away from Jewish consensus, or mainstream. Muslims are courageous for the reverse.

Maybe the need is for something in the middle.

Maybe the need is for something in the middle.

Was that really Deborah Fink who posted here? Whether or it was, as a matter of interest, why did she publicly declare herself ashamed to be a Jew? Why does she think Jews are collectively guilty of whatever she accuses Israel of? Why did she call Israel an “apartheid” state when it’s Arab population (forming 20%) have a free right to vote and parliamentary representation there when none of Israel’s Arab neighbours have that (even Lebanon’s MPs are severely restricted by ethnicity and religion in their range of potential government posts). And why does she think she has a better understanding of Israel and the Palestinians, and a superior moral position to boot, than most other Jews? I’d genuinely like to know why she believes that.

Dear Deborah, I’ve got it now. I was toying with the idea that the pair of you should be called “The Hystericals” or perhaps “The Screaming Hab Dabs,” but, on reflection your star quality would be better augmented by the addition of Vanessa Redgrave. You could then call yourselves “The Three Terrors.” Maybe not The Theatre Royal, Drury Lane just yet, but perhaps a Jewish day care centre near you.

Does anyone know if the Tamimi/Pappe/Masalha panel was the same one that Gabrielle Rifkind chaired? If it was, did she intervene to object to the offensive crap?

Deborah Fink

When is your trial for being arrested at ‘Salute To Israel’?

We want to be in the Public Gallery to support you

Albert, just to make it clear that I did not say that I was ashamed to be a Jew, but that I am ashamed, as a Jew, i.e. of what Israel is doing. But I know you all like twisting people’s words.

If I was ashamed of being Jewish, I wouldn’t blatantly declare my Jewishness. Part of what I am doing is to counteract the bad name Israel is giving Jews.

Jeremy, I was not arrested and I will be complaining to Police Complaints about their overreaction to my singing and failure to arrest that stupid hysterical woman who was trying to hit me.

Don’t worry, if there is another one of these sick parades, we will find greater and more creative ways to disrupt it. This year was a dress rehearsal.

O, and by the way, J-BIG wrote to the House of Lords in support of Jenny Tonge and told them not to take any notice of the Board of Deputies of British Zionists.

Here is the J-BIG letter, which we also coppied to Nick Clegg, the JC, the BoDs and Tonge.

July 22nd, 2008

Dear Lord McNally,

We understand that the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews has complained to you about Baroness Jenny Tonge’s criticism of them and of Israel. As Jews who wish to see justice for the Palestinians, we agree with Tonge’s criticisms.

The fact that they have written to you proves Tonge’s point, quoted in the Jewish Chronicle, that they ‘take vindictive actions against those who oppose and criticise the lobby…’ and try to ‘silence Israel’s critics’. It is also indicates that they are against free speech and do not like to hear the truth.

It should be apparent from their letter, that the Board does act more as a mouthpiece of the Israeli Embassy than it acts in the interests of British Jewry. Why else would it jump to Israel’s defence and try to silence its critics? Indeed, they have a long history of bullying critics to retract their comments, as they did with Cherrie Blair in June 2002 when she expressed an understanding of the despair felt by suicide bombers.

It is a sign of Tonge’s strength and integrity that she has refused to retract any comments she has made and a sign of the weakness of former Liberal Democrat Leader, Charles Kennedy’s, that he succumbed to their bullying and sacked her from the front bench.

The Board of Deputies does not represent the wide range of opinions of individual members of the Jewish community. We object to their pretence of speaking on our behalf and would ask you to resist their attempts to pressurise you into acting against Jenny Tonge. You should not be misled into thinking that you will appease British Jewry by doing so.

Yours faithfully

Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods (J-BIG)

Rica Bird

Ruth Clark

Sheila Colman

Mike Cushman

Nancy Elan

Mark Elf

Deborah Fink

Claire Glasman

Ruth Hall

Abe Hayeem

Rosamine Hayeem

Selma James

Yael Kahn

Michael Kalmanovitz

Paul Kaufman

Prof. Eleonore Kofman

Dr. Les Levidow

Deborah Maccoby

Prof. Moshe Machover

Diana Neslen

Orna Neumann

Prof. Jonathan Rosenhead

Leon Rosselson

Michael Sackin

Amanda Sebestyen

Ruth Tenne

S. Walinets

Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi

Devra Wiseman

Isn’t Mark Elf the guy who doubts Samir Kuntar is guilty, and thinks that Israel is so perverse that it framed him, why a poor stranded Lebanese “militant” in an Israeli house, as guilty?

Those are your friends, Mrs. Fink?

Dear Deborah, on reading your recent comment, I would make a slight alteration in the line-up of “The Three Terrors”. Vanessa Redgrave’s X-Factor is somewhat in abeyance at the moment and who better to replace her than Cherie Blair. Could you possibly start rehearsing the Blair version of “When I’m Sixty Four” for the finale at the day care centre. I predict it will be a riot.

“But I know you all like twisting people’s words”
Is that your answer to my questions on why you think you know more about Israel and the Palestinians than other Jews?

I come from an Iraqi family, and I speak Arabic. I read Arabic newspapers, I’ve lived in various Arab countries and spent time in Israel and Palestine. I’ve also picked up fairly good Farsi and read the Iranian press from time to time. I’d honestly like to know why you think you know more about Israel and the Palestininans than other Jews, including me? I’d like to know why you don’t demonstrate outside Arab embassies for their apartheid occupations of their own Arab lands and of Kurdish lands? Why single out Israel? If you don’t answer my questions, seeing as you personally responded to my last, without saying anything of substance, then you’ll be admitting by default that you know fuck all about anything you claim to talk about here.

I’m still waiting, Debsy

Dear Deborah,

most British Jews are in some way supportive of or sympathetic with the Jewish state of Israel. They believe it to be in some measure legitimate and entitled to defend and preserve itself. In this lies their ‘Zionism’. It would be more accurate to describe them as pro-Zionists. In this respect, Deborah, you are entirely unrepresentative, while the Board of Deputies is entirely right to, in some measure, reflect the views of British Jews as a whole. Once it consisted in the elite of assimilated Anglo-Jewry, like you, Deborah, and, unlike Anglo-Jewry as a whole, espoused decidely anti-Zionist views and opinions.

Such as Tongue, and you, Deborah, have essentialised ‘Zionism’, either in its most extreme form, or as the epitome of evil. The Board of Deputies is entirely correct in countering this slur against British Jews as a whole. And the Board is entirely correct to remark in the words of Tongue and her friends the very old and traditional antisemitic tropes.

The Board, unlike you, Deborah, who has admitted to being ‘not especially Jewish’, elsewhere (that television interview), has day to day contacts with and responsibilities for the Anglo-Jewish community, a community with which you show no signs of having especially deep or frequent contact. You implicitly claim to be acting in behalf of a Jewish community with which you seem to have very little to do.

Dear Deborah, Please. Pretty Please. You would top the bill, honestly. We could have your name first and the other two billed as “the sensational singing lovelies” in fairy lights above the day care centre cafeteria bar. Security would be tight, but it would be a sell-out. Pretty please with bells on…

Looking through the signatories to the J-BIG letter, obviously most names are unfamiliar. However, the few names of those whom I’ve happened to meet (not necessarily on purpose), they are all against the existence of the State of Israel. Regardless of its policies, regardless of its borders… Regardless of whether it bombs Palestinians or send them mobile hospitals. Regardless of whether it builds settlements for Jewsih settlers or for Palestinian refugees. Regardless of anything. Moreover, in the case of those particular individuals, this opposition to the very existence of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the existence or the rights of Palestinians: the latter are a convenient add-on, but the root cause is an ideological opposition to national expression of Jewish ethnicity. In this sense, these individuals (Mark Elf, Moshik Mahover) are well to the right of Ahmedinajad: for them a Jewish State in Bavaria would have been just as bad.

Now, why should anybody take a least notice of that lot? Why should be anybody interested at the least in their views about particular actions of the Israeli state? So, they stand together with Baroness Tonge: this tells us something about them, also about her. They deserve each other.

‘The Board of Deputies does not represent the wide range of opinions of individual members of the Jewish community. ‘

Neither do individuals, individually.

The BD is not especially ‘Zionist’. It supports the existence of the Jewish state of Israel (not its dissolution, as do Deb Fink and friends), that it may legitimately defend and preserve itself. It supported the Oslo accords and the priniciple of land for peace, for two states, Israel and Palestine. It does not dictate policy to the Israeli government, nor issues support or condemnation for specific policies.

However, when ‘Zionism’ is demonised as the epitome of evil, or when conspiracy theories about ‘international Zionism’ appear, it feels it has a duty to remark this fact, lest it lead to demonisation of Anglo-Jewry as a whole.

Deborah - Forked Tongue is now a hypocrite of the first order. She pretends to fight antisemitism but says “how can I fight antisemitism when Israel behaves like this?” She is a a lier, she never did anything to fight antisemitism. Why do you support liers? Why do you support Jewish antisemites like the obnoxious Elf? What happened in your childhood to make you like this?

I think that Deborah Fink et al. are contributing to antisemitism by essentialising the BD as a) ‘Zionist’ in the sense of ‘quasi Israeli’ and b) ‘the mouthpiece of the Israeli embassy’.

These are all quintessential essentializing antisemitisms. It is unfortunate that Deborah thinks this is what dedicating one’s life to Art entails. But, alas, she is not the first. I think she is tragic figure, like Rahel Vernhagen of Ense.

Zkharya, you’re very right about the effect of Ms Fink’s actions, but I doubt she has any genuine political convictions underpinning her behaviour.

It’s fairly plain that Deborah Fink suffers from a narcissistic borderline personality disorder. Her actions and remarks stem from an insatiable need to be the centre of attention. As she’s certainly no great beauty or shining intellect, she has no natural way of attracting large-scale attention except through exhibitionist, hysterical anti-social acts, designed to wind up vulnerable people she expects to be highly unlikely to harm her physically. (Hence her profound shock when a woman “man-handled” her during her recent performance against the Israel anniversary celebrations). Ms Fink would never, for instance, dream of running naked or screaming out profanities among a demonstrating crowd of Islamists calling for the oppression of women and homosexuals, because she knows they’d probably viciously attack her, if not kill her. Her bravery, therefore, only extends to upsetting the majority of her fellow UK Jews, whom she knows have a history of not killing or threatening those who taunt or disparage them.
I personally know a few Deborah Fink types - plain, unintelligent, unemployed but generously endowed with family wealth, they just have to go against the grain, because no one in the mainstream Jewish community wants to befriend them, let alone date them. Just sad, sad, self-obsessed, uneducated rich people.

“how can we fight Islanophobia in the face of islamist terrorism”

Albert

Another piece in the Fink dysfuntional personality jigsaw is her childhood - very dominant parents.

How dare you say that about us? Why, if you were Deborah I’d clap a good one you round the ear and buy you a flat in Hampstead!

Congratulations, Deborah Fink. You are this year’s recipient of the Israel Shahak memorial trophy for services to Judaism.

Reading your comment, I was struck by the similarity of your words, below:

“It should be apparent from their letter, that the Board does act more as a mouthpiece of the Israeli Embassy than it acts in the interests of British Jewry. Why else would it jump to Israel’s defence and try to silence its critics? Indeed, they have a long history of bullying critics to retract their comments.”

“The BOD has never represented BRITISH JEWS, as an organisation it represents the interests of ‘Jews’ as a Race or a religious group and this is proved by its support of Israel.”

Admittedly, Barnes lacks your rhetorical finesse, but his message is just the same. Indeed, in the article from which that statement was taken, Barnes mentions the other group which you support, and uses it to jusitify an attack on what he terms the “Zionist-Nazi” BoD:

“On 5 February 2007, a group of prominent British Jews, such as Nobel laureate Harold Pinter and lawyer Sir Geoffrey Bindman, launched an organization called Independent Jewish Voices to counterbalance what they perceive as uncritical support of Israel by major Jewish institutions in the UK, criticizing particularly the Board of Deputies of British Jews.”

“The idea therefore the BOD represents British Jews is mere propaganda, it represents Zionist Jews whose RACIAL LOYALTY is to their RACIAL HOMELAND which is Israel.”

You and your colleagues must be proud that, like Shahak, you too have given ammunition to far-Right Jew haters. And let’s not forget the Iranian State News Agency’s acclaim for J-BIG’s call to boycott Israeli goods.

Still, as you pointed out in this post to PeaceUK’s Yahoo Group, J-BIG’s boycott call ensures that:

“at least Iranians will see that not all Jews and Israelis, support Israel’s policies. In any case, it is not clear that Ahmajinidad [sic] wants to wipe out Israel, but just wants to get rid of Zionism, which is not the same thing.”

So not content with merely helping to demonise Israel and encourage neo-Nazis, you also find time to excuse a Holocaust denying anti-Semite whose state sponsors both Hamas and Hezbollah.

You are indeed a most fitting recipient of the Shahak trophy.

Stinky

You craved attention but all you got was loathing from 99% of your fellow Jews. Don’t think that Tonge and Co will help you, they never do. For them, you are just another Jew. You are an isolated, pitiful reject. I almost feel sorry for you.

Is this blog not moderated? Many of the comments writen about me are untrue and therefore libellous. I may seek legal advice about suing the owner of this site and in the meantime, suggest that any libellous coments about me are removed, immediately.

Of course, it all goes to show that the Israel apologists have no argument as all they can do is shoot and libel the mesenger. Those of us who criticise Israel don’t need to do that as we have truth on our side.

Dear Deborah, I was wrong. You don’t need to join a threesome with Cherie and La Tongue called “The Sensational Singing Lovelies,” at all. You should perform at the day care centre as a duo with that Islamist from Islam Expo and call yourselves “The Two Suers,” or “Two Sues” for short. The day care centre audience would, I am sure, love the two of you to sing as your opening number, Englebert Humperdink’s “Please release me let me go,/For I don’t love you any more.” The police would probably appreciate it as well, when you make your return visit to the station cell block.

Deborah may attempt to sue for defamation, but even if the onus will be on those sued to prove the truth of their hostile observations and comments, her own well-recorded public behaviour will vindicate surely vindicate them.

I say, I’d just like all you chaps to know that I’m in no way related to that upstart pseudo-suffragette calling herself Deborah Fink. We may not be very bright in my family, but we’re certainly not that stupid

Stinky

The Harrys Place legal team has already drafted its response to you, see Arkell v Pressdram

So go for it

Ms Fink

I think it is a good idea to sue Harrys Place for defamation. I would recommend my crack legal team which scored such a resounding victory over Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1996.

Sincerely
David Irving

Hello I would like to invite you to visit our website : http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

IKhwanweb is the Muslim Brotherhood”s only official English web site. The Main office is located in London, although Ikhwanweb has correspondents in most countries. Our staff is exclusively made of volunteers and stretched over the five continents.
The Muslim Brotherhood opinions and views can be found under the sections of MB statements and MB opinions, in addition to the Editorial Message.
Items posted under “other views” are usually different from these of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Ikhwanweb does not censor any articles or comments but has the right only to remove any inappropriate words that defy public taste
Ikhwanweb is not a news website, although we report news that matter to the Muslim Brotherhood”s cause. Our main misson is to present the Muslim Brotherhood vision right from the source and rebut misonceptions about the movement in western societies. We value debate on the issues and we welcome constructive criticism.

to help inform you about your subject matter,questions

If you have any addition questions you can email us at :
Ikhwanweb2010@gmail.com
m_salam2525@yahoo.com
ikhwanweb200@yahoo.com
editor@ikhwanweb.com

Oh, I forgot to tell you all as well, there is a wonderful movie that encapsulates the entire message and meaning of our movement, which you can find on YouTube called:

TWO WOMEN, ONE CUP

Hey, Omar, sorry to have ask another favour of you yet again, but I’d like you post all your ikhwan crap at some other websites too. Can you visit me in my office in Hell at, say, 06.66 Ibn Qutb time?

Omar - meet Deborah ‘Stinky’ Fink - she’s looking for a good Zionophobe date. You two will have a lot to talk about.

Is this blog not moderated? Many of the comments writen about me are untrue and therefore libellous. I may seek legal advice about suing the owner of this site and in the meantime, suggest that any libellous coments about me are removed, immediately.

Ooh that’s the spirit - open and honest debate. Er… Do you wander around suing everyone that says anything untrue and mean about you? I put it to you that you are an inflatable hotel called Gerald, and are solely responsible for Stephen Hawking’s motor-neurone disease and the increased price of gravel.

Of course, it all goes to show that the Israel apologists have no argument as all they can do is shoot and libel the mesenger.
No-one ever shoots and libels a messenger. It’s not really worth the extra bother of leaving the metaphor box.

“Many of the comments writen about me are untrue and therefore libellous”

Deborah your Logic needs attention as well as your Middle East history. Not all untrue comments are libellous. For example, the statement ‘Deborah Fink is knowledgeable about the Middle East and her views are therefore well-informed and responsible’ is untrue - but it is not libellous.

ATTENTION please,

I`m omar which my post counted the following innovation ;

Hello I would like to invite you to visit our website : http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

IKhwanweb is the Muslim Brotherhood”s only official English web site. The Main office is located in London, although Ikhwanweb has correspondents in most countries. Our staff is exclusively made of volunteers and stretched over the five continents.
The Muslim Brotherhood opinions and views can be found under the sections of MB statements and MB opinions, in addition to the Editorial Message.
Items posted under “other views” are usually different from these of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Ikhwanweb does not censor any articles or comments but has the right only to remove any inappropriate words that defy public taste
Ikhwanweb is not a news website, although we report news that matter to the Muslim Brotherhood”s cause. Our main misson is to present the Muslim Brotherhood vision right from the source and rebut misonceptions about the movement in western societies. We value debate on the issues and we welcome constructive criticism.

to help inform you about your subject matter,questions

If you have any addition questions you can email us at :
Ikhwanweb2010@gmail.com
m_salam2525@yahoo.com
ikhwanweb200@yahoo.com
editor@ikhwanweb.com

Please notice Thats the second one POSTED BY MY NAME are fake! And he and his movie does not REPRESENT Muslim brotherhood at any thing.

If Tonge supports suicide bombing I think she ought to lead by example - in a field in the middle of nowhere.

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