Harry’s Place

Stupid aside: It’s got to be confusing for Americans with all these references to Georgia that have nothing to do with Georgia GA.

Anyway, it’s a tangled web as always. But it seems to me need to work out some democratic principles that apply in these sorts of circusmtances.

As democrats I think we should always argue for territorial integrity under the UN Charter BUT we should always counsel our friends to allow regions disaffected from the centre to separate where this doesn’t in itself undermine the territorial integrity of the remainder.

I think that all UK democrats are agreed if the Scots want their independence then let them have it.

I think all democrats note with praise examples where countries have sub-divided in a relatively amicable manner as did the Czech and the Slovaks, as did the Norwegians and Swedes, as indeed (for the most part) did the Soviet Union when it collapsed.

Following these principles, I think we should condemn the Russians for their interference in Georgian affairs and offer Georgians assistance to repel the invaders. But we should strongly urge the Georgians to give South Ossetians and Abkhazians their independence.
As with Kosovo, if the Georgians prove to be obstructive about granting such independence then we should take counter measures.

Obama thought that the UN Security Council should discuss the crisis and censure Russia. Apparently, Obama didn’t realise that Russia is a member of the UNSC! Doh!!

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=87027&catid=81

I think it’s a bit more important than petty party politics. Georgia is a new democracy; naturally it will not be perfect - it’s taken our police many years to learn how to deal with riots. However Mikheil Saakashvili is a far more open leader than most in the world, certainly than Putin and co in Russia, and his people have taken a huge risk by choosing not to genuflect because naked Russian imperialism and looking to the free world instead.

Russia had been planning this invasion for months and had backed the terror against Georgia - terror that the likes of Israel would never have accepted - with the sole aim of starting this conflict and inflicting punishment bombings against the civilian population. McCain is 100% not to sit on the fence; it is right to make a firm moral judgment about the situation.

Also it may not be as big a concern for many Americans but our old people in Europe don’t want to be totally reliant on a military expansionist dictatorship for their energy supplies. The stakes for freedom in both east and western Europe could not be higher.

Supporting Obama seems to lead to some very odd contortions. Are you aiming for some blurry equivalence in that second paragraph? Georgia’s “reckless and provocative” actions were conducted within its own borders. Russian military actions against Georgia did not begin with the events of past few days. Russia’s concern is not to ensure the self-determination of the South Ossetians, but with expanding its southern border.

I think you are allowing your dislike of the messenger to cloud your understanding of the message.

Russia has been arming and training racist militia groups inside Ossetia to attack Georgians.

Gene much of what you say about McCain being too enthusiastic about the Georgian government is true but I think the last paragraph is unfair. McCain has been critical of Russia under Putin and supportive of Georgia since long before Scheunemann joined his team.

Russia is a menace and John McCain has realised that for some time.

Indeed, McCain has been blasting Russia for years and is on record as distrustful of Putin going back to when he was first put into power.

Your criticism of Georgian human rights is valid, but your (admittedly) lacking knowledge of the situation is glaring. Russian military provocations, in support of assaults by Ossetian rebels, were going on before Georgia’s own offensive and it is clear that Russia was trying to goad Georgia into more action in order to find a pretext to invade.

Russia didn’t overreact. This has been planned at least since Kosovo became independent.

Something you missed: It was a very well played Russian setup. Georgia villages where being shelled from South Ossetia and Georgia responded by trying to take the area back. It’s a legitimate use of self defense, but again, the Russians set them up hoping for this.

The Russian propaganda was prepared ahead of time and no one has gotten in to South Ossetia to verify Russian claims. Nor can we tell if the destruction done to South Ossetia was caused by Russian or Georgia forces.

The Russians had a large force ready to roll at a moments notice. It takes time to get an army in place and they where moving almost right away. Georgia was stupid, but again this is an act of aggression by a larger imperialist power. Can we get some protests in the street please?

What I find most profoundly depressing (well, apart from Russia’s blatant, naked, aggression) is that probably the western figure who [even for the wrong reasons] behaved in the most impressive way over this whole crisis, saying the right sort of thing, in the right sort of way, at the right sort of time, was….Dick Cheney.

(I think this says something about self-interest being a better motivating force - or at any rate a more reliable predictor of actions - than abstract ideals.)

Not sure what point Gene is making about McCain. His speech seemed pretty measured to me. What in it was “not unquestionably true”? Sure, like our MSM discussing Palestine, there was a lot he left out about the state of Georgian democracy, to which Gene has alluded, and indeed the issue is complex.

What do we do? Well Teddy Roosevelt’s maxim “talk softly but carry a big stick” seems a pretty sound synopsis of Diplomacy, because Diplomacy without the backing of force is mere pleading - it might work with guys who are essentially decent, but against thugs like Putin, Nazrullah and Khameini you are wasting your breath. They merely think like Stalin: “The Pope? How many divisions does he have?”. Solzhenitsyn might have modified his appraisal of Putin after this little brazen piece of naked theft.

So the answer is we have to spend more (much more) on Defence, and get the rest of the European component of NATO to do the same, as well as to get a joint doctrine sorted out, so we don’t look like idiots as we did over Bosnia. Otherwise, Putin will simply continue to piss in our faces. The “Peace dividend” is over.

As a Russian speaker and lover of its culture and people, what I find most depressing, and bewildering, about any reports of Russia as a nation is the predictable flood of automatic associations “threat, bear, aggressive, only respects strength, bully” and so on. My impression is that many of these commentators overwhelmingly obtain their knowledge and attitudes via English language sources. Some of these armchair experts have been to Moscow for a few days and had their picture taken in front of St Basil’s, thus becoming even more expert.
For all it’s manifest deficiencies and shortcomings, Russia is a great and deeply European culture, and we should be doing everything we can to acknowledge and build on our common interests. It’s enormously ironic that people of this country get all worked up about the Russian threat at the same time as Islam remorselessly extends its deadening influence over Europe and further afield. As was pointed out by a commentator in the Independent today, Bin Laden must be laughing his head off to see the kuffar arguing amongst themselves.
As for the surprising wealth of recent experts on Ossetia, I can’t help thinking that two weeks ago if you had asked them where Ossetia was, the overwhelming majority of them would have thought the south Pacific. My one abiding memory of Russian attitudes to Georgia, apart from many fond references in the poetry of Pasternak, Akhmadulina and others, is what my Russian acquaintances advised me in 1978, when I was allocated a room in a hostel with Georgian and a Russian room-mates. Whatever you do, they said, never bend over when there’s a Georgian behind you. I never worked out why, and they were reluctant to explain. Perhaps Venichka can tell me.

“Bin Laden must be laughing his head off to see the kuffar arguing amongst themselves.”

That is both a tragedy and a deep threat. Georgia has a 10% Muslim population, and is uncomfortably close to Chechnya. Al Qaeda will be looking for opportunities to destabilise the entire area, hyping up Muslim victims in Ossetia so it will become a magnet for jihadis. The most atrocious attack of recent times occurred in Beslan, North Ossetia. Putin is playing a dangerous game, and frankly, faced with the Islamic threat all along Russia’s massive southern border, I am surprised that he has been so short sighted.

Trofim makes a case for Russian culture and then follows it with a bit of Russian bigotry about Georgians. Count your toes, I believe you may have just shot yourself in the foot.

Field, according to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia) Abkhazia was large-majority Georgian until ethnic cleansing. I’m not at all sure we should strongly urge Georgia to grand independence to them.
It all smells of provocation on the part of Russia. Russia - champion of the right of self-determination? (See Chechnya for details)

Didnt get linkified probably because of the brackets?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia

I tried posting that url again, so it would turn into a link, but apparently HP decided it was spam?

“Russia is a great and deeply European culture, and we should be doing everything we can to acknowledge and build on our common interests.”

Yet George Bush and Tony Blair tried doing that for years and were rewarded with Russia reverting to dictatorship, menacing its neighbours and even committing nuclear terrorism in the heart of London (ie the murder of Litvinenko)

Disgracefully unbalanced and inaccurate post from HP’s leading Obamatron. This episode has only demonstrated further that Obama would be a disaster for the Western alliance and for the spread of democracy around the globe.

John McCain was right on the ball. He had the measure of Putin years ago. On the other hand, by prevaricating over the Russian invasion Obama’s foreign policy ignorance has been exposed.

Depressing surely that only Dick Cheney was the only US statesman to respond in the right way immediately. Even more depressing to read the kind of moral equivalence crap from Gene that contributed to the disasters in the former Yugoslavia.

I won’t repeat the sentient points made by Mike and Danish Cartoonist, but it is sufficient to say i) that Russian ethnic cleansing and attempts to annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia, internationally recognised as part of Georgia, have been accelerating, ii) under international law this was an internal matter for Georgia, and iii) Russia has just invaded and attacked a sovereign democratic state. Shame on you Gene.

Trofim, hmm, Georgians do tend to be wildly flamboyant and highly emotional (and very, rightly, proud of their ancient culture that predates the foundation of Rus by several centuries) - and, although in fact their culture is highly patriarchical and with its own (very different to Russia;s) cult of strong, heroic, men, everything is somewhat more florid and romantic than in ethnic Russialand. Swords and duels (blame Lermontov and Pushkin, and even Soviet comic film hero Shurik and his pursuit of his female “Prisoner of the Caucasus” inone of Gaiday’s films) rather than tanks and guns. And all that drinking wine from rams horns…

I think insinuations of homosexuality are a standard bit of Russian abuse against men of the Caucasus in general: As ever Putin has a charming quote to hand - in his claim that the Chechens say “Allah is above us, and the Goats (kozly) are below us”

(goat = in this context male prisoner deemed to be homosexual and thereby used as target of gang rape. The same term used by Yanokovych to describe those rallying in support of Yushchenko at the time of the Orange rev)

Still, I don’t think that Russians generally regard Georgians with hatred or contempt (as they often do, say, Armenians, or a lot of the muslim people of the Caucasus)

Also, no justification for the 1992 ethnic cleansing of Abkhazia (which is the bit of the Caucasus that gets rather Balkan-like poltiically) - but this was more or less a direct reversal of a similar bit of ethnic cleansing in the 1920s. The whole situation there is a lot nastier than in Ossetia

Homercles - you are correct.

Abhazia had a Georgian majority population until it was occupied by Russian forces and ethnically cleansed in the 1990s.

under international law this was an internal matter for Georgia

In the world of liberal interventionism, which I assume you support given your criticism of Obama as being a “disaster for the Western alliance and for the spread of democracy around the globe”, surely this of minor concern?

Following on from Trofim’s comments (including his faux pas at the end), I found Vanora Bennett’s book ‘Crying Wolf’ to be most illuminating. Bennett focuses on Chechnya, but she has some frank remarks on post-Soviet Russia, particularly racist attitudes towards ‘blacks’ (i.e. people from the Caucasus). She recalls two of her friends taking the mick out of Georgians (and the Abkhaz), and when she told them that Georgians nicknamed the Russians ‘Shapkas’ (a reference to fur hats), they were infuriated:

‘Shapkas? Us? They call us names?’
‘How rude of them!’.

Trofim, I have visited your country twice, and I have studied Russian history (well) and the Russian language (not so well), so I like to think I’m fairly well-informed about your country. Much as I liked the Russians I met, I can’t help thinking that you (and in particular your government) have a major problem with self-awareness. It is one thing to expect respect and understanding from the West and from your neighbours, but you will get neither by poisoning your dissidents in London; conducting cyber-war against Estonia; threatening to target Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine with nuclear missiles; and ultimately by pasting the Georgians. You will only turn people who want to be your friends into your enemies, and that is bad news for all of us.

The problem is Bush, Cheney, Brown, Miliband (perhaps soon Obama when he returns from Hawaii) and all the western world’s milieu have all stated condemnation of Russia without any scorn for Georgia. Even though Georgia’s government is ultra-nationalist and (as well mentioned in the post) growingly authoritarian and did in fact spark the war.

These individuals are not leaders expressing their view and weighing up the arguments, they’re puppets pulled by what is currently a united western policy. The “go against Russia” strategy is being pursued because Russia is actually seen as detrimental to western interests. Russia veto’d the Iraq war, is somewhat defending Iran from American invasion, is opposed to the placement of an anti-missile shield in Europe etc.

Georgia is defended because it could not even dream of being economically or politically detrimental to western power throughout the world. The current Georgian administration also wants to extend western power massively, by wanting to join NATO. So even further verbal defense of Georgia is provided.

If you still can’t see the strings look a little harder. All of the puppets are moving in perfect illogical union. There is no logic that would choreograph so many different individuals to an identical stance - other than naked and calculated geopolitical self-interest.

Q.E.D. David Miliband is not the messiah. He’s a very dirty politician.

But essentially this blog post made a good point.

Both Russia and Georgia acted improperly. Georgia began an attack. Russia escalated it.

Neither Tbilisi nor Moscow. But an end to global imperialism.

Some evidence of Miliband-the-mouthpiece at work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7557887.stm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080813/tuk-georgia-russia-conflict-britain-eu-a7ad41d.html

For all it’s manifest deficiencies and shortcomings, Russia is a great and deeply European culture, and we should be doing everything we can to acknowledge and build on our common interests. It’s enormously ironic that people of this country get all worked up about the Russian threat at the same time as Islam remorselessly extends its deadening influence over Europe and further afield. As was pointed out by a commentator in the Independent today, Bin Laden must be laughing his head off to see the kuffar arguing amongst themselves.

Very, VERY well put, although I might add that China also comes out a big winner here .

The West ( and I’m including Russia in that) had better wise up…and FAST!

The U.S. and Russia arguing over some tinpot ‘democracy’ that commits its own abuses and which has recently been downgraded by Freedom House is a bad joke, and a sign that neither have sufficient self-awareness to realise their increasing weakness and vulnerability vis à vis other world players.

See the clip of Bush and Putin arguing with each other in the *Bird’s Nest* during the opening ceremonies of the olympics to drive home this point.

Both seem joyously oblivious to China’s rising strength because both are STILL firmly locked in (handicapped by?) cold-war mode.

If China has developed the capabilities of putting on a war with all the precision and coordination with which it can put on an opening olympic ceremony, then we’re all in deep, deep caca

It’s degenerated to the point where the foreign policies of both the U.S. and Russia amount to no more than annoying and harrassing each other using proxy groups of jihadis, with only the latter gaining anything.

Russia taunts the West with Iran’s insane mullahs and The West taunts Russia with equally insane central asian jihadists…and such.

And while the cat’s away, the mice do play.

“If China has developed the capabilities of putting on a war with all the precision and coordination with which it can put on an opening olympic ceremony, then we’re all in deep, deep caca”

Especially if the war is computer generated and lip-synched by a nine year old girl?

Erm, which “central asian jihadists” would they be?

(yes, apart from Iran, there is one other Central Asian state, Tajikistan, that has..well, not jihadists, but islamists of a sort, in its government - as a, reasonably successful conclusion to the rather complex civil war - in which the islamists fought on the same side as the pro-russian and communist-sympathising elements - there that ended 11 years ago. And though Tajikistan hardly has the most agreeable government in the world, it’s hardly one that incites or supports any form of violent islam).

Apart from that…yes Hizb-ut-Tahrir has some support in the Ferghana Valley…which is a bit of a problem given the location of that specific region and the way that it’s divided between several states.

But beyond that, what?
I see oppressive secular, very renewed-Soviet authoritarian regimes, if not outright dictatorships, in almost all of the “Stans” (Kyrgyzstan is as ever a bit more ambiguous, although that has certainly become more authoritarian in the last year or so)

And Georgia, as I have repeatedly said, is far from being anything like what is understood in the west as a democracy. I’m no great supporter of Saakashvili (to say the least), but still think it’s pretty clear that his is the least objectionable Government that georgia has had (which may be to damn with faint praise, but considering his predecessors) - anything that Russia would wish to do with it would be immeasurably worse, more brutal, more oppressive, more soul-destroying.

I also think it eminently reasonable for the people of many parts of Eurasia and Eastern Europe to be worried about a strengthened aggressive Russia: while I am quite happy to be a part-time Russophile of sorts, I don’t have any doubt whatsoever than an expansionist Russia is both a far more serious threat to Europe, and one that is far more likely to come to pass, than any hypothetical menace originating from places further south or east, including iran.

I may be wrong, but didn’t Samuel Huntington posit that the Orthodox Christian world constituted a distinct civilisation, apart from the West.

As far as I can see (whether we are talking about Russia, Greece, Serbia or Romania) that would make a great deal of sense: the intellectual currents (and contemporary political trends - including, most certainly, in Greece) are really very different from the Catholic/post-christian protestant western world

I wish newsreaders would say “Zheeorzheea” instead of “Georgia.”

I keep thinking Russia has invaded Atlanta. Reminds me of Gone with the Wind.

Anyway, it’s difficult for our politicians to be taken seriously when we did much the same in Serbia over Kosovo. Also, US in Grenada & Panama.

We did much the same in Serbia over Kosovo”.
Trite and inaccurate Ecoman.

‘Supporters of Orthodox chauvinism attempt to muddy the waters by attempting an analogy between South Ossetia’s desire to cleave to the Rodina and Kosovan self-determination, casting Georgia in the role of the Serbian aggressor, contending that support for Kosovan independence logically translates to support for South Ossetian separatism from an oppressive Georgian state. Following their logic, this would require a retrospective adoption of the cause of Kosovan independence by supporters of Russian imperialism. Of course that will never happen. This ahistorical sleight of hand simply ignores the history and role of Russian imperialism in the affairs of the small nations on the borders of the former Russian Empire and Soviet Union. It also conveniently ignores pervasive racism and xenophobia against Georgians and other national minorities. It is the basest sort of hypocrisy — Russia will invade Georgia over Ossetian independence, but has killed countless thousands of Chechens to prevent their independence. If the feeble-minded really must draw facile comparisons, they should look to the example of a powerful well-armed state (Serbia/Russia) threatening a much smaller state (Kosova/Georgia) using the pretext of a very small minority (Kosova 5%, Georgia 2%) and blood-curdling rhetoric emanating from far-right pan-Slavic nationalists.’
http://www.marxist.org.uk/iwt/2008/08/10/autocracy-and-orthodox-chauvinism/

Especially if the war is computer generated and lip-synched by a nine year old girl?

Well, the real songbird had a fat, chubby face and crooked teeth, and so couldn’t be seen in public

Ceremonies aside, China’s economic and military strengths are increasing fast, and its penchant for scientific espionage means that it’s technological development is fast catching up with ours.

The only good thing one can say about China is that it traditionally hasn’t been big on invasions and foreign colonisations.

Erm, which “central asian jihadists” would they be?

Afganistan?

I know the Northern Alliance weren’t the Taliban, but that,s not really saying much since the difference between the two, in terms of islamist ideologies, is merely one of degree.

Using Islam as a stick with which to beat Russia has been a central plank ( but not the only one) of The West’s foreign policy strategies since the late 70s, and it’s a strategy that is proving suicidal to BOTH.

Our Balkan mission ( just substitute Serb for Russian) was similarly based, and is proving a disaster….Sarajevo once only 50% Muslim is now 80% so, with the Islam practiced there becoming more and more ‘Arab’ with each passing year.

We’re condemned to 1204 over and over again, aren’t we?

We don’t pay to waltz the jihadis, they just grab the money and then waltz us.

Wes Clarke’s illusions notwithstanding.

This is one of the better summaries of the apparent outcome of the last week’s adventures I’ve seen

http://www.rferl.org/content/Preliminary_Conclusions_From_The_War_In_Georgia/1190743.html

(of course, presuming that the reports that Russian tanks are heading towards Tbilisi are as untrue as I hope they are)

This is one of the better summaries of the apparent outcome of the last week’s adventures I’ve seen

http://www.rferl.org/content/Preliminary_Conclusions_From_The_War_In_Georgia/1190743.html

(of course, presuming that the reports that Russian tanks are heading towards Tbilisi are as untrue as I hope they are)

This is one of the better summaries of the apparent outcome of the last week’s adventures I’ve seen

(add w here) ww.rferl.org/content/Preliminary_Conclusions_From_The_War_In_Georgia/1190743.html

(of course, presuming that the reports that Russian tanks are heading towards Tbilisi are as untrue as I hope they are)

“As a Russian speaker and lover of its culture and people, what I find most depressing, and bewildering, about any reports of Russia as a nation is the predictable flood of automatic associations “threat, bear, aggressive, only respects strength, bully” and so on. My impression is that many of these commentators overwhelmingly obtain their knowledge and attitudes via English language sources. Some of these armchair experts have been to Moscow for a few days and had their picture taken in front of St Basil’s, thus becoming even more expert.”

OK - Let’s take a look at the record:

1. Russia dismembered Poland. Suppressed Polish nationalists and hanged them by the score.

2. Russia suppresses national cultures of people around its periphery. It persecutes non-Orthodox Christians.

3. It helps restore the reactionary system in Europe after the Napoleonic wars.

4. Its own people remain in semi-slavery until the 1860s.

5. Russia resists the advance of democracy.

6. Russia is the seat of the world’s first political totalitarian regime. It attempts to export is totalitarian politics to the whole world and succeeds in many parts of Asia, the Caribbean and Africa, bringing untold misery to those countries.

7. Post WW2 it keeps half of Europe in ideological and military chains. Whilst the other European empires divest themselves of their ill gotten gains, Russia refuses and clings on to its huge Empire.

8. With the collapse of Communism whilst the vast majority of newly independent states convert to democracy, Russia fails to make the transition, choosing instead an ex KGB man to run the country, who promptly (no surprise here) proceeds to dismantle democracy and attempts to reassert control over the old Empire.

The only thing propping up Russia at the moment is our thirst for its oil and gas.

Bad Ecology says:

I
wish newsreaders would say “Zheeorzheea” instead of “Georgia.”

I keep thinking Russia has invaded Atlanta. Reminds me of Gone with the Wind.”

What a prattish thing to say. Do you want them to say Paree for Paris, Roma for Rome, Lishbor(?) for Lisbon and Noo Yok for New York?

Well, it’s called Sakartvelo in Georgian (=Kartavelian) anyway (and “Gruziya” in Russian).

(Slight aside: if Saakashvili were to have been removed, their gorgeous national flag would surely have been changed, as, like the only other flag that independent Georgia has had, it’s the flag of the ruler’s party: the previous, cornelian red one was that of the Georgian Mensheviks)

With the collapse of Communism whilst the vast majority of newly independent states convert to democracy, Russia fails to make the transition, choosing instead an ex KGB man to run the country

What a silly point.

Just because Russia chooses a leader you dislike doesn’t mean it is not a democracy. Putin has far higher approval ratings than any western leader and multiples higher than Saakashvili.

Oh, and how much of the dumber end of the Russian media at the moment (or, more, earlier in the week) is on a “Send Saakashvili to The Hague” trip!

I keep thinking Russia has invaded Atlanta. Reminds me of Gone with the Wind.

You know one national broadcaster did get that mixed up. RTÉ hang your head in shame.

http://twentymajor.net/2008/08/10/surely-not/

I really couldn’t give a damn what Bin Laden finds funny, not do I think his sense of humour should determine Western foreign policy. Odd stuff

.Just because Russia chooses a leader you dislike doesn’t mean it is
not a democracy.

As such, that is true.

But if Russia is a democracy (OR even wants to be a democracy) I will eat my shapka (or even my ushanka). And then arrange a sushi date with leading members of the secret services.

Russia IS a democracy in that they vote for their leader and are happy enough with the leader they have. Go eat your Astrakan and prepare for fur balls.

Stuart, I hear tractor production has increased 100-fold for the 7th consecutive year too.

All hail sovereign democracy and the vertical of power!

(DO be careful with that sushi though)

Interestingly (according to novaya gazeta) that other democrat of the East Slavs, Batko Luka has made a speech today expressing the wish for Belarus (apparently) to improve its relations with the EU and the USA….clearly another success of Russian’s sensible foreign policy, if anything comes of it

Stuart, I hear tractor production has increased 100-fold for the 7th consecutive year too.

All hail sovereign democracy and the vertical of power!

(DO be careful with that sushi though.)

Interestingly (according to novaya gazeta) that other democrat of the East Slavs, Batko Luka has made a speech today expressing the wish for Belarus (apparently) to improve its relations with the EU and the USA….clearly another success of Russian’s sensible foreign policy, if anything comes of it

Stuart, I hear tractor production has increased 100-fold for the 7th consecutive year too.

All hail sovereign democracy and the vertical of power!

(DO be careful with that sushi though.)
Novaya Gazeta reports today that that other democrat of the East Slavs similarly loved by his nation, Batko Luka, has made a speech today expressing the wish for Belarus (apparently) to improve its relations with the EU and the USA.

clearly another success of Russian’s sensible foreign policy, if anything comes of it

So you think Putin is actually very unpopular? Any facts to back that assertion?

Putin has little in common with Luka, apart from an incipient comb-over that is…

Luka was a farm boss - hardly one of the siloviki really

Stuart, no, read what I wrote, I think Putin (who isn’t actually President anymore) is indeed rather popular. As indeed was the man who is about to be voted as the Greatest Russian in History on a nationwide TV poll (even if he were in fact Georgian and, I think, half-Ossetian)

If Russia has genuinely democratic institutions (like, say, the media, political parties, the judicial system, a constitution that is actually obeyed, vibrant local democracy, multi-party debate, balance of powers, or even a commitment to these sort of things - or even, say, like Georgia, a hypothetical commitment to them)…they are well hidden (as I’m sure you must know). They don’t seem even to need bothering much with Potemkin villages nowadays

The current Russian regime ( like most of its predecessors) is aggressive, authoritarian, nationalistic chauvanistic, paranoid.Yes, it has the popular support of the people because they traditionally appear to have a penchant for “strong” ( i.e. dictatorial) leadership. It combines a taste for subservience to authority whilst compensating for this by projecting a strong man image onto the rest of the world. Those pictures of the “rugged” bare chested Putin were designed to appeal to the Russian people. It worked. Imagine Bush or Blair doing the same thing. They’d have been laughed out of government. Stuart, the Russian government may be democratically elected but if you had to live under it , I bet you’d squeal like a stuck pig.

Well there is that…

I heard that Stalin vote was all a big fix, unless it is just pensioners who vote, which is probably true now I think about it…

the Russian government may be democratically elected but if you had to live under it , I bet you’d squeal like a stuck pig.

I spend a lot of time there each month and far from Moscow as well, and the present Government is a hell of a lot better than the last one and incomparably better than Soviet days. My squeals are fairly quiet as a result.

I generally agree with you Field, but not here.

1. Russia dismembered Poland. Suppressed Polish nationalists and hanged them by the score.

Poland was dismembered in three successive stages by Russia, Germany AND the Austro-Hungarian.

2. Russia suppresses national cultures of people around its periphery. It persecutes non-Orthodox Christians.

Ah but Russia’s supression of minority religions is nowhere near that of our “allies” in the war on terror, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

3.It helps restore the reactionary system in Europe after the Napoleonic wars.

But not before she chased that greasy Corsican midget back to where he belonged, and then subsequently occupied Paris.

4. Its own people remain in semi-slavery until the 1860s.

I Hope you’re not American.

5. Russia resists the advance of democracy.

Russia’s political culture, its political model, always has been, and still is, that of an authoritarian Central Asian Khanate. Don’t let the term “Czar” fool you.

6. Russia is the seat of the world’s first political totalitarian regime. It attempts to export is totalitarian politics to the whole world and succeeds in many parts of Asia, the Caribbean and Africa, bringing untold misery to those countries.

No, the totalitarian prize goes to ‘great Leader’ Mohammed whose followers export totalitarian wahabbist ideologies across the globe with the tacit approval of The West.

7. Post WW2 it keeps half of Europe in ideological and military chains. Whilst the other European empires divest themselves of their ill gotten gains, Russia refuses and clings on to its huge Empire.

Russia won WWII, and the last time I checked the rules-book, it said that those who win the war keep the spoils.

With the collapse of Communism whilst the vast majority of newly independent states convert to democracy, Russia fails to make the transition,

Most ex-Soviet republics are dictatorships and Russia’s elites ( and its people too, I suspect) are somewhat proud at having resurrected their Khanate.

Our duty should not be to challenge that archaic political form up front, but rather to tweak it, here,there and everywhere, until its human rights conditions and political structures are more in line with our own.

For those who pine inexorably for confrontation, the Islamic world will do quite nicely.

“5. Russia resists the advance of democracy.
Russia’s political culture, its political model, always has been, and still is, that of an authoritarian Central Asian Khanate. Don’t let the term “Czar” fool you.”

No khanate was ever anything like this. What the Russians have is a new Byzantium, the “Third Rome”, and they are proud of that heritage. That is the problem, not that they are Central Asian.

“4. Its own people remain in semi-slavery until the 1860s.
I Hope you’re not American.”

Well this is sloppy. Serfs were the majority of the polulation in Russia and slaves never were in the US. Furthermore serfdom was general in Russia while slavery was confined to specific states and the spread of slavery was THE political issue for a period of decades.

I spend a lot of time there each month and far from Moscow as well, and the present Government is a hell of a lot better than the last one and incomparably better than Soviet days.

Tell that to Garry Kasparov, or anyone not involved in oil and gas profiteering.

I think Kasparov would be somewhat worse off under Soviet rule. If you cannot see that you must know little of Russia’s history.

oil and gas profiteering

What do you mean? New Labour’s penchant for “windfall” taxes on the petroleum sector?

Yes John Palubiski, we know you would like the West to devote all its energies towards a massive crusade against the Mohammedan infidel.

Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware that Putin is doing a good job propping the Islamic theocracy in Tehran and encouraging nuclear proliferation throughout the Islamic world.

oil and gas profiteering

What do you mean? New Labour’s penchant for “windfall” taxes on the petroleum sector?

Keep on lining your pockets Stuart. What’s a bit of old-fashioned Russian imperialism when compared to licking Putin’s arse?

Putin is doing a good job propping the Islamic theocracy in Tehran and encouraging nuclear proliferation throughout the Islamic world

You nutter! What sort of dream world do you live in?

Keep on lining your pockets Stuart.

There is a little more to running a business in the oil sector than you seem to think. Don’t think too much about it when you fill your tank.

I think Kasparov would be somewhat worse off under Soviet rule. If you cannot see that you must know little of Russia’s history.

Kasparov had the time of his life under the soviet regime. No chance of him being beaten up and thrown in a louse infested prison back then.

In case you weren’t aware, Kasparov joined the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) in 1984, and in 1987 was elected to the Central Committee of Komsomol.

And if he had campaigned against the Soviet government they would have loved him even more!

Do you really believe that things were great in communisr Russia?

Well, I have to agree that Putin’s regime would be pretty much preferable, by almost any standards, to that of almost any Soviet-era leader.

“Propping up the Iranian theocracy”: hardly. Although there seems to be some dispute as to whether it is ultimately the UK, Israel, or Russia that is “the little Satan” in Iranian regime parlance, the fact it’s one of the credible options for the title is a bit of a clue.

“and encouraging nuclear proliferation throughout the Islamic world”

what? who? Are you confusing Russia with Pakistan (or North Korea) perchance?

(Well - actually one could credibly make a case that Russia - or elements of the Russian state - have done this, or something similar, through their dubious proxies in (a) “Republika Srpska” in Bosnia & H- - -nice line in selling weapons illegally to Saddam, (b) unlamented Kuchma’s Ukraine - ditto, plus a couple of cruise missiles to Iran and (c) “Pridnestroviye” or whatever the gangsters based in Tiraspol want to be known as this week - a nice big hotbed of weapons smuggling, including, allegedly, nuclear material. Although it might be fairer to point out that these regimes are made up of Bosnian Serbs, Ukrainians and Left Bank Moldovans…

Still, Stuart, you’re not up with the times, mate

your website says “The northern part of the peninsula is occupied by Koryak Autonomous Okrug”

That doesn’t exist any more: at least, not as a Federal Subject. (this is a very minor point in the scheme of things, but, still)

What sort of dream world do you live in?

Let’s see - the world that exists outside your enclave of Russian oil and gas barons. The problem with living in an autocratic state, Stuart, is that Putin’s press machine will never tell you what is happening in the real world.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article515899.ece
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47696
http://jihadwatch.org/archives/015052.php
ttp://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-449281/Saudis-Spearhead-An-Alliance-To.html

The northern part has gone? Its an island now? That explains a lot about the locals…

Have you visited Petropavlovsk? Its a beautiful time of year for bear hunting.

I have just been looking at the latest news and it shows a Russian army column of trucks and tanks apparently continuing to advance into Georgia. Would any of the Russian supporters here on this thread like to fill me in on why this is happening, assuming it is true?

Mrs Ben

Yes John Palubiski, we know you would like the West to devote all its energies towards a massive crusade against the Mohammedan infidel.

They’re not infidels, they’re the ignorant vicitms of a theocratic swindle.

Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware that Putin is doing a good job propping the Islamic theocracy in Tehran and encouraging nuclear proliferation throughout the Islamic world.

Im quite aware of Putin’s mischief in Iran, and condemn it in the strongest terms.

That said, what sayeth thou of our support for a nuclear armed Pakistan, three times a populous as Iran, and with a much larger contingent of whacked-out islamo-nutters?

Iran is indeed a mortal danger for Israel, but in the longer term Pakistan, a western creation, will be a major headache for the entire planet.

There are some islamists in Pakistan who are even more determined than their co-religionists in Iran to defeat the ‘great satan’.

Iran’s nuclear facitities should be wiped off the map, and Pakistan should be forced to hand over it’s stockpile of weapons before a few end up in the hands to seething Islamist freelancers living in The West.

If Pakistan is our ally, then I’m Maimie Van Doren.

What the Russians have is a new Byzantium, the “Third Rome”, and they are proud of that heritage. That is the problem, not that they are Central Asian.

Naw, that ‘Third Rome’ business only applies to Kievian Rus.

After the Tartars destroyed it in 1240 the paradigm changed with political power shifting from the steppe to the forest belt and with that ‘forest-belt’ power using the Tartar model of totalitarianism as its inspiration.

A khanate it is!

Well this is sloppy. Serfs were the majority of the polulation in Russia and slaves never were in the US. Furthermore serfdom was general in Russia while slavery was confined to specific states and the spread of slavery was THE political issue for a period of decades

Well, I’d want to be neither serf nor a slave, but at least the former was not quite as ‘low’ as the latter and, in the case of Russia, has the added merit of NOT being based on race.

Ah, Особенности национальной охоты! (Not a bad film - not least for a witty illustration of misperceptions and the misrepresentation of Russia both by foreigners and by Russia)

No, I’ve not been anywhere near that far east, yet…

Ah, Особенности национальной охоты! (Not a bad film - not least for a witty illustration of misperceptions and the misrepresentation of Russia both by foreigners and by Russia)

No, I’ve not been anywhere near that far east, yet.

Ah, Особенности национальной охоты.

(Not a bad film - not least for a witty illustration of misperceptions and the misrepresentation of Russia both by foreigners and by Russia)

No, I’ve not been anywhere near that far east, yet.

Go East young man. Not wanting to sound like John P. but Vladivostok has the best looking women in Russia.

Особенности национальной охоты

I liked the second one about fishing. Apparently there is a more recent one about politics. Is it any good?

Not seen it, no idea.

More beautiful than in Odesa? (Yes, I know that’s not Russia any more, but still). I find THAT hard to believe - I think you’ve been force-fed propaganda.

Odessa? Aren’t they all horny-handed daughters of the soil?

Dirndl-skirted peasant types?

stuart…

“I spend a lot of time there each month and far from Moscow as well, and the present Government is a hell of a lot better than the last one and incomparably better than Soviet days. My squeals are fairly quiet as a result”

That’s not the same as being a citizen who has to live under the regime. As a youth, I lived in the Shah’s Iran and I spent holidays in Franco’s Spain. I had a lovely time….which can’t be said for everybody there.

That’s not the same as being a citizen who has to live under the regime.

Of course, but most of my firm’s employees are Russians and they tell me that things are better than they remember previously. It is obviously not perfect, but having spent time there in the eighties, nineties and this decade, it is better for almost everybody. Pensioners were probably better off under the Soviets, but nobody else.

Quite….but I never said things were better under the Soviets. I don’t have an axe to grind with the Russians…except when they sabre rattle, come to my country and assasinate dissidents with Polonium, deliberately thwart the work of the British council in Russia ( and it’s russian emplyees), harass the British ambassador with Putins nasty little nationalist youth league etc etc ..oh and when hunt bears. A sure sign of moral degeneracy.

Quite….but I never said things were better under the Soviets. I don’t have an axe to grind with the Russians…except when they sabre rattle, come to my country and assasinate dissidents with Polonium, deliberately thwart the work of the British council in Russia ( and it’s russian emplyees), harass the British ambassador with Putins nasty little nationalist youth league etc etc

Yeah, I know, but they’ve yet to blow up subways or office towers full of innocent people, or to move to England by the millions only to insist YOU speak Russian and accommodate the wearing fur hats, in any and all situations, by chauvinistic Russian schoolgirls.

No, if only!

And as with China, we’ll all bitch about Russia’s human rights, only to turn right around and sign YET another lucrative business deal with ‘em.

Naw, that ‘Third Rome’ business only applies to Kievian Rus.

Only the Third Rome idea was only really picked up after the fall of Constantinople. It neatly coincided with the rise of Muscovy - part of the reason why the grand dukes took the title of Tsar.

Getting deep into ‘what if’ territory, but it’s a great pity that Nizhny-Novgorod lost out in its power struggle with Muscovy.

but it’s a great pity that Nizhny-Novgorod lost out in its power struggle with Muscovy.

Why? Its a horrible town. The best thing there is the GAZ factory.

No doubt it is now. But back in the Middle Ages it had a somewhat less authoritarian political culture than Muscovy, which might have set a better example for future Russian rulers.

I’m aware this is on a par with regretting that the Normans won the Battle of Hastings, but still…

Bill. wrong as usual when you stray off your specialist areas (lol)

Not Nizhny Novgorod, you mean (Veliki) Novgorod - another place entirely, a lot further north. Although I think the claims that it was a significantly less authoritarian polity are - well, pretty spurious

You may well be correct, Venichka, that I have criminally got my Novgorods confused. I am now gnashing my teeth in frustration. Just don’t you ‘lol’ me again, sonny, or you’ll regret it.

However, old Novgorod did have a much stronger mercantile/collegiate influence on its government, as opposed to Muscovy’s despotic style of rule, and that’s generally been a good first step towards a more liberal and democratic form of government. (Not that liberal democracy is an especially meaningful term in the context of late medieval Russia). More like the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon states than the feudal ones, if you see what I mean.

Stuart - you seem to be mixing up the Pearl Of the Black Sea with a bit of Bavaria.

I agree with the commentators who why is Russia bothering with Georgia as there are greater threats from Islamic republics and China than from a tinpot would be western ally on its western front. Is this Putin just flexing his muscles for the benefit of home consumption?

Incidentally I see latest reports say that the pipeline (part owned by BP of course) does not actually go through South Ossetia. Another reason maybe why Russian troops still seem to be advancing into Georgia?.

but even more puzzling - what are Chechens doing serving in the Russian forces (if reports are to be believed)? I would have thought Chechens, to a man and a woman (a few drugs and arms dealers excepted) would cut off their own ——- rather than serve under the Russians? Are they old enemies of Georgia?

Mrs Ben - yes it’s flexing muscles, but it’s a long grudge, both against Georgia (as a proud, ancient people that has generally always been resentful at being ruled by outsiders) in general, and against Saakashvili (in power since, de iure, January 2004, de facto a few months earlier) in particular.

brief moderately representative examples: 2001 just after 9/11 Putin makes speech describing Georgia as the “second biggest nest of terrorism in the world, after Afghanistan”. The context to this is that there were some Islamic fighters - mostly Arab jihadis - involved in the Chechen conflict who were training in a lawless gorge, not the Kodori, another one whose name I forget, in Northern Georgia. Later on US troops had a big role in removing them. And the writ of the Georgian government has NEVER covered large areas of the country, even outside South Ossetia, Abkhazia (and until 2004 Ajaria)

early 2003 - at time of Iraq war the RUssian media is rife with speculation to the effect that “We (Russia) have allowed the US to invade Iraq: in return they will allow us to invade Georgia” - note this is before a pro-Western regime is in charge of Georgia: note too it’s ages before the final status (if it is that) of Kosovo has been determined. Again, ostensible reason

mid-2006 loads of journalists and media types interested in RUssia/the CIS (which it must be said Georgia only very reluctantly joined in late 1993, two years later than almost all of the other states, essentially as part of the peace settlement in Abkhazia) receive a document in English that purports to be a psychological profile of Saakashvili, prepared by a number of European mental health institutions. Accuses him of inter alia directing porn movies when a young man, and of being a egotistical narcissist who is unable to take orders. Pure Soviet-style attempt to smear (the text is available to download as a PDF via Economist journalist Edward Lucas’s yahoo group)

re. Chechens. It’s complicated. There are pro-RUssian Chechens as well as anti-Russian ones (it’s not quite the same as fighters in Afghanistan constantly swapping sides - but something not entirely a world away from that). In the 1990s prominent Chechen separatist leaders fought (effectively on the Russian side) for Abkhazia to separate from Georgia. (Had Abkhazia been attached to Russia I have no idea what stance they would have taken) There has also been speculation - for at least two years now - that Chechen fighters loyal to Ramzan Kadyrov (Putin’s henchman now President of Chechnya) would enter Georgia (South Ossetia) to fight against Georgia (which seems odd, as the Ossetians have if anything been harsher rivals of the Chechens than arguably even the Russians). It’s complicated. (I also think you may be deluding yourelf if you think only a few Chechens are arms and drug dealers..)

The BTC pipeline does run close to Tbilisi.

Putin takes a page from Milosevic; while his puppet President proclaims Russia’s accptance of a cease-fire, Russian troops continue to advance in Georgia proper among reports of ethnic Georgians being forced to flee by the South Ossetian militia, who are also according to one report separating Georgian men and boys from other Georgian refugees. Read “Defiant Russia rolls into key Georgia City” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/13/world/main4346576.sthml

Let there be no doubt that Russia under Vladimir I, Czar of all the Russians, has reverted to its tradition policy of agressive empire building. The West may not be able to help Georgia directly, but by taking steps such as expelling Russia from the G-8 and bringing Ukraine, Putin’s next target, into NATO, we can stop Putin’s attempts to restore the Third Rome to its former Imperial Glory.

Stuart -

You say:

“Russia IS a democracy in that they vote for their leader and are happy enough with the leader they have. Go eat your Astrakan and prepare for fur balls.”

Just as you can have an elected monarchy, so you can have an elected dictatorship. Doesn’t make it a democracy.

You can’t have a democracy in a country where the political elite can organise the murder of political opponents with impunity, pursue legal vendettas against opponents, and crush anyone who attempts to speak out in newspapers or other media against the dictatorship.

Putin may be the genuine choice of Russians. So what?

By your logic there is nothing wrong with the institution of slavery as long as people freely choose to put themselves in bondage.

The essential feature of a democracy is that you really can change the government, that there is free debate and there is a free vote. None of these apply in Putin’s Russia.

If you have trouble with the link, either google in quotes the story’s headline, “Defiant Russia …” etec or just click CBS news online at http://www.cbsnews.com and then click on their Georgia story.

Most heartening news is that the Presidents of Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia and the Ukraine all flew into Georgia on Tuesday to appear at a rally with President Saakashvili in Tbilisi. Poland’s President Lech Kaczyniski said, “The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face.” Google the Wednesday Washington Post story’s headline, “Moscow Agrees to Georgia Truce” for the whole article.

One distinction “liberal” bloggers don’t seem to see is clear. Russia wants to maintain alliances through intimidation, i.e. Georgia and Ukraine. Whereas, the US prefers alliances through choice, i.e. NATO, Japan, Korea, and arab Perian Gulf states, etc.

I don’t care who wins the election, or I’m perhaps slightly for McCain, because Obama talks about the merits of diplomacy but he and his supporters are also afraid of strong diplomatic efforts.

Recall the last president we had who advocated the moral superiority of diplomace, Carter. He had the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Iran Iraq war on his watch, neither of which he did much of anything to avert.

Seumas Milne has yet another pitiful piece in the Gruiniard today blaming…guess who! the US for the whole situation and exonerating Russia.

Par for the course you might say.

But in the comments stopperdom has achieved new heights of stupidity. From well-knpw stopper nut “MerkinOnParis”:

“It seems that American and Israeli forces were also at work in the attempted ethnic cleansing in Ossetia.”

Yep, its all the fault of those pesky Jooooooosssss……

The previous height of stopper idiocy was when they tried to claim that the Baii Bombing (October 2002) was caused by the Iraq Liberation (April 2003).

We expect that sort of thing from Milne, but I didn’t expect the stuff Gene served up in this post. I’ve written a longer post on this tendency here.

I have to say that I find almost every word of Gene’s post to be fair, reasoned and demonstrating sound judgement.

I found Gene’s choice of target bizarre under the circumstances.

More Obama v McCain bat and ball over Georgia here.

So has Russia pulled out of Georgia proper or not, the ministry says it has, the photos and photographers (published in the The Guardian) say not?

Any pro Russians care to comment which is true and if the Russians are staying in Georgia (not South Ossetia) would they care to justify this?

These two sources
http://georgiamfa.blogspot.com/
and
http://civilgeorgia.blogspot.com/
(particularly the latter: its by an organization that has a good record in monitoring elections in Georgia, and is far from syncophantically pro-government)

strongly suggest that Russian troops are still in Georgia at the moment

These two sources
georgiamfa.blogspot.com/
and
civilgeorgia.blogspot.com/

(particularly the latter: its by an organization that has a good record in monitoring elections in Georgia, and is far from syncophantically pro-government)

strongly suggest that Russian troops are still in Georgia at the moment

I’ll admit that Gene’s post is not as twisted as some of Andrew Sullivan’s recent posts. To read him you’d be forgiven for thinking it was McCain who invaded Georgia. And Russia, he writes, is not a global expansionist power anymore. How big does it have to be to qualify as global? And why is global a relevant test? And how the hell is Russia’s action not expansionist?

Just watched Al-Jeezeera live video footage (with a Scottish reporter) of the Russians still in Georgian territory (Gori and on road to Tiblisi )- contrary to Russian claims that they have withdrawn. See it here

http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn

Don’t know if anyone else has posted this yet, but it seems that an American journalist who visited South Ossetia in May of this year discovered the real reason for Shameless Milne’s kneejerk defence of Russia’s neo-colonial act of aggression.

Fascinating reading it makes too (hat-tip – Michael J Totten)

http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/

The essential feature of a democracy is that you really can change the government, that there is free debate and there is a free vote. None of these apply in Putin’s Russia.

Your points are well taken and you are quite correct.

But is democracy universal, in that ALL peoples desire it as the highest political ideal?

The probleme with Russia is that its political culture and its populace worship order, social order, social and political stability, over and above all else.

That is their ‘democratic’ ideal.

Russian politics revolves around an order/chaos equation. Whoever manages to IMPOSE order, even ruthlessly, is considered a good leader.

Russia’s culture may be deeply european, having its origins in the Roman/Byzantine world, but its politics and its political culture are clearly asian.

Putin’s inner circle may be composed of blond, blue-eyed europeans, but to judge by its tone, its tactics and its objectives, it is nonetheless, and I say this without any malice or bigotry, a council of Huns

a council of Huns

I must have missed the Orange Sashes draped over the Kremlin then.

(a joke that possibly only Ven and myself will ever get)

Herr Ribbentrop says to forget about the old borders of Czechslovakia. The Sudentenland belongs to the Reich! Seig Heil!

Actually Czar Vladimir’s foreign minister says to forget about Georgia’s old borders. Abkhazia and South Ossertia belongs to Mother Russia. Meantime Russian troops and their South Ossertian militia allies advance deeper into Georgia. See “Russia:Forget about Georgia’s Old Borders” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/14/world/main4349687.shtml

Morgoth, the Orange Sashes refer to what’s worn by the Northern Irish Protestants who are members of the dominate Orange Order.
Do not however get the joke.

See 2 and 3 David…

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hun

No idea who the hell ‘Old Labour’ is, or why s/he is using a link to our website, but s/he has no connection to marxist.org.uk.