Harry’s Place

Classic Milne. It’s all there.

Neocons? Check.
Israel? Check.
Iraq? Check.
CIA? Check.

In a sane world, this would be laughed at as the paranoid ramblings of a delusional twit.

Lots of old Trots may have become neocon crazies, but one has become Peter Hitchens. And lots of old Straight Left types may have become neocon crazies (you certainly know who you are on here), but one has become Seamus Milne.

Cheney and Company are blameless in all of this, Brett. Course they are, dear. Medvedev should just have left his citizens to be burnt out of their homes, Brett. Course he should, dear. America and Britain would have welcomed Canadian or Irish accession to the Warsaw Pact, Brett. Course they would, dear.

Anyway, what will you all do, not about South Ossetia, not about Abkhazia, not even about Transnistria (although remember that name), but about Nagorno-Karabakh?

You are dependent on Christian votes, especially in the United States, although seventy-two per cent of Britons are Christians and that figure is typical of Western Europe; it is just that the etiquette of these things is different on the Old World.

And you pose as the bulwarks against Islam when they are not in fact any such thing, supporting or having supported in every way the causes of Islamic secession in Bosnia, Kosovo and Chechnya; being closely allied to Pakistan and to the Gulf monarchies, not least including Wahhabi Arabia; having created an Islamist insurgency where there had been none in Iraq, and threatening to do the same thing in Syria; sucking up to the once and (near) future Caliphate of Turkey, which is itself behind the attempted Islamic secession in the north of Cyprus; and promoting an economic system which depends on mass migration from the Islamic world to the West.

So, what on earth will you do when (as might very well now happen this year, before Bush leaves office) a section of the first people, as such, ever to become Christian follows the Bosnian and Kosovan precedent in reverse, and declares independence from an Islamic country, rather than an Islamic enclave declaring independence from a Christian country?

What will they do when the Republika Srpska follows suit?

What will they do when both are backed by Russia, the real historic bulwark of the Biblical-Classical synthesis that is the real Western civilisation?

And why?

Oh, and there’s this paean to the former Soviet Union -

The long-running dispute over South Ossetia - as well as Abkhazia, the other contested region of Georgia - is the inevitable consequence of the breakup of the Soviet Union. As in the case of Yugoslavia, minorities who were happy enough to live on either side of an internal boundary that made little difference to their lives feel quite differently when they find themselves on the wrong side of an international state border.

Yes, what a wonderful world it was when everyone lived together in one glorious state, marching perfectly in unison towards the only true goal of human society - glorious world communism!

Twat.

“the whole “Israel and/or America is behind it” was typical loony-conspiracy fair.”…as in the coconut shy? If Seamus Milne supports it it is obviously typical loony-conspiracy fare.
It’s interesting how many one-time tankies turn out to be fans of Russian revanchism. It can’t have anything to do with any fantasies of socialism; just that they may be corrupt murderous kleptocrats but they’re antiAmerican corrupt murderous kleptocrats led by an exK.G.B. man.

Transnistria

- Although unrecognized by the internationally community, Pridnestrovie is nevertheless a sovereign state under international law. The small country, which is popularly but incorrectly known as Transnistria, meets the requirements for statehood with a permanent population, territory, government and the capacity to engage in foreign relations with other states, if they want to do so.

More nauseating yet:
ww.tiraspoltimes.com/news/merry_christmas_says_transnistria_and_tiraspol_times.html

We’re awaiting Seumas to adopt our mysticism and cults of Henry Ford and Josef Stalin (who we forgive for being Georgian as he served the Rodina)

“Unipolar domination of the world has squeezed the space for genuine self-determination and the return of some counterweight has to be welcome.”

Y’see, things were much better in ‘56 and ‘68 (and ‘51 and ‘79 and ‘81). I’m sure all those Hungarians and Czechs (and East Germans, Afghans and Poles) were deeply relieved that they weren’t living in an era of “unipolar domination”.

On another point, the devastation of Stalin’s childhood home, Gori, must be bittersweet for a tankie like Shameless.

I can’t help thinking that it would have been what the old monster would have wanted.

This response seems to be a wide spectrum disorder, with Milne & Co. representing only the far extreme. Good editorial in today’s Washington Post: Blaming Democracy.

As for ravings about “Medvedev should just have left his citizens to be burnt out of their homes”, the NY Times reports that Human Rights Watch is having trouble finding anything like the figure of 2,000 civilian victims of the Georgian military that Russia keeps repeating:

Meanwhile, investigators began to look into allegations of atrocities committed in the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, where the war erupted on Aug. 8. Human Rights Watch reported that researchers witnessed “terrifying scenes of destruction” in four deserted ethnic Georgian villages, and said they the villages had been looted and burned by South Ossetian militias.

“If the Russian government continues to claim that 2,000 people were killed as the result of the conflict, it’s time to provide some evidence, it’s time to provide some data, name, age, gender, the circumstances of death,” Ms. Neistat said.

When it comes to support for the Soviet Union, well, I don’t want to bring up Straight Left again…

But British neoconservatism combines the unrepentant old Stalinism of the neoconservatism in Eastern Europe with the unrepentant old Trotskyism of the mothership neoconservatism in the United States, so we get plenty of both on here. And the Russia-hating (and China-hating) old Trots are certainly out in force. (What, one wonders, about the Portuguese neocons, such as the present President of the European Commision, who are unrepentant old Maoists?)

And come on now - if we must be so active in the Caucuses, then which side will you (it should have been “you” throughout in my previous comment, sorry) be on in Nagorno-Karabakh? And why?

Milne is a serious weirdo. I saw him on SKY news reviewing the papers one day and he looked like a dietting vegan. I was expecting some working class red type and instead he was more public school boy of the Burgess variety . What a freak.

the Russia-hating (and China-hating) old Trots are certainly out in force

If your kids won’t eat something, smother it in garlic butter. Works a treat.

it is that love of Tanks

big macho tanks, rolling into Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Georgia 2008

seems like a retro form of admiration, where liberation is seen to come in the shape of either Soviet or Russian tanks

and if people get killed as a result then the likes of Milne and co aren’t too troubled, he’s far enough away and could always find some tortuous Kronstadtian justification

Milne’s comment “minorities who were happy enough to live on either side of an internal boundary that made little difference to their lives” is priceless. The second half is true - both sides of the internal boundary were equally ghastly, so there was little difference to be had. But that makes the first half false - few were “happy” to live on either side of the boundary. That, as much as anything else, is why the sodding soviet empire broke up.

On a more realistic note, it’s hard to understand why the west doesn’t punish Russia by totally fucking its economy. It’s really dirt poor (Putin’s home town of St Petersburg, that he lavished so much money on, is for the most part more decrepit than, say, Bradford, and certainly functions much worse). If it weren’t for its nukes, it would be an irrelevance. In fact, I think that’s the retaliatory plan.

Milne, George Galloway and all the other old Stalinists must really be having orgasams as the Russian tanks roll deeper into Georgia and Czar Vladimir’s Foreign Minister declares in effect that Russia will annex Abkhazia and South Ossetia. See “Russia:Forget about Georgia’s Old Borders” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/14/world/main4349687.shtml

Unipolar domination of the world has squeezed the space for genuine self-determination and the return of some counterweight has to be welcome

Eh? I thought it was the disappearance of the “counterweight” USSR that actually opened up opportunities for self-determination?

What a bizarre fantasy land Milne lives in.

As far as the Abkhazizns were concerned they didn’t “ive on either side of an internal boundary that made little difference to their lives”. Stalin sent most of the to Siberia, which would have made a pretty drastic difference to their lives, if they lived to get there.

Look it is really quite simple Milne is a complete and utter twat with spittle inside his skull. He is hardly worth worrying about, aside from the fact that there are many people who think Milne’s ideas have merit. Usually they are lecturers in second rate poly’s and FE colleges. Andrew Anthony’s book the “The Fall-Out” gets Milne right when on 13 September 2001 Milne wrote that the US had not “got it” when it came to the reasons behind 9/11. Anthony, who knows the timings of writing the columns in newspapers worked out that Milne probably wrote his column about 24 hours after the attacks.

The man is a walking penis.

Juan Cole is saying something similar. Surprise, surprise.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/08/14/bush_putin/print.html

Milne is reliably wrong about anything that matters, almost without exception.

Danish Cartoonist, it’s no surprise to me whatsoever that the Russians were blatantly lying about the death toll in S. O. (Indeed, it would have been incredible had they not been. Sometimes I wonder if the members of the Russian govt start to believe their own lies). That HRW report can not be circulated widely enough ,given the extent to which Russian lies (and stories derived from them) have been repeated uncritically

[quite apart from the impact that they had among the South Ossetians in inciting violence against ethnic Georgians resident in the region]

(that said, I think comparing this to 1956 or 1968 isn’t quite right, as the Georgian side are themselves far from blameless)

He has also developed a strong hatred of those ex islamists who renounced the terrorism, racism and genocidal ambitions of AQ and others

Ed Hussein is a constant target of Milnes

What conclusion should we draw from that?

‘blaming democracy’ indeed. is that the same democracy that saw Musharaff to power?

Modernity and David All, Harry’s is the wrong Place to have a go at old tank-loving Stalinists who supported the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and indeed Afghanistan…

And anyway, what do you think that you are, cheering on the tanks as they roll into Afghanistan (again) and Iraq, and willing them into Iran, Syria, and heaven knows where else, even including Russia? Thank God that it isn’t going to happen.

Now come on, I am determined to get an answer to this one. When (not if, and sooner rather than later), Nagorno-Karabakh does a Kosovo, backed up to the hilt by Russia, which side will you be on, and why?

We’re willing tanks into Syria?

Minoan - “I was expecting some working class red type and instead he was more public school boy of the Burgess variety.” He is an ex-public school boy - Winchester. If he didn’t spend his formative years getting mercilessly bullied I’ll eat my hat and undercrackers.

IMHO Armenia is more likely to be backed up to the hilt by the Islamic Republic of Iran than it is by Russia in the event that the “NKR” attempts to secede from Azerbaijan

(which is actually something I find quite delightful, both because it will confound those who take the “clash of civilisations” approach, and because of the poisonous - but oh so dangerously well-intentioned elements in the west - who love to demonise both Iran and Russia and would love to isolate or attack both of them at one time or another)

There’s a good analysis of this stuff at Lenin’s place:

http://leninology.blogspot.com

You get analysis, with 70% less moralising!

Maybe Milne is just a closet jihadist. It would not surprise me.

I will give him one thing though, he is as reliable as a Swiss train. Something goes awry in the world and Milne will immediately arrive to deliver some anti-American drivel to the readers of “Tax Dodge Daily”.

Maybe justice will prevail and he’ll get some incurable disease that can only be treated in the US.

Actually, the Guardian had an earlier article that sensibly blamed the Georgian aggression on the true culprit, the Soviet Union [oops] Russia, and that because the silly EU-nuchs had dithered about putting Georgia & the Ukraine on the short-list plan for NATO membership. Putin sensed weakness and like the dwarfish feral brute that this ex-KGB terror-czar is, pounced on the opening day of the Olympics, when everyone would be pre-occupied. While GWB was rooting for the US swimmers, Putin was plotting the demolition of the birthplace of his 20th c. predecessor-clone, Djugashvili.

I keep reminding myself that the Guardian has a large quotient of mindless leftover Stalinist/Marxist automatons among their readership and the sensible article had to be balanced with nonsense from “Shameless Sham” Milne.

No mention is made by the Marxist Mr. Milne of the BTC pipeline threatened by the Soviet [oops] invasion which serves as the only outlet of Central Asian oil & gas—otherwise, the EU-nuchs are perfect energy hostages of the laughably-named Friendship Pipeline from Czar Putin. Just where Milne would want the EU-nuchs to be.

Milne is a perfect example of the UK’s descent into mindless Londonistan vassal status.

There’s a good analysis of this stuff at Lenin’s place:

Satire, or mistimed April fool?

Satire, or mistimed April fool?

Neither.

It seems to have been posted in all seriousness.

Baffling.

I think articles like this from Milne - so full of spin and Russian imperialist propaganda that is contradicted else where in the Guardian - are really about satisfying a feeling. He wants to make those who have now found out why the people of eastern Europe want Nato to protect them against Russia to feel better about supporting Russian aggression against them. It’s all for a greater cause, etc.

Public opinion in Ukraine is decidedly not in favour of joining NATO (and doing so would not help ease the regional divisions in that land)

Just imagine if there was no US in the world and the likes of corrupt and fascistic Russia was the main super power, totally unchecked.

Scary thought for Europe in particular.

Ven, this is false. They clearly voted for a government that’s stated aim is to join Nato.

I have disagreed with almost every editorial Milne has written, but on this issue I am not so sure…

I believe Georgia (rather than the US or Israel) has been culpable of great folly in provoking Russian aggression with a woefully misguided attempt to regain South Ossetia.

America has encourage Georgia to join and expandind NATO. Georgia, in principle, has every right to join NATO, but in the chill world of realpolitik, this has been seen as provocation to a rather paranoid Russia and in the final analysis the Western democracies lack the military stretch, and the political will to defend Georgia’s territorial integrity.

And the baleful precedence of the creation of Kosovo now allows Russia, China and other regional powers to support the secession of statelets anywhere that undermine their political and economic rivals. Decades from now policy-makers will still be regretting the creation of Kosovo.

”Willing tank’s into Iran, Syria and heaven knows where else, even including Russia”

Thats some powerful magic you got there

I don’t know where i stand on this.

This is Russia’s version of Kosovo, in a way.

And Kosovo, despite the enthusiastic yeah sayers claiming it’d be a *one off* affair, is now becomming a model for other similar situations

If a region of Georgia wants to separate in the same way Kosovo seceeded from Serbia, then what can anyone do?

My worry here is that The West will once again be needlessly pitted against Russia, a situation the tenors of a world caliphate would certainly welcome.

China and the ‘caliphate gang’ are our true enemies, but the fact the former provides all our manufactured goods and the latter our energy, means that we won’t see that, and that we’ll continue to feed both, stengthening both, while we sap our energies sparring with those who are actually our allies.

The bottom line is now our enemy because most profits these days are dependant on deals and alliances with interests that ultimately seek our destruction.

The economic interests of a few, and a very powerful few they be, are diametrically opposed to the long term safety and security of our entire civilsation.

David Lindsey
Isn’t it just an amazing conincidence that the Russian 52nd Army was sat a few miles inside Russia, armed and fuelled and that there were regiments of helicopter gunships and tactical fighters that just…happened to be there……from the notoriosuly immobile Russian Army…….. What a stroke of luck.

Now I don’t doubt that the Georgians are no angels and that this is a long running ethnic dispute BUT isn’t it just as likely (if not more) that rather then the CIA/MOSSAD stirring things up, it was the Russians via their South Ossetian proxies who did the stirring. The hothead Georgians took that bait and handed Putin his causus belli on a plate?????

The Russians know the Marines aren’t going to land and they want to re-assert their power over what they see as still the Russian/Soviet Empire whilst they have an overstretched US safely out of the way with a President and VP that no-one would cross the road to piss on if they were on fire.

That would all seem to be a lot more likely then Milnes fantasism - he really does think like a left wing Tom Clancey. And he is just as shit*.

*To be fair to Tom Clancy his books are the best emergency cat litter that money can buy.

Russia’s arming of racist South Ossetian militias, which are like the prods of Ireland, and allowing them to attack Georgia started the conflict. That’s totally at odds with a peace keeping role and very stupid considering they are the former imperial power.

We must stand with the people of eastern Europe against such aggression.

This is not the time to turn our backs on those brave countries that want to intergrate into the international system and allow Russia to send them back to authoritarianism and seize total control over our gas supples in western Europe.

Surely a key problem with expanding NATO to Georgia is that, unlike the other members, if the Russians invade again can you see Belgian, Spanish, Italian etc etc etc legions marching to Istanbul and then Tblisi? No, neither can I.

Am all for small nations banding together to protect themselves - that is, after all NATO’s primary role these days BUT if we risk overstretch politically then it could render those treaty committments useless as members won’t march…..

I am more then alittle concerned as to what happens next time this happens.

This is a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression“.

I find this to be Antisemitic since he deliberately avoided giving credit to Israel/Zionists/Jews for this one!

Just imagine if there was no US in the world and the likes of corrupt and fascistic Russia was the main super power, totally unchecked.

Scary thought for Europe in particular.

Russia isn’t a threat to Europe, you worry for nothing.

Islam is the biggest threat to Europe, and yet you import millions of muslims, a goodly proportion of whom are radcalised, and you push for the entry of Turkey, a country that is sliding back into sharia, into The European Union.

That may create vast personal fortunes for a lucky few, but it’ll eventually result in Europe’s total demise.

Actually, I take back what I said. Islam isn’t Europe’s enemy; Europe is Europe’s biggest enemy

A lot of bluster and insults from Brett, but no real rebuttal of Milne’s arguement.

You don’t need to share Milne’s politics to understand that

a) the US is attempting to push the boundries of NATO right up to Russia’s borders,
b) No great power would welcome military encirclement,
b) Georgia embarked on a war of choice, miscalculated, and got burned,
c) the US almost certainly gave Sakashvili the green light (they have 200 military advisors embedded in the Georgian army), and then hung him out to dry went it went belly-up.

Now, one can choose to support Georgia and the USA, or South Ossetia and Russia, or nobody if you prefer. But to dismiss the interests and role of the US and NATO in this conflict as some kind of conspiracy theory is frankly bizarre, and suggests that Brett is completely clueless about the reality of geo-politics.

The sense in which this war may be about US expansion, is that a (paranoid?) Russian leadership feels itself getting hemmed in by Nato, and is doing this to push back and show its neighbours who the daddy is. This is not the same thing as it being the US’ “fault”. I’m in no position to evaluate these arguments, but I found this Stratfor article interesting. Recommended to me by a Russian friend.

Zin

A) the US is attempting to push the boundries of NATO right up to Russia’s borders,

Possibly Georgia wants protection from Ma’Bear?

B) No great power would welcome military encirclement,

True, but if a sovereign nation wants to join the EU and NATO, what the Feck has it to do with Russia?

b) Georgia embarked on a war of choice, miscalculated, and got burned,

Georgia got suckered into it, the muppets. Played like a fiddle.

c) the US almost certainly gave Sakashvili the green light (they have 200 military advisors embedded in the Georgian army), and then hung him out to dry went it went belly-up.

That I don’t doubt. Will the US try to stop law enforcement in Georgia? They might have councelled against it though, we don’t know.

If you deny Russia’s desire for a return to its asian hegemony then you are pretty clueless about geo-politics.

which are like the prods of Ireland,

Ahem.

I wonder if a writer or politician from the 19th century period of “The Great Game” travelled through time to now might not dismiss the current geo-political situation as “business as usual.”

When the arguments about Iraq were raging i could see both sides of the argument and thought HP were overdoing it a little about these leftist types, well meaning but wrong i thought.

However, with this they have showed themselves up to be the mindless anti western trolls they really are.

the funny thing is for anti imperialist there not very good at recognizing it in action

Russia isn’t a threat to Europe, you worry for nothing.

If would be if it wasn’t for the US. That’s the point.

M o r g o t h @ 14 August 2008, 5:07 pm

“We’re willing tanks into Syria?”

Of course. Syrian Tanks, when they left Lebanon.

I’m surprised he didn’t manage to work in the fact it was over Georgia (whose independence under the Mensheviks he supported and against which Stalin organised an invasion) that Lenin (the real one - not that twat with the website) fell out with Stalin for the last time and which caused him to write that letter demanding Stalin be removed from the general secretaryship.

I’m sure I remember that Seamus Milne was Editor of “The New Worker” when the most pro-Soviet elements left the historic Communist Party of Great Britain and founded the New Communist Party.

A lot of bluster and insults from Brett, but no real rebuttal of Milne’s arguement.

One doesn’t rebut dogshit; one scoops it up and throws it in the dustbin. It is disappointing that we keep paying this cretin any attention; even more so that he seems to have spawned idiots on this thread excreting the same dogshit.

You don’t need to be George Bush to understand that:

i) Georgia has no designs on Russian sovereign territory; but rather Russia has invaded, plundered, bombed, and reaped destruction on the internationally recognised sovereign territory of a neighbour.

ii) Under international law this was an internal matter for Georgia, just as Chechnya was for Russia.

iii) Russia has invaded, bombed, and destroyed the infrastructure of Georgian territory outside of South Ossetia, and invented Ossetian casualty figures as a mask, as HRW are now revealing.

iv) that Russia’s ambition is to annex territory south of the Caucasus so that it has a monopoly over oil/gas distribution from the Caspian basin.

v) that Russia has its eye on the annexation of territory in various other states in eastern Europe, including the Crimea (v. Ukraine), Transnistria (v. Moldova), and the baltic states.

vi) that sovereign democratic nations should be free to join whatever international organisations they so wish without fear of invasion from a totalitarian expansionist state, particularly one which subjugated and misruled them for centuries.

vii) the idea this conflict was encouraged by the US is completely barmy when one considers the sheer punyness of the tiny Georgian military, the fact that US troops are already severely overstretched, and the damage it does to more serious issues such as resolving the Iranian nuclear problem.

Keep on tossing yourselves Stalinist imbeciles.

If people want to make a point againt the US/west/Georgia then that’s fine, but the way Milne just propandises for everything Russia is doing is sickening. You just don’t have to do that.

Zin

Why all this rattling about the inadvisiability of NATO membership for countries bordering the former Soviet Union? It is the FORMER
Soviet Union after all. Why shouldn’t these countries join NATO? For fairly obvious reasons given what is going on in Georgia right now, if I was an Estonian or a Pole or a Czech looking towards Europe for my future prosperity, it would make sense to be a member of NATO, I wouldn’t need any pushing from the US.

But let us take it at face value and assume the Russians only went in to protect their citizens in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Why have they now advanced further into the country accompanied by Chechens and South Ossetians Irregulars who are commiting local atrocities while the Russians destroy the Georgian infrastructure.

Human Rights Watch says they can find no evidence of the numbers of casualties in South Ossetia supposedly inflicted by the Georgians. So what are the Russians doing invading an independent soverign state, blocking communications and damaging its infrastructure now they have secured what were supposed to be their objectives, humanitarian assistance to their citizens?

Alan Ji - “I’m sure I remember that Seamus Milne was Editor of “The New Worker” when the most pro-Soviet elements left the historic Communist Party of Great Britain and founded the New Communist Party”

But they didn’t all leave.

Did they, Harry…

This is priceless

http://www.newstatesman.com/europe/2008/08/georgia-russia-ukraine-cheney

Superpower swoop

Misha Glenny

Published 14 August 2008

‘But under the influence of an energetic neo-con lobby in Washington, and with considerable support from Israeli weapons manufacturers and military trainers, Saakashvili and the hawks around him came to believe the farcical proposition that Georgia’s armed forces could take on the military might of their northern neighbour in a conventional fight and win.

The Georgian minister for reintegration of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Temur Yakobash vili, revealed the depth of the illusion the day after the conflict broke out when he thanked Israel for its assistance in training Georgian troops. “Israel should be proud of its military, which trained Georgian soldiers,” Yakobashvili said, with reference to Defensive Shield, the private company run by Gal Hirsch, a former general in the Israel Defence Forces.

Still unaware of what was really happening on the battlefield, Yakobashvili reported that a small group of Georgian soldiers had been able to wipe out an entire Russian military division, thanks to the Israeli training. “We killed 60 Russian soldiers yesterday alone,” he said. “The Russians have lost more than 50 tanks, and we have shot down 11 of their planes. They have sustained enormous damage in terms of manpower.”‘

Ha ha ha ha ha. You couldn’t make it up!

Who is this prick david lindsay? His inane blog contains a series of drunken national socialist rants and links to far-right conspiracy clowns like Laughland and Peter Hitchens. What a band of losers. Funny how these chaps are almost indistinguishable from Milne and Fisk.

ps Why no word on the matter from your glorious leader and founder Harry Hatchett/Steele? After all South Ossetia and Abkhazia were integrated into Georgia by Harry’s hero Josif Stalin/Djugashvilli.

“a) the US is attempting to push the boundries of NATO right up to Russia’s borders,
b) No great power would welcome military encirclement,”

Zin, yes the US is trying to push NATO right up against Russia’s borders. But just as much countries on Russias borders have been trying to claw their way into NATO, and with good reason it now becomes apparent. question for you: is it as legitmate for the US to push it alliances up against Russia’s borders as it was for the Soviet Union to bring Cuba under its complete domination?

Your second point is true in the abstract but doesn’t apply to Russia - after China has the longest border with Russia, is the power that most “encircles” and would be really, really insulted to hear itself called a pawn of US scheming.

Anyway this attempt by Russia to justify this invasion as a move to protect Russian citizens sends a clear message to countries liek Estonia and Ukraine: immediately liquidate any Russian population inside your borders by whatever means available or face invasion and annihilation as a nation.

Whilst I have reservations about the Western democracies position on the Georgian conflict, I must note with interest that the likes of Milne and others from the Stop the War Coalition do, in fact, seem rather enthusiastic about this particular war, given that one of Dubya’s chosen few is getting a good spanking. Milne seems almost gleeful in noting that Georgia has troops in Iraq.

Has the Georgeous One given a view on the matter yet?

iv) that Russia’s ambition is to annex territory south of the Caucasus so that it has a monopoly over oil/gas distribution from the Caspian basin.

If that’s the case then Geogia’s application for NATO membership, it’s desire to be *free* is but a pretext, windowdressing, for various oil and gas interests.

I don’t support Russia, but know that foreign affirs are all réal-politic.

I can’t see Russia remaining silent and passive about Georgia joining Nato any more than I could have imagined America remaining silent and passive when Russia placed nuclear missiles on cuba’s soil, all those years ago.

Georgia is toast, having played its hand very poorly. Relatively speaking, Russia has a great deal to loose in this, whereas Nato hasn’t really much to gain.

What I can’t understand is why people in neither Washington nor Western Europe see how conflicts like this only serve to strengthen the hand of our enemies.

If Nato goes up to bat for Georgia, Russia will no doubt respond by funelling arms, money and technology to various anti-american elements in the Islamic world and by cosying up to energy-hungry China.

Georgia just isn’t worth it.

Yes he has.

http://tinyurl.com/56354f

Hard Russian tank turrets get Georgie damp.

A rainy night in Georgia, such a rainy night in Georgie

Coupled with the thought of a corrupt oil and gas regime, its orgasmatron time for the little spiv.

I don’t know if it compensates for the disappointment of his Iraqi martyrs ceasing to fight, but I’m sure it helps.

If would be if it wasn’t for the US. That’s the point.

Russia has absolutely no interest in either invading or subjugating western Europe for the simply reason that there’s nothing to be gained by doing so. It’s not as though France and England are sitting on a storehouse of oil and precious metals.

On the other hand, though, certain elements among our islamic *allies* have openly declared their intentions to destroy Europe and The entire West by undermining both from within through a combination of stealth jihad and demographics.

I’d even say that, overall, Russia’s long-term interests dovetail with those of the rest of Europe. However, and unfortunately, the financial intersts of a few high-end investors run counter to the immediate and long-term interests of both, and it is those financial interests that take precedence.

Russia’s latest provocation seems to have concentrated minds:

“US and Poland ‘agree’ shield deal”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7561926.stm

I bet Milne is hopping mad. How dare those Poles do a deal with the imperialist yanks?

But seriously, if the Russians thought this was going to cow its other ex satellites it appears to have made a huge mistake.

it is strange how the likes of Zin and Milne have learnt nothing since the fall of the USSR?

it is as if they were frozen in aspic around 1991, having spent years making excuses for Soviet totalitarianism and brutality Zin and Milne now finding themselves doing that again but for Vladimir Putin.

they weren’t called Tankies** for nothing

—
** Tankie was a pejorative term referring to members of the Communist Party of Great Britain who followed a slavishly pro-Kremlin stance, approving of the crushing of revolts in Hungary and later Czechoslovakia by Soviet tanks.

The term originated from 1956, when the CPGB lost a lot of members, who left in protest at the Soviet invasion of Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

Looks like the US have given the Poles a defence guarantee:

“The deal, which was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk called a “mutual commitment” between the two nations - beyond that of NATO - to come to each other’s assistance in case of danger.

That was an obvious reference to the force and ferocity with which Russia rolled into Georgia in recent days, taking the key city of Gori and apparently burning and destroying Georgian military outposts and airfields.

Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland’s defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take “days, weeks to start that machinery.”

Shows what Poland thinks of NATO’s ability to respond…zero.

This guy takes on Milne and Juan Cole

http://blog.z-word.com/2008/08/the-return-of-the-neocons/

“The US is attempting to push the boundries of NATO right up to Russia’s borders”, protests Zin.

Before he makes a fool of himself, he ought to look at a map. Five NATO members already border Russia - they are Norway (yes - in the far north), Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland (the latter two encircle a slice of Russian territory, the Kalingrad enclave).

Why should adding Georgia to NATO make such a difference ? Zin will probably say “Ah, but its’s on the Black Sea coast!” As are two other NATO members, Turkey and Bulgaria.

In any case, sovereign states have the right to join whatever international organisations they see fit. I would much prefer NATO to be disbanded - but that’s not going to happen as long as Putin and Medvedev are threatening to recreate the Tsarist empire.

John P

“….. Russia’s ambition is to annex territory south of the Caucasus so that it has a monopoly over oil/gas distribution from the Caspian basin.

“If that’s the case then Geogia’s application for NATO membership, it’s desire to be *free* is but a pretext, windowdressing, for various oil and gas interests.

I don’t support Russia, but know that foreign affirs are all réal-politic.

I can’t see Russia remaining silent and passive about Georgia joining Nato any more than I could have imagined America remaining silent and passive when Russia placed nuclear missiles on cuba’s soil, all those years ago.”

Errm - the pipeline through Georgia, it’s not Russia’s pipeline is it ? It is owned by Georgia, the Azeris and a small percent by western oil companies.

So what’s your point? that Russia is entitled to illegally invade and occupy Georgia in order to seize control of Georgia’s pipeline because it doesn’t like anyone else controlling oil supplies in the region?

Seems a good enough reason, among many, as current events are showing, for Georgia to want to join NATO. Or have I missed part of your argument?

Gentle readers, If Seamus Milne irritates you, how about this letter in the “Weekly Worker”:

Must do better
For the edification of Robert Clough (Letters, July 31) and others of a ‘Stalinist? Moi?’ bent: Stalinism is the advocacy of individual roads to socialism primarily based on long-term diplomatic alliances with sections of alien classes. Third worldism is the belief that the revolution will break out in the (semi-)colonies and then spread to the metropoles. Put them together and you have the delectable brew, ‘third worldist Stalinism’, which converts itself into a left PR team for anti-colonial bourgeois nationalists.

James Turley
Plymouth

Mrs. Ben:

Objecting to Georgia joining NATO is one thing. Issuing Russian passports to citizens of another country (as Putin has been doing for the last few years) and using that as a pretext to send troops into that country and bombing it is rather another.

John P.:

Since Putin came to power, Russia governs more and more like a criminal organization, silencing political challengers and journalists either by imprisonment and murder, helping out the likes of Saddam to get around the sanctions and hide the WMDs it was supplying him with, and doing business with the mullahs of Iran, no doubt in exchange for Iran steering clear of Chechnya.

Norm Geras on Shameless Seamus:

Stupidity and its modes
As is well-known, George W. Bush has a reputation for being a very stupid man. But stupidity does have its limits and so when I read what Bush had said about Russia’s invasion of Georgia, alerted by the invading-a-sovereign-state bit, I read carefully. This is what he is reported as having said:

Russia has invaded a sovereign neighbouring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.
However stupid he may be, you see, Bush isn’t quite stupid enough, after the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, to say simply that invading a sovereign state is unacceptable in the 21st century. What’s unnaceptable, according to him, is the composite action of invading a sovereign state and threatening a democratic government ‘elected by its people’.

Nothing daunted, old shrewdyboots Seamus quotes Bush’s words and goes on to ask whether he could be one of the leaders of ‘the same governments that in 2003 invaded and occupied… the sovereign state of Iraq on a false pretext… (etc)’ - with the ‘etcetera’ not including the stuff about a democratic government. Milne thereby displays a greater stupidity than he thinks he has caught George Bush out in. Just another typical day in the columns of the Guardian newspaper.

So Russia is entitled to be nervous of being surrounded by EU countries belong to NATO on its western flank so much so that it can invade Georgia and try to stop these countries joining NATO the EU has no reason to be nervous of Russia on its eastern flank. And certainly not to invade any of the Russian republic on the other side of the boundary to protect their oil interests or the rights of European citizens…have I got that correct?

Russia’s arming of racist South Ossetian militias, which are like the prods of Ireland, and allowing them to attack Georgia started the conflict.

As a Ulster Catholic (amongst other things) who (if I don’t like to say so) pretty well informed about South Ossetia - that’s bollocks on both counts. (Almost to such an extent that I’m inclined to propose twinning Ballymena with, well, maybe Gori).

Yes, nation states are an atrocious idea. In fact, what has happened to the protestants (including episcopalians - do they still kid themselves they’re catholics, I’m not sure) in Ireland (Republic/Free State) is a damn good reason to be opposed in pretty much all circumstances and places to the notion that states should be formed on the basis of ethnicity and or religious allegiance.

Here is to multicultual entities!

Ven, this is false. They clearly voted for a government that’s stated aim is to join Nato.

Oh, Mike, you really know nothing about Ukrainian politics, do you?

If you think the principal reason that Yushchenko was (narrowly) elected in 2004, (or indeed that a very narrow majority of pro-Orangist votes in the two subsequent parliamentary elections, neither of which produced anything like a stable government) was to do with NATO membership (which, in fact, is not government policy: holding a referendum on NATO membership is)…then (a) you are overstating wildly the importance of foreign policy to the electorate (b) you are forgetting that whatever the political situation is, all but the most nationalist Ukrainians (and then only in the very westernmost regions - except for the bit of Ukraine that used to be in Slovakia, which is v. weird politcally) are broadly friedndly towards and feel an affinity with Russia and (c) you are forgetting just what a kleptocratic gangster state prepared to use murder as tool of policy was in charge of Ukraine before 2004 (and particularly after 1999), that Yanukovych’s candidacy represented not just a continuation but an intensification of.

Every opinion poll I have seen on the subject makes perfectly clear that there is a substantial majority against Ukraine joining NATO

(EU membership does have wider support: but the realisation about what that would mean re: establishing fortress-like borders between Ukraine and Russia and requiring Russians to get visas to visit “Little Russia” - not a pejorative term, btw - kind of makes me think that’s a non-starter too, even if Ukraine were some day to appear remotely as thought its candidacy might be worthy of consideration )

You’re completely ignorant of the issues here, Venichka. If you’re going to make these bold statements then try to study up on the situation.

After your pals in Russia fucked up their president’s face with poison, the mood amongst the public changed people and they decisively voted for change - change that would bring them closer to the west. It’s up to them to seek membership of NATO if they want to, and at the moment that is what they are doing. Every opinion poll shows that this is what the majority want.

You cannot stop them.

Francis Fukuyama pointed out that the French students of 1968 had no rational reason to rebel against their nation; after all they were the pampered elite of one of the freest and most prosperous nations in history. Yet some humans evidently need something to struggle against to give their life some meaning; Fukuyama wrote that
“if their part of the world is characterised by peaceful and prosperous democracy; then they will struggle against that peaceful and prosperous democracy”

Milne was born into the elite of British society; he walked into a succession of cushy journalism jobs - I suspect he has suffered or sacrificed little in his life. But like the French students and the counter culture movement maybe he feels the need to struggle against something, even, perversley the culture that gave him everything. Maybe a life of privilege has left him without a sense of accomplishment and he feels the need to ‘rebel’. That would explain why he sympathises with any group that opposes mainstream values, be they Soviets, Islamists, or anti-Western authoritarian types.

Or maybe he’ll just write any old rubbish for a bit of attention.

Ukraine are seeking NATO membership at the moment, Ven. You’re way out of touch.

This is standard American blogger raving nonsense. Check out any random thread on anything at Salon.com especially Glenn Greenwald’s column. Jews, America, White People, Capitalism are generally the reason for rabies, rain, poverty, war, Republicans and everything evil that has has ever happened in the history of people.

Support Georgia !!

HELP GEORGIA BEFORE IT IS NOT TOO LATE!!!
——
PLEASE,SIGN THIS PETITION!

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_per l/sig…i?557799&51

Please vote

http://www.georgia-vs-russia.com

This is standard American blogger raving nonsense.

Of course, this whole mess was instigated to elect Jonh McCain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/georgia-war-a-neocon-elec_b_118597.html

Damn them. Damn the Neocons.

In France in 1968 the typical industrial working week was 48 hours and a wife had to ask her husband’s permission to open a Bank account.

Where are you coming from, Chris P?

I am unhappy about the NATO policy. It seems to me plain daft to me to extend NATO right up to the entrance to the bear’s cave. Bears are bears. You don’t go prodding them with sticks. A sensible policy would of course to be to stop feeding them honey - which is exactly what we are doing by buying Russian oil and gas, letting them into G8 and pretending they are a democracy.

Of course Russia has behaved appallingly but on the Kosovo model we should be looking to South Ossetia to declare independence with our support.

The world is too dangerous a place now not to have a principled foreign policy.

Rather than NATO extension, a sensible middle policy would be to encourage Ukraine, Georgia and other ex republics of the Soviet Union to have their own defensive pact and to give them as many anti-tank and anti-aircraft blasters as they want.

My wish was that the United States (my country) withdrew from NATO in the early 90s. There was a window then where Europe had the space and time to make its own security arrangements.

“Issuing …… passports to citizens of another country”

goes on all the time Lynne T, under the one-grandparent principle that is incorporated in so many countries’ laws of citizenship (not the UK, obviously). Swiss Passports to the 7th generation, Spanish and Italian passports all over south America, Irish passports all over. US passports to anyone born there, whoever their parents are. And, above all, Swedish passports to Jewish Hungarians late in World War II.

But there is one important point you have got right: none of that justifies invasions. No Agentine invasion of Italy. No Irish invasion of Australia. No Swedish invasion of Hungary.

Field,

the Kosovo analogy doesn’t hold up. Russia is the former imperial power and created the situation in South Ossetia. It’s more similiar to Northern Ireland - the British empire being Russia and the Irish republic being Georgia. There was a peace process going on but Russia decided to do everything it can to disrupt this by arming racist militias - the same people who are now murdering civilians in Georgia, as shown on Newsnight - in order so they could give Georgia a punishment beating by invading them.

As for NATO extending itself right up to the borders of Russia. Well one of the few countries that hasn’t yet become part of NATO has been invaded, so that should spell out clearly why these countries tend to see it as in their own interests to be part of NATO.

If Russia itself sorted out it’s democratic problem and stopped being a gangster state, it could join NATO as well and we could all live in peace and harmony. If they have played it right a few years ago they would be a member today. However they chose another path therefore NATO should stand up for these recently liberated nations if this is what they want us to do.

It’s Russia that has the problem, not NATO.

Alan the students that initiated the 1968 strikes were from the elite of french society - it is beyond dispute that they were amongst the most priveliged people in the world. My analogy had absolutely nothing to do with the industrial working class in France - it was about elites that rebel against mainstram society.

I don’t understand what point you are trying to make beyond illustrating arcane knowledge of French 1960s labour laws; which is slightly off topic if you ask me.

Geez, don’t you people get it. Georgia is simply another illuminati false flag operation designed to divert world attention from ZOG expansionist goals.

Russia continues to advance while proclaiming it is observing a cease-fire. Sound familiar?
Read “Georgia: Russia controls a third of Nation: President says Russian Tanks moving deeper into Georgia; Rice pushes for Truce”
at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/14/world/main4349687.shtml

It seems that Putin is using Milosevic’s operations in Bosnia as his model for Georgia with the South Ossertian and Akbnazia militias as the Bosnian Serbs of this Aggression.

Mikheil Saakashvili: To stop Russia, the west must honour the words of freedom on which I have staked Georgia’s fate

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/15/georgia.russia

David Lindsay

And you pose as the bulwarks against Islam…

You depend on Christian votes….etc…..
………………….

Huh. Was that supposed to be some paranoid rant against the evil neocons?
It wasn’t even coherent. I don’t know what point you were trying to make.

“Twat.”

Yes, Seamus Milne is that for sure.

When empires disintegrate, the position of minorities in the new national entities that are created worsens. This is a historical law that applies to the Soviet Empire that collapsed 17 years ago as much as it applies to the Ottoman Empire and the Hapsburg Empires that collapsed a hundred years ago.

When members of the dominant people making up the empire become minorities within new minority states, real trouble ensues. Sudeten Germans, Cypriot Turks, Russified Ossetians and (next?) Baltic Russians - all can cause antagonism and wars out of all proportion to the objective magnitude of their grievances.

The achievements of Gorbachev, Yakovlev and Shevardnadze in bringing about a peaceful transition in the 1990’s are all the more remarkable when compared with contemporary events.

“Who is this prick david lindsay? His inane blog contains a series of drunken national socialist rants and links to far-right conspiracy clowns like Laughland and Peter Hitchens. ”

As per my post on another thread. Ignore. Allow some other blog the benefit of his great wisdom. He is a bit creepy…and not the type to bother engaging with. Just a sad old wind-up merchant.

I love Norm’s reponse to Milne -

http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/08/stupidity-and-its-modes.html

The neocons don’t like it when Putin fights back. You think democracy is the solution for everyone? It is hard for Iraqi people to believe that ,when the only building protected was the oil ministry in Baghdad, in the wake of U.S. troops entry there and looting and pillaging was allowed of ordinary dwellings. That sends out a very powerful message my friends, as to what is important to U.S. interests. Have any of you ever been in a middle east country that is not Israel? Have you been in Africa? Do you honestly think the U.S. has a right to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq and then question Russia’s right to defend its territory, when you have a military school in Georgia training right wing military terrorists to destabilise non-friendly (to U.S.) regimes.? You need to travel more and ask questions rather than simply digesting Fox news

You need to travel more and ask questions rather than simply digesting Fox news

I know that a popular tactic when arguing tediously on the internet is to accuse one’s opponent of getting all their information from Fox News, but I doubt very much whether anybody among the collective “you” that you refer to actually watches it. I’ve never seen a minute of Fox News in my life. It might be worth bearing in mind that there are intelligent people who reach different conclusions to yours without having been fed propaganda.

a military school in Georgia training right wing military terrorists to destabilise non-friendly (to U.S.) regimes.

Source

OT but CIF has a more sensible piece today on libel tourism. Its audit by the UN Human Rights committee contains a criticism of the UK in this regard. Leave aside, as one CIF commenter points out, that this is the UN body which is advocating defamation of religion when Islam is blasphemed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/15/labour.freedomofinformation?commentpage=1

a military school in Georgia training right wing military terrorists to destabilise non-friendly (to U.S.) regimes.

That is the most entertaining mix up of the two Georgias I have read yet.

Yes, the USA is often contemptible in its pursuit of international relations. Like most countries that have international interests.

Aren’t these the same Leftists who supported a Greater Serbia? The same Leftists claiming to be ‘anti-imperialists’ and members of the Stop The War movement? What a joke, where are these Stop the War people now?

One thing is for sure, the ‘anti-imperialist’ credentials of people like Seymour and Milne are now discredited. At the first sign of Russian tanks attacking a US ally, they dropped all the anti-war slogans and started shilling for Putin.

Some of the most disingenuous people in the history of Left Wing politics. And thats quite a tall order as you lefties know.

Mike, I speak both Ukrainian and Russian, I read the press of both countries regularly. You’re talking bollocks.

“My pals in Russia”: Fuck off

eg. Just for starters

“According to polls conducted recently by the independent Democratic Initiatives Foundation in Kiev, 59 percent of Ukrainians would vote against joining NATO, up from 53 percent last December, while 22 percent would vote in favor, down from 32 percent.”

(International Herald Tribune, 16 June 2008)

Ven,

I lose the will to live when ages ago reading mike’s stuff, so what is the bone of contention between you?

Hmm - mod, seems to me that he thinks I am a supporter of Putinist aggression and expansionism, principally (I think) because I am prepared to acknowledge the faults of the other side (and base my analysis on a broad range of facts, as opposed to parroting one-sided propaganda/swallowing a “party line”).

Although I realise there may be other interpretations..

Ukraine are seeking NATO membership at the moment, Ven. You’re way out of touch.

No they’re not.

And there,s something to be said about NATO’s eastward push that few know about.

Poland is slated to welcome the missile shield on its soil, but Poland’s leaders keep dragging their feet.

There’s always a probleme that necessitates a major investment on the part of the Americans to solve. They’re milking the installation of a technology, a technology no one is even sure can work, for every peripheral perk it’s worth.

Seems a good enough reason, among many, as current events are showing, for Georgia to want to join NATO. Or have I missed part of your argument?

Mrs Ben, it’s generally said that there is no room for morality in geo-politics.

At the risk of sounding as though I’m defending Russia’s actions ( I don’t wish to), all I can say is that they’re NOT going to allow for a NATO member on their southern flank…any more than America would have tolerated Russian nukes on Cuba’s soil back in the 60s.

And the current demonisation of Russia rings hollow. Britian and America do business EVERY day with a whole slew of despicable mid-east despots, who seek to destroy our whole way of life, and whose abysmal human rights records make those of Russia look positively benign.

You’re a women, Mrs Ben. forced to make a choice about electing domicile in either Saudi Arabia or Russia, which one would you pick?

Be honest!

Were any of the 911 highjackers Russian? Were any of the Madrid bombers Russian? Were any of the July7th jihadists of Russian origin?

Well, the answers are “no”, “no” and “no”!

Unless we smarten up, get out of cold war mode, reassess and reexamine the entire international scene, as well as adding a little water to our ‘russophobic’ wine, we’re going to get our ass handed to us on a jihadist platter.

Russian ambitions are a major pain in the rear for the investment strategies of a few private individuals, and it is the personal economic interests of those same individuals that are driving the current flair up of big-bad-bear talk even as they caresse, cajole and mollycoddle rabid mid-east islamists.

From where I stand, it’s as though The West’s foreign policies have been highjacked and harnassed to the cause of individual financial fortunes much to the detriment of our own self-interest as a civilisation and to our own long-term security.

I don’t give shit about Russia, and the fact Putin’s a dictator (quelle surprise!) just doesn’t get me excited.

Well, in fact the Ukrainian Government ARE (or were) seeking a “Membership Action Plan” for NATO (just as Georgia were) - which would precede any eventual membership by several years: but (aware of the tensions that membership could cause) they have also made it clear that any eventual membership would require approval by referendum.

The political situation is far from stable, in any case: it is highly likely that Yanukovych may (unfortunately) return to the premiership in the months ago [the current semi-Orange coalition don't have a majority in parliament any more, and in any case is riven with tensions between Yushchenko's lot and tymoshenko's lot]: last time he was in charge his government (quite in breach of the division of powers provided for by the Ukrainian constitution, which sets foreign policy as a presidential prerogative) made explictly clear to NATO that they were not interested in membership, and also undermined (and then removed, again in breach of the constitution) the pro-NATO pro-EU foreign minister.

So it’s not clear cut. But I no more see Ukraine joining NATO than I see any desire among the population of Eastern Ukraine (Crimea, possibly, excepted) for any form of reunion with Russia (another misconception about Ukraine that the Anglophone press in England loves to circulate)

Unless you think Condi Rice is a far-left loon, of course…

fair enough Ven,

I have always found your comments on Eastern Europe to be cogent and well informed.

Well, thanks mod, I can talk nonsense on other topics.

(I do kind of resent being accused of supporting the poisoning of someone I’d been supporting to become president for several years beforehand - even if he has proved somewhat ineffectual in practice, he’s still been better than what went before and immeasurably better than what the alternative threatened would have been)

Well you may be a catholic nutter but I am not sure why your views are “dodgy” unless somebody has swallowed the anti-HP propaganda that this site is purely for those of a Nu-Labour persuasion.

Very odd behaviour.

Chris P - “Milne was born into the elite of British society; he walked into a succession of cushy journalism jobs”

Quite unlike anyone in the world of HP, the Euston Manifesto, obviously.

The lot of you, OF COURSE these places are not going to be let into NATO now. Don’t be silly. None of Russia’s business? Grow up!

And wake up, Uncle Sam: the Russians don’t care what you think.

The American century was the last one, just as the British century was the one before that. “Damage relations with the United States”? They don’t care.

Get used to this, because you’re going to be receiving a lot more of it. Welcome to being what you made us (although we have since declined even from this): one among half a dozen very powerful countries in the world, but that is all.

By way of illustration, Russia, with Serbia and others (most obviously Armenia and Belarus), could and probably will announce a firm intention to recognise and defend any declaration of independence by South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh or the Republika Srpska, including any decision to be incorporated into any of the states so announcing, all the while as enclaves both against Islam and against its pretended enemy but in fact close friend, those who have moved from “neither Washington nor Moscow, but International Socialism” to “neither Christendom nor the Dar al-Islam, but Global Capitalism”.

“Poland is slated to welcome the missile shield on its soil, but Poland’s leaders keep dragging their feet.”

Not no mo, John

“I don’t give shit about Russia, and the fact Putin’s a dictator (quelle surprise!) just doesn’t get me excited”, declares JohnP.

In which case, why do you join in a discussion which is inevitably all about Russia?

One of the positive aspects of the Lenin’s Tomb blog is that Lenin (aka Richard Seymour) deletes the racists and outright lunatics. Those who run Harry’s Place should consider a similar policy, which would make the discussions much more readable.

David Clark responds to Seamus Milne on CIF.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/15/russia.georgia1

Lenin deletes the racists?
LOL.

“Or even the two governments that blocked a ceasefire in the summer of 2006 as Israel pulverised Lebanon’s infrastructure and killed more than a thousand civilians in retaliation for the capture or killing of five soldiers?”

Is this man dumb, insane, ignorant, or just a common or garden Guardian antisemitic cunt?
Israel’s actions in Lebanon were in response to ongoing shelling of its civilians from Lebanon over a very long period, asshole.

I don’t suppose it could be both, could it?

In which mental asylum is Seamus Milne confined?

It could be all of them, Jane: my money is on dumb and antisemite, though. Never underestimate the stupidity of Guardian hacks.

Atlaf,
The moment a scribbler starts talking about Israel’s ‘disproportionate response’, you know he is an ignorant asshole.

I feel the same away about people who complain about others talking about Israel’s blatantly disproportional response:

On the contary, those who saw Israel’s disproportionate response for what is was (without expressing any support for Hezbollah, who are more loathsome still) are precisely those who retained some evidence of morality, decency and honour.

that’s why I was delighted that people who, quite immorally and disgustingly, made all sorts of excuses for that piece of barbarity in mid-2006, at least had the decency to make the same observation about Russia’s now less blatantly and no less disgusting disproportionate response this month.

Among all the disgusting hypocracy and cheering on of “might is right” values that was appallingly and loathsomely commonplace around here at that time, there was also a feigned fury that anyone could use the term “disproportionate” is any kind of military context.

Strangely no such deluded whining and complaining has been evident this time.

Talk about “double standards”

And for the record, I was not surprised by Israel’s loathsome actions then, any more than I was by Russia’s loathsome actions much more recently.

What I was surprised (and disgusted) by in 2006 - that was not so in 2008 - was the response (contemptible, lily-livered and dispicable) of the British Government.

And how right we were to oppose the Israeli aggression then, too: look at how Hezbollah’s position has been strengthened in Lebanon since (among heightened instabliity, even by Lebanese standards): look at how the promises of the so-called cedar revolution - more or less now a distant memory.

Poor Lebanon. Poor poor Lebanon. To have Syria and Israel as its neighbours. I would not wish such a situation on anyone. Poor Lebanon.

Poor Lebanon. Poor poor Lebanon. To have Syria and Israel as its neighbours. I would not wish such a situation on anyone. Poor Lebanon.

If it wasn’t allowing Hezbollah to operate freely inside the house and piss on the neighbour’s lawn I might have more sympathy.

More antisemitic screeching from the North London tosser. Israel responded to never-ending shelling from Lebanon. Clearly, Jews defending themselves is not to the liking of demented North London tossers. Ah, well: tough.

Nearly Oxfordian, thank you for not engaging in debate.

Care to clarify this opaque statement, Jane?

I was responding to the original post.

That’s all clear then … not.
Which post, pray?
Ah, well, never mind. I have some interesting paint to watch as it dries.

Nearly Oxfordian: Thank you for your reply. I was referring to the post that we are currently discussing. You are tiresome.

And you are dumb.

Thank you for replying, Nearly Oxfordian. Is this where I reply, “No, you are”?

Congratulations on lowering the internet bar — again!

I shan’t be reading this post again, but I’m sure the blogosphere and posterity will welcome another sage rejoinder.

Good luck on compiling your collected works.

What wit! What originality!
Did you wet your knickers with excitement writing this tosh?