Harry’s Place

Its funny, the statement by Hezbollah is almost identical to the gloating we are seeing at Cif. I often wonder if Hezbollah/Hamas have organised one of the most effective media hijackings in recent years. Then I remember the European Left has always been like this. What the gloaters fail to realise is that Georgia is going to be joining NATO. Stick a few US stealth bombers around Tbilisi and see hpw tough the Russians are next time.

Dear me, Marko, you really do have too much time on your hands.

By the way, in your latest rather strained screed for the Henry Jackson Society, you write:

For the first time since World War II, democratic Europe is threatened by a hostile power that not only resembles Nazi Germany in terms of its authoritarianism, brutality and expansionism, but in terms of its military power as well.

A peach of a Godwin! Yes, Russia is authoritarian and Putin is sinister, but as far as I know Russia does not use concentration camps, and does not shovel millions of Jews into gas chambers. Nor does it seek to conquer large swathes of Europe as was the Nazis rather obvious intention - and even if it did, it has not got a chance of doing so.

Of course, whilst Georgia has made improvements and is more democratic than it was, its hardly got a wonderful record, and nor has Saakashvili.

Sorry, for the shades of grey, carry on fulminating.

‘Tehran is learning from the crisis in the Caucasus. If the U.S. fails to help its ally in Tbilisi, Tehran’s power will increase. On the other hand, serious American activity in Moscow’s back yard would teach Tehran a completely different lesson.’

Ah yes, Uncle Sam muscling around again, as its economy weakens, and it has commitments elsewhere. Marko may like to pull armies out his backside for his wargames, but in the real world its a tad more difficult.

America of course won’t militarily intervene on behalf of Georgia, and even if it did it is less clear cut whether the evil doers in Tehran would be that pissed off about it. After all the US military swanning about in Iraq were supposed to teach everyone a lesson, but Iraq now hardly weakens Iran.

Marko is right about the oil thing, of course, but of course its only those dastardly Russians that can have such low motives!

Benjamin makes me sexually excited. Do I have a problem?

For what it’s worth, Georgia ranks slightly below Russia on the Economist’s index of democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

According to an article on Electronic Intifada (linked to above);

While supporting Georgia was certainly risky for Israel, given the possible Russian reaction, it has a compelling reason to intervene in a region that is heavily contested by global powers. Israel must constantly reinvent itself as an “asset” to American power if it is to maintain the US support that ensures its survival as a settler-colonial enclave in the Middle East. It is a familiar role; in the 1970s and 1980s, at the behest of Washington, Israel helped South Africa’s apartheid regime fight Soviet-supported insurgencies in South African-occupied Namibia and Angola, and it trained right-wing US-allied death squads fighting left-wing governments and movements in Central America. After 2001, Israel marketed itself as an expert on combating “Islamic terrorism.”

Tehran would do better to consider the response of the US to Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. Saddam thought like the Mullahs: the US is soft and has no stomach for a fight. That would depend on how the US viewed the consequences of inaction.

I find the Georgia situation confusing, but offer the following observations:

1 Saakashvili, for all his Western upbringing, is a hothead, who the US has had to restrain before. This time, they took their eyes off him.

2 Russia needs no protection from Georgia - the Caucasus mountains are quite sufficient.

3 Curiously inept that Georgia invaded South Ossetia without blocking the only access Russia has to it - the Koti tunnel - which remains a serious logistical weakness for the Russian forces.

4 The murderous hatred of the Ossetian militias towards Georgians indicates that Georgia has internal problems far worse than Ulster, and that are only exacerbated by this Russian action.

A very nasty mess, but very particular to Georgia. Hezbollah can take little comfort from this apart from shadenfreude.

What the gloaters fail to realise is that Georgia is going to be joining NATO.

Not in your lifetime, Tory

Saakashvili of course closed down an opposition TV station while it was on air. According to one report I heard, it was only put back on air after pressure from the US. Saakashvili’’s military attack, which kicked off this mess, seemed inept and curiously timed. One is distrustful of the Russians, but suspicious of the other side too.

‘Yes, Russia is authoritarian and Putin is sinister, but as far as I know Russia does not use concentration camps, and does not shovel millions of Jews into gas chambers.’

The Holocaust began in 1941. The Munich Agreement occurred in 1938. In defence of appeasement, Benji probably would have argued in 1938 that ‘the Third Reich isn’t shovelling millions of Jews into gas chambers’.

Keep going son, I’m nearly there!

No, Django, he does that to me too. I get a little tingling sensation every time the heroic Benji rapid rebuttal service goes into action. I only tell him to fuck off in order to mask my true feelings.

I entirely agree with the gist of the article - this sort of 19thC great power politics shouldn’t be tolerated in the 21st Century. But this does rather raise the question as to what, in practical terms, we are meant to do? I am very much open to cheerleading (with or without pom-poms) sensible suggestions. Someone just needs to tell me what to think.

As an aside, as per usual, I have noticed that not all the leftier than thou people I know are being soft on the Russkies, but that sort of politics does seem to be a prerequisite for soft-soaping their nakedly self-interested bully-boy tactics. A fascination with totalitarianism, soft or otherwise, perhaps? And then they wonder why no one likes them or invites them to dinner parties. It’s not just the lack of social graces. Tsk.

Oh dear me, Marko. If that is really you, you really have lost it with that bizarre comment. I was only pointing the rather obvious absurdities of your statement comparing Russia today with situation of Nazi Germany in Europe. Where do you start? Its simply unsustainable.

Wouldn’t it just be easier to stop encircling Russia with some stupid missile shield and to just come to an entente cordiale?

Russia is never going to blossom into the flower of democracy we’d all love to see, so perhaps we should just accept that, muster some humility and cut a deal with them.

Shit, if you can hold hands with the islamo-fascist creeps of Saudi Arabia, the same intolerant creeps who disseminate the jihadist ideology that kills everywhere, surely we could tolerate Putin.

Western energy wonks are not going to get their hands on Russia’s natural resources they way they did during the Yeltsin years, and denouncing Putin for doing what wimpy, western *globalised* leaders should be doing, but won’t–ie defending national interests, resources and sovereignty–is beginning to make Putin look like a bit of a hero.

The 911 highjackers weren’t Russian…14 were Saudis

None of the July 7 bombers were Russian.

Nor were any of the Madrid bombers.

Nor the authors of the attacks on the USS cole and the American Embassy in Kenya.

However what all of these murderers had in common is something BOTH The West AND Russia have as their biggest enemy, and yet we cannot come to an entente???

Has it gotten to the point where our foreign policies, military strategies ( not to mention the current immigration *programme*) are geared entirely towards profit-making ( far a wealthy few), to the complete detriment of our national security and long-term economic interests?

And as for the missle shield? Of what fucking use is this high-tech Maginot line in an era of suitcase nuke blitzkriegs?

Would it have stopped 911 or the July 7th attacks?
Of course not!

And when the next attacks occur the explosions won’t be caused by chemical fertilisers, but by something much, much stronger.

This whole idea is being pushed by defense contractors looking to make billions.

But the kind of war we’re involved in no longer makes any money for those who once supplied all the military hardware.

The heavy-duty and highly profitable war products once manufactured by Ford, GM, Boeing and thousands of others have become almost as obsolete as suits of armour because the era of conventional warfare, that of state-to-state confrontation on a battlefield, is gone.

“Ah yes, Uncle Sam muscling around again, as its economy weakens”

America’s economy in bad shape, is still doing better than almost all European states.

Its so special when European anti-Americanistas gloat over any weakness in Washington, while their own continent dies a slow death.

Wait a minute, I thought that it was laughable and borderline anti-semitic to suggest that America and Israel were directly backing Georgia in their own interests. Just a week ago, anybody saying so just showed the unseriousness of the left.

So now, America and Israel are backing Georgia, and that’s a good thing.

If I’ve got this right, the situation is that any suggestion that the Americans or the Israelis have a hand in the Georgia/Ossetia/Russia affair is utterly ridiculous, except when it isn’t.

Well, that’s clear then.

No I am not gloating over a slower US economy. I wish it will pick up - it will help me. However, those who always cry more soldiers from Uncle Sam should realise that there are constraints - economic and political ones.

Something pathetic in all this taunting of Israel by Nasrallah aka The Lebanese Groundhog. Russia & its buddies like Nasrallah are in such sad shape overall compared to the US, NATO & Israel that they have to boast about Russia winning such a one-sided war with Georgia.

Note: Today is the 40th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Czechslovakia. The Russian Bear has not changed its ways, but it is a whole lot weaker and less dangerous now then it was in 1968.

Wait a minute, I thought that it was laughable and borderline anti-semitic to suggest that America and Israel were directly backing Georgia in their own interests.

Tsk, it was actually borderline satire, because the view was so absolutely ludicrous!

Benji seems to have mutated into some kind of maximum-strength unadulterated Super-Benji over the last 24 hours.

He’s exhibiting the whole range of Benji-isms, at full power.

Tremble as he threatens to flex his sardonic eyebrow!

Flee in the face of his ‘teacup/storm’ perception!

Gasp at his ‘Ah yes/Oh dear’ pity template!

Run mortals, run!

“Wait a minute, I thought that it was laughable and borderline anti-semitic to suggest that America and Israel were directly backing Georgia in their own interests.”

Then you are more confused than you realise. As far as I know, nobody serious has suggested that the US did not have close diplomatic ties to Georgia, nor that Israel was an ally of that country. The point is, whether they do or not is down to them and Georgia and is none of Russia’s business.

One question here (for Marko as much as any of the Israel haters and ‘anti-imperialists’). If the USA and Israel caused the war in South Ossetia by flooding Georgia with arms, how come all the news footage we saw showed Georgians using ex-Soviet kit (from Kalashnikovs to Grad missile launchers and T72s)?

“Nor does it seek to conquer large swathes of Europe as was the Nazis rather obvious intention”

You perhps didn’t notice the Russian tanks rolling into the territory of its democratic neighbour Georgia? I suppose that Georgia not being Europena renders that irrelevant?

The Russian Bear has not changed its ways, but it is a whole lot weaker and less dangerous now then it was in 1968.

Well sort of. Marko’s absurd contention that “democratic Europe is threatened by a hostile power [Russia] that not only resembles Nazi Germany in terms of its authoritarianism, brutality and expansionism, but in terms of its military power as well” rather suggests that Marko is reliving past wars, or dreaming of new ones, rather than seeing the world as it is.

Russia has changed. Its economy has changed. Yes, its authoritarian, yes its very far from being democratic, but it is now far more integrated into the global economy. Its the economic picture too that makes Marko’s comparison absurd.

demonstrative/confusion -

No, it was specifically ‘laughable and borderline anti-semitic’ to suggest that Israel ‘tricked’ or provoked the US and Russia into a war.

Why don’t you revisit that post, then come back here?

“And as for the missle shield? Of what fucking use is this high-tech Maginot line in an era of suitcase nuke blitzkriegs?”

It is not intended as a protection against a full nuclear strike but as a defence against single missile attacks from rogu states. It is unlikely to work even for that. This is why the missile defence blather is such a red herring. Russia is simply rattling sabres to prove its dominance in the region and to cow the emergent democracies into submission.

Mark T on Benji: ”Run mortals, run!’

No way Mark, I haven’t had internet sex action like this in years. It actually makes me think he might even GO FURTHER!

There is a god.

America’s economy in bad shape, is still doing better than almost all European states.

The United States had 179,599 foreclosure - or repossession - filings in July. This equates to one for every 693 households according to the BBC.

The US national debt is 9.6 trillion dollars - a 70% increase over the past five years.

That sure is some good economy you’ve got going there TT

I have to say that I can’t think of anything more misguided and foolish - and truly the road to hell is paved with good intentions - than the notion that the US should have intervened militarily in Georgia

Quite apart from the fact that Putin-Medvedev’s Russia, however disagreeable and authoritarian and bullying and contemptible, is nothing like Hitler’s Germany (and lacks the ideological basis to become anything remotely approaching it), neither was the (dangerous, misguided and deluded, whatever the provocation) attempt to recapture South Ossetia (or, erm, whatever the Georgian authorities prefer to call it at any given time, having only acknowledged it by that name, for purely strategic reasons, for the last 2 years or so, for all the time that Georgia has existed as an independent state) by military means.

i would have (and, indeed, have), applauded attempts of the Saakashvili regime to reintegrate SO into Georgia by purely diplomatic/political, peaceful means -at least if that was agreed by common consent of the population there (and those expelled by the virulently insanely nationalistic regime of Gamsurkhadia in the early 90s). But making a shooting war out of it…no. No way.

Saakashvili can’t be trusted as far as he can as his voice can be heard (his misguided support for Israel when it was launching a similarly obnoxious and unwarranted - but oh so well-intentioned - with the rhetorical defence of so so many self-righteous and deluded fools - attack on Lebanon being a clear proof of this - although there are many others, in purely domestic affairs): and no matter how many times he is photographed in front of an EU flag, he is very very far from being a democrat or anything remotely approaching one. And making his rather dubious (even if marginally less dubious than most of his neighbours) regime “a western ally” - represents supreme politicking on his part, and geopolitical opportunism and cynicism on the part of the Cheney element of the US regime…

I am very worried about the immediate future of Georgia: as much because of the volatility of the country itself as the meddling of irresponsible outside parties (which must evidently most certainly include Israel as well as Russia): These outside parties are worthy of nothing but condemnation. The country has already degenerated into bloody anarchy once in the recent past without interference from such dubious external actors. This time round it could easily be a lot lot worse - if it is deemed to be the location of some proxy war between outside elements who really ought to mind their own business.

Meanwhile, pressure must be put, both on Russia, to live up to its international obligations: and on Georgia, to behave responsibility.

And, really, I fail to see of what relevance Hezbollah’s opinion (or Iran’s) on this matter is at all. Neither of these parties pose any imminent or great threat to the west, nor are likely to do so in the foreseeable future. As such there is absolutely no reason to allow them to dictate European (let alone American) foreign policy

Wait a minute, I thought that it was laughable and borderline anti-semitic to suggest that America and Israel were directly backing Georgia in their own interests. Just a week ago, anybody saying so just showed the unseriousness of the left.

Well, I thought that too (being aware of America’s involvement, but completely unaware of the extent of Israeli involvement in helping Georgia’s military…or that Georgia’s Defence Minister 0 aged 29 - bit young to be in charge of a military, surely and “Reintegration Minister” are both former Israeli citizens): but then I started to see first nearly-far-right Israeli websites (Debka, for example) gloating over Georgia’s “victory” (for the few hours that it looked like a victory), and then more mainstream Israeli sites boasting of the connections, and thought, bloody hell…

Reckless adventurism, I believe is the name for what Saakashvili’s regime have done. Hopefully they will pay for it (although, Georgia being Georgia, I suspect that some of them will pay for it with their lives), without dragging the rest of the country down with them.

Above all, it is reckless, because it makes the far greater abuser in the region - Russia - far more difficult to deal with.

And I just have to laugh out loud (because it is easier than tearing all my hair out, or screaming wildly) every time that someone describes Georgia as a democracy.

I have absolutely no doubt that Belarus will become a democracy far far sooner than will Georgia, if it ever will.

John Meredith

As you know, I was dealing with Marko’s absurd comparison of Russia with Nazi Germany. There are very obvious bits like the concentration camps and mass slaughter of Jews that Germany engaged in and does not compare to Russia today. Also, Germany not only was intent on conquering swathes of Europe - but was capable of doing so and had the opportunity of doing so. Again that does not compare to Russia and Europe today.

Is that the general quality of Henry Jackson Society stuff? One hopes not.

Confusion, you are confused if you don’t know the difference between direct and indirect support.

Please everyone just ignore Benji. He’s at a loose end now his photo work with Edison Chen has dried up.

- John Meredith

As far as I know, nobody serious has suggested that the US did not have close diplomatic ties to Georgia, nor that Israel was an ally of that country. The point is, whether they do or not is down to them and Georgia and is none of Russia’s business.

So presumably, if Russia establishes large-scale military, naval and air-bases in Syria, and supplies advanced weapons systems to Iran then that will be a matter for those countries alone, and not a concern of Israel’s.

It is not intended as a protection against a full nuclear strike but as a defence against single missile attacks from rogue states. It is unlikely to work even for that. This is why the missile defence blather is such a red herring.

So why have the Americans been pushing so hard to base it in Eastern Europe? Surely not just to fill the coffers of Republican-friendly defense-contractors?

“And I just have to laugh out loud (because it is easier than tearing all my hair out, or screaming wildly) every time that someone describes Georgia as a democracy.”

In what sense is it innaccurate to describe Georgia as a democracy Venichka?

John P.

It’s not just that Russia under Putin and his newly installed proxy is anti-democratic, it’s that Russia under Putin was surely arming Saddam and helping him flout the sanctions that were supposed to at a minimum keep Saddam in his box and helping Saddam rid the country of contraband in 2002 in advance of a potential invasion.

Now there’s the sale of nuclear technology to Iran that’s supposedly gonna ensure that Iran’s nuclear program is for civilian purposes.

If you don’t think that a Russian confederation that wants to become a world power again is prepared to make its enemy’s enemy its friend, you’re very naive. I bet you anything some unholy deal has been cut between Russia and Iran re: Ossetia and the absence of jihaddists exploiting the situation in Southern Ossetia to flex their muscles (Ossetia’s “native” population is primarily eastern Persian, not Georgian or Russian.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg

Don’t you think it’s about time that you recognized that if the far left can cosy up to Hezbollah and Hamas, so can formerly communist Russia — now run by an old KGBer — can too? Frankly, I bet the unholy alliance between the reds and the greens is being supported behind the scenes by Russia just as surely as the USSR helped to turn “the left” against Israel after the ‘67 war.

if Russia establishes large-scale military, naval and air-bases in Syria, and supplies advanced weapons systems to Iran then that will be a matter for those countries alone, and not a concern of Israel’s.

How laughable that you see fit to compare the strategic relationship between Georgia and Russia to that between Syria and Israel.

Truly pathetic.

“So presumably, if Russia establishes large-scale military, naval and air-bases in Syria, and supplies advanced weapons systems to Iran then that will be a matter for those countries alone, and not a concern of Israel’s.”

It would certainly be a legitimate concern of Israel’s, but would not entitle Israel to invade Syria, or do you think differently? And let’s not forget that Iran has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel, Georgia and NATO do not threaten Russia militarily.

and helping Saddam rid the country of contraband in 2002 in advance of a potential invasion.

Lynne - do you have a source for that? Sounds like a conspiracy theory (previously wheeled out, again with no evidence for it), about Syria

And as for Jihadists in Ossetia: Erm, no.

(Do I really have to point out that the victims of one of the worst jihadist atrocities - the seige at Beslan - were mostly Ossetian?) Or are we even deeper in conspiracy-mongering land than I fear?)

Ossetians are Orthodox Christians, have traditionally been regarded as the closest ally of Russia in the Caucasus (and have difficult relations with their nearest Muslim neighbours, the Ingush having fought a war with them, too, in, the last 20 years). Yes they are ethnically Persian, but so what?

Mark T - I’m comparing the double standards. Israel trained and armed the Georgian troops that killed 2000 Ossettians and you utter no condemnation When Iran trains and equips the Hezbollah, you lot can’t stop bleating.

Hypocrite.

“As you know, I was dealing with Marko’s absurd comparison of Russia with Nazi Germany. There are very obvious bits like the concentration camps and mass slaughter of Jews that Germany engaged in and does not compare to Russia today. ”

But this is just trivial cavilling. The comparison was not supposed to stand in every particular, no comparison ever does. You might also have opinted out that Russians don’t speak Grman and Putin doesn’t have a moustache. MAH was making the point that Russia had not just the political ambition but the means to be a military threat and that seems like a credible analysis, especially to Georgians and Chchens, I suppose.

Frankly, I bet the unholy alliance between the reds and the greens is being supported behind the scenes by Russia just as surely as the USSR helped to turn “the left” against Israel after the ‘67 war.

What a fucking loonball. The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons.

“Mark T - I’m comparing the double standards. Israel trained and armed the Georgian troops that killed 2000 Ossettians and you utter no condemnation When Iran trains and equips the Hezbollah, you lot can’t stop bleating..”

This only has wreight if you ar saying that you consider that Iran’s arming of Hezbollah is wrong. But I don’t think you do.

Apart from that, can we just remeber that 2,000 Ossetians did not die by any credible account and that selling arms to a democratic ally is completley different to financing paramilitary and terrorist organisations. If you don’t agree with that you will find yourself in all sorts of poliitical difficulties.

Israel trained and armed the Georgian troops that killed 2000 Ossettians and you utter no condemnation

How odd. Here was I thinking that the extent of your knowledge of my opinions was two comments on this page.

Little did I know you’ve been monitoring me for some time!

(Oh and btw - 2000 Ossetians? Are you sure?)

“The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons.
”

Don’t be silly. Left wing hostlitiy against Israel is largely a sort of juvenile ‘anti-Imperialism’ aimed at Israel simply because it is the US’s chief regional ally, mixed with a good dollop of old-fashioned racism.

The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons.

Oh dear.

We have an ahistorical twerp who thinks the 1967 war was one of Israeli aggression.

In what sense is it innaccurate to describe Georgia as a democracy Venichka?

Ask the opposition media that has been silenced on several occasions, or the opposition politicians forced into exile, those subject to the questionable rule of law, or those who have had no recompense to justice for having been tortured under the previous post-independence regimes (even if we presume - rightly or wrongly - that sort of thing has ceased, which would strike me as an unwarrantedly positive assumption), those who live in the large swathes of the country (even outwith Abkhazia and South Ossetia) where the government in reality has little control, the family of that oligarch who died in mysterious circumstances outside London a few months ago….

There are lots of things to love and admire about Georgia (and, yes, to protect it from Russian bullying and aggression) - but the notion that it is a democracy (as opposed to a very argumentative anarchic sort of place that, unlike many parts of the ex-USSR, can not easily be ruled as a dictatorship) is most adamently not one of them.

DO you know of any other “democracies” in which the president was elected with 96% of the vote? (Yes, i know he got 53% in the most recent election: the first result must have embarrased even him)

That figure of 2000 Ossetians being killed on the first day of the war (or, most likely, during its entirety) is a downright malicious lie put about by those seeking to ethnically cleanse Georgians from the territory.

“DO you know of any other “democracies” in which the president was elected with 96% of the vote? (Yes, i know he got 53% in the most recent election: the first result must have embarrased even him)”

But nobody considers it a model democracy, but it has a government elected by popular vote and, it seems, it is capable of changing government without violence. That is enough to be going on with and justifies close diplomatic relations with Europe and the US, to my mind. If Gerogia wushes to join NATO, Russia, frankly, should have no say in the matter.

How odd. Here was I thinking that the extent of your knowledge of my opinions was two comments on this page.
Little did I know you’ve been monitoring me for some time!

No Mark, I read the site regularly and I have a memory. How odd is that?

(Oh and btw - 2000 Ossetians? Are you sure?)

Of course I’m not. Probably like you I’m in front of a monitor in the UK. However, South Ossetia claims between 1600 - 2000 civilians killed, Russia says it lost 74 troops killed whilst Georgia claims to have lost a total of 175 civilians and troops. I admit I used the higher figure when perhaps I should have also included the lower.

Left wing hostlitiy against Israel is largely a sort of juvenile ‘anti-Imperialism’ aimed at Israel simply because it is the US’s chief regional ally, mixed with a good dollop of old-fashioned racism.

And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course.

The comparison was not supposed to stand in every particular, no comparison ever does.

!! :-) Er… yes, in the general, but unfortunately Marko was embarrassingly explicit:

He said Russia “not only resembles Nazi Germany in terms of its authoritarianism, brutality and expansionism, but in terms of its military power as well.”

I mean, come on… Where do you start?

And nothing at all to do with it’s (sic) illegal occupation of Palestine of course.

Of course it isn’t. The left hated the Jews before Israel was created and will continue to do so long after Israel pulls out of the Occupied territories.

No Mark, I read the site regularly and I have a memory. How odd is that?

Within 4 minutes of me posting a comment, you post another rebutting me for my hypocrisy on the basis of my lack of a condemnation about Ossetians being killed, and my continual bleating about Iran arming Hezbollah?

I would suggest that such an instant and immediate recall of all my comments on those two topics exhibits either

a) freakish mental capacity
b) an unhealthy obsession with me.

Or you’re just talking out of your arse.

“And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course.”

No, I don’t think it does. Otherwise we would see a similar level of hostility levelled at, say, China’s illegal occupation of Tibet. The fact that Israel is disproprtionately targetted for criticism indicates that soemthing else is at work. Anti-imperialism of a particularly dim variety provides the rationale, I would suggest and antisemitism, the emotional punch.

“The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons.”

It’s staggering to watch how the lies flow off people’s tongues with so little effort.

, it is capable of changing government without violence.

Well, I hope so. But I unfortunately have my doubts. It’s only happened once. And the political system is pretty much a “party of power” one: the opposition has negligable parliamentary representation

Frankly Georgia makes Romania look like Democracy and non-corruption’s bright hope.

I think we will see in the months ahead.

The last president of Georgia, IIRC, was subject to a greater number of assassination attempts than any head of state in place during that period (I suppose: Castro, Karzai, Musharraf would be his only rivals). And his predecessor….well, one can (still) only speculate on the circumstances of his death.

I would be extremely surprised if Saakashvili leaves office as a result of the ballot box.

Sackcloth and Ashes,

‘If the USA and Israel caused the war in South Ossetia by flooding Georgia with arms, how come all the news footage we saw showed Georgians using ex-Soviet kit (from Kalashnikovs to Grad missile launchers and T72s)?’

To clarify: I don’t at all think that the US and Israel ’caused the war in South Ossetia by flooding Georgia with arms’. I do think that Russia engineered the war in order to reassert control over part of its former empire, and to strike a blow against US (and Israeli) influence in the region.

If Georgia wants to be allied to the US or Israel, and to receive weapons from them, then that is its right as a sovereign state. Israeli and US military support to Georgia in no way justifies the Russian invasion.

Interestingly of course Iran supports Christian Armenia against its fellow Muslim Turks and Azeris, what with this being about the Caspian oil basin as well as the older geo-political game of the Caucusus.

Turkey could surprise everyone and play checkmate by coming to an entente with Armenia, and bring Azerbaijan into this entente and big oil prizes for all.

Then again flying pigs may bomb Tehran.

If Azerbaijan and Armenia had come to an entente, those pipelines would never have gone across Georgia at all…

A peach of a Godwin! Yes, Russia is authoritarian and Putin is sinister, but as far as I know Russia does not use concentration camps, and does not shovel millions of Jews into gas chambers. Nor does it seek to conquer large swathes of Europe as was the Nazis rather obvious intention - and even if it did, it has not got a chance of doing so.

Well for Marko’s backers, Russia maintaining control over its resources represents a threat to the wallet.

And would it be worth pointing out to Marko that when Russia drove the nazis out of Hungary in WWII, she prevented the deaths of many, many Jews.

And to come out with some tired old comparison of Putin’s Russia to Nazi Germany implies that Mr Hoare has a low opinion of our intelligence.

As though upon hearing of this mortal ‘danger’, we should all go into *Butterfly McQueen* mode, opening our eyes wide in fear, flapping our hands and screaming; “don no nuthin’ ’bout birthin, babies or Russia miz Scarlet!”

And Irsael’s *involvement* in Gerogia is non-existant.

An independent consultancy firm dispensiong military advice, a firm that just happens to be based in Israel, does not mean that Israel is there in ANY official capacity.

Ex-military officers, from a whole variety of countries do these things after retiring because it’s very,very profitable.

If you don’t think that a Russian confederation that wants to become a world power again is prepared to make its enemy’s enemy its friend, you’re very naive. I bet you anything some unholy deal has been cut between Russia and Iran re: Ossetia and the absence of jihaddists exploiting the situation in Southern Ossetia to flex their muscles (Ossetia’s “native” population is primarily eastern Persian, not Georgian or Russian.)

LYnne T. I agree with the points you raised.

All I really want to say is that Russia and The West should come to an agreement on zones of interest.

IN order to do that BOTH SIDES must drop the 30 year old policy…and a very suicidal policy it is… of harrassing and picking at each via various islamist proxies in third-party countries.

That strategy has become a lose-lose situation that is steadily weakening both.

Iran’s nuclear ambitions MUST be stopped and pronto!

At the same time, however, the spread of radical Wahabbist madrassas and the ideology they disseminate all over The West, thanks to our *allies* the Saudis, have to be put out of business.

These *schools* are little more than Hitler youth camps with a darker complexion and their presence on Western soil is a much greater danger than Putin’s Russia.

And we’d be very naive to think otherwise.

You know, I pointed out in a posting yesterday that all of the terror attacks carried out on western soil were committed almost exclusively by either Saudis or Pakistanis, and yet for some unexplainable reason both Pakistan and Saudi Arabi are out *allies* in the war on terror and Russia our enemy.

What economic interests are driving this idiocy?

Jared (TheIriots cousin/baby brother?)

“The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons.”

“And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course.”

To quote (Morgoth, I believe)……

That’s why I keep coming back!!

ps. Im not finding Benjamin sexually exciting. He is very, very, very boring now. Save yourself some time Benjamin (not that the unemployed/able are short of a few hours)… just copy and paste your comments from one thread to the next. They all say the same thing and like most people I scroll through em anyway.

Matt

That’s why I keep coming back!!

I believe that was Brownie.

The sentiment is shared nonetheless.

The Beeb reports that Gary Glitter has chosen to fly to Hong Kong. Put the kettle on Benjamin.

And, really, I fail to see of what relevance Hezbollah’s opinion (or Iran’s) on this matter is at all.

Putin invited Hamas to Moscow in 2006 and Russia has had contacts with Hezbollah for over ten years.

However what all of these murderers had in common is something BOTH The West AND Russia have as their biggest enemy, and yet we cannot come to an entente???

‘We will not take part in any “holy alliance.”‘ Vladimir Putin

‘Russia has always been the most sincere, reliable and consistent defender of the insterests of the Islamic world.’ Vladimir Putin

Don’t think Moscow is really interested, JP.

Why is Russia so concerned about Georgia being an American ally? Because it thinks the US is going to use NATO to invade Russia? Can Putin really think that? The US is stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan and looking nervously at Iran. It is facing many more serious threats to it from Islamists around the world. Surely the US and Russia, which also faces Islamist threats, should be if not settling, at least not enflaming their differences.

The reason the former Eastern European countries are so keen to sign up with NATO is to put some metaphorical “clear water” between them and Russia because they remember only too well how awful it was to be part of Russia. The South Ossetians must be unique in the world into wanting to be reabsorbed into Russia.

OKay so Saakashvili was crazy to go into South Ossetia? But currently it is internationally recognised as part of Georgia. How does an internal invasion (in which if Human Rights Watch is to be believed) resulted in less than 100 deaths justify the Russians invading Georgia, blowing up their defences and taking away their soldiers blindfolded?

I think this is once again all about oil. Russia sees its control of energy as a strategic tool to exercise control over western europe. The trans Georgian pipeline, which they opposed, represents a threat to that. (In 2006 the British government was quite happy to contemplate selling a large chunk of our energy sector to Gazprom, but then the British government still doesn’t seem able to grasp the basic principles of national energy security and just bleats about a free market).

What I really want to know are why a) Russia is digging in in Georgia while claiming to be leaving and b) why are the Italians supporting the Russian line (as I believe they are). Don’t they get their energy supplies for North Africa? Oh and c) at what point did the Russians, after their scorched earth treatment of Chechenya, suddenly get to occupy the higher moral ground?

And would it be worth pointing out to Marko that when Russia drove the nazis out of Hungary in WWII, she prevented the deaths of many, many Jews.

Doesn’t it make one glad that only a few thousand Jews were murdered in 1948 by the Russians? And how grateful we should be that the Russian government decided not to exterminate Soviet Jewry after all? One feels almost as indebted to Holy Russia as after the acquittal in the Beilis trial.

Hmm. Italy: has close energy ties with Algeria and Iran, I think.

(Oh and their prime minister is the most loathsome amoral scumbag to be in a position of such power anywhere in Western Europe for…many decades)

at what point did the Russians, after their scorched earth treatment of Chechnya, suddenly get to occupy the higher moral ground?

Well, quite. (And Note the enthuisastic participation of pro-Russian Federation Chechen troops in the invasion of Georgia)

JP, the war on terror is only one prism through which potential threats to the security of the democratic world can be viewed. Whilst not wishing to downplay the clear importance of a vigorous anti-Islamist policy, it seems likely that a properly belligerent Russia or China would represent a more substantial concern - both to the democratic world itself and to those unfortunate enough to live in totalitarian states that these two countries seem keen to ally with and promote their interests in.

Don’t think Moscow is really interested, JP.

Utter Bollocks, Hasan!

After WWII Europe was divided into western and soviet zones of influence, and so agreements can be struck with Russia.

Russia is, afterall, a profoundly european country.

And nobody can aid and abett the spread of radical whabbist ideology better and faster than The West and America’s “ally”, Saudi Arabia.

JP, the war on terror is only one prism through which potential threats to the security of the democratic world can be viewed. Whilst not wishing to downplay the clear importance of a vigorous anti-Islamist policy, it seems likely that a properly belligerent Russia or China would represent a more substantial concern

May I just point out that in the fifteen or so years since Marko and his ‘entourage’ became involved in Balkan affairs, Europe has gone from having only one Muslim-majority state to having three.

Who has this benefitted?

And some of these ‘poor’ Balkan Muslims have been involved in terror plots, like those at Fort Dix.

No doubt the wahabbist seed capital so thoughfully planted by such dapper and duped individuals like MAH will bear numerous exposive fruits in years to come.

One wonders….are Mr Hoare’s credit cards sharia compliant?

I sure fuckin’ hope so!

Balkan Islam will eventually be used by America against Europe, should Europe get uppity, in much the same way America used Central Asian Islam against the Soviets.

And to just point out how counterproductive, stupid and dangerous this latest “Big bad Russia” scare really is, one has only to visit wahabbist websites to get an idea of just how elated the radicals are.

One commenter described the current tensions as “a gift from Allah”

It just boggles the mind to think of how utterly stupid, clueless and misinformed our entire political class is.

I’d fire the lot of them!

“as far as I know Russia does not use concentration camps, and does not shovel millions of Jews into gas chambers”

Irrelevant nonsense. There were no gas chambers in 1938.

“Nor does it seek to conquer large swathes of Europe as was the Nazis rather obvious intention”

And you know this because?

“and even if it did, it has not got a chance of doing so”

Neither did the Nazis in 1936, silly man.

As usual, we see Benjamin defend a vile totalitarian state. Quelle surprise.

Oh yes, and this sickening drivel:

“Of course, whilst Georgia has made improvements and is more democratic than it was, its hardly got a wonderful record, and nor has Saakashvili”

Great. So that allows little piggy to applaud Russia’s aggression against it.

“Russia is, afterall, a profoundly european country”

Yeeees … if you say so … not according to my Russian acquaintances, who keep stressing that Russia is half central Asian in outlook.

“Doesn’t it make one glad that only a few thousand Jews were murdered in 1948 by the Russians? And how grateful we should be that the Russian government decided not to exterminate Soviet Jewry after all? One feels almost as indebted to Holy Russia as after the acquittal in the Beilis trial”

Can’t be stressed enough! Plus, the Hungarian Jews who were sent to labour camps by the Russians in the late 1940s simply for being ’suspect intellectuals’.

Those defending this sickening, barbarian country are either fools or knaves.

>his misguided support for Israel when it was launching a similarly obnoxious and unwarranted - but oh so well-intentioned

Yes, of course.

All civilized countries would have allowed themselves to be shelled by thousands of rockets, have their soldiers kidnapped and allowed the next country to be set up as a base for its destruction.

Those damn Jews… when will they learn to just lie down and get killed.

BBC News 16.30 today

“Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.
”

So come on all you Russian supporters who claimed there were 2000 dead, what have you to say now about Georgian aggression and viciousness?

‘Mark T - I’m comparing the double standards. Israel trained and armed the Georgian troops that killed 2000 Ossettians and you utter no condemnation’

Has there been any confirmation of this casualty figure, which seems to stem from Russian claims about Georgian ‘ethnic cleansing’? In any case, the current HRW reports indicate that if there is one side that is overwhelmingly responsible for the bulk of civilian deaths and suffering since this latest phase of the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict broke out, and it is the Russian military and their Cossack, Chechen and South Ossetian proxies.

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, the Georgian forces seen in combat were poorly armed with outdated Soviet kit. If they had been armed to the teeth by the Americans and the Israelis, then where were their Apache gunships and Merkava MBTs?

And to follow up from this:

”If the USA and Israel caused the war in South Ossetia by flooding Georgia with arms, how come all the news footage we saw showed Georgians using ex-Soviet kit (from Kalashnikovs to Grad missile launchers and T72s)?’

To clarify: I don’t at all think that the US and Israel ’caused the war in South Ossetia by flooding Georgia with arms’. I do think that Russia engineered the war in order to reassert control over part of its former empire, and to strike a blow against US (and Israeli) influence in the region.

If Georgia wants to be allied to the US or Israel, and to receive weapons from them, then that is its right as a sovereign state. Israeli and US military support to Georgia in no way justifies the Russian invasion.’

Marko, I don’t believe that you’ve swallowed this myth of US-Israeli provocation in the same way that morons like Jared have done. My only point is that the references to such assistance by the Russian media (and useful idiots in the blogosphere like Richard Seymour) are overblown. If American and Israeli arms were as destabilising and as much of a threat to Russian security as Moscow claims, the result would have been a longer war and a higher casualty rate for the Russian army.

I’m sorry to say that Palubiski is right. Although I think someday Russia will eventually become a western-style democracy, this development will be slowed by continued western provocation. It is silly to keep provoking Russia by setting up the missile defence systems, and expanding the irrelevant institution of NATO when they are not ideologically opposed to us.

“Turkey could surprise everyone and play checkmate by coming to an entente with Armenia, and bring Azerbaijan into this entente and big oil prizes for all.”

I think it will take another big natural disaster for that to happen. Hopefully it will happen in Turkey though. I’d only trust the Turks if they invaded azerbaijan and gave us back Nagorno-Karabakh.

As usual, we see Benjamin defend a vile totalitarian state. Quelle surprise.

Well of course, pointing out that modern day Russia is not, in fact, comparable to Nazi Germany means Benjamin is an appeaser and stooge of Putin. This is fantastic stuff!

“What a fucking loonball. The Left turned against Israel because it initiated a war of aggression against its neighbours for territorial reasons”

And this antisemitic slimeball calls others loonball!

Israel was defending itself against ongoing shelling, you fucking antisemitic dimwit.

“Well of course, pointing out that modern day Russia is not, in fact, comparable to Nazi Germany means Benjamin is an appeaser and stooge of Putin”

Learn to read, asshole. Benjamin raised a series of irrelevant claims - Russia has not built concentration camps for Jews, has no aggressive capability against Europe - which also apply to Germany in 1936. Now do check what happened in 1938 and 1939, since you think you are so clever.

And the piggy also defends and appeases the Chinese.

And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course.

Jared 20 August 2008, 4:21 pm

Jared, think what you want about Israel, but at least do so from a position of knowledge rather than ignorant speculation.

1) Israel has never either invaded Palestine, nor illeagally occupied it. Palestine will be the future creation of the State of Israel, presumably as a result of the peace treaty with its beligerant neighbours and more importantly with the residents of the area known as the Occupied Territories. (Although it should be pointed out that those residents and their foolish mouthpieces -i.e. you- are doing everything in their powers to prevent such a sovereignty)

2) When offered a “Palestinian State” (at least three time at the top off my head, ‘48, ‘67 -look up Khartoum Resolutions 1967, and ‘00) the Palestinian Arabs, or their proxies, have rejected it. Thus no such State of Palestine has yet to have existed.

3) Between 1948 and 1967 the region known as Judea and Sammeria was governed by the Arab State of Jordan, which, parenthetically, saw itself as the Palestinian State. The region known as Gaza was governed by Egypt. Neither Arab state sought to create an Arab State of Palestine.

4) In 1967, believing that the Egyptian army was on the verge of crushing the Israeli military, the Jordanian Army launched and attack on Israel, intending to participate in the spoils of war. Thus, rather than territorial expansion, Israel came to posess the West Bank as a result of a Jordanian attack on Israel’s Eastern border.

5) Israel’s legality in controlling the West Bank (of Jordan) is beyond dispute. Subsequent to the 1967 war, the UNSCR 242 linked territorial witdrawal to a peace agreement and Secure and Recognized borders of the State of Israel. Further, UNSCR 242 anticipated that Israel would not withdraw to the 1948 Armistice Lines, but, infact, would draw its final border as a result of a negotiated peace and and end of conflict/end of claims resolution.

So all in all, your one sentence reveals more about your misanthropic ignorance than anything else. Your reflective hatred of Israel (as evident by your ignorant condemnation of it) is clearly symptomatic of the faliciy behind much of the anti-Israel criticism that I hear coming from the left. Legitimate criticism is valid, but ignorant criticism is reflective of something much deeper.

Shall we see now France invade Belgium to annex the Walloons ?

I like the cut of Nearly Oxfordian’s jib. He’s like an even more trenchant version of me. Lots of swearing and not suffering fools gladly. Fuck yeah.

Tagznuzxlszx is an RCPer, so I don’t think taking advice from him is the way forward. And JP has a, ah, rather “single-minded” approach to matters Islamic… Which is not to say one should not take a tough line on Islamist bad guys as well as Russian bad guys. There do sadly seem to be a multiplying number of bad guys around these days.

The Flemish would launch a joint pincer movement from the north in co-operation with the French, I have no doubt. It would be Poland ‘39 all over again.

After WWII Europe was divided into western and soviet zones of influence, and so agreements can be struck with Russia.

So where’s your evidence that Russia wants to? The e-assault on Estonia? The murder of Alexander Litvinenko? The threatening of government officials from Norway or Russia’s treatment of British businessmen?

If the twentieth century has taught us one thing, it’s that when anyone from anywhere tries to bully and threaten democracies, we don’t roll over and play doggo, whether they’re from Berchtesgaden, Moscow, Belgrade or Tehran.

Russia’s made its position quite clear. It prefers to co-operate with the Muslim world - try googling “Putin” and “Ahmadinejad.”

So I guess the Thrice Holy Crusade against the Unspeakable Turk, brandishing our swords and holy icons is off, then.

Balkan Islam will eventually be used by America against Europe, should Europe get uppity, in much the same way America used Central Asian Islam against the Soviets.

So why didn’t we kill them all off when we had the chance? If there’s a Muslim threat in Europe, it lives in Britain, France and Germany, not the Dukagjin and is responsible for 7/7, Glasgow airport, St Michel, Frankfurt, Ramstein etc etc. That’s where the money, the recruits and the ‘anti-imperialists’ eejits who back their every move live. Anyway, all the US needs to do if Europe gets ‘uppity’ is just withdraw the chequebook for the Europeans’ defence.

Please do not feed the Armageddonists.

And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course…

Jared

–

Jared, think what you want about Israel, but at least do so from a position of knowledge rather than ignorant speculation.

1) Israel has [etc]

Joe

–

Joe, that was a great effort.

But somehow, I fear Jared will not absorb the light of your clear historical facts. He will continue to autocondition his own Farfurian Palestine mythology.

A dark age jihadi mindset is incapable of rational thought.

“And nothing at all to do with it’s illegal occupation of Palestine of course.”

Being anti-occupation doesn’t mean that you have to be anti-Israel. A bit of a freudian slip there I think. But that’s all for another debate.

The response is obvious. Pre-emptive strikes against Iran and Syria - just as Russia did to Georgia. Destroy Iranian and Syrian military capability and surround with naval fleet. Blockade and regime change.

Do it to them before they do it to us.

Superb, Joe.

Two tiny (or one, perhaps, not so tiny) points, if I may:

1. Neither Arab state sought to create an Arab State of Palestine -

Nor was there a popular demand by the ‘Palestinians’ for liberation from their forfeign oppressors, Jordan and Egypt, let alone an obsessive, hysterical worldwide movement to liberate them from said foreign oppressors and give them their own state. That hysterical, ignorant movement started only when they were ‘oppressed’ and ‘colonised’ by Jews, those Jews that the PLO and Hamas charters have such nice things to say about and whose nation was scheduled for annihilation in 1967.

2. UNSCR 242 anticipated that Israel would not withdraw to the 1948 Armistice Lines -

nor the 1949 Rhodes lines, aka Green Line.

Otherwise, superb analysis, totally wasted of course on the antisemites who either are incapable of understanding it or wilfully refuse to do so. Knaves and fools - ’twas always thus.

Thanks, Ben (I think; not sure about that ‘Fuck yeah’ bit …).

Not suffering fools gladly is my middle name. It’s a blessing and a curse ;-)

Oh, well, it is always useful to hear from the Ustasha, if only to remind us what we are up against. But surely even you are not quite THIS desperate to get your longed-for war against Russia? Give it up. You are just making yourselves look silly.

Compare Britain’s large vote for Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest with Israel’s large vote for Russia.

Cyprus (a Commonwealth country) was not in it this year, and one in six Greek Cypriots lives in Britain, as we should bear in mind when deciding whether or not Turkey is really any brother of ours, as well as whether or not to support Islamic secessions from Orthodox countries.

Israel, meanwhile, is increasingly full of Russians, let in under the Law of Return, the suicidal essence of Zionism. Some of them are Nazis. And even the rest routinely insist on taking their Israeli Defence Force oaths on the New Testament alone. That stance has nothing to do with Russian Orthodoxy, which keeps Old Testament figures as saints and venerates icons of them. It really cannot be attributed to anything other than a simple dislike of Jews.

Not only Israel, but also America, needs to wake up. If the latter really is determined to treat the Russia of Putin and Medvedev as an enemy (and neoconservative ideology admits of no other approach, since it defines itself by its rejection of the Biblical-Classical synthesis of which Russia is so great a bulwark), then she must face the fact that Israel cannot any longer be regarded as an ally. Israel’s natural alliance is now with Russia.

Indeed, I would second what Ben says. N.O., we probably differ a great deal when it comes to domestic matters, and indeed on many other matters, but you’ve certainly got the certified Morgoth-Thumbs-Up. An Intelligent and Thinking Liberal (I assume). More please!

Thank you Nearly Oxfordian and rens wez.

Sorry I had assumed that the Armistice Line and the Green Line were one and the same. The point being that Israel’s boarders are yet to be defined, and that the ‘48 lines do not actually represent an international border.

To my recollection, the PLO was created in 1964, or thereabout, prior to Israel’s possession of West Bank or Gaza. Of course, in those days they were merely proxies of the Arab States, rather than a true “liberation movement”.

Of course all that is history. (And verifiable.)

Benjamin says:

“Saakashvili of course closed down an opposition TV station while it was on air. According to one report I heard, it was only put back on air after pressure from the US. Saakashvili’’s military attack, which kicked off this mess, seemed inept and curiously timed. One is distrustful of the Russians, but suspicious of the other side too.”

I tend to agree. Whilst Russia’s actions have been reprehensible, have the Georgian leadership really absorbed the lessons of democracy?

If South Ossetians and Abhazians genuinely don’t want to be part of Georgia, why try and make them so? I realise there has been ethnic cleansing of Georgians from those areas, of course. But it was stupid to think you could militarily bring those areas back under central Georgian control while Russia was already on the ground.

The inability of any Western leader to explain why Kosovo has to be independent but not South Ossetia says it all.

We need a principled World Alliance for Democracy that will eschew big power politics.

Israel has once again been very stupid trying to play the international game in this way.

Thanks, Morgoth; the sentiment is reciprocated!

Yes, I describe my position as (true) liberal.

Joe re PLO: yes, that’s when ‘Palestinian liberation’ was invented, with the loudly proclaimed disclaimer that it was purely a ruse to throw the Jews into the sea.

DL’s rant is so silly it’s hilarious. For one thing, he simply doesn’t understand Israel. I doubt that he’s ever been there. Yes, there are many ‘Russians’ in Israel who vote for Russia’s entry. That would have been the situation in 1950 also, had there been a Eurovision contest. If he thinks that on that basis ‘Israel’s natural ally is Russia’, i.e. Eurovision=coinciding of geopolitical interests, then he needs to stop sniffing glue. Ditto for ’suicidal essence of Zionism’. He knows nothing and understands less about fellow-feeling among Jews everywhere and in Israel especially.

So, DL, let me get this straight. Israel’s natural alliance is with Russia because…she is being undermined by anti-semitic Russian-Israelis (even though they still serve in the IDF).

These would-be Trojan Horses show their muscle by voting for the old country in the Eurovision Song Contest. Are you suggesting that a) Greek Cypriot-Britons are disloyal; b) we should ‘bear in mind’ their potential to revolt when making foreign policy decisions; or c) that they are undesirable? There are, as it happens, about as many Turks and Turkish-Cypriots in Britain; should we be feeling the same about them?

Thinking of the ESC, you may also have noticed that Armenia got ten points from Turkey, Serbia ten points from Croatia, and Albania seven from Montenegro. Might it be that people from a particular part of the world can like their region’s style of music without getting too fretful about international relations? Just a thought.

“Israel’s natural alliance is now with Russia.”

Lindsay the loony-tune pops in to make one of his occasional outlandish statements I see.

There is a difference between backing a country and selling them $200 million worth of goods and services which is what Israel. Would you morons say that Israel ‘backs’ Brazil and Greece? Because again, they are both rich markets for Israeli defense contractors. Save the polemic bullshit for Mark Elf.

I was convinced that Wanko Vanilla Whore went all gooey eyed at the Croat nationalists just to be a good mommy’s boy. It seems that any small nationalism that comes under the control of the US boot is to be painted as a plucky little Belgium by the Wanko.

Nearly Oxfordian says

“Learn to read, asshole.”

One of the most ironic statements I have seen on these comment pages.

“Benjamin raised a series of irrelevant claims - Russia has not built concentration camps for Jews……- which also apply to Germany in 1936″.

Dachau was opened in March 1933. While it is true there were no camps specifically for Jews, tens of thousands of people were in concentration camps at the time. I wonder how many concentration camps there are in Russia.

Also, Russia has had the military capacity to destroy the entire world if it chose to. Maybe we should have pre-emptively attacked it in 1991.

“I like the cut of Nearly Oxfordian’s jib. He’s like an even more trenchant version of me.”

Yeah I’d agree with that. You seem as idiotic as he is.

“Tagznuzxlszx is an RCPer, so I don’t think taking advice from him is the way forward.”

The RCP no longer exists. I merely read spiked and agree with much of what they say. I also agree with a similar proportion of what Brett, Gene, and Morgoth have to say. Does this mean I am a brainwashed follower of these 3.

Don’t listen to their arguments, they are witches!!!!!!

“Thanks, Ben (I think; not sure about that ‘Fuck yeah’ bit …).
Not suffering fools gladly is my middle name. It’s a blessing and a curse ;-)”

Ugh can you people please stop wanking each other off online. It’s cringeworthy to watch. Plz boost your low self-esteems elsewhere.

Could you translate that into English from Zogian, the language of your lunatic planet?

The inability of any Western leader to explain why Kosovo has to be independent but not South Ossetia says it all.

Field, try here for some answers.

“Dachau was opened in March 1933″

And was a fully operational extermination camp, with gas chambers, by April 1934, right?

Do learn to read, jerk-off: we were talking about death camps. We don’t have to explain everything in detail to morons with reading comprehension problems.

My self-esteem is fine, thanks for asking. And I must admit it doesn’t exactly suffer a massive blow when I see pond life like you struggling to follow a simple argument in fairly basic English.

Could you translate that into English from Zogian, the language of your lunatic planet?

That was addressed to gadze.

“Ugh can you people please stop wanking each other off online.”

Please. This is a family blog. Kindly take your onanistic fetishes elsewhere you disgusting deviant.

“Does this mean I am a brainwashed follower of these 3.”

No, just hopelessly confused.

The point is that this isn’t about 19th Century great power politics - the west should, where it can, act to promote and protect humanistic principles in international affairs. Firstly, because this is right, and secondly, because it is in our nations’ fundamental interests to do so. This doesn’t mean rolling over in the face of Russian provocations, or any other provocations, be it from Iran, Syria, North Korea or whoever, where that can be avoided.

JP seems to think that Islamist terror is the only problem in town. A cursory glance at the world indicates that there are plenty of potential security problems ranging from bellicose larger nations to failed states to genocide in Darfur to repression in Burma that all require a consistent set of principles to be considered in helping to determine our countries’ actions in response. Sometimes we can’t do the “right” thing, but I am constantly amazed at the lack of joined up thinking displayed by many regarding these sorts of issues. People need to go back to Blair’s 1999 Chicago speech.

Please, Ben, you have just ruined a perfectly nice chocolate chip cookie for me by mentioning Blair …

I would have thought that it’s possible to apply consistent humanistic principles without resorting to Blair.

I’m not going to lower myself to your fairly basic English. Try the Oxford English Dictionary Anglo-Zog, Zog-English edition. The Wanko knows perfectly well what I mean.

Do learn to read, jerk-off:…..We don’t have to explain everything in detail to morons with reading comprehension problems.”

This coming from the guy who accused me of using “middle class” as an insult, when in fact, I pointing out that Graham was doing it. You crack me up.

“And was a fully operational extermination camp, with gas chambers”

There are significant differences between a concentration camp and extermination camp. Just lumping the two in the same category shows a rather simplistic understanding of what went on at the time Nearly Oxfordian.

Now back to the argument. Can you please point out where Putin or Mevedev have called for the purging of an entire ethnic group from Europe (not just Russia). Has the group in question been stripped of citizenship, and encouraged to emigrate? Were tens of thousands of them and other undesirables interned in purpose-built concentration camps by the summer of 2000? Do their writings call for the colonisation of huge parts of Europe. All these things had occurred in Nazi Germany by 1936.

If Zhirinovsky or the National Bolsheviks were in charge of Russia, I would accept your point, however they are not, so your argument is rather tenuous.

“Could you translate that into English from Zogian, the language of your lunatic planet?”

I mean English isn’t my first language, but what gadze says makes perfect sense. Perhaps Nearly Oxfordian should take his own advice.

“No, just hopelessly confused.”

This coming from someone who thought I was a member of a party which ceased to exist in 1997.

I see what you mean Ben, when you say that you and N.O. have so much in common.

jonh p:

Russia is never going to blossom into the flower of democracy we’d all love to see, so perhaps we should just accept that, muster some humility and cut a deal with them. with some stupid missile shield and to just come to an entente cordiale?

Russia is never going to blossom into the flower of democracy we’d all love to see, so perhaps we should just accept that, muster some humility and cut a deal with them.

Let’s put aside the historical context that produced entente cordiale for the sake of simplifying the argument (after all this is just a comment box).

The fact is that something like that has been tried. It doesn’t work, because any sign of friendship towards Russia on the part of the west has been systematically perceived by those in power in russia as a sign of weakness.

An example, of a symbolic nature: in 2005 the europeans decided to celebrate the 60th aniversary of the end of the second world war in Moscow. Instead of celebrating it on 8 May, they accepted to celebrate it on 9 May.

9 May happens to be also the day of Europe, the day in which we europeans celebrate the schuman declaration. So, the countries of the EU gave up on celebrating their day. If you add to that the fact that some countries, like the Chec Republic, changed the day of the celebration of the end of the war from 9 to 8 after they got rid of communism, you see what I mean.

small signs of weakness and ‘compromise’ have been given to russia. to someone who has good intentions, they look like signs of good will, but the problem is that they are not reciprocal.

Any 9 year-old kid who has had to cope with bullies at school can understand what I mean.

On the part of Russia, all we see are displays of might, even in fields that could be seen as neutral, such as culture. All occasions are good to remind the west that the vocation of Russia is to be an imperial power.

More than that: Putin and the russian nationalists in general believe that the experience of european integration is doomed to be an epi-phenomen, and they are willing to give a help.

so, the perspective of the relations US-Russia is a bit different if you see it from europe.

Whatever the degree of authenticity the commitment that Sakashvilli may have towards democracy, when he puts the EU flag behind him when he addresses the people, there is some symbolism in it. You cannot wait for countries like Georgia to become perfect democracies to support them. On the contrary, by supporting them you will be able to influence the regime in the direction of full democratization, that is by demanding in exchange that certain criteria or standards be met.

I just gave two symbolic examples, but symbols are important. However it would not be difficult for anyone to remember practical examples.

The problem is that the western europeans have become a kind of fat cows (with due respect to the fat cows who are very nice creatures). On one hand, there is not a serious effort to support the democratization of societies like Georgia, on the other, the real situation in Russia is downplayed, despite everything that is happening in there, and people just take it for granted that that’s the way it is…

The mentality of appeasement is very widespread, overtly or in subtle ways. The public opinion is always ready to give credit to arguments such as the wounded pride of russia, to find it natural that they interfere in the affairs of their neighbours, that ‘we’ should not provocke them, etc. That gives support to the option of not tackling problems. It’s easier to just wait for them to vanish by themselves…

All of that gives signals to Russia.

Now, back to entente, or to the comparison between Germany in the 30s and Russia today…

I find analogies very useful in my effort to grasp a given problem, but usually prefer to avoid using them, because there are always arguments to be found against them… you never find the same exact combination of elements and circumstances.

but In these questions we can find very worrying analogies with Europe in the inter-war period.

Yes you stupid twat, like David T and every other half sensible person round here thinks too. Spiked is the same thing as the RCP - it’s the same people. It’s an organic continuation. Why so touchy matey - have I struck a nerve?

“Please, Ben, you have just ruined a perfectly nice chocolate chip cookie for me by mentioning Blair …”

I should’ve listened to tagnuzszlsxs - it could never have lasted. Sniffle.

Tone can nibble my crumbs any day.

I feel I may have regressed into some sort of Carry On alternate persona here.

Learn to read, asshole. Benjamin raised a series of irrelevant claims - Russia has not built concentration camps for Jews, has no aggressive capability against Europe - which also apply to Germany in 1936. Now do check what happened in 1938 and 1939, since you think you are so clever.

So when someone makes a direct comparison between the “authoritarianism and brutalism” of Nazi Germany and modern Russia (or any other country) it’s unreasonable to bring up the subject of the concentrations camps? Oh, hang on, you’re claiming that Russia is like Nazi Germany because it doesn’t have concentration camps.
And you do realise that the logic of MAH’s article is that Russia is not only comparable to Nazi Germany, and he doesn’t say “in 1936″, but is now more of a threat than the Soviet Union was at any time since WWII.
It’s nice that you are good at swearing and everything - it seems to quite impress some of the more juvenile people here but you should really stop trying to defend the indefensible.

seems to quite impress some of the more juvenile people here

Oh Andrew. You really don’t do snide very well. Please try to avoid in future.

Though I think MAH’s analogy (not in this article, of course) is perhaps a tad overblown, I think Sarah Franco’s excellent comment above is really all one needs to say on the matter. I don’t really think picking over the specifics of an analogy really helps any further. But I suppose some of the more juvenile people here might enjoy that sort of thing, hmmm?

jesus if you are trying to scare me then you just did a helluva good job!

If it serves as any comfort, best to remember that democracies are slow to act and may well sacrifice Georgia but, if pushed too far they will respond and will go all of the way

Benjamin raised a series of irrelevant claims - Russia has not built concentration camps for Jews, has no aggressive capability against Europe - which also apply to Germany in 1936. Now do check what happened in 1938 and 1939, since you think you are so clever.

I just don’t think Russia today is comparable with Nazi Germany even in 1936, much less in 1938, 39 or 41. There are many reasons for this, much of which I have outlined (including economic). Russia has not instituted campaigns against the Jews and will not be building concentration camps and gas chambers for them in few years time. Moreover, while Germany had both the means, motive and opportunity to conquer vast swathes of Europe (and did), Russia cannot (even if a case can be made that it intends to).

And the piggy also defends and appeases the Chinese.

Absolutely not. I have written about my opposition to them here at HP. I merely said I do not view the Chinese regime as specifically fascist. That does not mean it is not repressive, totalitarian and responsible for much death.

I think your responses to my views are somewhat comedy pastiche.

If i may, by 1938 and Munich, the T4 program was in full swing, a vital ‘technocratic’ and organisational step towards the Holocaust in the death camps and was talked about within international ‘academic’ eugenics circles.

Marko’s analogy is of course overblown. Putin has none of the ambition of Hitler, nor the ideological underpinning, however machiavellian and ruthless he may be. Yet Russia has become a pale facsmilie, a mockery even of the potential that was abundant in 1991. Neither the West nor Putin will go to the button over Georgia but see how a fragile Russian economy, bouyed up on the vagaries of gas and oil prices likes a return to the Cold war. Alas God help the land of miracles…

“Marko’s analogy is of course overblown.”

Well, yes, but one doesn’t like to criticise you know.

“Yes you stupid twat, like David T and every other half sensible person round here thinks too. Spiked is the same thing as the RCP - it’s the same people. It’s an organic continuation. Why so touchy matey - have I struck a nerve?”

Can somebody tell Ben the difference between an online magazine and a political party.

Because RCP is no longer a political party, it does not aim to recruit members. Therefore, the only people who could potentially be described as “RCP’ers” are people like Frank, Ann, Brendan, Mick, and the former members of the RCP that continue to promote the ideology of the RCP through spiked.

I, on the other hand, merely read spiked, and agree with most of the opinions on there. I also read Harry’s Place just as frequently. Therefore, by your logic. I should be called an HP’er as well.

How is pointing out the hypocrisy in your statement “being touchy”. Methinks you are getting desperate with your comebacks.

Some valid comparsions have been made in the mainstream media between the invasion of Czechoslovakia 40 years ago by Russia and that country’s recent activity in Georgia.As the SPGB said about Czechoslovakia invasion those many years ago , we feel its worth repeating .

“The Socialist Party of Great Britain wishes workers there every success in establishing the framework within which a genuine socialist movement can grow, namely political democracy…
…Russia is a great capitalist power and behaves like one.
The Socialist Party of Gt. Britain abhors this latest display of imperialist brutality, all the more vile as it has been committed in the name of socialism, and calls upon the workers the world over to oppose capitalism, east and west, and to unite for Socialism.”
http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2008/08/power-politics-and-czechoslovakia.html

And this is part of our statement concerning Georgia’s and Russia’s war .

“Our hearts go out to the many thousands of ordinary working people who have borne the brunt of suffering in this war, as they do in every war – cowering terrified in basements as the shells burst above them, jumping to their death from burning buildings, trudging along the roads tired, hungry and thirsty in the summer heat …

And yet we also have to say something that must sound heartless in the circumstances. The majority of these ordinary working people – of the adults among them – share responsibility for their current plight. Because it was they who demonstrated and voted for the politicians who ordered the shelling and the bombing. And most of them, it appears, are still ready to demonstrate and vote for the same politicians. Because they still believe that the location of state borders matters more, infinitely more than their own lives or the lives of their children. Because they still view as their enemy ordinary working people who happen to be of different descent and speak a different language. These delusions, for so long as they persist, guarantee that this will not be the last war. ”
http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2008/08/war-in-georgia.html

and from another

“…The World Socialist Movement is unique as a political movement in clearly and consistently expressing its opposition to war throughout the last hundred years. This is not selective: we oppose all wars, and have done so from World War 1 to Gulf War 2. Our opposition has a simple basis: war is fought over issues of interest to employers, landlords and bosses – the capitalist class, in short – while it is workers, in uniform or civilian clothing, who are the cannon-fodder. The overwhelming majority of members of the global working class – whether from Georgia (Caucasus) or Georgia (USA), have no interests at stake worth shedding a drop of blood over.”
http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2008/08/cold-war-re-heats.html

Oh dear, Ben, where’s your sense of your humour? ;-(((((

A semi-literate tosser like Tag tries to teach me the difference between labour and death camps … but still doesn’t understand what the original argument was about.
Weep for his parents.

Andrew, do try to keep up. Perhaps you need to eat more fish. The original argument was that Russia is nothing like the Third Reich, because (a) it doesn’t have a coherent policy of murdering all the Jews, (b) it can’t conquer all of Europe. I replied by saying that (a) Germany didn’t have such a policy in 1936 - Wannsee came years later; (b) neither could Germany in 1936.
That didn’t stop these things happening over time, hence the original argument fails.
Now go and ask someone to explain this to you. I need to go and do something more useful than holding your hand.

in my previous comment the first 2 paragraphs are quotations from jonh p.

then, about this argument, also by jonh p:

“”"”After WWII Europe was divided into western and soviet zones of influence, and so agreements can be struck with Russia.

Russia is, afterall, a profoundly european country.”"”"

the mere expression ‘zones of influence’ tells it all.

jonh, it doesn’t cease to amaze me how you claim freedom for yourself but are ready to deny it to others… just imagine the citizens who happen to belong to those zones of influence.

it bothers you that your freedom and security and way of life is under threat by islamic fundamentalists… but it doesn’t bother you that the freedom and security of other peoples can be undermined by the behaviour of russia.

that kind of ‘realpolitik’ mentality has produced very tragic results in human history. half a dozen powerful people sit on a table, grab some maps and say, this is for me, this is for you… and usually those who live in the territories to be included in this division of areas of influence never had a word to say about it.

Amazing. I return here after leaving in disgust a couple of years ago and nothing has changed. A few bizarrely tenacious sane people who want a debate holding the line against a horde of abusive, sneering tossers.

Fuck you all. Going by the current obsessions of the Decentists, the human race deserves the nuclear holocaust so many of you seem determined to provoke.

Bleurgh.

Regarding the Putin-Hitler comparison: Hitler was in power for six years before he began to kill on the scale achieved by Putin in his first year in power.

Putin’s war in Chechnya, launched in the year he assumed office, killed something in the range of 25-50,000 civilians, if not more. This involved Russian troops randomly rounding up adult males who happened to be ethnic Chechens and making them ‘disappear’, often after severe torture.

Hitler came to power in 1933, but didn’t begin to kill on such a scale until 1939. The 1937 bombing of Guernica killed several hundred people. The 1938 Kristallnacht pogrom killed at least 91 Jews. The mass killing of the handicapped under the T4 action, which Socialrepublican refers to, didn’t get going until 1939.

So by any reckoning, Putin’s kill-toll at the present time is worse than Hitler’s was at the time of Munich.

Having said that, I’m entirely ready to recognise the differences between Hitler and Putin. Why are Benji and co. so afraid of recognising the similarities ?

I fear that even if Putin were to dress up in a brown uniform, grow a little moustache and begin ’shovelling millions of Jews into gas chambers’ (to use Benji’s words), Benji and his anti-war pals would still devote all their energies to attacking those of us who call for resistance to him. They oppose resistance, not because they think Putin isn’t like Hitler, but because they’d oppose resistance even if they thought he were like Hitler.

Do I think Putin is going to start ’shovelling millions of Jews into gas chambers’ ? No.

Do I think Putin is going to wage futher wars of territorial expansion and kill large numbers of people before he’s through ? Yes.

Superb, Marko.

As to Benjamin, you must remember that he supports the Chinese dictatorship in deed, even if in his weasely words he denies this. It’s all of a piece. Maybe he manages to assuage his conscience in this way, assuming he has one.

“by 1938 and Munich, the T4 program was in full swing”

Well, my dateline was 1936, not 1938.

The Soviet gulags are not that far back in history that we can simply ignore that they ever existed. We know what Moscow is capable of - and where Putin comes from.

Report from Associated Press 21 August

Russian forces took up positions Thursday at the entrance to Georgia’s main Black Sea port city, excavating trenches and setting up mortars facing the city despite Russia’s promise to pull back troops from territory deep inside Georgia.
Several armored personnel carriers and troop trucks blocked the bridge that is the only land entrance to Poti and another group of APCs and trucks were positioned in a nearby wooded area.
Although Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has promised that his forces would pull back by Friday, Russian troops appear to be settling in for a long presence, raising concern about whether Moscow is aiming for a lengthy and intimidating occupation of its small, pro-Western neighbor.
An EU-sponsored cease-fire says both Russian and Georgian forces must move back to positions they held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in Georgia’s separatist republic of South Ossetia, which has close ties to Russia. The agreement also says Russian forces can work in a so-called “security zone” that extends 7 kilometers (4.3 miles) into Georgia from South Ossetia.
Poti, however, is at least 95 miles (150 kilometers) west of the nearest point in South Ossetia. It’s also Georgia’s key oil port.Russian tanks, trucks and troops meanwhile continued to hold positions around the strategically key city of Gori and in Igoeti, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of the Georgian capital Tbilisi.
The warfare in a nation straining to escape Moscow’s influence has sent tensions between Moscow and the West to some of their highest levels since the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
Along the main highway from Gori to Tbilisi, Russian peacekeepers stopped cars and checked documents of passengers. In Gori itself, Russian troops limited access to residents and turned away foreign journalists. In a back alley, dozens of people waited for promised food.
At a military training school in the mountain town of Sachkhere, a Georgian sentry said Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers had shown up the day before and demanded to be let in, leaving only after a 30-minute standoff. He said the Russians vowed to blow up facilities in the village of Osiauri.

Well come on you Russia supporters, let’s hear your rationale for this.

Come on, Mrs Ben.

This is nothing like 1930s Europe.

So be quiet!

I have made no reference to the 1930s. I am talking about now and asking why Russia has not withdrawing its forces as it signed up to do but instead is continuing to occupy an independent state illegally.

And today further independent confirmation comes that they not only lied about the number of casualties in South Ossetia but also about dropping cluster bombs. See below. How is all this justified by its supporters?

NYT: “In the Georgian village of Shindisi on Wednesday, three journalists from The New York Times were present when a researcher from Human Rights Watch found two unexploded cluster munitions on the ground.

The question of whether in the conflict Russia used cluster munitions, which are weapons that release hundreds of bomblets when they explode, has been a source of intense dispute. Russia has vehemently denied using them and called allegations that it used those munitions “lies” that were prepared before the war. But there have been many indications that cluster munitions were in fact used.

Reporters and photographers for The Times have found debris from SS-21 and BM-21 rockets, both of which can carry cluster munitions, on the ground in areas attacked by Russia, including the port of Poti, the village of Variani and the city of Gori.

Witnesses have described the bomblets detonating around them, and three impact craters in Stalin Square in Gori appear to have been made by the cluster bombs that detonated simultaneously early in the war, killing several civilians and a Dutch journalist.”

“by 1938 and Munich, the T4 program was in full swing”

Not true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/t4.html

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005200

So, N.O., you agree that Russia in 2008 is like Nazi Germany?

Also “As to Benjamin, you must remember that he supports the Chinese dictatorship in deed, even if in his weasely words he denies this” is one of the weakest arguments I’ve seen this place. Person A supports Country X even though Person A denies it? What sort of argument is that?

Mark, do you own this site?

No?

Then don’t tell people to be quiet, ignorant creep.

Herman, you are talking nonsense. Benjamin supports the Chinese tax system. He can whine all he likes about not liking them, but his actions prove otherwise.

I never said that Russia was ‘like Nazi Germany’. I addressed the spurious arguments that said there was no similarity in any way, arguments that relied on ignorance and/or falsification of 1930s history.

So Russia has made its point, signed the ceasefire and promised to leave. Why hasn’t it retreated to the security border zone and started pressing for integration/independence for Akbhazia and South Ossetia? What is it doing digging in and blockading Georgia’s main port?

Still seems to me it is after the oil pipeline. Maybe it wasn’t 100% sure where it ran until it invaded and now it realises it is deeper into Georgia than anticipated and occupying S Ossetia and a border strip is not enough ground to get control of it? Hence the entrenchment at the port?

I never said that Russia was ‘like Nazi Germany’. I addressed the spurious arguments that said there was no similarity in any way, arguments that relied on ignorance and/or falsification of 1930s history.

So you agree that Marko’s article was an over-blown, hysterical rant with little basis in reality? Good good

Benjamin supports the Chinese tax system. He can whine all he likes about not liking them, but his actions prove otherwise.

WTF? Someone pays taxes and that makes them a supporter of a dictatorship? You are a nutter.

Much as I am reluctant to believe any one side in this sort of dispute, I have to point out that everything the Russians have claimed, since entering Georgia, to be the truth, has turned out to be lies. They lied about the number of casualties, lied about using cluster bombs, lied about leaving.

Andrew, do try to keep up. Perhaps you need to eat more fish. The original argument was that Russia is nothing like the Third Reich, because (a) it doesn’t have a coherent policy of murdering all the Jews, (b) it can’t conquer all of Europe. I replied by saying that (a) Germany didn’t have such a policy in 1936 - Wannsee came years later; (b) neither could Germany in 1936.
That didn’t stop these things happening over time, hence the original argument fails.

The original argument, the one that Benjamin was responding to, was that Russia resembles, note the use of the present tense, Nazi Germany. It doesn’t say it resembles Nazi Germany as it was in 1936 or that it is on the road to becoming something like Nazi Germany, it makes a direct comparison in terms of its authoritarianism, brutality and expansionism and the threat it poses to the rest of Europe. Of course Russia might become even more brutal, authoritarian and expansionist than it is now but we don’t know, whereas we do know what the Nazis did after 1936.
Not only is the comparison spurious for any number of reasons even if you leave aside the issue of the concentration camps, it used to be the case that comparisons with Nazi Germany were considered both unhelpful to an argument and in rather bad taste, no matter how nasty the people in question, and Putin is particularly nasty.
Now if you want to defend Marko’s argument that’s up to you,
but what I was really objecting to originally was that because Benjamin pointed out it’s flaws he was smeared as an apologist for
Russia.

Well come on you Russia supporters, let’s hear your rationale for this.

Oh for god’s sakes!

I’m not a Russia supporter, but look, you run a missile shield right up to Russia’s western border, you cosy up to the thugs running Georgia, and then you goad and you harrass and you taunt until you get a reaction da widdle bear.

Then in true racist form we say, without the slightest qualms whatsoever, that Russia “has reverted to type”.

Saying the same things arbout Islamist aggressions or about Muslims “reverting to type” will get ya drawn and quartered.

What a load of stupid and counterproductive bullshit.

With the foreign policy idiots we have is it any wonder that 911 was the second time the WTC had been attacked?

Taken once, shame on you; taken twice, shame on me.

When some jihadist detonates the first WMD in a major western city, and absolute certainty in my humble opinion, people won’t give a shit about Georgia, pipelines, missile shields OR Russia.

The people here getting all excited about Russia, like Mrs ben and others, only do so because they are woefully unaware of just how precarious, vulnerable and insecure we ourselves have now become.

We galavant about the globe brandishing the banner of democracy and human rights as a smokescreen for various goepolitical aims and objectives, and like so many joyous tits remain totally unaware that the nature of the threats we now face have completely changed and are perhaps much greater than those of the cold war.

john, it doesn’t cease to amaze me how you claim freedom for yourself but are ready to deny it to others… just imagine the citizens who happen to belong to those zones of influence.

I didn’t create those zones of influence, Sarah, Churchill and the Americans did.

So don’t accuse me of denying freedom to others.

Freedom, human rights, holocausts, genocides…..all of these once sacrocant concepts are now haranssed to narrow, selfish geo-political goals and are bandied about until they are leached of all meaning and emotional impact.

That is very, VERY wrong, and it is people like MAH who’ve helped create that moral vacum within which further and greater atrocities now become easier to commit.

The best example I can think of is our treatment of Serbia and Kosovo.

By all international standards Serbia is not just a freer and more democratic country than either Kosovo or Albania, it is also multi-ethnic, but yet it was democratic Serbia we bombed and the Albanians thugs that we protected and then placed into power.

The spoiled boomers running things are so blinded by greed, that they’ve seriously compromised The West’s security by establishing foreign policies and engaging in overseas actions that far from enhanceing our levels of security, actually leave us far more vulnerable than we’ve ever been at any time in the past.

Like i said above the missil shield is but a maginot line pushed nad promoted by cynical defense contracters who either know it’s utterly useless, or who just won’t admit (compte de banque oblige!) that the threats we face have changed.

John Palubiski supports the Hezbollah/Ahmadinejad position on Russia and Georgia. An anti-Islamist he isn’t.

And despite his Polish background, he supports giving back the Russians their sphere of control in Europe. A patriot he isn’t.

He is a lying windbag, a pro-jihadi charlatan and a traitor to his country.

The democratic West would be a bit more secure if scum like Palubiski - who will always, always support Europe’s enemies - would just go back to Tehran or Riyadh and wear their burkhas quietly.

Mrs Ben/Nearly Oxfordian -

My tongue was firmly in my cheek.

“A semi-literate tosser like Tag….doesn’t understand what the original argument was about”

“Andrew, do try to keep up. Perhaps you need to eat more fish. The original argument was that Russia is nothing like the Third Reich”

“The original argument, the one that Benjamin was responding to, was that Russia resembles….Nazi Germany. It doesn’t say it resembles Nazi Germany as it was in 1936 or that it is on the road to becoming something like Nazi Germany, it makes a direct comparison in terms of its authoritarianism, brutality and expansionism and the threat it poses to the rest of Europe.”

Ooops, N.O. humiliates himself yet again…..

Just out of curiosity N.O., how old are you?

John P - I didn’t see reports of a missile shield being installed in Georgia. Maybe I was reading the wrong papers? And as for cosying up to thugs, I suppose Russia never does that?

If Georgia is officially an independent state, why should it behave and why should everyone treat it as though it is still part of the Soviet block? The hard fact is that it, and indeed most of East Europe wants to distance itself politically as far as possible from Russia.

With the threats of Islam and a rising China on its other borders, why is Russia picking a fight with a small country on its western flank. What intelligence is telling it that NATO plans to attack it? Any fool can see this is not on the cards.

Russia may have oil and gas but it needs to ramp up its economy and is not going to do this by fighting its near neighbours and antagonising western Europe. What you seem to be saying is that as Russia is a bully we should all give way to its bullying and let it take over parts of its old empire again by invasion if necessary.

Bullies and their appeasers are always with us I suppose

Mrs Ben is being very good on this thread. (As the patronisometer ticks up several notches - sorry.)

Tag - everyone else worked out where you were coming from because you defended the spiked people at the drop of a hat. It wasn’t difficult. You can deny your leanings all you want, but you are definitely mad keen on the old RCP set. I mean, some of the stuff they say is quite good - I find myself agreeing with them on technology issues like GM crops and their general scepticism about the further reaches of the environmental movement. Stopped clocks are right twice a day. But you have the air of the acolyte. ‘Nuff said.

With the threats of Islam and a rising China on its other borders, why is Russia picking a fight with a small country on its western flank. What intelligence is telling it that NATO plans to attack it? Any fool can see this is not on the cards.

Mrs Ben, The missile shield is slated for Poland and will be right on Russia’s western border.

That is an act of hostility just as Russia’s attempts to install nuclear missiles on Cuba’s soil was an act of hostility.

It’s a bit like pointing a loaded revolver right at someone’s head.

Missile shields will do nothing to protect us against freelance jihadists intent on causing massive civilian casualties, and it is those jihadists that will attack us, not Russia.

The only time Russia ‘invaded’ Euuope was when she drove back Napoleon from Moscow all the way back to Paris, some most europeans probably favoured.

With the threats of Islam and a rising China on its other borders, why is Russia picking a fight with a small country on its western flank.

Picking a fight?

Russia didn’t pick a fight, Georgia did.

And seeings we’re facing the same threats as well, why are we going up to bat for worthless Georgian thug who appears to have kicked off the present hostilities?

Oil?

And as I said in an earlier comment Marko is wrong about just about everything.

Thanks to his *humanitarian* interventions in the Balkans, Europe has gone from having only one muslim-majority country to having three.

And don’t give me that line about Balkan Islam being of the gentle Sufi variety because all three will radicalise thanks to Saudi funds, funds the Saudis glean from OUR business dealings with them.

It just doesn’t get dumber than that.

John Palubiski supports the Hezbollah/Ahmadinejad position on Russia and Georgia. An anti-Islamist he isn’t.

Hezbollah couldn’t find Russia on a map, and I believe I’ve already stated on several occassion that I’m in favour of taking out Iran’s nuclear capacities.

Now go take your meds, you sick warmonger.

“Russia didn’t pick a fight, Georgia did”

Yes, Georgia’s eye was hurting Russia’s elbow. Just as Czechoslovakia’s eye was hurting Germany’s elbow.

Now bugger off, sick apologist for mass murderers.

Tag, in just what make-believe world are you living? You are still incapable of analysing a piece of text that my 10-year old nephew can manage quite easily. Ask someone to help you, because you are just making an ass of yourself … again.

OK, Mark ;-)

“Russia didn’t pick a fight, Georgia did”

That’s pretty much what many respectable news outlets have been saying.

Georgia though it had NATO onside to the point where it could get away with hit and run attacks.

The fact they misplayed their hands hardly makes me an apologist for mass murderers.

jonh:

“I didn’t create those zones of influence, Sarah, Churchill and the Americans did.

So don’t accuse me of denying freedom to others.”

yes, it was not you, but that does not refute my claim.

For my part, I may seem utopic to you, but I remember having a conversation recently with a russian Human Rights activist, whom I asked how things were going, and the picture was depressing. The mere fact that I was interested to know was a stimulus to this person. Maybe it’s my Christian background, I feel a moral duty to support people who which to be free.

One of the ways I try to give my small contribution is by deconstructing that mental frame that is so deeply embeded in academics, politicians and their advisers, who look at the maps but fail to see the common people.

now, about this:

“”"The best example I can think of is our treatment of Serbia and Kosovo.

By all international standards Serbia is not just a freer and more democratic country than either Kosovo or Albania, it is also multi-ethnic, but yet it was democratic Serbia we bombed and the Albanians thugs that we protected and then placed into power.”"”

When Serbia was bombed it was not a democratic power. I am sure you know that. Once again, it amazes me the lack of sympathy you show towards oppressed people.

Anyway I am not going into this discussion, in case you ever visited my blog you may know what I think of Serbia and Kosova, but here are two gifts for you (no irony),

http://invisiblesights.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/reality-bites-oh-yeah/

the author of this blog writing in democratic serbia receives regular threats for daring to express herself in this tone.

and here, it’s just a photo I’d like to share

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sarahfranco/2296814460/

“That’s pretty much what many respectable news outlets have been saying”

Many ‘respectable’ news outlets spew outright lies day in, day out.

My, the joys of reading the losers!

You’ve lost. Deal with it.

Georgia in NATO or the EU? Forget it. Ukraine? Never seriously considered for it by anyone except themselves. The Balts wouldn’t get in if they were applying now, and NATO would find any excuse whatever to avoid intervening if Russia ever went into them. You are now only allowed in if you don’t actually face any threat, and even then only if Russia says so.

As for Israel, the world’s overwhelming response is now “Who cares?” A product of the ferociously pro-Palestinian Chicago Democratic machine is about to become President of the United States. As soon as he does, expect Zionist sentiment in every governing class on earth (those that even have any - most don’t) to evaporate overnight. That includes in both the Labour and the Conservative Parties in Britain.

You’ve lost. Deal with it.

And don’t give me that line about Balkan Islam being of the gentle Sufi variety because all three will radicalise thanks to Saudi funds, funds the Saudis glean from OUR business dealings with them.

Yup, the non-Orthodox people of the Balkans can only find their true nature by giving up the beer, swap burqas for bikinis, and start peddling narrow-minded filth. Spoken like a true Islamist.

Hezbollah couldn’t find Russia on a map

“Putin invited Hamas to Moscow in 2006 and Russia has had contacts with Hezbollah for over ten years.”

Try reading the thread before you post. How many more anti-semitic murderers are you going to shill for?

It appears nasrallah isn’t the only one infected with the bug of premature gloating. david lindsay insanely conflates the russian action in georgia with the defeat of the evil zionists and the West in general. He believes his wishful thinking re: obama and the “chicago machine” to be fact, even though Obama has made it clear he stands with israel. I find it particularly loathsome that he actually is pleased that all those ex-Soviet republics in the Baltic and elsewhere shouldn’t expect Western help and are under Russia’s heel again.

“the joy of reading the losers.” you idiot, the game has barely begun.

The maniacal cackling of DL convinces only himself. What a sad little prat.

For my part, I may seem utopic to you, but I remember having a conversation recently with a russian Human Rights activist, whom I asked how things were going, and the picture was depressing. The mere fact that I was interested to know was a stimulus to this person. Maybe it’s my Christian background, I feel a moral duty to support people who which to be free.

Sarah, I’m quite sure everything that russian human rights activist said was true. Putin is a dictator and Russia’s rather short on both democracy and basic freedoms.

That said, if we want Russia to show increased respect for human rights, then we must engage with her in such a way that any violation of those rights would cost Russia dearly, either financially or in terms of international prestige.

Now, courting some thugs in the Caucasus, themselves with dubious democratic credentials, while at the same time installing a missile shield right on Russia’s border IS NOT the way to go about it.

Russia has opted to fight a new Cold War against the West, so there is no point in labouring under the delusion that it will join with us to contain the Iranian nuclear threat,

Wrong.

If we’d forget about some two-bit pipeline and a useless and expensive missile shield, Russia would come on board in a new york minute.

And when Russia provocatively attempted to plant nuclear missiles on Cuba’s soil back in 1962, Marko, I suppose it was the United States and NOT Russia that was opting for a cold war!

Russian nukes in Cuba=’s Missile shield in Poland

To sacrifice Georgia - a loyal ally of Britain, the US and Israel, and the third-largest contributor of allied troops to Iraq - in the naive belief that a sufficient amount of grovelling will dissuade one sworn enemy from joining with another, can only strengthen and encourage both enemies.

And as for sending signals of cowardice to the thugs in Iran, didn’t the UK do just that when it cravenly folded in the face of Saudi threats over a certain military contract?

And the refusal of Western security and foreign policy circles, Mr Hoare, to even use terms such as “jihadist” and Islamic terrorism” when discussing issues of national security, for fear of causing offense, is perhaps the best signal of I can think of that would embolden Iran.

Iran’s leaders have been showing more and more spunk for a number of years now, long before Gerogia became an issue, and they have done so because The West wobbles and wavers in its limp and confused response to radical Islam.

And even at that, is anyone really sure the nutcases in Tehran even assess danger and risk in the way cautious, rational westerners would?

How can we be sure Iran’s Islamist leaders would even care if a strike on Israel would lead to Israeli retaliations that could kill half of all Iranians.

The Islamic world ( I’m feeling a spot of islamophobia comin’ on!) doesn’t quite value human life the way we in The West do, and so to brazenly assume that Iran’s leadership could be expected to conduct themsleves logically and humanely, with a eye to keeping civilian casualties to a minimum, is both stupid and arrogant.

Seeings the incredible and utterly pathological Jew-hatred ciruclating all over the Mid-East, would NATO’s action or non-action in defense of Georgia have any bearing at all on how Tehran thinks or reacts?.

Had we a few serious and legitimate Islamic studies faculties, instead of the Saudi funded hacks currently populating our universities, we might have a better assessment of all of these factors

“Tag - everyone else worked out where you were coming from because you defended the spiked people at the drop of a hat.”

I defended them because David T was making idiotic and untrue accusations at the RCP. If someone here criticised their excessive attacks on the Free Tibet campaign, I would not defend them.

“I mean, some of the stuff they say is quite good - I find myself agreeing with them on technology issues like GM crops and their general scepticism about the further reaches of the environmental movement.”

I agree with that and the majority of their views. However, I disagree with their analysis of the Russian “Revolution”, and I also believe they are too excessive when criticising liberal interventionism, and go a little too far when defending China.

“Stopped clocks are right twice a day. But you have the air of the acolyte. ‘Nuff said.”

Typical HP, instead of responding to what I say, just call me a cult member over and over again. How pathetic.

“Russia didn’t pick a fight, Georgia did”

“Yes, Georgia’s eye was hurting Russia’s elbow. Just as Czechoslovakia’s eye was hurting Germany’s elbow.
Now bugger off, sick apologist for mass murderers.”

Georgia started this war by attacking South Ossetia. Obviously you have problems with reading comprehension.

Also, the Russians have been no more violent during this war than the Americans have been when invading Iraq, so this means, by your impeccable logic, most people here are “sick apologists for mass murderers”

“Tag……You are still incapable of analysing a piece of text that my 10-year old nephew can manage quite easily.”

This is coming from someone who thought that I use “middle-class” as an insult when in fact I was pointing out that Graham was repeatedly using it.

It’s rather pathetic that you keep bringing up this accusation instead of answering my questions. It seems that your rather out of your depth in this debate.

“Ask someone to help you, because you are just making an ass of yourself … again.”

Look at your posts on this thread. Everyone here is showing you up for the idiot that you are. The only person humiliating themselves is you.

“Georgia though it had NATO onside to the point where it could get away with hit and run attacks. The fact they misplayed their hands hardly makes me an apologist for mass murderers.”

Err, who mass murdered who? Latest Russian figures are 144 fatalities. And who dropped the cluster bombs?

And it’s not a “two bit pipeline” it is the main energy pipeline into Europe which does not cross Russian controlled land. That is why Russia wants to control it, to have total control over European energy supplies.

And if the missile shield is so useless why is Russia so angry about it? In any case it is a shield isn’t it? I thought that was for defense not attack. Can you outline its attack capabilities for me?

“Putin invited Hamas to Moscow in 2006 and Russia has had contacts with Hezbollah for over ten years.”

Yes, Hasan, you’re quite right. The *relationship* has exactly the same time line as the missile shield nonsense, doesn’t it?

How many more anti-semitic murderers are you going to shill for?

So glad you brought up shilling for anti-semitic murders, Hasan.

The UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia etc are, without any doubt, home to the vilest forms of anti-semitism in existence, and it isn’t Putin, Dumplin’, who shills for these despots!

IN fact, he doesn’t even hold hands with them!

The West’s entire energy sector is potentially an enemy of Israel, simply because it is that sector that keeps these Arab dictators up and running and flush with jihadist cash.

Shill that!

‘And as I said in an earlier comment Marko is wrong about just about everything.’

So says John Palubiski. The same John Palubiski who wrote a couple of months ago:

‘For you info, Marko, I actually agree with quite a lot of what you ( and Oliver Kamm) say.’

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/08/the-family-secret/

How can one explain this contradiction ? The only answer I can come up with is that Palubiski is so hysterical he can’t remember what he himself thinks, let alone come up with a coherent argument.

One thing is clear in all this, a Russian signature on a piece of paper is worthless. We already knew this in the business and legal spheres, now we know it in the political sphere as well.

And if the missile shield is so useless why is Russia so angry about it? In any case it is a shield isn’t it? I thought that was for defense not attack. Can you outline its attack capabilities for me?

Mrs Ben, the missile shield is useless in that it cannot stop ALL incoming missile were whole volleys of them to be fired at once.

And Russia is pissed because Russia is jealous and wants one too.

Penis envy.

Were a conflict to start, and had Russia 10 nukes aimed at London, half of them would still get through and London would still be destroyed, and so in that sense it IS useless.

And as I stated at the beginning, rogue nukes aren’t going to be delivered on the end of a ICBM…the only kind of delivery the missile shield *guards* against. Instead, rogue nukes will be clandestinely smuggled onto western soil by freelancers, if that isn’t already the case, and then detonated.

WMDs are now completely divorced from any ‘national’ context.

Probleme with that is that the solutions for preventing such an occurence do not involve traditional battle methods, large amounts of military hardware or lucrative defense contracts.

They are not very profitable and so measures, and glamourless grunt-work measures they’d have to be, to prevent what is probably a sure thing are almost nonexistant.

I like Mrs. Brown’s tactic of pointing out the missile “shield” is in Poland, not Georgia; demonstrating that Russian behavior in Georgia has nothing to do with the geo-political strategy of Washington! It looks like the world’s nations are about to live under the threat of the global chessgame of USA, Russia, China and many regional powers. This is going to be bloody and ugly and the only real hope of getting the superthugs in power to step back will be for the populations in these centres to make militaristic policies unacceptable.
The US Neocon movement and its pale British counterparts will try to blame the other side and focus exclusively on Russian atrocities (the 140 Russian dead is military casualties not Ossetians by the way.) Wanko Vanilla Hoare and Mrs. Brown may want to spread stories about Russian troops raping nuns but the world will be a sadder place if Full Spectrum Dominance is pushed much further. Read Weekly Standard and National Review if you don’t think Bush’s intellectuals are egging on the world to war.

Mrs. Ben, not Mrs. Brown

Everyone is showing me up? Your maths is as useless as your geography. Do yourself a favour and buy a map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Last time I checked, it was not part of Russia.

Everyone is showing me up?
Your maths is as useless as your geography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Not part of Russia. You can easily buy a better map if you can’t work out this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Sorry Gadze but you are wrong. According to the BBC

“Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.”

This is not in any way to justify the abuses carried out by Georgia generally (http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=europe_pub&c=georgia) but it does further demonstrate that the Russians cannot be relied upon to tell the truth about anything.

How can a reputation as lying untrustworthy bullies help them develop their economy, as they badly need to do, with the west or anyone else for that matter?

The UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia etc are, without any doubt, home to the vilest forms of anti-semitism in existence, and it isn’t Putin, Dumplin’, who shills for these despots!

UAE:

From New Europe, 23 September 2006:

“Relations are also expanding in a sphere that manifests a high degree of confidence between countries, I mean military-technical cooperation,” Putin said.

Putin said he was happy about any chance to meet the UAE leadership “to exchange opinions, approaches to regional problems.”

In his turn Shaikh Muhammad said: “In 10 years relations between the UAE and Russia have been steadily developing. I want to confirm the three spheres that you mentioned - trade, tourism and military-technical cooperation.”

Kuwait:

Russian Foreign Ministry, Interview with Sergei Lavrov, October 2006:

“We have very good relations with Kuwait. They have a long-standing history, and their friendly, open nature was not violated even in the period of crisis around Iraq. We have always found an understanding of our approaches in the Kuwaiti leadership, just as we have always understood and supported the concerns of Kuwait in the work of the UN Security Council.”

Saudi Arabia:

Putin last saw King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia last year. Reuters wrote:

“Putin’s trip highlights a growing connection between the two nations after the king’s visit to Moscow in 2003. Riyadh revived its ties with Moscow in 1990 as the communist Soviet era ended. The two nations first established diplomatic ties in the 1920s.”

Talking of missiles in your back yard, anyone catch this AP report

Venezuela’s Chavez calls for alliance with Russia
July 22, 2008 - 12:35pm

By MANSUR MIROVALEV
Associated Press Writer

BARVIKHA, Russia (AP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, visiting Moscow to pursue weapons and energy deals, on Tuesday called for a strategic alliance with Russia to protect his country from the United States.

Chavez has repeatedly accused Washington of plotting an invasion to destabilize his government, despite U.S. denials.

The alliance would mean “we can guarantee Venezuela’s sovereignty, which is now threatened by the United States,” Chavez told reporters shortly after his arrival in Moscow.

Welcoming Chavez at Meiendorf Castle, his residence outside Moscow, President Dmitry Medvedev said Russian-Venezuelan relations “are one of the key factors of security in the (South American) region.”

Russian media have reported that Chavez is expected to reach a number of agreements for purchasing Russian military hardware while in Moscow, with one paper reporting the deals could be worth up to $2 billion.

The newspaper Kommersant, generally regarded as reliable, reported Tuesday that Chavez is looking to order Ilyushin jets, diesel-powered submarines, Tor-M1 air defense systems and possibly tanks. It did not specify its sources.

Tagxyzxyz, or whatever his numberplate handle is, thinks South Ossetia is in Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Or get a better map at your local WHS.

Everyone, Tag? Your maths is as dodgy as your geography.

Tagxyzxyz, or whatever his numberplate handle is, thinks South Ossetia is in Russia.

Perhaps he should get an up-to-date map at his local WHS.

Everyone, Tag? Your maths is as dodgy as your geography.

I thought JP was only worried about tensions with Russia because of the nasty Muslims, but it turns out that, as a companion to his totally outrageous views about Islam in general, he also shills for the Russians in principle. It’s normally certain types of lefty who do this rather than bizarro right wingers like JP. Most confusing.

“Tagxyzxyz, or whatever his numberplate handle is, thinks South Ossetia is in Russia.”

*Sighs*

N.O. said:

“Russia didn’t pick a fight, Georgia did”

I said

“Georgia started this war by attacking South Ossetia”

Where exactly in this sentence do I confuse South Ossetia with Russia. Yet more evidence of your atrocious reading skills.

Silly, silly child

I wonder where you got your nickname from. I don’t think Oxford Brookes would touch you with a stick.

“he also shills for the Russians in principle”

There are dozens of racist, bigoted and illogical statements you can quote from Palubiski. You don’t need to make stuff up like this.

You people debate like Stalinists. You just make up a label for people and keep repeating it until people believe it is true. Shows how confident you lot are of your arguments.

“Yes, Georgia’s eye was hurting Russia’s elbow. Just as Czechoslovakia’s eye was hurting Germany’s elbow.”

Apologies, this is the real quote from N.O. I meant to use in the first post.

Unlike him, I admit it when I fuck up.

“There are dozens of racist, bigoted and illogical statements you can quote from Palubiski. You don’t need to make stuff up like this.”

Well that’s certainly true. But, nonetheless, I was inclined to be
“charitable” to him on this one, and ascribe his position to a previously known afliction. But actually he does support the conception of Russia having a backyard it can meddle in. Which is what I mean. I don’t see where the Stalinism comes in. I’ve never been more left wing than the centre of the Labour Party, I fear. And am rather to the right of that these days.

Hmm. I hadn’t seen that report, but I did read a report (in a Russian news website) yesterday that quoted a (I think unnamed) official from the foreign ministry saying something to the effect that “the most logical response to Georgian aggression would be for Russia to expedite the transfer of military nuclear technology to countries like Iran, Syria, North Korea and Venezuela”.

Erm, yes, logical. Or mad. Or just plain evil.

On reflection, though, I think this is almost entirely bombast. And entirely in keeping with te manner of rhetoric that has characterised the Putin regime since…when - - 2002, at least. (”GO and get circumcised” and all that)

(Realistically: it does look as though rumours that have being doing around - at least among my well-informed Georgian contacts - that Russia IS going to (re)open (I think an ex-Soviet) naval base in Syria. I can live with that.)

I am increasingly inclined to think that there may have been something more than slightly true in that Economist piece last year (I hope not written by Edward Lucas…as he is not reliable and prone to excessive exaggeration) that dared to question whether or not Russia was becoming a fascist (although - let us be clear - far from nazi-like) state.

(One can real off loads of examples: the most chilling - at least outside Chechnya or the broader North Caucasus - I think that immediatly springs to mind was the preparing of lists of people with Georgian names last autumn for exclusion from public services, including education, and for investigation of their legal status)

And henceforth, just as I think Franjo Tudman is superbly well characterised by his statement “Every day I am thankful that I did not marry a Jew or a Serb” (or possibly vice versa), I am mindful that Putin’s character, and that of the regime he (still) runs is perhaps best characterised by his (overheard? deliberately or otherwise) remarks to Ehud Olmert (with regard to Moshe Katsav)
ie “He raped twelve (or ten?) women. We all admire him, we all envy him”.

(Still, I reiterate: there is still no chance of me rushing to defend the Saakhasvili regime, who are also a foul nest of gangsters prepared to use murder as a tool of state policy. Still no findings of how the then Prime Minister died two years ago, or one of the most prominent opposition figures either less than one year ago)

I’ve gotta say, I;ve never regarded JP as either racist or right-wing.

Still, I am confused that whereas this week he’s been talking about how European Russian culture is (something that even Samuel Huntingdon would take issue with: the Orthodox Christian world has somewhat different intellectual influences, and has had for almost 1000 years, from “the West”)….whereas I’m sure just the other day he was pushingwhat is sometimes known as the Tatar Yoke school of RUssian historiography - saying that Russia is largely (again to paraphrase using conventional terms) an Asiatic despotism - I’m sure he used the expression “Council of Huns” to refer to the Kremlin….

My apologises, Marko, thought I read that in Burleigh. My mistake

“He raped twelve (or ten?) women. We all admire him, we all envy him”.

Good lord. How extraordinary.

I think you’re probably right about JP’s non-racism. I’ll stick to the bigotry and illogicality. Safer terrain there.

Tag, yet another idiot who thinks my nic has anything whatsoever to do with any university, needs his hand held before he can even join the dots.
Georgia did not attack Russia.
Therefore, the attack by Russia was not in response to Georgia picking a fight with it.
Is this a sufficiently simple syllogism for you? Can you work out the rest? Or do you still need help?

This prat complains about people ‘debating like Stalinists’, but copies their tactics when he sneers about O.B. ‘not touching me with a stick’ (ROFL). Numberplate, do look up the word ‘think’ you use in that sentence, and ponder on what it means. You might even get it, who knows. Miracles happen.

“”"”"Russia is never going to blossom into the flower of democracy we’d all love to see, so perhaps we should just accept that, muster some humility and cut a deal with them. with some stupid missile shield and to just come to an entente cordiale?

Russia is never going to blossom into the flower of democracy we’d all love to see, so perhaps we should just accept that, muster some humility and cut a deal with them.”"”"”"

“”"”"Sarah, I’m quite sure everything that russian human rights activist said was true. Putin is a dictator and Russia’s rather short on both democracy and basic freedoms.

That said, if we want Russia to show increased respect for human rights, then we must engage with her in such a way that any violation of those rights would cost Russia dearly, either financially or in terms of international prestige.”"”"”

Jonh P:

I think the incompatibility between both of your statements is obvious.

The first option implies that the second become impossible.

I’m sure he used the expression “Council of Huns” to refer to the Kremlin….

Yes Venichka, I did. But only to illustrate a point about how Russia’s political culture is ANYTHING BUT european

I won’t contest your version of russian history, but the conquest of Kievian Rus in 1240 by the Centrtal Asian nomads put an indelible stamp on how Russian politics operate.

Russian culture…its writers, composers and scientists etc…are thoroughly european, but its autocratic political culture is that of a Central Asian Khanate.

I don’t think that it is at all racist to point that out. In fact, I think it’s helpful when attempting to get a handle on Putin’s regime.

Russian leaders have traditionally called themselves ‘Czar’ and ‘Czarina’, and have fancied themsleves the inheritors of Rome, but their autocratic style of governance hails, without any doubt whatsoever, right from The Steppe.

Alluding to The Politburo as a “Coucil of Huns” may be a bit strong, but it was meant to make a serious point.

Well, the Slavophile vs Westerners debate has been ongoing for some time, and doesn’t look to be over anytime soon, even if the contemporary ideology of the former set, ie Eurasianism, seems to have become somewhat more submerged that it appeared to be a few years ago (at least in Russia: Kazakhstan is another matter)

..and they do say “Moscow wasn’t built in a day” where we talk of Rome

…and “Tsargrad” was…Constantinople

JP, I really don’t disagree with you about the “Asiatic despotism” of the Russian political system: I’m just less sure (with very obvious extremely wonderful exceptions, mainly from the space of a few decades in the 19th century), that Russia’s broader culture is particularly “European”…but given the country’s cultural development (intellectually as well as artistically) for most of the last century was “frozen”, suspended in time, it is difficult to say

A worthy read.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/08/25/080825taco_talk_remnick

O.K. I will repeat what I said again….

“Georgia started this war by attacking South Ossetia”

I never said Georgia attacked Russia, and you would have to take a big leap to assume that I said it was attacking Russia.

Georgia attacked a country that was a Russian ally and whose citizens had Russian passports. Russia intervened on the side of South Ossetia Everyone else seems to comprehend this except for you.

N.O.’s arguments are so weak and pathetic that he has to attach straw men to people and argue on them. Also, like Graham, his childish attacks on other people describe himself better than they describe others.

SO is not, never has been, never could be a country.

And, yeah, Georgia’s army (again: their defence minister is 28 years old! FFS!) overreacted heavily to the latest of a series of provocations (going back years, but intensified in recent weeks and months) from the separatists in South Ossetia, sometimes with Russian assistance (most certainly including military assistance on some of those occasions).

And I’ve already explained the “RUssian passports” issue many times. Needless to say no-one there had them this time eight years ago.

JP - Indeed, an excellent article.

(And to think that on first - and it must be said pretty much last - encountering a website called “Lenin’s Tomb”, I mistakenly presumed that it was named after, or in honour of the book by that author of that name. How wrong that presumption turned out to be.)

“SO is not, never has been, never could be a country.”

It was independent before 1801, and while it’s economy is not functioning well and is reliant on Russia, the main cause of this is the economic blockade that Georgia has imposed on it.

“South Ossetia was independent before 1801″

“Georgia has imposed an economic blockade on South Ossetia”

Every single word, and the quotation marks too, in both of those sentences is a lie.

Again, Tag is simply incapable of connecting the dots.

“Again, Tag is simply incapable of connecting the dots.”

Pot calling kettle methinks. Go crawl back under the rock where you came from N.O.