Harry's Place

A good rule of thumb used by the Shin Bet is that Palestinians who are Christian do not do suicide murdering.
In spite of being as “oppressed” and “desperate” as Palestinian Muslims.
There must be something in the water Palestinian Muslims drink.

George Habash had very clean hands, then, Fabian.

As for Hammaad Munshi, I’ve heard the standard chimes that he was just a confused lad no worse than previous possessors of the Anarchist Cookbook. My guess is that there are reporting restrictions on this case, as with Samina Malik (whom I refuse to call by the name the stupid little child chose for herself).

Alec: Habash was a murderer. But he was not a suicide murderer.
Those are the problem now.

Habash, moreover, was never under Israeli occupation.
He was a refugee who became and ideological murderer.

I know a woman from Sudan who left because she was presecuted as a convert from Islam to Christianity. Does anyone really think she is as likely to commit terrorism as a member of Hizb-ut-Tahir ?

They still need their controllers or facilators, Fabian. I admit I don’t know precisely how far the involvement of sympathetic Christians goes, but the likes of Habash’s secular terrorism laid the ground for continued conflict.

The attempted bombing of Tiger Tiger in June 2007 was not suicide based. Even though two of the plotters went on to attempt self-immolation at Glasgow Airport, there were others who did not plan suicide. The thread title is about terrorism in general, not specifically suicides.

Ok, Alec.

Does anyone really think she is as likely to commit terrorism as a member of Hizb-ut-Tahir ?

On a precise quotient level? Dunno. Yet, when you look at the ‘fallen’ women or socially margionalized who have been co-opted into suicide-bombings against Israel, it may be comparable.

Habash’s pflp experienced notable difficulties in finding people willing to actually carry out acts of terror on their behalf in the post 2000 period, hence their reliance on criminals such as the delightful Hamdi ‘Ford’ – nicknamed after the type of car he was most fond of stealing. The Islamist groups, astonishingly, havent experienced the same problem.

Regarding ‘George Orwell’s’ question, the matter can be settled by consulting the statistics and comparing the number of acts of terror committed in, say the last decade, by Muslim female converts to Christianity, to the number committed by Muslim adherents to various forms of Islamist interpretations of their religion. I think the results should answer the question.

Speaking of converts, has anyone noticed that the Guardian have begun running articles by a guy called ‘Muhammad Cohen’ who aparently is a liberal New York Jew who has converted to Islam? He is presumably going to form a new Islamist group whose members will specialise in endless, whiny neurotic agonizing over what the Prophet really meant and how it relates to the early 21st century dating experience.

Its easier to identify the people who dont think they are so bad. Just buy a copy of the Guardian.

More or less what Linguaphone said. Except I have a sneaking sympathy for Mohammed on Big Brother 9 at the moment. All the girls are nominating him for eviction simply for eating too much and farting loudly in the toilet. Meanwhile they are themselves endlessly conspiring, machinating, teasing and, of course, bitching. By contrast he has behaved rather well, especially when spat at by that man who was immediately removed from the house. Although he has escaped eviction so far, he cannot possibly win. Could this be coz he is Muslim?

More or less what Linguaphone said.

Minus the calls for mass racist (oh, yes it is, who mentioned Islam?) expulsions, of course. Of course.

First they came for the Mohammeds…

(seems to be the only legitimate response to the general direction of this thread so far)

[erm. I declare a personal interest. In real life I was named after the somewhat lesser known brother of someone who, as a respected blogger elsewhere has pointed, was at least as young when he was arrested for involvement in terrorist acts than this bloke picked up earlier this week. In turn he was named after a building associated with a minority religious group located on a road whose very name is associated with all manner of dissidence, some violent, some peaceful. As such, my sympathies are with those who would be suspected of terrorism on such spurious grounds as their name or religious or communal allegiance, and most decidely not with those who would deport them]

Interesting, the fact that your name is actually Dominic somehow confirms my more general sense of you.

(at least I hope it’s Dominic, because if its Brian, this is a matter for sympathy squared, both because of the name itself, and because it means you have parents who named you after Brian Behan. Yikes.)

I was trying to figure out the building called Dominic (or Brian?).

Its like one of those infuriating convoluted clues on Brain of Britain, a programme I try to avoid.

Surely this must lead to only one conlusion: it is the nature of Islamic radical literature and its twisted emotive appeal that is dangerous. Ideas and images are dangerous. Some people have difficulty accepting this fact.

In discussion threads egarding the recent Batman movie, some parents have commented on its violent nature as being unsuitable for children, and that it should be x-rated.

But still you get the usual liberal bleaters who cannot accept that ideas presented in visual form de-sensitise and corrupt.

One said ‘My five year old knows perfectly well that the people aren’t really dead’.

That’s hardly the point, dummy! A five year old can know a fact, but the emotional meaning of it is a lifetime in coming.

Moral education can’t be rushed. The same goes for knife crime as with Islamic terrorism. It is the product of children and young adults de-sensitised to violence by boredom and lack of emotional engagement with society as a whole. In that context ideas assume enormous power.

Well if this is the standard of analysis, Gawd help us. How much did we pay collectively for that mouse of a conclusion – I would guess several hundred thousands of pounds wasted on that.

It is ridiculous to play down the influence of religious clerics.

Have any of these bombers not been to an Islamic evening or Saturday school? Have any of them not watched Islamic-themed videos.

The fact that they can come from all walks of life suggests to me the IMPORTANCE of ideology as being the only thing that connects them – just as the racist Nazi ideology was the only thing that connected Prussian aristocrats, Berlin street fighters, homosexual Stormtroopers and dreamy intellectuals.

On a precise quotient level? Dunno. Yet, when you look at the ‘fallen’ women or socially margionalized who have been co-opted into suicide-bombings against Israel, it may be comparable.

What bollocks. Are you seriously arguing a female Christian convert is as likely to be a suicide bomber as a “fallen” woman of the type used by Hezbollah, or that you “dunno” whether a “female Christian convert” is as likely to commit an act of terrorism as a member of a radical Islamic group?

It is ridiculous to play down the influence of religious clerics.

What makes you more qualified than MI5?

I fancy that Ven looks like Dominik Diamond. Except there’s no suggestion he’s a middle-class tosser with an idiosyncratic spelling like that.

One said ‘My five year old knows perfectly well that the people aren’t really dead’.

I watched the re-make of The Grudge last week. Lousy script, which was the same in the original, aside, it was highly, highly scary. Colour draining from my face (when it wasn’t hidden) time. I *know* the foul darkness of hell wasn’t seen in the boy’s mouth, but all the same…

I am not 100% convinced by the comments that the influence of radical clerics has been overestimated. For a long time there was not enough intelligence on exactly what was being preached in some mosques or via the internet for anyone to know how many radical clerics there were out there and what they were preaching. (Look even at the exposure of the speeches in Birmingham mosque earlier this year).

I worked at a Young Offenders Institution for a time and it took them a couple of years to figure out that the concerned clerics who had come in to minister to the Muslim inmates were spreading jihad. (The prison officers sitting in at the services to maintain order, did not speak any form of arabic).

This sort of thing has a viral effect. Has MI5 been able to trace back the history of the militants who have been brought to justice with enough detail to know how and where they were radicalised?

Once again, Herman, where is the stipulation that this is suicide-bombing? Her Christianity may be iron-tight, I don’t know, but nor do you or product-description failure George Orwell. Yes, the majority of instances are now (LTTE overtaken?) Muslims; I was thinking of some return to her previous faith as well as Habash.

I suspect there’s summat assinine about this reading, but I had hoped it wouldn’t have been only Ven who joined me in scorn at the third post.

Mrs Ben, have you posted by a different name before (which I won’t mention)? That’s a familiar story.

ami, St D’s, Falls Road

BTW my friend had grenades (they did not explode thank God) thrown at her once by Muslim extremists – she still did not leave Christianity.
She still might be a terrorist for Al Qaeda one day – and if you believe that want to buy a bridge ?

It is true that actual and wanna-be suicide bombers come in different ages, races, income and education brackets, but MI5 must have a mental blindspot if they fail to comprehend that no Sikh, no Christian, no Hindu, no Jew, no Quaker, no Pagan, no Atheist, no Jedi has been amongst the growing number of those convicted of planning terrorist atrocities.

There have been far right white extremists and animal rights extremists convicted of terrorism, but the largest number of convictions have been from within the Muslim community. But I accept that stereo-types are dangerous. I doubt if any Sufi Muslim has been involved and there is likely to be a positive correlation between those convicted and an adherence to extreme Salafi/Wahabi interpretations of the Quran, and an interest in the writings of Sayd Qutb, Ala Maududi, Ibn Tamiyyah and Ayman al Zawahiri.

The report makes an important point about religious literacy. Muslims with a deep knowledge of the subtleties and intricacies of classical Islam do not in most cases subscribe to the Jihadist argument. Many young converts have a very shallow understanding of Islam and as one Imam has observed, they have created their own religion with Jihad as the Sixth Pillar of a new Islam.

What makes you more qualified than MI5?

He doesn’t read the Guardian?

I don´t read the third post as a call for mass expulsions.
It´s more likeley a satire over the Elephant…roomism of a statement
like the following:
“it is not possible to draw up a typical profile of the British terrorist as most are demographically unremarkable and simply reflect the communities in which they live”.

not Islamist fundamentalists, but religious novices.

Oh so the problem turned out to be Islam after all. Imagine my surprise.

I don´t read the third post as a call for mass expulsions.

It called for the removal of everyone of a certain name and their relatives. Considering this is one of the most, if not the most common Muslim names, such an edict would be designed to effect the mass expulsion of Muslims.

If the poster were being sardonic, it is as tasteless as NYT covers. It has received two endorsements, neither of which say, goodness, what clever satire. They endorse the words as they are written.

simply reflect the communities in which they live

The unintentional other meaning of that phrase is hard to forget.

“the concerned clerics who had come in to minister to the Muslim inmates were spreading jihad. (The prison officers sitting in at the services to maintain order, did not speak any form of arabic).”

Probably most of the people they were preaching to didn’t understand Arabic either.

“no Sikh, no Christian, no Hindu, no Jew, no Quaker, no Pagan, no Atheist, no Jedi has been amongst the growing number of those convicted of planning terrorist atrocities.”
Well, all of those except Quakers and- as far as we know- Jedis have planned and committed terrorist atrocities, though.

So is the idea that terrorists are a cross-section of the population and no more likely to be young men with beards than little old ladies with cats?

Prison for strikers
Bring back the cat
Kick out the Muslims
How about That?

Well, no, Seymour; the most murderous terrorists in the world- the Chinese Communist Party- who are responsible for the deaths of several tens of milliions of people in the last half century- are supposedly Marxist atheists.

Basically the same as the Islamists then VoteMorgoth. Except in a novel twist you have replaced Jews with Muslims.

‘The same goes for knife crime as with Islamic terrorism. It is the product of children and young adults de-sensitised to violence by boredom and lack of emotional engagement with society as a whole’.

Beg to differ. They ain’t de-sensitised but over-sensitised they really enjoy violence. They have developed an addiction to the thrill and power possessing, using or threatening people with their weapons gives them. Clockwork Orange was spot-on about this type. We all enjoy cruelty, most of in the form of ‘humour’. The trick is to raise above your evil-animal part and sublimate or keep a tight rational control over these tendancies, which everyone has.

This is why computer games that allow us to forget about all that are top of the sales league. This is not societies fault it is solely the responsiblity of those individuals concerned, it is societies job to teach self-discipline and bring about maturity. This begins with those closest to the individual. Apathetic, complacent or wrong-headed families, parents in particular, leads to more grief in wider society. In the case of those involved directly in Islamic terrorism this is against the host society and parental attitudes, followed by ‘community attitudes’ are the first order here.

Many in the minority communities have bought into a criminal or cynical ideology. There is considerable overlap between the two. Both are delusional. There is also a blackguardly tendancy in both soft-liberal and socialist abstract ideologies that sympathises and reinforces and indeed practices tolerance and promotion of these very same attitudes.

BTW ‘Qutb’ is a Sufi muslim name and concept.

Tory, despite the paedophile pig-fucking prophet’s alledged affection for cats, Islamists hate cats (and dogs).

@Weiss

‘Speaking of converts, has anyone noticed that the Guardian have begun running articles by a guy called ‘Muhammad Cohen’ who aparently is a liberal New York Jew who has converted to Islam? He is presumably going to form a new Islamist group whose members will specialise in endless, whiny neurotic agonizing over what the Prophet really meant and how it relates to the early 21st century dating experience.’

Snort, lmaorofl. Very good.

Are we still skating around the handcuffs of PC when HP clearly suggests we should be able to post things that people might not want to read.

____________________
Dear MI5,

Please look back over the last 2+ years and note about 71 convictions for terrorist related offences. Please note the profiles of the people already under trial or in the pipeline.

I think you will find that at least 95% of those people are Muslims. These are the people currently most involved in terrorism offences in the UK.

Before 2001 you would have definitely noticed a number of Irish accents in your terrorism surveillance, arrests and convictions. There seems to be relative peace in NI now so just keep a minimal watching brief.

May I suggest that you concentrate on radicalised followers of Islam for the time being until some other group emerges with a grudge and engage in terrorist activities. Note, that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists but that doesn’t mean the pool won’t give you some fish.

In the past you would have seen the odd Welsh accent and met up with un-washed, scurvy haired animal rights nutter. There is always the rogue right-wing loon as well. So, a few BNP and fringe feelers might net someone.

But, if your resources are limited it does seem that the Islamist community is a rich hunting ground. Please prepare your leaflets to distribute to a distraught community should you arrest anyone. Please prepare leaflets for the rest of us who might suffer from a loved one maimed or killed by a terrorist outrage. We have community fears too!

If in doubt, look for Jihadist video material, “How to make a suicide Belt” manuals, and “The Best Bus Routes to kill lots of Infidels” map and timetable.

Yours Sincerely,

A Target
______________

Sod it! I’ve written it now so I’ll post it.

Just to clarify – my early comment was meant as a somewhat tongue-in-cheek reminder of the blindingly obvious fact that in today’s world serious terrorism is pretty much a muslim monopoly (the likes of ETA, dissident Irish republicans and the like being parochial pinpricks by comparison). Nor did I mean to advocate the forcible mass expulsion of muslims from Britain. On the contrary, I advocate offering financial inducements to muslims to encourage their peaceful and voluntary departure.

The report makes an important point about religious literacy. Muslims with a deep knowledge of the subtleties and intricacies of classical Islam do not in most cases subscribe to the Jihadist argument. Many young converts have a very shallow understanding of Islam and as one Imam has observed, they have created their own religion with Jihad as the Sixth Pillar of a new Islam.

Again and again, I read how Islam is just so difficult to understand, so subtle that only those immersed in its intricacies can comprehend it. And that Muslims who use it as an “excuse” for terrorism are just showing their ignorance of its majesty. Amazing that an illiterate pagan from the middle of the desert could construct something so subtle. But enough about me. On the other hand, those who make such a claim for Islam have to discount the understanding of people like Bin Laden and his followers (as well as the Taliban and many other groups), all of whom clearly have spent considerable time studying Islam and who have come to the conclusion that it mandates killing.

“I advocate offering financial inducements to Muslims to encourage their peaceful and voluntary departure.”

As opposed to the sometimes exorbitant sums paid via benefits to those who stay? I’d read in the article about the lady whose daughter was murdered in India that she was making $70k/annum -on benefits-. That’s more than I make in a year as a college professor in the US.

If benefits are that good, what sort of financial inducements could be made? There is not a Muslim-majority, Sharia-compliant nation on Earth that will pay someone outrageous benefits and free housing for sitting on one’s ass contributing nothing.

Unless you’re a Saudi royal, I suppose.

Ven, I realised it must be the Falls Road, which I visited last month, but I don’t know the building. I will be sure to look out for the building when I next visit the Road next month, and will then be able to discourse knowledgably to my companions about this landmark.

Islam represents a unique kind of danger not present in other religions.

Mohammed was an evil and wicked person and he was also a killer who elevated killing for the cause to an act of supreme morality.

You just can’t get more perverse than that.

He is the model for all people in all times, and with a historical record stretching back 14 centuries the proof of that ‘moral principle’ is there in spades, provided you have the guts to look at it.

No, I agree with you Iain. When I meant ‘de-sensitised’ I meant in the moral sense; their moral sense is weakened, is de-sensitised. I agree their inner cruelty to whicfh we are party to, is super-sensitised. The government tries to encourage ‘respect’ in schools whilst in the cultural mainstream it is ‘Cool to be Cruel’. Look at Big Brother.

What no-one is seeing here is that there is a kind of nihilism afoot in our society that allows powerful ideologies to gain control over people’s minds across the board, a nihilism that is encouraged by encouraging the entertainment value of violence.

Ideologies are weakened by moral education but stengthened by the lack of it.

I know liberals don’t easily accept this, but I have seen it often with children, that most of them have to be taught morality. If you don’t drum it into them, many of them just don’t get ‘respect’.

Not everyone is a natural empath who readily sympathises. Children develop at different rates. Some adults don’t begin to be emotionally mature until well into their 30s and some sadly never get there.

@ Roger

Sikhs, Christians, Jews etc have been complicit in acts of violence throughout history but what I actually wrote was that none of these belief groups had members amongst those recently convicted for terrorist offences.

Yes, there are violent Christians, Buddhists, Hindus etc but in recent decades there has been a clear pattern of Islamist-influenced violence in Britain, France, Spain, Holland, America, Canada, Israel, Palestine, India, Pakistan, China, Argentina, Chechnya, Russia, Indonesia, Phillippines, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Lebanon, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen, Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, Kenya, Tanzania, and arguably Kosovo – and probably several other states.

I cannot think of another group of non-state actors, that share a common political, social, cultural or religious identity that are implicated in acts of violence in so many diverse countries. In previous periods of history Christian states might have been comparable, but this is a movement of non-state actors, shairng a common thread from a palate of various ideas on the a la carte menu of IslamIST fundamentalism – and most of their victims are Muslims.

If only there was a common denominator that linked all of these people.

Ami – it’s a big school, red-brick building, mostly, a but set back from the road, about halfway along, on the north side : it is, inter alia, where the present President of Ireland, was educated. But I’m not sure it’s THAT much of a landmark…

“First they came for the Mohammeds…”

How very unexpected that you should say this … not.

None of the people who ‘they’ came for belonged to a group of whom 72.6% (or whatever) had openly declared that mass murder of peaceful civilians of the host country is justified in the name of their religion or race or whatever. Or had committed or were planning to commit such mass murders.

Harry’s Place – where the debate is whether Muslims should be expelled forcibly or *ahem* “voluntarily repatriated”. And, with the honourable exception of Venichka (and who doesn’t really qualify anyway), none of the people who run the site see the need to say so much as one word of of protest or objection.

Lovely, lovely stuff. What a charming site this has become.

Bravo, Suffolk.

Try to get your brain in gear, king.

Yes, John P. It is the vile cowardice and hypocrisy of what passes for ‘left’ in this country and pretty much everywhere, culminating in that product of the Ministry of the Truth, i.e. PC, that prevents a lot of people from even thinking ‘forbidden’ things, let alone saying them.

devorgilla, you’re missing the obvious point that these people are deeply religious. They have the morality, the empathy that their religion demands of them. Mohammad is their template and they are the copies.

He was a monster, so they are.

Any attempt to teach empathy and morality will be running against their religion, this is quite the opposite from a mere state of ignorance.

“that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists”

Indeed, but that does not stop the converse being true.

Except, Roger, that Marxism as practised in communist states is far more akin to a religion than it is to a political philosophy.

Indeed. I read an article this morning about Chinese Athletes going to offer prayers to Mao at his old house in Beijing.

Collectivism is collectivism, whither its Yahweh or Mao they’re praying to…

No I’m not missing the obvious point. I’m saying that the power of ideas to corrupt even fairly decent people (never mind weak-minded ferals) is much greater than has been accepted.

But those fairly decent people (as I take most of these suicide bombers to be) are de-sensitised by being shown videos and other indoctrination that over-rides what decency they have. They are encouraged to believe that kuffar are non-humans without hope or value. That’s Satanic. That was Satan’s ploy – to consider humanity is without hope of spiritual redemption.

I too have considerable issues with some of the beliefs of Islam. But most Muslims appear not to be affected by them. Either they ignore them, interpret them differently, or don’t know about them.

I would love to know which it is. But I’m for the second category.

The problem with Islam (and Muslims) is not that they are all evil because that is certainly not true. I have no doubt that most live decent lives by any standard; the problem is that their model is a killer and many of his followers have emulated him rather well. What does society do about that? Do we in the West simply pull the covers over our heads? Muslims set Mohammed up as their model; do we pretend he wasn’t a killer?

Sikhs, Hindus Christians and JEws have been guilty of recent terrorist violence in India, Uganda, Nigeria and PAlestine, to begin with a few examples. Whether or not they have been convicted is irrelevant. If- as you claim, Suffolk Booy- they have not been convicted then it says something about the state of justice, not about the peaceable nature of the religions concerned. I would agree that there have been more terrorist attacks inspired by islam than by other religions, but there haven’t been many and they haven’t been very efficient. The powers granted and claimed by the “security services” to deal with this threat- and yes, it is a threat; just not much of one- will probably do more long-term damage to this country’s freedom.

“Except, Roger, that Marxism as practised in communist states is far more akin to a religion than it is to a political philosophy.”

I quite agree, N.O., I merely point out that it has inspired many more deaths than openly religious religions. Even the various sorts of Marxists who have never had power and so haven’t been able to kill many people, seem to object only that the wrong people were killed, not that so many were killed in the glorious People’s states.

Well no one wants to face that we may have to disapprove of Islam, but if we’re not going to descend into darkness, that’s just what we will have to do.

By the way, I was responding to Seymour Paine

Well no one wants to face that we may have to disapprove of Islam, but if we’re not going to descend into darkness, that’s just what we will have to do.

Its interesting to note that in many Muslims countries we have Christians persecuted and the following of Christianity frowned upon.

In all Christian countries Islam is freely practised without any threat to its followers.

Tony Blair said after 7/7 that the bombers were following ‘a perversion of Islam’. He said that after meeting with several Muslim community leaders. My standard question is “Where can I buy the book that these terrorists read that describes the perversion of Islam that they follow”. I was sold The Koran!

It’s the nature of religious belief or anything believed religiously: if you serve good, whatever you do is good if it will bring about the triumph of good; your enemies serve evil so whatever they do is evil. It doesn’t matter how it seems- that is the underlying objective truth.
As a result, bad people can think they are good and good people can be persuaded to do bad things.

As King Stone has pointed out, here at Harry’s Place

where the debate is whether Muslims should be expelled forcibly or *ahem* “voluntarily repatriated”. And, with the honourable exception of Venichka (and who doesn’t really qualify anyway), none of the people who run the site see the need to say so much as one word of of protest or objection.

Can I just point out that voluntary repatriation with financial inducements is currently the policy of the British National Party. Have the Decent Left transmogrified into the Far-Right?

Can I just point out that voluntary repatriation with financial inducements is currently the policy of the British National Party.

Oh no! Nick Griffin breathes oxygen! Quick, everyone stop breating oxygen, lest we be confused with Nick Griffin!

Well, I would have thought that adopting, promoting, or permitting to go unquestioned Nick Griffin’s policies (and those of other, generally murderous, or at least violent and racist, elements of the “far right”)….was a bit more serious than breathing oxygen, like Nick Griffin (and everyone else).

Am I surprised that what apparently appears to be a significant chunk of opinion here has adopted extremist and obnoxious opinions?

Far from it. I’d expect nothing less of a bunch of ex-Marxists.

Lustration is what is required!

So are there ANY policies of the BNP to which you object Morgoth?

Can I just point out that voluntary repatriation with financial inducements is currently the policy of the British National Party. Have the Decent Left transmogrified into the Far-Right?

3 people post comments on this thread (2 of whom I, as a regular, do not recognise at all) and suddenly the Decent Left is the Far Right?

Get a grip.

So are there ANY policies of the BNP to which you object Morgoth?

Fuck off, Geodesic Malarkey.

Can I just point out that voluntary repatriation with financial inducements is currently the policy of the British National Party. Have the Decent Left transmogrified into the Far-Right?

You are assuming that most of the posters on here would identify themselves as the Decent Left. They wouldn’t.

Oh, and furthermore -

none of the people who run the site see the need to say so much as one word of of protest or objection.

If they were actually present on this thread, that would be fair criticism.

But they’re not.

So it’s nonsensical.

@ SeymourPaine – There are calls for violence in the Qu’ran, and the Hadith are even more problematic, and yes this relates to issues such as criticism of Mohammed or conversion to another religion. Lots of silly liberals are going around saying that Islam is 100% free of violence and it is simply crap.

But what we face with Al Qaeda is a death cult – a free-lance nihilist movement that are willing to kill as many people as need be to see their imagined paradise born. Their most prolific killing grounds have been in Algeria and Iraq.

Islam has been around for 14 centuries – it has been involved in wars, empire, and slavery – as has Christianity, and both have been involved in arts, science and civilisation. I am not saying Islam has a blemish-free record over 14 centuries – but it was not a nihilistic death cult. This new bunch of numpties are a death cult.

I agree with Norm’s take on this

http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/

If they were actually present on this thread, that would be fair criticism.

But if you check the other threads, they are present on the site. They have merely chosen not to comment on calls for the repatriation of Muslims.

They have merely chosen not to comment on calls for the repatriation of Muslims.

How do you know? Lack of comment by them is not proof that they are choosing not to.

And who exactly is calling for “voluntary repatriation”?

Quite so Geodesic. As is always the case when threads evolve into cesspools of bigotry like this one, their silence is deafening.

Morgoth chose to spit out his dummy rather than answer your question, but previously he has denounced the BNP as “collectivist”, ie. they would continue with the NHS rather than abolish it, would continue with the welfare state rather than abolish it, and so on. So the answer is he agrees with the BNP on repatriation and immigration, bulldozing Mosques and the like, and issues such as restoring capital and corporal punishment, but is to their right on economic matters. Hope that helps.

“Sikhs, Hindus Christians and JEws have been guilty of recent terrorist violence in India, Uganda, Nigeria and PAlestine, to begin with a few examples. Whether or not they have been convicted is irrelevant”

There are several problems with this statement and with the one about ‘not many terrorist acts by Moslems’.
First of all, every religion has followers that are murderers, rapists, burglars etc; to list their religion in this context is not just irrelevant but misleading, because …
secondly, not in every instance is it religion that motivates them. It can be lots of different reasons.
Thirdly, Christianity does not qua Christianity call for acts of mass murder against Moslems or Jews etc. Islam does (and the absurd ‘argument’ – in reality, realpolitikal PC handwaving – that ‘this is a perversion of Islam’ is denied by quite a few hundreds of millions of Moslems across the Islamic world …).
Fourthly, the statistics across the world over the past, what, 20 years say the opposite to that last claim above.

And who exactly is calling for “voluntary repatriation”?

Linguaphone @ 2.29pm. His original comment calling for mass deportation has been “pruned” however it is still referenced by Alec.

Lack of comment by them is not proof that they are choosing not to.

Well someone’s reading it and deleting comments. But they’ve left in Linguaphone’s “clarification”

Quite so Geodesic. As is always the case when threads evolve into cesspools of bigotry like this one, their silence is deafening.

Spit it out, what are you saying, that the people who run HP are racist?

Pressed Send by mistake:

Fifthly, to say that conviction is irrelevant means that you choose to define terrorism by some personal subjective yardstick. If so, then the discussion is dead because we cannot agree on its terms.

But if you check the other threads, they are present on the site.

No they are not.

their silence is deafening

No, I think you’ll find their ’silence’ is a natural consequence of their ‘not being online’, and, I would imagine, ‘doing something else’.

Not really that hard to grasp, is it?

Mark T – Gene commented on another thread at 3.14pm

“I’d expect nothing less of a bunch of ex-Marxists”

Never mind the abusive attitude to views that I may or may not share: you know that x, y and z are ex-Marxists because …?

I have never been a Marxist, as an example.

Suffolk Boy: Several points: AQ is not the only Islamic group bent on violence and death. There are many others. Another point (not yours): Someone mentioned Blair’s statement that AQ’s view is a perversion of Islam. Is he an authority on Islam? The leaders of AQ (and other similar groups) couch their appeal in explicitly Islamic terms. Some Muslim leaders disagree with their interpretation but of course as a non-Muslim I cannot argue one way or the other. Islam doesn’t have a pope so there is no final authority, as far as I understand it. In that sense, it’s similar to Judaism.

As for Islam’s history, I believe it has only spread by violence. It was on the attack from the get-go and basically never stopped. Did it ever spread because of its innate appeal? For whatever you can say against Christianity, in the first three centuries it spread by its appeal, not by violence. Of course, after it had the power of the state behind it things changed.

Spit it out, what are you saying, that the people who run HP are racist?

What I’m saying is that the views that are being promulgated on this thread are indistinguishable from the official policy of the BNP. And that it is surprising that there are hardly any dissenting voices, including those of the site administrators.

The idea that Al Qaeda is merely a death cult is wrong and dangerous. They are attempting to reignite the process of jihad (violent conquest) that created the Caliphate in the first place. For them the worst moment in history was when the Ottoman Empire fell so they wish to recreate and expand it until it ultimately takes in the entire world. This process (jihad) is an injunction placed on Muslims by the sunnah, jihad is so important that it is regarded as the sixth pillar of Islam.

Many Muslim scholars regard Al Queda’s efforts as illegitimate because offensive jihad can only be ordered by the Caliph, as there is not one, no jihad.

Problem is that OBL wants to be the Caliph and has constructed his calls for jihad as defensive jihad, which is permitted in the absence of higher authority. In any event, very few mainstream Muslim scholars are saying that jihad is not a religious duty or that Islam must be spread by whatever means necessary, they are arguing about the timing and authority and target selection, primarily.

As to suicide bombing and the murder of innocents there seem to a variety of justifications for these coming from the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

Al Qaeda is as much a death cult as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa brigades, Islamic Jihad, or the random self-generating terrorists we now enjoy here in Britain.

Perhaps MFI will be able to discern a common link, should one exist.

What I’m saying is that the views that are being promulgated on this thread are indistinguishable from the official policy of the BNP. And that it is surprising that there are hardly any dissenting voices, including those of the site administrators.

So, yes, you are insinuating that they are racist.

Good.

“No, I think you’ll find their ’silence’ is a natural consequence of their ‘not being online’, and, I would imagine, ‘doing something else’.”

Well, I look forward to David T and co. coming along and denouncing Linguaphone, Morgoth, Nearly Oxfordian, Seymour et al, distancing themelves like. I suspect I’ll be waiting a long time.

I suspect I’ll be waiting a long time.

Yes, because David T is a big fat smelly racist.

Grow up.

“It says, and as the 7/7 bombers proved and those jailed earlier this week, that they are mostly British nationals, not illegal immigrants and not Islamist fundamentalists, but religious novices.”
Is that not, umm, a typical profile?

No Mark, what I’m saying is that the views that are being promulgated on this thread are indistinguishable from the official policy of the BNP. And that it is surprising that there are hardly any dissenting voices, including those of the site administrators.

You have deduced from that statement that I believe they are racists.

So let me get this straight: because one person in one post suggested voluntary repatriation, the whole of HP, especially those who run it, are BNP-style bigots? Think about that for a minute

“British-based terrorists are as ethnically diverse as the UK Muslim population, with individuals from Pakistani, Middle Eastern and Caucasian backgrounds. MI5 says assumptions cannot be made about suspects based on skin colour, ethnic heritage or nationality.”

How to say it, without saying it.

And that it is surprising that there are hardly any dissenting voices, including those of the site administrators.

We’ve already established that, at best, one administrator has been online today, and even then, he has only posted one comment on a different thread.

And still you persist with this frankly fucking bizarre line of argument.

“British-based terrorists are as ethnically diverse as the UK Muslim population, with individuals from Pakistani, Middle Eastern and Caucasian backgrounds. MI5 says assumptions cannot be made about suspects based on skin colour, ethnic heritage or nationality.”

How to say it, without saying it.

Bear in mind that that is the Guardian paraphrasing. There’s no quote from the report

Herman – there have been many posts on HP denouncing other sites for the fact that hate-speech goes unchallenged in their comments boxes. All I am doing is pointing out that there is hate speech on this thread and no administrator has challenged it. Do you understand yet?

Quite good at insinuating themselves Mark T. They insinuate when the SWP let a leaflet go out not mentioning that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust probably says something about their attitude to Jews. They’re probably right. The SWP are wankers.

I insinuate that when the owners of this sight not only tolerate, but chummily get on with, a bunch of extreme-right, repatriation advocating pondlife headbangers like Morgoth, Oxfordian and Seymour Pondlife. it says something about them too.

Shameless, utter wankers, the lot.

“Sikhs, Hindus Christians and JEws have been guilty of recent terrorist violence in India, Uganda, Nigeria and PAlestine, to begin with a few examples. Whether or not they have been convicted is irrelevant”

There are several problems with this statement and with the one about ‘not many terrorist acts by Moslems’.
First of all, every religion has followers that are murderers, rapists, burglars etc; to list their religion in this context is not just irrelevant but misleading, because …
secondly, not in every instance is it religion that motivates them. It can be lots of different reasons.
Thirdly, Christianity does not qua Christianity call for acts of mass murder against Moslems or Jews etc. Islam does (and the absurd ‘argument’ – in reality, realpolitikal PC handwaving – that ‘this is a perversion of Islam’ is denied by quite a few hundreds of millions of Moslems across the Islamic world …).
Fourthly, the statistics across the world over the past, what, 20 years say the opposite to that last claim above.”

Sikhs killed Indians in an airliner specifically because they were Indians. Hindus killed sikhs and muslims specifically because they were sikhs and muslims. Christians in Uganda and Nigeria killed people for not being christians or being the wrong kind of christians. A jew killed the Prime Minister of Israel for being the wrong kind of jew and jews killed Palestinians for being Palestinians. These were specifically motivated by religious beliefs. That’s why I cited them.
Christianity qua christianity practised mass murder against nonchristians and the wrong kind of christians for most of history without even the limited toleration built into islam. there’s no reason to think it won’t again. Nor do the ” statistics across the world over the past, what, 20 years say the opposite to that last claim above” unless you are very choosy with your statistics.

“Fifthly, to say that conviction is irrelevant means that you choose to define terrorism by some personal subjective yardstick. If so, then the discussion is dead because we cannot agree on its terms.”
So, if no-one has been convicted of a crime- as with the mass-murder of muslims in Gujarat- we cannot say there was a crime?

I insinuate that when the owners of this sight not only tolerate, but chummily get on with, a bunch of extreme-right, repatriation advocating pondlife headbangers like Morgoth, Oxfordian and Seymour Pondlife. it says something about them too.

THEY. ARE. NOT. ONLINE.

JESUS. FUCKING. CHRIST.

You are correct, sorry, should have spotted that myself. Wonder what the paraphrased paragraph actually said?

Not sure calling for voluntary repatriation counts as hate speech. Didn’t John Reid advocate something like that?

That is not all you are doing though is it? You are insinuating that the administrators of this site are at best indifferent to this one-off piece of hate-speech (by one poster in a single post), or agree with it, when your evidence to support this is as flimsy as Nearly Oxfordian’s sanity. Do you understand now?

Well, I look forward to David T and co. coming along and denouncing Linguaphone, Morgoth, Nearly Oxfordian, Seymour et al, distancing themelves like. I suspect I’ll be waiting a long time.

How moral art thou…not.

There is no moral value to gleaned from tolerating individuals intent on committing mass murder.

You see, true morality takes a lot of thought and no small amount of hard work, something you appear not to have done.

You no doubt view muslims as the ‘New Jews’.

It’s the fashion!

However ,the Jews of 30s Germany didn’t fly planes into office towers, bomb subways or plot the cruel and inhuman mass murder of innocent civilians.

Nor did Jews establish networks of schools teaching hatred of all things and all peoples non-jewish.

And John Reid, notorious right-winger. Presumably.

Honestly, imagine if ‘hate speech’ protections were ever extended to the far-right!!!! Some posters here would be out of business.

If you guys want to offer us the money to hire three full-time monitors, each working an eight-hour shift, to monitor this site and delete offensive comments, please do so. Otherwise, to borrow the favorite phrase around here, fuck off. Or monitor yourselves. Nobody forces you to hang out here.

And with that, I’m closing the thread.