Harry’s Place

Hard to tell any real difference. Interesting and depressing that anti-Semitism can bring together all the extremists and bigots of whatever idealogy.

Note: If you are going to mention anti-Semitic cartoons, how about the Independent’s cartoon of Sharon eating Palestinian babies that was published a few years back?

Last night I watched from netflix a documentary by one Marc Levin, apparantly a leftish New Youk film-maker, about the Protocols and the persistance of anti-Semitism in general. Pretty hair-raising.

Here’s a cartoon from 20th august edition of the Syrian daily Tishreen (means October as in the October War)

http://www.tishreen.info/_care.asp?FileName=22513692720080819222500

The tree has written on it “The Arab Nation” and the apples have “Iraq” and “Lebanon” written on them.

Yes good point, but slightly undermined by your recent casual response to the Obama cartoon.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/07/14/so-what/

The exagerration of the noses in the “Left Alternative” cartoon is reminiscent of some Nazi propaganda that I recall: a cunning “Juden” with a huge nose, bent over and rubbing his hands together, gleeful of the destruction of the Reich. I’ve also seen Sunni extremist propaganda very similar to the white supremacist cartoon, which depicts Ahmadinejad French kissing a rabbi - the belief is that Iran is a secret ally of Israel and the US, which are all in league with each other to destroy the Arab nation.

Yes good point, but slightly undermined by your recent casual response to the Obama cartoon.

That cartoon, as I thought was abundantly clear, was intended as a satire of those who believe the things it depicted. Quite unlike the cartoon that is the subject of this post.

I think the cartoons featuring a figure designed to represent a group (say Israelis for the sake of argument) tend to be a bit more sinister than the Obama New Yorker cover where it’s pretty obvious which individuals the figures are meant to represent.

btw some of the ‘objectionable’ cartoons on the adl site look pretty mild to me.

The Obama campaign and the rest of the American media thought it was in extremely poor taste, whatever the pseudo motive behind it.

I mentioned at the time that nobody would like it if a magazine had tried to satirise the anti semitism against a Jewish politician with an anti semitic cartoon. I think I was right about that.

If one is going to highlight the racist nature of cartoons then it’s just good to be more sensitive to these matters across the board.

This is still my favourite. Churchill the big, blue Zionist octopus. This is Nazi-era anti-Semitism, not the modern kind. In some ways, it’s more tame.

About three years ago when Blair went to the USA and gave a speech in the US Congress he explicitly slated the Antisemitism that appears in the Arab press and said that something had to be done to combat it. When Bush came to the UK he said a similar thing.

Nothing has been done about it.

Isn’t it fair, although not politically correct, to say that much Antisemitism is prevalent amongst Arabs and Muslims to the extent that it seems to be endemic to their common root of Islam? Do we really expect that if the Israel/Palestinian conflict were solved that this would go away given the historical context of Jew hate by Arabs and Muslims.

Antisemitism has always been based on religious attacks on Jews by Christianity that sees Jews as “Christ Killers” and Muslims who see Jews as “Mohammed Rejecters”. Are we so bound by PC constraints that we can’t articulate this (outside of HP)?

This is true. Latuff is doing no-one any favours. Well, no-one who supports the Palestinians anyway, nor the Palestinians themselves. This conflict isn’t improved by either side demonising the other in the crudest manner possible. It simply doesn’t help in anyway. Joe Sacco on the other hand is a different matter. You can learn something from his comics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(Sacco_comic)

http://lambiek.net/artists/s/sacco.htm

David, the Independent was simply exhibiting its ongoing editorial policy with that antisemitic cartoon. I was more surprised to see one in the Times, with Israeli Panzerkommandos murdering a helpless old Arab man in a wheelchair.

I am not surprised to see Irie trying, in the crudest manner possible, to equate the cartoons that you can see in the newspapers of both sides.

Maven, you are 100% correct; I have articulated it outside HP, unsurprisingly to be vilified by the usual ‘PC’ morons.

Interesting that TheIrie is only concerned about the PR implications of shocking anti-semitism.

Isn’t TheIrie the same person who has played down every piece of footage discovered by Memri.

“Israel illegally occupying all that land”

Stupid and ignorant antisemitic crap.

“i think if you consult international law”:
It’s been consulted, it’s been discussed and analysed, here and in a myriad other places ad infinitum and ad nauseam, and if you had read even a microfraction of that debate you would realise that to make such knee jerk facile statements as “Israel illegally occupying” you merit being called ignorant. And when you start a sentence with Err, I think if you.. followed by a call to the authority of international law without any inkling of the serious jurisprudential critiques of the nature and sources of international law, then you warrant being called juvenile.

TORY - there are only PR implications. There are no other implications from cartoons, or words, other than the message that they give out, be it a message of hatred or propaganda designed to effect some nasty incident. So, yes, the problem with cartoons is the effect they will have, and as I said, I agree that such offensive and divisive cartoon are entirely negative.

So you do find the cartoon offensive at least. I thought your only concern was the PR implications for your cause. Not the inevitable incitement to hatred that comes with that sort of anti-semitism.

Considering Hillary Clinton’s threat in the US primaries to “annihilate” Iran if they attack Israel, the concerns about pandering to AIPAC and Israel seem valid. US politicians need to put US interests above Israel’s.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Oh goodness, another ‘Israel controls America, no, make that the world’ loony.

I suppose you think that nuclear war in the ME is good for the USA?

Where do these loons come from?

Nearly Oxfordian - Only one country in the ME with nukes so far and they’ve been known to throw their weight around quite a bit. They came up with the “Samson Option” as a contingency plan for when they’ve finally pushed their Arab neighbors to the brink.

It is mischaracterization to paraphrase my comments as “controls.”

“Disproportionate influence” from their numbers and strategic importance would be more accurate. If Israel wants to continue with their oppressive apartheid regime, let them do it on their own dime.

Lance Thruster (in your fervid imagination, mate - you are probably a 13-year old spotty boy who reads far too many dodgy porn-style comics and visits neo-Nazi websites, believing himself to be an Aryan warrior) - this ‘apartheid’ drivel is bad for you. And you have no idea what a ‘Samson option’ is if you think it’s something you do when YOU have pushed your enemies to the brink. You are as silly as you are ignorant.

Gene, have you been deleting the comments of the poster to whom Nearly Oxfordian and I responded at 11.37 and 12.12? It looks rather disjointed with our comments there and not his. At least on CIF you can tell where the deletions are by the moderator’s note.

Ami, I am sure that the saner ones among the readers of this thread will be able to join the dots ;-)

But yes, I thought something rather odd was going on.

NO - You’ve gotten your theorized details as wrong as the rest of your nonsense. You are all heat and no light.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University, chaired Project Daniel, a group advising Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, argues in that paper and elsewhere that the effective deterrence of the Samson Option would be increased by ending the policy of nuclear ambiguity.[16] In a 2004 article he recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to “support conventional preemptions” against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets because “without such weapons, Israel, having to rely entirely upon nonnuclear forces, might not be able to deter enemy retaliations for the Israeli preemptive strike.”[17]

—

What can be seen is a desire for Israel to be able to act with impunity by way of threatening others with nuclear annihilation.

The ridiculous “Lance Thruster” relies on some anonymous Wikipedia writer, reporting second-hand the words of some French professor in another language, instead of engaging his brain cells and thinking for himself about what a Samson option could possibly mean, given who it’s named after. No wonder that’s what he does, since he is so ignorant. Samson killed himself together with the Philistines who had imprisoned him, because he had no way out. Therefore, it cannot be a weapon of first strike, or indeed anything but a suicidal decision to kill your enemies because you yourself have no hope of survival.
Not sure you have followed it so far, but that is what it means and what it has always meant in Israel.

The question is, really, what the behavior of Arab States has been in situations which could unleash the apocalypse, and, by and large, it depends on whether the Syrians really WERE trying to get into Galilee in ‘73, since the Egyptian large tank formations were in Sinai and could not advance farther than their SAM network. Certainly the treatment of Israeli POWs and the trend towards conventionally-tipped WMD technologies (as dry runs?) by Iraq, Syria, and Libya indicates the prevailing harshness, and that the expense of conventionally overrunning the State of Israel means that the Samson Option is more likely to be triggered by a WMD-tipped SCUD from a non-state actor or anonymous terror-delivered suitcase nuke. It will not be “neighbors” or “states” but the Kuntar-esque sub-state actors like Hezbollah or the SSNP who finally trigger an apocalyptic war of Jew against Arab, since the only Arab states “pushed to the brink” have been Egypt and Syria, which extracted themselves from their own adventurism with face-saving stalemates (Syria) and lucrative return of territory (Egypt).

Lance Thruster:

If Israel was inclined towards throwing its nuclear weight around with impunity as you assert, then why have they held their fire for the 30 or so years they’ve had ‘em?

If Israel was really the wildly belligerant bully you claim, you’d think that those who are likeliest to be on the receiving end would be less inclined towards continually shelling Israeli cities and sending out various murders on their deadly missions too, wouldn’t you?

Israel was heavily criticized for stopping Saddam in his nuclear tracks through a surgical strike, only for most of the world to concede years later that it was a good thing that Saddam was so deprived, and likely the same will be said some time down the road about depriving Syria of nukes as they surely did last fall.

Israel has removed all Israelis from the Gaza and returned hundreds of psychopathic killers to the bosoms of their extended families in exchange for the remains of soldiers who were kidnapped from the other side of the 1948 Armistice lines. If the shelling and homicidal attacks stopped, they’d be withdrawing from the West Bank too. But withdrawal to the 1948 Armistice lines isn’t what Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are militating for. Only fools think this is about withdrawal from the disputed territories.

Israel helped South Africa with their bio-weapons program and may in fact have genetic weapons now. What Zionists learned from the Nazis is to have better PR and to do your killing in a manner that allows you to claim victimhood for yourself.

See: ANTI-SEMITISM & THE BEIRUT POGROM by Fredy Perlman

LanceThruster you vile smears against Israel, the Middle East’s only democratic multicultural state, mark you as the utter scum of the Earth.

Hamas is the democratically elected governement of the Palestinians but Israel chooses to murder and jail them because they did not approve of the choice made by the Palestinians (very undemocratic!).

In keeping with the topic of this thread (and the gist of the Perlman essay), there is not much difference between your attempts at dehumanization and those of the Nazis. You also trot out the old saw about Israel being the region’s only democracy. That is not quite accurate. While it is true that it is a struggling democracy, it is also an apartheid state with a two-tiered justice system.

Half a democracy by Ha’aretz Daily

“Israel chooses to murder and jail them”

Who let this lunatic out?

Nearly Oxfordiann - 24 August 2008, 12:26 pm

Who let this lunatic out?

—–

Nearly Ox - You act in the manner of a brownshirt if you feel someone who disputes the “official narrative” should not be “let out.”

Thousands of Palestinian men, women, and children have not been let out for as long as ten years yet it is you who accuse others of lunacy.

Israel has an open policy of “targeted assassinations” of democratically elected representatives but cry that they have “href=”http://www.counterpunch.org/ruether06032006.html”>no one to talk to.”

Try to bring some facts to the table instead of your typical ad hominems.

LT,

This is the sort of thing that gets one banned from anti-Zionist British Left sites, you know. The fact that you’re still here is kind of to the credit of Harry’s Place. Although I don’t know that anyone wants to go over the terrain you’ve marked out since except to say “So what?” about closure, targeted eliminations, etc. Most of the people at Jews Sans Frontieres and Lenin’s Tomb are really nostalgic for a time in which external actors alone decided the actual (individual and collective) fate of the Jews. Since they cannot wipe out the state of Israel, they remove pro-Zionist debate from “their” blogs.

I notice you’re a bit paranoid about Nes Ziona, but most people aren’t too worried about a biological DEFENCE program being put together by (the descendants of) people who were exterminated with insecticide.

See: “Traces of Poison (Israel’s use of biological weapons)”

http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/%E2%80%9Ctraces-of-poison-israel%E2%80%99s-use-of-biological-weapons%E2%80%9D/

Having been a victim in the past does not confer upon a group some sort of nobility.

Harry’s Place is free to control this site as they see fit.

Um, “poisoning wells” libel again. A good reminder not to be an Egyptian or Iraqi Jew, if one can avoid it. At least in Iraq or Egypt.

The sad thing is that a lot of respectable Israeli one-staters like Haim Hanegbi and Meron Benvenisti were reading (and seriously commenting in Israeli fora) Abu-Sitta’s other stuff on the demographics of a hypothetical one-state solution until he started recycling the bioweapons canards.

Israelis are poisoning Gaza today by letting raw sewage run down into Palestinian land and contaminating aquafers. When they use Palestinian rooftops as lookout posts, they throw things in their cisterns. Nothing has changed. You either do not know the truth, or choose to deny it by swallowing your own propaganda.

Acre is not fiction or libel. It was also written about by Iraqi Jew Naeim Giladi.

See: http://windowintopalestine.blogspot.com/2008/02/flashback-of-zionist-events.html

The story can now be toldthanks to the
International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)
files which have now become available, 50 years
after the event. A series of reports,
under the reference G59/1/GC, G3/82, sent by ICRC
delegate de Meuron from 6 May to about
19 May 1948 describe the conditions of the city
population, struck by a sudden typhoid
epidemic, and the efforts to combat it.

ICRC delegate, de Meuron admired greatly the heroic
efforts of Arab doctors, Al-Dahhan and Al-Araj from
the Lebanese Red Cross hospital in Acre, Dr Dabbas
from Haifa and Mrs Bahai from Haifa.

Acre fell after an exceptionally brief siege. Why would the Israelis cause disease in a city they would shortly have to administer, and one that has kept (to this day) a significant Arab population? To make a big show of curing everyone?

For the rest, everyone knows exactly what you are. I only regret that HP gives you a forum when I, a moderate Zionist, am banned from the relevant “urban policy” threads that were posted with regard to Jenin, where I commented on the comparable experience Haifa and Beirut @ Lenin’s Tomb.