Harry's Place

Can someone send this to John Wight.

Fantastic!
How about emailing this to Chomsky? He seems to have great difficulty applying basic critical analysis to antisemitic and anti-American propaganda.

If in doubt, don’t use the material. Email one of the many anti-racist/anti-fascist organisations and ask [for] advice ****

**** Use common sense. For example, SWP and UCU claim to be anti-racist/anti-fascist, but may not be the best sources of unbiased advice.

it’s the _content_ of the article she (and other ucu members) agreed with. the fact it was on david duke’s site is really just icing on the anti-semitic cake.

as if it matters where the ucu get their anti-semitic articles.

I seek advice. Is some criticism of Israel Antisemitic? Is it based on the idea that Israel is a Jewish State and so hyperbole designed to denigrate Israel is Antisemitic. I get this a lot on messageboards.

Why did you call me an Antisemite when all I was doing was criticising Israel?

I generally regards these statements as Antisemitic:-

Israel’s daily atrocities against the Palestinians (WHAT atrocities?)

Israel murders Palestinian children and gets away with it (WHAT murders are you talking about?)

The Jews think they are the Chosen People and that God gave them this land (But so do Muslims and Christians – its in the Koran and New Testament)

They aren’t real Jews. Jews are semites. These are European Jews with no right to be in Israel (Denial of the Jewish seed of sucession passed by the mother)

Are all these Antisemitic. (Poster at BBC 5Live will recognise many of those quotes)

I would have added just one point to this very useful and informative post:

If it so happens and you read on a neo-Nazi, KKK, BNP or similar website an article which elicits your instinctive agreement and if you consider yourself to be a progressive, anti-racist individual, have the intellectual honesty and plain decency to ask yourself “Have I got things wrong? Did my enthusiasm/rage/preoccupation/obsession carry me across a red line that I should not have crossed? Have I allowed my inner demons to silence all warning signs?”.

This, needless to say, applies not just to anti-Semitic stuff. It applies to all the anti-this-or-other you encounter on this sort of websites: anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, anti-Black, anti-homosexual, anti-Catholic… The list of the pet hates of professional haters is long. If you feel in agreement with some of it, search your heart.

Maven, is this all stuff you copied from that messageboard, with your own comments in parentheses?

“(Denial of the Jewish seed of sucession passed by the mother)”

and of the millions of Jews from Iraq, Egypt, Yemen etc, not actually European countries when I last checked ;-)

I know that I am only a lowly undergraduate, and have a set proceedure set out by the university about how to use sources found through the internet, http://www.reading.ac.uk/library/finding-info/guides/lib-evaluating-websites.asp
its odd that lecturers consider themselves above all that.

excellent advice.

I have been fouled once by a neo-nazi blogger, because there were no links whatsoever for extremist organizations, and at first site it looked like someone who was just discontent with the political and social situation in the country.

plus it was not a marginal, but a person inserted in society, someone who created the impression of being an iconoclast, but not more than that.

he forced the school his daughter was attending to take the cross and any religious symbols out, and it is a fact that the constitution does not allow religious symbols in public schools, so many progressive people were cheated into thinking that he was defending secularism.

the fact that this person posted a smalltext in tribute for srebrenica and that there was no sign of sympaty for the portuguese fascist regime were also factos that missled the readers.

being a former teacher of philosophy, this was a person who was skilled in the words he used.

It happened that this man was a shiah muslim convert and who travelled frequently to iran. I latter came to know, through other sources, that Iran finances the portuguese neo-nazis.

what made me and others suspect was point number 7.

“”": does he/she essentialise different ethnic groupings? Does he/she appear to be paranoid? Or use conspiracy theories? Is there an overriding fixation?”"”

his paranoia quickly denounced him, but what this man does is to open successive blogs, in some he makes a clear apology of nazism, in others he disguises himself as a moderate right winger who is fed up with the political situation. I believe he has managed to attract some people to ‘the cause’.

Thanks to the experience i gained from this case I acquired skills that proved to be very useful.
In a different situation, I discovered an academic who was a muslim fundamentalist and a revisionist but who was disguised as a serious academic and applying for conferences where normal people go by presenting an abstract that didn’t reflect his fundamentalism. He was a Polish muslim convert working in an islamic university in Malasya.
Interestingly, I latter found out a text by a serbian nationalist academic who used this man as a ‘reliable source’ because this ‘author had papers where he portrayed the bosnian muslims and the albanians as radical muslims.

so, in the end, i find very useful to waste some time reading and analysing neo-nazi and nationalist websites, it is an excellent training.

for instance, yesterday I found out that the serbian embassador in Portugal received the neo-nazi party and thanked them for being the only political party to express its solidarity in regard to the independence of kosovo!

Very good, Modernity.

Hysterical tone in the writing is another give away, but people who link to such sites may not have much in the way of tone detectors. Suggest they read it out loud and if it sounds like someone shouting or shrieking at them then it may not be a reliable source of factual information.

thanks to all for the kind comments :)

I just bashed it out in a few minutes whilst pondering Mike Cushman silly remarks on “This has made me crucially aware of how difficult it is to set out rules, even guidelines, for avoiding errors.”

I wonder if someone could post it on the UCU activists list!

I noticed one error Siberia should be Serbia, could a HP admin fix that -thanks

Most fascist and neo-Nazi web sites supported Serbia against NATO, who they thought was part of the new world order, controlled by you know who

Not sharing the same beliefs as neonazis is probably a better way to avoid their websites.

How sad that some people need to be offered such a Noddy’s Guide. Elementary, my dear Modernity.

“Is some criticism of Israel Antisemitic?” Put it another way. What proportion of antisemites are not anti-Israel? The answer to this is obvious and so the onus should be on anti-Israel campaigners to prove that they are not racist by constructing balanced arguments based on verifiable facts. Clearly this is not possible as Israel is not egregiously bad. Hence the ridiculous spectacle of academics seeking to ban discussion of racism.

yeah Alan,

they shouldn’t need this

previously, I was half way thru writing a short jokey “10 ways to spot a jew hater” but I thought it was stating the bleeding obvious, seemingly not with the UCU activists list

I think the decline of anti-fascism has meant that stuff, which would have been picked up years back, gets thru?

it is all very basic, just looking out for signs and common words: NWO, Khazars, etc

Seconding Darren William’s comment – every undergraduate at my uni is given advice on how to evaluate a website – it is part of the mandatory IT assessment when you’re in first year and you can’t progress to level 2 courses until you’ve passed it. I haven’t looked but there’s probably a hand-out available somewhere on teh interwebz. If undergrads can do it, why can’t those who are teaching them?

FINALLY
You wouldn’t fall into the trap of citing Neo-Nazi websites if your political views weren’t a gnat’s pube away from theirs in the first place. Kudos to them, in fact being honest about their prejudice.

You can avoid sharing the political views of Nazis by asking yourself

1. why you deny the legitimate right of the Jewish people to their traditional homeland, yet champion the right of an erstaz nationality to the land (the whole concept of Palestinian Arab nationality was created as a propaganda tool in the mid-1960’s).

2. why you feel that the creation of Arab lands from 96% of Greater Syria is legitimate, while the creation of a Jewish land on the remaining 4% is illegitimate

3. why you call for a Palestinian state to be created on West Bank, rather than the East Bank of the Jordan, when both banks were in the area the West called “Palestine”

4. why, you ignore all the SERIOUS abusers of human rights – Iran, Saudi, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Burma, Syria, North Korea etc. but instead call for a boycott of one of the world’s most liberal countries.

5. why you call for the destruction of a security wall which has, statistically, cut suicide bombings by 90% – yet you don’t call for the dismantling of the terrorist groups that forced its construction. Does a small dark place inside you secretly want lots more Jews to die?

In short either get in touch with your “inner Nazi” and come clean or clean up your nasty, racist tendencies.

The mere fact so many academics can’t distinguish between authentic and false says it all.

obvious neo-Nazi insignia or Celtic symbols

Since when are celtic symbols a sign you’re a neo-nazi?

Some neo-nazis have attempted to conscript the celtic cross to the cause, but celtic crosses are NOT necessarily a symbol one is neo-nazi.

Far from it in fact.

Ultimately, this posting isn’t about the inability of SOME academics to distinguish legitimate sites from those of neo-nazis; rather it’s about OUR loss of the ability to effectively differentiate between right and wrong the way we could a mere 40 years ago.

Such intense moral anomie becomes the fertile petrie dish for the eclosion and growth of radical Islam and countless other cults from the Raelians to the neo-nazis.

The best way to flush out and recognise fascists of all stripes is to keep an eye out for themes revolving around post-Christian ideas, successors to Christ, and zany theories of the Bible, bible prophecy etc.

Just about all fascists, be they Islamists, Fred Phelps, members of David Duke’s crowd or even the Cathars of old…all base their ideologies/cosmologies on the most erroneous and gnostic interpretations of Christian scriptures possible.

For David Duke, Christ was *really*, *really* an aryan and not Jewish at all, and for Muslims ( Nestorians to the last!) Christ *really*, *really* wasn’t crucified at all, rather just a substitute look-alike was.

To spot the neo-nazis, then, is to spot the Christian heretic!

Ditto for many conspiracy theorists, by the way.

I’m not plugging my faith here, I’m trying to help because this theme is something crops up all the time.

Radical Islamists recuit converts by attempting to redefine and pervert Christ’s nature, just as David Duke approaches potential members, many practising Christians, by redefining Christ as an aryan.

That’s the hook, the “loss-leader”, the common kernal to all of these movements.

Mod, good post, but aren’t you assuming that the UCU ‘activists’ actually care whether they link to neo-Nazi filth or not? I honestly don’t think that they give a fuck.

sigh,

“Since when are celtic symbols a sign you’re a neo-nazi”

follow the LINKS I provide, go to neo-nazi web sites, look for CONNECTIONS

I would add this: if you agree with what is written on a fascist website then you should stop and wonder why that might be.

I would also add this: if you are General Secretary of a trade union or if you are moderating an antiracist email list then you should consider at least listening to what the Jews on that list have to say. They may be wrong and they may well not all agree, but you should at least have a listen.

I wouldn’t say that “so many academics” can’t discern a loon from a sane person, JP, but that academics (or non-academics — I am informed on the other Duke thread on HP that many in UCU are not) with loud voices can’t so discern. That’s a bit different, thank goodness. I live and work surrounded by academics and most of them both have sound academic judgment and are not in the grip of extremist politics.

Shmuel:

“Not sharing the same beliefs as neonazis is probably a better way to avoid their websites.”

I was going to make exactly the same point. I understand that we’re only getting the edited highlights, but no one on the activists’ list seems concerned that one of their own has been distributing race hate literature. Either this is because she’s identified as an anti-Zionist and therefore definitionally not antisemitic, and so her concurring with Jewish “conspiracy facts” is no barrier to acceptance; or because her supporters and sympathisers have read the article, found no problem with it, and consider the fact that is happens to have been written by a neo-Nazi and sourced from a neo-Nazi website to be irrelevant to the substance of the article.

Haim Beersheeth seems like quite a character. With his Jewishness/humanity dichotomy he sounds as though he might come from the Gilad Atzmon school. He shows a lot of promise and may prove useful when the other UCU court Jews prove too weak-stomached for tomorrow’s excesses.

“Red Sea Pedestrian” is actually funny.

“7. Having found an article, look up the author’s previous works and ask the questions: does he/she essentialise different ethnic groupings? Does he/she appear to be paranoid? Or use conspiracy theories? Is there an overriding fixation?”
The problem is, the far left has also an overriding fixation. That is a good advice for a sane person, but I am afraid that Jenna Delicity and Haim Mibreshet are not one of those.

From the ADL site

No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol.

modernity:

The preliminary scan of any dodgy web site is fairly simple, just look out for the obvious neo-Nazi insignia or Celtic symbols, combined with some lurid stories or references to Jews.

I think the key point of this is the word “combined” but I think that the same could be said for the Union Flag or the St.George’s Cross.

“Red Sea Pedestrian” is actually funny.

I’m glad you said that as I didn’t want to be the first.

Fabian,

we can only hope, rather optimistically, that Jenna Delich’s “mistake” is a word of warning to others?

and that these UCU ‘activists’ make an effort to educate themselves on the sewer in which many of them swim in, seemingly oblivious to their surroundings or the implications of their actions.

I noticed one error Siberia should be Serbia, could a HP admin fix that -thanks

Fixed.

follow the LINKS I provide, go to neo-nazi web sites, look for CONNECTIONS

Modernity, Ireland is covered with celtic crosses. The graveyards of rural Ontairo villages founded by Irish immigrants are chock full of celtic crosses as well.

The point of your posting was to highlight the inability of some academics to distinguish legitimate sites from those run by neo-nazis.

The celtic cross is being used to anchor legitimise and drape perverse neo-nazi ideologies in the mantle of Christianity, but the cross itself remains thoroughly Christian.

The celtic cross, then, isn’t a “symbol” of pagan aryanism anymore than Christ can be a symbol/prophet of Islam.

Don’t confuse the symbol with the USE ( misuse actually) of that symbol by opportunistic brownshirts attempting to expropriate its meaning, its cultural weight, for narrow partisan goals representing anything BUT what the symbol actually stands for.

Islamist recuiters are BIG on Christ, just as David Duke is big on Celtic crosses, but neither Christ nor Celtic Crosses are either neo-pagan or Islamic.

A more recent example of this, and one which will appeal to atheists here, is the ongoing and accelerating expropriation of progressive vocabulary by neonazis of all stripes to confuse and hoodwink propsective recruits/converts.

Both David Duke AND radical islamists now claim to be *inclusive*, *feminist* and *egalitarian*, and so does the use of those terms by any ordinary individual now mean that that individual is a neo-nazi?

It’s about METHODS, Modernity.

You spot them by their methods, their themes, and not by the symbols.

The symbols are just there to confuse and deceive, and their use often proves ephemeral and temporary because of changing circumstances and changing cliental

To rely, consequently, on the presence of this symbol or that symbol as a sure-fire, proof-positive method of identifying and defining these outfits is perhaps not wise.

What we need to do is acquire the ability to immediately spot instances of mimicry and deception involving the manipulative misuseof deeply ingrained cultural themes and icons.

It’s olfactory, Watson; we need a nose for bullshit.

Well done, Modernity.

Off topic:

The use of the term “Palestinian” prior to 1948 or 1967 strikes me as a largely irrelevant issue.

People’s identities change over time: as a result of political and ideological context. Jews living in the British mandate prior to 1948 didn’t call themselves Israelis, but do now. What changed was the creation of an Israeli state. They have been joined by Jews whose families originated in Yemen, Persia, Bulgaria, Greece, Poland, and so on: and Muslims and Druze who also call themselves Israelis. These are people defined by their citizenship.

Similarly, Egyptians started to call themselves Arabs when an Arab political and social identity arose. Similarly, so does the ruling class of Sudan. Nevertheless, Sudanese and Egyptians are distinct from (say) Saudia or Algerian Arabs. However, all may regard themselves as belonging to the same pan-Arab family: irrespective of their ethnic origins and genetic heritage.

That Palestinian Arabs generally call themselves Palestinians nowadays, in expectation of a Palestinian state being created at some point should be sufficient.

The use of the term ‘Palestinian’ by the pan-Islamist groups is more problematic. Hamas, for example, might thinks of the people it rules as Palestinian Arab Muslims: and those Christian Arabs who will be allowed to live in Palestine under Islamic law as ‘People of the Book’, but with different and limited citizenship rights. However, it is not primarily focussed on nationality, or ethnicity. Rather, Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, and envisages the creation of a Caliphate stretching throughout Muslim lands.

Hamas spokesmen therefore tend to talk of Palestinian self-determination as only a part of the process of creating such a Caliphate. The only time I have heard Palestinian nationhood denied on BBC Radio 4, it was in this fashion, by a Hamas spokesman.

In short, whether or not the concept of a Palestinian existed in the past, it certainly began to make sense after significant numbers of Arabs without Israeli citizenship, and with an expectation of self determination, came under Israeli rule.

TIM

Can someone send this to John Wight.

And Mick Napier.

JOHNP

Modernity, Ireland is covered with celtic crosses. The graveyards of rural Ontairo villages founded by Irish immigrants are chock full of celtic crosses as well.

Similar goes for the swastika in India and China. Now, if I saw a site advertizing cultural traditions of said nations, I would look at the angle of the symbol and of the axis of symetry, consider the material – does it go on about Jews a lot – and make a decision. If I saw a Celtic cross, I would look for jolly green leprechauns and stuff about St Columba and selkies, consider the material – does it go on about Jews a lot, does it have pictures of Australian bitches – and make a decision.

Simple, huh?

What do my mother has in common with JP?

well, when I was living with her, sometimes I liked to please her by cleaning up the house or preparing a meal while she was out, so that she would be happy and be able to rest for a while.

but, everytime I did that, she would find something ridiculously small and then complain that it was not clean enough, or that the food had too much pepper or something like that.

here’s JP:

“”"” obvious neo-Nazi insignia or Celtic symbols”"”"

“Since when are celtic symbols a sign you’re a neo-nazi?

Some neo-nazis have attempted to conscript the celtic cross to the cause, but celtic crosses are NOT necessarily a symbol one is neo-nazi.”

MAN, in what world do you live??????????????

don’t you see how ridiculous such argument is?

I have a fascist professor in the faculty where I studied. He assumes publicly that he is a fascist and advocates the political regime of singapore as the best of those currently existing.

in his office he has a big flag with a portuguese national symbol called cruz de cristo.

the cruz de cristo is not a fascist symbol per se. the portuguese navy and air force use it as their symbols.

but portuguese fascists and ‘integrists’ (those who opposed fascism because fascism was not fascist enough) sistematically hijack this symbol.

it’s the same thing with celtic crosses.

JP:

your iconoclasm makes a foul out of you. I am sorry that you don’t seem to realize that. it leads you nowhere.

of course you are free to think what you want. but you seem almost incapable to have a constructive debate. don’t you feel tired after a while?

“but the cross itself remains thoroughly Christian.”

JP, what is it with you? are you going to join UCU activists list too?

the point (which other people have ably demonstrated) is about putting the connections together when you visit WEB sites, not graveyards, that’s web sites

the key word above was COMBINED

if you see Celtic crosses and certain symbols, a lot of anti-Jewish stuff then it is highly probable (again not 100% in all cases) that the WEB site (not the Graveyard) is affiliated to neo-nazis or their friends

is that clear enough for you?

or are you just being argumentative for the sake of it?

Relate to the subject.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1219572118594&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

“A more recent example of this, and one which will appeal to atheists here”

Why exactly does this have anything to do with atheism, and why should ["will"? LOL] it appeal to atheists?

Disappointing. We know how energetically the Canadians fight antisemitism, but I had hoped for better from the Australians.

“In short, whether or not the concept of a Palestinian existed in the past, it certainly began to make sense after significant numbers of Arabs without Israeli citizenship, and with an expectation of self determination, came under Israeli rule”

It was invented in 1965, when there were no ’significant numbers of Arabs without Israeli citizenship’. And the inventors were quite upfront about their reason for inventing it: purely as a tool for destroying Israel in stages.

‘… under Israeli rule’, of course.

In the hope of clarifying a small point.
What is labelled a celtic cross on the symbol guide, is in fact a pagan sunwheel. The celtic cross JohnP is on about is conventional Christian Cross with a long stem and a circle around the crossbar.

Variations resembling the Celtic cross, and the sun cross from which it is derived, have been adopted by some white nationalist and neo-fascist groups. These supporters usually use a very basic variation of the design which is made up of simple lines, without any of the ornamental complexity of traditional Celtic crosses. In these recent adaptations, it is sometimes also called a sun wheel. It is used by white nationalists due to the fact[citation needed] that the sun and the cross both play prominent roles in various western religions. The symbol can also sometimes be identified with radical nationalists of a Third Positionist or Catholic nationalist persuasion. Image File history File links Celtic-style_crossed_circle. … Image File history File links Celtic-style_crossed_circle. … White nationalism is the attempt to create racial identity groups which advance the social and economic interests of White or Caucasian people. … The terms Neo-Nazism and Neo-Fascism refer to any social or political movement to revive Nazism or Fascism, respectively, and postdates the Second World War. … A Caddo solar cross, to Southeastern Native Americans a symbol of both the sun and fire. … International Third Position was a group formed by Nick Griffin and Derek Holland as a continuation of the Political Soldier movement. …

This new political connotation has almost eclipsed the traditional meaning of the symbol in France, Italy and many other European countries. In France, the symbol was adopted by the groups Occident and the Groupe Union Droit. In Italy, the symbol has been banned from being shown within stadiums, as it is considered a sign of fascism and racism. For other uses, see Europe (disambiguation). … Occident, like many similar groups, used the celtic cross as its emblem. … Groupe Union Droit or Groupe Union Défense, better known as GUD, is the name of a succession of violent French far-right student political groups. …

More here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Celtic-cross#Political-symbol

and here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sun-cross

(And it strikes me that I did not follow any of Mod’s advice before linking to a site called “nationmaster”. I should certainly be whipped like Max Mosley.)

“Nearly Oxfordian”, before you’re done poisoning another thread, you might consider returning to this thread in order to apologise to Roger. It hasn’t gone unnoticed that having continually called him an antisemite, you ran away immediately it was pointed out that you did so on the basis of a quotation that you falsely attributed to him.

Or you could just promise to disappear as soon as Mel’s back from her holidays.

Missing from this article is any reference to Duke being a member of the US Republican Party. Maybe a Fool Proof Guide Not to Have a Nazi Member In One’s Party is in order, don’t you think?

And since Duke contaminates everything, it would be advisable for all decent and well-behaving people not to vote or support, much less join, the Republican Party until it expels Duke, wouldn’t it?

But curiously, nothing is said about this. Ah, the double standards…

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf wrote:

“But curiously, nothing is said about this. Ah, the double standards…”

the post is a BRIEF guide to the topic, it is NOT meant as a biography of David Duke.

but please don’t accuse anyone of bad faith or double standards, simply because it is not written as you would like it to be

and if you know about Duke then you’d know he went to prison, as well? but I didn’t include that in either, because it was NOT central to the point?

thank you for your positive contribution!

Can someone ask Tim to stop stalking me from thread to thread, poisoning them with his constant lies, both personal and general?

Gene?

I am trying to keep out of his way and simply ignore his ongoing venom and bile, so perhaps a word from you?

What is generally meant by people who say ‘there is no such thing as a Palestinian’ is ‘… and so they should not object to living in Judea and Samaria under Israeli occupation’.

Given that we’re talking about people who are actually living in the West Bank and Gaza who want to rule themselves, this is a pretty poor argument.

It is akin to the ‘Arabs are semites but Jews are Khazars’ in terms of crapness.

er, David, are we straying a bit?

David, did they want to rule themselves under the Jordian jackboot, if they are not Arabs but a distinct nation? I don’t remember them saying so.

I don’t know what is ‘generally’ meant. I know what I mean, and I know that they were offered this chance many times, but rejected it.

Nearly Oxfordian,

I don’t mean to be rude, but there are OTHER threads open for this type of discussion and your comments here detract from the post.

if you wish to have a dingdong on the middle east why not take it to this thread and I will reply:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/08/22/ucu-and-the-david-duke-fan/

Sorry

I really don’t understand this post. (Although I understand its written very tongue-in-cheek)

So if the same article was written by someone who was not a neonazi, its content would have been acceptable? The interesting point is not that this person failed to recognize that the website was a neonazi one, but that UCU members and neonazis have so much in common. This is the point made when MPAC links to such sites, so I’m not sure why a different tack is taken here. Perhaps it’s because certain individuals, as loyal leftists, are loathe to admit that their political parties are infested with racists? Rather than realize this in a straightforward manner, people sit around “Engaging” in lengthy discussions over the subtleties of what is and isn’t racist. Toothless.

I am sorry I annoyed you, modernity. I was simply replying to another post. Me bad … ;-)))

Not sure I follow you, Shmuel. It has been said many times on this site, quite openly, that many UCU members are antisemites and that left-wing political parties are infested with antisemites. So what exactly is your beef?

This post (as I understand it) is a piece of satire, a dig at the stupidity and hypocrisy of those who sought to justify the article by saying that it was simply a mistake and that it was ‘found innocently “on google” ‘, whatever that last bit is supposed to mean (how do you find Duke on google other than by searching for Duke, or white supremacists, or neonazis, or something like that?).

Sure, you can have a go at other aspects of their stupidity and hypocrisy and antisemitism, but this is a legitimate target, imo.

No mention of classes and the need for working class unity in Mods blog, I see

I think I shall go to Harry Morgan and have a bowl of chicken soup.

If I saw a Celtic cross, I would look for jolly green leprechauns and stuff about St Columba and selkies, consider the material – does it go on about Jews a lot, does it have pictures of Australian bitches – and

Ha! Ha!

You’re missing the point, Alec, or perhaps I,m not explaining myself well enough.

The Far Right has expropriated the Celtic cross for racist purposes, but it is not the use of a celtic cross itself that is important , but rather THE PROCESS BY WHICH IT WAS EXPROPRIATED WITHOUT OPPOSITION AND THEN HARNASSED TO THE FAR RIGHT AGENDA.

Leon Uris, a Jew, used a celtic cross on the cover of his novel Trinity, but that was back in the days before it had undergone Far right expropriation.

These are powerful cultural icons that can exert an enormous attraction and so if there was a way to anticipate the *unauthorised* use of a particular cultural icon, then those expropriations, probably the most important Far right propaganda tool of all, would no longer be so easy.

And if all the righteous, anti-racist activists here were so spot-on with their analysis and understanding of the whole Far Right paradigm, and if they were so capable of clearly identifying the salient points of that whole paradigm, then why is it Far Right anti-semitic Islamists have their hooks into just about every aspect of British society?

The Far right, the ONLY Far Right that counts these days, isn’t hanging its ideas on the points of a celtic cross, but rather floats them on the AUDIBLE SYMBOLS, THE VOCABULARY, of what was once respectable progressivism.

Perhaps had we been on the lookout for blond, bleu-eyed young white men sporting celtic crosses a few years back, July 7th and 911 could have been avoided!

Missing from this article is any reference to Duke being a member of the US Republican Party. Maybe a Fool Proof Guide Not to Have a Nazi Member In One’s Party is in order, don’t you think?

And since Duke contaminates everything, it would be advisable for all decent and well-behaving people not to vote or support, much less join, the Republican Party until it expels Duke, wouldn’t it?

But curiously, nothing is said about this. Ah, the double standards…

“Mote-beam” arguments emphasising the *hypocrisy* of anti-fascist campaigners, especially when those campaigners are Jewish, is another more recent and indelible sign of a Far Right mindset.

One hears that *tone*, for example, all the time at places like CIF when subjects involving either Jews or Israel are discussed

Yet nary a celtic cross is to be found anywhere on CIF’s website.

Then again, what would be the point when you’re blogging the Koran.

Shmuel wrote:

“I really don’t understand this post. (Although I understand its written very tongue-in-cheek)”

yes, it was tongue in cheek and written rather quickly, on reflection I should have done an introduction, but I had thought that most of it would obvious?

as the above (ex-)students pointed out it is perfectly possible to distinguish neo-Nazi web sites, holocaust revisionist stuff from say, a general web site on the middle east, but there are a range of “cross over” web sites which seek to WIDEN the audience for Extreme Right material and I was, albeit imperfectly, pointing that out, and how to spot them.

I will remember to emphasize that point, if I ever update this type of post.

I have noticed over the years how the Extreme Right has become far more sophisticated in marketing their ideas, they don’t tend to shove Mein Kampf up people’s noses (even if that’s what they’d like to do), rather they play to contemporary prejudices and angle themselves in.

Shmuel rightly points out the contents of the article should have rung alarm bells?

but then again if someone doesn’t appreciate that neo-Nazis and Klan type tend to push articles that coincide with their own sentiments then they might not be able to see the racist content of such articles without assistance?

all in all, I think that some individuals on the UCU activists list would still need a simplified check list to help them see the breadth of these issues, including the racist content, let alone the obvious warning signs.

spgb gray comments:

No mention of classes and the need for working class unity in Mods blog, I see

Modernity,

Heinous crime! 25 years hard labour in Siberia for reeducation with no right of communication.

damn Mikey! I’ve been found out, those cunning Danish SPGBers they can spot a capitalist running-dog of Bush-neoconism at 50 meters, I am ashamed, my bacon is cooked

still plenty of material for a new intro:

“this guide is not an introduction to dialectical materialism, National Socialism and its organic relationship towards capitalism in the 20th century, nor is it a detailed biography of David Duke, Celtic crosses, the joys of windy Irish graveyards, or a degree course in literary criticism and racist content of web sites, rather it is for those perplexed UCU activists that have problems working out what is a neo-Nazi web site, or if they are reading too much from Klan news for comfort.

Please don’t take it too literally, enjoy it and try to use some commonsense if a web site you’ve just connected to offers you a discount on brownshirts or the works of Julius Streicher, disconnect now!”

I see Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf has (finally) appeared over at Harry’s Place. He has been polluting the pages of Engage for a while now. His fantasies about Jews Jews include, that they have dual loyalties, that they control the world’s press, that Jews poison wells and so on and so forth.

His most recent “contribution” is the idea (apparently common on the UCU activist list too) that whilst antisemitic libels were not true in the past, they are, indeed, true now.

In short, Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf is a racist scumbag.

Feel free to take a look, but be prepared to hold your nose.

I have noticed over the years how the Extreme Right has become far more sophisticated in marketing their ideas, they don’t tend to shove Mein Kampf up people’s noses (even if that’s what they’d like to do), rather they play to contemporary prejudices and angle themselves in.

Define “Extreme Right”?

HOw many copies of Mein Kampf are sold in the UK and Europe, Modernity, compared to the millions of radical, hate-filled wahabbi tapes, cassettes, pamphlets, videos, DVDs and books, none of which contain a celtic cross, peddled across Europe and the UK every year?

And how many copies of Mein Kampf are sold in Mid-East countries compared to neo-nazi circles in Europe?

How many in comparison?

Has it ever occured to you that anti-semitism can be the motivation pushing some westerners to convert to Islam?

I wouldn’t invest too much money in Mein Kampf stocks if I were you because unlike other, far more popular works, it doesn’t promote anti-semitism as a healthy and integral part of a “whole-way-of-life”.

Like a high-fibre bearkfast and good nutrition.

In the U.S. Ingrid Mattson a wahabbi convert, extremist and spokesman for radical islamist front organisations, has been invited to speak at the DNC convention.

She’s radical Islam’s ‘interfaith’ point-girl, but no one suspects her of any untoward motives because she is relgious and pious and reassures her audiences, audiences in which anti-fascist campaigners are present in spades, that wahabbism is simply a form of Protestant reformation.

David Duke and his neo-nazi followers, who certainly do not number in the tens of millions, don’t mean all that much anymore.

The learning curve on this isn’t just slow, it’s as straight as an arrow!

“It has been said many times on this site, quite openly, that many UCU members are antisemites and that left-wing political parties are infested with antisemites.”

I’m not sure that any of regular writer of this blog would commit to such a statement. Today’s fad is to distinguish between “real old fashioned racists”, and “accidentally racist anti-zionists” who just happen to regularly use antisemitic rhetoric. However, I don’t find this distinction useful and, on the contrary, I think it damages liberal causes.

p.s. I always understood that this was a joke. I just think its the wrong joke.

JP,

I’ll let Graham explain it to you, he’s got bags of patience, but in the interim see http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

that might help, I somehow doubt it tho.

Oh bless

the never ending (half) wit Mikey, HPs trusty virulant anti commie

Mod

running dogs, capitalist roaders et al is the language of the chinese ideologues for (state) capitalist China (certainly in the past)

spgb gray,

how does that all relate to the fight against anti-Jewish racism within UCU?

http://judeoarabconspiracy.blogspot.com/2008/07/celebrating-ones-own-terrorists.html

Come on, Alberto José Miyara, aka “Ibrahim Ibn Yussuf”. You are embarrasing yourself. You, an engineering teacher at an Argentinian University in Rosario making the director of the Archives of Yad Vashem waste his time, telling him that you are an Arab.

But Alberto, you have zero of an Arab in you. You are a half Jew (on your father’s side) and half Christian and a total tit. Citing Popper! The nerve! I hope your students or your prospective employers google this when they want to know more about Alberto José Miyara.

Here you are “Abraham Benyosef”
http://elcomandante.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/diccionario-para-entender-el-conflicto/#comment-1070

And here, less than eight hours later, but on the same thread, you become “Ibrahim Ibn Yussuf”.
http://elcomandante.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/diccionario-para-entender-el-conflicto/#comment-1173

You certainly have some issues.

Ciao!

http://judeoarabconspiracy.blogspot.com/2008/07/celebrating-ones-own-terrorists.html

Come on, Alberto José Miyara, aka “Ibrahim Ibn Yussuf”. You are embarrasing yourself. You, an engineering teacher at an Argentinian University in Rosario making the director of the Archives of Yad Vashem waste his time, telling him that you are an Arab.

But Alberto, you have zero of an Arab in you. You are a half Jew (on your father’s side) and half Christian and a total tit. Citing Popper! The nerve! I hope your students or your prospective employers google this when they want to know more about Alberto José Miyara.

Here you are “Abraham Benyosef”
http://elcomandante.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/diccionario-para-entender-el-conflicto/#comment-1070

And here, less than eight hours later, but on the same thread, you become “Ibrahim Ibn Yussuf”.
http://elcomandante.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/diccionario-para-entender-el-conflicto/#comment-1173

You certainly have some issues.

http://judeoarabconspiracy.blogspot.com/2008/07/celebrating-ones-own-terrorists.html

“Today’s fad is to distinguish between “real old fashioned racists”, and “accidentally racist anti-zionists” who just happen to regularly use antisemitic rhetoric. However, I don’t find this distinction useful and, on the contrary, I think it damages liberal causes”

I wouldn’t argue with that all. I think that not only is this not a useful distinction, but in addition it is a demagogic one; it is wheeled out to deflect and obfuscate.

All I am saying is that there is more than one aspect to this issue.

“You certainly have some issues”

That’s not the half of it. That last link points to a whole page written by someone who doesn’t understand the first thing about logic, never mind history.

Mod

not much really eh! Was just responding to that typical sleight (off to the gulag) from Mikey.and “answering” the heading on your post

Using material requires thought on the part of the student (101 Study skills surely?)

My point is that the working class interest, socialist point of view is as good or better “filter”

John P: Ingrid Mattson .. has been invited to speak at the DNC convention:

Can’t find her on the list of speakers on the DNC website.

spgb gray wrote:

“My point is that the working class interest, socialist point of view is as good or better “filter””

check out the UCU activists list and see what racism comes out of those “activists”

Haven’t we just been discussing the SWP’s lurch towards antisemitism only recently? Or are they not good enough socialists for spgb?

Who decides what is a socialist point of view, spgb? Yours is a sleight of hand, a circular argument, or at best an appeal to authority. Doesn’t work, I am afraid.

My point is that the working class interest, socialist point of view is as good or better “filter”

Is this a British thing or a stupid thing (or both)? Why would anyone willingly choose to impose an ideological filter on themselves? And talk baout it as if it were a good thing. Is that why people think they belong to political parties in Britain…as a means to provide a consistent form of bias? It would explain a lot to me though. The Guardian mentality still baffles me. And I’ve never heard someone in the US talk that way about party membership.

I’m a little sad that Modernity pointed these things out to the so-called “UCU Activists”. It’s entertaining seeing the douchbags among them squirm when they’re made fools of.

How to avoid neocons:

Google:
“Human beings” -hurryupharry.org

Hmm.. Flanker. Unless my appreciation of set theory is incomplete, you seem to be suggesting that all human beings who are not involved with hurryupharry.org are not neocons. Since none of George W Bush’s cabinet have ever, to my knowledge, posted to this forum, I am interested to see you no longer consider them thus.

In summary: if you’re going to try and do jokey responses to jokey articles, try harder.

Oh, and, PS, did you enjoy the article on “Dave” Duke’s website? He’s not a neocon, so therefore must be non-evil, if I understand your dipoles right.

“Is this a British thing or a stupid thing (or both)?”

Why do you think it has anything to do with being British? You wouldn’t be suffering from irrational hatred of the British, would you?

Post, spgb is also set-theory challenged: s/he thinks that all socialists are non-racists.

A day in the life of an spgb gray show trial:

“Shoot these rabid dogs. Death to this gang who hide their ferocious teeth, their eagle claws, from the people! Down with that vulture Trotsky, from whose mouth a bloody venom drips, putrefying the great ideals of Marxism! Let’s put these liars outr of harm’s way, these miserable pygmies who dance around rotting carcasses! Down with these abject animals! Let’s put an end once and for all to these miserable hybrids of foxes and pigs, these stinking corpses! Let their horrible squeals finally come to an end! Let’s exterminate the mad dogs of capitalism, who want to tear to pieces the flower of our new Soviet nation! Let’s push the bestial hatred they bear our leaders back down their own throats!

spgb gray is emulating Andrei Vyshinksy at the prosecutor at the show trials in Moscow as quoted by Stéphane Courtois in the conclusion of The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press, 1999) pp. 749-750

Just as a point of information, I don’t think you can be “expelled” from the Republican or Democrat party in the US simply for holding different views than the party leadership, or even the majority of the party membership.

There clearly is a major difference between the dominant political parties in the UK and those in the US.

Shmuel does have a point, although he was less than tactful in expressing it.

“My point is that the working class interest, socialist point of view is as good or better “filter”

Don’t you mean bias towards the point of view of the cult of Marxism.

spgb gray claims his party’s version of socialism has never been tried. How convenient.

“Shmuel does have a point, although he was less than tactful in expressing it.”

Oh sorry. But please! As if Americans have nothing to be embarrassed about! Get over yourselves. ;)

(So to answer my own question, it is (3) a stupid British thing. I’m glad the non-stupid British people recognize it as such.)

Just as a point of information, I don’t think you can be “expelled” from the Republican or Democrat party in the US simply for holding different views than the party leadership, or even the majority of the party membership.

Right. There is no strict “membership” in either party. In some states, when you register to vote, you register as a Republican or Democrat, which entitles you to vote in party primaries. (You can also register as an independent.) In other states, you declare your party when you go to vote in primaries, so you can receive the proper ballot. There’s no way you can be “expelled” from either party.

What would be more interesting is to find out how Delich actually found the article in the first place?

Was she merely surfing the web looking under keywords? (and if so, what were these?) or was it recommended to her? (and if so, by whom?), or was it referred to on another site? (and if so, what site?). I would love to know the answer to this as it could give you a far greater insight into Delich’s positions/views/sources.

What do you think, Gene? Should political parties be allowed to expel members who occasionally shit on the party planks?

Hyndman’s racism inter alia was exposed by the SPGB already in 1904 (when it was founded by former members of the Social Democratic Federation)

One of the priniples of the SPGB from its deceleration (drafted then and still held today) is

“That as in the order of social evolution the working class is the last class to achieve its freedom, the emancipation of the working class will involve the emancipation of all mankind, without distinction of race or sex.”

the SWP says it is socialist, but when you look at its definition of socialism it clearly stands for State Capitalism (nationalisation or turning the means of production into state ownership is not socialism as commodity production on the basis of wage labour would still exist)

A “socialist” who is a racist is certainly someone who would be expelled from the Socialist Party

Mikey

???

Shmuel, what pretentious nonsense.

“the SWP says it is socialist, but when you look at its definition of socialism it clearly stands for State Capitalism (nationalisation or turning the means of production into state ownership is not socialism as commodity production on the basis of wage labour would still exist)”

Oh, right, we are into how-many-angels-on-a-pinhead country now. I forgot that you are spgb, not (god forbid, they are worse than Hitler) wspgb or swpgb or spwgb.

Nearly Oxfordian

Humpty Dumpty would have it that words meant anything he wanted them to mean.

When somebody says they are socialist, what they stand for should be examined. In the 1980s, the Socialist Workers Party produced a pamphlet called “The Future Socialist Society” (by John Molyneux). The pamphlet clearly states that the SWP view “socialism” as nationalisation.

SPGB stands for “the Socialist Party of Great Britain”, btw

spgb gray,

Everyone who has a lick o’ sense or who even has the slightest ability to feed the masses have rejected your model. Why? Because it doesn’t fucking work. Want to help society? Then stop pestering the shit out of people who actually DO help society.

spgb, I am perfectly aware of what it stands for. But you have not patented the word ’socialism’: there are plenty of groups out there calling themselves ’socialist’ who disagree with you, sometimes on large issues and sometimes on where to hold the next rave. The venomous hatred between trivially varying shades of socialism is well known, indeed it has become self-parody.
At any rate, your rivals – those who are pink/red rather than red/pink – are as socialist as you are.

how Delich actually found the article in the first place? I think I recall her writing that she had Googled “Israel” and “atrocities in Gaza” or some such, but days have now passed and several threads perused, so I can longer be sure.

I marvel at the need for whole courses and tutorials which are now degree requirements, according to the link posted by the student from Reading on the previous thread, on How to Avoid Believing Everything you Read on on the Net.

In my day some of us managed to work it out for ourselves. It comes to mind how, back in the mists of the interweb, an erstwhile SWP JSG friend emailed me an article on Israel with no links or attribution, saying I should find it interesting. The contents prompted me to Google key words in it, and I found it came from something I had not yet encountered, electronic intifada. I browsed it and despite the apparent balance of its sources, it rapidly became clear what their agenda was.
I emailed my friend flagging up where it came from, and requesting her to desist from the discourteous, misleading and sometimes dangerous practice of sending on and endorsing stuff without links or other clues as to provenance (pace Mr Cushman and his provence) .

I would add to the advice that left people educate themselves about fascism and Nazism, that they educate themselves about the creeds they purport to adhere to. My friend, as I have previously mentioned here, had never heard the phrase useful idiot, and was shocked when I called her one, thinking I was querying her intellectual capacity. (Which I suppose I was.).

In a recent publication I was given, from a left therapeutic group whose recently deceased founder was a Communist in 1950s USA, he is quoted with approval as having said how he admired the “classical writings” of Lenin and Mao. I wondered which those were, as opposed to the other kind, and wondered if his followers know anything about either kind, while blindly following his precepts.

Ami, useful idiots have an endless capacity for blindness and delusion. They can even admire the ‘classical writings’ of Lenin and Mao and make themselves forget that these are 2 of the worst mass-murderers of the 20th (or any) century. Of course, if you suggested that Mein Kampf is in the same category they’d be thoroughly shocked.

Mod, may I add to the praise for this piece.

John P: a Celtic cross in a graveyard is one thing, as is a swastika in a Hindu temple or as a charm on a Raksha Bandan bracelet. Context, JP, context.

Ami: in my experience also, ideologues are blind to anything other than that with which they agree. They do it in alt-med discussions, too. There was a time, back when the internet was all just fields, in about 1994, when I assumed pasted links must lead to some argument winning evidence, and I would click on them with trepidation.

That didn’t last very long.

“There was a time, back when the internet was all just fields”

LOL. Love it!

testing

I am actually partial to “Red Sea Pedestrian”.

You made no mention of referencing David Irving afirmatively, or commenting on the jewish/Zionist plot to deny him his freedom of Speeck rights (by the use of English libel laws).

ironically, in light of the Irving “trial that wasn’t”, many Neo-NAZI sites (allegedly) are rather hostile to David Irving, at least in person.

Soon, you won’t be able to hide from the Truth. More and more people are waking up to Jewish lies and hypocrisy. Nothing is as evil as Jewish Supremacism. Nothing. The Talmud … no comment.

Robert Wilson is neither an anti-semite nor a racist. heres why: 1-he apparently has read the Talmud, no mean feat; 2-he no doubt meant to say Zionist but he forgot; 3-anyone can make a mistake

Folks, I am so happy that this works!
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bye all

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Hello… ;)

There is another layer to this that more and more people are learning to pick up on. As kids we were told, spanked and “grounded” by our well-meaning parents. It may have been hell at the time, but we eventually forgive our parents, decide that “we had it coming” or “deserved it” and move on.

Because of that, we are all prone to falling into the “Father Knows Best” reflex obedience mode. The Milgram Experiments should be studied again and brought out of hiding. Also, there was an experiemnt in the 60s where someone divided people up randomly into “prisoners” and “guards” and let them have the run of a dormitory that doubled as a laboratory prison. As I remembered it, the little psychological study lasted less than a week. Some people had breakdowns, others became sadists.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I’m the only one in this world. Can please someone join me in this life? Or maybe death…