Harry’s Place

Please take as read my admiration for your stand.

I wonder whether Engage is a little too optimistic. It may be the first ‘crumbling’, but is it really the final one?

Jenna Delich did not complain to Daily.co.uk. That is an outrageous slander.

I should know, because it was me.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! I’ve caught you out now, you fools!

Welcome back HP, I’m sure Benji was weeping over the lack of somewhere to show his firm indifference to everything

Welcome back…

And yet the issue is (also) Delich, Cushman and the lot that complained to your former ISP.

It was crystal-clear to all and sundry that nobody “slandered” Delich. What HP has, rightly, done was to highlight the dark wormhole extending from obsessive boycotters to a neo-Nazi website and its associated filth. And it did so by highlighting facts that are not in dispute.

Essentially, this lot is a bunch of would-be Stalinists. That’s why their response was to use the gutlessness of an ISP and the ridiculous British label laws to shut the voices with which they disagree and to hide inconvenient facts. (In another place, day and age they would have sent HP people to the Gulag or shot them in the nape of the neck, it is rather encouraging that they are reduced to use the tools of The Evil Capitalist State.) Hopefully, all this made a minor scandal into a major one.

it is worth noting that Quinn believes Mossad carried out the Madrid bombings.

It’s worse than that.

He thinks that al-Qaeda is entirely a Mossad creation.

Have you seen what Lenin’s tomb has to say?

http://leninology.blogspot.com/

literally makes you sick

Sounds exactly like a rapist blaming the victim for provoking him

Furthermore, it is also worth stressing that although Delich has apologised for linking to a David Duke website, she has not apologised for the content of the article itself, written by the anti-semitic lunatic Joe Quinn. Indeed, in her apology, she maintains that the article itself contains some ‘amazing facts’

Sincere apologies once again though for picking the wrong website, but it’s the article that I found interesting as it gives some amazing facts and it was not written by David Duke

She really does not get it.

Oh great more HP, more of HP desperately pimping its arts section that nobody reads. Seriously your opinion of the arts is about as bad as your opinion on politics, but the reason people (a dozen or so) only want to read your politics is because you are controversial. No need to thank me.

So, Fwanker, what do you think of all this. Going to parade to support Comrade Delich in her battle against the Zionazis?

Have you seen what Lenin’s tomb has to say?

Fucking hell, I stopped after the first paragraph. That’s the problem with Lenin, not only is he an immoral poser, he is incapable of being concise, using 30 words where 4 will do, and absolutely loves his the sound (or sight) of his own voice (or words).

To give him his due however, someone who calls himself Lenin is not going to be someone committed to free speech, so what else did we expect from him? He is wrong about almost everything - fortunately, he has absolutely no power

‘Lenin’ does not get it either -

In and of itself the story does not appear to be antisemitic or fascist - although its author, who is not David Duke, may well be. It was reproduced from another website, which is apparently devoted to ‘alternative’ theories about 9/11 and other major events (both paranormal and parapolitical). It may be objectionable for other reasons, or it may contain alarming formulations, but a casual reader might easily read it and mistake it for a useful summary of facts.

Oh dear.

Lord ha haws . They hate democracy and hate pluralism.

Anti-humanist reactionaries, the lot of them.

Phew! Thought we’d lost you lot there. Keep up the fight!

As we’ve argued before, there’s a fight on here, for the spirit of the Left.

Blimey. Stirring stuff. Time for another manifesto then? How about a breakfast reception? A meeting in a pub?

Welcome back!

Jeff,

Lenin’s Tomb is always sickening.

“Delich … is an academic”

Is that defamation?

“HP’s attempts to intimidate UCU academics”

That most certainly is defamatory.

Congratulations on your return! May this new DNS provider continue to be devoted to defending your freedom of speech.

Oh, Benjamin: witty!
No, really …
Oh, all right then: merely dumb.

Ah, good ol’ Benji.

you should sue them for defamation

Perhaps we should start a boycott Jenna Delich campaign.

Unless she can prove she didn’t know just who David Duke was, she should be subjected to disciplinary measures.

At least she’s been suspended from the activist list.

Even though she should be suspended from her feet.

If an academic had linked to the BNP’s site whilst doing some research on Islamism, you and your pals (Seymour) would come down on them like a tonne of bricks. This moral grandstanding with reguard to people’s careers doesn’t wash.

Obviously HP are very concerned about the crossover between the far left and far right on issues to do with Israel. You don’t even attempt to address that in this post, Seymour.

Very weak I’m afraid.

Good to have you back. I liked Lenin’s article, which essentially states that the material wasn’t antisemitic of itself, that by highlighting her “mistake” you’re repressing her free speech, and that although he doesn’t support the bourgeois libel laws, she was slandered and it was a fair response, and if you don’t think so you should listen to that guy Cushman, ’cause he says so and he’s a Jew.

I think the main point, which you make, is that this is not really about her. The article “speaks for itself”, and yet there were still plenty on the left who cannot see that it was explicitly antisemitic. But that’s to be expected, seeing as they’re all Hezbollah now.

You might have a tiny bit of credibility if you didn’t support campaigns by the likes of “Islamophobia watch” that attempt to demonise people and ruin their careers.

“We are going nowhere.”

Or perhaps “we are getting nowhere”.

It’s good to see you back, HP. I missed my daily dose of sanity. Those last few paragraphs, however, made me pause. This is a fight for the soul of what it means to be progressive rather than regressive, to be left rather than left behind.

However, the far left has so dominated the mind-space of the public that their shibboleths have become dogma. Can the ‘new left’ win over the apathetic public? The hard left deals in absolutes, simple slogans, and mindless, kneejerk protest. Such a simple life to have the ‘party’ (of God?) decide everything for you.

What can Democratya offer in response? Well thought out articles? You can’t put them on a placard. We need three word slogans, we need chants, we need to protest the protestors and make them rage. We need to use their own tactics against them.

But will we?

We are going nowhere.

“and their kind in Washington and around the world, ”

Thank you for drawing that to our attention, it had escaped my notice.

I applaud your resolve, you have done us all a great service. It must have been stressful, even though it never looked as if she had any reasonable case.

Lenin is now maintaining that Delich

doesn’t have to apologise for the content of the article. Whatever problems there are with it, it is not an explicitly antisemitic or fascist piece of material.

In a hole, and digging deeper.

This UCU list is great little device for HP though. Hours of fun! This is because most don’t have access to it, so we just have to trust HP’s interpretation of it.

HP won’t report the critics of Delich’s posting there, nor the fact that Delich is hardly a prominent activist in any campaign. Of course HP wasn’t trying to detrimentally affect Delich personally nor undermine her employment because that’s not what you do when you publish worldwide photographs, names, places of employment etc. No, no, no. HP said that Delich was a David Duke fan, and of course, that just had to be true, based on the evidence they possessed.

This non-story is then fed into HP’s own well worn theory about the left being taken over by antisemites or racists, well, the small bits of the British left that (shock, horror) criticise the Israeli govt on a regular basis, or call for boycott of Israel (not a position I support, but nor do I support the view that the position is automatically antisemitic).

Anyway, let the hoo haa continue :-)

“So, Fwanker, what do you think of all this. Going to parade to support Comrade Delich in her battle against the Zionazis?”

I am going to laugh at either outcome. I don’t give a shit about any of you, but frankly… logging on would be so boring without neocons to make fun of.

If “Michael Rosen” appears in black, it’s not me, it’s some incredibly witty, incisive person who is grappling in a hysterically funny way but anonymous way with the seriousness of the debate here.

What a load of bollocks!

You are right to say that you did not slander Delich. You libelled her. You defamed her. You stirred up a witch hunt against her. You provided room for contempt, hatred and ridicule to be heaped upon her. You lied to your readership. You betrayed your professed claims to be a high quality blog. You portrayed yourselves as the victims of a plot to censor you, when there was nothing other than an attempt to stop you ruining the life of a person who believes that Israel is wrong to occupy Palestine and murder Palestinians. You tried to convince people that you were going to be shut down by a big, nasty censor, but succeeded in winning the hearts and minds of the same pro-Zionist lobby that you appear to fall into.

Personally, I hope to see you disappear from the internet as a result of your lies, shoddy standards and repugnance. But I never get my own way…

Unless she can prove she didn’t know just who David Duke was, she should be subjected to disciplinary measures.

Well that’s clearly absurd. Free speech is not a one way street. Leaving Delich aside for a moment, I don’t agree with anybody being disciplined purely for their political views or for using particular websites (unless, possibly, the website is criminal, unlawful etc)

Some argue, for instance, that BNP supporters should be sacked from their employment etc. This is fundamentally wrong, even if we can all agree that the BNP’s views are awful (and I certainly agree that they are).

What matters is person’s behaviour at work. Behaviour and performance should be the relevant indicators; folk should not be politically vetted, their thoughts interpreted or poured over, as a basis for a tribunal to dismiss them.

Michael, I think we realised it. Unlike Jenna, we’re able to parse our sources. Now that you’re back, I wonder if you could comment on the article itself, which Jenna and her colleagues have claimed is perfectly reasonable. It was written by Joe Quinn, who believes in the Great Jewish Conspiracy, believes that the Jews procured and, indeed, enacted 9/11, and that the Jews fabricated Al Q’aida. He concluded in Jenna’s article thus: “What more can I say - either someone does something about these sick pyschopaths, or they, and their kind in Washington and around the world, will destroy us all”.

Now, the thrust of those who have supported Jenna and the UCU is that, whoopsy, bit of a boo boo that the article came from a Nazi’s website but, well, the article itself is nothing more than a restatement of current leftist “Truth”. Do you agree therewith?

If you want to try and sue me for defamation, I’m willing to give it a shot. Here we go:

1. HP’s coverage of the Jenna Delich affair has been based upon wilful misinterpretation of Ms Delich’s position.
2. HP’s journalistic standards in this affair have been null.
3. The writers of the various articles connected to this affair have been motivated by ideological opposition to the anti-zionist grouping within UCU.
4. The articles were published with the partial intent to smear UCU.
5. The articles are poorly researched and unbalanced.
6. The articles are an affront to the high-minded claims put forward by the blog’s founder.
7. The articles contain lies and half-truths about Jenna Delich.
8. The blog allows posts that are defamatory about both Jenna Delich and Joe Quinn.
9. The blog attempts to portray itself as a tireless crusader against censorship, when it is really fighting a battle for the right to defame individuals and organisations.
10. The articles are knowingly defamatory.

See you in court, suckers.

“You libelled her. You defamed her. You stirred up a witch hunt against her. “

So you’re saying she didn’t send out a link to David Duke’s website then? Really?

If that is the real Michael Rosen posting on the Lenin thread, he is being very reasonable there.

Diarmuid, you are a nasty piece of work. I have been reading Jenna’s poisonous comments from the many months. She is clearly an antisemite. I restate: if she had posted another article from David Duke’s site about blacks or muslims, you would have been leading the “witch hunt” yourself. But, because, as I said earlier, it’s only the Whining Yids, so to hell with them.

You make me sick.

The usual ignorant standard issue drivel from Diarmuid about ‘Israel occupying Palestine and murdering Paelstinians’. What a loser.

And from Flanker, of course, with the moronic label ‘neocons’.

“nor do I support the view that the position is automatically antisemitic”

Of course it is, unless you also call for a boycott of China, Syria, Iran and Sudan.
I don’t expect you to be able to grasp this.

Diarmuid, your posts contain outright lies about Israel. So just fuck off, jerk.

Welcome back!

Ironically, this has at least fired some reasonable action on the part of at least one senior decision maker in UCU– the guy who decided to pull Jenna Delich’s membership from their internal email list. Given UCU’s past action/inaction on that score, that’s a big move forward. Or maybe they got advice that doing nothing would add to their potential vulnerability to embarrassing legal action re their failure to protect their members from racist harrassment.

Jenna Delich is not an academic in the usually accepted meaning of the word, ie a teacher/researcher in higher education. Sheffield College where she works is an FE college which dabbles a bit in “foundation degrees” ie two year sub-degrees, but 95+% of whose courses are sub-degree vocational training and academic entry qualifications– what in the US would be called a community college. She is unlikely to be pursuing academic research. Not of course that those of her allies who are academics as usually defined are any less prone than she is of resorting to crass misrepresentation and vilification of Israel and zionism.

Personally, I hope to see you disappear from the internet as a result of your lies, shoddy standards and repugnance.

That’s not a real threat. He meant to write “pages of time” not “the internet”.

Haha

I’ve just been censored by lenins tomb

Post “Michael, I think we realised it.” - Careful, Post, the Ofsted inspector, Nearly O., will have your kishkes for garters re your use of ‘we’. It’s forbidden here, didn’t you know.

re my thoughts, they are, as Mark T says, at Lenin’s Tomb.

Rosen, that’s almost funny. But don’t give up your day job.

I haven’t got a day job.

y’argh, this morning i thought it would be a good day when i couldnt log into hp. i thought “woop! theyve ran outve money!” or summit like that. but it just seems youve been blocked by your server. ah well. im sure if theyd blocked you permanently youdve gone somewhere else to spout the bull. yeah ms detrich was wrong to link from david duke and yeah anti zionism can be an excuse for anti semitism. but then again anti zionism doesnt equal anti semitism. quite simple really. and sometimes, people make the mistake of thinking that someone who attacks israel is a good article or whatever but really they do it cos they hate the jews and that mistake has to be acknowledged. which she has done. but hey, israel is above criticism right?????? guys???? oh yeah, shit, it aint. and if as its been said that its worse than sud african apartheid, then thats just darn anti whitecolonialtypes to say it is eh? no shit it aint. if a state is comepletely funded and supported by america and britain then we retain the right to criticise it, especially if the foundation of the state rests on the murder and subjugation of palestinian people and still does to this day. oh shit, what we say summit you disagree with? well dammmmmnnnn we’re antisemites. no denying. or actually maybe we actually give a fuck what shit britain does around the world? and doesnt back the government to the hilt. god forbid
sorry about grammar, spelling,typing, im drunk and angry
both common feelings when reading the ole sauce

Can someone increase tintin’s medication, please? He is raving again. And spouting lies, which is worse.

Diarmuid, you are a nasty piece of work…You make me sick.
Diarmuid, your posts contain outright lies about Israel. So just fuck off, jerk.

Hmmm…

Brett
So you’re saying she didn’t send out a link to David Duke’s website then? Really?

No, Brett. That’s not what I am saying, is it? Patient sigh. I am saying that the writers on this website deliberately libelled/defamed both Delich and Quinn. Delich because they have portrayed her as a fan of David Duke and encouraged hatred, contempt and ridicule of her; Quinn because they appear to label him a Neo Nazi.

Mr Rosen, I read your excellent comments on Lenin’s Tomb, and I think I get your schtick now: you’re genuinely, hopelessly reasonable. I mean this as a compliment, but a guarded one. It’s nice to have avuncular people around who want to Make Things Better By Being Nice. However, sometimes being nice doesn’t cut it and a dash of vinegar needs to cut through the schmaltz.

Anyhoo, I think that Lenin’s article was very sad. Its rapacious desire to smash streams of discourse with which he disagrees made me shudder. Socialists who suddenly become fans of the bourgeois libel (and IP) laws when they get to sue them to smash their “enemies” reveal themselves as unethical gadflies.

I have been reading Jenna’s poisonous comments from the many months.

But of course we don’t have access to the list. We have to trust HP’s interpretation of events, such as she is a “David Duke fan” etc., and the general contention that she is an example of their ever growing theory about the left. We cannot read the reactions to Delich, so we instead we have to listen to Judy saying:

“Not of course that those of her allies who are academics as usually defined are any less prone than she is of resorting to crass misrepresentation and vilification of Israel and zionism.”

Without the list in black and white, being able to read every contribution, and/or some sort of reputable transparent survey, we are left with the sort of innuendo and speculation above about the views of academics. There is therefore a huge temptation to exaggerate and omit, and the grand game of Chinese Whispers continues.

Diarmuid:

Jenna Delich read an article posted by a neo-Nazi conspiracy theorist on a neo-Nazi website; the article *itself* was full of Neo-nazi canards and antisemitic invective. She found herself so profoundly in agreement with the article, and it chimed so well with her own ideology, that she felt moved to say that “the facts are speaking for themselves”. If she operates in a world where neo-Nazis bilge are “facts”, then explain to me how exactly one should label her ideology. Or are you here going to defend Quinn and his article? I look forward to that - in particular, the bits about the Jewish conspiracy, not to mention his previous form in blaming the Jews for every nasty little conspiracy since Adam.

One is reminded of the conclusion of Animal Farm here.

aye. well i dont know what you mean by getting worse, unless what you mean is worse within that particular post which is possible. and yeah spouting yeha, but lies? dunno really, i dont think i put any facts down did i? all i know is im an antizionist on the far left. god forbid. who comes at it cos of it because of israel and because of the uk govs ties with israel. now am i an antisemite because of it? no. plain and simple, there are no other reasons to demonise israel as it is, the israeli gov provides enough reasons.

Benjamin, many of her responses have been leaked. If you have not the perspicacity to research them, then take your insouciance elsewhere. Don’t rely on Harry’s Place, but find the leaks for yourself.

Jenna clearly isn’t a David Duke fan. She has made it clear. However, she *is* a Joe Quinn fan, and is a fan of neo-Nazi, conspiracy-theory trash as espoused in his work. Of that she has made plane twice now.

And, frankly, after your making operatics about your little spat with the Guardian, I don’t think you’re one to give mountain/molehill counsel here.

I always got the impression that it was more “I Write for Children, That’s Why I’m So Faux Cheery and Condescending” rather than “Make Things Better By Being Nice”.

Sorry: made plain, not plane. Syllogisms mean it’s bed time!

i should stop posting. i cant write any better when im sober. night y’all

Mr Rosen, I read your excellent comments on Lenin’s Tomb, and I think I get your schtick now: you’re genuinely, hopelessly reasonable.

You patronising so and so.

Michael Rosen is rarity in the blogosphere. A regular bloke, and a quality broadcaster, poet and educator. That’s a contribution, it’s not just about being nice.

What evidence do you have to offer to support your assertion that Joe Quinn is a neo nazi conspiracy theorist? Are all anti-Zionists neo Nazis?

I am opposed to the Israeli state murdering innocents in Palestine. I am opposed to the Israeli state breaking untold numbers of international laws and articles of the Geneva Convention. Am I a Neo Nazi? I am also opposed to the targeting of Israeli towns and the wholesale murder of Israeli citizens.

I imagine that Delich would best be labelled an “anti-Zionist”. But you are not really interested in labelling her accurately, are you? Any more than you are keen to do me justice with your assumptions and ill-formed opinions about me.

You expect everyone to agree with you in your support for the State of Israel’s murderous occupation. Those who don’t are automatically dismissed as anti-semites (by which I assume you mean anti-Jew rather than anti-semite).

I won’t defend Quinn, despite your eagerness for me to conform to your assumptions. If he has facts, let him defend them himself. I will defend Jenna Delich from accusations that she is a fan of David Duke. I will do it for the same reasons that I joined my union and for the same reasons that I oppose the murderous occupation of Palestine: when the weak are unjustly attacked by the strong, we all suffer if we do not resist. That is not “nasty” - that is honourable.

If you want to try and sue me for defamation, I’m willing to give it a shot.

Diarmuid, I think you’ll find the litigous cunts of this world reside elsewhere.

Am I a Neo Nazi?

I give in. Give me a clue. For example, how many times do you approvingly link to Neo-Nazi websites in, say, the average fortnight?

Benji’s pathetic attitude sums it up:

“We have to trust HP’s interpretation of events, “

No, you can go to Engage, ask them, some of them have access to the UCU activist list and can verify the creeping level of racism on that UCU email list, or search the web, do your own research, make your own mind up on events.

but trusting HP is the issue for the Benjis, Rosens, etc of the world

If HP said “water was wet” or “fish swim in the sea” the first instinct of the above would be to say “NO”, they’d rather bite off their own tongues than concede that HP has a valid point

so really there will be no pleasing them, short of HP vanishing and that’s not going to happen now.

hard luck, benji’s of the world. HP is here to stay.

now fuck off, benji and co. you have nothing of worth to contribute.

Ah, and Diarmuid has fallen into the typical error of misunderstanding the word “anti-semite,” which was, in fact, invented by an anti-semite in order to refer to Jew-hatred. Wilhelm Marr intended to oppose what he called “Semitism,” which he thought of as some kind of evil melange of Judaism, Jewish culture, and Jewish “racial” characteristics. His intention was not to refer to any other so-called Semitic races.

Benjamin, many of her responses have been leaked.

Leaks you see. People leak some things and don’t leak others, according to their agenda. I am just suggesting that to try to get an overall picture, both of the UCU and of Detrich, one has to read the whole list. We are left with HP’s interpretation, and the interpretation of others feeding off leaks. You may be all right over this matter, but this is a rather a dubious mode of operation. Its a game of insinuation and counter insinuation based on incomplete evidence.

The publication of her picture, name, place of work etc in this context questionable. Now, I hear you say, that publication is justified. Well, maybe. However, that’s a pretty dangerous game to play too. I wonder where it would lead if more blogs did that sort of thing?

Welcome Back, HP. Its good to see you. Even better that you have turned the tables on those that tried to censor you. Great how many different folks supported HP. Of course this has also brought a whole new set of trolls that need to be argued with or perhaps ignored.

Note: All these folks denouncing supposed Israeli atrocities such as murdering women, children etec. They seldom give any specifics. Probably believe, with unforunately some reason, that if they keep saying over and over Israeli war crimes, murder of innocent Palestinians, etec, it will sink into collective public consciousness as fact. Sort of an update to old Nazi Big Lie technique.

The publication of her picture, name, place of work etc in this context questionable. Now, I hear you say, that publication is justified. Well, maybe. However, that’s a pretty dangerous game to play too. I wonder where it would lead if more blogs did that sort of thing?

I don’t know why I’m bothering, but Delich posts using her own name and deosn’t seek anonymity. There is a difference between re-posting volunterred information already in the public domain and blowing someone’s preferred anonymity, whether you have the grey matter to discern this difference or not.

Nowadays, the usual subject of the Two Minute Hate is not just a particular Jew as in “1984″ with Emanuel Goldstein, but the Jewish State.

Modernity

Look, there may or may not be a “creeping level of racism” on the list. However, you are suggesting that I go to Engage and talk to folk there who have access to the list who will then tell me that this is true and give me some examples. I don’t think that is a particularly credible way of going about things, for all the reasons I have said. What is needed is for me to have full access to the list, to read every contribution, and review the whole thing. I can’t do that, because its private - and therein lies the problem. The full evidence is not accessible. We are left with leaks, interpretations, extrapolations and insinuations. Its copy and paste heaven!

Diarmuid:

Joe Quinn believes Israel was behind 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the July 7th bombings, a planned suicide attack on the 2006 world cup and the assassinations of Rafiq Hariri and Alexander Litvinyenko. He also believes Israel is secretly arranging suicide bombings of Israelis in Israel.

Joe Quinn believes that there is no such thing as anti-Semitism. Literally. It is a Zionist construct:

“the idea that anyone would hate a person or group simply because “they are who they are” is a ridiculous contention”

most modern-day Jews are originally of Khazarian stock … The term anti-Semitism therefore has been hijacked by Zionist leaders and forcibly re-defined as meaning a “hatred of Jews” when it cannot possibly be interpreted in such a way by any logical reasoning.

He calls neo-nazi Israel Shamir a “respectable author”. He writes that

“Signs of the Times is determined to expose the Truth about Zionism, its infestation of America and its plan to kick-start a third world war from which few will survive? ”

Sign of the Times is the totally non-racist website that Jenna claims to be a reader of. It is the ’serious’ wing of a pseudoscientific religion thing called the Cassiopaeans, that has something to do with channelling the spirits of aliens using Quantum. It is run by a husband and wife team. Joe Quinn has co-authored a book with one of them - on how Mossad did 9/11.

Bottom line: I don’t think anyone needs to be scared about Joe Quinn suing for being called a racist.

Yeah, but unseen, where’s the evidence, man?