Harry's Place

We’re thinking of publishing all of the correspondence on the UCU activists list, every day, in full, to show how dominated the list is by the issue of pushing for the illegal boycott.

Uh huh. HP also said this:

As Harry’s Place readers know, the email list traffic is dominated by political extremists and almost entirely given over to their obsessive and nasty campaign to boycott Israeli academics.

The extremists are countered by a small number of Jews and anti-racists, many of them supporters of Engage. They are routinely defamed as racists, imperialists, Apartheid supporters, liars and conspirators. Quite a few of the Jews and anti-racists have been chucked off the list by the UCU administrators, arbitrarily, and usually for making public their complaints about the racism on the list.

If you publish it all, we shall see if that characterisation holds up.

I’ve only read the first 3 emails, but I agree with most of what’s said, specifically:

“But what about those who, in their case, knowingly and intentionally placed photos of Jenna and nasty, exaggerated claims about her”

“Some action should be taken about this as to post a photograph on Harry’s list is a very aggressive tactic and whatever we feel about the issue we should feel able to express our views as activists without fear of actions being taken that put our safety at risk.”

And “her name is all over the place I understand and she does not deserve this kind of treatment … What is said on this list should stay on the list”.

I won’t read on because I’m not a member of that private discussion group so it feels a bit like holding a glass up to someone’s window hoping to catch them saying something they shouldn’t.

Wardy, that is true, to an extent.

However this list is open to 160,000 people. If I wanted to say something privately, I wouldn’t say it where 160,000 people could read it.

And if you read on a bit

Leaving aside the fact that the link was actually to a webpage whereupon was published an article that was not at all racist,

You will find that people are still maintaining that the article is fine.

Apparently then, HP is prepared to not only publish the personal details, photograph and work details of someone they disagree with, but publish all the correspondence in the list.

From what I have read, its not going to uncover the nest of antisemites, racists and extremists that HP says the list is full of. So that task is pretty pointless. Plus, apparently, HP has played a part in making one woman’s life a misery. Is this called progress?

I am amazed with the insistance that the article linked to was not itself racist when it is entirely predicated on the so-called ‘ZOG‘ conspiracy theory peddled by the racist far-right.

Wardy

These are the political activists in a major public sector union, planning an illegal boycott of Jews, which they have nearly implemented. They have bullied Jews off this list, and out of the Union. They have expelled other members on trumped up charges.

Delich is one of these political activists. Complaints have been made against her privately through the Union’s domestic proceedings. They’ve been dismissed out of hand.

Even when she posts, approvingly, material which claims that ‘Israelis’ and ‘their ilk’ control the Press, and Washington, NONE of these so called UCU anti racists have a problem with it.

This is why we need to do this

If UCU took any of this seriously, if the boycotters recognised the problem of racism in UCU, we wouldn’t have published any of this. We wouldn’t have had to do it.

Likewise -

She posted a link to a perfectly reasonable article

She posted a link to a perfectly reasonable article

Bloody hell Sue, have you actually read the piece?

Surely, if these people were serious, they’d campaign to get the Race Realtions Act changed,rather than campaigning for their union to break it?

David T

Even if we accept everything you say is true, do you really think your campaign – publishing the contents of a private email list (exposing yet more individuals who may then be targeted) and publishing the picture, personal details, and work details of Delich – will be “successful” (however you measure success)? It’s a very dubious game to play dicking around with people’s privacy.

I advocated publishing the list if all folks agreed – essentially theoretical- to try to verify HP’s bold assertions. From correspondence I have read, it goes very little way to proving HP’s statements on the matter anyway.

Remember – these people are describing this article as

‘perfectly reasonable’

and

‘not at racist’

days after this whole thing has kicked off.

Are they mad?

I was going to publish a short post pointing out the difference between Sue B and J Delich in this regard, Sue B did remove the link from here website, but now having read that what can one say?

Benjamin,

What is your interest in this list?

If you have never heard of David Duke and his alliance of anti-semitic anti-Zionists and KKK white supremacists,, I wonder how qualified you are to self-confidently lecture others in the nature of contemporary anti-semitism.

i bet sue has indeed read the piece.
this is the sort of antisemitism that is now acceptable in some circles of the left. you see, it’s not “anti-jewish”, it’s “anti-the-israel-lobby”

This is a public sector union. They participants on this list are activists organising a campaign which will have public consequences.

This isn’t just mates having a chin wag.

Interesting to note from the above that Jenna Delich apparently hails from eastern Europe and it’s possible that she hasn’t been in the country all that long. If that’s the case then it becomes a little less improbable that she didn’t know about David Duke.

A point which seems to be being missed by the UCU activists is that the reason the name of Jenna Delich is now spread far and wide across the internet (now including references by Iain Dale and Guido) is not because Harry’s Place published her name and picture (which would have been a five minute wonder) but because she or someone supporting her tried to shut Harry’s Place down, igniting a firestorm of outrage in the process.

Oh yes, how easy it must be to slip up and link to neo-Nazi web sites when looking for information about those evil Jews, I mean Zionists of course. Yes, when I just said Jews, I did not mean Jews of course, only Zionists. It is a simple error and, anyway, if it were not for Jews, I mean Zionists, like Paul Wolfowitz who control the world, I mean American foreign policy, the world would be a much better place.

Moreover, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not an antisemitic book, it is an anti-Zionist book and that is why the author was careful to refer to “the Elders of Zion” as opposed to “Jewish Elders.”

Interesting to note from the above that Jenna Delich apparently hails from eastern Europe and it’s possible that she hasn’t been in the country all that long.

She has been here at least 7 years, taking part in a BBC interview in 2001.

Hi Guys
Glad to see you are back.
Keep up the good work.
I can’t believe people think that article is ‘fine’. Yikes.

Best Wishes

Neil W

Linda states,

If you have never heard of David Duke and his alliance of anti-semitic anti-Zionists and KKK white supremacists,, I wonder how qualified you are to self-confidently lecture others in the nature of contemporary anti-semitism.

A basic but important point.

Now consider this contribution on SocialistUnity.com that commences:

I’ve been involved in anti-nazi work for several years, organised I don’t know how many gigs, done meetings, built for demos etc. I had no idea who David Dukes was until today because I’ve had no cause to read anything about him.

The Israel lobby. If you denied the existence of the car lobby, or the oil lobby, or Saudi Arabian lobby, the Irish lobby, the Muslim lobby, or the Russian lobby, or even, say, the cycling lobby (or refused to utter those words), you would get funny stares. Don’t you know how politics work (especially in Washington)? It’s about moneyed lobbyists, you naive prick. But then if you even mention the existence of the Israel lobby (which, incidentally, is both legitimate and open) you get accused of antisemitism! Funny old world, hey?

“It’s a very dubious game to play dicking around with people’s privacy.”

If this list was just a chinwag, a few friends having a chat, you’d have have a point. But it’s not. It’s a list devoted to changing the policy of a union.

If you found that the mailing list for a particular union or public body was dominated by right-wingers urging boycotts against Islamic countries, and some of those right-wingers were sending emails linking to conspiracy-theory articles on the BNP site, would you be using the same “privacy” reasons to protect their identities and emails from public discussion?

Would you?

Honestly, now?

P.

The list should be publicly archived, like any other respectable discussion list. What have they got to hide? (Apart from the right wing extremist views, obviously).

“I’ve been involved in anti-nazi work for several years… I had no idea who David Dukes was”

Because it’s easier to do anti-Nazi work without knowing who the Nazis are?

She had a Yorkshire accent in 2001 for gods sake.

Are we heading here toward the orientalist excuse for Arab anti semitism used by a part of the left, that, the poor dears can’t be expected to understand the nuances of European anti semitism that they’ve been infected with since 1948?

Just a wee point, and semi-professional related advice – you’re leaving yourselves open to a claim for copyright breech by simply reposting the entire list. Simply forwarding the list would not constitute fair use unlike quoting individual emails or sections of significance. Further, they could make use of the individual copyrights of each author to sue multiple times.

Parts of the far right have entered into an opportunistic alliance with anti-Zionists. I somehow doubt that this is linked to progressive anti-imperialism as any of us would understand it, but rather as a cover to advance its anti-Semitic agenda. This recent development is an important factor in the morphing of anti-semitism to suit prevailing conditions. If you don’t know anything about it, you can’t lecture others about anti-semitism, and of course it leaves you open to falling into anti-Semitic errors yourself, because you just don’t know the terrain.

I do not think that anti-Zionism is in and of itself an anti-Semitic position. But if you are an anti-Zionist and want to avoid the taint of anti-semitism (because you are an anti-racist) it’s incumbent on you to understand anti-semitism as it manifests itself today, which is currently partly under cover of anti-Zionism. This does not contaminate anti-Zionism, but it requires anti-Zionism tob e vigilante. It seems some people on the UCU list, and some self-proclaimed ant–racists, have not grasped this very basic point.

Do UCU’ers ever question their own beliefs when they discover the folks who share their viewpoint?

This is a public sector union. They participants on this list are activists organising a campaign which will have public consequences.

Dear me, David, whatever you got, you got it bad. Presumably then we should have publish all the emails of all unions involved in the public sector, which have “public consequences”, and publish the photographs and personal details of those union members who post articles that you do not agree with.

Blimey, this is really witchhunt central. Apparently though, this is in retaliation for the UCU’s own witchhunt of Jews

“They have bullied Jews off this list, and out of the Union. They have expelled other members on trumped up charges.”

So, its an eye for an eye. Progress?

“I do not think that anti-Zionism is in and of itself an anti-Semitic position”

Anti-Zionism is the belief that Jews have no right of self-determination, that the only country in the world with a Jewish majority has no right to exist, that Jews should pay for the crimes of others.

What’s not anti-Semitic about that? Just because one may be anti-Zionist “because of those poor Palestinians” (and hadn’t considered the above) doesn’t make you not anti-Semitic, it just makes you stupid to boot.

could you imagine “lenin” (who is now moderating comments on his ‘freedom of speech’ post, if you can believe the irony) making a post in defense of some academic who “mistakenly” posted a link to an article on the bnp site? it doesn’t even matter what the aricle said, but you can be sure that if it had in any way even a whiff of anti-muslim sentiment (he claims that a “sophisticated reader” might see some things that “raise alarms” in the article delich posted. so it’s not like he missed the antisemitism there) he’d be over the poster like flies on shit.
but since this is only antisemitism, and we know “lenin” has high tolerance of antisemitism when it comes from anti-zionists, it’s ok.

If you found that the mailing list for a particular union or public body was dominated by right-wingers urging boycotts against Islamic countries, and some of those right-wingers were sending emails linking to conspiracy-theory articles on the BNP site, would you be using the same “privacy” reasons to protect their identities and emails from public discussion?

Ah yes, the hoary old comparison is dragged out again. All very dramatic, but the prosaic reality of even the correspondence published does not bear comparison. I dread to think what tedium resides in the stuff that has not been published.

Just to say I would prefer it if you did *not* reproduce e-mail addresses. Some are, in fact, personal and not work related. I don’t have such a problem with names, as the individuals cheerfully associate themselves with their views, but let others track down contact details.

What? The Israelis run the press? Did they put Chanel on the front of the daily spurt today? Well I never.

I love Noel Douglas’ suggestion of going to live in Gaza to be on the receiving end of some real violence. You don’t have to go that far to put yourself in harm’s way, just live in Sderot and that should suffice.

(Btw, just out of curiosity, what is the Jewish population of Gaza?)

Anti-Zionism can be a whole variety of things, that included. But the Charedi of Stamford Hill would have their own thoughts on the matter.

Just to say I would prefer it if you did *not* reproduce e-mail addresses

Come on Comrade Alec, all’s fair in love and war! Won’t it further the cause to have their inboxes bulging with abuse? The ends justify the means and all that.

the hoary old comparison is dragged out again. All very dramatic, but the prosaic reality of even the correspondence published does not bear comparison

Why?

A boycott is being urged against a country.

Some of those urging the boycott are linking to conspiracy-theory articles, hosted on an unsavoury site.

Explain why the comparison does not stand up.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but hailing from FYR (almost certainly a Croatian), is she not South Slavic as opposed to East European?

This is all well and good, but nobody has explained yet why she has her hair like that.

Sheffield is a very backward place and it may just be one of the few hairstyles available.

Where is the evidence that delich is Croatian by the way? She went to school in Bosnia and appears to indicate that the victims of Srebenica are “my people”. “Delich” as a surname is undoubtedly derived from a German root which might indicate Austro-Hungarian origins but it is also a common surname in Serbia (as any American who heard Republican senator and Milosevic apologist Helen Delich Bentley will know.)

“Ah yes, the hoary old comparison is dragged out again.”

“Hoary” means “old”. So you’re essentially saying – I’m using an old comparison.

And?

Try dealing with the point. I mean, if you’re point is that we should excuse behaviour on the left wing that we would not tolerate on the right wing, then at least be honest.

P.

I tend to agree with Alec about the email addresses.
Nutjobs are attracted by such easy clicking.(I had my email put up by one of Seymours flunkies with a strange taste in porn).
Theres no point it doesn’t advance the argument.

I mean, if you’re point is that we should excuse behaviour on the left wing that we would not tolerate on the right wing, then at least be honest.

He doesn’t think that, but just doesn’t want to admit it.

Hence we get a volley of ‘blimeys’ ‘uh huhs’ ‘ah yeses’.

“I tend to agree with Alec about the email addresses.

I also agree. I have made the necessary edits.

He doesn’t think that, but just doesn’t want to admit it.

Might I suggest that when Benji just wants to get attention but doesn’t actually want to deal with arguments put to him, he simply post the acronym “SIAT” (Storm In A Teacup), to save time on everyone’s part?

P.

I would suggest that coming from Eastern Europe would make you more sensitive to racism, especially anti-Jewish racism under the guise of anti-Zionism. I know Delich hasn’t heard of Duke but surely she’s heard about Gomulka?

*My relatives lived through it, especially the university ban of Polish Jews which bears similarities to the boycott attempt.

Graham, I was wondering about that. However, I’d taken her comments that people like Duke were “slaughtering my people” to have been a reference to WWII. Pages such as this leave open the possibility it’s Croatian.

Urging a boycott of country is not necessarily racist. The boycott of Israel – even assuming it could be implemented by those proposing it – is likely to have had close to zero effect. Any other boycott is a complete non-starter. Its a complete non-argument. As for the conspiracy website, er, we have one instance of one researcher in a local Sheffield college linking to the DD website, probably in error (however naive.) Then we have lots of shouting, innuendo and broad assertions. Don’t worry chaps, the sun will rise tomorrow.

I also agree. I have made the necessary edits.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Graham, I was wondering about that. However, I’d taken her comments that people like Duke were “slaughtering my people” to have been a reference to WWII. Pages such as this leave open the possibility it’s Croatian

Fuck off, Benji.

Graham, I was wondering about that. However, I’d taken her comments that people like Duke were “slaughtering my people” to have been a reference to WWII. Pages such as this leave open the possibility it’s Croatian.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/serbia/messages/465.html

s for the conspiracy website, er, we have one instance of one researcher in a local Sheffield college linking to the DD website, probably in error (however naive.) Then we have lots of shouting, innuendo and broad assertions

No, we have people maintaining that an explicitly anti-semitic article is ‘perfectly reasonable’ and ‘not at all racist’, days after this whole shit-storm has kicked off because of the racism of the article.

Now fuck off.

So Lenin is moderating comments but letting things like this through.

She isn’t a university lecturer, she’s a lecturer in a higher/further education college. As such she’s probably no more sophisticated than the average teacher. Given that German is her first language, I think there are good grounds for giving her the benefit of the doubt on the basis of the facts to date.
Cian | 28 Aug, 12:05 | #

hilarious buffoon

After all, its only because she linked to the David Duke website that you chaps are getting your knickers in twist. She could have quite easily linked to the same article but through another website and you guys may not have noticed.

This all has an absurd Monty Python air to it. This is truly a scandal from a non-scandal. Shock, horror, an academic somewhere links to website you don’t like. Shock, horror she may have views you don’t like. Big deal!

Can a nice Moderator free one of my comments which is caught in the queue?

Engage covers many of these issues:

Why break UCU confidences now? David Hirsh

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2071

This is truly a scandal from a non-scandal. Shock, horror, an academic somewhere links to website you don’t like. Shock, horror she may have views you don’t like. Big deal!

Aren’t you the person who is constantly getting their knickers in a twist about the lack of time HP dedicates to the BNP?

So it’s obvious you do care about some racism.

Except when it’s anti-Jewish racism.

It’s all ‘Big Deal’ and ‘non-scandal’.

Truly you are a prize prick.

“She had a Yorkshire accent in 2001 for gods sake.”

That’s my theory blown out of the water then. I was thinking David Duke might not be such a well-known name in a non-English speaking country, that’s all.

Anyway, why is HP’s business to police what goes on in union mailing lists? It’s absurd. For a start HP and Engage don’t have the resources to do it, quite apart from all the ethical issues involved. What good will come out of this? If you want to challenge the views, have an open debate, don’t hound people using clandestine moles and dubious gotcha internet stunts. I can’t see any good coming out of this – you just piss people off.

Benji, you’ve established that you’re a selective anti-racist.

You can fuck off now.

So:-

Dr. Rebecca Gumbrell-McCormick
catherine.tanner
Keith Hammond
Lesley Kane
Diarmuid Fogarty
Noel Douglas
Sue Blackwell

Are all people on the UCU list who have opinions. I have gleaned this because you published their names. Now, I support HP a lot over its stand on Antisemitism but I just wonder if puiblisihing the names was fair. I am going to assume you know the laws of libel and defamation better than me.

I hope you know what you are doing! I know how shocked and upset I would be if my name were revealed on a website when I thought I was in private conversation.

I realise you don’t libel someone by simply publishing an e-mail from them. As long as the e-mail’s aren’t implicitly “Private and Confidential” and the same is specified and guaranteed by participating then I guess you are just about on the right side.

Benjamin
Well at least one good thing will come out of it – Delich wont link to David Duke again.

Of course I am concerned about anti-Jewish racism.

Two things though:

These stunts won’t work anyway. You are winning no arguments, you are just getting people pissed off about your tactics and worried about privacy.

I am dubious about HP’s claims about the extent of antisemitism, racism and extremism in the list. To verify all that I need to read the whole list (unlikely).

Shock, horror, an academic somewhere links to website you don’t like.

So, liking or not liking David Duke is just a matter of personal preference.

P.

I am a member of UCU, and opposed to the boycott. I want the Jew-hatred of its supporters to be exposed for all the world to see. This is a cancer at the heart of my union, and I am seriously considering whether I can continue to associate myself with an organisation that is bordering on the racist. Keep up the good work, HP.

Well at least one good thing will come out of it – Delich wont link to David Duke again.

The HP way is the New Labour way of doing it – stick a security camera somewhere so they behave. We are watching you!

The only stunt pulled here was that pulled by those who approached Harry’s Place DNS provider, which backfired upon those who carried it out (as anybody with any sense would have realised it would).

I may not agree with Benjamin, but he is always polite on this list despite the level of abuse he receives. I do not see why people cannot afford him the same level of courtesy that he shows other contributors to this forum.

I would ask that those that disagree with him, either ignore him or engage in debate with him without resorting to the use of such foul and abusive language as Mark T has shown above.

So, liking or not liking David Duke is just a matter of personal preference.

It’s viewpoint, but a reprehensible one. The best way to counter these views is not to resort to these potentially dangerous and abusive stunts, and the big brother approach.

Oh God, I would collect money to have Benjamin put out of our misery. Though even having myself killed would be preferable to reading his whinging anymore.

Benjamin
A bit of a negative interpretation – I meant now she knows who David Duke is and wont link to his site again – that might not have happened if it hadn’t have been brought into the open, true?

Sorry Mikey.

Apologies (and to Benji).

‘The member concerned is of Eastern European origin, and American white supremacist groups are just not on her political radar. The posting of the link was a mistake.’

It is interesting how Mark Waddup implies that it is impossible or so unlikely as doesn’t matter for someone of East European Christian origin under Soviet rule to be prejudiced about Jews. Where does he think half Israeli Jews originate from, and why?

Ignorant twit.

The only stunt pulled here was that pulled by those who approached Harry’s Place DNS provider

As I said, I don’t agree with the legal action. But it does not follow I agree with HPs approach either.

Zkharya
Exactly – I made the point earlier about Gomulka and Poland in 68…

Benjamin.
If this was the Police Federation activists list and one of its members was linking to David Duke,do you think they should be publicised or not?

‘Given that German is her first language, ‘

Only one response to that:

” What about ‘Die Bart, Die’”?

“Ah, that is German for ‘Dee Bart, Dee’”

“How could a man who speaks German be a bad man?”

I meant now she knows who David Duke is and wont link to his site again – that might not have happened if it hadn’t have been brought into the open, true?

Oh, fair enough. But this hoo haa is not necessary. And you know, you might get further with Delich if you just keep things calm and avoid all the shouty stuff and hounding her. I think HP knew what it was doing when it publishes contact details, photos etc.

’sorry Oniad, I didn’t spot yours.

Benjamin, your point about the existence of an “Israel lobby” totally misses the point. The term “lobby” is pejorative. Whenever people refer to the X lobby or the Y lobby it is designed to convey the sense of narrow minority of obsessives seeking to foist their views on others. I rather doubt that the members of the UCU would regard themselves as part of an “anti-zionist lobby” or a “Palestine lobby”. They would describe themselves as “activists” or “campaigners” or some other term implying that they represent a legitimate cause. The term “Israel lobby” implicitly suggests a group wielding disproportionate and illegitimate influence, which is why anti-Semites love the term so much.

Hmm. It’s wrong to expose racists/fascists because it’s unpleasant for them. I DO understand your point of view Benji, but I don’t respect it.

And these dishonest, “we’re anti-racists who hate Jews” types deserve no more respect than the older, more self aware bigots were, IMO.

If this was the Police Federation activists list and one of its members was linking to David Duke,do you think they should be publicised or not?

Its not really an accurate comparison; it would certainly not be necessary to publish so many responses nor quickly publish the photo and contact details of the copper.

There is a little bit of irony though – Hamas UK threatened to sue HP and didn’t get the website down, but someone sympathetic to Delich managed it. Got to laugh really…

But you think that it would be legitimiate to publicise the details of the link to Duke and who posted it?

Its not really an accurate comparison; it would certainly not be necessary to publish so many responses nor quickly publish the photo and contact details of the copper.

A) the contact details of Delich have not been published

B) It has only been necessary to publish responses to Delich in this instance because people (like you) seem to be dubious about the extent of the problem.

It’s wrong to expose racists/fascists because it’s unpleasant for them.

No, its right to expose racists/fascists. As I said there is nothing wrong with Harry talking about this, but its about the way its done.

I can’t see any good coming out of this – you just piss people off.

The irony of Benjamin complaining that someone else might piss people off is just too much.

You really are a complete waste of space, aren’t you? What exactly is the point of your existence other than hanging around Harry’s Place posting an infinite number of variations on a single post? Is that what you’re going to point to when people ask what you’ve achieved with your life?

I don’t think someone educated in Tuzla has German as a first language. And anyway, as others have said, ignorance is not an excuse. Delich agreed with the racist and to a large degree wacko ideas in the Quinn article. And many others we’ve seen quoted from the UCU list seem to find virulent antisemitic rhetoric to agree perfectly with their own sentiments. That’s the problem.

I worry that publishing the UCU list will backfire on you, though. The matter of the antisemitism and attempt to purge British academia of Israelis and Jews will get pushed to the background in the eyes of the public by a more overarching public concern about privacy. Much as I’d like to see the appalling views of the leaders of what in a better world would be my own union exposed in full, I think this would be a public relations disaster for HP.

Zkharya – (if I remember the episode correctly) isn’t it German for ‘The Bart, The?’

Agree with you though that someone who speaks German can’t possibly be bad! ; )

Steady on Michael, there is no need for that, son.

The term “lobby” is pejorative

Maybe, but its not necessarily racist or antisemitic is it? I mean if I talk about the Muslim lobby, or the Irish lobby, I am being that beastly? There are various lobbies – even if it is pejorative.

Having read this correspondence, I feel like I’ve just seen a rock lifted, exposing all the belly-crawling invertebrates that live underneath it.

I’m sick of these racist bastards undermining the reputation of British academia. It’s about time someone revealed these people for what they truly are, and if it takes HP to do it, I’ll raise a glass to David T et al tonight.

No pasaran.

The lesson HAMAS should draw from this is that they need more links with academics to show them the finer points of silencing critical websites.

exposing all the belly-crawling invertebrates that live underneath it.

There is a irony in you using such language to describe human beings. Play with a straight bat.

Diarmuid.

well, I think you’re an Irish cultural Catholic fascist bastard.

And I get heartily sick of Irish like you who think, because they’re Irish, which is so the ethnic flavour of the month, that they are immune to being racist, let alone anti-semitic cunts.

You can call me if you like. But I’m Irish, of Catholic extraction.

You can call me racist if you like. But I’m Irish, of Catholic extraction, that should be.

Blimey, don’t bring Irish Catholics into it…

Ne pasa-fucking-ran indeed, Sackcloth. Still can’t see why my last attempt is not being accepted, so try again.

Graham, I was wondering the same about Delich’s nationality. However, I’d taken her self-pitying whine that people like Duke had been “slaughtering her people” to have been decades whence, and therefore about WWII. A quick browse of family history sites leave open doubt about her surname being Croatian.

I don’t think someone educated in Tuzla has German as a first language.

Nor do I.

on Duke’s international fame: he’s been spending tons of time in the Ukraine over the past several years. I would think an Eastern European anti-fascist activist would be more familiar with him not less.

on publishing names: it seems to me the Union’s stated reason for ensuring privacy – to protect employees speaking out against their employers – isn’t relevant here (except for those who think everyone is employed by the international Jewish conspiracy). That said, I can’t see any useful purpose for publishing names besides those of prominent boycotters. It’s easy enough to redact them.

Can’t believe someone screwed up the Simpson’s German speaking gag:

“Its German for ‘The Bart, The’”

On the point at issue, even if Delich has never heard of Duke, she definitely read the article. Not to be able to recognise it as racist is not a credible position, no matter who the author.

I see some argument about the DAvid Duke site article itself (confess I’ve only read a few paragraphs). It is argued that it is not of itself antemitic. Lets pass over the analogous cases already and rightly raised amd cut to the chase. Does anyone believe the sincerity of the pro Palestinian comments in it? After all, it used to be an article of faith I recall, on the left that in this sort of discussion the far right was concerned solely to split the (in this case international) “working class”. We in the UK see something of the sort in the BNP’s current attempts to woo the Sikh population

So the question rased here is if the pro Palestinian sentiments are not genuine why would anyone believe the anti Israeli ones are either? And if an anti Israeli comment is not sincere isn’t the overwhelming liklihood that it is inspried by antisemitism?

Today’s Jewish Chronicle reports the following comment from Ms Delich:

“If you or anyone else mention my name or anything to do with me anywhwere in the media or a public place, I will sue”

Is Michael Rosen still around?

Who’s Lucy Lips BTW? Sounds very enticing.

I’d taken her self-pitying whine that people like Duke had been “slaughtering her people” to have been decades whence, and therefore about WWII.

No she mentioned “her people” on a Srebencica memorial site which I have been unable to locate again since.

“Delitzsch” is in Saxony but Delitch’s are found all over Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia Bosnia and Croatia.

First time I have ever seen the case argued that because someone is from Eastern Europe then she should be forgiven anti-semitism due to ignorance.

We are talking about a part of Europe where anti-semitism and holocaust denial is a daily part of the political discourse.

First time I have ever seen the case argued that because someone is from Eastern Europe then she should be forgiven anti-semitism due to ignorance.

Yeah, it’s not like Eastern Europe has ever had a problem with anti-semitism, is it?

Is it?

Matt Waddup wasn’t saying she should be forgiven anti-semitism due to ignorance; he was saying that being from Eastern Europe she hadn’t heard of David Duke. Incidentally Waddup was a no. 3 hit for Cameo back in 1986.

In centre-left circles the most ubiquitous troll is Benjamin. He works in Hong Kong, I think. God knows what as, since he has the mentality of a moderately clever, but destructive, nine-year old. David Aaronovitch.

Sue him Benji!

No she mentioned “her people” on a Srebencica memorial site which I have been unable to locate again since.

Fair enough, I have no reason to doubt you. Thinking about it, I think I saw someone suggest she was Croatian, and made assumptions.

I think we can both agree that anyone whose “people were slaughtered” a Srebrenica is unlikely to have German as their first language. Or be from Eastern Europe.

People, the problem isn’t (only) the link to David Duke’s website; it’s bloody article itself. It reeks of antisemitism. Perhaps the Delich woman can be excused for her Internet ignorance, but the approving comments (re the article) from her and other UCU members are eye-opening… and immensely depressing. They have so debased “the Left” that I now hesitate to use the identification myself.

I do think this “witch-hunting” aspect of this and other recent posts, and, in particular the way this thread has developed, is somewhat despicable, in fact. (Although, given that McCarthyite tendencies and hysterical fanaticism have been very much evident round here previously on several occasions this is unfortunately not in the least bit surprising)

There are plenty of sound arguments to deploy against the sort of boycott some elements in the UCU seek. (Above all, that the idea of excluding people from academic discourse because of their citizenship is an absurd affront to the very methods of academic research).

Their (ill-informed and foolish) arguments should be defeated with stronger counterarguments, not recourse to the law on the one hand nor personal abuse on the other.

We are talking about a part of Europe where anti-semitism and holocaust denial is a daily part of the political discourse.

I don’t know whether you mean the Balkans or Eastern Europe in general, but this is a joke, right?

Okay, we’ve decided that Ven has gone over to the stupid side, but Wardy? Even if it could be argued that she hadn’t heard of Duke, she was still unable to spot the antisemitic nature of the article!!! Or didn’t care.

Of course Waddup is excusing her for that.

So I see that Benjamin has crossed from being a bystander to being a denier.
thirty posts or more of him basically saying that David Duke’s views are just views you don’t like.
And this worm is the one that complains all the time about HP not fighting the far-right?
Oh, Benjamin Mackie, you will be known as an apologist for antisemites even after your death.

I do think this “witch-hunting” aspect of this and other recent posts, and, in particular the way this thread has developed, is somewhat despicable, in fact.

I had a feeling you would.

Their (ill-informed and foolish) arguments should be defeated with stronger counterarguments, not recourse to the law on the one hand nor personal abuse on the other.

The first HP cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be accused of. The second, beyond a pointed pejorative which anyone who provides recommendations for articles on Duke’s site frankly deserves, didn’t take place either.

In fact, it’s Delich’s supporters who have.

please, please, this issue goes far beyond Ms. Delich, let’s forget her.

let’s concentrate on the wider issues here.

the issue is racism and UCU,.

why is a “certain” form of racism somehow seen as more acceptable?

why ?

If David Aaronovitch says it, it must be true ;-)
Try not to recycle insults from Murdoch’s men, think of your own!

Old David is actually not a bad lifestyle/travel journalist, but when it comes to politics he’s so far up New Labour’s arse, its really not worth it. He fronted up a really embarrassingly sycophantic TV tribute to Blair a while back: the Blair Years.

A question:

HP publicly fingered Delich as a “David Duke fan”.

Do you stand by that characterization?

I’d like to agree with Modernity’s usual common sense. An academic who is promoting a boycott of Israeli colleagues posts a link to an anti-semitic article on a far right website. Several other activists also promoting the boycott write in to say that they can’t see anything wrong with the article.

There are many reasons for opposing the boycott, one of them is that the self-proclaimed anti-racists pushing for it have not a clue about anti-semitism and have allowed it to invade their union.

I’m not an academic and of course not a member of the UCU for that reason, but it’s of public concern when a public sector union, particularly whose members are supposed to be teaching students, is contaminated by racism.

And that is a bigger issue than either privacy or censorship of the blogs.

Today’s Jewish Chronicle reports the following comment from Ms Delich:

“If you or anyone else mention my name or anything to do with me anywhwere in the media or a public place, I will sue”

*slaps forehead*

One of Ms. Delich’s friends – other than Mike Cushman, whose advice so far has been disastrous – should take her aside and calmly explain the best course of action at this point would be to issue a press release stating what happened and simply adding a forthright apology.

The taking down of HP has only increased spread of the incident tenfold, even among blogs who would normally be on her side. And pointless threats to issue libel proceedings against those reporting _a fact_ are only going to increase spread of the news further while providing no hope of any comeback.

P.

Paul, d’you think she’s Irish with that level of stupidity?

Paul, d’you think she’s Irish with that level of stupidity?

Hang on ’til I ask my pig.

P.

now someone should call her and say they’re from the ‘palestine chronicle’ and see if she’s willing to give an interview or not.

The taking down of HP has only increased spread of the incident tenfold, even among blogs who would normally be on her side. And pointless threats to issue libel proceedings against those reporting _a fact_ are only going to increase spread of the news further while providing no hope of any comeback.

In other words, the Streisand effect.

(hat tip: PooterGeek)

“Paul, d’you think she’s Irish with that level of stupidity?”
…in a purely nonracial sense, of course.

I find that comment antisemitic, Roger.

I have one thing to say about JD’s having come from BiH. Having read her posts at the JDArchives, I found out that she:

1) was unable to construct a coherent argument by herself;
2) repeated others’ arguments wholesale without the slightest indication of having invested any original thought;
3) absorbed what she saw on TV and what she read on anything from the activists’ list to that site and viewed it as unquestionable fact;
4) was unable to counter the points of opponents other than in the vaguest and laziest manner: SUCH AS? Who, what, where, when?
5) had poor toleration of democratic debate.
(i) On the boycott and the activists’ list: I think that the ballot has been tried and tested using this list in the past few weeks, with the vast majority of us voting in favour. This is purely based on the number of different people speaking out against the Israeli government, and in favour of boycott, as opposed to all the same few trying to be vocal in defending what cannot be defended (i.e. the official politics of Israel).
(ii) When the EGM at Imperial threw it out: What facts were they presented with? Was the purpose of the boycott and its expected effects explained properly? Or was the discussion led in the way that was suggesting that the boycott was not not a good idea (in the way that some have been trying to argue here)?
(iii) All this rather suggesting that academics cannot make their own minds up and need to leave it to people with sound political background.

What has all this to do with her origin? She demonstrates, clearly than any of her opponents, that she was taught what to think rather than how to think, that there is a correct, ‘objective’ line, from which all others deviate, and that original thought is a matter for select activists; for everyone else, it is an unnecessary, even dangerous pasttime. In short, she is a product of the education system of ‘real existing socialism.’

I would prefer it if HP employed Engage’s policy while reproducing posts from UCU’s activists’ list. Otherwise, what quisquis said.

“Urging a boycott of country is not necessarily racist.”

When no such boycott is urged against countries with real human rights abuses and mass murder, it most certainly is.

“The boycott of Israel – even assuming it could be implemented by those proposing it – is likely to have had close to zero effect. ”

And this is relevant to the question of racism because …?

“The implication was made that the union was racist”

You were given legal advice that the boycott is racist, tossers.

The ghastly S. Blackwell:
“Of course my mistake was seized on by the Israel lobby as evidence that I really was an anti-semite whose real agenda was not human rights at all.”

No comment needed.

I am sure Jenna Delich is going through the wringer now and I wonder whether she puts her misfortune down to a) a reprehensible tendency to accept uncritically anything that confirms her prejudices against the state of Israel which she needs to be immedielty address, or b) the power of the international zionist conspiracy to persecute and silence those who dare speak out against zionist crimes. I wonder which David Duke would choose.

“If you or anyone else mention my name or anything to do with me anywhwere in the media or a public place, I will sue”

LOL.
‘Jenna Delich’.
Sue me.

John, I have no doubt that JD is blaming the Joos.

I’m uncomfortable with the attempts to deduce anything about Ms Delich’s ethnicity on the basis of her surname, her first name or what her first language is. None of these would necessarily indicate what nationality or ethnicity she is.

However, it is definitely the case that all of the countries which were part of the former Soviet post war empire were subjected to years of anti-semitic propaganda, absolutely all of it presented as anti-zionism. This included core claims that the “zionists” were controlling media, threatening the integrity of the Soviet system,seeking to undermine the solidarity of the socialist family of democratic nations, etc etc etc. It is widely and objectively documented in a great many major historical studies– a very readable account of how Stalin developed and used the system is given in Simon Sebag-Montefiore’s “Stalin: In the Court of the Red Tsar– which is also an outstanding book in its own right.

So it would hardly be surprising if Ms Delich had absorbed thought habits of seeing Israel as a country engaged in the genocide of Palestinians, and using her own experience in the post Soviet ethnic conflicts in Eastern Europe as validating that claim.

So, Ven, your astonishment that anyone should argue that anti-semitism is currently a daily part of political discourse surprises me. It’s true that there are many people and political and cultural organizations in the former Soviet Union satellites who have recognised and repudiated both Soviet anti-semitism presented as “anti-zionism” and the more atavistic openly racist forms which preceded it. Good for them.

But unfortunately there are popular political parties and movements in all those countries that still invoke all the tropes of Soviet “anti-zionist” anti-semitism. In Poland, there’s the notorious extreme Roman Catholic radio station which has hordes of followers; there’s the current action of the Lithuanian authorities in seeking to bring Jewish partisans to trial for killing peasants whilst taking no action against individuals well documented to have taken part in enormous massacres of Jews etc etc.

“Much as I’d like to see the appalling views of the leaders of what in a better world would be my own union exposed in full, I think this would be a public relations disaster for HP.”

Quisquis, I think you are underestimating the common sense of the vast majority of Brits. IMO, it would be a PR disaster for UCU, since the issue of the antisemitic nature of the boycott would not be pushed into the background: on the contrary, I believe it would be splashed across the front pages, incl. the legal advice they’ve received.
HP would receive good publicity, imo.

Well NO we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not calling for a boycott of Israel is necessarily racist. I don’t think it is. As regards the likelihood of any boycott being effective, I think this is of importance. To many people, this boycott marlarkey is basically a non-issue, not only because its not necessarily racist to call for a boycott, but also because of the very low chance -practically non-existent – of any effective boycott happening.

If it’s not a realistic danger at all, people filter these things out. Regular people, that is – apart from obsessives of either side, of course. Yes, yes, HP and Engage think everyone who calls for a boycott is a scheming antisemite (that’s Hirsh’s line anyway). Everyone gets irate. Fair enough, its a hardened ideological position. It’s all pretty pointless of course, but there you go. The non-issue of a boycott gives folk something to, well, engage in, have a good ding dong with academics over something irrelevant, it’s chance for folk to hurl abuse at one another.

“I’m uncomfortable with the attempts to deduce anything about Ms Delich’s ethnicity on the basis of her surname, her first name or what her first language is. None of these would necessarily indicate what nationality or ethnicity she is.”

Does it really matter? Isn’t the problem her actions, not what may have caused or influenced them?

Echoing Paul M’s sentiment

One thing is clear, bringing down Harry’s Place was utterly counter productive to the UCU pro-boycotters and their political allies.

Perhaps they felt they were helping Ms.Delich ?

but that’s not how it worked out, instead the issue of racism within UCU has been brought to the fore.

And more importantly why that racism is there in the first place?

so if you indulge in anti-Jewish racism on email lists then you risk exposure. The laws of confidentiality do not cover furtive racism.

When I first started tracking support for HP across the Web (soon after it will shut down), there were about 21-26 sites that carried the news, at the last count it was 2180.

A hundredfold increase.

So the pro-boycotters, HP haters and assorted cranks have learned something, that dictators across the world are finally getting into their heads, you can’t censor the Internet and when you try to, it will come back and bite you.

It’s not a lesson that they like learning.

To many people, this boycott marlarkey is basically a non-issue, not only because its not necessarily racist to call for a boycott, but also because of the very low chance -practically non-existent – of any effective boycott happening.

It will have little or no affect on Israel as a country, true.

But it has definitely already had an affect on the treatment of certain Israelis and Jews in academic – and other – circles.

Which, when I think about it, is not really too big a problem, because, at least on the bright side, they have “control of the press.” Especially over the well known hyper pro-Zionist BBC.

So it’s kind of a wash.

Well, I have heard allegations that the UCU list is “dominated” “extremists”, racists, antisemites etc. I have heard allegations that “they have bullied Jews off this list, and out of the Union. They have expelled other members on trumped up charges.”

Many assertions, but if someone can provide me with actual evidence, I shall be grateful.

I’m opposed to publishing the entire list, the UCU is surely entitled to have somewhere to discuss it’s legitimate union business without having the bosses looking over their shoulders isn’t it?

Enough on Jenna Delich. It is now time to leave her alone.

Delich has a record of writing antisemitic material and she linked to an antisemitic piece on David Duke’s website.

But she is not an academic and she is not an important player in the union or in the boycott debate.

Her google profile is now very bad and that will be a real problem for her. There you go, she brought that on herself. But enough now.

The point is:

(1) the UCU is a place where the kind of ignorant racism that she forwarded is considered normal – except for the fact that it was to be found on Duke’s site – linking to that fascist website is considered by some activists to have been an unfortunate error which could happen to anybody.

(2) The UCU has a problem with institutional racism which needs sorting out. I am a loyal UCU member and I want UCU to be a decent union. That is why I criticise it.

(3) The leaders of the boycott campaign are rallying round to try to close the breach in the “criticism of Israel is not antisemitic” brick wall. The Delich case is important to the boycotters and they are defending the purveyor of antisemitic conspiracy theory against the antiracists.

But enough already about Delich. She’s an ignorant person who got caught up in something she didn’t understand.

“It’s a very dubious game to play dicking around with people’s privacy.”

But the idea of excluding all Israelis and alienating Jews from UK academia is not serious? These people could not be more hypocritical. Not only have these UCU members earned the negative attention they’re getting, but it is the obligation of every anti-boycotter to make the disgusting opinions of these fringe-dwellers known. If pro-boycott UCU members don’t recognize that this negative publicity (and in their minds “hyperbole”) is in the very least the mirror image of their own virulent misrepresentation of Israeli society and middle eastern politics than how can anyone ever even expect to “Engage” in a productive dialogue with them?

A question:
HP publicly fingered Delich as a “David Duke fan”.
Do you stand by that characterization?

I believe Jenna Delich’s exact quote was “No comment necessary. The facts speak for themselves.”

“It’s a very dubious game to play dicking around with people’s privacy.”

But the idea of excluding all Israelis and alienating Jews from UK academia is not serious? These people could not be more hypocritical.

well no – but neither could someone who supports the publications of names, contact details etc and then also opposes the boycott.

neither is a good thing. HP could have held a far higher ground over this without the reduction to personal attacks and invitations to harassment.

“…If you aren’t adult enough to not be hurt by words then maybe you should go live in Gaza and see what it’s like to be on the receiving end of real violence….”

Noel Douglas (one of the UCU contributors) is right about Gaza. I’m thinking in particular about the brutality and violence meted out by Hamas against, well, anyone who disagrees with them – sometimes even throwing political opponents off the top of high buildings. I’m not quite sure that that’s what he meant though

;-)

Does it really matter? Isn’t the problem her actions, not what may have caused or influenced them?

Well there is the slight problem that you can be reinforcing ignorant stereotypes about the Balkans and its peoples whilst supposedly discussing the middle-east in detail.

“well no – but neither could someone who supports the publications of names, contact details etc and then also opposes the boycott.”

Please explain the hypocrisy involved, I don’t see it.

One party is suggesting excluding an entire group of people from academia based on national origin, the other is publishing the words and names of people posting to a mailing list.

Really impressed with Andy Newman on this.

He’s put a good piece up on Socialist Unity here

Sticking his head above the parapet, as it were.

Or rather here -

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2766

Her google profile is now very bad and that will be a real problem for her. There you go, she brought that on herself.

Yeah, pretty easy to say sitting pretty in Goldsmiths College, London, Mr Hirsh.

I guess its ‘unfortunate’ that someones prospects are screwed because of various forms of personal abuse, and speculation about her past, her nationality (that plays into another form of racism).

It was wrong for her to link to DD, she may be entirely wrong in her political views, but its also wrong for her to be a victim of this sort of stunt. This sort of invasion of privacy and open, widespread abuse has wider implications – and they are not good. It will do nothing for Hirsh’s fight in the union.

Anyway, you heard him, Hirsh has called off the dogs. This is the future for blogging I think.

I guess its ‘unfortunate’ that someones prospects are screwed because of various forms of personal abuse, and speculation about her past, her nationality (that plays into another form of racism)

How is speculating about her nationality going to screw her prospects?

You’re quite mad, aren’t you?

Benjamin says all this is actually a non-issue because there is

very low chance -practically non-existent – of any effective boycott happening

The point is that the constant discussion of and promotion of the idea of a boycott is oppressive to Israeli and Jewish academics in Britain.

I personally know at least one person who is afraid to ask the union for help in a pay dispute because of being Israeli.

Yeah, pretty easy to say sitting pretty in Goldsmiths College, London, Mr Hirsh.

Benji. Delich appears to have a rather large part in the future of Adult and continuing education for the whole of Sheffield if her delegated duties for CITINET are anything to go by.

Knowing what we do about basic education levels on the Manor estate and Park Hill I think anyone with the slightest amount of sense might suggest that she stops blabbering about Israel (and linking to Duke) and gets on with something which it is in her power to change.

And of course its is only a low chamce because it is being actively opposed.

But she is not an academic and she is not an important player in the union or in the boycott debate.

She’s an ignorant person who got caught up in something she didn’t understand.

That’s very different from the spin that was given by David T earlier. Now she’s a minor player in the union and the boycott debate, and just ‘ignorant’ without understanding. But worthy of days of abuse and screwing up the google profile. Blimey.

Graham

People “blabber” about all sorts of things in their spare time, I am sure you do to. It doesn’t necessarily have a bearing on their job.

Treat that as a first draft. Here’s the finished sentiment:

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2072

Storm in a molehill! Storm in a molehill! Nothing to see here, move along now. Come on chaps. Yawn. Let’s talk about something interesting, like me….

[16-Jun-2008 20:06:42] Benji-O-Matic DEBUG warning: infinite loop detected at line 2989, core dump follows.

Well, David Hirsh’s spin is very different indeed. Perhaps you chaps should fight the fights that are important rather than going for lowest common denominator stuff like this. This is just eye for an eye. You lot clearly think you are victims of a witchhunt, so the first clear chance you get, even someone as marginal as Delich, who did something stupid but irrelevant, you all pile in. What groupthink.

People “blabber” about all sorts of things in their spare time, I am sure you do to. It doesn’t necessarily have a bearing on their job.

Most people are not however caught out linking to Duke (which was the context for all statements.)

When I first began teaching adults (which is what I have always wanted to do) I had no time at all for blabbering (on or off the internet) so somebody whose job is to implement a second chance strategy for adult learners in a city where many schools have constantly under-achieved has taken on a job which it may be suggested needs a certain level of commitment which Ms Delich may now find since she got her fingers burnt on the middle-east (of course if she finds the ME so interesting she could always try and get a similar job with the Palestinian authority. By contrast a sociology lecturer at Goldsmiths (for example) is only responsible to his undergraduate and postgraduate students and would have far more time for blabbering (I know this because I was a student there.)

Israel’s “google profile” is worse every time an ignorant bigot like Delich posts a link to a racist website to seven hundred people on a mailing list while supporting the content of antisemitic literature. In fact, what country has a worse, and more undeserved “google profile” than Israel? It’s this distorted internet profile that allows bigots like Delich to operate in the first place. I have little sympathy for Delich who still has not even renounced the content of the antisemitic article she endorsed. This is justice.

As a great American jurist said, “Sunlight isa the best disinfectant.”

Ms. Delich made her comments in a public forum to a potential audence of thousands. She had no reasonable expectation of privacy.

As for her email and work details, when the storm first broke, I googled her and found out all her information without Harry’s place- from her own postings.

As for the UCU, like the Nixon White House, they are discovering it’s not the crime. It’s the coverup.

“Well there is the slight problem that you can be reinforcing ignorant stereotypes about the Balkans and its peoples whilst supposedly discussing the middle-east in detail.”

Surely the view to take is that she speaks for herself, not as any kind of ‘representative’ of Balkan citizens…?

“As for the UCU, like the Nixon White House, they are discovering it’s not the crime. It’s the coverup.”

Yes, there’s the rub. They truly are the achitects of their own misfortune. An apology and a bit of internal clean up and this really would be just a storm in a teacup.

Andy Newman is explaining “how to spot the racism in David Duke’s web site” to an unappreciative audience, but as he says:

“To claim that linking to David Duke’s site is an understandable mistake that anyone could make is simply not true. You need to be wilfully blind to not only anti-Semitism but also racism to not detect that this is a far-right hate site. The racism and anti-Semitism is not even coded.”

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2766

well done Andy, you won’t get any thanks tho

David Hirsh seems to be rapidly backing away from suggesting that Delich is an anti-Semite, but just made a foolish mistake. That appears to be David Hirsh’s position. Nevermind that her google profile is now ruined. Nevermind that she has apparently been receiving hate mail and death threats. Nevermind that her picture, name and place of work were given out, Redwatch style (as Lenin comments). David Hirsh may “personally feel sorry for her” but really is a bit late for that.

This is a horrible, sordid affair. HP and engage have taken an instance were they had a sound argument and the moral high ground (a posting on a mailing list that was anti-Semitic in its effect if not its intent), and dragged it into the mud. There was no need for the lies, distortions and exagerations that HP engaged in, and a sound case could have been made, without even mentioning the individual involved. An honest person would also have acknowledged that within hours Delich apologised for what she said was a mistake. And UCU have banned her. Even some loyal HPers like Wardytron and Maven are backing off. This is filthy, nasty politics.

“Well, David Hirsh’s spin is very different indeed. Perhaps you chaps should fight the fights that are important rather than going for lowest common denominator stuff like this. This is just eye for an eye. You lot clearly think you are victims of a witchhunt, so the first clear chance you get, even someone as marginal as Delich, who did something stupid but irrelevant, you all pile in. What groupthink”

Quite, quite mad. You are the sort of person who will always blame a rape victim.

“Nevermind that her picture, name and place of work were given out, Redwatch style”

They were available before all this happened, dumbo.

Judy, and others (especially the poster who argued that antisemitism in Eastern Europe dates from 1948): it started a very long time before that.

No, “The Irie”. My position has not changed since I first wrote on the incident on Engage here: http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2058

The point is the institutional antisemitism of the union and the boycott campaign.

The fact that Delich offered us a piece of antisemitic conspiracy theory from David Duke’s fascist website with the words “the facts speak for themselves” is interesting for what it tells us about the union and the boycotters, not about Delich.

“I do think this “witch-hunting” aspect of this and other recent posts, and, in particular the way this thread has developed, is somewhat despicable, in fact.”

Kneejerk reaction from the dumb left, right on cue. Blame those exposing the UCU’s witch hunt, not the UCU … another idiot who will always blame the rape victim.

This piece by Hirsh at Engage makes some clear points. The danger in focusing on the personalities involved is that the boycott fanatics can make the argument about that and draw attention away from the substantive point, namely that their discourse is indistinguishable from neo-Nazism.

“There was no need for the lies, distortions and exagerations that HP engaged in…”

There were none, you idiot.

rather predictably, TheIrie is blaming HP for it all? Hmm, didn’t see that one coming?

Surely the view to take is that she speaks for herself, not as any kind of ‘representative’ of Balkan citizens…?

That would be marvelous (however, it isn’t happening – esp on the temporary thread from yesterday where all sorts of assumptions that would be laughable made about modern Germans were made apparently seriously about modern Croats.)

“…all sorts of assumptions that would be laughable made about modern Germans were made apparently seriously about modern Croats.”

Good grief! Yeah, that doesn’t help.

“Delich apologised for what she said was a mistake”

Delich has not disavowed the antisemitic content of the article she endorsed.

TheIrie predictably defends those who peddle racist literature over those who expose them.

David – “… is interesting for what it tells us about the union and the boycotters, not about Delich.” Then why name Delich? And why assert, as HP did, (here is the lie Brett) that she was a David Duke fan? As I said, it would not have been (and actually wasn’t) hard to convince most people (including me) that the original incident was a case of anti-Semitism. Certainly the UCU people seem to have been convinced enough to ban her. But the moral and practical victory was squandered by the aggressive and nasty conduct on this blog.

@Nearly Oxfordian

““I do think this “witch-hunting” aspect of this and other recent posts, and, in particular the way this thread has developed, is somewhat despicable, in fact.”

Kneejerk reaction from the dumb left, right on cue. Blame those exposing the UCU’s witch hunt, not the UCU … another idiot who will always blame the rape victim.”

Christ you’re an unthinking, ignorant prick – it’s people like you who have made me stop reading the comment threads here. Unlike you, Venichka, who made the comment you quoted, is reasonable, considered, knowledgeable and contributes to the debate. He is also, as he has stated many times, not left wing, which is one of the reasons I often disagree with what he says; but what he says is always worth reading, unlike the ill-thought out invective that you spew out.

What annoys me is the way that despite linking to a racist facist website, the majority of her peers are defending her! Why not just accept that she did something wrong, accept responsibility and move on, but no they are either so arrogant, that they cannot see the problem and the offence that the article will have caused (its all right we are intellectuals dontcha know) or they are as intimated condoning the anti-Semitic stance that the article infers. Either way the honourable course of action would of been a full apology.

An honest person would also have acknowledged that within hours Delich apologised for what she said was a mistake.

Don’t be a bloody hypocrite, Andrew. You are here every day trying to find the slightest chink in sympathy for Israel to reveal a racist core, and never once condemning even the most patent antisemitism. Furthermore, she did not apologize for linking to KKK and Nazi affiliated sites. She apologized for doing do unambiguously, i.e. she’s only sorry she was caught.

An honest person would acknowledge that the HP authors did not advocate her being disciplined. This shit-storm has occured due to actions by persons unknown in *sympathy* with her.

This is filthy, nasty politics.

And UCU have banned her.

From the e-mail list, which is for Union matters and not wholely unrelated political issues.

GRAHAM

Well there is the slight problem that you can be reinforcing ignorant stereotypes about the Balkans and its peoples whilst supposedly discussing the middle-east in detail.

There’s something here for everyone. If she’s Serbian or Croatian, along can come Morgoth to prattle on about the Ustashe or Judenrein Belgrade. If she’s Bosniak, along can come Palubwanki to prattle on about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and a few Jewish families in left Kosova.

JUDY

I’m uncomfortable with the attempts to deduce anything about Ms Delich’s ethnicity on the basis of her surname, her first name or what her first language is.

I didn’t think anything of it at first (and then only observed how little it bolstered her position). Jenna’s an unremarkable enough English name in my experience. It was she who volunteered the information that her “people” had been “slaughtered” that it, like her views on Israel (just as it’s someone on Seymour’s site who mentioned her first language).

JOHN MEREDITH

I wonder which David Duke would choose.

He’s already gone for option b in the case of Nicholas Kollerstrom (see general/the-latest-holocaust®-victim_3897.html on his site), who’s sticking to the “honest mistake” line.

“Then why name Delich? And why assert, as HP did, (here is the lie Brett) that she was a David Duke fan? “

That’s not “a lie” TheIries, that’s a sacrcastic quip about someone who sends out approving links to articles on David Duke’s website. It’s fair coment. It’s opinion. This is a blog, not court testimony.

There was no need for the lies, distortions and exagerations that HP engaged in

As you’re so keen to defend others litigating against HP authors, I think it’s high time HP authors took you to the cleaners unless you can prove that, you hypocritical schnorrer.

TheIrie, if you link to material that is going to cause the amount of offence that this did then you should bear the consequences of your actions. Just because she did not know who Davis Duke was is no excuse. The wider point of the Harry’s place article obviously was to highlight the anti-Semitic stance that some members of the UCU are advocating. This is a worthy and important stance and she deserves every bit of opprobrium headed her way. Ignorance is no defence, neither is stupidity

My heart breaks, the exposure of Jenna Delich’s linking to an explicitly anti-Semitic, conspiracy article on a neo-Nazi website ruined her reputation. And might have damaged her life.

As Shmuel rightly posted earlier, the whole idea of the boycott is to damage the lives of individual academics just because they happen to be Israelis. A collective punishment to be exacted at a personal level. And make no mistakes: you don’t need an official boycott. All you need is the present mood music. How many Israeli students didn’t receive a postdoc in UK because they are Israeli (except that, since one idiot in Oxford was found out, nobody will put it in writing)? How many Israeli academics were refused a place for a sabbatical? An invitation to a meeting? How many don’t feel welcome, hence go elsewhere? You don’t need an official boycott for this, all you need is this level of obsessive hatred.

So, my sympathy for Jenna Delich takes distinctively second (or millionth, or googolth) place in the order of things.

And, incidentally, all this affair has had (here is an optimist talking) one salutary effect. At the very least, even the most rabid posters on the UCU list will in the future check twice and trice their links and perhaps even temper their more obnoxious statements. Nothing like good publicity for bad deeds!

“All you need is the present mood music…”
s.o.muffin makes an extremely important point.

‘A question:

HP publicly fingered Delich as a “David Duke fan”.

Do you stand by that characterization?’

I don’t see her hurrying to disassociate herself from his views, or apologise for ‘accidentally’ endorsing them.

Oh, and fuck off Benji.

How many Israeli students didn’t receive a postdoc in UK because they are Israeli (except that, since one idiot in Oxford was found out, nobody will put it in writing)?

I don’t remember this story? Do you have more information? Sounds pretty shocking.

Worcester college, ca. 2005. The ‘academic’ in question was reprimanded. A blot on his record, like JD’s. And a bloody good thing, too.

“But the moral and practical victory was squandered by the aggressive and nasty conduct on this blog”

Rich, from an aggressive and nasty poster of antisemitic lies.

Yes, excellent point from s.o.muffin.

DavidT

You should definitely publish the UCU emails every day

If they have nothing to hide then why should they care?

On the other hand if they are using antiZionism as a cloak for antisemitism then everyone shoukd know about it.

*************P*U*B*L*I*S*H***********

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

It was Pembroke College 2003. The student was Amit Duvashi. Unless there was also an incident (later in 2005) at Worcester College that I did not hear about?

The oxford student was Amit Duvashi. It was Pembroke 2003. Unless there was a similar incident at Worcester College in 2005, that I did not hear about?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

Here’s the story. The University acted commendably fast.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

Here’s the story, the University acted commendably fast

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

Here’s the story, the University acted commendably fast.

Brett, “a sarcastic quip”, right. And I suppose when David T said “It is therefore reasonable to infer that Jenna Delich reads and takes her information on world events from neo Nazis”, that was also a hilarious joke.

(For the record I think the UCU boycotters are a disgrace. But that doesn’t mean that HP’s handling of this isn’t too.)

Thanks for that.

I found the email here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

Here is the Amit Duvshani case

Welcome back, HP!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

The Duvshani case

“A sarcastic quip” – good one. I’ll remember that. What about the death threats it inspired then Brett – are they sarcastic too?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

The University acted very fast.

Welcome back HP!

test

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

The Duvshani case is here, the Univ acted commendably fast

Welcome back HP!

How do you know that there has been death threats Irie?
Were they inspired by the massive coverage after HP was taken down?

“And I suppose when David T said “It is therefore reasonable to infer that Jenna Delich reads and takes her information on world events from neo Nazis”, that was also a hilarious joke.”

It is perfectly reasonable to infer such a thing. Did she or did she not link to an article by an antisimitic crank hosted on a neo-Nazi’s website and distribute it with an enthusiastic endorsement?

She said the article’s truth spoke for itself. This is an article that claimed ‘ZOG’ conspiracies theories where “close to fact”. What’s more, she continues to see nothing wrong with this type of article. Just where does such a worldview derive from?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

The Duvashi case. The University acted commendably fast.

Welcone back HP

Brett – isn’t it also a possibility that this lady (who we know nothing about) has never heard of Duke (as she herself claims) and found the article through google (as she herself claims) and posted it that way. Therefore, to just make up the facts to suit your argument, and unleash a wave of nasty intimidation on a private individual posting in a private forum, is the worst form of nasty, shallow, aggressive politics out there. You have undermined your argument by doing it.

Incidentally, her apparent apology can be read here:

http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/fwiw-bugger-off-harry/#more-497

Yes, let’s not forget that she said ‘the words are speaking for themselves’, or some such silliness. That is an endorsement in anyone’s book (assuming they are sane: some of the more antisemitic posters here are probably not).

Jonathan, that was my recollection. I always had a picture of Worcester college in my mind when thinking about that incident. However, it may well have been Pembroke all along. I’ll try to find some links.

OK, it was Wilkie and Pembroke. Sorry!

My search reminded me of Mona Baker’s boycotting of eminent Israeli academics from her journal, published by UMIST but legalistically and cravenly claimed by them to be ‘nothing to do with us’.

Todays state polls show Obama ahead in Florida,Pennsylvania,New Mexico and Nevada.
If he wins those then its all over.

However,I agree with Gene that polls in August are very unreliable.

Sorry wrong thread

TheIrie,

That’s not a good choice as a source, the author of Complexsystemofpipes didn’t see the racism in that particular David Duke’s web page, so he’d hardly that astute:

“Having read the article, I can see how it would be an easy mistake to make. Duke only really reveals himself as a raving White supremacist on the “about” page.”

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4486641877026778105&postID=6011765618862885943&isPopup=true&pli=1

Andy Newman (no fan of HP) ably explains the racist content of those pages, http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2766

@ Nearly Oxfordian

‘“I do think this “witch-hunting” aspect of this and other recent posts, and, in particular the way this thread has developed, is somewhat despicable, in fact.”

Kneejerk reaction from the dumb left, right on cue. Blame those exposing the UCU’s witch hunt, not the UCU … another idiot who will always blame the rape victim.’

It’s ignorant, jabbering pricks like you who have made me stop reading the comment threads here. Venichka, whose comment you quoted, is not, as he has stated on numerous occasions, left wing, which is why I often disagree with his opinions; but his contributions are knowlegeable, considered and always well worth reading, unlike the spiteful, ill-thought out invective you hammer out.

And yet YOU cry knee-jerk. Count the number of posts you’ve made on this thread – a lot – and consider honestly which ones contain any remotely worthwhile thoughts, and then fucking think a bit before you type next time.

I’m sorry Brett, but to describe her as a “David Duke fan” who “takes her information on world events from neo Nazis”, gives an utterly false picture the situation, and you know it.

The thing is, it also it also runs counter to your general argument: that antisemitism can unconsciously creep into left-wing thinking, and manifest itself in groups and organisations whose members may not individually hate Jews. It’s a much more thought-provoking idea than UK universities full of cartoon Klanswomen.

No, you chucked any consideration of the details of reality in the bin, and went for a cheap, nasty gotcha instead. Frankly, I’m surprised you didn’t go the hole hog and photoshop a KKK hood onto her picture.

If HP wants to be at the forefront of the fight for the “spirit of the left”, it’s not enough simply to oppose to the bad guys as viciously as possible, and with the nearest tools to hand. Some control over your own behaviour, and basic regard for the truth is also required.

TheIrire:

Have you read the original article which Delich and her supporters still find utterly innocuous? Have you read other articles by this same author? If so, I would like your comments on it, and what you think about those who would still espouse it unambiguously and without “problematisation”.

Totally in agreement with Muffin here.
I wonder how many more Israeli academics don’t even think of teaching in the UK because of the mood music.
And remember, you may have several Delich’s, a dozen johngs (see his indignation with Andy Newman for taking the right line), a hundred Cuhsmans, and a thousand TheIries and Benjamins.
This is a very grim mood music.

Rarely Moved, you know where you can shove your drivel.

Benjamin
28 August 2008, 3:27 pm

Well, I have heard allegations that the UCU list is “dominated” “extremists”, racists, antisemites etc. I have heard allegations that “they have bullied Jews off this list, and out of the Union. They have expelled other members on trumped up charges.”

Many assertions, but if someone can provide me with actual evidence, I shall be grateful.

Benjamin:

David Hirsh lost his activists’ list privileges and there’s a weblog, the name of which escapes me, that belongs to a former UCU member who was drummed out. Countess others like Eve Garrard resigned after Sally Hunt’s 180 turn after her election when she supported the “greylist” resolution(having campaigned on an anti-boycott platform), following one of the customary guided tours of Gaza, which naturally didn’t include a side-trip to Sderot or the neighbourhoods where the Falasha or other exiled African and Asian Jewish communities have come to live.

What the Delich “affair” and her supporters show over and over again is their willingness to look only at the admittedly miserable situation of the average Palestinian and substantiate their views by relying on the most biased sources, but never question how much is the fault of Israeli policies and how much is the fault of the Palestinian-Arab-Muslim world, and long pre-dates 18th century history, let alone the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

s.o.muffin: My heart breaks, the exposure of Jenna Delich’s linking to an explicitly anti-Semitic, conspiracy article on a neo-Nazi website ruined her reputation. And might have damaged her life.

May I recomend schadenfreude? The little twit immolated herself then exacerbated the situation by working to have this site taken down.

While on some levels I pity her, judging from her writings, she will be able to contribute to mankind in the food services industry.

groups and organisations whose members may not individually hate Jews

Larry Teabag has (probably unintentionally, but who am I to impute intentions) put his hand on the crux of the matter, once we only replace “individually hate Jews” by “hate individual Jews”. While right-wing anti-Semites hate individual Jews, left-wing anti-Semites hate Jews in groups of three or more.

And before all the usual pond-life crawls from the deep: once I am saying “left-wing anti-Semites” (echoing August Bebel’s quip that anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools) I do not mean those criticial of Israeli policies (whether I consider this criticism as right or wrong, that’s immaterial. I don’t even consider anti-Zionists (who come in many flavours) or supporters of a one-state solution as anti-Semites. But whoever can read Quinn’s article and refer to it in glowing terms, to all the Protocols’-like filth there – well, these are anti-Semites and no amount of TheIrie Magical Washing Powder will wash this out.

in all of these events, one thing surprises me:

why hasn’t TheIrie joined UCU (he’s an academic) and fully explored the UCU activists list?

TheIrie would probably find the UCU activists list like a home away from home

where he could swap stories about nasty “Zionists”, he and others would be free to concoct ludicrous tales on the powerful “Zionists”, US imperialism, etc and TheIrie would be in heaven

Not that TheIrie would even notice any of the racism in the UCU activists list, I suppose someone would even have to explain to him who David Duke is, and why his web site is full of racist filth

TheIrie, go on join the union, you’ll love it!

Perhaps the Irie does not wish to join a Union,and then campaign for it to break the Race Relations Act?

Thanks to Benjamin, Venichka and TheIrie for pointing out the simple truth that it’s wrong to hound people and publish information and misinformation about them that leads to their getting actual death threats because of what they’d written in an email to someone called “John”. Sorry about all the flak you’ve taken from people who think this behaviour is somehow justified because of…oh, something or other. It isn’t. Brett wrote a post titled “A line must be drawn”. Yes, a line must be drawn. Somewhere between posting a picture of Jenna Delich with the caption “Jenna Delich – links to far right websites associated with the Ku Klux Klan” and not doing it. Not doing it is the right side of the line to be on, because even by its own most generous interpretation it isn’t true.

Oh, and Larry Teabag.

looking at the silly comments on SU blog, some fanatics there seem to think that Unions are immune from the Race Relations Act, along with these email lists, what strange way of thinking?

wardy: Jenna Delich has promoted the vilest form of antisemitism, and to state that, with or without picture, is not to be responsible for supposed death threats. I am not feeling bad for her at all.
You are being silly.

Seriously, Wardy, which case of a soi disant anti-racist and anti-fascist political activist who cannot either recognize the name of a former KKK Grand Wizard and pro-Nazi racist with operations both in the USA and Ukraine or parse the glaring racism in an article but forwards links to *and* endorses views contained therein of articles stored on their personal websites have you been following?

I’ve had my objections to elements of HP’s conduct, as explained above, but compared to being a soi disant anti-racist and anti-fascist political activist who cannot either recognize the name of a former KKK Grand Wizard and pro-Nazi racist with operations both in the USA and Ukraine or parse the glaring racism in an article but forwards links to *and* endorses views contained therein of articles stored on their personal websites – they’re small-fry. Sorry: , they’re small-fry (don’t mean to imply former KKK Grand Wizards and/or pro-Nazi racists are small-fry).

On a far reduced scale, HP is no more responsible for the threats this odious woman has received as Churchill and Roosevelt were for the deportation of Hanover’s Jews.

I’m with S. The only person in a similar situation I have less sympathy for is Nicholas Kollerstrom. And that’s because he’s thick enough to actually appear with white fascists.

To “hound” her. (!?)
Let me shed some tears for a nazi.
buuuuuu!

I’m sorry Brett, but to describe her as a “David Duke fan” who “takes her information on world events from neo Nazis”, gives an utterly false picture the situation, and you know it.

Given the kinds of racist and hyperbolic statements regarding Israel she endorses, Dante could not have thought of a more ironic and just punishment (if it were true, but of course it isn’t).

No, HP isn’t actually responsible for the threats this woman has received, but it’s not unreasonable to suppose they happened as a result of the posts about her here. I also remember Lenny Henry and Dawn French receiving hate mail from racists who objected to mixed race marriages after the Sun published their home address. It wasn’t the Sun’s fault but they shouldn’t have done it. In the smaller and more prosaic world of blogs, I thought it breached an unwritten but still very important and, I thought, widely understood code when Jews Sans Frontiers published personal information about David T and his occupation and employers. The same goes here. Actually, not a code, just a really basic sense of what’s right and what isn’t.

A couple of points:

1. We would all have moved on from Delich, and would be focussing on the more important issues – the convergence between Left and Right rhetoric and analysis and the failures of UCU, generally – were it not for the cretinous act of trying to take this website down.

2. Delich may have decided to keep quiet for a bit, to avoid fuelling this further. It is a pity that this was the form the apology took:

I didn’t realise who David Duke was nor did I hear of him. I just looked at the article not the website where it appeared. Apologies for picking up that website as I personallly am strongly against any racists, anti-semitists and the likes of them. I just found the article quite powerful, and none are saying that Joe Quinn (the author of the article) is a racist or anti-semitist, and the article is quite interesting. So, perhaps we should focus on the article itself and not where it appeared (if we look at it in a broader sense, the website itself appeard on Google and so did the article)? Anyone can put anything on their website… Sincere apologies once again though for picking the wrong website, but it’s the article that I found interesting as it gives some amazing facts and it was not written by David Duke (who, I most certainly agree, has no place in UCU but is the author of the website and not the article).

What can you say?

First, Quinn is the far right Jew hating conspiracy nut par excellence. We’re going to do a piece on him shortly, which will set out his views in full.

Secondly, the article states:

“Yet the Israeli government does a very good job of convincing the whole world that it is the victim in the conflict. How can this be? Israeli control of the press? Could that ubiquitous “conspiracy theory” actually be closer to a conspiracy fact?”
And
“To the Israeli oligarchs, the death of Palestinian civilians is “superb”, and they feel nothing when they kill women and children. What more can I say – either someone does something about these sick pyschopaths, or they, and their kind in Washington and around the world, will destroy us all.”

Not knowing who Duke was is a fair enough excuse.

But continuing to endorse the article as ‘interesting’ and containing ‘amazing facts’, such as ‘Israeli’ control of the Press and Washington, even after she was aware that endorsing and circulating the article was improper, shows that we called this right.

What is even more amazing, is that some people who claim to be anti-racists are repeating precisely this line on Quinn and the article. One of the UCU boycotters – Dermott whassisname – was doing just this yesterday, on the thread below.

These people are not anti-racist at all. The very best you can say about them is that they’re wholly blind to the clearest, hoariest example of racism: at least when it is aimed at Jews.

“No, HP isn’t actually responsible for the threats this woman has received, but it’s not unreasonable to suppose they happened as a result of the posts about her here.”

SFW? I get now and then vile antisemitic comments on my blog, not death threats, yet. Should I not have a blog?

“The same goes here. Actually, not a code, just a really basic sense of what’s right and what isn’t.”

No. The issue for me is this: she has nazi views. In WW2 the British killed nazis.
Now it seems that you employ them to teach your children.
And don’t mention her name! that is really breaching a moral code! Poor nazi woman. Buuu hu huuuu.

but it’s not unreasonable to suppose they happened as a result of the posts about her here.

You are Nicholson Baker and I claim my five pounds! I don’t think HP did publish her e-mail address (as it did, to its detriment, with other Uck-U members on this thread and, just as shamefully, before). Nor do I believe it identified which institution she works at. Somewhat different to Elf’s Grotto.

She, on the other hand, advertizes herself as one of those political activitists based at her particular UCU office both on the e-mail list *and*, I assume, when publically expressing her ’solidarity’ with Palestinians. Even without the photograph, e-mail threats would have been received by people who garnered her address from googles or other sites (which wasn’t her, remember).

She is responsible for the world of hurts she’s in. I shed no tears.

wardytron, what personal information about Jenna Delich was published? A hazy image in the public domain and a vague note that she was based in the city of Sheffield, information also quite easily available and in the public domain? There’s plenty of far more specific information about her in the public domain that we could have published if we’d felt it was in any way relevant to the story. But her name and city of origin seems basic journalistic stuff, no?

David, that’s frightfully interesting, and if I was defending her political views, it might give me pause for thought.

But I’m not. And as evidence that she’s a “David Duke fan” who “takes her information on world events from neo Nazis” – which is what you claimed – it is feeble in the extreme.

I shed no tears.

Well, tears of grief. As a sadist with a heart of stone, I have laughed out loud.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree here. Alternatively someone might want to post a photograph of me with the caption “wardytron – defends nazis”, adding my home address and then in the event of any unfortunate repurcussions claiming that I’m responsible for the world of hurt I’m in and that they shed no tears.

And as evidence that she’s a “David Duke fan”

So, please point us to the bit where she says, people like (S, to name but one), are people to be admired and respected whilst Duke is an racist female pudenda; or the bit where she says, yuk, that was one yukky article.

who “takes her information on world events from neo Nazis”

Likewise, where does she say that, phew, I ain’t going to take no information on world events from this neo-Nazi’s site.

It cannot be emphasized enough. Sue B writes

get a sense of proportion here. Jenna did not post a racist article nor even a link to one. She posted a link to a perfectly reasonable article which,…

So Sue B believes that the article itself was not anti-Semitic. (I know other people on this thread made the observation earlier, but I sincerely believe that this is indicative of the problem with Anti-Zionist crowd.) I post this in lieu of the last comment by David T (9:31 pm) which highlights some of the problems with the article

By the way, isn’t Sue B’s comment iroinic in light of catherine.tanner’s complaint that the CiF suggested that the union as a whoel was racist.

Well let me clarify, people in the union are racist, and anti-semits, Sue B included. Unfortunaltely the union fails to recognise the racism in the union, thereby giving it tacit support.

Sorry to labour the point, Wardy, but where did HP print her work or home address?

And it should be “Wardy defends Nazis”.

And one other thing.

The correct response to the last three or so years of vicious conduct on the UCU list was to argue the case internally, try to change UCU politically, and seek to encourage the UCU to control these extremists, who have hijacked their union.

Well, Engage has been doing that. And precisely where has it got them? Things have gone from bad to worse.

So, exactly what are we supposed to do? As the Assistant Commander in the Met said to Tariq Ghaffur, should we just “shut up”, then??

The immediate trigger for publishing the article, is that UCU has determined that there is no racism on the activists list, and no problem in particular with the past rantings of Delich.

Delich proved UCU wrong, and I pointed it out.

There is a huge problem in UCU, and they’re doing nothing to counter it.

Actually, I bet they try to discipline Hirsh. If they do, they should form a new union.

Talking of suspect websites, I’ve been recommended a site that shows films for democracy – one in particular called “Money Masters: How international bankers control the world”. Has anyone who has seen this film any info about who is behind it?

I have to say I’m with wardytron and Venichka here re the photo of Delich. It makes it all look like a witchhunt and I disagree with it.

I think this woman is misguided and ignorant, and has now been shown up correctly as has the UCU. But the death threats stuff is very unpleasant and the idea that HP might have a part in that is worrying.

But perhaps all mentions of her by name and her photo could be taken down from the main posts ?

I’m not sure where I stand here.

Yes, publishing her photo was probably a bit of a no-no.

But neither her home address, or her email address, were given out.

Likewise, if just her name had been published, anyone inclined to find out what she looks like could quite easily have done so, by googling her name. One of the first hits that comes up (or came up, before this whole fiasco started) was the BBC page, from which the original still image that appeared on HP was taken.

Anyone that desperate to find out what she looks like would have found out anyway. That doesn’t mean it was right for HP to publish the photograph, just that arguing the toss about it is a bit pointless.

Secondly, I don’t really think anything HP published (at least initially) can actually be said to have contributed to the death threats. The only thing that would have avoided that, I guess, is not publishing her name at all. The idea that it is only the fact that people know she is based in Sheffield, or that she’s got a brownish bob, that is responsible for her getting death threats is frankly absurd.

Finally, if she had just issued an apology that actually covered the content of the article, and she (or her friends) had not attempted to take HP down, then frankly none of this would have happened. Some poor choices all round.

I’m with Mark. Although agnostic about the use of her photograph, her name and city of domicile was fair game. Random nutters on the Internet are attracted by easy contact details – workplaces, email addresses.

There was no need for the lies, distortions and exagerations that HP engaged in, and a sound case could have been made, without even mentioning the individual involved.

It’s a bit difficult for us to make that case without a website.

Wardy, I’m not convinced publication of email addresses was a wise idea, but there is a world of difference between reposting information already in the public domain (Delich posts as Delich and clearly does not seek anonymity) and blowing the cover of a poster/commentator who wants to/needs to remain anonymous. The code to which you refer covers the latter, not the former, surely?

We didn’t blow Jenna Delich the academic’s cover as a commentator; we exposed the fact that she approvingly posted an anti-semitic article sourced from an ex-Klansman’s website. If this really has led to her receiving hate mail, then this is to be deplored, but I don’t believe we share one iota of responsibility for that.

More generally, the argument that Delich may not have properly understood the provenance of the source for the offending article is a gargantuan red-herring. She unequivocally endorses an article replete with anti-semitic tropes. The fact that she might not recognise the material as objectively anti-semitic will, I’m sure, provide no end of confort to those who face the hard-edged, real-life consequences of the mainstreaming of racist ideologies.

lenin doesn’t have any moral authority to post about Nazis after he was caught supporting closing down a blog for highlighting Nazi activity.

let’s not forget had Ms. Delich not decided to post a link to a racist article on David Duke’s web site, we would not be here

Whether writing about different languages is racist or not is obviously subjective. However what is not subjective is circulating material from Nazi websites.

Johng can’t wriggle out of that I’m afraid. You were wrong to support closing down a blog that highlighted this problem and you must accept this.

In today’s world you don’t need to publish full address, email, telephone number and 10-megapixel likeness. Just publish a name and Google will do the rest for you.

So, here we have an interesting dilemma:

Either HP publishes Jenna Delich’s name under her post and the “I am not trying to defend David Duke but you have done the poor woman wrong by revealing her name” brigade will complain;

or HP redacts the name from the post in question, so that the very same brigade complains, Benji-like, that all this is a figment of HP’s imagination (or, for the hard-core, that this is a Zionist well-funded black operation to blacken the reputation of the anti-racist stalwarts of UCU).

Of course, there is also

The third option: Publish nothing. UCU activists should be allowed praising anti-Semitic articles on neo-Nazi websites without those nasty HP people switching the light on.

This is of course the preferred option of the brigade in question, once you strip the cant and the spin.

And, incidentally, had Jenna Delich really and wholesomely apologised, this would have been a one-day wonder. Had she and her supporters just kept shtum for a couple of days, this would have been a one-week wonder in a world where wonders come and go. But either she or her mates attempted to shut HP with a malicious complaint. So now this should be an eternal wonder with no right of parole.

jd: “look! i found an excellent book! it’s called ‘the protocols of the learned elders of zion’. i found it in that shop over there”
hp: “that’s a nazi shop. see the huge swastika outside? and that’s a racist book, you nazi sympathizing anti-semite”
jd: “oh, so _that’s_ a swastika? i had no idea. it’s a nazi bookstore? well color me red. i sincerely apologize. let’s talk about that great book i found there”
hp: “we told you that book is racist.
jd: “nobody said the book is racist”.
sb: “what do you guys want? she apologized for buying at a nazi store and there’s nothing wrong with the book”
jd: “i shal try to shut down hp and make myself famous!”
various idiots: “see what you did? now people think she endorses anti-semitic books, you people should be ashamed of yourselves! you called her a racist and now people think she’s a racist! her google profile i ruined”

Option Three, S. And everything thereafter. Including LOL’s post.

I’d like to know what the difference between an antisemitist and an antisemite is.

Option One!

oh, I should remind people that had one of Ms. Delich’s supporters not decided to attack HP, resulting in an enforced outage and lose of service, then we would not be here

as a result of Ms. Delich’s actions and that of her supporters this story has shot across all corners of the world

had they not chosen to act as they did then it is highly likely that the article would have been forgotten within a month or 2, but now by their own actions we are in this situation

LOL, lol

“let’s not forget had Ms. Delich not decided to post a link to a racist article on David Duke’s web site, we would not be here”

should be

let’s not forget had Ms. Delich not decided to post a link to a racist article [enough said], we would not be here

I did feel a bit queasy when at one site I went to someone had published her email and Cushman’s(?) as well – yes, you could have got that information pretty easily but it seemed to me to be an incitement to hate mail/death threats. So I’m with wardytron et al on that.

Francis Sedgemore’s post with exhortations to get in touch with the TUC and the UCU (civilly) struck the right note for me.

http://sedgemore.com/2008/08/ucu-activists-muzzle-critical-bloggers/

Although, LOL, why do Jenna Delich, Sue B and the Uck ‘U mob need to be TOLD that it is an anti-Semitic work. Why couldn’t they work it out for themselves.

The issue of the David Duke web site is a furfy (after all Harry’s Place advertised it too), rather the content of the essay and the inability for the Uck ‘U list members to recognize the anti-Semitic “trope” is of serious concern! I suggest that they fail to recognize the anti-Semitisim in the essay because Jenna Delich, Sue B and the Uck ‘U mob, think those same thoughts and fail to recognize thmeselves as anti-Semites!

Orthodox Jewish schoolboy returns home, clothes torn, lip bleeding:

OJS: Mum, Dad – I was attacked getting off the bus. They kicked me to the gound screaming: “Fuck off back to Israel you hook-nosed kyke”.

Father: Did they mention whether their actions were fuelled by first-handed reading of extremist Neo-Nazi literature, or was it influenced by a more nuanced, mainstrean anti-semitic narrative? What I mean is, do you think they actually know they are racists?

OJS: I don’t know, Dad, but either way, my lip is still bleeding.

did feel a bit queasy when at one site I went to someone had published her email and Cushman’s(?) as well – yes, you could have got that information pretty easily but it seemed to me to be an incitement to hate mail/death threats.

KB Player

How about making the people who sent the threats personally accountable rather than diminishing their personal responsability.

Really, would you hold Google responsible for making the image of here easily found? How about the White Pages, for listing her phone number and address? I am also sure that here email address is accessible from her colleges staff index, do they have any responsibility for what idiots do to her?

Really?

Why don’t the activists on the list campaign for the Race Relations Act to be repealed?
They want the Union to breach it.
Like the Daily Mail and the “Political correctness has gone mad” blazer crowd they really want the law changed,and they’re frustrated.

KB, I am with whomever argues against publishing her and Cushman’s e-mail addresses. Now, where did HP do it?

Alec.
Have the Scottish PSC a policy on linking to Neo Nazi sites?
Or have they finally realised that anti semites in the movement damage every Palestinian?

“I don’t know, Dad, but either way, my lip is still bleeding.”

Exactly. Why is the fact that this article came from Duke’s website even relevant? To this minute, Delich endorses antisemitic literature. That makes her an antisemite. Sorry pedants.

Not HP, a commenter on a thread to one of the sites that was supporting HP – there were loads of them so can’t say which one it was.

Joe – yes of course the person who sends hate mail is the person who carries the moral responsibility. But don’t make it any easier for them.

A crowd is denouncing X. Y joins in and says, “X is in that pub”. So some nutter from the crowd goes and bashes X. Okay, nutter is the chief bad guy, but Y is irresponsible. And Y can’t absolve himself by saying nutter would have found X anyway.

OK, I’ll rephrase my previous post… In the age of search engines and information overload, you don’t need to publish much for an individual to be identified: just a name (in particular, an unusual name) will do. Hence, the entire discussion on publishing email addresses is, frankly, pointless.

The problem is broader. Yes, publishing names of individuals who (in the subjective opinion of the posters) have done wrong and shameful deeds in the public domain might conceivably lead to idiots taking the law into their own hands. This is obviously wrong. On the other hand, redacting all available information to the point of completely obscuring the identity of the alleged wrongdoers irretrievably weakens the veracity of the posted information.

No matter what we do, something must give and there is no neat solution to this. It is a real problem, but my gut feeling is that posting essential facts, without Daily Mail-style incitement, is the preferable option.

Moreover, let us be realistic. There might be idiots taking the law into their own hands or making threatening phone calls. Once they break the law they should be collared and punished after due process. But the real punishment for Jenna Delich, the real impact on her life, will come not from them but from her work colleagues, acquaintances, friends, neighbours, …, who learnt about her something deeply unpleasant and might let her feel (in a non-violent, non-threatening manner) their disapproval. I fail to see what’s wrong about it. And I fail to see what’s wrong with any prospective bigot, trying to post or to link to racist drivel (any racist drivel, against any ethnic group) knowing that there is a good chance their neighbours will not greet than again with a smile across the fence.

OK – we’ve deleted the picture, and added an update to the original explaining why.

I don’t think that a picture, in the public domain can increase the level of threat. However, if there’s a risk of it, we’d rather just take it down.

We could never have run this story without naming Delich: not simply for the reasons mentioned, but specifically because Delich was the subject of a complaint over her conduct, which UCU dismissed. It was, and is, important for UCU to face up to the fact that its activists do not recognise racism, and indeed actively propagate it.

Anti racist politics in the 80’s was so simple.

KKK?
Fuck off Nazi.

I have to admit that may have been naive,as I never considered that the person handing out the leaflets may be

a.A bit thick.
b.An anti imperialist who can’t spot an anti semite.
c.Belong to a Union which will not tackle racism.

Was X innocent of the charges levied against him? In which case, Y has a case to answer.

Next, Wardy is holding HP directly responsible for third parties which posted her contact details. Unless you are suggesting HP was responsible for that site which “was supporting her”, you are not with him.

(Tim, I honestly don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing no.)

KB,

Sorry to make it seem like you’re being hounded, but given the only personal information published was Delich’s name and not her contact details, HP is most certainly not Y in your analogy. Y would be the commentator at the other site for which we bear no responsibility.

tim, you forgot

d.Came from Eastern Europe many years ago, so probably can’t read English all that well, and that.

Incidently.

It was wrong to call JD a “David Duke fan”, given that you have no evidence that she is one.

reading the SU blog threads on this topic is surreal, the SWP are conducting a fierce rearguard action, you’d think they’d know better?

did someone mention Atzmon?

In light of the fact that David T Deleted the picture of Jenna Delich, I thought I would test myself who hard ot was to find her image on the web.

I googled “Jenna Delich Sheffield College”. Low and Behold, I couldn’t immediately find her image, it is currently obscured by all the blogs commenting on her utter moronic, anti-Semitic stupidity, but the second link on the search gave me… well enough information from her own college to act completely irresponsible and to let her know exactly what I think of her.

Of course, I will not repeat exactly what I found lest I be accused of being Y and encouraging a violent mob etc.

I’ll let you all into a secret……………

There has been an interesting debate on the UCU list for a little while now about the Isreal, Palestine and the place of Union’s within it.
(I am not a participant in that debate.)

It is not in any sense antisemitic (or, rather, not as yet!)

As it should and as it is right the entire list has respected the privacy of such a debate.

The comments contained in Quinn’s article is antisemitic. Those who see nothing wrong with it are either being disengenuous or they share the same antisemitic views. (See the content of Quinn’s article above).

So, let’s not pretend.

Antiracists and Unionists have not only the right but also the duty to expose antisemitism, islamophobia, racism, homophobia, wherever and whenever it appears.

In the past, it has always been the antisemites, islamophobes, racists, homephobes who have called “foul” when caught in the act It is always they who resort to feigned indignation and outrage in portraying the legitimate act of “whistleblowing” as disloyalty or, maybe more pertinent in this case “dual loyalty”.

This claim of “leakage” as an equivalent, or even a worse, offence, to the antisemitism visible in these posts is but a last-ditch attempt to keep secret what not everyone now knows, but what many people have known for a very long time; some, but by no means all, anti-Israel/anti-Zionist arguments are couched in antisemitic terms (again, see the above article).

The “some” cannot be expcted to be protected by the “no means all”.

Andy Newman ,

you mean other than endoring a web site baring his name?

But as has recently been pointed out, the issue is hers and other members of ‘Uck U failure top recognize anti-Semitisim, likely because it reflects their own veiws, which they do not recognizes as anti-Semitism, al la Jemma Delich.

Andy Newman is right in this one, and has been right in everything he has written.
He also has to contend with a bunch of right/left anti semites.So give him credit.

s.o. muffin is right — anyone with the most basic Google skills can find out about Jenna Delich in an instant. Her email address was already available on her institution’s website — not in a staff index, because there is none, but as part of a web page which comes up handily on Google without further action necessary. HP didn’t publish it, and didn’t need to. No information about JD was published here that was not already in the public domain.

There are only two Jenna Deliches on Google. One is our friend the antisemite. The other is a young girl in Minneapolis. I feel rather sorry for the latter.

“There has been an interesting debate on the UCU list for a little while now about the Isreal, Palestine and the place of Union’s within it.”

Should read
,
“There has been an interesting debate on the UCU list for a little while now about the Isreal, Palestine and the place of [Trade] Unions within it.”

Quisquis, I don’t. She has lots of friends and is quite good looking.

Yes, Andy Newman has gone up a great deal in my estimation.

Some others have sunk lower.

Andy always was a gent. Completely and utterly stark raving bonkers, but always a gent. Not that I get as remotely hot under the collar about fan-dom claims as e-mail addresse.

These UCU people are deluded fascists. The degraded lingua tertii imperii, the arrogance and the outright anti-semitic racism masquerading as identification with the suffering of the “palestinian volk”.

These semi-literate local authority workers are supposed to be scholars. Have any of them read Victor Klemperer?

Its shaming, its a disgrace and its time they were stopped.

It was wrong to call JD a “David Duke fan”, given that you have no evidence that she is one.

Oh FFS. Let’s call it poetic licence, shall we?

If we’d posted this accusation and no more, you may have a point. But the reality is this was the title given to a post where the facts of what Delich had done and did think were laid out. Anyone who after reading the facts of what she did and said comes away with a negative impression of Delich, will do so because they think her approval of an article replete with anti-semitic tropes reflects badly, not because the relevant post called her a David Duke fan.

But for the record, and on behalf of my co-authors, I’ll happily concede that in all likelihood Delich is no fan of Duke. She says she repudicates him and I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Now, about the 835 websites out there that refer to HP authors as “neo-cons”, “imperialists”, “Islamophoes”, etc. etc…

It would take me approximately 20 seconds to find an example of such “poetic licence” on Socialist Unity (in the comments), and at other sites as part of main posts. But I’m not going to pretend that I either feel libelled or demand that you or anybody else do something about such libel.

Other than that, kudos to you.

True – it is a tough old world out there in the blogosphere, and we all need a rhino’s hide.

But given the fact that the dispute has got so bitter, if i were you i would reword your original article to have a little less journalistic licence, and only stick to the facts that you can defend.

It is not possible to defend the claim she is a Duke fan, so you should withdraw it.

My point is this.

None of us know this woman.

She may be simply naive and foolish. Through her own ill-judged actions she has become linked to David Duke, and through her very stupid attempt to get HP taken down, she has become internationally famous for it.

This is going to live with her for a long time if anyone googles her name and may affect her future job prospects.

That is all bad enough for her, wthout the additionally indefencible claim that she is a “fan” of david duke.

Out of common decency you should take that accusation down.

You have won, show some grace and compassion in victory.

“Out of common decency you should take that accusation down.”

Agreed, Andy. I’ve changed the word “fan” to simply “link”.