Harry’s Place

I think you can be a fascist without being a racist although they usually go hand in hand. Were Lenin (communism is very similar to fascism) or Franco racists ?

No communism isn’t fascism. And yes I think most Ethiopians would concur that Franco was a racist. And moreover whilst it is possible that a fascist may not be a racist they overwhelmingly have been in the past.
The case of Di canio saddens me immensely. I loved him as a Celtic player but as his politics become apparent I was greatly disillusioned. Incidentally whilst I do not know the full details the other potential West Ham manager Slaven Bilic is rumoured to be a right-wing ultra-nationalist.

If they can prise Bilic from Croatia then its his.
However, he is a qualified lawyer.

However, he is a qualified lawyer.

That’s an order of magnitude more worrying than him being a suspected “right-wing ultra-nationalist”…

Franco was a dictator and blood-thirsty megalomaniac, but was he actually a “fascist”? His only ideology was himself. Perhaps many if not most of his followers were “fascists”, but that’s another issue. As for his being racist, where’s the evidence for that? Whomsoever he killed or persecuted, he did so regardless of his victim’s race or creed. True, he did talk of “Jewish” and “Masonic” conspiracies, but unlike the UK, Canada and the US during WW2, he did actually give asylum to a large number of Jews fleeing Nazism. He may have done all that cynically, but such cynicism was nothing compared to that of the allies refused to allow Jews into their territories until most of the Nazis’ extermination policies had been fulfilled.

Yes, you can very easliy be a fascist without being a racist. Italy’s fascist parties no doubt attract racists, but they make pains to distance themselves from racism. I’m no apologist for these parties but I do see them as less racist than many communist parties in Europe, such as the SWP. And yes, unreconstructed communists are generally fascists.

So far as I know Bilic keeps his sympathies under wraps, but has never criticisised the far-right elements of Croatian politics or their links with football. And he likes to gee up his troops with ultra-nationalist rock music.
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/euro2008/bilic-plays-nationalist-rock-120461/

Of course, it would be a weird kiind of ultra-nationalist who abandoned the national post to fatten his wallet in another country. But then Bilic has always been a faker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWwkvALBuUs

WTF happened with the story about El Salvador…
I posted two comments and it all disappeared.

So has the goal.com story you linked to.

Football currently is “big” on respecting authority. It might be assumed that Di Canio’s idea of respecting authority, seen while he was playing for Sheffield Wednesday, could be doubtful judging by the time he pushed a referee over and was sent off – incidentally prompting him to flee back to Italy for a time claiming no one backed him up. So you might wonder if he is the best person to be boss of a club in the Premier league.

Fascism was not, at the beginning, anti-semitic (many Jews were party members and some were even gerarchi and arditi - that is, local party organisers) but it was always racist. Just as an example, “Faccetta nera”, a Fascist marching son about the conquest of Abyssinia, was first banned and then heavily censored because it promoted fraternisation with “inferiors” - i.e. Eritrean girls.

‘And yes I think most Ethiopians would concur that Franco was a racist.’

Don’t you mean Moroccans?

Sorry - I’ve had real problems with formatting.

I have posted it again and it is up for good

I’m not sure Moroccans would concur on that, either. If memory serves me right, most of Franco’s initial forces were mainly composed of “moros” - and some Republican songs (”Viva la Quince Brigada” comes to mind) celebrate the fight against “the fascists and the Moros”. I’ve never heard of a racist commander using black troops.

Hang on, isn’t fascism worse than racism? Fascism is the belief in a totalitarian regime and its trampling on all democratic rights, using violence if necessary. Racism, by its current definition, means a belief that different human groups are different and that these differences make it impossible for them to live peacefully together. You can be a racist and still a democrat and a supporter of the UN declaration of human rights, you can’t be a fascist and believe in these things.
It ridiculous when people say “ban the fascists BNP”. The BNP may be many things, but if you look at their policies they aren’t fascist. Without wanting to sound like Mark Steel the Labour party do have more “fascist” policies. The BNP believe in the right to bear arms, for example (presumably not for black people, though).

“Football currently is “big” on respecting authority. ”

Up to a point.
John Terry was made England Captain.

There was an excellent critique of Di Canio’s politics (as set out in his autobiography) that appeared on an Irish website a few years ago. I can’t seem to find it, now, sadly though.

Basically they were saying that although he admires Mussolini, his far-right (this was before he did the fascist salute) politics actually had more in common with left wing ideals, and he’d turned to the right because the Italian left had let down the working class so many times.

He does seem to have gone bonkers since then, though.

I’m fairly sure the anti-fascists who support west ham will have been similarly upset to hear constant chants of ‘yiddo’ aimed at paul robinson on saturday.

“anti fascists who support West Ham” could hold their annual meeting in a phone box near the Boleyn, perhaps alongside “Irish repubicans who support Rangers”

the thing is, Col, West Ham for geographical reasons have had quite a lot of Jewish supporters over the years. My dear old Dad was one of ‘em. Many Jews of that generation from the East End supported them, and if I’m not mistaken quite a lot of Jamaican and South Asian types do now for similar reasons. So it isnt entirely simple…

As regards ethiopia I was referring to the annexation and use of gas against in the Italo-Abyssinian war.
Sorry for being cryptic.

Ha, ha. Bit harsh on this lot.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20030112/ai_n9682678

that was for Col

Stephen

Re Ethiopians, aren’t you mixing Franco up with Mussolini? It was the Italo-Abyssinian war after all.

Or did Franco have some role in that I don’t know about?

Oh and Col, West Ham have a fair number of black supporters, and these have always been particularly well represented in the ICF. Not saying all ‘ammers are shining lights of liberalism, but it’s worth bearing this in mind.

Us Hammers fans are a strange mix - we’ve got em all except a decent board and now a manager!!

I even hear that Obama is in the mix for the job if he dont get that White House ticket!!

You suffer a lot as a West Ham fan - i’ve been going there since 1966 - and believe me the Curbishley era was crap: boring football under a manager with as much personality as Gordon brown but without the sparkling wit and dynamism.

di Canio was a brilliant player at West ham but his politics stink. I really hope they don’t go for him. Rather hoping they might go for a revolutionary socialist - but can’t see many of them putting their hat/cap in the ring.

Good goal by Bellamy against Blackburn…

I used to go to West Ham fairly regularly and there was always lots of anti-”Yid” chanting (including one particularly offensive song) when we played Spurs, and even sometimes when we were playing other teams. I don’t go so much now, and haven’t been to a Spurs game for years so I don’t know if it’s changed much, although since the all-seater stadium came in there is less singing generally. I think it is mainly down to ignorance and an unthinking hatred of our supposed main rivals rather than objective anti-semitism, although that certainly doesn’t make it ok.

I couldn’t say how many “anti-fascist” West Ham fans there are - it’s not a subject that comes up very often in conversations I have had with other fans. I certainly remember there being objections when we signed Lee Bowyer, who had been charged (but not convicted) of an attack on an Asian student. I also remember some strong views being aired on the WH newsgroup a couple of years ago when the club organised a trip to Dubai and left Yossi Benayoun at home because as an Israeli he wouldn’t have been allowed in - a pretty shameful act in my view.

With regards to Di Canio, of course his infamous Fascist salute came after he had left West Ham and he was already firmly established as a folk hero amongst our supporters by then, so I think people are probably inclined to cut him a lot of slack, possible more than he deserves. Many probably just think that his political views are purely his business. Personally I’d want him to explain exactly what kind of politics he supports (and get an answer I was happy with) before I could support him coming back.

Nonetheless, Eugenio, the Rif anti-colonialist rebellion was suppressed with extraordinary brutality by the Spanish military, and Franco did see service in that campaign.

Furthermore, I wouldn’t necessarily regard command of troops of a different ethnicity as evidence of non-racism - after all, if you believe that your racial group has the right to rule over others, this can extend to white officers commanding black troops. Furthermore, the Nazis were big on Herrenvolk and Untermensch, but that didn’t prevent them from raising local militias in occupied Yugoslavia and the former USSR during WWII.

“Franco was a dictator and blood-thirsty megalomaniac, but was he actually a “fascist”? His only ideology was himself. Perhaps many if not most of his followers were “fascists”, but that’s another issue. As for his being racist, where’s the evidence for that?”

Apparantly back in the 1930s the New Statesman denounced him for being a “Negrophile” because he used North African troops:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/thunderer/article639402.ece

“fascist but not a racist”

I.e. Naturalized Africans can be good Italians as long as they eat lots of lasagna.

Paolo Di Canio, who describes himself as a “fascist but not a racist”

It strikes me that Paulo may be a good footballer, but his grasp of political philosophy is somewhat lacking.

Fascism, properly defined, is characterised by nationalism, which marks it out as a somewhat different in that regard to communism, which can be nationalistic, and just as murderous, but does not have extreme nationalism at its core (in other words it has slightly different pretexts for killing folks).

Perhaps though, Di Canio is not a fascist, despite his boast that he is (he just likes to be a bad boy) but rather a nationalist; you get different flavours of nationalist, I guess, not all fascist.

The loveable Essex team. Still some fairly offensive songs when they play us (Spurs) and occasionally the disgusting gas chamber hissing from a very small minority.

Bilic has just ruled himself out.
I think he’s happier where there’s no smoking ban.

For England’s sake, can we get a temporary revocation in Newham?

Nonetheless, Eugenio, the Rif anti-colonialist rebellion was suppressed with extraordinary brutality by the Spanish military, and Franco did see service in that campaign.

But, still, was he racist or just an authoritarian scumbag? Beevor includes some blood-curdling accounts of his willingness to use Regulares against Spanish (negrophilia as the Graun called it). There was one account of a truck breaking down, and terrified villagers tearing the Moroccan driver to pieces.

Although, the Ethiopians might have a different view of Benny.

Oh, fuck off, Benji.

Steady on, Alec.

“No communism isn’t fascism”

Communism shares with fascism all its essential negative traits bar none.

Di Canio also has DVX tattooed on his arm — some weird Latin version of Duce. Not sure when he had that done, but it may have been before the straight arm incident, so body-art fans have no excuses for not knowing his politics.

Fine player, though.

The fact that Franco’s family was orginally Jewish who converted to Catholicism at the time of the Inquisition in order to remain in Spain probably had something to do with his regime giving refugee to Jews fleeing the Nazis during the War. This may also have been the reason why around 1950, Franco allowed Jews to worship openly in Spain for the first time since they were formally driven out of Spain in 1492.

Mussolini and the Italian Fascists were originally not anti-Semitic. Jews were allowed to be members of the Fascist Party and were not descriminated against. Mussolini’s mistress in 1910s & 20s was Jewish. It was not untill the 30s & the alliance with Nazi Germany that Mussolini and the Italian Fascists became legally anti-Semitic. The so-called Italian “racial” (i.e. anti-Semitic) laws of 1938 was based on Nazi Germany’s anti-Semitic Nuremburg laws was adopated under pressure from Hitler. These laws were unpopular with majority of Italians, both Fascist and anti-Fascist, and were only applied half-heartedly. Latter, during the war, when Germany occupied Italy from Sept. 1943 to May 1945, most Italians protected their Jewish neighbors. 80% of Italy’s Jews survived the Nazis becuse of this help.