Harry’s Place

Excuse my ignorance of this - as a democratic secular leftist I usually manage to ignore this event - but wasn’t this Al Quds day launched by a certain Ayatollah Khomeini, when he was Supreme Leader of Iran. So those taking part are, amongst other things, carrying out the wishes of this esteemed religious figure and the execution squads, tortures and prisons he has bequeathed to the world.

The best way to avoid antisemites in leftist organisations is to leave them and then work against them. If you like me want to help bring people together in the middle east then support charities and other organisations that work with Israelis and Palestinians in order to bring peace between individuals.

You can’t change the world by hanging around with scum like the SWP / Respect /SPSC etc. It is much better to do the research and put the effort in elsewhere. The only thing to be gained by hanging around with the Trotscum and their allies is guilt by association.

The video is actually rather interesting.

Levidow starts off by explaining - as trots do - that the “Jewish Lobby” isn’t controlling the “imperialist” USA; and that those who claim it is, are simply wrong.

But actually, he never stops to think for a moment why it is that Jewish Power theses are so popular, and what sort of people push them. And so, off he skips to the pro-Khomeni Al Quds demonstration, to speak alongside the racist totalitarians of Hizb ut Tahrir, without a care in the world.

But he can’t imagine why it is that the PSC rejected his anti-racism motion, or why it is that racists - both Islamist and White - have in fact found themselves welcomed into Palestinian solidarity politics.

He just doesn’t have a clue.

Les Levidow is one of those cases of that intriguing masochism pathology called “jüdische Selbsthaß”.

Chomsky is the godfather of these holier-than-thou Jewish leftwingers.

They would probably have apologised for Adolf H. himself.

Pathetic.

He is also sharing a platform with the obnoxious “Rabbi” Ahron Cohen of the obnoxious Neturei Carta - who are on the sponsor list

I don’t think that that is fair at all.

There are clearly, and have always been, Jews who actually hate Jews: in any way, shape or form.

That is very different from people like Greenstein et al, who are essentially sectarian Jews: another long standing Jewish tradition. They do not hate Jews. They simply put most of their energy into fighting Jews who are not members of their particular sect.

And it isn’t just a Jewish thing. All sectarians are like this.

I should add that the Old Testament is absolutely packed full of this sort of thing: Jewish prophets castigating Jews for being bad, god punishing Jews for being pernicious and unfaithful, and so on…

By this test, you could make a very good case for big chunks of the Bible being the work of self-hating Jews.

Two news items from Iran, fao ‘Islamic Human Rights Commission’:

1) Female activists in Iran scored a rare but significant victory this week when parliament decided to shelve legislation that they said would have reduced the rights of women in marriage. The legislation set aside Monday, titled The Family Protection Bill, would have allowed husbands to get religiously sanctioned “temporary” marriages or take additional wives without the consent of their first spouses. Temporary marriages, called sigheh in Persian, are religiously sanctioned unions that can last as long as a lifetime or be as short as 30 minutes. They traditionally have been popular with male travelers or seminary students who find themselves far from their wives for long periods. (Los Angeles Times)

Iran has sentenced four women’s rights activists to six months in jail over articles written on feminist websites, the Korgozaran newspaper reported on Wednesday. The four are active members of an initiative that seeks to change Iran’s Sharia-based laws for women by collecting one million signatures. (AFP)

We’ll try to follow this up…

I think what is left out of this explanation is the capacity for politicos, of all shades, to rationalise the unpalatable.

Such an unsavoury habit is more noticeable on the Left, being so strident about what is or isn’t acceptable, only to turn that on its head when the political climate suits it (eg. downplay/dropping of women and gay rights) or there is an overarching justification, as in this case, “anti-imperialism” seems to be used to excuse associating with decidedly rightwing individuals, who are certainly not socially progressive.

So that rationalisation allows the politico who do almost anything, which probably explains why they are so distrusted in the wider world.

We shouldn’t forget that Western leaders often used a similar line of thinking. from the 1950s-1980s, to justify sucking up to nasty dictatorships, as long as they were “anti-Communist”, never mind the death squads, no human rights, mass corruption or constant abuses that overarching rationalisation served its purpose.

Yes, that’s absolutely true.

Although I think that Les Levidow will genuinely believe - even in the face of the evidence - that he’s not sharing a platform with a racist party at an event organised by Khomeinists.

He’ll turn up at the march, see the placards of Khomeini, hear the chants, read the literature and think:

“Yes, but they don’t really MEAN why they say. On a true class analysis, what they actually are saying is…”

Socialism has long been a discredited ideology - which just goes to show you must be mentally ill to still subsribe to it.

Les Levidow is not an anti racist. He’s either a selective pro-racist, or neutral to racism

Well, that’s told him.

Yes, but he’ll still speak at a rally organised by the proxies of the Iranian regime, alongside a party which wants to institute a repressive theocracy, and which actively promotes racism to its followers.

And he couldn’t give a toss.

Socialism has long been a discredited ideology - which just goes to show you must be mentally ill to still subsribe to it.

Now, now, koppers. To some here, you remind them of their misspent youth. While us sensible folk were taking drugs and chasing skirt, others were attending SWP meetings and selling newspapers on rainy street corners.

Perhaps Les could ask his exotic chums if they’ve still got the revolutionary black banner they used in 1994 (I think it was), the one that said (in English) “Death To The Enemies Of Islam” in huge letters, draped over the bit with the lions on it.

Quds (ie Jerusalem) Day was called by Ayatollah Khomeini following the Iranian Revolution. I do not know if this was before or after the slaughter of Iranian leftists, perhaps Les can check.

Demonstrations are held annually throughout the world, on the last Friday of Ramadan and demand Jerusalem’s ‘liberation’ and Zionism’s destruction. (Does Les have any Zionist relatives? Could he get them safe passes?)

MCB etc may sign support for it, but this is essentially the Khomeinists annual day out through Central London. To be fair, however, its only the Lebanese and Iranian ones that include the guys in black ski-masks abseiling with machine guns. (Weird homage to SAS in Iran Enbassy siege?, again, perhaps Les could ask.)

A thorough analysis of Quds Day, including London, may be found here:

http://www.gegen-al-quds-tag.de/Material%20und%20Brosch%FCre/againstalqudsday3.pdf

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/9317

Here’s Peter Tatchell’s account of last year’s Al-Quds Day March.

“”As soon as I turned up, I was subjected to a barrage of violent,
threatening abuse from large sections of the crowd. Some started
chanting: ‘Tatchell is a Zionist, Tatchell is a paedophile. Get out!
Get out! Get out!’ …. Following at the back of the march, we were subjected to a torrent of hatred all the way from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square. A few of the Al Quds marchers shouted things like: ‘You are all Zionists and CIA agents. How much money did Bush pay you to come here today?’ These people are paranoid and delusional. On six occasions, some of the protesters tried to physically attack me and the Workers’ Liberty activists. It was only police intervention that stopped them from battering us. These Islamists claim to represent true Islam, but in my view they behaved in a most un-Islamic and unreligious way. They preach a gospel of hatred and violence against Jews, gay people and even other Muslims who disagree with their fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. I am sure most Muslims in Britain would be horrified by their justification of violent extremism.”

Slightly off subject but…

Green Left responds to a motion on antisemitism with an anti-Zionist fringe advertised with an antisemitic cartoon:
http://greensstoptheboycott.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/green-left-responds-to-a-motion-on-antisemitism-with-an-anti-zionist-fringe-advertised-with-an-antisemitic-cartoon/

David T: Les Levidow is not an anti racist. He’s either a selective pro-racist, or neutral to racism

Benji: Well, that’s told him.

It’s sad when the most incisive comment in a thread is by Benjamin!

Look, I know you folk here are very fond of categories, but is Les Levidow actually a “trot” (or is “trot” simply a generic term of abuse now with little meaningful definition?)

I suppose “trotscum” is fairly obviously an insult by ‘trundlemaster’ above, “scum” being a favourite term used by people engaging in sophisticated political discussion.

While us sensible folk were taking drugs and chasing skirt, others were attending SWP meetings and selling newspapers on rainy street corners.

I have spent my adulthood defending Galloway, the SWP, and racist cranks.

I am Benjamin Mackie.

Now, now, koppers. To some here, you remind them of their misspent youth. While us sensible folk were taking drugs and chasing skirt, others were attending SWP meetings and selling newspapers on rainy street corners.

Lol, actually Benjamin both those lifestyles applied to me - well apart from the meetings and the rainy street corners. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly (and there is some doubt because of the drugs) I thought that coming across as a radical would bring me more success with the wimmin.

Come on - everybody knows that revolutionary socialist politics is the only way that people who are not blessed with good looks get to have sex.

Benjamin said: “I suppose “trotscum” is fairly obviously an insult by ‘trundlemaster’ above, “scum” being a favourite term used by people engaging in sophisticated political discussion.”

Yes trotscum is an insult but I use it becuase I’ve had bad experiences with Trot groups of various types most notably the SWP.

I don’t normally categorise people as scum and it isn’t normally a phrase for sophisticated political discourse but if you have ever tried to have a sophisticated political debate witha brainwashed swappie or similar group you would be able to see why I refer to them in a derogatory manner. Fashscum/Trotscum are both two sides of the same coin. Both groupiings are deeply unpleasant and anti democratic and should be treated in a similar manner to the sort of stuff you scrape off your boots after a hard days cross country running through Cattle fields.

Not all trots are SWP.

David T said: ‘Not all trots are swp’

I agree there its just I’ve had personally more of my negative trot based experiences with the swp.

Decents always have stupid terms for people.

“By this test, you could make a very good case for big chunks of the Bible being the work of self-hating Jews.”

I don’t think that you could make such a case.

Yes sadly there has been and is, far to much sectarian bickering amongst Jews. But there is a quite a difference between Jews trying to reprove other Jews for behaving improperly, or for undermining their role and purpose as Jews, (this reproof being the sort expounded by G-d and the Prophets in the Bible), and Jews who adopt the hatred and lies of Non-Jews in a bid to be liked by them, or in a bid to be faithful to the Non-Jewish ideologies they adhere too.

As it seems to be the way, that all Jews are held responsible for the behaviour of individual Jews, Socialists and many other lefty Jews are embarrassed by the behaviour of their fellow Jews (espicialy the sort in Israel). Not because this behaviour is in itself wrong, but because the received wisdom in these left wing circles declares that it is wrong, and heaven forbid, that these left wing Jews might be looked down upon by their comrades!

Self hating Jews don’t want to better the Jewish nation, or bring them back to their true purpose, as the Prophets of Israel did, their motivation is culled from outside their Jewish heritage.

Jews trying to reprove other Jews for behaving improperly, or for undermining their role and purpose as Jews

Actually this is exactly what most contemporary anti-Zionist Jews think they are doing, whether from the left or Naturei Karta-type positions.

You are right about the embarrassment factor though, especially for the IJV-types, and the absorption of antisemitic myths about Jewish power. This is why they claim to be persecuted and stifled by communal leadership, rather than facing up to the fact that most Jews simply don’t agree with them.

I think that the problem that Judaism has, as a religion, is that it postulates a coveant between Jews and God. God specifically promises the Jews that they’ll get various good things (including Israel) if they are faithful to the Covenant.

This works extremely well, as long as everything goes well for the Jews.

However, as the Bible is written progressively, during the rise and fall of various Jewish kingdoms, during which really dismal things happen (the Temple gets destroyed, Jews get beaten by their enemies, Jews get sold off into slavery, etc). And so there has to be an explanation.

The explanation could be “Oh dear, we got it wrong. God doesn’t actually have a special covenant with Jews at all. He favours our enemies”. Or “God actually doesn’t exist and we’ve made a terrible mistake worshiping him”. Anybody who comes to this conclusion will convert to another religion or become an athiest.

But the explanation that, by its nature, became part of Jewish theology, is that God punishes Jews in all these awful ways, because they break his covenant with them. They are stubborn and stiff necked. They commit all sorts of terrible sins. And so, of course, they are deservedly punished.

Incidentally, if you read the Quran, you’ll see that Jews are defamed again and again: but in pretty much identical terms to the way that Jews are chastised in the Bible.

There are lots of people who like beloning to religions which tell them that they’re sinful, disgraceful, and deserve punishment. Judaism isn’t the only one which promises this to its adherents.

Jews in far left political parties are utterly preoccupied by the wickneness of other Jews, to the exclusion of basically any other consideration. This should be no surprise. They’re drawing on a rich scriptual and cultural heritage of blaming other Jews for incurring God’s wrath. Tony Greenstein’s father is a rabbi. There’s some other Greenstein-like chick in Germany who accuses Jews of being Nazis whose dad was also the chief Rabbi of Germany or something like that. This should be no surprise. These are people whose are utterly steeped in a religious tradition of blaming Jews for things that go wrong.

If Jews who like blaming other Jews for the world’s ills manage to persuade other people to continue to regard them as part of the big Jewish family, they are sometimes treated as prophets. If they are treated as outcasts, then they sometimes manage to found a new religion.

“Actually this is exactly what most contemporary anti-Zionist Jews think they are doing, whether from the left or Naturei Karta-type positions.”

I agree this is the justification that they give themselves, but it is shown to be a lie, by their association with Anti-Semites. Neturei Karta, have let their hatred of Zionism blind their eyes. I too oppose Zionism (the ideology) while supporting Israel’s right to defend itself, due to my Orthodox beliefs. But there is nothing, nothing at all, from a religious point of view, that justifies cuddling up to the sort of people Neturie Karta seem to befriend. Even the Satmar Rebbe, a staunch and passionate opposer to Israel and Zionism, declared, when being invited to meet with Yasser Arafat, that he would never shake the hand of a murderer! Neturei Karta on the other hand, couldn’t wait for the photo-op.

And Neturei Karta’s motivation is further revealed, by their attacks on Israel, very often being of a secular nature, for example “Israel oppresses Palestinians”,”Israel commits genocide”, “Gaza is like the Warsaw Ghetto”, “Israel stirs up Anti-Semitism on purpose”, all the arguments of their Non-Jewish secular fellow passengers. Religious opposition to Zionism, is exactly that, religious, a theological argument based on the spiritual purpose for the Jewish nation.

Your point about the IJV types, is very well made, it gets very very tiring hearing the “we are being stifled” line. Seems to me, they never stop expressing their “independent voices”. I also find it very sad, that the members of groups like IJV, only remember they are Jewish, when it comes to criticising Jews, while the rest of the time, there is nothing identifiably Jewish about them.

As Dave Rich says: it is notable that anti-Zionist Jews routinely talk about what they’re doing as part of their religious, or cultural, or political identity as Jews.

Some of they dress it up in biblical concepts. Others just pepper their arguments with Yiddish words. They pretty much always preface what they’re doing with the phrase “Speaking as a Jew…”

It is pretty rare that these guys speak as members or one or other obscure Communist sect. They set up organisations for themselves, which contain the words “Jew” or “Jewish”.

These are people who desperately want to be recognised as Jewish by other people. Their politics is a huge quest for identity and belonging. Some are religious Jews but most are Communists: but still they’re completely obsessed with their identities.

Neturei Karta clearly think you’re a very bad Jew indeed, and that pretty much anything is justifed in order to stop not-sufficiently-anti-Zionist Jews like you from committing the ultimate blasphemy of allowing a secular democratic Israeli state to exist.

What they think you should be doing is making sure that you say the Shema and Amidah, and put on tefilin and wear tsisit and so on, for long enough to ensure that the Messianic Era dawns.

Whereupon, no doubt, they’d expect God to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque, rebuild the Temple, smite the Palestinians mightily, and basically kill all the enemies of the Jews, like what God does in the Bible.

(You mustn’t tell the Iranians who are running the Al Quds Day this, though, because it would upset them)

David T,

I think you are only partially right.

Those of us who are deeply identified with our religion, do of course, understand the concept of G-d’s punishment. But I think you over simplify.

Traditionally, Judaism recognises the supreme concept of free will. Those who have persecuted us, are fully responsible for their actions.

Also, not all the tragedy that occurs to us collectively or individually is explained in terms of punishment, but can have many other origins. (For a deeper look at this concept please look at the Chief Rabbi’s book “To heal a fractured world” the section that discusses the book of Job).

I agree that we do look inwardly when disaster strikes our nation, and try to better ourselves and strengthen the bond between us and G-d.

But I see this as a strength, we don’t get caught up in endless revenge and animosity with the nations, but instead focus on improvement.

“Neturei Karta clearly think you’re a very bad Jew indeed, and that pretty much anything is justifed in order to stop not-sufficiently-anti-Zionist Jews like you from committing the ultimate blasphemy of allowing a secular democratic Israeli state to exist.”

Your right Dave, they do.

“Les Levidow is one of those cases of that intriguing masochism pathology called “jüdische Selbsthaß”.

Chomsky is the godfather of these holier-than-thou Jewish leftwingers.

They would probably have apologised for Adolf H. himself.”

Another one is the ghastly Rose from the Open University. He is as lunatic as Chomsky. In fact, compare his ranting style with some of those well-known Nuremberg clips …

“That is very different from people like Greenstein et al, who are essentially sectarian Jews: another long standing Jewish tradition. They do not hate Jews. They simply put most of their energy into fighting Jews who are not members of their particular sect”

True enough, but doesn’t explain the extreme position of Jews who fight against Jews as a whole having the same right to self-determination as anyone else.

“I too oppose Zionism (the ideology) while supporting Israel’s right to defend itself”

In that case, you have a bizarre definition of Zionism (which essentially means ‘Israel’s right, as the Jewish homeland, to defend itself’).

These guys aren’t really into self-determination generally. They’re just focussed on themselves and other Jews.

I do seriously wonder if the Islamists realise precisely what Naturei Karta is praying for God to do to them and their Mosque. Because if they found out, they’d be hugely pissed off.

Ditto, of course, the communists they chum up with!

David T, you seem to have spent too long hanging out with Atzmon:

“As Dave Rich says: it is notable that anti-Zionist Jews routinely talk about what they’re doing as part of their religious, or cultural, or political identity as Jews.

Some of they dress it up in biblical concepts. Others just pepper their arguments with Yiddish words. They pretty much always preface what they’re doing with the phrase “Speaking as a Jew…”

It is pretty rare that these guys speak as members or one or other obscure Communist sect. They set up organisations for themselves, which contain the words “Jew” or “Jewish”.

These are people who desperately want to be recognised as Jewish by other people. Their politics is a huge quest for identity and belonging. Some are religious Jews but most are Communists: but still they’re completely obsessed with their identities”

“In that case, you have a bizarre definition of Zionism (which essentially means ‘Israel’s right, as the Jewish homeland, to defend itself’).”

I define Zionism as the idea that a Jewish state, is of central importance to Jewish identity and that a sovereighn state is a goal in itself, that a state, is an ideal.

A state, or sovereingty is a means to an end, a tool to help us obseve the Torah. Any state or communal body, that does not have the Torah as it’s central defining element, does not and can not legitimatly represent Jews.

I attribute no religious significance to the State of Israel at all, and view it’s conduct as I would view the conduct of any other state. It has a right to exist and defend itself, for exactly the same political reasons as the UK has a right to exist and defend itself. I support Greece’s right to exist and defend itself, that doesn’t make me a Greek nationalist. I support the State of Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, that doesn’t make me a Zionist.

A little OT, but in terms of Al Quds Day, the wacky, but thankfully non-violent, Jewish proto-theocratic, Jerusalem-based Temple Institute reports that it has acquired a copy of the official 1925 Supreme Moslem Council of Jerusalem (Waqf authority) Guide Book to Al-Haram Al-Sharif (the Moslem name for the Temple Mount) in which it is proudly asserted that Al- Haram Al Sharif is in fact the site of Solomon’s Temple.

On page 4, the Waqf states, “Its identity with the site of Solomon’s Temple is beyond dispute. This, too, is the spot, according to universal belief, on which ‘David built there an altar unto the L-rd…’, citing the source in 2 Samuel XXIV,25.

In addition, on page 16, the pamphlet makes reference to the underground area in the south-east corner of the Mount, which is refers to as Solomon’s Stables. “Little is known for certain of the history of the chamber itself,“the guide reads. “It dates probably as far back as the construction of Solomon’s Temple. According to Josephus, it was in existence and was used as a place of refuge by the Jews at the time of the conquest of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 A.D.”

The pamphlet which was published in English by the Fransiscan Printing Press, Jerusalem can be downloaded as a pdf file here

What makes this pamphlet significant is that it demonstrates that contemporary claims that there never was any Jewish connection to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram Al-Sharif -and by extension to Jerusalem- emanating from Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, from the chief Moslem cleric of the Palestinian Authority, Mufti Ikrama Sabri, from Islamic Movement chief Raed Salah, as well as from Khomeinist Al Quds Day organizers stand in direct opposition to the historic depiction of the site by the 1925 Jerusalem Waqf Council who clearly saw nothing controversial or anti-Islamic about recognizing the site as that of the former Jewish Temple (Bayt Al-Maqdis).

“I do seriously wonder if the Islamists realise precisely what Naturei Karta is praying for God to do to them and their Mosque. Because if they found out, they’d be hugely pissed off.”

I can’t remember where I read it, but I did come across an article written by Islamists, who said that Neturei Karta were evil Jews, and that Muslims should have nothing to do with them.

Secondly I don’t think that they would be annoyed, after all Islamists join forces with lefties, despite their support for gay rights, women’s rights and secularism. I believe they operate on the basis of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” (as do Neturei Karta).

JohnG

People who are wrong about pretty much everything can be right about one or two things. Look at Marx, for example. Or you, occasionally.

Atzmon’s thesis goes a bit beyond suggesting that the JFJFJFPAZOG-gers are engaged in a sort of Jewish identity politics. Of course they are. You’d have to be blind to miss that.

What Atzmon goes on to argue is that Jewish Power, by which he defines any Jewish cultural identity, is itself Jewish Supremacism, and is a form of Zionism which oppreses not just Palestinians but the whole world. This is why Atzmon calls himself an “ex-Jew” and says that it is rational to want to “burn down a synagogue”.

You know this all already, because the SWP, in which you are an activist, promoted Atzmon, defended him against objectors (including your comrade Michael Rosen), and gave him a platform year after year.

YossiUK

Yes, that’s pretty much what I think too, apart from the bits about God; which are neither here nor there to me, but I accept matter lots to you.

“Secondly I don’t think that they would be annoyed, after all Islamists join forces with lefties, despite their support for gay rights, women’s rights and secularism. I believe they operate on the basis of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” (as do Neturei Karta).”

Oh of course they do. As did the SWP, who formed a political party, RESPECT, which was an alliance with an Islamist political party. Unfortunately, it has all ended badly for them. The Islamists have chucked the SWP out of RESPECT. Pretty much all the SWP’s councillors have joined the Labour Party or, in some cases, the Tory Party. And the SWP has been pretty significantly damaged, if not utterly destroyed.

So, on balance, allying with Islamists was a stupid thing for the SWP to have done.

JohnG?

I should say that - unlike Atzmon - I don’t think that these communist Jews should be regarded as secret Zionists, enforcing a Jewish Power agenda. I do think they’re idiots, though.

It is particularly ironic that they’re now being knifed by Atzmon, whose analysis differs from theirs, only to the extent that he regards all Jews (apart from the Naturei Karta) as utterly evil, and the source of all the wickedness in the world: instead of just most of them.

It is also a little bit tragic that having put so much energy into working with the SWP and the PSC, they now find that so many of their their old mates have sided with Atzmon. Probably because he is famous (with jazz lovers at least) and they’re not.

And when they say “Atzmon is an anti-semite”, the response is “oh, you’re throwing around accusations of anti-semitism to shut down debate you ZIONISTS”.

Ho ho.

Being an ex-Jew doesn’t help Gilad Atzmon one bit.

I had an interesting conversation recently with somebody who is a friend of Reem Kelani.

Reem Kelani is the Palestinian (or Mancunian-Kuwaiti) singer who appears on Atzmon’s award winning album “Exile”.

Basically, she now utterly loathes Atzmon, for taking her Palestinian music, and using it in his album. I was told that she regards Atzmon as doing to her people’s music, what his people have done to her country: i.e. “occupying” and appropriating it.

Nice one Gilad!

“Oh of course they do. As did the SWP, who formed a political party, RESPECT, which was an alliance with an Islamist political party”

Thats news to me David T. Any evidence for this? I’ll hold off judgement on whether comrades who describe themselves as Jewish socialists are engaged in ‘identity politics’ and merely remark that there is nothing inherently wrong with Jews being socialists or identifying themselves as Jewish socialists, something which seems to produce a strange alliance between those most hostile to criticism of Israel and those flirting with anti-semitic ideologies. I happen to disagee with Atzmon on this and many other things. I thought it was worth the SWP arguing with him about his dodgy politics though, others thought this was a bad call. My suspician is that the whole controversy will die down when he gives up voicing his increasingly strange political views and, as his blog seems to suggest, joins his family in their regular holidays to Israel which seem to have made him understandably nostalgic. Its always been my belief that those who protest too loudly about identity politics are probably deeply involved in their own variant, and this always seemed true of Atzmon to me. But what do I know? I never had the pleasure of meeting him or going out for drinks with the man.

A state, or sovereingty is a means to an end, a tool to help us obseve the Torah. Any state or communal body, that does not have the Torah as it’s central defining element, does not and can not legitimatly represent Jews.

I wonder if this theocrat will ever understand that while he is safe to espouse his views, no matter how wacky, in a democracy, in a theocracy - that he and very few others believe is “legitimate” - freedom of conscience has no guarantee of any protection whatsoever from those who deem themselves authoritative enough to prescribe for the rest of us what exactly is meant by a state “with the Torah as its central defining element”.

David T,

don’t waste your breath, SWPers would even try to deny gravity, if they were told to

so you’re not going to get them to admit that they formed ANY form of alliance, formal, informal, whatever with Islamists, despite all of the evidence to the contrary (see SU when Respect belew up), Cairo conferences not with standing…

and for Atzmon, Andy Newman summed it up rather well:

“162. Michael

Comment by Andy Newman — 29 August, 2008 @ 4:30 pm”

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2766#comments

Yossiuk:

I can’t remember where I read it, but I did come across an article written by Islamists, who said that Neturei Karta were evil Jews, and that Muslims should have nothing to do with them.

Why because they are Jews per se?

“I wonder if this theocrat will ever understand that while he is safe to espouse his views, no matter how wacky, in a democracy, in a theocracy - that he and very few others believe is “legitimate” - freedom of conscience has no guarantee of any protection whatsoever from those who deem themselves authoritative enough to prescribe for the rest of us what exactly is meant by a state “with the Torah as its central defining element”.

Well there is no need for you to worry. As I believe that the state with the Torah as it’s central defining element, will only come about with the arrival of the Moshiach, at a time, when the all the world will recognise their Creator (events I am sure you, due to your not having wacky views, do not believe will occur). Until that time, may it come soon, I believe democracy is the only system that should be supported, as it is like you say, the only system that protects our freedoms.

JohnG

“Thats news to me David T. Any evidence for this?”

I correspond with people engaged in the faction fight within RESPECT. They’re pretty open about the fact that the faction that sided with Galloway are the Jamaat-e-Islami contingent. I think your party called them, euphemistically, ‘businessmen’. But we all know what you mean.

“I happen to disagee with Atzmon on this and many other things.”

Could you be a bit clearer about what bits of Atzmon you disagree with? Would you, for example, justify burning down a synagogue?

“I thought it was worth the SWP arguing with him about his dodgy politics though, others thought this was a bad call.”

Arguing with him?

You didn’t argue with him. You got him to play fundraisers for your party!

“Its always been my belief that those who protest too loudly about identity politics are probably deeply involved in their own variant, and this always seemed true of Atzmon to me.”

Well, you’re right there.

“… joins his family in their regular holidays to Israel which seem to have made him understandably nostalgic.”

I dunno what will happen to him. I don’t think he believes in God, but I think he’s quite impressed by people who do. If he has a Damascene moment, then he might flip. My money is on him joining the Russian Orthodox Church, as his neo Nazi and role model, “Israel Shamir” has done. But I suppose he might one day become some form of Haredi.

My impression of Gilad Atzmon is that he is deeply deeply fucked up. I quite liked him, and felt a bit sorry for him. I wonder if he did something awful when he was in the army, and this is some sort of atonement for him.

In any case, what he says or does would probably of pretty marginal importance: had he not been picked up and promoted as a political thinker by the SWP.

It is funny, though. Obviously, I still think the SWP is a pernicious organisation, whose influence is utterly malign. But I’ve vaguely softened towards Gilad Atzmon because he’s so obviously damaged.

I’ve also softened towards Galloway: not just because he helped to destroy the SWP, but because he seems to have done it in order to further the three things that matter most to him in the world: fame, making money, and impressing da laydees.

It would be wonderful if Islamists had not understood Neturei Karta’s theology and imploded when they did.

Well I too think the Islamists don’t care, whatever they know. Such a valuable and visible token to brandish, NK are, as the freaks spread their “we are all Hezbollah” poison on al Quds day in London.

It really is a gross spectacle.

Supported, of course, by the MCB, “Respect” and the “Stop the War Coalition”.

Sickening.

Well there is no need for you to worry. As I believe that the state with the Torah as it’s central defining element, will only come about with the arrival of the Moshiach, at a time, when the all the world will recognise their Creator (events I am sure you, due to your not having wacky views, do not believe will occur).

Great. No problems then, that is as long as we can stand against those -if any- who may think it possible to hasten the arrival of moshiach through some irrational violent act.

The only problem with Messianism is that it tends to produce sects of people who reckon he has come.

People who are waiting, though, are perfectly nice.

“Great. No problems then, that is as long as we can stand against those -if any- who may think it possible to hasten the arrival of moshiach through some irrational violent act.”

Absolutely, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you, in trying to prevent anyone thinking they can hasten his arrival through irrational violent acts.

“People who are waiting, though, are perfectly nice.”

Well thank you David T, I do try to be nice :-)

Islam, as the last big player in the Abrahamic market, has lots of chutzpah.

“Hastening the arrival” is what any Qur’an reader could be forgiven for trying to help happen.

Mind the injunctions, so many, to leave the matter of sinners, so grave, and cosmic timing, no business of humans, to Allah. Then quiet can be holy.

Read as a bigoted and angry man, and quiet itself is a sin.

Gee, thanks, Allah, for the test, I guess.

*

From the Damnation Olympics, one of the Christian Qur’an laps:

“Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

*

Oh dear.

Happy Ramadan, HP.

when discussing racism with johng, keep in mind he was running interference for jenna delich during the whole david duke fiasco.

As for the “revolutionary socialists” so often discussed on this blog, they are people who celebrate “comrade Fidel”, a murderous dictator, and chant “we are all Hezbollah”.

Now they are supporting “al Quds Day” in London, a parade of racist hatred, once again.

This is despicable. Any anti-racist democrat working with their campaigns is a fool at best.

“when discussing racism with johng, keep in mind he was running interference for jenna delich during the whole david duke fiasco.”

Him, theIrie and Benjamin.