Harry's Place

Well, I’m certainly not a supporter of Palin but I don’t think this is a big deal. The chap is not my cup of tea, but if she wants to do that laying on hands thing I don’t see it as a tremendously bad thing.

In a more general sense her more fundamentalist Christian views could be a problem (potentially), but that may be a broader problem in the US as quite a few folk believe like that. However, folk have a right to pursue their beliefs; the problem arises when it gets mixed up with politics too much.

But I don’t find this particular incident untoward.

How many economies do you think the Isaraelites are running Benjamin.(excluding Israel)

Tim, was Sarah Palin married by this minister? Has he been her minister for the last 20 years? Were her kids baptized by this minister? Has this minister praised David Duke or other racists?
Did this minister after 9-11 proclaim God Da-m America from the pulpit? Did this minister say that 9/11 was God’s Punishment on America? If the answer to all these questions are Yes then this nutty preacher is the white equivalent of Obama’s former minister of 20 years, wrong Rev. Wright. Otherwise it is extemely hypocritical to take Sarah Palin to task for getting support from this clown while supporting Obama. (And I say this as an Obama supporter.)

“If the answer to all these questions are Yes then this nutty preacher is the white equivalent”

I really don’t know what to say to that.

Had they just had an old testament reading about the Israelites prevailing because of their righteousness? You get that sort of thing in churches it seems.

Desperate.

Tim

I am not saying I agree with his views – but I am not saying Palin does either. I just generally accept that American folk are a bit more overtly religious than in my culture; folk have a right to pursue their beliefs, which is what she is doing in the clip. This video does not alarm me. If you were to question Palin’s views on abortion and other public policies (which may be religious based views) then I would be with you.

However, like Obama going to see Wright, I don’t view this as a big deal. There are just some slightly odd preachers knocking about. It doesn’t mean all the folk going to their churches believe every word they say.

Gene is still outsourcing his mania.

By all means let’s have a frank discussion of candidates’ churches.

The point here I think, is that the sheer destructive genius of McCains choice of Palin nullifies his own strongest cards.
A campaign based on experience,with Jeremiah Wright as its trump card then chooses Palin and negates both at once.

Really, tim? The inevitable McCain advertisement starring Reverend Jeremiah Wright is going to be answered with…..this?

Mesquito,

Do you think McCain made a wise choice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv6CRObROV0

It’s obvious that this is tim’s piss-poor attempt at portraying Palin’s preacher as an anti-Semite.

Tim

That is true. It certainly say’s nothing for McCain’s choice. Moreover, the religious right criticising Obama over Wright are certainly on a sticky wicket. I’m a moderate athiest – I wish politicians in America, including Obama, were a bit less religious.

The inevitable McCain advertisement starring Reverend Jeremiah Wright is going to be answered with…..this?

No, but the general point is correct. Best just to keep religion out of it – the religious right has skeletons in its closet too.

Actually, I don’t think McCain will directly make an issue of Wright – not unless he gets very, very desperate.

That clip is almost painful to watch, Tim. It’s not like Couric is like some sort of rottweiler either.

I’m sure this is taken out of context. Perhaps he’s a masseur.

new low for tim.

Is this some kind of twisted joke? timmy deputising for Gene while he’s away?

If you want to discuss associations with anti-semite preachers, here’s the real deal:
Louis Farrakhan – Jeremiah Wright – Barack Obama.

It’s important not to just make a joke about the witchcraft thing. Muthee actually hunts down people he accuses of witchcraft. In Kiambu, Kenya, he incited a violent mob to go after a woman and threaten her with stoning, so that she fled town in fear of her life.

Thomas Muthee at best contributes to an anti-witch hysteria that kills thousands. In the areas where he has his churches, children are accused of witchcraft, and preachers get paid money to perform “exorcisms” where children are burned, splashed with bleach, tortured in many other ways, often killed, then abandoned on the streets to fend for themselves. In May, in an area where Muthee has one of his churches, eleven people between the ages of 80 and 100 were killed one by one by an angry anti-witch mob – some of them burned alive.

Thomas Muthee would be a comical character, if he weren’t so truly sadistic.

And guess what? The Wasilla Assembly of God is Thomas Muthee’s principal financial backer. The Wasilla Assembly of God church community has been shown a video called “Transformations” – which mentions Muthee’s hunts against women he calls witches. So, Palin cannot plausibly plead ignorance.

Muthee is calling for an “infiltration” of the government by theocratic Christians from this Church that claims to have modern-day prophets who know the will of God, including how God will use the U.S. government for a divine purpose that will end in a holy war of Armageddon. Sarah Palin says that public policies she works on, like a fossil fuel pipeline, are part of God’s will – and her church teaches that the natural resources of Alaska will be used to make Alaska a place of refuge for the Holy during Armageddon. Sarah Palin says that the war in Iraq is a task from God.

And there’s more, and more, and more… This stuff is serious. Don’t get fixated on the idea that the witchcraft comments are just funny and can be laughed off. Underneath Muthee’s kooky statements about crushing the “python spirits” of witchcraft, there is a truly frightening agenda of which Sarah Palin is a knowing part.

Muthee is a self proclaimed witch hunter, how much witch hunting is maybe dubious but witch hunting in Kenya can be nasty stuff.

It’s amassing that American churches in the 21 century are willing to be associated with witch hunting.

Mob burns to death 11 Kenyan “witches”
Kisii district residents confirmed the killings, saying an enraged crowd had gone house-to-house on Tuesday night, using a list of supposed witches in the region.
“They burned them alive in their homes,” one resident said, asking not to be named.

In countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran it’s taken care of in a more orderly way then there is death penalty for witches in the legislation, Saudi have it’s Vice Squad – Mutaween – that hunt witches.

Re Jeremiah Wright compared to Muthee:

Last March Obama delivered a speech in which he not only denounced Wright’s hateful comments, he explained in some detail why his former pastor was wrong. Later he broke completely with Wright and quit the church where he had been pastor. Maybe it was too little too late, but he did it.

I hope at some point Palin will have a similar opportunity to express in detail her disagreements (if any) with Muthee about Jews, witchcraft or other matters, and to explain why– after what he said– she allowed him to publicly bless her.

We’ve had Salem and we’ve had McCarthy, we’ll deal with the acolytes of Muthee. Flooding the Department of Justice with graduates of Christianist law schools is a bigger problem than Muthee.

Bizarre.

Later he broke completely with Wright and quit the church where he had been pastor.

-only after Wright went on his talking tour culminating in his visit to the National Press Club where he basically called Obama out for being a phoney.

Has Muthee actually said anything derogatory about Jews? Financial prowess is considered admirable, is it not?

As far as witches go, Christians by and large (wrongly) associate all forms of witchcraft with Satan worship. Big surprise Christians don’t welcome witches with open arms and smoochies.

Underneath Muthee’s kooky statements about crushing the “python spirits” of witchcraft, there is a truly frightening agenda of which Sarah Palin is a knowing part

The extreme Christian right has to be defeated because ultimately they are the enemies of freedom. However I just don’t think there is great deal in the Muthee thing as a weapon against Palin, although yes, its just another reason not to vote for her.

Boogski, Christians, at least some of them, may consider witches to be followers of Satan. However in the 21st Century, that does not give them the right to stirr up vigilante mobs against them.

The extreme Christian right has to be defeated because ultimately they are the enemies of freedom. However I just don’t think there is great deal in the Muthee thing as a weapon against Palin, although yes, its just another reason not to vote for her.

No big deal, really. Muthee has only a few witches stoned, one at time. It can’t really be compared with supporting suicide bomber that kill a couple dozen at a time. And that’s never anything to get upset about. Tempest in a teacup. Lie down and have an asprin old boy, right?

Note, having read what has been posted about Muthee’s witch hunting acitivites including that he may have been at least indirectly responsible for the death of one such accused witch in Kenya, I have to say he is definitely worse then Reverend Wright who never stirred up violence however hateful he might have spoken.

Yes, having read more about the witch hunting malarkey it does seem a tad worse than I originally suspected – but still probably not a potent weapon against Palin, apart from on a viral basis I guess. Not sure how well the viral stuff works though.

say what you want about obama, he’s not a creationist lilke Wilma Palin and by the way, he dissociated himself from Rev. Wright.

No Josh. Clearly the witch hunting stuff is very rum indeed.

However, the advantage Palin has is that she is just so obviously out of her depth in so many ways that this story feels more bizarre than anything else at first glance. She is difficult to take seriously. Some of the other stuff Muthee says about Hollywood and schooling etc is pretty standard religious right fare.

It’s worrying in the sense that it does not respect the separation of church and state (clearly if these guys took over the government they would institute some sort of theocracy). However that’s a general issue, Palin is such a minor figure in all that.

The fact that she’s in the VP slot says little about her – she will not stay very long in the VP position even if the Reps win; however, it does indicate the power of the religious, conservative base in the Rep party, which is a more serious issue.

What I would love to know is McCain’s real feelings about her. That will come out eventually, I suspect.

Extremely unlikely that Muthee is responsible for the deaths of the 11 witches who were burnt to death – they were attacked in western Kenya, while his ministry operates in central Kenya. (See the BBC story.) Nonetheless, he did lead a crazed witch-hunt which left a woman in dire peril – which is a lot more than Jeremiah Wright managed…(And let’s not go into the sermon at her church, which, apparently, she attended, during which it was suggested that Jews suffer terrorism because of their rejection of Christ.)

Watching avowed secularists defend genuinely toxic forms of religion has been one of the (few) pleasures of this whole election thingy.

(And let’s not go into the sermon at her church, which, apparently, she attended, during which it was suggested that Jews suffer terrorism because of their rejection of Christ.)

Well according to the Old Testament, the Hebrews suffered a helluva lot worse due to their rejection of God. So really, what’s the fucking difference?

McCain’s genuine friendship with Joe Lieberman would indicate against his affinity with the religious right. I don’t think McCain sees Lieberman in terms of being convertible or potential fuel for the rapture.

McCain is however steadfastly against women’s right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy. But then, so are some Dems.

she will not stay very long in the VP position even if the Reps win

I don’t see what makes you say that. George Bush was reelected. This talk of VP picks dropping out because they are gaffe prone never actually happens. American politics isn’t like the British game.

I doubt McCain will ever say a word against her since it will reflect badly on him. But everyone knows his positions. That’s why most Republicans are wary of him.

I was under the impression she left the Assembly of God some 6-8 years ago because it was extreme? I remember my parents leaving an Assembly of God church for the same reason back in the middle 90s.

As far as I know she is not currently part of the church but she does go back to visit.

It’s really uncanny how many things Obama and Palin have in common.

I was under the impression she left the Assembly of God some 6-8 years ago because it was extreme?

I too saw that. They went this old church to find if anyone had seen her speak in tongues – which some do – but nobody said they saw her do it.

Palin has completely lost her confidence in the past week. Maybe it was the Saturday night live thing that did it, turning her all introspective. She’s coming across like a bumbling fool. At least in the Charlie Gibson interview she sounded a bit tough. Even that seems to have gone.

Meanwhile, a Republican insurgency on the hill has derailed the bailout plan. Apparently they’re not listening to anybody – not even Bush or McCain – and are behaving like they’re whacked out on speed and crack.

If they don’t come to their senses and agree to get a deal by tomorrow afternoon then the markets are gonna tank something crazy.

Mike, I agree she seems stressed and rattled.

I think the constant media attacks have gotten to her. That and I doubt she knows how to be a team player. She seems to being used to running the whole show and it shows.

Maybe this is just some elaborate plan so McCain can pretend to have swung them around at the last minute and be the hero. I doubt it though.

The stakes are high.

Grim, I think she’s been out of her comfort zone for too long and is starting to resent the process. Now the buzz of being picked had worn off it’s all getting to her. She must know that her own campaign doesn’t think she is particularly up to the job since she spends most of her time in hotel rooms learning how to answer questions.

Mike @ 439

The Repub supply siders strike back.
Dubya ought to be leading the charge I suppose.

(And let’s not go into the sermon at her church, which, apparently, she attended, during which it was suggested that Jews suffer terrorism because of their rejection of Christ.)

Well according to the Old Testament, the Hebrews suffered a helluva lot worse due to their rejection of God. So really, what’s the fucking difference?

-good point

Dubya is being treated like he is irrelevent. There was no respect for him in the meeting today as they told him Henry Paulson’s plan was shit.

Good point?????

excuse me, there’s a HUGE difference between what is written in a 2,500 year old book about events 3,200 years ago and what a Minister says NOW about Jews today!

Boogski

You do realise that witches don’t exist don’t you?

I mean a few new age wiccans might say they are witches but there is no more evidence that they can fly, cause pestilence, remove verucas, kill at a distance, sell effective charms or practice physically provable magic, any more than the 10s of thousands burned by Christians in the middle ages could.

And speaking in tongues is just mentally disturbed behaviour and not at all a position of faith from which anyone is in a position to lecture Muslims on their ways.

When I see otherwise normal appearing Americans doing that insane off and running God is a psycho that feels the need to babble in a phonologically restricted way with no evident grammar or even the slightest clue as to how to pretend to speak a weird language, stuff, my toes curl under in cringing embarassment.

the same way I felt when a pschizophrenic guy we knew used to climb in through the coal shed naked and appear in the living room speaking in tongues.

Quite often if the tongues wouldn’t stop we had to call the men in white coats to come and take him away.

Andrew Sullivan collects some interesting links about Thursday’s events.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com

“According to one GOP lawmaker, some House Republicans are saying privately that they’d rather “let the markets crash” than sign on to a massive bailout.
“For the sake of the altar of the free market system, do you accept a Great Depression?” the member asked.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13946.html

Witches don’t exist? Balderdash. Look at Penny Pritzger, a prime inventor of subprime mortgage backed securities who bravely led Superior Bank into insolvency. And now she is National Finance Chair/Treasurer of Barack Hussein Obama’s presidential campaign. That’s downright witchy, no?

Now, if I wanted to play Tim’s game I would also point out that her hotel is hosting tonight’s dinner for Ahmadinejad, but I think it would be unfair to tar her by that association.

Look at Penny Pritzger, a prime inventor of subprime mortgage backed securities who bravely led Superior Bank into insolvency.

Well, if you look at Wikipedia, “a prime inventor” is over egging it a bit. Some involvement, certainly.

“You must be Gene in disguise! You must be – e Gene in dis – guise!” (well known football chant).

Praise be to The Lord for those posters who trashed this item and simply mentioned Rev Wright (add Farrakhan too).

Obama only had 20 years to suss Wright out. He could “no longer disown Rev Wright than I could my own Black Community” – then he threw him under a bus.

Do you think Palin was going to speak at the anti-Hitler Junior march at the UN in FAVOUR of his antisemitic spew?

Perhaps Palin’s pastor could have a go at Nancy Pelosi. She’s definitely a witch!

Last March Obama delivered a speech in which he not only denounced Wright’s hateful comments, he explained in some detail why his former pastor was wrong. Later he broke completely with Wright and quit the church where he had been pastor. Maybe it was too little too late, but he did it.

YEAH!!! 20 YEARS LATE! and after he had previously had an opportunity to hear what he said in various video out takes where he already made all his hateful statements.

Then Wright went to some Pastors convention and was the star act. It was ONLY his behavious in such a public platform and answers to some questions from the floor presented by a student that tipped Obama over the top. Only THEN did he reflectively decide that what he first considered and rejected was now unacceptable.

He flip-flopped and dithered. He had several opportunities to ditch Wright but he started out by defending him.

While I’m on watch no-one will get away with such a simplistic precis.

BTW – I have on video Hannity’s special on Rev Wright from about six months ago (on my Sky box). I have the chronology and all the important events on video. I claim authority in this matter. I just happened to have watched it again last weekend. Wright is a liar. He said that “Chickens coming home to roost” was a statement by an ex-foreign advisor shown on Fox after 9/11. People in his hypnotised audience agreed they saw the interview too. Well Fox played the interview and he never said it!

Meanwhile, a Republican insurgency on the hill has derailed the bailout plan. Apparently they’re not listening to anybody – not even Bush or McCain – and are behaving like they’re whacked out on speed and crack.

The reason is that it was blank check politics that allowed teh Dems to force through the idea that you had to make $300,000 loans to peanut sellers because everyone must be allowed to buy a home. Obama’s friend at Fannie May made $90m over 5 years and yet Fannie May have already been cited for fraudulent accounting and are now under FBI investigation. I think Republicans are right to look carefully at a bill that would let the Dems in congress nod through something that benefits their crony friends yet again.

Why should tax-payers who have been careful with their money and financed themselves with contingency have to bail out reckless people who borrowed what they couldn’t afford. The Republicans simply don’t want the $7b in one go, They want an initial $2.5bn as an immediate life-boat and then want accountability. The Poulson Plan states that no-one has any legal comeback against him or the Govt if the plan fails.

Basically its “Here crooks – have $7bn for being crooks”.

oh, come on. we allow a black man to touch a white woman and you lefties still find something to complain about.

Gene,
Do you really think Palin is the only politician who is not a team player/used to running the whole show? I’d have thought that was a required mindset of a politician (whether the reality is true or not). I’d rather see people critique her for more substantial issues than risk looking like we might just be implying “ooh, bid-headed for a woman” (just maybe)

And others: Obama? To dump Wright 20 years on? Of course he waited that long. He didn’t realise the effect on his publicity when he didn’t need publicity.

Have you read the “Audacity of Hope” (yes, I’m sure many of you have): every position he takes he can “see the other side” and he is trying to be all inclusive (read: get all the votes). He was flip-flopping and protecting his ass before he started running.

Why are there no real candidates?

every position he takes he can “see the other side” and he is trying to be all inclusive

Do you think that’s fake? From what I have read about when he taught students he was never a hell raiser. You could just say that it is just one giant ploy, but another equally defendable argument is that its genuine.

Basically its “Here crooks – have $7bn for being crooks”.

Add a couple of noughts… It’s $700bn…

In fact, according to one estimate I have read it, could be near 1.7 trillion all told.

Boogski

You do realise that witches don’t exist don’t you? [...]

Yes Metta, I realize that. But “speaking in tongues” is no more kooky or mentally disturbed than standing around in a circle chanting to the ‘tree god’ or whatever the fuck those Wiccans do. Point is, I don’t think any one religion has a monopoly on kookiness.

Tim is trying to taint Palin by painting Muthee as an anti-Semite (notice the bolded segment in tim’s post) when there is no evidence that he is. There’s plenty of evidence, however, that Louis Farrakhan is an anti-Semite and all-around racist asshole. And we know whose preacher embraced him, don’t we.

Benjamin,
The honest answer is I don’t know if it’s fake. But I do know I’d rather a 2 year US senator had done more in the senate in those two years than write another book that is possibly about his image, and immediately launch a campaign to be preseident.

I’ll vote for him of course, as the alernative is far worse, but I’m not happy about it. He’s moved so far into that “but I can see the other side” point of view since he was nominated. I think his book demonstates that this was inevitable, but I’m very disappointed to continually be reminded that I can no longer have ideals and expectations, but must always try to find the pragmatic truth in the lies. I’m not very good at that…and I resent having to second guess all the time. Yes, real life.

I suppose I preferred H. Clinton because her exaggerations and occasional lies are more transparent, and I felt more that I undestood what she meant. Obama makes me feel I’ve no idea at all what the reality wil be. (I think I know what McCain’s reality would be, and I disagree/disapprove of it)

Boogski.
Who do you think Muthee means by the “Israelites” and which nations do they run?

excuse me, there’s a HUGE difference between what is written in a 2,500 year old book about events 3,200 years ago and what a Minister says NOW about Jews today!

Well excuse me, but Christians today happen to BELIEVE what’s written in that 2,500 year old book. I’m pretty sure a fair number of Jews do too.

Boogski.
Who do you think Muthee means by the “Israelites” and which nations do they run?

Jews and Israel, I suppose. I’m pretty sure Jews run things there. When Muthee says “our nations” he probably means predominantly Christian nations. That’s no more dodgy than Jews referring to Israel as “our nation” or “homeland” or whatever.

Tim,

If you suspect Muthee is a “Jews run the world” conspiracy kook, why don’t you contact him for clarification?

I think your antisemite detector is on a hair trigger tim. The normal order of service in my church going days was an OT reading followed by a sermon which refers back to that reading. Course I never went to this particular church, your mileage may differ

Strangely enough, there are some people who consider Muthee’s remarks about “the Israelites” as favorable to the Jews instead of what it is: an obvious antisemitic stereotype about Jewish control of the world’s economies.

Its a shame Palin doesn’t detect much at all.
Even witchhunting.

And there is of course a hazard in throwing about allegations of antisemiteism with insufficient evidence, it’s called crying wolf.

Jon d, what do you think Muthee meant by his comment about “the Israelites”?

more worrying than this weirdo are Palin’s potential connections to the John Birch Society and other “patriotic” forces in the 90ies: http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2008/09/early-signs-of.html

I’m not entirely sure what he meant Gene, sermons are like Tony Benn speeches, you feel better after hearing one and yot might even think it makes sense while its in progress. Jewish power certainly wasn’t a major theme imo.

Christians are fond of using OT examples of Israelites either being punished for disobeying god or prevailing because they obeyed god. Christians believe they should learn from these lessons.
Christian preaching mentions Israelites a lot.

He must have some powers though John.Once the Reverand had “made away” the witchcraft from Sarah and helped her to get elected, he predicted that

we will not have in the curriculum witchcraft and sorcery.

I can confirm that Alaska does not have witchcraft and sorcery on the curriculum.

Another mainstay of christian teaching is that the modern world is falling far short of what god intended for it. That single sentence in the sermon looks to of like it’s brought 2 common sermon themes together.

I suspect ‘Gene’ might in fact be Andrew Sullivan.

Though fwiw being ‘complimentary’ about Jews can be another form of antisemitism. The pastor seems optimistic about the chances of getting his people into the right jobs fair and square though. The usual antisemitic trope would be that jewish power

I think Tim just got promoted to Witchhunter-General. Well done.

Surely that would be Witchunter-Witchhunter-General.

Christians are fond of using OT examples of Israelites either being punished for disobeying god or prevailing because they obeyed god. Christians believe they should learn from these lessons.
Christian preaching mentions Israelites a lot.

It’s the “And that’s how they are, even today” that got me. Is Muthee saying that God rewarded the Jews by giving them control of the world’s economies? Regardless of how it’s arrived at, the belief that the Jews control world finance is straight out of the “Protocols.”

… Can’t be dislodged playing by the rules. Hence the need to use ‘other means’

Good points, Jon d. I think tim is way off the mark regarding Muthee’s remarks.

What do you think he meant by Israelites controlling economies Boogski?

Bearing in mind that the day McCain picked Palin, The church took this video off its website.

What do you think he means by ‘won’? He’s not using the clearest of english but it seems far more likely he’s refering back to a prior OT lesson about righteous biblical Israelites prevailing than modern israelites ‘winning’ control of the world economy.

What do you think he means by ‘won’? He’s not using the clearest of english but it seems far more likely he’s refering back to a prior OT lesson about righteous biblical Israelites prevailing than modern israelites ‘winning’ control of the world economy.

But then you have his “And that’s how they are, even today”– which suggests he’s discussing more than just ancient biblical history.

He doesn’t seem to make much of it for a chap who believes the jews control the world economy and is quite happy to go on about his wicked witch conspiracy theories. The evidence of antisemitism here is insufficient imo.

What do you think he meant by Israelites controlling economies Boogski?

It is high time that we have top Christian businessmen, businesswomen, bankers, you know, who are men and women of integrity, running the economics of our nations.

Here, I believe he wants pious Christians in positions of power and influence in the business community of “our nations” – meaning predominantly Christian nations. Not particularly surprising.

If you look at the Israelites, you know, that’s how they won. And that’s how they are, even today.

Here, I think he is referring to the success of Israelites of the past and Israelis of the present because of their sense of determination and unity – and perhaps even what he considers to be Israelite piousness. Note that nowhere does he suggest that Jews or Israelites or Israelis “control” the economies of the US or any other country other than Israel.

The silliest — and most brazen and shameless — thing I’ve heard lately is Conservative/Republican types like (nisht-a)-Maven wittering on about how the financial meltdown in the U.S. is the Dem’s fault, or that it’s because of too MUCH regulation.

Let’s see: no rules on mortgages, republicans controlling House from 1994-2006, Senate from 2000-2006, White House from 2000-2008. Not to mention that making quick profits and coming up with new loan schemes fits perfectly with the “unfettered free market” they go on and on about.
The chutzpah in blaming it on the democrats is incredible, but not surprising.

[URL=http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/politics/2008/09/24/ec.free.palin.commentary.cnn ]‘Free Sarah Palin’[/URL]

‘Free Sarah Palin’

I really don’t know what to say to that. Tim

You disingenious lil’ dickins, you! Try the following:

Louis Farrakhan – Jeremiah Wright – Barack Obama.

Jon d, what do you think Muthee meant by his comment about “the Israelites”?

I will not defend this Christian ‘preacher’ ( Palin is a baptised Catholic, by the way), but the use of the term “Israelite” is both flattering and insulting.

Let me explain.

It is a term that Ahmadinejad, for example, would never use because it implicitly suggests that the Israelis of today are the direct and uninterrupted descendants of the Biblical Jews, a FACT Islam consistently denies

Nor would any Muslim cleric would ever use the term “Israelite” to describe 21st century Jews because such usage would undermine Islam’s claim on Jerusalem and confer both status and legitimacy on the state of Israel.

So far, so good!

After that, though, things get nasty. This pastor DOES harbour anti-semitic sentiments in that he, like so many vulgar neo-nazis and Islamists, is clearly convinced that the Jews control all, or most, aspects of business, commerce, communications and culture.

So, although he acknowledges and even embraces Jewish historical claims such as the direct link between modern and biblical Jews and the legitimacy of Israel, he nonetheless veers off into David Duke territory and invokes cabals and conspiracies and what not.

When he says ‘won’ he’d have to mean the israelites won control of the world economy in the pre christian era? Wow.