Harry's Place

a google (poor) translation of the article, http://tinyurl.com/3jb3hk

According to this place they are not, given the fact that you fail to support a victim of attempted rape just because the accused is one of you guys.

“According to this place they are not, given the fact that you fail to support a victim of attempted rape just because the accused is one of you guys”

What the fuck are you on, you gutless, spiritless, psychopathic turd?

A quote from the demonic Robert Spencer might be apposite to any discussion of honour killings:

“A manual of Islamic law certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.” However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (’Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).”

To the objection that modern Muslims would not take the writings of a 14thC sharia jurist, however highly regarded, seriously, the only reply would be ‘You bet!’.

Who do you think you are, Oliver Kamm? Any chance you could get that article translated into English? We’re not all public school educated you know.

“According to this place they are not, given the fact that you fail to support a victim of attempted rape just because the accused is one of you guys.”

Cunt. Fuck off.

Ha ha. I did French at a comprehensive. Blame the present government for forcing foreign languages into public schools.

“Ha ha. I did French at a comprehensive.”

So did I. And gave it up as soon as I could. Mainly because our French teacher was a snooty (genuinely) French woman who spent all her time telling us how dreadful our English accents were – Nottingham working-class you see (great accent). I can still hear her now, shouting at the class: “You all say ‘boose’ instead of ‘bus’, what is ‘boose’? ‘Boose? Boose? It’s so ugly.” Hideous old twat.

Organise a boycott of their academic institutions and commercial products, post haste!

Come on Flanker, we all know you live to goad , but please, what are you on about this time?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/world/americas/20venez.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

“Flanker
20 September 2008, 12:02 am

Oh BTW

“clashed with the Vatican over its granting of political asylum to a political opponent.”

Political opponent? Nixon (Moreno) tried to rape a woman and is wanted for that crime, the dude is a sick mofo.
Flanker
20 September 2008, 12:11 am

So much for women’s rights, neocon slime like the NYT don’t care about attempted rapes. Here is her testimony for the few here that do care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-upR49TXyI

The rest of you are trash.”

Neocons don’t give a shit about women’s rights if the perp is one of them.

My french is impeccable. Good article, but nowhere does Monsieur Bobin mention Islam. Nor does he imply or even suggest a connection between such violent misogyny and islam’s core texts and legal rulings.

Muslim women are second-class citizens, and this, on those rare occassions when they’re considered citizens at all.

Muslim males can kill their wives, their mothers and their daughters with virtual impunity because it is legally sanctioned and yet some western leftists (the more cluess) still swallow the line that islam was a boon to women’s rights.

“My french is impeccable.”

Aw, go on – translate it for us.

This is a very rough translation of the article quoted:

‘”Aren’t women human?”, exclaimed Tahira Abdullah, one of the main activists in the Pakistani feminist movement. Speaking [to the author] within the headquarters of the Pakistani Human Rights Commission in Islamabad – a modest villa with a small garden – une modeste villa avec jardinet – Ms Abdullah expressed her outrage over the “barbaric crime” committed last July against five women in Baluchistan. “We demand that the guilty men be arrested at put on trial.”

Mrs Abdullah understands the scale of her task [fighting for women's rights]. Although exceptional because of its sheer cruelty – the victims were buried alive – this act of mass murder in Baluchistan is nothing more than ‘the tip of the iceberg’ [literally, 'a link in a long chain'], she sighs. According to the HRCP, at least 636 women were killed in ‘honour crimes’ in Pakistan in 2007. The real figure is probably in the thousands, because many deaths are not recorded by the authorities.

The killers are always related to the victim; they are usually the brother, the father or the cousin of the deceased, and are convinced that they have the right to commit murder in order to restore the sullied ‘honour’ of their family. The victims are usually killed because they are accused of adultery (often on the basis of a mere allegation), of marrying a man without her family’s consent, of demanding a divorce or of being the victim of rape. This does not take into account cases of manipulation [undefined by the author], of fake adultery, or where women are sacrificed to appease a rival clan.

These crimes are deemed culturally acceptable within a society where women are seen as little more than objects, or as mere goods to be exchanged in order to forge tribal allainces. Known as ’swara’ amongst the Pashtuns, ‘chatti’ with the Sindhis, ‘khoon baba’ amongst the Baluchis or ‘vanni’ to the Punjabis, this is social code which reduces women to the status of chattels [in Pakistan] is identical. A tribal feud can be resolved if the clan that provoked the clash offers several girls – future wives – to their rivals. It is in this manner that disputes between clans can be resolved and civil order maintained.

One recent example shocked public opinion in much of Pakistan. In the frontier region between Sind and Baluchistan – the most backward part of the country – fifteen girls (the youngest being four years old) were offered as tribute and compensation by one clan to a rival group which had lost several clansmen after a violent clash. The brawl [literral translation] between the two clans was caused by a dog’s death.

In the North-West Frontier Province, this type of arrangement is usually concluded by a jirga involving both clans, and is a cause for celebration, according to Minar Minullah, in her book which commemorates the victims of swara (’Swara, the Human Shield’. Ethnomedia, Islamabad, 2006). A Cambridge-educated anthropologist, Anthropologue diplômée de Cambridge, Minar Minullah has tried to force Pakistan’s elite to address the reality of ’social and cultural violence’ against Pakistani women which she argues makes a mockery of all concepts of honour. ‘It is time’, she says’, ‘to abandon this culture of silence and denial’.’

Typically enough, Flanker can’t condemn such misogynistic violence. Maybe the sick little bastard gets a belt out of it.

Tell us how Bush had his Reichstag burned, you cunt.

Muslim males can kill their wives, their mothers and their daughters with virtual impunity because it is legally sanctioned and yet some western leftists (the more cluess) still swallow the line that islam was a boon to women’s rights.

what planet are you on mate

Muslim males can kill their wives, their mothers and their daughters with virtual impunity because it is legally sanctioned

Can you quote me the appropriate line from the Koran please?

“This is a very rough translation of the article quoted:”

Excellent. Thanks.

I would guess that anyone who values things like conviviality would be put off from reading or commenting on this blog by the presence of ordure like Flanker or HPBNP. I know I am. In fact I think I’ll naff off from now on if they’re going to be present.

I’d be interested in other comments (anonymous or otherwise) from readers with a view on the comments here.

saeed,
Are you accusing John P. of being unrealistic about the position of women in Islam (that he’s, say, exaggerating) or about the belief that Islam stands up for women’s rights being held by some western leftists? (that no leftist believes that) or do you think that denying that Islam was good women’s rights is crazy?

Adultery by a married woman is, of course, punishable by death in classical Islamic law and if the imam won’t enforce a fatwa, a believer can take it upon himself to do so – some might decide that nobody needs fatwas in open and shut cases anyway. I don’t know the original source, but a review of Geraldine Brooks’ ‘Nine parts of desire’(1996) states:

“Brooks cites a British study that women married to men of Muslim background were eight times more likely to be killed by their spouses than other women in Britain.”

http://www.islamfortoday.com/9parts.htm

Also:
“Under Syrian law, an honor killing is not murder, and the man who commits it is not a murderer. As in many other Arab countries, even if the killer is convicted on the lesser charge of a “crime of honor,” he is usually set free within months. Mentioning the killing — or even the name of the victim — generally becomes taboo.”
from

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/magazine/23wwln-syria-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin

and

“Jordanian authorities recorded a total of 17 so-called “honour” killings in 2007, slightly up on previous years.

The killers often receive light sentences if convicted, as parliament has refused to reform the penal code to end the near impunity of the perpetrators.”
from

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2008/April/middleeast_April108.xml&section=middleeast&col=

I won’t bore you by going through every Muslim country. I admit that acid attacks seem to be a Pakistani and Bangladeshi phenomenon and may often be carried out by spurned suitors but it all comes from the same misogynistic mix.

extract from Times report yesterday:

“Muslim spiritual leaders could be denounced publicly by their own community as part of a campaign to expose imams whose silence on domestic abuse is leading to women being burnt, lashed and raped in the name of Islam

Muslim scholars are to present the Government with the names of imams who are alleged by members of their own communities to have refused to help abused women. Imams are also accused of refusing to speak out against domestic abuse in their sermons because they fear losing their clerical salaries and being sacked for broaching a “taboo” subject.

Some of Britain’s most prominent moderate imams and female Muslim leaders have backed the campaign, urging the Home Office to vet more carefully Islamic spiritual leaders coming to Britain to weed out hardliners. A four-month inquiry by the Centre for Islamic Pluralism into domestic abuse has uncovered harrowing tales of women being raped, burnt by cigarettes and lashed with belts by their husbands, who believe it is their religious right to mistreat them.
…
During its investigation the organisation – the British arm of a longestablished US think-tank – received a number of complaints about imams who had turned a blind eye to cases of domestic violence, many of whom are followers of Wahabbism, a puritanical interpretation of the Koran espoused by Osama bin Laden.

There have also been similar complaints about clerics from the Tablighi Jamaat movement, which is accused of radicalising young British Muslims with its orthodox teachings.

The organisation’s international director, the Muslim scholar Irfan al-Alawi, told The Times that he would be forwarding the names of the imams to the Home Office, which has promised to investigate the allegations. He called for them to be stripped of any government grants that they may be receiving. He is also seeking legal advice about exposing the imams at public lectures and forums throughout the country.
…

Sheikh Irfan Chishti, director of the Light of Islam Academy and a former member of Tony Blair’s Preventing Extremism Together taskforce, said there was “religious justification” among some imams for the abuse and subjugation of women.

He said female victims were in many cases afraid of seeking help because they feared retribution and being accused of tarnishing or disobeying Islam.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4828349.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4828277.ece

Flanker used the word neocon twice in his post

Hi there.

Let me explain my number one patient for you. Flaner hates you all for a variety of reasons I won’t go into, but let’s say they’re all irrational and stem from a severe inferiority complex.

If you see injustice and speak up against it, he’ll counter it by accusing you of that same injustice.

So, for instance, according to Flanker, there has never been any genocide in Hitler’s Germany, in Pol Pot’s Cambodia, in Saddam Husein’s Iraq, in Darfur or in former Yugoslavia.

Because some of you here appear to be Jews or sympathisers of Jews, Flanker hates you all the more and sees you all as neo cons / Zionist conspirators and as such responsible for all ills the USA and its allies have caused the world.

Flanker is still unresponsive to his medicine – it’s very hard treating him now that he only spends brief spells in the private clinic even though his very rich father has actually procured for him indefinitely the very best room we have. One of Flanker’s less harmful fantasies is that he is travelling somewhere in South America and dining with his demogogic icons such as Chavez. Sadly he spends most of his time either on his mother’s computer or playing with his enormous collection of action men.

If he reappears here, please help me tell him to take his medication an hour after supper.

Thanks!

Is there any evidence that consciousness raising movements can ever succeed in Muslim societies? One gets the improvement that all improvement is temporary because unlike Christian societies the believers never absorb any values from reform movements. The flow of opinion is one way only, and society always reverts.

I’m not flanker’s psychiatrist, but there appears to be some major projection going on: As soon as there is an article or story outlining some grotesque human rights abuse — such as the burying alive of these Pakistani women — he immediately trots out a parallel (though, it should be noted, far lesser) story that occurred in the West, and says that the West, or neocons, or zionists, or whoever, don’t care about the “attempted rapes” that occur in the West or that can’t be pinned on Islamists or their fellow travelers (paraphrasing, but you get the gist).

In fact, it is he who can’t bring himself to utter even a condolence for these poor women buried alive, or burned, and has to go far afield (e.g. the vatican, the NYT, whatever), to make his spurious analogy.

Now that’s projection.

but i’m not a psychologist, so i just think he’s a major asshole.

I think that Flanker is probably a Pakistani living in America, studying computer Science or Business probably, which is why his English is very good but not quite perfect and he gets so heated when the question of Pakistan or Islam comes up. AS for Saeed, what does he mean, it’isn’t true? Even today it was reported that a Pakistani man has been charged with cutting the throat of a Pakistani woman in East London, that it was suggested in the week was a crime of (dis)honour. There are many examples of such crimes in this country now. Johng can pop up and argue that it is a product of patriarchial peasant society (which it is,) but it’s still barbaric. Islam isn’t the only religion that practices (dis)honour killings to be fair, but when did you read about a Hindu in England killing this daughter/sister etc? This is partly a class question, wealthy people don’t want to sully their hands or they pay someone else to do it.

Sue: Flanker is actually a little rich boy in Venezuela.

American feminists don’t have time for this stuff. They are on the front lines for women against the terrible Palin.

>Flanker used the word neocon twice in his post

Only twice?

Wally,

Is there a reason why you chose to respond to Saeed and not Hermane? Is it because of his threatening Arabic name?

“Adultery by a married woman is, of course, punishable by death in classical Islamic law…”

and men.

“and if the imam won’t enforce a fatwa, a believer can take it upon himself to do so – some might decide that nobody needs fatwas in open and shut cases anyway.”

The thing about an Imam’s fatwa is that the links that you gave didnt bring up an Imam’s fatwa at all. It just sounded like a bunch of men killing women based on suspicion. I thought in classical Islamic law when you accused a woman you have to have four pious males to co-sign? You know the same happened to Aisha some 1400 years ago but I guess Muhammed, in an effort to preserve his honor or being a bit weak-kneed decided that you couldnt trip up his young wife without four males testifying. Only God knows why those pagan Arabs wanted to sully her name.

In open and shut cases, why arent there more male corpses? Are they commiting adultery with life size male dolls?

How can some decide they dont need a fatwa when it would be a fatwa that said they wouldnt need one? I think they need a fatwa to ignore a fatwa.

You know I thought the religious elite in these socieites had all the power? Are you saying that they can be undermined by an unsatisfied braying congregation? What will this do for theocracy?

What is classical Islamic law?

“Brooks cites a British study that women married to men of Muslim background were eight times more likely to be killed by their spouses than other women in Britain.”

Are these women, foolish enough to marry a Muslim male in the first place-dummies, being killed because of honor or adultery? Which Imam in these cases neglected his duty after comming to the judgement that they were in fact guilty of adultery and needed to be killed?

“Jordanian authorities recorded a total of 17 so-called “honour” killings in 2007, slightly up on previous years.
The killers often receive light sentences if convicted, as parliament has refused to reform the penal code to end the near impunity of the perpetrators.”

This reminds me of an article I read about a Jordanian man, drug addicted, running a prostitution ring that included his sister, in his Jordanian suburb killed his sister because she didnt want to whore anymore. He then turned himself in and said he did it to preserve honor. Honestly, I think lots of men, who are killing women for all kinds of reasons are telling the authorities it was due to honor to get a lighter sentence. Pretty evil indeed.

If he had walked into the police station and said that his recalcitrant sister didnt want to prostitute to pay for his drug habit, he would have be given a different sentence.

I have to agree though. It is unmitigated misogyny because the classical Islamic laws apply to men also but because of the hatred of women it is only applied to them.

As a reformer, I am more inclined to say that I am not interested in seeing an equal amount of male corpses but instead would like these laws to be scrapped and replaced by a standardized penal system that punished people eqaully for murder.

Josh Scholar,

“Is there any evidence that consciousness raising movements can ever succeed in Muslim societies?”

Does this include the ambitions of the Iraq invasion?

Sue R,

I think Saeed was objecting to the claim that in Islam these actions are sanctioned. He probably believes that because a Muslim or lots of Muslims do things, that it doesnt necessarily jibe with religion.

“Islam isn’t the only religion that practices (dis)honour killings to be fair…”

He may have a problem with this statement. He doesnt believe that Islam practices honor killing anymore than it eats kebab.

Flanker says he lives in Venezula, but how do we know that is true? I have never seen his IP address, so I have an open mind. Last week he was caught out talking about watching recent American tv programmes that are not screen in Latin America and this suggests that he lives in North America. Good well balanced contribution from Black Voter by the way.

wally,

“However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.”

Why did Muhammed make a big stink about female infanticide? I’m officially confused.

Google is serving up the muslim dating service ad on this page – rather sick under the circumstances. I realize that HP has no control over the ads that Google serves up on their pages, but can anybody theorize as to why these ads appear so commonly on HP – along with the Dianetics ads ?

In terms of revenue maximization, HP may want to look for another ad service – I can’t imagine they are getting much click-through income from such ads.

BV, Jordan does not honestly record the number of honor killings… the support for such killings is incredibly high among the public.

Families hold public celebrations/feast for the restoral of family honor after an honor killing.

The King proposed a law that would insure that honor killings were punished as murder.

Not only did it not pass the legislature, but I remember listening to one legislator orating that such a law “would be an infringement on religious freedom”

Now which religion do you think he was talking about? Judaism? Christianity? I don’t think so.

I remember a post by one ex-muslim Palestinian woman about this. She said that the position of honor killing in Islam is debated and she thinks about half of Muslims think it’s part of the religion.

Another Jordanian legislator told the papers that every woman killed was a slut who deserved it.

mesquito,

“American feminists don’t have time for this stuff. They are on the front lines for women against the terrible Palin.”

They need to multitask.

Josh Scholar,

“Not only did it not pass the legislature, but I remember listening to one legislator orating that such a law “would be an infringement on religious freedom”
Now which religion do you think he was talking about? Judaism?Christianity?”

Well since Islam is always accused of plagarism he could have been atleast talking about one of them.

O U

you’re a troll you know that?

I think that Flanker is probably a Pakistani living in America, studying computer Science or Business probably, which is why his English is very good but not quite perfect and he gets so heated when the question of Pakistan or Islam comes up.

There are plenty of native English speaking moonbatist’s who espouse similarly ridiculous and biased views. After participating on message boards for a few years, originally on what was the Independent Newspaper Argument forum (now defunct), I’ve learnt to take the views of the likes of Flanker with a pinch of salt.

I think that Flanker is probably a Pakistani living in America, studying computer Science or Business probably, which is why his English is very good but not quite perfect and he gets so heated when the question of Pakistan or Islam comes up.

There are plenty of native English speaking moonbatist’s who espouse similarly ridiculous and biased views. After participating on message boards for a few years, originally on what was the Independent Newspaper Argument forum (now defunct), I’ve learnt to take the views of the likes of Flanker with a pinch of salt.

Why has my post appeared twice – I posted it once.

Terrible things certainly were done to women (and men) in the name of religion, in Judaism and Christianity, and misogyny is certainly something common to all religions, monotheistic and polytheist. So what? Mainstream Christianity and Judaism have long since moved on and got a real “life”. But where the fuck is mainstream Islam today, except stuck in the darkest middle ages?

I wonder if someone will write a play about them one day?

Perhaps they will. I don’t fancy their chances of getting it staged in Brtain, though.

In addition to highlighting the plight of women in Pakistan I think we should also highlight the plight of men and children too. There is even more men killed with impunity in Pakistan than women and the fate of children is just as bad.

I understand for many here we must have a hostility toward Muslim men on behalf of women but if they are not included in our plan for rights, freedom, and the rule of law, we/they cant win.

@ Sue r

You always seem to pop up in threads/posts that are about islam and muslims, without having anything constructive to say…why don’t you (and all the others on this thread) get invloved in local muslim womens groups in your area…instead of posting nonsense about people you have never met meet up with local femenists…i have female friends from pakistani/bangleshi/somali ethnic groups who work against domestic violence, forced marriage and general opression against women practiced by SOME people in those communities…these women have set up organisations/charites and are doing well for themselves and getting a lot of support from the younger muslims in their areas…at the grass roots level their is a lot of activism from young muslims against backward attitudes practiced by SOME muslims its just that you don’t see it Sue.R cos you are so bigoted…

Thank you for your advice, Saeed.

when confronted with logic a bigot responds with scarcasm….

Saeed –

Agreed.

The lies of Islam about the position of women in the pre-Islamic period are shown up by the fact that Mohammed’s first wife was very much his social superior. She was an independent businesswoman.

The early Muslims’ neurotic dress code for women was I believe an import from Persia.

I’m looking forward to publication of the Jewel of Medina by the brave folk at Gibson Square Books.

Random House (yes, don’t buy anything from them) abandoned the book once they realised what it was about.

Saaed’s contribution is significantly better than most in this thread.

I put up a post about a feminist in Pakistan who is fighting against this sort of thing, and a load of nihilistic bigots effectively suggest she is wasting her time.

The point is that people like her, and they could be nearer to home, deserve support, just as the Afghan government and Iraqi government deserve support. They are human.

There is nothing in the genes of Muslims that prevents them from overcoming reactionary elements in their communities. Some of you so-called opponents of Islam, are so condemning of all Muslims that you have more in common with Osama Bin Laden who also sees all Muslims as a monolith. Muslims are not a homogeneous block of Borgs waiting to assimilate the world, even if there are extremists who get far too much support. Many Muslims are fighting, and dying, the same people you profess to despise.

If change is not possible, then what sort of bleak world are we living in? It’s a council of despair, and a total lack of faith in universal values of human rights being transferable to others.

“The early Muslims’ neurotic dress code for women was I believe an import from Persia.”

I think this is not true.

The Mishna, written before the advent of Islam, mentions that the women of Arabia, had the custom to veil their heads and faces.

So it seems the hijab and perhaps even the niqaab, have pre Islamic, Arabic roots.

“Flanker says he lives in Venezula, but how do we know that is true? I have never seen his IP address, so I have an open mind. Last week he was caught out talking about watching recent American tv programmes that are not screen in Latin America and this suggests that he lives in North America. Good well balanced contribution from Black Voter by the way.”

What nonsense, I can make my IP be that of swaziland if I so chose too, heck I might start annonymizing tomorrow it since I feel Gene is stalking me.

PS I used to get Murdoch’s love child on cable, don’t be so arrogant as to know my programing.

PPS I don’t really care who you think I am, heck maybe I am Pakistani.

PPPS You are right about my grasp of english

well put Neil D.

It really doesn’t matter where Flanker lives. Stupid is unversal, eternal.

Bradford and Bingly is nationalised!

Then why all the obsession? seriously the IP stalking is quite creepy.

The IP stalking is creepy. But then again, so are u. not that I’m justifying IP stalking.

“The IP stalking is creepy. But then again, so are u. not that I’m justifying IP stalking.”

Don’t worry you are doing what I usually do, they may not respect women’s rights but neither do you neocons. Just pointing out your sanctimonious hypocrisy.

Yossi –

You may be right. I’m not claiming expert knowledge about that. I am sure I read about the Persian connection. The Arabian peninsula was basically fought over between the Byzantines and Persians, the local superpowers. If the custom was established in Arabia among part of the population, I think maybe the point was that it had been introduced during the period of Persian occupation.

I need to read up on that.

But the point about his first wife stands!

Field,

I have no doubt that you are right about his first wife, I know very little about early Islam so am in no position to offer a contrary opinion.

As for the Persian connection, you might be right. The Mishnah, I believe was written before the Byzantine period. But of course the Persians had been a large empire hundreds of years before and it may well have been them who introduced the hijab to Arabia. But at the time the Mishnah was written it was no longer a Persian custom.

NeilD –

I think you are not really facing up to the problem here.

When Christians campaigned against terrible social ills like slavery, child labour, oppression of women, grinding poverty and so on, they could go back to their sacred books and find full justification for those campaigns – Jesus’s examples were generally very telling and in favour of social justice. We have only to think of his mixing with humble people, his advice to turn the other cheek and forgive your enemies, his feeding of the hungry, refusal to condemn the adulterous woman, and his own unjust conviction as a criminal.

But when Muslims who want to make social progress go back to their sacred books what do they find? A Prophet who marries and has sex with a nine year old, and orders the killing of people who satirise him; a man who makes derogatory remarks about women; hatred expressed towards Jews and other unbelievers; cruel punishments for those who offend against the code (Mohammed wants the adulterer stoned); instructions on conduct of war and division of booty etc etc .

That is the problem in a nutshell.

So rather than having a go against people who see the difficulty, perhaps you should devote your energies to explaining how Muslims might overcome those difficulties.

test

Don’t worry you are doing what I usually do, they may not respect women’s rights but neither do you neocons. Just pointing out your sanctimonious hypocrisy.

First of all i aint no neocon. second, it would help if you actually were coherent, the only part of that i could even decipher was that somehow i had joined the neocon crowd. or is that just a word you use for anyone to the right of you (i.e. most of us sane folks).

“First of all i aint no neocon. second, it would help if you actually were coherent, the only part of that i could even decipher was that somehow i had joined the neocon crowd. or is that just a word you use for anyone to the right of you (i.e. most of us sane folks).”

Meh, you are all neocons until proven otherwise. Did you support the Iraq war or any war of aggression by the west? a simple yes/no will suffice.

“Mohammed’s first wife was very much his social superior. She was an independent businesswoman.”

I understand that Khadija, his first wife, was a woman of independant means, and may have been a widow. She originally engaged a young man to conduct transactions on her behalf.

“Did you support the Iraq war or any war of aggression by the west? a simple yes/no will suffice.”

Comrade-Prosecutor Vyshinski demands an answer.

“I wonder if someone will write a play about them one day?”
Oh course not. Their murderers were not Western, nor can their actions be blamed on Westerners.

Yes, Iraq was a war of aggression. And yes, Flanker, I supported it then and I still support it now. It was the right thing to do.
Only wankers like yourself, actually think Saddam’s regime should not have been overthrown. You would have opposed the Nazi conquest of Poland.

“You would have opposed the Nazi conquest of Poland.”
Sorry, mistype. You would have opposed war against Nazi Germany for Germany’s invasion of Poland.

Meh, you are all neocons until proven otherwise. Did you support the Iraq war or any war of aggression by the west? a simple yes/no will suffice.

Flanker doesn’t quite understand what a ‘neocon’ actually is. Not really surprising, because his grasp on reality is fairly tenuous.

Neocon does not mean ’supported the Iraq war’.

Sorry, mistype. You would have opposed war against Nazi Germany for Germany’s invasion of Poland.

People like Flanker respect power, and hate weakness. Given the thugs that he supports, I would wonder if he would be more supportive on the US if we truly were a fascist state.

Neil D posts a graphic photo displaying the results of sadistic cruelty and then is *shocked* when people voice their less than tolerant outrage in the comments. It’s the same fucking bullshit every time a post like this shows up on HP.

Any culture and/or religion that would turn a blind eye to disgusting acts of cruelty such as this is inferior, period.

Niel, and yet Saeed’s answer includes the real demand that Islamists alway have, that there should be no criticism of Islam. He says join organizations, but shut up and never criticisize. I don’t think that’s at all helpful.

Flanker is fine as comic relief, but he posts way too much and gets way too many responses. Stop feeding the fucking troll, people.

Niel I believe in universal human rights, unfortunately Islam’s last and supreme prophet, God’s perfect example for all mankind, was a tyrant who was explicitly opposed to human rights.

The decedents of todays Muslims will be very happy to support human rights, just as soon as they free themselves from Islam. It’s a horrible horrible shame that nothing short of that is likely to be effective.

That may be a council of despair, but it’s hardly bigoted.

Also, fuck my spell checker, “descendants”

Any close look at the intersection of “women” and “islam” shows a total disregard for the female of the species. Women are to be used, they are worth half the value of men, they can be beaten, they are subject to certain rules while men are not, etc… The Quran only mentions one woman by name: Mary (and gets her status in Christianity wrong!). The Islamic traditioons are even worse. The ahadith tell us that Mohammad and other early leaders beat their women (unless Aisha saying “he hit me and cause pain” means something else), enslaved and raped females, considered them stupid, said that most people in hell were women, etc…

Now what we are seeing is a deterioration of the status of women in Islamic societies. More and more must cover up. Other restrictions are being imposed. The fact is that Muslims want a purer Islam and that means women must be controlled, more and more. Morality, in islam, is all about how a man controls a woman’s body. It is not about peace, being kind, charity or honesty. It will get worse.

Unless one has studied what Muslims actually say and do on this subject, a person will have no idea of the extent of this evil and its terrible effect on women.
http://www.kactuzkid.com/women.html

Bad times are coming.

Kactuz

Flanker: another dolt, this time from the (loony) left, not worth arguing with. what’s a good centrist to do????

Domestic violence, as most sane people would openly admit is not the sole domain of Muslims.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/article_print.asp?ArticleID=2451

Statistics
The body of a woman just killed, The Morgue, Guatemala City, June 2005 © Carlos Reyes-Manzo

* 167 women are raped everyday in the UK
* Domestic violence accounts for nearly a quarter of all recorded violent crime in England and Wales – one in four women will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime
* One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute
* On average, two women per week are killed by a male partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner
* The Foreign Office gets 250 reports of forced marriage a year
* 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation in England and Wales

Domestic violence

* 74% of men would report a dog being beaten to the RSPCA or police, but only 53% would report domestic violence to the police
* On average, a woman is assaulted 35 times before her first call to the police (Jaffe 1982)
* One woman in nine is severely beaten by her male partner each year (Stanko et al, 1998)
* A Home Office report from 2002 found domestic violence to have a higher rate of repeat victimisation than any other crime
* ‘Current partners’ were responsible for 45% of rapes reported to the British Crime Survey

Cost to society

* In September 2004, Sylvia Walby of the University of Leeds estimated the total cost of domestic violence to services at over £5.7 billion a year
* In 1996 Professor Elizabeth Stanko estimated the cost of providing services to women and children facing domestic violence in one London borough to be about £90 per year per household and the total cost for Greater London to be £276 million per year

Relevant human rights law

* The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.
* The European Committee of Social Rights (ECSR) promotes gender equality, equal visibility, empowerment and participation of both sexes in all spheres of public and private life.
* The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCHR) released the Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages for ratification in 1962.
* The 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) ensures that signatory governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.
* Under UK law, the Gender Equality Duty and Race Equality Duty (April 2007) requires all public bodies to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality between women and men.
* The Human Rights Act (1998) applies to all public bodies within the United Kingdom, including central government, local authorities, and bodies exercising public functions even when exercising these functions overseas.

Domestic violence, as most sane people would openly admit is not the sole domain of Muslims.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/article_print.asp?ArticleID=2451

Statistics
The body of a woman just killed, The Morgue, Guatemala City, June 2005 © Carlos Reyes-Manzo

* 167 women are raped everyday in the UK
* Domestic violence accounts for nearly a quarter of all recorded violent crime in England and Wales – one in four women will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime
* One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute
* On average, two women per week are killed by a male partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner
* The Foreign Office gets 250 reports of forced marriage a year
* 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation in England and Wales

Domestic violence

* 74% of men would report a dog being beaten to the RSPCA or police, but only 53% would report domestic violence to the police
* On average, a woman is assaulted 35 times before her first call to the police (Jaffe 1982)
* One woman in nine is severely beaten by her male partner each year (Stanko et al, 1998)
* A Home Office report from 2002 found domestic violence to have a higher rate of repeat victimisation than any other crime
* ‘Current partners’ were responsible for 45% of rapes reported to the British Crime Survey

Cost to society

* In September 2004, Sylvia Walby of the University of Leeds estimated the total cost of domestic violence to services at over £5.7 billion a year
* In 1996 Professor Elizabeth Stanko estimated the cost of providing services to women and children facing domestic violence in one London borough to be about £90 per year per household and the total cost for Greater London to be £276 million per year

Relevant human rights law

* The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.
* The European Committee of Social Rights (ECSR) promotes gender equality, equal visibility, empowerment and participation of both sexes in all spheres of public and private life.
* The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCHR) released the Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages for ratification in 1962.
* The 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) ensures that signatory governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.
* Under UK law, the Gender Equality Duty and Race Equality Duty (April 2007) requires all public bodies to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality between women and men.
* The Human Rights Act (1998) applies to all public bodies within the United Kingdom, including central government, local authorities, and bodies exercising public functions even when exercising these functions overseas.

Domestic violence, as most sane people would openly admit is not the sole domain of Muslims and to pretend that it is is simply moronic.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/article_print.asp?ArticleID=2451

Statistics
The body of a woman just killed, The Morgue, Guatemala City, June 2005 © Carlos Reyes-Manzo

* 167 women are raped everyday in the UK
* Domestic violence accounts for nearly a quarter of all recorded violent crime in England and Wales – one in four women will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime
* One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute
* On average, two women per week are killed by a male partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner
* The Foreign Office gets 250 reports of forced marriage a year
* 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation in England and Wales

Domestic violence

* 74% of men would report a dog being beaten to the RSPCA or police, but only 53% would report domestic violence to the police
* On average, a woman is assaulted 35 times before her first call to the police (Jaffe 1982)
* One woman in nine is severely beaten by her male partner each year (Stanko et al, 1998)
* A Home Office report from 2002 found domestic violence to have a higher rate of repeat victimisation than any other crime
* ‘Current partners’ were responsible for 45% of rapes reported to the British Crime Survey

Cost to society

* In September 2004, Sylvia Walby of the University of Leeds estimated the total cost of domestic violence to services at over £5.7 billion a year
* In 1996 Professor Elizabeth Stanko estimated the cost of providing services to women and children facing domestic violence in one London borough to be about £90 per year per household and the total cost for Greater London to be £276 million per year

Relevant human rights law

* The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.
* The European Committee of Social Rights (ECSR) promotes gender equality, equal visibility, empowerment and participation of both sexes in all spheres of public and private life.
* The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCHR) released the Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages for ratification in 1962.
* The 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) ensures that signatory governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.
* Under UK law, the Gender Equality Duty and Race Equality Duty (April 2007) requires all public bodies to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality between women and men.
* The Human Rights Act (1998) applies to all public bodies within the United Kingdom, including central government, local authorities, and bodies exercising public functions even when exercising these functions overseas.

Domestic violence, as most sane people would openly admit is not the sole domain of Muslims and to pretend that it is is simply moronic.

Now see how many of these abusers are Muslim men.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/article_print.asp?ArticleID=2451

Statistics
The body of a woman just killed, The Morgue, Guatemala City, June 2005 © Carlos Reyes-Manzo

* 167 women are raped everyday in the UK
* Domestic violence accounts for nearly a quarter of all recorded violent crime in England and Wales – one in four women will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime
* One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute
* On average, two women per week are killed by a male partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner
* The Foreign Office gets 250 reports of forced marriage a year
* 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation in England and Wales

Domestic violence

* 74% of men would report a dog being beaten to the RSPCA or police, but only 53% would report domestic violence to the police
* On average, a woman is assaulted 35 times before her first call to the police (Jaffe 1982)
* One woman in nine is severely beaten by her male partner each year (Stanko et al, 1998)
* A Home Office report from 2002 found domestic violence to have a higher rate of repeat victimisation than any other crime
* ‘Current partners’ were responsible for 45% of rapes reported to the British Crime Survey

Cost to society

* In September 2004, Sylvia Walby of the University of Leeds estimated the total cost of domestic violence to services at over £5.7 billion a year
* In 1996 Professor Elizabeth Stanko estimated the cost of providing services to women and children facing domestic violence in one London borough to be about £90 per year per household and the total cost for Greater London to be £276 million per year

Relevant human rights law

* The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.
* The European Committee of Social Rights (ECSR) promotes gender equality, equal visibility, empowerment and participation of both sexes in all spheres of public and private life.
* The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCHR) released the Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages for ratification in 1962.
* The 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) ensures that signatory governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.
* Under UK law, the Gender Equality Duty and Race Equality Duty (April 2007) requires all public bodies to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality between women and men.
* The Human Rights Act (1998) applies to all public bodies within the United Kingdom, including central government, local authorities, and bodies exercising public functions even when exercising these functions overseas.

I wonder how many of the men in the report are Muslim….

Statistics
The body of a woman just killed, The Morgue, Guatemala City, June 2005 © Carlos Reyes-Manzo

* 167 women are raped everyday in the UK
* Domestic violence accounts for nearly a quarter of all recorded violent crime in England and Wales – one in four women will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime
* One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute
* On average, two women per week are killed by a male partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner
* The Foreign Office gets 250 reports of forced marriage a year
* 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation in England and Wales

Domestic violence

* 74% of men would report a dog being beaten to the RSPCA or police, but only 53% would report domestic violence to the police
* On average, a woman is assaulted 35 times before her first call to the police (Jaffe 1982)
* One woman in nine is severely beaten by her male partner each year (Stanko et al, 1998)
* A Home Office report from 2002 found domestic violence to have a higher rate of repeat victimisation than any other crime
* ‘Current partners’ were responsible for 45% of rapes reported to the British Crime Survey

Cost to society

* In September 2004, Sylvia Walby of the University of Leeds estimated the total cost of domestic violence to services at over £5.7 billion a year
* In 1996 Professor Elizabeth Stanko estimated the cost of providing services to women and children facing domestic violence in one London borough to be about £90 per year per household and the total cost for Greater London to be £276 million per year

Relevant human rights law

* The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.
* The European Committee of Social Rights (ECSR) promotes gender equality, equal visibility, empowerment and participation of both sexes in all spheres of public and private life.
* The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCHR) released the Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages for ratification in 1962.
* The 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) ensures that signatory governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.
* Under UK law, the Gender Equality Duty and Race Equality Duty (April 2007) requires all public bodies to eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality between women and men.
* The Human Rights Act (1998) applies to all public bodies within the United Kingdom, including central government, local authorities, and bodies exercising public functions even when exercising these functions overseas.

I wonder how many of the men in the report are Muslim….

My apologies for the multiple entries. The link didn’t show up for some reason.Here it is:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/article_print.asp?ArticleID=2451

Domestic Violence:
Findings from a new
British Crime Survey
self-completion
questionnaire
by
Catriona Mirrlees-Black
A Research, Development and
Statistics Directorate Report
London: Home Office

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hors191.pdf

The difference is Rastalion, that such men are prosecuted in the UK*, not sanctioned to perform domestic violence+ by a Jirga.

*Unless the new Sharia courts operating in the UK are able to convince the women to drop the cases.

+ I also think we need to draw a distinction between pathetic men who beat their wives (and indeed kill them) and organised violence by groups of men against women (such as abducted young women who have broken a “moral code” and then burying them alive with a digger).

In one society the former is opposed as a default by civil society, in the other the latter is a life or death struggle for feminists.

Josh Scholar:

“The decedents of todays Muslims will be very happy to support human rights, just as soon as they free themselves from Islam. “

Funny, because at the top of this post there is a Muslim women fighting for human rights, and here there is a Muslim female lawyer doing the same. I suggest that you support them, if you can get over the fact they are Muslims.

Does no one have any comment on the initiative in the Times report – see my post yesterday around 7pm- from some Muslim scholars,prominent moderate imams and female muslim leaders in Britain to report and expose imams who protect and condone wife abuse. Irrespective of the arguments of whether this condonation is theologically/culturally based, this seems to me a very brave move which deserves credit.

The big problems with Islam is the idea that the Koran is gods genuine word, that leaves no wiggle room, if the holy scriptures is in it self interpretations and already in the “original” is too a great extent is allegoric it’s much easier to adapt it to changes in society.

Another big obstacle is the role and power of the shamans who claim to be exclusive experts how to interpret fictitious supernatural beings imagined commands. To promote any kind of these “experts” is definitely the wrong way to go, their power shall be reduced.

The ironic thing is that in general it seems to be that the secular political potentates in Muslim countries are much more “progressive” than the religious ones. Every time the try to modernize the situation for woman and children, sharpen penalties for honor killings and so forth it’s the religious potentates that are on the barricades to prevent it.

Yes, very good. But some in this thread, they cannot see anything coming from a Muslim which is good. Their minds work like this:

“Islam is misogynistic.”

“Here are some Muslims fighting for women’s rights.”

“No, Islam is immutable. All must believe the extremist interpretations or they are not Muslims. I will ignore the Muslim feminists.”

Or to put it another way.

Some Muslims are misogynistic. Because they claim a theological inspiration for this view, that must mean that all Muslims are misogynistic if they are true Muslims. Therefore nothing can be done.

The opposite is true. There are progressive forces, and they should be supported, not undermined. Some of the most deranged attackers of Islam, rather than Islamism, are also the least positive about the ability of liberal ideas to defeat extremism. They are scared of Islamists.

Richard et al, you and Flanker are similarly blinkered. I didn’t support the Iraq invasion because I thought it was a strategic mistake. That doesn’t mean I’d be cheering on the Nazi invasion of Poland.

It wasn’t a moral issue for me because, having been personally involved in a few of “Blair’s wars”, I didn’t have a particular problem with that – I just thought at that time in that place it was the wrong thing to do, and I believe events have borne that out.

The failure of yourself and others to acknowledge these shortcomings in your own argument make you and Flanker appear little more than different sides of the same coin.

Neil is your reading comprehension deliberately bad? I didn’t say that there are not reformist Muslims but that they are doomed to fail. Values only flow in one direction in Muslim society unlike Christian societies, I said. The conservative half learns nothing and changes not at all.

No. You’ve done it again. You have stated that Islam is an impossible to change or reform.

Why is Islam so different from any idea?

Fact is, it isn’t.

Osama has attempted a reformation – with variable success.

The Wahabis attempted a reformation – which has had greater success.

I don’t think it is impossible that reform can happen in a more progressive direction.

I imagine in the middle ages you would have been moaning about those attempting to reform the Christian church.

Another blow for feminism.

Bastards.

I suppose the “correct” response is:

“Well, that’s what happens when you have an imperialist force in another culture. We should withdraw. Brown people have differing values”

from the left, and:

“Well, that’s what happens when you waste our soldiers lives in a country fighting for humanitarian interests, rather than national interests. We should withdraw. Brown people have differing values”

from the right.

Funny you should say that, Neil.

See this neo-con rag on her. I did consider making crude sexual remarks there, maybe a direct quote from the stuff on Hirsi Ali, but decided not to lower myself.

The point is surely not whether some of the grosser local cultural traditions against women in the Muslim world (if one can describe honour killings as cultural) are mentioned in the Koran (or the hadiths) but the fact that these traditions are based on local custom and practice and given religious credibility by being sanctioned by local religious teachers as reflecting the correct practice of the religion. For example, there are plenty of imams/mullahs who sanction female circumcision on religious grounds.

“There is nothing in the genes of Muslims that prevents them from overcoming reactionary elements in their communities; Neil D”

Maybe not but there is an enormous body of religious tradition and deference which seeks to persuade Muslims to return an “idealised” version of their religion which prevailed hundreds of years ago in a far more barbaric era and reflects this in many of its customs and practices.”

what planet are you on mateSaeed.

Certainly not planet Islam you backward, misogynistic bastard.

Islam sanctions wife-beating and even provides instructions!

You’re obviously unacquainted with any ex-Muslims, Saeed.

Can you quote me the appropriate line from the Koran please?

Where the fuck have you been?

Islam’s treatment of women (and just about everyone else) is an abomination, a throwback to the finest hour of The Bronze Age.

Any attempt to present or portray this retardation as some sort of watershed for human progress or women’s rights should be greeted with howls of laughter.

And vetting Imams is neither the answer nor the solution.

When a human belief systeme is so corrupted, so vile and so utterly useless the only real answer lay in conversion.

Not only do Muslimas need greater protection than most non-muslim women, they also need to be de-programmed.

Why?

Because it is quite possible to condition a human being into thinking their station in life is akin to that of a slave.

Congratulations to the Pakistani people – they elected Benazir Bhutto Prime Minister twice whilst believing accroding to this tabloid piece , that women arent humans

The first non-human leader in history (Oh I forgot you dont believe muslims of either gender are really human)

Acid attacks are forbidden in every religion and practicised by alleged followers of every religion – but watch the BNP-ites at Harrys Place turn this into a Muslim bashing thread

You fail to mention the legislation against this practice

In 2002, Bangladesh introduced the death penalty for throwing acid and laws strictly controlling the sales of acids.[20] Under the Islamic Qisas law of Pakistan, the perpetrator must suffer the same fate as the victim, and may be punished by having drops of acid placed in their eyes.[21]

Congratulations to the Pakistani people – they elected Benazir Bhutto Prime Minister twice whilst believing accroding to this tabloid piece , that women arent humans

HPBNP, the quote “Aren’t women human beings?” comes from a Pakistani feminist. You can take up your defence of the position of women in Pakistan with her perhaps?

Tosser.

“Not only do Muslimas need greater protection than most non-muslim women, they also need to be de-programmed.

Why?

Because it is quite possible to condition a human being into thinking their station in life is akin to that of a slave.”

Only Muslimas? Do you not believe that Muslim men also need to be de-programmed? Or is it only women who you think are so feeble minded that that they can’t be trusted to make their own decisions and value judgements?

While there is no doubt a large problem with the treatment of women around the Muslim world, it is patronising to assume that Muslim women are only followers of Islam and its understanding of women because they have been programmed.

Don’t forget the large numbers of western women who of their own free will abandon the western view of women and embrace Islam.

A bit of nuance please, and a bit more respect for women too.

The wondrous treatment of women in Judaism

Prayer of Jewish men every morning
“Blessed art thou, O God, for not making me a Gentile, slave, or woman.”

The Talmud says “women are a sack of excrement”

“I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare….while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all” (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).

“No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman…..Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die” (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

“The birth of a daughter is a loss” (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

the period of the mother’s ritual impurity is twice as long if a girl is born than if a boy is (Lev. 12:2-5)

“At the birth of a boy, all are joyful…at the birth of a girl all are sorrowful”, and “When a boy comes into the world, peace comes into the world… When a girl comes, nothing comes.”7

“Your daughter is headstrong? Keep a sharp look-out that she does not make you the laughing stock of your enemies, the talk of the town, the object of common gossip, and put you to public shame” (Ecclesiasticus 42:11).

“Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you” (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).

according to the Talmud, “women are exempt from the study of the Torah.”

Some Jewish Rabbis firmly declared “Let the words of Torah rather be destroyed by fire than imparted to women”, and “Whoever teaches his daughter Torah is as though he taught her obscenity”8

“When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening” (Lev. 15:19-23).

“Our Rabbis taught:….if a menstruant woman passes between two (men), if it is at the beginning of her menses she will slay one of them, and if it is at the end of her menses she will cause strife between them” (bPes. 111a.)

“If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, ‘I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,’ then the girl’s father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl’s father will say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said I did not find your daughter to be a virgin. But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.’ Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel” (Deut. 22:22).

“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death” (Lev. 20:10).

“How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his…… Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband…” (San. 71a, Git. 62a)

“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled” (Deut. 24:1-4).

“The school of Shammai held that a man should not divorce his wife unless he has found her guilty of some sexual misconduct, while the school of Hillel say he may divorce her even if she has merely spoiled a dish for him. Rabbi Akiba says he may divorce her even if he simply finds another woman more beautiful than she” (Gittin 90a-b).

The Old Testament not only gives the husband the right to divorce his “displeasing” wife, it considers divorcing a “bad wife” an obligation:

“A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away” (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).

The Talmud has recorded several specific actions by wives which obliged their husbands to divorce them: “If she ate in the street, if she drank greedily in the street, if she suckled in the street, in every case Rabbi Meir says that she must leave her husband” (Git. 89a). The Talmud has also made it mandatory to divorce a barren wife (who bore no children in a period of ten years): “Our Rabbis taught: If a man took a wife and lived with her for ten years and she bore no child, he shall divorce her” (Yeb. 64a).

Fascinating. A thread about three girls who were buried alive by a digger prompts HPBNP to post about Judaism.

Now we know were you are coming from, it makes life much more easy.

Neil D

“HPBNP, the quote “Aren’t women human beings?” comes from a Pakistani feminist. You can take up your defence of the position of women in Pakistan with her perhaps?”

Why ? She clearly wrote the article to address Pakistanis and remind them of the exalted place women, their mothers and sisters have and how disgraceful it is that even though it is a tiny minority, such things occur.

This is a big difference to how HP has used it which is to demonise and dehumanize Muslims as people – (Acid burning is strictly forbidden and punished in Islamic law and is also done by non-Muslims but you Nazi c*nts turn it into a Muslim issue)

Like Der Sturmer taking extereme acts of bad Jews and potraying it as Judaism or Jewish behavior HP does the same with Muslims

Wonder how long before HP has a post
“Are Muslims human beings?”

Would be intrigued by your answer

Perhaps

Very good, HPBNP (Bob Pitt, whomever). Before 2002, there was little legislation in Bangladesh against acid-splashing. Next, can you cite applications of Qisas in Pakistan of more than 1:250? Or even if it were actually carried out. Or even, punitive action in general.

Funny how your instinctive response is to praise extreme violence.

Cock.

In 2002, Bangladesh introduced the death penalty for throwing acid and laws strictly controlling the sales of acids.[20] Under the Islamic Qisas law of Pakistan, the perpetrator must suffer the same fate as the victim, and may be punished by having drops of acid placed in their eyes.

The mere fact such a law is necessary speaks volumes about Islam’s treatment of women, you irony tone-deaf imbecile.

And invoking the name of Benazir Bhutto just compounds accusations of islamist misogyny.

But you’re an irony tone-deaf imbecile, HPBNP, and so cannot even begin to appreciate the role islamist misogyny played in her assasination.

Do you not believe that Muslim men also need to be de-programmed?

Some are deserving of it, but others should just be kicked in the nuts and sent packing.

Something about too much algae in the gene pool.

Neil D

“Fascinating. A thread about three girls who were buried alive by a digger prompts HPBNP to post about Judaism.

Now we know were you are coming from, it makes life much more easy.”

And how is that? Is criticising Judaism taboo? Why? It is a religion and a barbarous one at that.

Why is there constant criticism of Islam (and Christianity) at HP but never Judaism when the majority of the posters follow that misogynist cult (Oh wait..)

The constant posting about Muslims, though you arent Muslim, kind of tells us alot about you and where you are coming from doesnt it Neil D?

HPBNP,

Oh dear cutting and pasting quotes is doing you no favours.

Firstly the apocrypha is not accepted in Judaism as a legitimate set of texts.

The blessing about not being a woman, is just a statement that as men we are greatfull to G-d for giving us the obligation to observe commandments that women are exempt from. (I stress exempt, but not forbidden).

Women learn Torah all the time, in seminaries around the world.

The ritual purity laws have nothing to do with the status of women, men too can be ritually impure, semen like menstrual blood imparts impurity.

If your only form of defence is attack, your position must be weaker than I though.

“However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.”

Why did Muhammed make a big stink about female infanticide? I’m officially confused.
Black Voter 9.02 PM

I simply overlooked Herman’s entry for some reason – possibly it appeared while I was writing my screed and I didn’t read back to the latest postings. The whole of Islam is not in the Koran: there are the hadith, the sira and the body of sharia law and the commentators on the Koran to take into consideration. The Koran is the strongest but not the sole basis of Muslim doctrine.

I can’t remember chapter and verse but I think there is a hadith in which Mohammed is supposed to have said that killing an infant daughter would only be permissible if you knew that she would grow up to become a non-Muslim: since, of course, there is no way of knowing this in advance, killing infant girls was wrong. He was against female infanticide but if, on reaching a responsible age, the girl were to abjure Islam, then all bets were off. It is not much of a leap to cases of girls not being proper Muslims, seeming to adopt non-Muslim practices or lifestyles or being whispered about as breaking sexual taboos.

Why aren’t there more male corpses: there are a few – as often as not they are non-Muslims going out with or seeking to marry Muslim girls (absolutely verboten).

Saeed’s name is a tiny bit threatening: in Xtianity a martyr is someone who dies rather than renounce their faith – in Islam a martyr is someone who is killed in the course of jihad – but then I always think of a child-wife when I see the name Ayesha.

HPBNP, this article was about the treatment of women in *Pakistani* society. You have read Islam into it, while the article author explicitly argues against tarring Muslims with it.

The Talmud says “women are a sack of excrement”

Reference? Sac would make more sense.

Why ?

Because it suggests you see her and Muslim women as independent agents, and not cardboard cut outs to use in your defamatory comments against individuals on HP? I ain’t a psychiatrist, but this sounds like sociopathy. And the actions of a major arsehole.

She clearly wrote the article to address Pakistanis and remind them of the exalted place women, their mothers and sisters have

No. Re-read Sackcloth’s translation or provide us with an ‘accurate’ one.

and how disgraceful it is that even though it is a tiny minority, such things occur.

No. She called it the end link in a long chain.

Like Der Sturmer taking extereme acts of bad Jews

No. It accused all Jews of preternatural evil. Dick.

wally

“I can’t remember chapter and verse but I think there is a hadith in which Mohammed is supposed to have said that killing an infant daughter would only be permissible if you knew that she would grow up to become a non-Muslim:”

you are well named. Would be fascinated if you could produced any evidence for this. But why would you need things like proof?

” since, of course, there is no way of knowing this in advance, killing infant girls was wrong. He was against female infanticide but if, on reaching a responsible age, the girl were to abjure Islam, then all bets were off. It is not much of a leap to cases of girls not being proper Muslims, seeming to adopt non-Muslim practices or lifestyles or being whispered about as breaking sexual taboos.”

bull

“How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his…… Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband…” (San. 71a, Git. 62a)

This is not found in either San 71a or Git 62a

Moderates aren’t the solution, when “we” did role back clerical tyranny it wasn’t because of moderate clerics where installed. The different churches have to be coerced to change, society did secularize and the church have to adopt to that to survive.

The core definition of religious creeds is that they are above criticism. When you put something above criticism, you pave the way for all sorts of taboos while dressing all kinds of obstacles on the way of progress and knowledge. Creeds, any, are certainly not at its core compatible with democracy.

When you grant prophets and creeds holy status, you grant the rulers of the creeds powers they shouldn’t have and certainly not deserve.

A key component is that it must be possible to see the holy books like any book, it must be possible to ridicule and criticize them.

Prophets and governments don’t grant these rights, people have to fight for them and the sad thing is that those who dear to do that in the Muslim world is marginalized and hardly get any publicity. Especially now when the so called progressive elements in the west sided with utterly conservative religious forces.

The Muslim world was more secular and progressive up to the 1960s (and they where still Muslims!), much of the Islamic radicalization have probably not been possible without the flood of petrodollar to the gulf and especially Saudi Arabia.

Its of course ridicules to see every Muslim as a religious animal who spends 24 hours a day, seven days a week, reading the Koran, growing a bushy beard (not so widespread among woman Muslims) and planning the destruction of Western civilization. He doesn’t laugh or smile, he doesn’t fall in love, he doesn’t sing or listen to music, he doesn’t dance, he hates women, flowers, butterflies, birds and about everything that is beautiful. The only thing he really loves is killing Jews and Christians.

There is e.g. homosexuality in the muslim world regardless of what the Qu’ran and/or the Prophet said on the subject and regardless of whether the laws of those countries forbid the practice or not. Some say it’s even more common than in the west, maybe due to the widespread separation 0f the sexes, human do have a need for love, affection no religion in the world can stop that.

Alec Macpherson

“The Talmud says “women are a sack of excrement”
Reference? Sac would make more sense.”

From Jewish fundamentalism in Israel by Jewish scholar Israel Shahak

Shulhan Aruch: “A male should not walk between two females or two dogs or two pigs…” (pp. 37-38), and one from the Talmud “A Woman is a sack full of excrement” (p. 38).

Lovely religion

“If she ate in the street, if she drank greedily in the street, if she suckled in the street, in every case Rabbi Meir says that she must leave her husband” (Git. 89a

Rabbi Akiva disagrees, and Jewish law, does not follow the opinion of Rabbi Meir in this case.

“She clearly wrote the article to address Pakistanis and remind them of the exalted place women, their mothers and sisters have”

“No. Re-read Sackcloth’s translation or provide us with an ‘accurate’ one.”

Oh -cant I have MEMRIs instead

“Like Der Sturmer taking extereme acts of bad Jews
No. It accused all Jews of preternatural evil. Dick.”

Much as Rabbis accuse Arabs of being. But I take it back : HP isnt quite as bad as Der Sturmer

Interesting, our resident Islamist is also a “Talmud Quoter” (a sure proof of neonazi’s sympathies).

“The Talmud has also made it mandatory to divorce a barren wife (who bore no children in a period of ten years): “Our Rabbis taught: If a man took a wife and lived with her for ten years and she bore no child, he shall divorce her” (Yeb. 64a).”

The Talmud cannot make anything mandatory, since it is a recollection of disputes among sages and open to everyday interpretation by them.

In fact, since the XII century, after the decrees of R. Eliecer b. Nathan, men were not forced to divorce their infertile wives and could not take another woman.

HPBNP takes his quotes from David Duke’s page.

==> Israel Shahak

That’s a joke, right?

HPBNP The wondrous treatment of women in Judaism

Hi HPBNP. I remember your great posts from another HP thread.

As a wicked Zionist Israeli Jewboy, I think that Judaism’s basic treatment of women is abominable and that they are in effect second class beings and in many religious Jewish communities are certainly treated as such.

I wanted to ask you what is your opinion of Sharia’s treatment of women using as a base value, the position of the Prophet. (May his name be praised forever and ever and ever). Especially his marriage to Aisha at the age of 6 with the marriage consummated at the age of nine. Furthermore, would you like your own daughter to be married off to some 54 year old heap with the marriage first consummated when this old heap was 57 and probably had a job to get a firm erection. (Viagra wasn’t available then).

I know that the details entailed in this ‘heavenly vision’ may be unsettling to your very delicate frame of mind but bearing in mind your aversion to Judaism, I was wondering how you relate to your own abominations???

wally

“Saeed’s name is a tiny bit threatening: in Xtianity a martyr is someone who dies rather than renounce their faith – in Islam a martyr is someone who is killed in the course of jihad”

You know nothing about Islam. There are numerous ways of being a martyr not just being killed unjustly, including refusing to renounce Islam.

” – but then I always think of a child-wife when I see the name Ayesha.”

I always think Talmud when I see child bride since it says from 3 years an up girls are ready for marriage!

Clap Hammer go take a cold shower

“From Jewish fundamentalism in Israel by Jewish scholar Israel Shahak”

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Cutting and pasting from this gentleman is like cutting and pasting about Christianity from the writings of Satanists.

Israel Shahak knows very little about Judaism, and what he does know is distorted and disfigured by his hatred. His invented quotes and distorted reasoning has been shown to be nonsense by many in the Orthodox Jewish world, for example the late Rabbi Jacobowitz.

You will have to do better than that HPBNP. Or better still grow up.

Oh -cant I have MEMRIs instead

This is code for I don’t have a single fucking piece of proof.

Much as Rabbis accuse Arabs of being.

Are we talking about Rabbis or are we talking about Judaism? Furthermore, are we talking about *all* Rabbis or are we talking about Odious Yosef?

“I always think Talmud when I see child bride since it says from 3 years an up girls are ready for marriage!”

No it doesn’t.

“I always think Talmud when I see child bride since it says from 3 years an up girls are ready for marriage!”

No, it doesn’t (you beat me to it Yossi).

Shahak says it does. Shahak was a known prevaricator.

FabianfroIsarel

“Interesting, our resident Islamist is also a “Talmud Quoter” (a sure proof of neonazi’s sympathies).”

And our resident zionazis are “hadith” or Robert Spencer quoters. (a sure proof of neonazi’s sympathies).

Whats source for the goose…..

Seems zionists want to say “we can quote from extreme anti-Muslim sites which lie and distort Islam- but you cant quote from a Jewish scholar like Israel Shahak”

Ah the joys of choseness! Absolves you from dealing justly with people

“HPBNP takes his quotes from David Duke’s pag”

No from Holocaust survivor Israel Shahak.

Yawn yes because whenever anyone criticises the vile religion of Judaism (including direct quotes from the Bible and Talmud) they are accused of “racism” -though Judaism isnt a race, by the same hyporites who will constantly bleat “Islam/Muslims arent a race”

You people really are jokers -you demand no criticism of Israel or Judaism while attacking other Nations and religions with impunity

“Yawn yes because whenever anyone criticises the vile religion of Judaism (including direct quotes from the Bible and Talmud)”

The Talmud is here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

Find me the quotes.

Fabian from Israel – The Talmud cannot make anything mandatory, since it is a recollection of disputes among sages and open to everyday interpretation by them.

The Talmud cannot make anything mandatory

But only because it cannot. In Israel it is a secondary source for law. (Thank goodness). Any new law cannot conflict with ‘human rights’ legislation.

If Shass or Aguda ever had the political leverage, adulterers, (women only), would be stoned as would homosexuals and other ‘transgressors. You must know this to be true.

Our Haredi Rabbis are not less blood thirsty than the Mullahs of Iran or the Khadis of Saudi Arabia. There are constant public expressions of hatred from them against homosexuals and prostitutes.

Our Haredi Rabbis are not less corrupt than the mad mullahs of Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Our Haredi Rabbis are not less bigoted than the mad mullahs of Iran and Saudi Arabia.

They want power and a few judicious killings would not in any way deter them or worry their social conscience.

Fabian from Israel

“No, it doesn’t (you beat me to it Yossi).
Shahak says it does. Shahak was a known prevaricator.”

Yes it does. Shahak merely quotes from the Talmud. Or ar you accusing an Aushwitz survivor of lying?

Here are the pages from the Talmud. Undeniable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zHjls2GIc

How can Jews justify this?

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

“including direct quotes from the Bible and Talmud”

I’m sure you meant to say;

“including direct fabricated quotes from the Bible and Talmud”.

As a Frum Jew, I can quite honestly say, there is no end of criticism of Judaism on Harry’s Place, and religion in general.

Many posters on here, have many issues with Judaism and have debated with me regarding them during the short time I have been posting on here.

I’m not at all bothered by this (but saddened a little when the detractors are Jews themselves).

I suggest you learn to defend your position HPBNP, instead of changing the subject and throwing around invented or distorted quotes.

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)”

Firstly yes Israel Shahak did lie, many times, and was proven to have done so, in the fake Shabbos telephone call incident.

Secondly the verse from Deuteronomy you refer to is not referring to rape, it is referring to a man seducing a woman, taking advantage of her, if they are caught he has a responsibility to her, and must marry her, but if the woman does not want to marry him, or her father does not want her to marry him, then there is no marriage.

The Talmud says quite clearly in tractate Sanhedrin, that it is the obligation on all people to prevent the rape of a woman, even if it means killing the rapist.

The brothers of Dina killed all the men of Shechem because of her rape.

Or ar you accusing an Aushwitz survivor of lying?

No. He is, however, calling a Belsen-survivor of lying on a particular subject.

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

How often is this enacted?

HPBNP

You people really are jokers -you demand no criticism of Israel or Judaism while attacking other Nations and religions with impunity.

Judaism expounds some awful things HPBNP and I see that you have ‘boned up’ on the subject. I find many cruel abomnations there.

Islam has many abominations from sexual to social. Do you find them abominable HPBNP???? A simple Yes or No will suffice at the moment.

You see. I see Islam as the greatest threat to peace at this present time. It is holding hundreds of millions of people captive in a failed belief system that regards education as dangerous and curiosity as a threat to itself. Especially when the curiosity is directed at Islam itself. Many of those hundreds of millions are in ‘captive poverty’ yet Islam claims that they are victims. The non achievement of Muslim countries is obvious for so many to see. The base cruelty in some Muslim countries is so easy to see. Especially their rank cruelty to women who are half buried and stoned by a baying crowd crying Allah Akbar while throwing the stones.

Stoning by righteous persons

AND

The Young Marriage of ‘Aishah

I have many more HPBNP.

“If Shass or Aguda ever had the political leverage, adulterers, (women only), would be stoned as would homosexuals and other ‘transgressors. You must know this to be true.”

Actually you are wrong. I can’t speak for Shas, but in the case of the Agudah, any capital punishment will have to wait for the coming of Moshiach. You don’t believe this will happen, so you don’t have to worry.

And in all of Jewish history, I don’t think any homosexual was ever stoned by the way.

“If Shass or Aguda ever had the political leverage, adulterers, (women only), would be stoned as would homosexuals and other ‘transgressors. You must know this to be true.”

Apparently, it is not true. Any capital punishment in Judaism needs to be approved by a legitimate Sanhedrin, which has not existed since the first or second century of our age and it is practically impossible to recreate.

YossiUK – And in all of Jewish history, I don’t think any homosexual was ever stoned by the way.

OK Yossi. I bow to your greater knowledge.

Death is the punishment. Shas MKs have said so and called for it. So how were gays killed in the times of the ‘Tanach’. (Please. No squirming – we are all adults here.)

Tell us Yossi so that we can be wiser.

“Death is the punishment. Shas MKs have said so and called for it. So how were gays killed in the times of the ‘Tanach’. (Please. No squirming – we are all adults here.)”

The Tanach is not a code of law. And especially not for rabinic Judaism.

Well Clap Hammer, the prohibition that has a capital punishment is Anal sex between men. Any type of man, gay straight, bi, etc.

In order for this punishment to be carried out, there must be 2 witnesses to the act who, prior to witnessing the act, gave a warning that the activity is forbidden, and that if they engage in it, they will be liable to death.

As the rules of evidence are so tight, no men involved in anal sex were put to death.

Men involved in any other form of sexual contact with each other, may be violating Jewish law, but are not subject to punishment.

Shas MK’s have called for a whole lot of things, and are ignored by most. And for every Shas MK calling for hatred towards homosexuals, you find many Hasidic Rebbes and Non-Hasidic Rosh Yeshivas calling for tolerance and compassion to Homosexuals.

Lesbianism is kosher!

Fabian from Israel The Tanach is not a code of law. And especially not for rabinic Judaism.

Fabian from Israel. You are being evasive. Let other posters know how gays and adulterers and other social transgressors were actually killed by Jewish religious authorities WHEN they had this judicial power.

In other words. What is the punishment for adulterers etc, homosexuals and others in Jewish law as percieved by Jewish religious leaders etc in the times of the Tanach. Enlighten me. Enlighten other posters. So that we may know the truth.

Oh dear.

HPBNP. You seem to have fallen silent. Was it something I said????

“In other words. What is the punishment for adulterers etc, homosexuals and others in Jewish law as percieved by Jewish religious leaders etc in the times of the Tanach. Enlighten me. Enlighten other posters. So that we may know the truth..”

Again there is no punishment for Homosexuals as such, just for one type of activity between men.

But yes Judaism did have capital punishments. No one is denying that.

I wasn’t being evasive, clap. I just thought that you thought that if Shas came to power in the State of Israel, then the law will be changed to a “Tanach Law”, and there is no such thing.

YossiUK – Shas MK’s have called for a whole lot of things, and are ignored by most. And for every Shas MK calling for hatred towards homosexuals, you find many Hasidic Rebbes and Non-Hasidic Rosh Yeshivas calling for tolerance and compassion to Homosexuals.

Thank you for that explanation. I admit to being ignorant of in depth Halacha. The persons who I have known in the past who claim to attempt to govern their personal actions by ‘Halacha’ have so disgusted me generally with their personal behavior that I have never been interested in learning more. As the personal behavior of so many religious persons of all faiths tends to disgust me. (Catholic and Muslim).

My understanding of Hasidic Rebbes and such is that if they ever did obtain serious political power, (power, not influence), I would probably leave Israel and I feel many others would follow HPBNP would have his way.

Fabian from Israel I wasn’t being evasive, clap. I just thought that you thought that if Shas came to power in the State of Israel, then the law will be changed to a “Tanach Law”, and there is no such thing.

OK Fabian.

Let’s get back to HPBNP.

Oh dear. He seems to have called it a day. I suspect that he only travels abroad at night and only where there is no garlic around.

the difference is Rasta lion, that such men are prosecuted in the UK*, not sanctioned to perform domestic violence+ by a Jorge.
*Unless the new Shari courts operating in the UK are able to convince the women to drop the cases.
+ I also think we need to draw a distinction between pathetic men who beat their wives (and indeed kill them) and organised violence by groups of men against women (such as abducted young women who have broken a “moral code” and then burying them alive with a digger).
In one society the former is opposed as a default by civil society, in the other the latter is a life or death struggle for feminists.

NeilD,
Interesting use of the word ‘jirga’ here won’t you say?
If the evil being perpetrated against these women were religiously-sanctioned as seem to be the arguments of idiots like JohnP, then the edicts to enforce it would most certainly be issued by Shariah councils rather Jirgas.

Muslim women in the UK are not under any obligation to take their cases to the Shariah courts. I am confident that you are fully aware of this fact, but want to pretend otherwise.

There is no distinction between abusers; abuse is just abuse, plain and simple whether the perpetrator happened to a Quran reciting lunatic or liberal minded ‘civilised’ western man.

Islam is not monolithic and neither are its adherents a homogenous subspecies of humans. So to argue or pretend that what obtains in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia is also true for Senegal or Morocco is the height of folly and tantamount to Muslim-hatred. Perhaps you can help me drum this little fact into the the thick skulls of the likes of JohnP.

“Thank you for that explanation. I admit to being ignorant of in depth Halacha. The persons who I have known in the past who claim to attempt to govern their personal actions by ‘Halacha’ have so disgusted me generally with their personal behavior that I have never been interested in learning more. As the personal behavior of so many religious persons of all faiths tends to disgust me. (Catholic and Muslim).

My understanding of Hasidic Rebbes and such is that if they ever did obtain serious political power, (power, not influence), I would probably leave Israel and I feel many others would follow HPBNP would have his way.”

Firstly I do understand that the personal behaviour of individual Frum Jews can and does leave a bad taste in the mouth. We are not monolithic, and just because we have a set of values doesn’t mean that people obey them, and live the way they should. I myself included, that is why we have the month of Ellul, and Rosh HaShana, and the 10 days of repentance, and Yom Kippur etc, to try and better ourselves.

I also understand, that you have a different set of values, which in some places clash with traditional Jewish values, and that if Hasidic Rebbes came to power, you would leave Israel, I pray that you never feel you have to do so.

The only thing I can say to you, is please look up on YouTube, Rabbi Grossman, or Migdal Ohr, perhaps this is a side of haredi life, you are not aware of.

I recommend this

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CRMavn2APfs

ami’s observation is an important one.

This current approach to social reform in the case of women and Muslim communities in the UK comes from the (anglo-american) ‘centre for Islamic Pluralism’

There have been numerous reformist movements in Islam both social and political and in approaches to scriptural understandings.

Because of the location of Sharia within, principally, the Sunna there is a fundamental problem with Islamic fundamentalism or scriptural rigidity claiming to be literal (the Koran is incredibly difficult to translate because about one fifth of the text has no consensual meaning attributed to the core Uthman text (this is partly to do with the canonical version having no diacritical marks for vowels or grammar so many possible meanings can be constructed).

It is ironic that the wahabi’s/Salfafi 18thC reform movement should be so literal about a text that is literally very difficult to read and far from clear.

However the real source of a stranglehold on islamic reform is quite simply that the Wahbi conquest and deseacration of Mecca and Medina (and Karbala and Najaf and the subsequent massacres) at first finally overthrown by the Ottomans who had lost a prescence in Southern Arabia because of European hostility and competition in the Gulf and Indian ocean, finally came to state power through the house of Saud with British connivance.

The heterogenous hadj of the Ottomans reinforced their wealth and power with two annual huge pilgrimmages, early reality shows, from Damascus and Cairo, which cemented the idea of an Umma and payed small fortunes in subsidies to the dessert tribes.

The increasingly tribal, and fractious, Arabia had reverted to an earlier social organisation and had reduced the ancient agricultural arena of Mesopotamia replacing much with nomadic patroralism, were at least kept whithin the fold of an Ottoman Islam.

Since the end of WWI and increasingly WWII, Saudi Arabia has been conquered by what could be described analogously to one of Calvinist style reformation where Calvin killed the pope and is now occfupying the Vatican.

Saudi Arabia stage manages the Hadj and stage manages Islam by subsidising the propogation of Islam.

Approximately 90% of all religious education, cultural resources and training of Imams etc is paid for by Saudi Arabia.

And it seeks to impose (so far effectively) its reactionary cult on the entire body of Islam.

Of course there are many Muslim reformers, and always have been.

But the plight of not just of theological reformers but all social reformers especially those directed at the emancipation of women live in a perilous world where they are not only denounced by Muslim scholars (one way or another largely subsidised by Saudi Arabia) but are also targetted for attack by Islamist movements that too have always been supported by Saudi Arabia.

The Muslim Brotherhood may be of Egyptian origin but its haven and its pay check is in Saudi Arabia.

Ultimately all roads to reform lie through Mecca (as the Hadj is the central motif in all the various forms of islam) and it must be liberated from tyrannical sectarianism and re=established as an international Muslim ‘free state’ where it could become again a great centre of Muslim pluralism.

—————–

But for a salutary tale of what happens to (in this case an Egyptian) who tries to use techniques of higher criticism on the Koran (methodologies that are common to Christian and jewish Scrptural scholarship)

The Nasr Abu Zayd case

Zayd suffered major religious persecution for his views on the Qur’an as a religious, mythical, literary work. In 1995, he was promoted to the rank of full professor, but Islamic controversies about his academic work led to a court decision of apostasy and the denial of the appointment. A hisbah trial started against him by fundamentalist Islamic scholars, he was declared a heretic (Murtadd) by an Egyptian court, was consequently declared divorced from his wife, Cairo University French Literature professor Dr. Ibthal Younis (since, according to Sharia law, it is not permissible for her to be married to a non-Muslim) and, in effect, forced out of his homeland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd

HPBNP,
There was a case this revealed this week of a 9 year old Muslim girl being taken into care in the Midlands because her parents were trying to force her into marriage. The problem of child brides occurs in many parts of the Muslim world – the practice of marrying children was recommended by Khomeini, who had the marriageable age of girls lowered to nine when he took power in Iran. Whose example (a sinless man, a moral exemplar for all time) are all these people following?

Somehow examples of Muslims dying for attesting their faith and obtaining the status of martyr by other means have been pushed very much to one side in anyone’s consciousness amidst the flurry of martyrdom operations that have been carried out since 1983.

What little I know about Islam I have been forced to learn because Muslim apologists I have come across on the web or in print do not seem always to be entirely honest about about what they really believe and about the effects their religion has had historically, socially, politically etc.

Islam is not monolithic and neither are its adherents a homogenous subspecies of humans. So to argue or pretend that what obtains in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia is also true for Senegal or Morocco is the height of folly and tantamount to Muslim-hatred. Perhaps you can help me drum this little fact into the the thick skulls of the likes of JohnP.

How wonderfully ‘understanding’ and enlightened you are compared to me!

Islam is neither monolithic, nor a race, but all muslims read the same hate-filled ‘theological’ texts, whether they be from Senegal of Bangladesh.

Islam is, however, universalist in that every place in which it has been imposed is characterised by backwardness, ignorance and studied lethargy in every field of human endevour.

What is the combined GNP of every islamic country put together? What have any of them created or invented or discovered lately?

Particularly appalling seeings these backward regions, pre-islam, were once beacons of enlightenment, progress and advancement for ALL of humanity.

And criticising this retardation for its obvious second-class treatment of women, gays and minorities of all sorts is well waranted.

The penchant for both Arabs and Pakistanis to engage in the disgusting practice of inbreeding ( gawd they’re enlightened!) should be denounced as well.

Why should westerners pay through the nose to treat the costly health problemes arising from inbreeding?

How can you make supremacist, chauvinist individuals, individuals who feel they’re perfect and who therefore have no sense of shame, aware of their utter degeneracy and barbarism?

I am not trying to defend the treatment of women in ultra orthodox Judaism, or indeed in sects like the Plymouth Brethren. I just want to that honour killings, forced marriages, child marriage, female circumcision, wearing the full hijab, denying women education, polygamy etc are local cultural traditions which have been co opted by local Muslim religious leaders and then justified/enforced on religious grounds.

Indeed as mettaculture points out, in the case of Saudia Arabia they have used the country’s oil wealth to see to impose their more extreme traditions as part of Islam, onto poorer countries in exchange for foreign aid.

The question then is how to disentangle the two. No passage in the Koran discusses honour killings, but Muslim clerics justify them and secular Muslims either do not punish them or pass laws to mitigate punishment for them. With this, Muslims make honour killings a part of Islam.

Take Jordan, the Jordanian monarchy, being relatively enlightened, has tried to ban honour killings in law and seen this rejected by their legislature who are frightened of opposing conservative religious leaders who advocate it as sanctioned by Islam.

The Islamic Action Front (the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan) declared that the proposal to introduce harsh laws against honour-killers “would destroy our Islamic, social and family values by stripping men of their humanity when they surprise their wives or female relatives committing adultery.” Also they declared that honour killing is an Islamic duty and justified his their actions by the fact that Mohammed advocated stoning for adultery.

Sadly this sort of attitude appears to hold a widespread acceptance by young male asians in the UK. In 2006 the BBC Asian Networkreported that one in 10 young British Asians believes so-called honour killings can be justified.

Indeed if we replace tribe by gang the concept of defending the honour of the group can be seen behind many of the recent knife killings by gang members in the UK.

Wally. I think I must have offended HPBNP. He seems to have disappeared. (Sigh – cough).

John P

“The penchant for both Arabs and Pakistanis to engage in the disgusting practice of inbreeding ( gawd they’re enlightened!) should be denounced as well.”

But not that of Ashkenazi Jews. That would be anti-semitic

“Why should westerners pay through the nose to treat the costly health problemes arising from inbreeding?”

Ah yes the far right notion that Muslims somehow dont pay taxes. Didnt you read section 114b of Eurabia John? We are exempt from all taxes.

One could easily make the opposite argument -why should Muslims pay for the astronomical costs of alcoholism or STDs in Western countries since they dont generally indulge in them? Thats how absurd you and your arguments are

“How can you make supremacist, chauvinist individuals, individuals who feel they’re perfect and who therefore have no sense of shame, aware of their utter degeneracy and barbarism?”

Im trying with you John Im trying.
And why are you calling Ashenzi Jews, who practice cousin marriages, such things?

Mrs Ben

“The question then is how to disentangle the two. No passage in the Koran discusses honour killings, but Muslim clerics justify them and secular Muslims either do not punish them or pass laws to mitigate punishment for them. With this, Muslims make honour killings a part of Islam.”

An absolute lie. Honor killings have been denounced by Muslim scholars from day one. The fact you can drag up some non entity and claim they speak for 1 bn Muslims proves nothing

Wally. I think I must have offended HPBNP. He seems to have disappeared. (Sigh – cough).

Or perhaps his gone to stormfront to brush up on his knowledge of the Talmud.

9 year old Muslim girl being taken into care in the Midlands because her parents were trying to force her into marriage.

I think it was a case of her being betrothed to her cousin rather than actually being forced to marry him. Not that this should be tolerated or even encouraged in the slightest.

What I find most encouraging though is that fact that this vile practice is being fought against by…., you would never have guessed it, Asian women themselves and not some patronising twits.
Jasvinder Sanghera and her wonderful Karma Nirvana charity are doing a commendable job.
Another interesting point of note: Jas, herself escaped an arranged/forced marriage when she was 14/5, but importantly; she doesn’t come from a Muslim background. Could the practice then perhaps have something to do with culture in addition to religion?

wally

HPBNP,
“There was a case this revealed this week of a 9 year old Muslim girl being taken into care in the Midlands because her parents were trying to force her into marriage. The problem of child brides occurs in many parts of the Muslim world – the practice of marrying children was recommended by Khomeini, who had the marriageable age of girls lowered to nine when he took power in Iran.”

wow so one alleged case in the UK and Iran represents the whole Muslim world

” Whose example (a sinless man, a moral exemplar for all time) are all these people following?”

The way you tell it its as if this was unknown and Islam came and mandated this rather than marriage at a young age being the norm in virtually all pre-modern socities particularly Semitic ones (see the marriages of the Jewish patriachs) and that Muslims who do this do so because the religion calls for it rather than it being the cultural practice of their area.

You also fundamentally misunderstand the role of the Prophet. As a human being the Prophet did certain things that were the cultural norms of his society such as speaking Arabic, eating particular food, dressing a particular way and marriage. We arent oligated to follow his culturally specific actions but rather to follow his commands as a Prophet. There is no hadith or verse of the Quran saying “marry girls” -though there is encouragemnt to marry early past puberty.

HPBNP

“The way you tell it its as if this was unknown and Islam came and mandated this rather than marriage at a young age being the norm in virtually all pre-modern socities particularly Semitic ones (see the marriages of the Jewish patriachs) and that Muslims who do this do so because the religion calls for it rather than it being the cultural practice of their area.”

Incidentally to reiterate this point child marriage is also common amongst Hindus in India.

Koppers

“Or perhaps his gone to stormfront to brush up on his knowledge of the Talmud.”

Yawn. Totally untrue. The irony of it is of course that Stormfront are HP fans ! They recommend Neil D’s articles
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/sharia-answer-everything-499580.html

Since most Jews get their knowledge of Islam from extereme anti-Muslim sources (including people like Ali Sina who call for the genocide of Muslims) Ive always found their objections to gentiles doing exactly the same as they do (learning Judaism from people who arent too fond of Jews) rather curious and hypocritical. Why is it OK for you and not others?

The mainstream Jewish athiest Sam Harris said the best people talking about Islam were the fascists. So why not the best people talking about Judaism? You seem to be saying- its OK for us to learn from fascists when they demonise Islam but Judaism.. thats a no no

Another aspect of choseness I guess

“The mainstream Jewish athiest Sam Harris said the best people talking about Islam were the fascists. So why not the best people talking about Judaism? You seem to be saying- its OK for us to learn from fascists when they demonise Islam but Judaism.. thats a no no”

What and Sam Harris is a Jewish authority figure? He has no problem in condemning Judaism, which he despises along with all religion.

His view of Islam was not derived from fascist sources, it is his view, based on his own understanding of the religion. I’m not saying he is right, he is wrong on most things.

Most Jews don’t source their information on Islam from extreme anti-Muslims sites. Most Jews don’t know much about Islam and care even less. Those Jews who do form an opinion, and there are many shades of opinion, form it based on what they see occurring in the Muslim world, and based on what they hear emanating from the mouths of Muslims world wide.

Besides why focus only on Jews? The majority of the non-Muslim world bases their view on Islam by the actions of Muslims, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed in the name of Islam, the opinion of many non-Muslims is somewhat negative.

its interesting that i get attacked even though i actively Support women who are fighting aginst this sort of thing…Harrys place attracts such a lovely crowd…

HPBNP – You also fundamentally misunderstand the role of the Prophet. As a human being the Prophet did certain things that were the cultural norms of his society such as speaking Arabic, eating particular food, dressing a particular way and marriage. We arent oligated to follow his culturally specific actions but rather to follow his commands as a Prophet. There is no hadith or verse of the Quran saying “marry girls” -though there is encouragemnt to marry early past puberty.

Strange. Iran lowered the age of marriage for girls specifically to enable old farts to marry 9 year old girls. Still, HPBNP, Iran is not Islam. Is it???? What is the age that females can be married in Suadi Arabia HPBNP???

Muslims really enjoy confusing. This is cultural and that is part of Islam. FGM is not Islamic but is defended by so many Muslim clerics. Omar Bakri in particular. Honor killings are cultural but, it seems, many religious leaders in Egypt do see it as part and parcel of Islam.

It is so confusing for those of us who do not follow the teachings of the Prophet to know what he actually wanted. Many Muslims seem confused too. Especially whether gays should be thrown off mountains or just stoned. (to death).

Most strands of Jewish and Christian life have long since dispensed with literal interpretations of their holy books, particularly with regard to treatment of women. So comparing their holy books to Islam’s holy books is disingenuous. if you compare the treatment of women by most jews and christians today to that in major sectors of islamic world, there is no comparison, as you well know. what your endless references to ancient jewish texts do is serve to reveal your unwilligness to face present reality and, of course, your extreme anti-semitism (i.e. judeophobia).

Saeed’s answer includes the real demand that Islamists alway have, that there should be no criticism of Islam. He says join organizations, but shut up and never criticisize. I don’t think that’s at all helpful.

No it doesn’t…if you want to criticise/slag off, take the piss out of islam its your right…people have the right to freedom of speech…stop making silly assumptions…all muslims aren’t what you think they are like…why not go out and meet some…

Ah, bless, IAMC18 is back. Let’s see, he (? [1]) has thus far:

a) responded to an article about brutalized Pakistani women by rabbiting on about Islam;

b) responded to an article about brutalized Pakistani women by a Pakistani woman bewailing the official and social tolerance of such behaviour by presuming to speak for said Pakistani woman (whose article this specimen has likely not read, in the original or translation), whom we are to believe was endorsing a respected status for women which – widespread, unpunished acid-splashing aside – apparently exists in Pakistan;

c) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by citing five year old (unverified) legislation which ‘prove’ the relevant societies have been tackling extreme misogynistic violence since, at least, the early 21st Century;

d) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by claiming the election of a high-born Western-educated woman to a highly corrupt system, and whose administration went on to bankroll the Taleban, is evidence of respect for and protection of dirt-poor lower-class women;

e) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by speaking approvingly of mutilation of convicted criminals in Muslim countries with the inference that this was evidence of Muslims’ humanity and progressiveness;

f) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by launching a broadside against Judaism and Jews individually;

g) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by speaking approvingly of Qisa law when, judging by everything else, eye-for-eye in Judaism would be cited as evidence of the depravity of this religion and its adherents;

h) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by launching a broadside against Judaism and Jews individually;

i) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by citing Israel Shahak as an authority on Judaism;

j) responded to a thread about brutalized Pakistani women by claiming Amos 3:2 speaks of Choseness.

Points a) to e) indicate this is one racist fuck who is scared of Muslims and thinks they’re capable only of extreme violence. Points f) to j) indicate this is one racist fuck who loathes Jews.

[1] I have a memory of this being a woman. Is that right? Does cuntishness know no gender barriers?

Point taken Alec

HPBNP

One could easily make the opposite argument -why should Muslims pay for the astronomical costs of alcoholism or STDs in Western countries since they dont generally indulge in them?

I think you are looking at the Muslim community through rose-tinted glasses. You may regard this as hearsay but I see a loads of Muslim men, of all generations, buying alcohol from a local mini-market shop – almost invariably spirits. A lot of local Asian men are also known to be in the business of selling drugs.

Since most Jews get their knowledge of Islam from extereme anti-Muslim sources (including people like Ali Sina who call for the genocide of Muslims)

Not that I’ve read him for years I certainly wasn’t aware the Ali Sina had called for the genocide of Muslims. Do you have a link?

I’m sure it is easy to take what’s written in the Koran completely out of context. For example the one oft cited by Islam bashers and Islamists is words to the effect “kill the Jews wherever you may find them….”. I don’t profess to know much about Islam but I’m sure this has nothing to do with modern times but was actually referring to a time when Mohammed and his followers were in conflict with the Jews of Arabia.

The mainstream Jewish athiest Sam Harris said the best people talking about Islam were the fascists.

Meaning what exacly? My understanding is that Sam Harris is equally scathing of all religions.

So why not the best people talking about Judaism? You seem to be saying- its OK for us to learn from fascists when they demonise Islam but Judaism.. thats a no no

Criticise Judaism all you like – I don’t believe anything should be above criticism or ridicule – free speech should be enshrined in law. Even if it does include Holocaust denial, mocking of Christ, Mohammed or Moses.

Personally I’m not interested in dissing Islam. The Islamist’s, now that’s a different matter.

Saeed

“No it doesn’t…if you want to criticise/slag off, take the piss out of islam its your right…people have the right to freedom of speech…stop making silly assumptions…all muslims aren’t what you think they are like…why not go out and meet some…”

Do the Palestinians kids used for target practice count?

—————————————–

vildechaye
“what your endless references to ancient jewish texts do is serve to reveal your unwilligness to face present reality and, of course, your extreme anti-semitism (i.e. judeophobia).”

except there are parties in the Israel (and in Christianitys case US) govt which literally believe these things and based their foreign and domestic policies on them.

My God the whole basis of zionism in Palestine and the theft of Palestinian land is “God gave us this land in the Bible” and you wank8rs wanna criticise otehrs for taking scripture literally!!!

——————————————
YossiUK

” The majority of the non-Muslim world bases their view on Islam by the actions of Muslims, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed in the name of Islam, the opinion of many non-Muslims is somewhat negative.”

Europe 1930s The majority of the non-Jewish world bases their view on Jews/Judaism by the actions of Jews, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed by Jews, the opinion of many non-Jews is somewhat negative.

YossiUK

“What and Sam Harris is a Jewish authority figure? He has no problem in condemning Judaism, which he despises along with all religion.”

Think you need to chat to Stormfronts hero Neil D:

” In fact, they (the government) need to start listening to Britsh Muslim women like Shaista Gohar, Diane Nammi and ex-muslim women Ayaa Hirsi Ali and Maryam Nawaazi..who all strongly oppose Sharia law. ”

Neil D
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/09/23/sharia-courts-what-should-our-response-be/

“My God the whole basis of zionism in Palestine and the theft of Palestinian land is “God gave us this land in the Bible” and you wank8rs wanna criticise otehrs for taking scripture literally!!!”

Goodness me you seem to be adding ignorance to your list of flaws as well as unmitigated hatred.

Israel was founded in the land of Israel/Palestine, because of the HISTORICAL fact that the land was the nation state of the Jews 2000 years ago. The founding fathers of the state of Israel were mostly non religious at best, and many were atheist.

“Europe 1930s The majority of the non-Jewish world bases their view on Jews/Judaism by the actions of Jews, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed by Jews, the opinion of many non-Jews is somewhat negative.”

No the majority of anti Semites before the war based their view of Jews on the lies and conspiracies told about them by political leaders, the church etc. Ideas which unsurprisingly you now broadcast yourself.

Do the Palestinians kids used for target practice count?

Groan, you cheapen you posts when you come out with such unfettered crap.

Europe 1930s The majority of the non-Jewish world bases their view on Jews/Judaism by the actions of Jews, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed by Jews, the opinion of many non-Jews is somewhat negative.

The majority of the non-Jewish world? Puhleeze. You are being silly now.

Wally,

Hmmm. I dont know. I think you should reorient yourself with the sources of Islamic doctrine and have patience. Just because it isnt a Western tradition doesnt mean it doesnt deserve your careful consideration.

HPBNP answer this point about the Abrahamic religions from vildechaye:-

Most strands of Jewish and Christian life have long since dispensed with literal interpretations of their holy books, particularly with regard to treatment of women.

I could add homosexuality, adultery, apostasy etc to the mix.

It’s the literal interpretation and implementation of religious law or texts, in modern times, which sets Christianity and Judaism apart from Islam.

I honestly think there is nothing more to be said to this antisemite. The hatred is so profound, the desire to pervert the discussion and malevolent joy in taunting Jews so intense that nothing, other than a fist in the face, will make us feel better.

The brothers of Dina killed all the men of Shechem because of her rape.

That’s not what Anita Diamant said!

“That’s not what Anita Diamant said!”

You will have to forgive me, I have not read Anita Diamant’s books, so am unaware of what she said on the issue of Dina. I’m just going on what the Torah says, what is brought down in the Talmud and what is expounded on by many Midrashim.

On your point about debating with HPBMP, I do agree. He/She, is unable to discuss any point put to him/her, and instead changes the subject by flinging accusations (most nonsense) at everyone else.

saeed,

“its interesting that i get attacked even though i actively Support women who are fighting aginst this sort of thing…Harrys place attracts such a lovely crowd…”

I support you.

“wow so one alleged case [marriage of 9 yr old girls] in the UK and Iran represents the whole Muslim world” -HPBNP

I said it was a problem in many parts of Islamic world, since it was a point tangential to this thread i did not want to wander off into a lengthy screed on the subject.
see:

Afghanistan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/7342902.stm

Yemen:
http://www.globalenvision.org/2008/06/30/child-brides-speak-out

Bangladesh:
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14756087

Saudi:
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/528953-campaigners-in-new-call-over-saudi-child-brides

The following countries are those with the highest rate of pre 15yr old marriage of girls:

1 Bangladesh 52.5
2 Niger 37.6
3 Chad 34.9
4 Ethiopia 31.4
5 India 30.9
6 Nigeria 30.6
7 Mauritania 29.3
8 Mali 25.1
9 Guinea 23.5
10 Mozambique 21.7
11 Cameroon 20.1
12 Eritrea 19.7
13 Uganda 15.9
14 Nepal 15.3
15 Nicaragua
(some countries such as Afghanistan are not included because of insufficient data)

from:
http://www.worldvision.org/resources.nsf/main/early-marriage.pdf/$file/early-marriage.pdf

Countiries happening to belong to the OIC seem rather over-represented don’t you think? Clearly poverty and local tradition play their part but religion seems to have reinforced rather than weakened these customs.

Wishing you all a Happy New Year. May G-d grant you all a sweet and pleasant year.

YossiUK

“Israel was founded in the land of Israel/Palestine, because of the HISTORICAL fact that the land was the nation state of the Jews 2000 years ago”

The historical fact mentioned only in the Bible. The absuridity of taking someone elses land because God gave it to you in the Bible or you once allegedly ruled it 2000 years before is probably lost on you in your fanaticism

“. The founding fathers of the state of Israel were mostly non religious at best, and many were atheist.”

who justification for their theft of this particular small piece of land (when much more land was available elsewhere) was based on the Jewish Bible

This is the opening of the Israeli UDI

“The land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world. ”

HPBNP

Europe 1930s The majority of the non-Jewish world bases their view on Jews/Judaism by the actions of Jews, and sadly as over the last few years there have been many examples of atrocities committed by Jews, the opinion of many non-Jews is somewhat negative.

“No the majority of anti Semites before the war based their view of Jews on the lies and conspiracies told about them by political leaders, the church etc. Ideas which unsurprisingly you now broadcast yourself.”

LOL I said non-Jewish you said “anti semites” – bit off a revealing slip ey? Peoples hostility to Jews was encouraged by the media of its day in the church and the papers -much as hostility towards Muslims is today, which you seek to justify and HP does its bit to promote.

Many Jews are simply unable to see that the hatred towards Europe’s Muslims is just as the hatred towards Europes Jews was.
This is simply a facet of a supremacy complex.

This one can only assume is because they dont see all hatreds as being equal and consider anti-semitism the worst hatred because Jews are the best people. It even relates to the Holocaust where they will devalue the suffering of other groups such as gypsies , simply because they are non-Jews

HPBNP,
There is a list of the 15 countries with the highest rate of pre 15 year old marriages in the world at:

http://www.worldvision.org/resources.nsf/main/early-marriage.pdf/$file/early-marriage.pdf

Notice how many are OIC members.(some countries, like Afghanistan don’t supply enough data to feature)

Admittedly poverty, local custom and lack of education play their part but try googling “nine year old” and “bride” and see how many stories from different Muslim countries crop up.

HPBNP.

As logical argument is lost on your hate filled mind, I shall limit my self to pointing out the total, unmitigated historical ignorance you display.

Jewish self rule in Palestine is attested to, in the writings of the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians the Babylonians and the Persians. And confirmed by many archaeological studies also.

That is the reason why a modern secular Jewish state was founded in the Land of Israel.

You can shout theft of land as much as you want, it just makes you sound very silly, and somewhat maniacal.

I shall always be amazed at the power of hatred to deny even the most established facts.

The historical fact mentioned only in the Bible. The absuridity of taking someone elses land because God gave it to you in the Bible or you once allegedly ruled it 2000 years before is probably lost on you in your fanaticism

Can you please supply details of ONE — just ONE dunam of ‘Palestian’ land that was ‘taken by force’ in the creation of the State of Israel.

wally

“Admittedly poverty, local custom and lack of education play their part but try googling “nine year old” and “bride” and see how many stories from different Muslim countries crop up.”

You simply dont get it. If you did a search of papers in the 1920s for “Christian crime” and then “Jewish crime” the later would far outweigh the former. Does that mean Jewish crime exceeded Christian crime ? Does that mean all the stories of Jewish crime were true?

The news media in English and in the blogosphere is obsessed with Muslim stories and demonising Muslims , not other groups. So you will get hundreds of times more coverage of the gang rape of Muktar Mai in Pakistan than the mass gang rape of Muslim women Gujurat by Hindu mobs in 2002.

But what am I doing? HP is part of that same media stream!

BTW your link didnt work

HPBNP

You simply dont get it. If you did a search of papers in the 1920s for “Christian crime” and then “Jewish crime” the later would far outweigh the former.

Evidence?

Does that mean Jewish crime exceeded Christian crime ? Does that mean all the stories of Jewish crime were true?

What stories of Jewish crime?

You’ve lost the plot.

Many Jews are simply unable to see that the hatred towards Europe’s Muslims is just as the hatred towards Europes Jews was.
This is simply a facet of a supremacy complex.

Listen you soppy, self-pitying loser, the Jews of the 1930s didn’t fly airplanes into office buildings, bash gays (while screaming “Yaweh is great”) or bomb subways the way islamists have.

Radical Muslims are not the ‘new Jews’, they are the new nazis…and are just as filthy and just as pagan.

Now fuck-off back to whatever backward shithole you crawled out of.

Of course — if anyone doubted it — pretty much all of HPBNP’s references to the Talmud are bogus. This calumnies are simply recirculated again and again on the web and some people without the means to verify the claims come to believe them. For people genuinely interested in what the Talmud is and what it contains, here are some straightforward, informative sites:

http://www.ucalgary.com/~elsegal/TalmudMap/Gemara.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/talmud

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=32&letter=T

And here is a site (with specific links) to debunk the kind of antisemitic distortions that are peddled on neo-Nazi and Islamist hate sites:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/intro.html
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/links.html
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/short.html
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/read.html

Neil D. or Gene,

Could you kindly “liberate” my comment that is being held hostage by the moderation queue (no doubt because of the multiple links it contains)? :)

Thanks (and then please delete this comment),
-Peter

Ah yes mad John P- what is it about HP that attracts such utter Muslim hating loons?

“Listen you soppy, self-pitying loser, the Jews of the 1930s didn’t fly airplanes into office buildings, bash gays (while screaming “Yaweh is great”) or bomb subways the way islamists have.”

Blah Blah Bluergh

In the 1930s you’d have been screaming about the Jewish threat to Western civilization and about how the Jew were behind the Bolshevik revolution which killed 30 million Christians. Now its about Muslims

“Radical Muslims are not the ‘new Jews’, they are the new nazis…and are just as filthy and just as pagan.”

Muslims are filthy ? You clearly dont know that we wash before evry one of the 5 prayers

Muslims are pagan? – you clearly have lost the plot

“Now fuck-off back to whatever backward shithole you crawled out of.”

Sorry mate we aint going anyway

Now take a cold shower

“An absolute lie. Honor killings have been denounced by Muslim scholars from day one. The fact you can drag up some non entity and claim they speak for 1 bn Muslims proves nothing. “HPBNP

That was not what I said. Read it again. If everyone condemns honour killings, why did the Jordanian parliament refuse to outlaw them? Actually I pointed out that in some countries, Jordan for one, the tribal tradition of honour killings had been hijacked by conservative muslim clerics – who then claim it as islamic.

This is the position of the Islamic Action Front in Jordan which is not some nonentity but the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood there. It has actively campaigned against legislation outlawing honour killings, claiming it is anti islamic.

Pretending honour killings are condemned by all Muslims cannot be true or why would the Jordanian government refuse to vote against outlawing them. What is the position of Saudia Arabia?

Koppers

“You simply dont get it. If you did a search of papers in the 1920s for “Christian crime” and then “Jewish crime” the later would far outweigh the former.
Evidence?”

The same papers that today scream about Muslims, the Mail and Express etc were screaming about Jews and publishing stories of Jewish crime in the 1930s

“I suppose we should be grateful that the Evening Standard was at least kind enough to frame its prejudice as a question. Just under 100 years ago, the same newspaper ran a series entitled “Problem of the Alien”, assuring its readers that the city was being “overrun by undesirables” who had set up “vast foreign areas” and were “a growing menace” (see pic, left). They were referring, of course, to the Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, among them my great-grandparents.

Those undesirable ancestors of mine overrunning the capital at the start of the last century were among hundreds of thousands fleeing from persecution. They had endured years – generations even – of oppression and threat from the ruling powers of the countries in which they had previously made their homes. This had made them so anxious that every piece of news was seen in just one context: how would it affect them. “Yes, but is it good for the Jews?” was the inevitable response of this beleaguered people to reports of any political or economic development.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/nov/14/undesirablesdebate

Mrs. Ben,

I think you might be confused. Outlawing honor killings isnt the issue in Jordan. You will do time but very little and as I mentioned above, many men, who knows how many, will simply kill women and claim it was an honor killing because it has a very reduced sentence.

John P,

“Listen you soppy, self-pitying loser, the Jews of the 1930s didn’t fly airplanes into office buildings, bash gays (while screaming “Yaweh is great”) or bomb subways the way islamists have.”

I guess you have a point. I mean even for those Muslims who havent flown airplanes into office buildings, gay bashed, or bombed a subway, they are still guilty of being Muslim.

wally,

“Countiries happening to belong to the OIC seem rather over-represented don’t you think? Clearly poverty and local tradition play their part but religion seems to have reinforced rather than weakened these customs.”

What is the rate of the wealthy in these OIC countries who share the same religion and tradition of their country but not the levels of poverty? Can a reduction of poverty play a more important role in eliminating child marriage instead of the pretty unrealistic one of mass conversion? I think if we emphasized a reduction in poverty the rewards will be handsome.

Muslims are filthy ? You clearly dont know that we wash before evry one of the 5 prayers

Radical Muslims ( like you) are dirtbags who peddle clerical fascism and smack women when they’re not bum-fucking each other.

Yes, you ‘wash’ before prayers, but could radical butt-heads like you summon the modesty and the discipline to wash after going to the bathroom?

Even the nazis did that, and you SO want to be like them.

At one of the food-producing establishments I cover, a muslim employee used to take off his shoes and smelly socks to wash his stinking feet in the sink of the employee cafeteria, the same sink people used for drinking water and to wash their dishes.

The spectacle of such ‘hygiene’ became such that they had no choice but to fire the guy.

It was just pathetic, as though the poor fellow lacked an entire layer of consciousness. He was an anti-social automaton who had absolutely no idea of how he was viewed by others, such was his supremacism.

Muslims are pagan? – you clearly have lost the plot

No Dumplin’ you ARE a pagan, worshiping a pagan moon-god and obeying the insane diktats of a pagan Bedouin. Your laws are pagan tribal laws, your culture a pagan tribal culture and your civil society mon-existent. Your ‘ethics’, your ‘morality’ and your behavior clearly demonstrate that you’ve nothing in common with either Christians or Jews.

You see, you lack an entire layer of consciousness as well.

@Mrs Ben. Misogynist Islamists have opposed, and this tooth and nail, any and ALL legislation designed to outlaw ‘honour’ crimes.

And they do so because they’re emotionally stunted boy/men, much like HPBNP

They’ve aided and abetted by retrograde wahabbi Muslimas conditioned since birth to feel inferior, the same dipstick Muslimas that claim Islam was a boon to women’s rights.

Sorry Peter I don’t have the admin rights to moderate comments.

John P, why do you hang around here? You are not welcome.

John P is capable of functioning as a halfway normal human being as long as Islam and Yugoslavia doesn’t feature. HPBNP is a constant stream of poison.

The historical fact mentioned only in the Bible. The absuridity of taking someone elses land because God gave it to you in the Bible or you once allegedly ruled it 2000 years before is probably lost on you in your fanaticism

- HPBNP – serious question. Do you believe that there was a Jewish temple in Jerusalem and that temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE?

Niel after denouncing John P, might you take a moment to denounce the character who turned this into a discussion of his Elders of Zion quotes?

It’s not that I care about Judaism, I couldn’t care less, it’s just that every time I’ve been in a discussion where horrid passages, supposedly from the Talmud were quoted at length it has turned out in every case that the quotes were fabrications from some neo-nazi web site. I don’t even bother to read this stuff or check anymore.

Josh Scholar

You have to admit that JP’s comments have slid into crude polemic rather than useful debate.

*I have taken a New Year’s vow (one of many) to try to contribute more positively to these discussions. Shana Tova.

I am not going to defend everything JP says.

But I am concerned that people seem to think you can’t be passionately angry about Islam. It seems you are allowed to be passionately angry about Nazism but not Islam.

But Islam is every inch as much a totalitarian system as Nazism. It’s every bit as persecutory, every bit as stifling of the arts and free expression. It’s just as determined as Nazism to keep women as second class citizens and confine them to children, kitchen and place of worship.

I defend people’s right to be angry about that and to express their anger, even if that becomes insulting, irrational and unjustifiable on occasion.

We need to keep our focus on what Islam wants to do to us as individuals, whether we be Christian, atheist, woman, Jew, artist, Hindu, gay, secularist, lesbian, democrat, writer, imbiber of wine and beer, musician…or any combination thereof. And when that is in focus – I am not surprised people get angry.

The world is made up of two parties:

The Wishful Thinking Party, which always holds a large majority and the

As It Is Party, which is more often reviled and trying not to lose its deposit.

Wishful Thinkers want to believe Islam is a proper religion like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism.

The sad, sad truth is that it is not.

field

I have to disagree with your points.

firstly, you are trying to equate National Socialism (Nazism), a modern political ideology which held direct political control over people for little more than a decade with Islam, a religious belief derived from late antiquity which has had 14 centuries of influence over a wide variety of peoples and has an ongoing impact on the world. I don’t think the comparison, in the simplistic way you are presenting it, is valid because the 1400 years of history indicate that Islam has not been the same everywhere all that time.

secondly, you seem to be imputing to Islam a monolithic style of belief – i.e. all followers of Islam need to do this to live etc. Although you may legitimately disagree with many aspects of the belief, it is not fair to lump them all together – Alevism is a form of Shi’ism where many of its followers hold very modern views and practices – how do you account for this? Or do you buy into a particular interpretation and suggest that this is the only valid one?

thirdly, you suggest that Islam is not a proper religion, but don’t actually attempt to explain why that is? Because of some interpretations’ totalitarian tendencies? Aren’t these present in interpretations of Christianity, Judaism etc?

HPBNP - Those undesirable ancestors of mine overrunning the capital at the start of the last century were among hundreds of thousands fleeing from persecution.

I believe you HPBNP.

Others might mistakenly think that you are a liar.

But I believe you.

I see this post is illustrated with the picture of a woman who had acid thrown on her face for crimes of honor. So that, in order to put things into right perspective…

In June this year, a young ultra-orthodox Jewish man threw acid on the face of a Jewish girl because she was improperly dressed.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3552461,00.html

Also, in December 2006 a woman was beaten by ultra-Orthodox Jews on a Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to the back seat; in July 2007 a woman and a soldier were savagely beaten by ultra-Orthodox Jews for sitting together on a sex-segregated bus; in March 1989 ultra-Orthodox Jews hit with metal chairs the heads of women who were trying to pray at the Wailing Wall…

Women in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods and towns in Israel are scared by the “modesty patrols” that will threaten them or their families if their skirts are too short, or if they wear pants.

Ah, how picturesque a country Israel is! But the Muslims — they’re not picturesque, they’re woman haters.

Claphammer

I think HPBNP is quoting Tobias’ article so he/she/it is not referring to their own life/experiences.

What I find staggering is the sheer amount of material that HPBNP has on hand that he/she/it is willing to paste as comments without any real thought/consideration of that material.

Hasbara Buster/Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf etc…

Perhaps you can explain what Israel has to do with a Pakistani feminists’ comments on crimes against women in Pakistan?

I mean – seriously – why did you bring this up? What motivates the link in your mind?

Oniad. Yes. Thank you.

You obviously don’t post on CI(F).

Perhaps you can explain what Israel has to do with a Pakistani feminists’ comments on crimes against women in Pakistan?

Well, how to put this–

Are we bothered by the mistreatment of women? Or are we using the plight of certain women to bash Islam?

If we are bothered by the mistreatment of women, we should be bothered by the mistreatment of ALL women, including Jewish women mistreated by Jewish men. The latter phenomenon is not at all anecdotal; it’s part and parcel of the ultra-Orthodox culture in Israel.

I think Harry’s Place has done a great job of exposing Muslim anti-woman actions. I won’t ask them to expose Jewish actions against women as well — I’m taking care of that.

I think Harry’s Place has done a great job of exposing Muslim anti-woman actions. I won’t ask them to expose Jewish actions against women as well — I’m taking care of that.

Well, you are doing a wretched job of it. So far you have managed to cite 4 incidents – one of which was from, erm, 1989.

Don’t give up the day job!

Hasbara Buster
-again, I’m not sure why you’ve taken it upon yourself to undertake this effort? I mean, what is your interest in exposing this particular concern relating to Jews?
Are you a Jew from the ultra-Orthodox persuasion? Is this close to your personal life and experiences? Are you a haredi woman who has experienced domestic violence? Are you a Jewish women’s rights campaigner and/or Jewish feminist? Do you think this is topic is underrepresented in the Jewish media/community?
And why do you limit yourself to only focussing on this matter in Israel? There are Jews all over the place – do you have some examples that you can refer to in those cases?
I’d be curious to read your responses.

HPBNP

You : “You simply dont get it. If you did a search of papers in the 1920s for “Christian crime” and then “Jewish crime” the later would far outweigh the former.

Me : “Evidence?”

You then quoted and provided a link to this article which doesn’t give a single example of “Jewish crime”.

Once again, evidence?

Are we bothered by the mistreatment of women? Or are we using the plight of certain women to bash Islam?

This post isn’t about Islam, as much as it is about the deaths of over 600 women in honour killings, the fact there are Pakistani feminists speaking out, and that three young women were bulldozed alive for trying to chose their marrriage partners. The role of Islam in those situation may be incidental, or central, but it is the case that there are Muslim feminists who oppose it, and plenty of Muslim men who do not go round in lynch mobs murdering women. I’m not sure why a post in support of those people makes others keen to suggest I’m trying to suggest all Muslims are misogynistic. Quite the opposite.

If we are bothered by the mistreatment of women, we should be bothered by the mistreatment of ALL women, including Jewish women mistreated by Jewish men.

Yes, by pointing out the deaths of three women in Pakistan, I’m attempting to deflect attention away from the dreadful way women are treated by Jewish men? Are you out of your mind?

Josh, I’ll have a go at JP and HPBNP. Neither of them are welcome in threads. Their presence turns threads into a hatefest.

Oniad
Hasbara Buster
-again, I’m not sure why you’ve taken it upon yourself to undertake this effort? I mean, what is your interest in exposing this particular concern relating to Jews?
If sarcasm is your thang then you’ll enjoy this from Hasbarabuster his/herself:-

In this post, I would like to discuss yet another English word that has separate and not necessarily related meanings: antisemite.
Before I continue I must say I don’t dispute I’m an antisemite under the current definition of the word. Of all the peoples in the world, I want to deny the Jews, and only the Jews, the right to self-determination in their ancestral land. To that effect, I have singled out Israel for demonization

It’s full off wonderous nuggets of humourous analogy. Enjoy.

Josh, I’ll have a go at JP and HPBNP. Neither of them are welcome in threads. Their presence turns threads into a hatefest.

Freedom of speech dude. It’s priceless.

Oniad:

Apologies, I foget to give you the link:-

http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2008/09/on-shortcomings-of-english-language.html

Freedom of speech dude. It’s priceless.

Yes it is. I have the freedom of speech to suggest that both JP and HPBNP are not welcome in threads.

You have a problem with that?

Saeed: Firstly, I was not being sarcastic. I fervently hope there are Muslim women who are organising against their oppression as Muslims, and I would be interested to hear about their experiences. It’s not enough to just indicate their are such women, you need to back it up.

HPNSP: I don’t think the average British person is anti-Jewish. Sorry about that, but of course you want to claim they are. As for the quote from the ‘Evening Standard’, are you aware of the political situation in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century? Probably not. Well, it was an age of revolutions (seems so long ago now!) and dislocation. The Jews who had been confined to one particular part of Russia, called the Pale, where allowed to leave and leave they did in droves. While living in Eastern Europe they had been subjected to periodic massacres, of hundreds not an odd child blown up by Israeli rockets (although that is a tragedy). Because of the political unrest sweeping Europe, the Jews were seen as the carriers of revolution, and indeed many of them were Communist, Anarchists and Socialists. I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that Jews were involved in a)streetcrime and b)senseless murder of erring females or members of other gangs. Do you know anything about anything?

I forgot to add, no one would be happier than myself to see a modern economically functioning states in the Islamic world. Dare I say it, even socialist states.

Sue R
There were certainly Jewish gangsters in the US in the first half of the 20th C but they probably don’t fit the role that HPBNP is arguing for.

Oniad –

You try the usual gambits. Yes, Islam is a complex beast. So is Catholicism. So is democracy. So what. If we follow your doctrine we could never even begin to discuss Islam.

So when I say that Islam has a strong tendency to persecute other religions, gays and apostates, treat women as second class citizens and assume a hostile position towards free expression in the arts, what exactly are you saying? That somewhere on this planet there is a Muslim state that shows tolerance towards other religions, gays and apostates; that treat women as equal citizens and who show no hostility towards free expression in the arts?

I am very happy that there are small minorities within Islam like Alevism. I hope they may prosper. I hope they are as progressive as claimed.

I wish moderate Muslims no ill will. I also believe that humanity can if it wishes turn teachings on their head. It’s done it enough in the past. Few Christians dwell much now on Jesus’s teachings about who is going to Hell.

But the task facing Muslims is an extremely difficult one.

When I say Islam is not a proper religion, I mean that it appears to me as essentially the work of one man, who may have been spiritually inclined to begin with but who quickly surrendered to his appetites for women, wealth and glory. It is more like a personality cult that has become a mass movement. Mohammed was lucky enough to hit on a winning formula (involving invasion, looting, rapine, slavery, taxation of non-Muslims, political totalitarianism, sexual repression and control of apostasy) which allowed Islam to prosper for nigh on a 1000 years.
It’s a bit like Hubbard hitting on his winning formula with scientology.

Look, John P. may be a bit bonkers, but he did at least qualify his tirade as being against “extremist” Muslims. As much as I have nothing against mainstream Islam, the sad fact that most terrorist acts and crimes against humanity throughout the world in recent years have been carried out in the name of Islam.

No one wants “Islam” to go away – at least, not the normal, functional people who contribute to this site – but I do think most people in the world are fed up with, if not terrified of, extremist / wahhabi / jihadi Islam.

Civilised people keep their beliefs to themselves. Only dangerous barbarians wish to impose their religious systems on others.

All religions have nasty sides to them – but some more than others. There is no other religion today that has so many normalised and state-sanctioned acts of violence against women, religious minorities and gays as Islam. This doesn’t mean Islam itself is at fault, but the fact that there is a dispproportionately high number of people in the world doing bad things in its name must tell us something about today’s various manifestations of Islam.

As for the Jews one hundred or so years ago, almost all of the violent revolutionary activities attributed to them stemmed from non-Jewish beliefs and political systems (communism, anarchism). Jewish immigrants to the West didn’t go around murdering or inciting the murder of people out of Jewish beliefs. This is not the case with Muslim immigrants today, a depressingly high number do support (though not necessarily not actively) Jihadi activities. Of course the majority do not – but the minority that do are extremely vociferous and dangerous. Jewish immigrants have never posed such problems.

John P is capable of functioning as a halfway normal human being as long as Islam and Yugoslavia doesn’t feature. HPBNP is a constant

If the corpus of laws known as sharia isn’t tribal and pagan in nature, then I don’t know what is.

“Tribal” is a complety honest and accruate term.

Neil D. seems to think he is moral. There is no morality in aiding and abetting the installation of islamo-clerical fascism in The West under the auspices of multiculturalism.

It is insane to even grace this backward retardation with terms such as ‘civilisation’ or ‘religion’.

HPBNP’s sense of ‘hurt’ and his offended ‘feelings’ ( ya think I give a shit) are nothing but symtpoms of a supremacist mentality so chauvinistic in its tone that those imbued with such a mentality simply can’t negotiate civil society.

They’re sociopaths and demopaths who cannot conform to basic rules , and who therefore spend a great deal of time complaining.

I’m one of the rare blue-collar types commenting here, and my line of work,( food indsutry) concerns the application of rules, laws and regulations regarding food hygene and food salubrity on the shop floor. This work brings me into direct contact with numerous immigrant groups, many of whom fascinate me. However, my work has also brought me into direct conflict with one group in particular, a group that feels E-coli and listeria monocytogenes are mere questions of “inshallah”

I’ve been cursed at, spit on, threatened, but only by one group, a group that simply refuses to conform and to behave as an equal.

Pointing out the insane supremacism of some islamists, pointing out the fact they feel they enjoy a higher ontic status, with all the problemes that entails, marks me as a bigot.

Finally, the little liberal game of equivalence ( I am the western equivalent of HPBNP) is fast drawing to a close, and those who engaged in such ‘feel-good’ tactics will soon encounter what I’ve been encountering for a number of years now.

With the difference that they’ll fold at the first confrontation.

Bit off topic but does John P know what has happened in the dispute in a meatpackers involving some Somalis who wanted extra breaks for Ramadan? I was concerned about the ordinary workers who would be losing pay.

I would guess that anyone who values things like conviviality would be put off from reading or commenting on this blog by the presence of ordure like Flanker or HPBNP. I know I am. In fact I think I’ll naff off from now on if they’re going to be present.

I think I’ll join you, Wardytron. At least with WJ Philips there was a sense that it was all a game – despite the nastiness underneath, there was always the feel that taking the piss out of such a nasty old man (who was probably of the harmless “he writes letters to the local newspaper in green ink” brigade) was a worthwhile endeavour.

But fascist idiots like Flanker and racist BNP fuckwits like “HPBNP” take the unpleasantness into whole new depths. When I see one of their diatribes that are beyond any reasoned argument, I mentally recoil – I have better things to do with my life than be hanging around racist fascists like those two.

As for John P, I do certainly agree with him largely about Islam but he does show occasionally worrying tendancies of being influenced by the wrong people, and he fails to grasp the point that every single criticism of ISlam that he puts forward applies equally to Christianity.

Its not just the commenters though – what with Graham’s tendancy to fling around unsupported accussations of racism wilynily like he’s applying for Jesus H Hundal’s job as prize knob of the blogosphere and Gene and Tim’s deranged witterings about the US Elections, there needs to be a major housekeeping done, IMHO.

I think what Harry’s Place needs is to subdivide further perhaps into ‘Politics’ and ‘Religion’ categories, for example, and to enforce more strict on-topic moderation for those categories. Furthermore, it needs to regain its focus, outside of the ever excellent David T, Brett et al (and even the authoritarian cunt Brownie shows flashes of promise), it’s a bit flabby at the moment. Who remembers the salad days of the legendary Big Brother thread? Could that happen now? I’m not sure.

What are the solutions? I’m not sure. But if more facists and nazis and racists show up here, then I certainly won’t be about much. I hardly post any more because I feel an intellectual disconnect to most of the content (and being viciously libelled by one of the main posters doesn’t help either).

Where do we anti-racist anti-collectivist anti-theists go? Increasingly its not Harry’s Place.

It is insane to even grace this backward retardation with terms such as ‘civilisation’ or ‘religion’.

Likewise catholicism.

Field,

Given I am against Sharia, against government policies that pander to MB fronts etc etc. I don’t think you can accuse me of aiding and abetting the installation of a islamo-clerical fascism.

Somone says of you

“he did at least qualify his tirade as being against “extremist” Muslims.”

But those qualifications go out of the window when the tirade and follow-ups continue. It’s the sort of diatribe that is counter productive.

As for being blue collar, pah! Given where you are coming from it is clear you are a blue-plaster worker.

I fervently hope there are Muslim women who are organising against their oppression as Muslims, and I would be interested to hear about their experiences.

Bu there aren’t any. Those Muslim women calling for reform are either self-declared apostates, or nominal Muslims who’ve been declared apostate by their repsective communities. Just about any women proposing reform is threatened sooner or later. Totalitarian belief systmes don’t like innovations of any sort.

But Islam is every inch as much a totalitarian system as Nazism. It’s every bit as persecutory, every bit as stifling of the arts and free expression. It’s just as determined as Nazism to keep women as second class citizens and confine them to children, kitchen and place of worship.

A ‘civilisation’ devoid of science and technology and with virtually no arts or music or drama is NOT a civilisation.

Islam took what had for centuries been the most advanced and enlightened regions of the globe…The Fertile Crescent, North Africa, Persia, Egypt, Greece/Byzantium, The Indus River Valley… and in only a few generations turned them into irrelevant backwaters that produce nothing, create nothing and invent nothing.

And why should that be surprising seeings totalitarian belief systems eschew any and all innovation.

Morgoth: Seems to me that HP is a victim of it’s own success. Because it is known to be an open discussion board that champions Western values, it attracts people who want to score against them and are not really interested in any sort of debate.

A ‘civilisation’ devoid of science and technology and with virtually no arts or music or drama is NOT a civilisation.

-this is a gross oversimplification John. Granted that from the 13th C onwards Islamic civilisation has experienced a downturn in development in these fields (I believe mostly, but not limited to, the trauma of the Mongols myself) they were still producing a more advanced output than Latin/Byzantine civilisation in the 7-12 centuries CE. Do you deny this?

He he Did Morgoth just complain there were too many racists around?

My irony meter has exploded.

John,

Without going into hyperbole about Islamic discoveries (much of which was due to an enlightening bringing together of many scientific cultures), I’d say you are ignorant of Islamic civilisation (or rather science that happened in an Islamic society) – certainly before it started to nose-dive after it went down a dead end and lost the ability to allow free inquiry.

As for John P, I do certainly agree with him largely about Islam but he does show occasionally worrying tendancies of being influenced by the wrong people, and he fails to grasp the point that every single criticism of ISlam that he puts forward applies equally to Christianity.

Morgoth, it is pointless and even counterproductive to draw equvalences between Islam and Xianity.

For the past month we’ve seen ( holy) Ramadan bombings in Iraq, Algeria, Syria and Pakistan, among others.

Now during the Lenten season, do the parishoners of St-Mary’s bomb the parishoners of St-Monica’s?

Or do both engage in mutual suicide bombings?

And in both parishes do women enter through a dingey back door, and are they segregated and separated from the men by being made to sit at the back or even in separate rooms?

And do the sermons both listen to involove tirades against Jews or the impurity of non-Christians?

Do the clerics scream for the overthrow of secular, civil society?

Christianity and Islam have nothing in common; they are like oil and water.

Christainity has led humanity somewhere, it has the power to improve human beings and to make them better, more honest and more cooperative social creatures.

Islam is parsasitic and when it exhausts its booty and finds itself unable to obtain any more, it sinks into a sleepy torpor, like a wino after a binge.

Islam is parsasitic and when it exhausts its booty and finds itself unable to obtain any more, it sinks into a sleepy torpor, like a wino after a binge.

-this is too outrageous. where is the moderation?

He he Did Morgoth just complain there were too many racists around?

You really are a foul and vicious smeary lowlife aren’t you?

John P, give it up. The only reason that Christianity isn’t behaving like Islam is because it can’t get away with it. If it could, it would. Your religion is just as evil as Islam, perhaps more so since it and you try to present it as sweetness and light, when its nothing of the sort. At least Islam makes no excuses about the total subjudigation of the human divine spirit at its heart. A plague on both your houses!

Yes, by pointing out the deaths of three women in Pakistan, I’m attempting to deflect attention away from the dreadful way women are treated by Jewish men? Are you out of your mind?

I never said such a thing.

I agree with you that a critic of Muslim violence against women has no obligation to tackle anti-woman violence by the members of other religions, any more than a critic of American atrocities in Iraq is in any way required to deplore Russian atrocities against Georgians, or a critic of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank has any obligation to condemn the Chinese occupation of the Tibet.

Now the picture of a woman with her face burnt with acid has a great symbolic effect. I agree it’s not your duty to let your readers know that the Muslims are not alone in doing such a horrible thing. That’s where I come in, supplying information that I think is valuable to put things into right perspective.

Hasbara
I’d appreciate it if you could find the time to respond to my questions set to you earlier.
Also, I think there is an obligation to speak out on behalf of all oppressed people, not just do it selectively.
As a side issue, I guess your from Argentina – what activism have you participated in to assist the indigenous peoples of Argentina – people who were genocided, ethnically cleansed, enslaved, displaced from their lands and still suffer economic and social oppression in their own country. Its highly likely that you have benefitted from these very crimes yourself.

Without going into hyperbole about Islamic discoveries (much of which was due to an enlightening bringing together of many scientific cultures), I’d say you are ignorant of Islamic civilisation (or rather science that happened in an Islamic society) – certainly before it started to nose-dive after it went down a dead end and lost the ability to allow free inquiry.

Never had the ability.

Um, ‘booty’ and ‘loot’ also include stolen intellectual property.

When the numbers of non-muslim Mid-Easterners conquered by invading Arabs sank below below the critical limit necessary for the maintenaince of an Islamic ‘golden’ age, that ‘golden’ age imploded.

And when one explores Islam’s intellectual claims, one soon begins to realise that, for the most part, there’s no ‘there’ there.

It’s a desert.

Architecture is a field of human endevour that is often the hallmark of a culture’s accomplishments and talents

I suggest you do an overview of Islam’s greatest Mosques, those of Cairo and Damascus and Istanbul or even present-day Morocco’s latesty jewel, a mosque opened in 1996, and check out the identities of the designers, the engineers and the architects.

In 20 years jihadists will be telling you they built Stonehenge.

Quote above: “You also fundamentally misunderstand the role of the Prophet. As a human being the Prophet did certain things that were the cultural norms of his society such as speaking Arabic, eating particular food, dressing a particular way and marriage. We arent oligated to follow his culturally specific actions but rather to follow his commands as a Prophet.”

Obviously, the writer doesn’t know then Quran. It says “Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow” (33:21). It doesn’t distinguish between the cultural and religious. Or maybe Allah can’t write a clear sentance or didn’t think it through. Anyway, it doesn’t make any difference because Allah gave Mohammad a blank check: “There is no fault in the Prophet in what Allâh has decreed for him” (Quran 33:37). So all those vile, evil things recorded in the ahadith were OK for Mohammad (and they don’t bother Muslims today either).

What I don’t understand is how Muslims can be so naive about something so obvious. The Quran, supposedly the word of Allah given to Mohammad for all mankind, is a book that seems to have been written to benefit Mohammad and give him wealth, women and power.

Don’t Muslims find this suspicious? The Quran is full of exceptions and special privileges for Mahammad. Here are a few….

… to cut, burn and destroy orchards and fields. Quote: Whether ye cut down (O ye Muslim!) The tender palm-trees, or ye left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgresses.

… to attack and burn mosques and kill Muslims (59:5, 9:107, 110). Quote: “They built a Masjid out of mischief and to promote disbelief, and sectarianism among the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allah and His Messenger.”

…permission to marry for than 4 women “this only for thee, and not for the believers” (33:50). Not only does the Quran have special rules for Islam’s prophet, it has a bunch of special rules for his wives.

…to violate the sanctity of the sacred month Rajan (which from immemorial antiquity in Arabia had been consecrated to peace) and attack infidels (Sura 2). It gets worse: by special permission captives were executed (Sura 47, 48). In another verse (8:67) Mohhammad says he must kill captives (make slaughter in the land) to prove he is a prophet. He also has permission (8:12) to inflict barbaric torture and kill his enemies (”execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land”) according to what is convenient to him.

… Not to keep his word of honor, if it interferes with anything bringing pleasure. From Surah 66: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths.” (Oh yes, generously Allah extended this benefits to all Muslims. Consider the implications of this!)

Oh yes, Allah made sure that Mohammad got his share of all plunder “And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah, and to the Messenger” (8:41). Allah also told the faithful to bring an offering (money) before meeting with the prophet “to make it better and purer” for the believers (58:12), of course. (Observation: I am just guessing but I bet Allah never showed up at Mohammad’s door to get his share).

And so on…. These divine interventions to satisfy Muhammad’s sexual and marital issues were so blatant that Aisha even snickered that “It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire”.

The fact is that in the Quran, Mohammad comes across as nothing less than a junior partner to Allah. Not only are the words “Allah and his messenger” used hundreds of times (Obey Allah and His Messenger; believe in Allah and His Messenger; show your faith in Allah and His Messenger; an announcement from Allah and His Messenger; fear that Allah and His Messenger will act wrongfully towards them; Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, etc.) but at times Mohammad assumes full equality with Allah. Verse 48:10 of the Quran summarizes the concept as follows: “Verily those who swear allegiance to you (Muhammad), indeed swear their allegiance to Allah.” Verse 4.80 says ‘He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah” and verse 33.36 states “When Allah and his Apostle decide a matter…” Think about what these verses say! There is no way to look at this except that Mohammad has assumed the powers and position understood to pertain to a deity. Maybe that explains the frequent use of the plural “we” by Allah. Yet Muslims say the greatest sin is to associate partners with Allah. Go figure.

The fact is that Muslims consider Islam to be perfect and nothing, nothing at all, even simple words from their own sacred book or obvious behavior patterns (terror, fgm, honor killings, acid attacks, etc…) derived and justified by their doctrine will change their minds. They blame everything on something else, anything, because Islam is perfect and you don’t understand the inner beauty of Islam because it is perfect. Bla bla bla and things never change, well except they get worse.

There are no moderate Muslims, only those who make excuses and pretend that these things have nothing to do with islam. If Muslims can overlook the obvious in their own writings, why should we think they will be able to see any link between their treatment of women and their religion? Why should be believe anything they say? Remember, islam is perfect (in case you forgot!).

Old man Kactuz, aka kactuzkid

I mean, what is your interest in exposing this particular concern relating to Jews?

I hadn’t answered this because these kinds of questions can lead us into a slippery slope of ad hominem attacks.

I’ve always thought that virtual communities are communities of ideas, not people. We use nicks, we don’t talk about our private lives, we don’t have any expectation of physically meeting one day. We just discuss ideas.

WHO we are or WHY we write the things we write is not important; the important thing is WHAT we say. Can you refute my viewpoint? You’re welcome to, so long as you focus on debunking my arguments, not my person.

Now during the Lenten season, do the parishoners of St-Mary’s bomb the parishoners of St-Monica’s?

In Northern Ireland, they did until a very recent time.

And in both parishes do women enter through a dingey back door, and are they segregated and separated from the men by being made to sit at the back or even in separate rooms?

In Israel there exist state-subsidized buses on which women are required to sit in the rear seats, and if they don’t they’re harrassed or beaten.

And do the sermons both listen to involove tirades against Jews or the impurity of non-Christians?

I myself have attended Catholic services in which the Jews were depicted as the killers of God and as evil. Also, up to a very recent time in Catholic schools in my city they refused to accept children whose parents were divorced; apparently, they were “impurified” by their parent’s breaking up.

Do the clerics scream for the overthrow of secular, civil society?

In my country, Christian leaders have threatened the government with civil unrest if an abortion bill is passed by Parliament.

Christainity has led humanity somewhere, it has the power to improve human beings and to make them better, more honest and more cooperative social creatures.

It’s not Christianity; it’s the Enlightment, which took place despite Christianity.

Hasbarabuster:

Now the picture of a woman with her face burnt with acid has a great symbolic effect. I agree it’s not your duty to let your readers know that the Muslims are not alone in doing such a horrible thing. That’s where I come in, supplying information that I think is valuable to put things into right perspective.

Fucking hilarious. And one of your tools, in your quest, is to give links to David Irving’s website.
You are a legend in your own mind.
As I said, don’t give up the day job. :->

Hasbara Buster has just shown us his philosophical idealist stance. Despite the fact that the sort of ‘religious’ crimes this article is talking about are sanctioned in other religions (but not Christianity), doesn’t mean that they are actually being committed. Where in the world are the majority of the crimes we are discussing taking place? Now, s/he wants to argue that this is not real Islam. Well, they should stop pretending to be Muslims then and maybe the real Muslims should have a word with the imposters and leave the West alone? The idea of having one’s throat slit or sulphuric acid in one’s face for smiling at someone in the street is a pretty repugnant idea. perhaps you’d like to discuss that? What about that poor girl and her mother who were butchered in Basra because she had a secret crush on a British soldier? I think that’s pretty important to note, but you won’t because it’s an event in the REAL world and not just a fancy thesis in your nice safe and secure (undoubtedly middleclass) study. Just think, her girl’s father and brothers thought they were being good MUslims killing her and her mum, and so did the police officers and the men in the street, but you’re saying they were mistaken. How can this be?

The thing is philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point is to change it. I predict that the corruption and ruination of the Islamic countries will become so intense, and this will affect us in the West as well, that the whole edifice will implode. From out of the ruins a new sciety will have to be cnstructed, and undoubtedly, it will be one where Islam will not loom so large, although one should never underestimate rural idiocy, but if the World wants to solve global warming, famime, plagues, poverty, random violence then it has to be rational about it.

I myself have attended Catholic services in which the Jews were depicted as the killers of God and as evil. Also, up to a very recent time in Catholic schools in my city they refused to accept children whose parents were divorced; apparently, they were “impurified” by their parent’s breaking up.

Yeah, we’ll take your word for it, big boy.

John P, give it up. The only reason that Christianity isn’t behaving like Islam is because it can’t get away with it. If it could, it would. Your religion is just as evil as Islam, perhaps more so since it and you try to present it as sweetness and light, when its nothing of the sort. At least Islam makes no excuses about the total subjudigation of the human divine spirit at its heart. A plague on both your houses!

Morgoth the resemblance is but superficial.

The first large-scale conversions to Christianity took place among 3rd century upper-class Greeks despairing of the world around them. It wasn’t the sigh of oppressed creatures, but rather an attempt on the part of some astute and highly educated individuals to put order into chaos. Christianity supplied sufficient lift, sufficient altitude to provide the overview ( transcendance) so necessary to do just that.

There is a famous stature of Constantine ( well just the head actually) and although basically Roman in style, the statue’s eyes, its strange expression, is an example of that new emerging world-view.

The Hasbara Buster

In Israel there exist state-subsidized buses on which women are required to sit in the rear seats, and if they don’t they’re harrassed or beaten.

Evidence?

Neil D.

I wasn’t your accuser. But if you want me to I could accuse you of abetting Islamo-clerical fascism by failing to face up to the full extent of the ideology you face.

in July 2007 a woman and a soldier were savagely beaten by ultra-Orthodox Jews for sitting together on a sex-segregated bus; in March 1989 ultra-Orthodox Jews hit with metal chairs the heads of women who were trying to pray at the Wailing Wall…

So, you’re defending IDF soldiers and feminist practising Jews to live unmolested in Israel? I bet you thought you were saying something else.

From HB’s wepage:

the war Israel unleashed on Lebanon in 2006, killing 1,191 civilians

Liar.

to avenge a border incident in which exactly zero civilians were killed.

Cheat.

jay kactuz

What I don’t understand is how Muslims can be so naive about something so obvious. The Quran, supposedly the word of Allah given to Mohammad for all mankind, is a book that seems to have been written to benefit Mohammad and give him wealth, women and power.

Well. I’m sure that most of us understand the POWER bit.

In reading Salman Rushdie’s book, I realised that the Prophet, (Blessed be his name and all his issue etc etc etc.), actually sought to mold the ‘Islamic woman’ into what he mostly desired in women. Obedience and a disposition to ’service’ the dominant male.

Let’s face it. He would probably be lost in the world of ’sado-masochism’ with ‘dominant females’ in black leather bras and …. whips and feathers.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh! He didn’t know what he was missing. And I think, neither did Sir Salman.

I myself have attended Catholic services in which the Jews were depicted as the killers of God and as evil. Also, up to a very recent time in Catholic schools in my city they refused to accept children whose parents were divorced; apparently, they were “impurified” by their parent’s breaking up.

Utter bullshit.

Like Bernadette Devlin.

Utter bullshit.

Not utter bullshit. Ireland, both North and South. Up until this present day.

Koppers, pay a look at this:

The petitioners–some of whom tried to sit in the front–say they were humiliated, verbally harassed and even threatened by violence on these buses [i.e., sex-segregated Israeli buses]. In some cases, drivers cited immodest attire as a reason to bar the women from boarding the bus at all or for telling them to get off.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3167/context/archive

You really are a foul and vicious smeary lowlife aren’t you?

very possibly. But however low I go I will never sink to calling for the deaths of all Muslims (which would wipe out quite a few races.)

But however low I go I will never sink to calling for the deaths of all Muslims (which would wipe out quite a few races.)

Cite?

Not utter bullshit. Ireland, both North and South. Up until this present day.

Morgoth, as though you attended Sunday Mass at every Catholic church in Ireland.

The statement by Hasbara Buster is designed to take the heat off of Islamists. He points out the mote in the eyes of Jews and Christians, as pertains to the treament of women, in order to distract from the entire fucking lumber-yard lodged in the eye of Islam

His statement is a complete fabrication.