Harry's Place

Isn’t it called “frontism”?

Now you’re picking on 17 year old kids! Talk about scraping the McCarthyite barrel. Disgusting stuff.

Where is the young Christian/Jew/Hindu/Atheist etc advisory group?
Or do they need to kill 52 in central London first?
If you want your religion to have more influence kill innocent people?

Zin, I think that once a kid (over 16) becomes a Government advisor they become fair game for news and current affairs discussion

I agree with Zin. Why are the SWP using this poor girl in this way? They really are scraping the barrel here. She’s 17 for chrissakes.

Thank goodnees the AWL have got their house in order and know how to debate the really important stuff:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZAn-ABmM9m4/SOqF71CC-VI/AAAAAAAAEhs/vIaZwP7q4gk/s1600-h/awl.gif

I am no fan of the SWP. But I don’t like bullies, and this is bullying. David T should hang his head in shame.

“I think that once a kid (over 16) becomes a Government advisor they become fair game for news and current affairs discussion”

I think this is the political equivalent of “If there’s grass on the pitch…”

I didn’t put out the press release.

What would you have said if the Government had appointed a young BNP activist to a committee, and put out a press release about it?

Zin – she’s at University. She’s a member of an activist political organisation. She’s a Government advisor, and her name has been included in a DCLG press release to be printed in tomorrow’s newspapers. She has chosen to be all those things.

Are you really arguing we can’t criticise Government advisors becuase it’s bullying?

Zin, do you think this young woman will have any influence in this role, or is it just window dressing? Effective lobbying group or Labour publicity stunt?

Classic McCarthyite stuff. Teenager does good work, is active and engaged, get appointed by government body, but then gets personally targeted by obsessive website for membership of a political party.

I hope no one gets her email address, photo etc. I hope she doesn’t get the usual bucket loads of abuse that HP normally generates with its sub-Redwatch rantings.

I don’t think folk should be targeted professionally for membership of any legal political party – least of all teenagers.

I didn’t agree with folk trying to get that ballet dancer sacked because she was member of the BNP. I said I was against that at the time.

This sort of targeting can easily lead to horrendous personal abuse or worse; and it doesn’t help in any larger fight, no matter how noble or heroic those engaged in the struggle think they are.

Benjamin, the SWP is not a legal political party.

Just from that synopsis this kid sounds like someone bright, committed and who cares about their community. The SWP sounds like something she’ll grow out of. Equating her with some BNP meathead goes beyond stupid, and into the realms of nasty. She would have more justification of coming back at you and accussing you of running Redwatch Lite after this.

What would you have said if the Government had appointed a young BNP activist to a committee, and put out a press release about it?

Your tired old question. For all I know they already have – or certainly people with similar views. However, I don’t agree with BNP members being targeted professionally for being members of that party.

Anyway you are basically labouring under the delusion that the BNP and SWP are directly comparable; clearly the Labour Party does not agree with you, nor do many folk – after all, quite a few Labour people were members of far left groups at one time or another.

They need to up your meds.

John’s, not Benji’s!

Also Benjamin, your argument is a strawman because nobody is being targetted professionally for membership of a political party. An advisory role is not a proffession. The SWP is a pressure group. Affiliation to a pressure group is a relevant factor when appointing Government advisors, surely?

If an anti-abortion campaigner was appointed to a Government taskforce on promoting safe abortions, there might be some concern?

Is “McCarthyite” the new “Fascist”? It seems to be cast about with the same abandon and lack of relevance.

Equating her with some BNP meathead goes beyond stupid, and into the realms of nasty

Its at least displays a short sighted and vindictive attitude to someone they actually know little about.

You know, its weird going back in the archives of HP. When this blog first started Harry wrote stirring posts in support of the FBU. How things change!

An advisory role is not a proffession.

Yes, a narrow point – but her participation is something which is good for her personal development and education, and no doubt her career later on. Look, don’t get all coy, you know what games you are playing.

Mike S The SWP sounds like something she’ll grow out of.

Hopefully so but still a bit early to appoint her as an adviser to ministers of her majesty’s government. I would term this stupidity at best, cynical at worst.

Equating her with some BNP meathead goes beyond stupid, and into the realms of nasty.

No. It is very pertinent in this case

There is an equivalence between the BNP and the SWP.

Both use racism in order to promote their goals.

The SWP is a revolutionary party, and is open about this. It supports, campaigns for, and tours around members of middle eastern terrorist organisations. It has played a significant role in facilitating Muslim radicalisation.

The BNP is a larger fringe party than the SWP, but just as nasty. Its members have been convicted for violent offences more often than those of the SWP.

It would be a disaster for Britain if either of these parties got into power.

I don’t think that members of revolutionary and totalitarian parties should be sacked from their jobs.
However, I do think that they should be kept as far as possible from positions of political influence.

It is alarming that someone who is a member of a racist anti democratic party should be allowed to do such a sensitive job, especially after their recent role in stirring up community hatreds in the east end where many terror plots have come from. Maybe they thought if Islamists know they have someone who looks up to them and shares their world view then she will be able to steer them away from violent extemism. Very dangerous if you ask me.

I lived in Bradford for a number of years. I knew a number of people who were members of socialist groups (shock horror), not because of belief in Islamism or any other dark motive that someone like David T, sitting in London, would ascribe to them, but because the BNP and National Front have a presence in parts of the city. This is one way to fight them, because many socialists do the organising against the BNP on the ground. That may be one motive of course; there may be others, none of which are necessarily malign.

David T

You do realise that the SWP actually organise against the BNP in Bradford? You are not one for considering individuals, admittedly – you much prefer to think of monolithic party blocks – but I can assure you, from experience, that individual members of SWP in Bradford are thoroughly anti-racist. Certainly the ones I have met. That is separate from whatever machinations in the SWP leadership you bloviate about.

Is she really a student at Leeds University at 17?

“You do realise that the SWP actually organise against the BNP in Bradford”

In what way?

They have recruitment drives, around the theme of the BNP.

One racist totalitarian party recruits members by attacking another one.

I hope no one gets her email address, photo etc. I hope she doesn’t get the usual bucket loads of abuse that HP normally generates with its sub-Redwatch rantings.

Well, David Toube’s photo and phone number are easily attainable for those with access to Google, or Daily Mail readers may remember his smiling mug from such stories as “Nasty Muslims wont let me in my swimming pool”. Beware though, when the hotshot lawyer swings his cyber cock around his head, it leaves destruction in its wake

Hmm, hate to say this, but Zin and Benji have a point.

She’s 17 and NO, the SWP are not the same as the BNP.

Even though I am one of their harshest critics, that’s just basic political analysis in telling the difference between two things, quasi-Trot radical students and the intrinsically racist and fascist BNP.

“I hope to highlight the forgotten achievements of the Muslim community in Britain,”
Such as ?

The irresponsible uber-greedy activities of money grubbing bastards, one at least of who is linked to by this blog, are just about to cost hundreds of thousands of workers across the globe their livelihoods and homes, and wealthy lawyer David Toube is busy fiddling with the pretence that a 17 year old apparently good hearted girl but political dilettante (in that latter way she is similar to Toube) is at all important in the scheme of thngs.

And absurd as the SWP is as an organisation it beggars belief that Toube chooses to propagandise that it is as equivalent to and currently as dangerous as the BNP.

Kebabs?

Mod, why can’t you just make your (wrong) without giving odious pro-SWP apologists like Zin and Benji your approval?

“but I can assure you, from experience, that individual members of SWP in Bradford are thoroughly anti-racist. Certainly the ones I have met. ”

But they are nonetheless members of a racist party. I would not put it beyond the bounds of possibility that there are non racist members of the BNP, but they are still culpabale for joining a racist party.

I can assure you, from experience, that individual members of SWP in Bradford are thoroughly anti-racist.

…says the same guy who condemned David T for outing a racist on CiF.

The east end has become a terror training camp for dozens of plots since the SWP moved in and announced to Muslims they are at war with the British state, and you’re telling me they’re not dangerous?

“And absurd as the SWP is as an organisation it beggars belief that Toube chooses to propagandise that it is as equivalent to and currently as dangerous as the BNP.2

Nobody is claiming that the SWP is as dangerous as the BNP. In fact the point is made above that compared to the BNP the SWP is a tiny and insignificant party. But that shouldn’t mean it is immune from criticism. The government should not be appointing members of racist organisations as advisors.

I think that the SWP has played a significant role in radicalising British Muslims.

They have propagated the lie that there is a global War on Muslims.

They have created the false impression that Muslims are being persecuted by the Government of this country.

They have distributed placards to marchers, encouraging them to identify with and support Hezbollah.

They have promoted speakers from Hamas and Hezbollah.

They have justified the genocidal racism of these groups.

They have formed front organisations with the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e Islami.

Members of their RESPECT front organisation have told the Muslim community that Israel controls the British government, and that the 7/7 bombings were a plot to frame Muslims.

It also toured around Gilad Atzmon who is an outspoken anti-semite. They denied that he was an anti-semite, and attacked anybody who suggested that he was.

Yes, I grant you this. The SWP does not personally beat people up.

It is however one of the foremost inspirers and encouragers, both of racism, and of support for Islamist terrorism, in this country.

The SWP’s activities in the north have been equally unwelcome. We know from the Oldham riots where they exploited the situation to cause a riot, just as the BNP did with the white community, that they have been at the forefront of creating community tensions.

Well apart from this involving the reprehensible Ed Balls and Hazel Bleary…

Dear, sweet, fuck. Let’s all have advocacy groups funded by the government. I want one for 35 year old agnostics who think is Islam is a crock of shi’ite and it stinketh.

Maybe that would also aid “social cohesion”.

For the billionth time… hitting the Poor Bloody Taxpayer to pay for a whitewash of the beliefs of a bunch of lunatics who follow chapter and verse what a dark-age kiddie-fiddler spouted is just wrong.

Islam is a bunch of shit. Why we even attempt to “engage” with it rather than telling it to grow-up and fucking well behave or fucking else is utterly beyond me.

As to the usual HP obsession with obscure lefty parties that matter not a jot. The SWP is three fellas and a dog these days so fuck them as well.

Oh, FFS, if she is old enough to decide to JOIN a political party, and old enough CONSULT for a political qwango, then she is old enough to have political questions asked about her.

Bringing her youth into it is like complaining that criticism of David Blunkett is picking on the disabled.

If she is not old enough to know what she is doing then that is even worse. We’ve got some brainwashed kid under the influence of SWP command inside a government backed group.

Mod, why can’t you just make your (wrong) without giving odious pro-SWP apologists like Zin and Benji your approval?

Not at all – I don’t support the SWP. However, I have been in the company of members of both the SWP and BNP in Bradford, and I can assure you they are very different types people. I don’t see parties as monolithic blocs like David T.

I don’t even think every member of the BNP is a raving fascist, although many are. Some though, are just like very right wing members of the Conservative Party.

Having compared members of the SWP and BNP at close quarters, the BNP are worse by a long, long way.

Doesn’t the SWP wish to overthrow the ‘bourgeois state’? If so, isn’t rather odd for representatives of the ‘bourgeois state’ to appoint members of the party to an advisory body?

That’s too much – how many of yous were in Trot/ lefty movements at Uni? I personally know of at least one. Mr T it’s really indefensible.

Thanks, Benji. My mind is put at rest.

Frankly if you’re NOT a starry-eyed lefty at 17 then you’re a bit sad.

Boy, the point is she should not be a govenment adviser.

I think that the SWP has played a significant role in radicalising British Muslims

The war in Iraq has played a rather more significant role in radicalising muslims.

David’s odd obsession with the SWP continues.

He should be reminded though that the BNP, Britain’s biggest fascist party, is antisemitic, white supremacist and more broadly racist. It is also violent towards people and property.

This toxic mix is more attractive to voters than Respect (or any other far left group): in the 2005 general election, the BNP gained nearly three times the votes received by Respect, and has numerous more local councilors.

The SWP is not a “starry eyed leftie” group.

It is a group which promotes insecurity among Muslims by lying to them, and fear among Jews by lying about them, and by promoting groups which aim to commit genocide against them.

Sure Mr T, SWP are bad – but how about the Bolshevik/ Stalinist fronts the Harry’s Placers used to lurve? But hey, they were young…

On PM just now one of the group, Aziza al-Yasin says of that minority of muslims who hog the headlines that they are “muslim by name . . .but not muslim by faith”. What a surprise. And what would the members of that minority say of the so-called moderates? Yes, “muslim by name . . .but not muslim by faith”.

Benji

I agree that attempts to rehabilitate the BNP need to be opposed.

I hope that you would argue against anybody who tried to soft soap the BNP.

I hope also that you would protest if you discovered that the Government had appointed a student BNP activist to an advisory body.

I don’t support the SWP either, as I’m sure their own members would confirm. I did say this earlier, as that ridiculous fool Mike knows full well.

Anyway, if Sabiha Iqbal gets to read this: Don’t worry about the unpleasant abuse being thrown at you by the bullies here – this website is famous for it. These loonies don’t actually believe that you are equivilent to the BNP. Most of them are just sad middle aged men with personal problems. In the middle ages they would be out witch burning, in the 20th century they would be lynching ‘niggers’ or giving evidence against actors at one of Joe McCarthy’s hearings.

So well done for helping out in your local community and trying to make a difference – I’d be very proud of you if you were my daughter.

Calvin Tucker

‘Frankly if you’re NOT a starry-eyed lefty at 17 then you’re a bit sad.’

Yes but if you’re a starry-eyed lefty at 17, should you be appointed to a Government quango? And shouldn’t you think that the Government is not taking you sufficiently seriously if it wants to appoint you? How many quangos did the Czar appoint Lenin to?

Is it me or are there a lot straw men in this thread?

“David T should be reminded of the BNP”

Yes, and? Which government adviser is a member of the BNP?

Trofim

Depends really on whether somebody has left a totalitarian group, and vocally supports liberal democracy: or whether they’re still a member.

“Frankly if you’re NOT a starry-eyed lefty at 17 then you’re a bit sad.”

I know I was. I joined the Labour Party. It never occurred to me to join the racist and totalitarian SWP.

In fairness, I didn’t know it was a racist and totalitarian party at the time, and it was certainly less racist 18 years ago than it is now.

I understand people’s objections, to a certain extent, and I knew people who joined the BNP and the SWP whilst at university. The SWP ones were basically good at heart, if a little self-righteous, whereas the BNP fellow was a racist scumbag. Fortunately, they all grew out of it soon enough.

Probably Sabiha Iqbal will eventually grow out of her involvement in this despicable group, but for the time being she is both a government adviser and a member of a racist, totalitarian political party, and fair game.

Zin is my son by the way.

Let me echo Calvin in wishing Sabiha Iqbal all the best. I hope she continues to contribute as she has been doing, and I hope she does well on the Young Muslims Advisory Group.

McCarthyite

Is this one of Benjamin’s new buzzwords, like ‘orientalism’, which he throws around for a bit until someone tells him what it means?

This must be an all-time low for Harry’s Place

Mike If she is not old enough to know what she is doing then that is even worse. We’ve got some brainwashed kid under the influence of SWP command inside a government backed group.

And worse.

Advising her majesties ministers who may not know any better.

Is this one of Benjamin’s new buzzwords, like ‘orientalism’, which he throws around for a bit until someone tells him what it means?

One trait of McCarthyism is targeting folk in the work related arena for being members of political parties. I do not like that approach. I don’t like that approach even regarding members of the BNP – I was very much against trying to get Simone Clarke sacked.

Moreover, I don’t think the SWP is comparable to the BNP, not least because individual members of the two parties tend to be very different, in my experience.

Benji and Zin are like proud parents cooing over their baby. Shame she belongs to an anti-semitic party, but so what? Look at her lovely brown eyes…

Shouldn’t we be pleased that one little Muslim girl has seen fit to emancipate herself from that medieval bollocks? It’s a start….

Don’t be so patronising

There are 21 other members of that committee.

Only one has joined an extremist totalitarian and racist political party.

“One trait of McCarthyism is targeting folk in the work related arena for being members of political parties.”

OK. So you’ve just looked up McCarthyism on Wikipedia. I don’t think anyone’s any clearer on how that relates to your earlier use.

I’m getting confused: does the SWP believe in the overthrow of the bourgeois state or not? If doesn’t, it might be reasonable to appoint members of the party to government quangos, but if if it does, it seems rather eccentric to appoint them to such bodies.

OK. So you’ve just looked up McCarthyism on Wikipedia.

I certainly did not, but anyway…

Strange to have misused it so blatantly, then.

If doesn’t, it might be reasonable to appoint members of the party to government quangos, but if if it does, it seems rather eccentric to appoint them to such bodies.

Unlike some here, the people charged with appointing folk to the advisory group are obviously capable of assessing the individuals rather than simply a party.

As has been noted, some folk join far left political parties when they are young. Iqbal is also a member of the Bradford Youth Service, has set up her own not for profit organisation, is involved in anti-racism work, volunteers part time at Barnados, and writes for a number of magazines.

I bet there are no members of the BNP with that sort of profile. Iqbal as an individual demonstrates the absurdity of David’s comparison with the BNP. While Iqbal is clearly a constructive and positive member of the community, members of the BNP are more likely to be found shoveling shit through letter boxes.

‘the people charged with appointing folk to the advisory group are obviously capable of assessing the individuals rather than simply a party’

But surely the SWP is a democratic centralist party whose members are required to follow the party line (which aims at the overthrow of the bourgeois state). Or have I got this all wrong?

Yes, we all know that the SWP are (or at any rate aspire to be, or aspire to dream of being) a rather nasty bunch of totalitarians in the making. But, in reality, they pose absolutely not the slightest threat to our society, even hypothetically (which can not, unfortunately be said for the likes of the BNP)

Frankly I’d have thought that having an SWP member (who clearly has interests outside the narrow and obsessive realm of politics) on this sort of “advisory group”, at such an impressionable age (he wrote patronisingly, but accurately), would be a way to positively influence HER.

I really don’t see the problem.

I think this pretext of this post (which is if anything obsessive, weird and nasty) is rather more objectionable than the appointment of this woman to this (lowly, voluntary) position.

And, to reiterate, I don’t say that as someone who has the slightest sympathy with the SWP, any of its front or offshoot organizations, or indeed any organization that would contemplate using the word “socialist” to describe itself

Iqbal is also a member of the Bradford Youth Service, has set up her own not for profit organisation, is involved in anti-racism work, volunteers part time at Barnados, and writes for a number of magazines.

David Toube is a lawyer advising finance capitalists.

But, in reality, they pose absolutely not the slightest threat to our society, even hypothetically (which can not, unfortunately be said for the likes of the BNP)

Not true. They have been at the forefront of stirring up Muslim greviences in hotspot areas for jihadism, and telling Muslims to be on a war footing. A logical argument could be made that they are even more dangerous than the BNP.

More straw men I see. Advising the government is a political job in its nature. Nobody is saying her extremist views should be banned or that she should not be able to get a job. Yawns.

It’s no surprise that Benji is using this issue to attack HP. Lets face it, HP is a colour blind anti racist blog that is obviously not going to be of his liking. Someone who defends the BNP as ‘not raving fascists’ and thinks the anti semitic, conspiracy theoryites of SWP who promote racist warfare and set communities on each other, should be a government advisers, is not going to like HP.

Benji has long moved on.

And do you have even the slightest hint of evidence that this woman has been “stirring up Muslim grievances” or “telling Muslims to be on a war footing”?

Because if not – this REALLY is McCarthyism.

and “the SWP promote racist warfare” – what drivel

And it is certainly not the first time it’s been evident around here.

Someone who defends the BNP as ‘not raving fascists’

Don’t lie. I just said that not all members of the BNP are raving fascists; clearly many are, but some (as I said) are like very right wing members of the Conservative Party.

Somebody help me: Is the SWP a democratic centralist party whose members are required to follow the party line or not?

Ven, maybe you missed the bit where it was revealed that she is a member of the SWP.

SWP’s statements to the Muslim community in the east end have been well documented; their links to racist organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah are all out there on the record.

If she doesn’t believe in these things then she should resign from the SWP immediately.

I also said the BNP is more of a threat than the SWP; this is based not only on my experiences of living in Bradford, but on the fact the BNP won nearly three times the number of votes of Respect in 2005, and regularly out poll them.

Benji, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be entitled to those views about the BNP – if you think they are not all raving fascists, and the SWP are decent anti racists who should be advisers to the government on community relations, then that’s a matter for you. It’s no surprise you would attack HP though. That’s all I’m saying. We know where you’re coming from.

Benji, usually one only makes such a point to refute someone who disagrees with it. Otherwise we call this a straw man.

.Ven, maybe you missed the bit where it was revealed that she is a member of the SWP

No, I didn’t.

I will repeat my question:

Do you have even the slightest hint of evidence that this woman has been “stirring up Muslim grievances” or “telling Muslims to be on a war footing”?

Ven, the point is she is a member of the SWP that subscribes to those views. Whilst that remains the case any sensible person would have to say she is banned from advising the government on Muslim issues.

Glad to clear that up.

Mike

Sabiha Iqbal herself renders David’s simplistic comparisons of the SWP with the BNP as absurd. Clearly, those appointing this advisory group can make clear judgments on individuals – not judge purely on the basis of party membership.

Don’t get me wrong, I almost feel sorry for brainwashed kids like this who have fallen prey to this cult and are doing the dirty work of its henchmen far away.

We are doing her a great service by highlighting how dangerous her presence is on such a sensitive body. One day she may well thank HP for saving her political life.

She certainly won’t be thanking the likes of Zin and Benji who egged her on.

But that’s all in the future. The priority now is stopping her on moral and ethical grounds.

Look, I know “guilt by association” is a very popular (and I must say, impeccably Soviet) technique to smear people around here.

Strangely – I believe in the concept of individual responsibility, and individual conscience, and think groupthink – or any kind of “communal mentality” as something profoundly dangerous and that is well along the road to the sort of totalitarianism that the likes of the SWP would love to emulate…

So – again. What has this specific woman done, specifically (and I am interested in her own actions, not those of anyone else who is a member of the same “party” as her) that makes her appointment so objectionable?

It’s a very bad, stupid and dangerous idea.

Unless you are going to have a Young Hindu group, Young Christian Group, Young Sikh,et cetc etc and give them all exactly the same access to Ministers, in which case Ministers won’t get any work done.

The last thing you should communicate to Muslims is that you think they are special, a special case, people who deserve to be treated in a special way because that is exactly what too many of them think already.

The message to be communicated to Muslim citizens of the UK should be “You are not special. We aren’t interested in your special problems.
We want you to get along in society just like everyone else and stop moaning about all your imaginary problems.” Essentially the same message should of course be communicated to all religious groups.

Of course Muslims may have REAL problems (facing racial abuse, disproportionate numbers in prison, drug abuse, bad housing, domestic violence poor facility in the English language, etc etc) but these are religious problems per se, although they may reflect Muslims’ self imposed isolation and adherence to outmoded religious ideas.

But what they call problems e.g. demands for prayer rooms or banning of books say are not problems – or rather they are problems being imposed on the rest of society for no good reason.

Benjamin spouts his usual nonsense yet again, with his cookie-cutter synthetic indignation at reasonable criticism of a government quango.

Zin, with his screeching about McCarthyism, is equally an idiot.

Anyway you are basically labouring under the delusion that the BNP and SWP are directly comparable

You are the delusional one. They are both racist organisations.

So is the idea that this woman is not a good member of the SWP, that she doesn’t follow the party line, and does not wish to overthrow the bourgeois state? If so, why haven’t the leadership thrown her out for such deviations?

Equating her with some BNP meathead goes beyond stupid, and into the realms of nasty

Screeching nonsense. According to this idiot, all BNP members are ’some meathead’, and the SWP is not an antisemitic organisation.

What has this specific woman done, specifically (and I am interested in her own actions, not those of anyone else who is a member of the same “party” as her) that makes her appointment so objectionable?

Chosen, personally and deliberately, to join an antisemitic organisation.
Will you join the idiot Benjamin in claiming that the SWP’s antisemitism is a ’storm in a teacup’?

God I really wish you’d go away.

Venichka, you obviously don’t understand how party politics works, nor know of the very strict nature of SWP party politics, so there is no point in trying to engage with you.

Leave it to the people around here.

Crikey

Another thread about Benjamin.

Do we really have to explain what McCarthyism was?

Because if not – this REALLY is McCarthyism

Clearly, you don’t have a clue about the difference between McCarthyism and expressing our opinions in a supposedly free society.

One trait of McCarthyism is targeting folk in the work related arena for being members of political parties

Work related arena? What language does this person speak? I thought he was a native Brit.

Whatever that silly phrase means, we are talking here about a political appointment. You do know what that is, right? (Hope springs eternal …).

Excellent post, Field.

Sadly, we are misgoverned by spivs, morons, crooks and cowards, and they always cave in when faced by bullies.

I assume no one thinks that the SWP is a fuzzy kind of party, whose members think, say and do what they like. So the idea must be that this woman is a bad member of the SWP, who ignores the party line and goes her own way (and has somehow managed not to get thrown out for her transgressions). Is this plausible?

This is what the SWP does. With no popular base, it will place its members in any new community body or social organization, one will make an action point and, lo!, there’s a ready-made cohort of volunteers. At the time of the Criminal Justice Act opposition, this was tried with an Edinburgh protest group – say, Edinburgh Against the Criminal Justice Act. Other members, to their credit, saw what was happening and resisted.

The response? To sneak off and set up something like Edinburgh Stop the Criminal Justice Act.

As for naming 1st Year university students who’ve already revealed their names in the context of the initiative, I’m sure they’d be happy to tout their ‘activism’ and daub their names agaist whichever freshers’ fayre stall or extra-campus event. Take the rough with the smooth.

The irresponsible uber-greedy activities of money grubbing bastards, one at least of who is linked to by this blog

Zin?

There seem to be two issues at play here:

1. Is the SWP a racist and totalitarian organisation?
2. Should a person’s political affiliations have any bearing on their suitability as a political adviser to the government?

The answers to both seem to me to be a resounding ‘yes’. By all means put forward a sensible case why one or both of the answers is ‘no’, but all this talk of McCarthyism is, frankly, horseshit. That she may not subscribe to the policies of her party of choice is irrelevant conjecture.

Tim Allon sums it up.

Amen.

It’s a valid criticism that a member of a political organisation (even at 17, shock) which has members that support terrorism (Iraqi ‘resistance’ or ‘resistance’ against Israel) should not be appointed to a point of power within the government.

She may be ‘idealist’ but fuck me, so are were Youth Hitler.

No they are not the same, one was National Socialist the other is Trans Socialist. One went on to kill the Jews, the other has members who act in support of terrorists who kill them.

The claim that the BNP are a ‘bigger threat’ is laughable to anybody that has had to use the public transport system in London in the past 3 years. The current most significant and immediate threat to innocent life in the UK is terrorism. Not monkey brains shouting repatriation for effnics after a fucking Millwall game.

Whatever happened to ‘Liberty is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear’? (or whatever it is exactly.). Incidentally, the way that the banks are crashing right left and centre, this issue may either become extremely pressing or a complete diversion.

Count me in as someone else perturbed by this blogpost. The SWP, stupid as it is, isn’t the BNP, and haven’t yet started to organise intimidating marches against particular ethnic groups.

Sabiha is 17, and lots of us made stupid political choices at that age; at 16, I tried to join the old Worker’s Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_Party_of_Ireland), not even knowing they were linked to the Official IRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_IRA).

Finally, there’s are quite a few ugly commenters on HP, and elsewhere, whose bravery probably extends to abusing 17 year old girls, imagining that they are brave Landsknecht on the walls of Vienna.

P.

***Sighs***

Is there any point in pointing out once again the non-personal nature of this political disagreement? For all we know Sabiha Iqbal will be as shocked as the rest of us to find out she is a member of a racist political party that has been at the forefront of creating community tensions in recent years, and doesn’t know it wants to overthrow democracy. We don’t know. But either way she cannot advise the government whilst being a member.

As I’ve said before, I feel sorry for her. She’s probably been brainwashed. It’s the people who introduced her to this extremism that should be held accountable – the Mr Bigs. But again, that doesn’t mean she should be advising the government.

Also, you can’t have it both ways. She can’t say she is this fragile little girl who shouldn’t be criticised, whilst at the same time saying she is suitable to be advising the govenrment on the tough situation amongst Muslim youths.

I meant *you* shouldn’t claim she is too fragile to be criticised. She hasn’t said this.

David this is just plain wrong.

I have long expressed the view that the SWP have moved outside the norms of the left. (Too little time to expand). They have however never been, even at their worst, comparable/equateable to the BNP. And whilst there are refugees from the far right who we embrace, most youth attracted to the SWP are progressively motivated.

It says everything you need to know about this blog, that the merest hint of dissent or questioning of Israel is labelled anti semitic, yet people suggesting that Muslims only contribution to British society is “kebabs” doesnt even get acknowledged, let alone condemned. Seems those who lambast supposed racism against Jews, dont apply the same standards (recognise that phrase?) to racism against Muslims.

Muslims are not a race, idiot.

SWP doesn’t ‘question’ Israel, idiot.

The SWP, stupid as it is, isn’t the BNP, and haven’t yet started to organise intimidating marches against particular ethnic groups.

Diversionary non-argument. They are also not Hamas, the Mormons, the Waffen SS, the Moonies, the Allotment Society or Tibetan monks. What we are talking about is what they are, which is a viciously anti-democratic and racist bunch of thugs.

Sabiha is 17, and lots of us made stupid political choices at that age

Then as a stupid 17-year old she shouldn’t be ‘advising’ the government which I maintain with my taxes.

Forget being fixated on whether they are directly comparable to the BNP in every detail – a bit of a straw man again – and instead focus on whether members of this extremely divisive, anti democratic party that has links to racism and community tensions should be advising the government on Muslims.

Bob Latchford, i didn’t see the comment, but what is wrong with kebabs in any event? You don’t have to like them personally, but many people do, and they would find your sneering comments insulting.

One of the main contributions of Indians to British society is curry restaurants, yet it would not be deemed insulting to state this fact. Why the double standard?

Mike seems to be the one of the very few people taking a rational stance here.

Everybody is rushing to the aid of this girl, because

1. she is a girl
2. she is 17
3. she’s being attacked attacked attacked by vicious mean men!!

1 & 2 are correct, but 3??? Where? Most people who aren’t happy with the appointment have the reservations based on the actions on her chosen political point.

their bravery probably extends to abusing 17 year old girls

Ok now the mean mean are abusing young girls. Wtf are you talking about specifically?

I spent many years fighting the SWP, I’m proud to say that Tony Cliff himself used to ask that I be ejected from rooms and halls before he started speaking. My view is that the SWP is a trotskyite cult –

Once we recognize the SWP as a cult we can start to be a little more sympathetic to individual members, particularly young members. Perhaps with a little kindness and understanding they can be reclaimed and/or turned.

Threads like this are good because people can be educated. I’m glad this issue has been aired.

“Also, you can’t have it both ways. She can’t say she is this fragile little girl who shouldn’t be criticised, whilst at the same time saying she is suitable to be advising the govenrment on the tough situation amongst Muslim youths.”

Precisely!

She is being defended on grounds that are both sexist and patronising. If she is old enough to be politically involved – particularly at this level – she is old enough to brave the rough and tumble of political debate and take criticism.

David H (and i am sure that you are the one I know)

Agree, as I said above, less sure about how much “education” is going on. Avoiding Red Scare stuff would help mind.

David T writes
Yes, I grant you this. The SWP does not personally beat people up.

Come on, DT. You are somewhat obsessed about the ins and outs of grouplets like the SWP and the AWL yet don’t know that leading SWPers “tend” to threaten and physically attack members of other groups (not just the AWL), e.g. for the “crime” of handing out leaflets at the SWP annual event “Marxism”? It’s quite well documented. THe ex-Militant “Socialist Party” mention it here http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr01/alliance.html
and a much more recent occurance when members of the “CPGB” were attacked by Martin Smith gets a blog post at Shiraz Socialist
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/swp-leader-physically-assaults-cpgb-member-at-marxism/

You have to wonder how the SWP “deals with” its own members…

I do think the Govt is once again proving itself idiotically ill advised. Why have they appointed a member of the SWP as an advisor? It seems when it comes to certain ethnic groups any self declared activist will do.

I made a documentary called ‘who speaks for the Muslims?” in 2002 on this very issue,’ the film investigated New Labours relationship with the MCB. It showed how in the wake of 9/11 the government were so eager to build bridges with the British Muslim community (which is a good thing) they dispensed with background checks and found themselves courting self appointed Muslim leaders who espoused antisemitic and salafist views.(a bad thing!) It seems little has changed.

Oh yes, the second incident referred to above took place in a meeting on the theme of “fighting unions”.

SP – I’m sure that I’m the one you know too. I agree with you that most people who join SWP are progressively motivated, that’s why we need to get to them when their young.

Of course when I see ‘we’ I don’t mean me, because quite frankly I have better things to do with my time and I really don’t give that much of a fuck!

David H

Aye agree – though I think I should probably do more with my spare minutes. All the best.

PS

Sandra says hello

When I was 17, I joined the Socialist Worker’s Student Society. About three days later I got a call from an earnest young man asking me to come on a march in Manchester to “smash the capitalists”.

That was me through with fringe politics there and then.

No, John P, Kebabs are not Greek. Kebab is a simple test for whether someone is a Greek or a Greek Cypriot. A Greek Cypriot would use that Turkish word, a Greek would say Souvlaki.

I was more peturbed by the expression “liberal democracy”. Surely liberalism is an ideoology that peaked in the century or so before democracy? As shown in the UK, where every Liberal Prime Minister was an opponent of one-adult one-vote.

David’s text says ‘member’ the daily express says ‘member’ but the HP headline says ‘activist’. Most people would imo recognise there’s a difference between being a party member and a party activist, even in a weird party like the SWP.

Just another sleight of hand we have come to expect. It seems that Sabiha Iqbal is pretty busy om other projects, so the extent to which she is an activist in the SWP must be in doubt. To HP, however, SWP members are not individuals; the SWP is simply an evil monolith. So member/activist, whatever, leave such apparently trifling details to folk who are interested in the individual.

‘To HP, however, SWP members are not individuals.’

To the SWP, SWP members are not individuals. It’s called democratic centralism.

HP and the SWP should be aware that it doesn’t always work.

So the idea is that she is a bad SWP member who does not follow the party line. Presumably she will be expelled any day now.

Oh look…sue r has popped up …what a surprise

this whole post is a new low for harrys place…david t you come across as obsessive and nasty…

‘david t you come across as obsessive and nasty…’

You mean he comes across to you as obsessive and nasty. You can’t speak for everyone.

@ bob-b

‘liberty… is the right to tell people what theyt don’t want to hear’

Saeed

Welcome to this blog. Im sure you will find you have a lot on common with the views expressed on it. And obviously, the fact that you think this post is a ‘new low’ is demoralising to all concerned.

‘Bob Latchford’ – thought we’d lost you. Glad to see though that everyone has realised that you make the same point again and again, whatever the topic… and thus they ignore you.

I mean the ‘everyone who dares criticise Israel is accused of being an anti-semite’ line isn’t very original is it.

And the fact that a stupid comment about kebabs was ignored is obviously hugely important isn’t it. Perhaps its simply because stupid, ignorant comments posted by some individuals simply to get a reaction…….are best ignored.

Kinda like your ‘comments’ really.

Matt

oh…and I repeat, strictly emphasising my own opinion (not that of this blog)….

‘Bob Latchford’ you are either an anti-semite, or some dull, unimportant individual (could be both of course) who gets a kick out of being able to accuse people of making unsubstantiated allegations of anti-semitism against you.

In either case, I suspect you are in need more of some psychiatric help, rather than constant visists to blogs like this. Therapy it ain’t.

Matt

David, did you ever get round to asking Paul Mason whether he was still a member of whatever guilty-by-association-with-the-SWP fraction of the Fourth International you claimed he was the other week?.

“I didn’t agree with folk trying to get that ballet dancer sacked because she was member of the BNP. I said I was against that at the time. ”

Nor did I. Being a member of an extremist political party should not be taken into account for most jobs, whether dancer, IT support or what have you. Different for high security clearance jobs.

As far as an adviser on political matters goes, however, I’d be a bit dubious about bringing on someone from a far left group. If you’ve ever attended an event like a demo and then read an account of it in a far left publication, total misreprentation is the house style. Numbers are inflated, the bravery of those taking part exalted, even if they were under police protection. I once worked on a arts and political magazine which had SWP writers for it and one told me that we should aim for a “veneer of objectivity”, ie lie but so cleverly no-one would see we were lying. Since then I would not believe anything from an SWPer unless I had some corroborating evidence.

If this young woman is honest, she’ll be sickened by them sooner or later. If she’s a born politico, she’ll find that being a member of SWP does her career no good, and leave them anyway.

This advisory panel is presumably not about bigging up young people’s CVs (though it will have this effect for some of them). It’s about getting good advice ultimately to prevent terrorist attacks.

I’ve come a bit late to this but, quite frankly, some of the comments here are bizarre.

Firstly, if someone joins a political party then it is reasonable to associate them with the policies of that party; not of other individual party members, but of the party itself. This is not ‘guilt by association’; the only person who has associated Sabiha Iqbal with the SWP is Sabiha Iqbal herself. If somebody joins a political party without knowing or caring what their policies are, then they are stupid.

Secondly, and notwithstanding what I have just written, the main question is not Iqbal’s decision making, but that of the DCLG. In particular, the idea that her membership of the SWP was not only no big deal, but even worse, something to put on the press release alongside her membership of Love Music Hate Racism; as if membership of the SWP is a sign of her progressive, community-building, open-minded approach. Perhaps the ministers at the DCLG should speak to their Labour party colleagues in Tower Hamlets for a reminder of just how divisive the SWP, via Respect, have been in local communities.

Thirdly, the SWP do “organise intimidating marches against particular ethnic groups”. Many British Jews were intimidated – frightened, shocked, alarmed, angered were other reactions – by the sight of thousands of marchers in Central London waving “We are all Hizbollah” placards and hearing George Galloway shouting “I am here to glorify the resistance, Hezbollah. I am here to glorify the leader, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah” from the platform.

Fourthly, as others have said, there is no logic by which this government initiative should be ringfenced from criticism, which seems to be what some people here are suggesting.

And to add one more thing: it is possible to argue that a person’s political affiliations have no relevance to their professional life. It is completely absurd to argue that somebody’s membership of a political party has no relevance to their appointment as a political advisor to the government.

Excellent comments by Dave Rich.

Hi, Saeed! :-)

Dave Rich
I wasn’t arguing that a person’s political affiliations have no bearing on their appointment to a political post, but this crap that being a member of the SWP is equivalent to being a member of the BNP should be nailed. And would that be were it stopped! There’s a suggestion above that the SWP were in some way involved in 7/7!

I had never heard of Ms Iqbal before this post, but I venture in 10 years time she’s less likely to be a member of the SWPtnan she is to still be involved in useful community work. Which is probably more than many of her detractors can claim.

Why’s everyone on this british Blog suddenly starteds spelling adviser as advisor? Either way it’s another exaggeration, though appointee to a quago’s feelgood talking shop doesn’t sound scary enough to warrant a headline.

this whole post is a new low for harrys place…david t you come across as obsessive and nasty…

Nothing is lower than a twitchy jihadi whose belief systeme crumbles before his very eyes.

This move will be a boon to The Conservatives because associating with Islamist rot has now become the kiss of death for a political party stupid enough to do so.

Islamism was the drop of vinagre that curdled the sweet cream of leftist politics!

I also feel Sabiha Iqbal ( and you!) should be locked up in padded rooms, deprogrammed, and then assigned new names like “Sugar” or “Mitzy”

You know, something less pagan than your current monikers

‘this crap that being a member of the SWP is equivalent to being a member of the BNP should be nailed’

No doubt the SWP differs from the BNP in various ways, but as long as it is committed to the overthrow of the bourgeois state it is very odd for representatives of the ‘bourgeois state’ to appoint members of the party to an advisory body.

Well, well, well. Harry’s Place has been joined by the Daily Mail and the Daily Express. Lovely.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1072612/Teenage-Trotsky-Cabinets-new-adviser-radical-Islam.html

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/65063/Muslims-get-1-3m-hotline-to-Cabinet

“Hurrah for the Blackshirts!” as your allies used to say.

I am going to try to do a separate post on this. However, in brief, I do think that the SWP is a pernicious organisation, which has significantly contributed to inter-communal tensions, and whose modus operandi in recent years at least, has been Jew baiting.

Not only that: it has created a false impression that there is a “War on Muslims”, in order to recruit members.

There is a tendency to regard the SWP as an organisation with “wrong methods, but heart in the right place”. It is not. It is in many ways, the mirror image of the BNP. And its partners in RESPECT have specifically peddled “jewish conspiracy” lies to its constituency, in precisely the same way that the BNP does.

What is the difference between the BNP celebrating fascist terrorists (which it used to, but does not do any more!), telling its constituency that Whites are under attack in their own homes, while blaming Jews: and the SWP doing precisely the same thing in relation to British Muslims.

You might say: the BNP is bigger, it gets more votes, it is more of a threat.

That is true, in an electoral sense, certainly. However, the SWP has been working for four years, through its STWC and RESPECT fronts, to convince British Muslims that they’re being attacked. That is a lie. It is a significant source of tension. The SWP are major players in this.

I don’t think that this is true of all revolutionary left organisations. I can’t think of another extant far Left organisation – the WRP being defunct – that has played such a significant role in whipping up mistrust and hatred in this country.

Zin

I would hope that liberal left papers would similarly take on board the need to exclude members of a Jew baiting party, that lies to Muslims about there being a “War on Muslims”, and which parades terrorists and anti-semites around the country, from positions of political influence.

I say “I would hope” that is the case.

I think we have a little way to go before the racism and extremism of the SWP renders them unacceptable to any but those on the utter fringes of politics.

But don’t worry.

I’m sure we’ll get there.

I’m rather impressed by the Daily Mail’s coverage.

They appear to have read Chris Harman’s The Prophet and the Proletariat!

‘I’m rather impressed by the Daily Mail’s coverage.’

Well, it comments that ‘Miss Iqbal’s Trotskyist party campaigns against wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.’ This, of course, is wrong. It doesn’t campaign against these wars. It just supports the other side.

Yes, that’s true.

I just meant that it was impressive that they know who Trotsky was, and what the SWP stands for.

David T

Have you met or spoken to Iqbal? You obsession with the SWP is obvious, but it seems to me you ignore the individual. Why do you think she was appointed? What processes are gone through to appoint people to these bodies?

I think many people do not share your view that the SWP are simply equivalent to the BNP. Even the Labour Party – no friend of the SWP, that’s for sure – does not share that view.

Iqbal herself seems a very good example as to why your notion is not the case. Have you ever met a BNP member who works at Barnados, sets up non-profits to help folk, and is involved in anti-racist work? Have you ever lived in Bradford? Have you met SWP members in Bradford?

The Daily Mail and Express (especially the Express) are known for being against multiculturalism, and whip up fears about Muslims, immigrants, asylum seekers etc. That’s their angle on all this. Look at the Express headline:

Muslims Get £1.3M Hotline to Cabinet

Is the SWP a party which aims to overthrow the bourgeois state and imposes a democratic centralist discipline on its members or not? If it is, the fact that some SWP members are decent sorts engaged in some good works is irrelevant in the present context.

Daily Mail coverage is more positive about Iqbal, who seems to be multi-talented. Nice middle-class girl, no wonder she’s in the SWP.

.I’m rather impressed by the Daily Mail’s coverage.

I fear that is because all of the former Daily Mail staff (who wouldn’t know that sort of thing) are now working at the Telegraph, which has obviously had a pernicious effect on the quality of the Telegraph – but evidently has meant they’ve had to find some new, better, staff at Why Oh Why Towers.

Still, one longs for Conrad Black to return like a knight on a horse to reclaim the paper that he ran (mostly) so magnificently, unlike those that replaced him

“I think many people do not share your view that the SWP are simply equivalent to the BNP. Even the Labour Party – no friend of the SWP, that’s for sure – does not share that view. ”

I do appreciate that, but I think that the failure to regard the SWP as a pernicious organisation that, like the BNP, must be fought against, is an error.

It is an error that stems, in part, from nostalgic recollections of fringe politics on university campuses. However, the SWP of today is, I think, worse than the SWP of the 1980s. It isn’t an ‘idealistic’ party. It is a vicious party, that promotes terrorist organisations, lies to Muslims about being subject to a global attack, and which directs much of its energies towards encouraging hatred of Jews: that they cover up for by parading Michael Rosen and Gilad Atzmon as their alibis!

I will be doing everything that I can to shift the rose-tinted conception of the SWP as ‘good hearts’.

“Have you ever met a BNP member who works at Barnados, sets up non-profits to help folk, and is involved in anti-racist work?”

I imagine that there are many BNP members who do useful things in their local communities, are involved in PTA work, bake cakes for the church bazaar.
I’d imagine that few of them are involved in anti-racist work. However, as the SWP’s idea of “anti-racist work” involves promoting genocidal racist organistions, and then lying about their genocidal racism, I’m not convinced that anything that the SWP does ‘counts’.

“The Daily Mail and Express (especially the Express) are known for being against multiculturalism, and whip up fears about Muslims, immigrants, asylum seekers etc.”

The Express is a disgrace.

The Daily Mail, I would expect, will have a large readership among middle class Muslims living in the home counties. It is also well known for having run a campaign for justice for Stephen Lawrence. My guess is that the Daily Mail is closer to the mainstream of British Muslim opinion than the Guardian.

OT entirely but a question.

A while back there was a post about David Henshaw’s encounter with George Galloway on Press TV.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/09/15/george-galloway-and-his-fans/

David Henshaw commented:-

“My lingering thought from the absurd exchange was simply how very peculiar Galloway is. Before the cameras rolled, he engaged in a weird kind of breathing exercise, as if to pump himself up. Am I right in thinking he used to be a boxer?”

I saw an account of this encounter including the breathing exercises repeated in the 19 September’s issue of Private Eye p8. Was this nicked from Harry’s Place?

Can I add, Benji, that the reason that you don’t take the SWP’s influence seriously is because you don’t take racism seriously, if it is directed at Jews.

Hamas and Hezbollah are both organisations that openly proclaim their desire to murder Jews – not “Zionists”, but Jews – and back up that obligation with scriptural authority.

Is there are political group which teaches its followers that God wants his faithful to kill (say) black or asian people? Or members of any other religion? I’m having difficulty thinking of a party that promotes that. Perhaps Combat 18. Or – in the past – the sectarian “Loyalist” murderers. But even they didn’t think that God wanted them to kill all members of a particular cultural group.

Yet this is precisely what Hamas and Hezbollah do teach their followers.

And the SWP have toured around Hamas and Hezbollah leaders, and attacked as racists, anybody who points out that they are inciters of genocide against Jews.

Benji, Zin, and the others. You don’t take that sort of genocidal racism seriously.

Fair enough. It is helpful to know where you stand on these things.

“Was this nicked from Harry’s Place?”

Probably!

“Can I add, Benji, that the reason that you don’t take the SWP’s influence seriously is because you don’t take racism seriously, if it is directed at Jews.”

David, with the greatest of respect, this insinuation of anti-semitism against someone who disagrees with you is the sort of thing I expect from Fabian or Nearly Oxfordian but not you. Would you like to extend this label to myself, Modernity, Venchika or anyone else who takes issue with your equating the SWP with the BNP?

My guess is that the Daily Mail is closer to the mainstream of British Muslim opinion than the Guardian.

*holds head in hands*

“It is however one of the foremost inspirers and encouragers, both of racism, and of support for Islamist terrorism, in this country”

I often wonder whether David T believes the tub thumping right wing rubbish he writes. Its actually sadder if he does.

I imagine that there are many BNP members who do useful things in their local communities, are involved in PTA work, bake cakes for the church bazaar.

Very flippant; I am asking about Iqbal. Iqbal has formed a non-profit organisation to work in the community, works voluntarily for Barnardos, and does anti-racism work. I think you must know that you will find it very, very difficult to find any BNP member like that.

I think you have it in your mind that Iqbal is some sort of SWP mole. It’s imaginative and intriguing, but the reality is probably more prosaic: she is a one time student lefty who will move on to better things – like many, many others.

I am wondering if you are (in some ways) as dogmatic as the SWP Central Committee itself: refusing to see people as individuals, refusing to see that anybody you perceive as an enemy may have good heart, may be a complex human being, and believing in monolithic political entities.

Do you know Iqbal as an individual? Or do you see just see a political label?

Well, that’s all very good Mike

Try this experiment.

Assume that there is a far right wing group – let’s call it the BNP – which toured around the country, members of a White Supremacist political party which had, in its foundational document, the words:

“Niggers are the cause of all the world’s problems. God says that in the final days, his faithful servants will lynch all the niggers they can find”

What would your reaction be?

You’d be horrified, wouldn’t you?

I hope you’d engage, actively, in campaigning work against that party.

This is PRECISELY what the SWP has been doing over the last few years.

Now, if you don’t think that’s a parallel:

(a) Why?

(b) If you think it is a fair parallel, then ask yourself: why aren’t you horrified by what the SWP has been doing?

I accept that there may be a whole range of reasons why people aren’t horrified by this. Not believing that the SWP are ‘that bad’, and that their ‘hearts are in the right place’. Thinking that their supposed stance against racism is mitigation. Accepting the SWP’s arguments, that Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t racist or genocidal.

At the heart of all of this, though, is not taking racism directed at Jews seriously.

Bob B
“Is the SWP a party which aims to overthrow the bourgeois state and imposes a democratic centralist discipline on its members or not?”

Perhaps in the imagination of its leaders. But to an objective eye, it looks like a bunch of vaguely creepy decommissioned FE college lecturers attempting to impress an immature rank-and-file. For the umpteenth time, it’s no BNP.

“My guess is that the Daily Mail is closer to the mainstream of British Muslim opinion than the Guardian.”

I certainly see the Daily Mail being read by a lot of what Sunny would call “brown people”.

The Mail and , particularly, the Express are far more effective at promoting racism than the SWP. That’s why those of us who are genuinely concerned about racism take the former far more seriously than the latter.

‘Do you know Iqbal as an individual?’

What a bizarre question. Presumably no one here knows George Bush, Gordon Brown, George Galloway, Nick Griffin, David Cameron or Vladimir Putin as individuals, and certainly no one here knew Winston Churchill, Adolf Hitler or Leon Trotsky as individuals. But this doesn’t preclude making a judgment on their politics

Benji

“Very flippant; I am asking about Iqbal. Iqbal has formed a non-profit organisation to work in the community, works voluntarily for Barnardos, and does anti-racism work. I think you must know that you will find it very, very difficult to find any BNP member like that.”

I doubt it.

I’m sure that lots of BNP people do work in their community. What possible evidence can you have for thinking that this is not so.

What anti-racism work does this woman do?

Did she, for example, campaign against the BNP’s touring of genocidal racists, and anti-semites around the country? I’d have thought that a genuine anti-racist couldn’t possibly remain a member of an organisation that actively promotes racism.

“I think you have it in your mind that Iqbal is some sort of SWP mole. It’s imaginative and intriguing, but the reality is probably more prosaic: she is a one time student lefty who will move on to better things – like many, many others. ”

Good.

After she has left, and assuming that she doesn’t support to the SWP’s racist campaigns from outside the organisation, she will no doubt be an ornament to any organisation which she works with.

“Do you know Iqbal as an individual? Or do you see just see a political label?”

Do you know any of these people as individuals?

What I can tell about these individuals, is that they are standing behind a BNP banner.

Some are, no doubt, lovely people. They may make tea for the elderly, and visit the sick.

However, they’re members of a fascist organisation: and therefore I wouldn’t want them advising the government on how to connect with white Christians.

Would you?

Can I add, Benji, that the reason that you don’t take the SWP’s influence seriously is because you don’t take racism seriously, if it is directed at Jews.

You can add that if you want, but it isn’t actually true. I just think your view of the SWP is simplistic and exaggerated, and your direct comparison of it to the BNP simply does not stack up. That’s not to say there are no problems in the SWP – there most certainly are.

I hate all racism and antisemitism, any form of prejudice. One is molded by life’s experiences; through my experience living in Bradford and elsewhere, and not least the election results of the BNP, I feel the greater threat comes from the BNP, which has a long history of racism of antisemitism and racism.

I have encountered at first hand BNP members in Bradford and its an experience I shall never forget. Members of the BNP get elected to office in Bradford too. As I have lived in Bradford, I have no doubt whatsoever that the greatest threat of racism and disorder, by a very long way, comes from the BNP in that city.

Andrew

I agree with you on the Express.

The Daily Mail, by contrast, is equivocal. At the present, it is a particular sort of conservative paper: and not a prominent promoter of racism. It has, in fact, run anti-racist campaigns. It is mildly, generally, xenophobic.

I think that the Daily Mail has taken the view that there are a sufficient number of non-White European social conservatives for them to want to cater to their prejudices as well.

‘to an objective eye, it [the SWP] looks like a bunch of vaguely creepy decommissioned FE college lecturers attempting to impress an immature rank-and-file’

So should both the vaguely creepy decommissioned FE college lecturers and the immature rank-and-file be appointed to government quangos? Or just the latter?

In that case, Benji, can I have your answer to my question above?

Assume that there is a far right wing group – let’s call it the BNP – which toured around the country, members of a White Supremacist political party which had, in its foundational document, the words:

“Niggers are the cause of all the world’s problems. God says that in the final days, his faithful servants will lynch all the niggers they can find”

What would your reaction be?

You’d be horrified, wouldn’t you?

I hope you’d engage, actively, in campaigning work against that party.

This is PRECISELY what the SWP has been doing over the last few years.

Now, if you don’t think that’s a parallel:

(a) Why?

(b) If you think it is a fair parallel, then ask yourself: why aren’t you horrified by what the SWP has been doing?

I see you are making the simplistic BNP comparison again, David.

Look, if you really think you can find someone like Iqbal in the BNP, doing her sort of work, well, words fail me. Its utterly absurd.

Love Music Hate Racism is clearly part of the grand conspiracy too.

If Iqbal is such as jolly good sort, as Benjamin thinks, she will presumably break with the SWP before too long. Once she does, she might be suitable for a government quango.

David

I don’t support the SWP, and of course I condemn its links to Islamists.

However, I don’t think your direct comparison of the SWP with the BNP is accurate. I think its rather more complex. In my experience too, the members of the two parties as individuals are quite different (this is important because you took direct aim at an individual in your post).

You see, you can’t answer my question.

You can’t explain how an anti-racist organisation could tour around anti-semites like Gilad Atzmon, and promote Hamas, Hezbollah, and their representatives.

You’re not prepared to say “they’re not genocidal and racist”, because you know they are.

Go on, answer the question!

Bob-B
I don’t exactly why Ms Iqbal was appointed to this quango, but I suspect it was very much in spite of her membership of the Sevenoaks Wankers Party.

Do members of the SWP take orders from the Central Committee or not? If they do, what they are like as individuals is of no importance as far as their political lives are concerned.

Oh I see.

So you accept that the SWP now is a promoter of genocidal racist organisations.

But you don’t think this matters, because you’re talking about your experience of individuals.

Tell me: what is so wrong about the BNP individuals in this picture?

I bet that lots of the people in that picture help out around their communities, in all sorts of ways.

Let’s say that one of them does sponsored walks for Cancer Research?

Would you want them advising the Government on how best to connect with alienated Whites?

I venture in 10 years time she’s less likely to be a member of the SWPtnan she is to still be involved in useful community work. Which is probably more than many of her detractors can claim.

This is complete moonshine – nothing but empty words on a keyboard. You have no idea whatsoever what her detractors do now or will be doing in 10 years’ time, or what she’ll be doing.

If Iqbal is such as jolly good sort, as Benjamin thinks, she will presumably break with the SWP before too long. Once she does, she might be suitable for a government quango.

Cart before the horse. She is 17. Working with the quango is part of life’s experience and then that will help her move on to better things. I think most folk don’t see her membership of the SWP as the major factor here; she was chosen because of her work and contacts in the community, and her contributions to the group are key, looking forward. So let’s all relax, and see how it goes. I wish her the best.

David, with the greatest of respect, this insinuation of anti-semitism against someone who disagrees with you is the sort of thing I expect from Fabian or Nearly Oxfordian

You really are a sad tosser. I don’t use this ‘insinuation’ (I never insinuate – I say what I think) against someone because s/he disagrees with me, but because my assessment is that they have said something antisemitic.

Fabian will be able to rebuff this screeching nonsense for himself, but I’d say that he could say much the same thing. And I am honoured to be tarred with the same dumb brush as he.

Mike S

It probably was – although we only know that she’s an SWP activist because, inexplicably, the Government told us! So obviously, it registered with somebody as a good thing.

Can you answer my question.

I’m genuinely not trying to trick you, or Benji up. You’re regulars here, and we discuss things frankly and cordially (most of the time). This isn’t finger pointing or accusation slinging.

I seriously can’t work out why somebody, knowing the SWP’s work in the last 7 years, promoting genocidal racist organisations, would viscerally think:

“Oh, they’re not in the same class as the BNP”

The BNP is a dangerous, vicious organisation. However it never toured around David Copeland, or marched behind banners claiming “We are all David Copeland Now”

Look, David, I just don’t agree with your direct, simple comparison of the SWP with the BNP. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

So let’s all relax, and see how it goes. I wish her the best.

The usual mealy-mouthed, patronising nonsense from Benjamin. Who the blazes do you think you are, to tell people to ‘relax’? We are discussing what is happening now in our country, a country you have left. Nought to do with you.

“The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the patter.” Dashiell Hammett

Mentioning the BNP in mitigation of the SWP is a complete red herring, and a failure of rational argument. It’s like saying, Ah, well, Hamas is not as bad as the Waffen SS; so that’s all right then.

‘Working with the quango is part of life’s experience and then that will help her move on to better things’

So this quango is some kind of educational institution, is it?

Then Mike S is worth about two bob thruppence.

I certainly see the Daily Mail being read by a lot of what Sunny would call “brown people”.

I live in Zone 3 South London, and anecdotal evidence from train journeys I would suggest that “brown people” do tend to read Daily Mail, actually, and generally the white people will be reading the Guardian or the Indy.

I’d really love to see an ethnic breakdown of newspaper readership in London. I suspect the Guardian would have one of the highest percentages of white readership and Mail one of the highest ethnic readership.

Benji

So the argument is now, “she’ll grow out of it”.

I hope she does. She might. She might not. Nick Griffin was 18 once too.

What matters is that she is a member of an organisation which, for the last 7 years, has done the following:

- They have propagated the lie that there is a global War on Muslims.

- They have created the false impression that Muslims are being persecuted by the Government of this country.

- They have distributed placards to marchers, encouraging them to identify with and support Hezbollah.

- They have promoted speakers from Hamas and Hezbollah.

- They have justified the genocidal racism of these groups.

- They have formed front organisations with the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e Islami.

- Members of their RESPECT front organisation have told the Muslim community that Israel controls the British government, and that the 7/7 bombings were a plot to frame Muslims.

- It also toured around Gilad Atzmon who is an outspoken anti-semite. They denied that he was an anti-semite, and attacked anybody who suggested that he was.

Did this woman participate in any of these events? Does she believe that Jews are directing a war against Muslims? Did she carry a “We are all Hezbollah Now” placard? I don’t know.

I do know, though, that this is mostly what the SWP has been doing.

Put it this way. Lets say that we have, not a 18 year old SWPer, but an 18 year old BNPer. Does that BNPer support repatriation? Do they oppose miscegenation? Perhaps, perhaps not.
We do know, however, what the party promotes and stands for. That’s why it would be wrong for the Government to appoint a BNPer to a committee that was seeking to develop government policy in relation to “whites”.

I base it on my experiences of SWP members compared to BNP members. I really don’t think they are comparable. Of course, I can readily concede that there are numerous things wrong with the SWP, but as individuals, I do not think they are generally comparable.

Maybe it’s images in the mind of Benjamin et al. I think of BNP supporters and my image is of shaven-headed thick thugs beating up non-white people. I think of SWP supporters and my image is of sloppy scruffy permanent students flogging off newspapers. The former is definitely a scarier image than the latter.

Benji

“Look, David, I just don’t agree with your direct, simple comparison of the SWP with the BNP. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.”

Oh no you don’t!

I gave you specific reasons that the SWP is a promoter of racism.

Come on, don’t run away.

You too Mike S!

Anyway, David, I am going to have to call it a day now. Rather late here. But I am willing to have a private bet with you that Iqbal will be just fine!

But the BNP supporters pictured here:

http://www.wikinfo.org/upload/3/39/Bnp_full_demo.jpg

look like nice friendly types. Well turned out. Smiling.

Obviously, they’re supporters of a fascist party, but can you honestly say that none of these people live generous, socially valuable lives?

Benjamin Look, David, I just don’t agree with your direct, simple comparison of the SWP with the BNP. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I think that the point is not to compare the platforms of these two organisations but to say that is you do not invite members of the BNP to the party, (Quangos), then you don’t invite SWP members either for the list of reasons that Davit T has tabulated above.

Benji

Will you tell me why you are not worried by the SWP promoting genocidal racist political movements, and their spokesmen?

I’ve suggested that it is because you don’t take racism directed at Jews seriously.

Can you tell me why that is wrong?

Anybody?

Bueller?

NO
“Mentioning the BNP in mitigation of the SWP is a complete red herring, and a failure of rational argument.”
That was the conceit of the original post. Shame about your reading comprehension, you could have been Actually Oxfordian.
David
We’ve discussed this before. Through reasons that I outlined before the SWP has put itself in a stupid and rather disgusting ideological corner.
However I pose these questions to make your comparison valid?
1) Are SWP members or fellow travellers involved in actively stirring up racial tension?
2) Can you name any SWP members who have been convicted of racial violence, or systematic violence against political opponents, or the planning thereof?
3) Have they made any impact on anything at all by following their current strategy?
I hold no brief for these people at all. I think their pollitics are opportunistic, moronic and increasingly distasteful. But they’re not in the same class in the BNP except either as a vaguely daring debating point, or in the addled imagination of a Littlejohn groupie.
Since, we’re in a sharing mood, did you get hold of Paul Mason?

Incidentally, I don’t disagree with you that the SWP are a more distasteful bunch, than they were in their “Neither Washington nor Moscow” Eighties pomp. But my original point still stands.

Mike S

I did – he sent me an email to say that we’d got it all wrong, and that he’d explain about him and WP. Then he went quiet.

I don’t think, incidentally, that WP is an objectionable group at all: certainly not in the same way as the SWP. They have done none of the things that I have mentioned above, as far as I know.

1) Are SWP members or fellow travellers involved in actively stirring up racial tension?

Yes.

The SWP have been promoting for the past 7 years, the lie that there is a War on Muslims.

A RESPECT council member claimed – in print – that this war was being directed by Israel, which controlled the UK and the US.

Through RESPECT and STWC, they have toured around Hamas and Hezbollah speakers, and encouraged support for these organisations.

They have denied that they are racist or genocidal, despite – in Hamas’ case – the fact that their own founding Covenant contains a promise of genocide against Jews.

2) Can you name any SWP members who have been convicted of racial violence, or systematic violence against political opponents, or the planning thereof?”

The SWP are a weedy bunch. They sometimes scuffle with their opponents, but they don’t have it in them to fight.

There was that pensioner who got it from some RESPECT supporters, for refusing to take a leaflet from them.

I would certainly agree with Dave R, that organising a march through London in which Hezbollah placards and slogans were deployed, and a rally, addressed by Hezbollah speakers, constitutes very clear intimidation against Jews.

3) Have they made any impact on anything at all by following their current strategy?

Yes, I think that they have done the following:

- They have played a significant role in convincing many British Muslims that this country is fighting a war against them, as a Muslim, at home and abroad.

- They have provided ‘left wing’ support to the notion that Hamas and Hezbollah are not racist and genocidal organisations, and that it is therefore not racist to want to kill Jews, or expel them all from Israel.

- They have played a major role in legitimating Atzmon’s politics within the Left.

- They also played a major role in bringing very small Islamist parties – Jamaat and the Muslim Brotherhood – from the fringes of British politics into the centre.

Mike:

“Incidentally, I don’t disagree with you that the SWP are a more distasteful bunch, than they were in their “Neither Washington nor Moscow” Eighties pomp. But my original point still stands.”

I know

Its just that I can’t think of any other group, in recent history – not even the BNP – which has acted as a facilitator of groups which openly proclaim their desire to commit genocide against another cultural group.

The BNP will systematically discriminate against cultural minorities in the UK. Their membership includes thugs and criminals.

However, the BNP at least has not toured political movements that call for “nigger lynchings” around British universities.

That’s not just “distasteful”. In this climate, it is an incitement to murder Jews.

Oh, I should also add:

- they’ve been major players in the racist UCU boycott;

- they’ve been significant promoters of the lie that Jews falsely accuse others of racism in order to prevent criticism of Israel.

That latter lie has been very successful.

I would guess that a little part of you thought that I was falsely accusing the SWP of racism for this reason.

But actually, it isn’t a false charge of racism to object to the promotion of organisations which say, openly, that they expect the “final hour” to come when all Muslims kill all Jews, or that they want to expell all Jews from Israel, apart from the few that Muslims are prepared to allow to remain, as formally second class citizens.

I mean, ordinarily, fighting against that sort of politics would be regarded as the politics of anti-racism.

That was the conceit of the original post. Shame about your reading comprehension, you could have been Actually Oxfordian.

And once again, a complete moron thinks that my screen name has anything to do with academic excellence or the like.
It’s a play on my physical location, idiot.

As to the rest, I am simply reiterating a fact that braindead people like you haven’t grasped, which all your posts prove.

Benjamin claims that he ‘hates antisemitism’. Which is why he refers to concrete instances of anstisemitism as a ’storm in a teacup’ or WTTE, every single time.

I see you are making the simplistic BNP comparison again

Yup, weasels out again. It never fails.

I can readily concede that there are numerous things wrong with the SWP, but as individuals, I do not think they are generally comparable.

Irrelevant. When you are a party activist, you choose to be one; and you promote the policies of that party. And the SWP is a racist party.
Of course, Benjamin is running away cravenly from engaging with this point, because that’s what he always does. And in particular, he always downplays antisemitism as a ’storm in a teacup’.

NO
You really are the biggest tosser ever to have posted here. And that’s against some stiff opposition.

second that.

Mike S

Have I answered your questions to your satisfaction?

Do you think that I overestimate the SWPs importance? Or do you think that the SWP hasn’t played a significant role in inciting racial tension? Or is it that the BNP scores higher because its members put shit through letterboxes, as opposed to organsing huge rallies and nationwide tours in support of Hamas and Hezbollah.

I don’t believe a left-wing party should be in bed with Hamas or Hezbollah, but is the SWP’s dopey apologism for them racism or just silly “anti-imperialism”. To me, it’s the latter. Does it objectively add up to racism, conscious or otherwise. That’s a moot point. What isn’t in doubt is the effect it has on race relations in the UK, which is zero.

“The SWP have been promoting for the past 7 years, the lie that there is a War on Muslims.” That doesn’t make them the left-wing BNP, it makes them the mirror-image of Melanie Philips.

When I asked you about whether the BNP had any equivalents to Tony Lecomber or Charlie Sergeant the best you could do was this. “The SWP are a weedy bunch. They sometimes scuffle with their opponents, but they don’t have it in them to fight.”
That’s right: the only difference between the SWP and the BNP is that the BNP are harder. Hmmm.
But this one takes the biscuit: “They have played a major role in legitimating Atzmon’s politics within the Left.” The nlast time I spoke to anyone in the SWP, which was about a year ago, they had NO IDEA who Atzmon was. As I venture, most people outside of this site don’t. Apart from people who are into jazz, who know him for his music.
The BNP don’t just put shit through people’s letterboxes, they put petrol through letterboxes, they commit horrific assaults on opponents, they attempt to instigate race riots. What do I think of a leftist waving a “We are all Hezbollah” placard? It’s stupid and shameful, but it isn’t in the same league.
“Do you think that I overestimate the SWPs importance?” Yes, but what really worries me as someone whose principles and intellect I greatly admire (despite our manifold differences) is that you are in danger of downplaying actual real fascism, particularly after that post yesterday when you appear to speculate that the most horrific incident of far-right terrorism in post-war Europe might have been a PLO own goal.

When Mike S, a mega-jerk with only 2 tired braincells to rub together, says something nasty about me, I know that I am doing something right.

I don’t believe a left-wing party should be in bed with Hamas or Hezbollah, but is the SWP’s dopey apologism for them racism or just silly “anti-imperialism”. To me, it’s the latter.

Yup, to shits like you antisemitism is never ‘real racism’.

You know for all my reservations about Fabian, he’s obviously an intelligent guy and can formulate a debate (in a second language, natch). I’m not quite sure what NO’s function is. Nor am I especially interested.

For someone claiming not to be interested, tosser, you spend a lot of time posting drivel about me.

It’s because you’re brilliant. You’re the most compelling thinker of your generation. Anyone who isn’t aware that your monicker refers to the town not the university is a complete moron because they should know everything about you. And anyone who scratches their head at why your posts consist of repeating moron, tosser, idiot etc. without seemingly advancing an original thought of their own is an intellectual amoeba who doesn’t realise you’ve singlehandedly reinvented the Socratic dialectic for the 21st century.
I’ve seen the light and realised I’m not worthy to engage you in discussion. Goodbye, it’s been an honour.

It’s because you’re brilliant. You’re the most compelling thinker of your generation. Anyone who isn’t aware that your monicker refers to the town not the university is a complete moron because they should know everything about you. And anyone who scratches their head at why your posts consist of repeating moron, tosser, idiot etc. without seemingly advancing an original thought of their own is an intellectual amoeba who doesn’t realise you’ve singlehandedly reinvented the Socratic dialectic for the 21st century.
I’ve seen the light and realised I’m not worthy to engage you in discussion. Goodbye, it’s been an honour.

Mike S

That’s not a bad answer.

I think you’re wrong, though. This is why.

First, where you’re right. The “respectable” part of the European Far Right has closer and more immediate links with the fascist terrorism of the 1980s than the greater part of the European Far Left, and certainly the SWP, had with the Left wing terrorists groups of the same period. You can draw some links, but they don’t come close to the immediacy of fascists in Britain with Italian terrorism.

However, when it comes to links between the SWP and Hamas, and other violent Islamist groups, the connection is much much closer. I’ve talked above about the extent to which the SWP promotes both the politics, and the activists, of Hamas and Hezbollah. To that, though, we ought to add the SWP fronts: STWC and RESPECT, in which the SWP served side by side, and in the case of RESPECT, ran for election with these fascists. It also participates with them in the Cairo Conference: and participated in the resolution of that conference:

“Participants in the 2nd Cairo conference stress that the occupation of Iraq…is also part of the Zionist plan, which targets the establishment of the greater State of Israel from to [sic] Nile to Euphrates…”

What isn’t in doubt is the effect it has on race relations in the UK, which is zero.

Are you kidding? How do you think it feels to be a Jew, and to live in a country in which supposed anti-racists march under a pro-Hezbollah banner alongside Hezbollah activists? How do you think it feels to be a Muslim, and to live in a country in which not only are you regarded, presumptively, as a terrorist by a large number of people, but the people who want to befriend you, tell you the lie that you are facing an inescapable and imminent genocidal threat?

There were a number of bombings of targets by fascists in the 1980s, that is true. By contrast, the British courts have been full, these past three years, with terrorist plot after terrorist plot. Some of these terrorists had lists of “Jewish” targets, that they were planning to bomb.

You’ll say that this can’t be laid at the door of the SWP. In that case, you might also say that the BNP can’t be blamed for attacks on cultural minorities that their politics inspires.

What do you think the effect has been, on radical Muslim opinion, of the following events, all of which the SWP promoted

- RESPECT: A Jamaat/SWP electoral coalition with a Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood Euro Election candidate;
- Its council member, Abdulrahman Jafar, informing his readers in the Muslim News, that Blair had been lying to them about the fact that Israel controls the US and the UK’s governments;
- Jafar’s declaration that Sikhs had taken a vow not to shave their beards until every last Muslim was killed
- Mohammed Naseem’s “dancing cows” explanation of the putative innocence of those accused of the 7/7 bombings;
- the rise to prominence of Salma Yaqoob, who cut her political teeth campaigning for the liberty of Abu Hamza’s terrorist son;
- Providing platforms for Hamas and Hezbollah to speak on, through the STWC, on which they served alongside these ‘comrades’
- attacking as ‘Islamophobes’ anybody who pointed out the impropriety of any of this

I could go on, but you get the general idea.

And remember, they’re also telling these kids that they’re fighting for their lives, in a global War on Muslims!

The “War on Muslims” thesis is NOT the mirror image of Melanie Phillips. I think that if you have a conference that declares that Israel is trying to colonise the Nile to the Euphrates, if you have two revgional terrorist organisations whose avowed intention is to kill all the Jews, if you have a regional power trying to ‘go nuclear’ while making barely veiled threat to take out Tel Aviv, you probably should fairly talk about a global assault on Jews. By contrast, a war against violent Islamists whose main victims are Muslims, combined as it is in most Western countries, with desperate attempts to convince domestic Muslims that the State means them no harm, is the polar opposite of a “War on Muslims”.

On Atzmon. I was attacked by one of Atzmon’s groupies in print a couple of days ago. Yesterday, I received hate mail from an Atzmon fan, who accused me of treason and then chastised me for covering up the truth: that Israel is secretly running the world. I googled my correspondent, and found that he was a liberal environmentalist, for whom attacking the Zionist Occupation Government was just one of those things he was into.

How somebody like that ends up following Atzmon is anybody’s guess. Might have been the SWP. Might have been Counterpunch. Might have been through the Palestinian Solidarity movement, which has a nasty does of the Shamirs at the moment…

I think that your basic problem with seeing things my way, is that you don’t see all these factors as that serious, or in any way politically connected. I do.

is the SWP’s dopey apologism for them racism or just silly “anti-imperialism”

Come on. You have to be blind not to see that it has spilled over into racism. You can’t think that “anti imperialism’ trumps ‘racism’ unless you think that a terrorist group’s threats of genocide against an entire people, backed by religious doctrine, just doesn’t matter. Remember: the SWP accuses you of Islamophobia if you attack Hamas’ politics!

If your point is: this isn’t exactly like the BNP, I agree.

I don’t think, for example, that SWPers have been involved in nearly as many crimes of violence as some of the BNP, and their associates.

So, if the point of this discussion is to list ways in which the SWP is not like the BNP: of course, we’re going to be able to make distinctions.

Has the SWP’s conduct been merely disgraceful, as opposed to dangerous? I really think it is the latter.

Beautiful job from David T on this thread – taking apart Benji with calm, patient logic, leading Benji to run away. At least MikeS was willing to have a good go at it, but Benji runs off the moment he is asked one simple question.

The Mackie has been taught a lesson.

Beautiful job from David T on this thread – taking apart Benji with calm, patient logic, leading Benji to run away.

I did not “run away” – I had to sleep, old boy. Look, David T and me will have to just agree to disagree on this matter. I don’t think either one of is going to persuade the other.

As I said, from my experience, living in Bradford (and this has considerable relevance to the post), I don’t think the SWP is directly comparable to the BNP; indeed Iqbal herself seems rather a good indicator of that lack of direct comparability or equivalence, whatever the faults of the SWP central committee.

I suspect the SWP will continue to attract politically motivated folk at university campuses, not all of whom have malign intent, not all of whom are completely brainwashed, and some of whom will then go on to do bigger and better things.

Mike dribbles about me:
You really are the biggest tosser ever to have posted here

Mike dribbles further about me:
And anyone who scratches their head at why your posts consist of repeating moron, tosser, idiot etc. without seemingly advancing an original thought of their own

Beyond parody.

Mike, 3:03 -
exactly!

And Benjamin still pretends that he has not been completely taken apart. I’ll say this for him: you have to admire his chutzpah. Like the Black Knight in the Holy Grail.

“I suspect the SWP will continue to attract politically motivated folk at university campuses, not all of whom have malign intent, not all of whom are completely brainwashed, and some of whom will then go on to do bigger and better things.”

… in the way that the BNP attracts ‘folk’ who believe in law and order, would like to see immigration controlled to a greater extent, and are welfarist…

The only problem is the sort of political activities they’re involved in once they join.

What is Iqbal’s view – for example – of Hamas?

Benjamin – “I suspect the SWP will continue to attract politically motivated folk at university campuses, not all of whom have malign intent, not all of whom are completely brainwashed, and some of whom will then go on to do bigger and better things”

Yes. Much the same could be said of the BNP. However if this is true it is despite the SWP, not because of it. Their job, after all, is to indoctrinate their members – and anyone else they can – with malign intent. It is an inherently genocidal party. Anyone who remains with it remains dangerous for that reason. The BNP is less of a threat and probably less vile.

The BNP is clearly more of a threat than the SWP, in terms of mainstream domestic politics.

This is a fascist party, that is scoring decent double figures in some constituencies. It has had difficulties in making its electoral breakthrough: but the far Right in Europe has managed to build on such a base, to obtain real power.

By contrast, the SWP’s actions have been extremely damaging to community cohesion: and in particular, they have vilified Jews and terrorised Muslims.
However, it is their facilitation of Islamist politics that has been the worst product of their activities.

Harry’s Place have now been joined by the BNP, as well as the Mail and Express.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/10/labour%E2%80%99s-extremist-communist-slip-is-showing/

Lovely.

David, you make a very compelling case, but essentially the worst you can say is the SWP hang around with people who do X,Y and Z. The point with the BNP is they actually are people who do X,Y and Z.

“There were a number of bombings of targets by fascists in the 1980s, that is true. By contrast, the British courts have been full, these past three years, with terrorist plot after terrorist plot. Some of these terrorists had lists of “Jewish” targets, that they were planning to bomb.
You’ll say that this can’t be laid at the door of the SWP. In that case, you might also say that the BNP can’t be blamed for attacks on cultural minorities that their politics inspires.”

I find this incomprehensible. Are you seriously suggesting that say the 7/7 bombers may have been indoctrinated by the SWP? Produce a scrap of evidence for this. The contrast between this and say someone like David Copeland who was schooled in far-right politics by his membership of the BNP is very stark.
Equally, while I sympathise with you receiving hate mail from Gilad Atzmon groupies, I don’t think the green-ink scrawlings of some nutter s evidence that the SWP have somehow made him part of mainstream left discourse. One commenter to this site made a wonderful, simple point. “I am part of the mainstream left,” he wrote. “The part which believes both Nick Cohen and George Galloway are twats.”
I agree with you that the company the SWP keeps is unacceptable, and dangerous (I’d probably disagree to the extent). But I believe there are some good people in there too who are retrievable (I don’t think people in the BNP are without some sort of apostasy). Maybe thats what whoever put this QUANGO together thinks too.

in the way that the BNP attracts ‘folk’ who believe in law and order, would like to see immigration controlled to a greater extent, and are welfarist…

Not at all. The BNP operates in very different way to the SWP.

For example, the SWP has a presence at universities, where various folk join it for various reasons, not all malign, and then these folks often move on to other things.

The BNP does not have a presence at universities: the type of people that fill its ranks are very different indeed.

By contrast, the SWP’s actions have been extremely damaging to community cohesion: and in particular, they have vilified Jews and terrorised Muslims.

Ah, well, there you get into very difficult territory indeed. Trying to find out what damages ‘community cohesion’ is a very broad and difficult area; pinning damage on tiny socialist group seems a bit of a stretch.

Whether or to what extent it has “terrorised” Muslims or “vilified Jews” in the broader context of ‘community cohesion’ is very difficult to discern. The SWP says all kinds of things, some of them contradictory. It doesn’t necessarily mean they have an significant effect on community cohesion – there are so many other factors at play.

I did not “run away” – I had to sleep, old boy. Look, David T and me will have to just agree to disagree on this matter. I don’t think either one of is going to persuade the other.

Yes, that’s what you said: ‘i can’t answer your simple question, and even though I am commenting under your post, I’ll pretend it’s you that has the disagreement with me’,

You couldn’t answer a simple question and ran away, and now are only back because I highlighted how you have been taken apart, mumbling the same gibberish without actually engaging with David T’s argument.

Suck it up, Benji.

Clearly on principle it is unacceptable that a member of anti democratic organisation that has links to racism should be advising the government on community relations. Pretty obvious really.

Glad to put this matter to rest.

Mike S

It is early days: but one of the defendants in the airlines plot case, awaiting trial, Waheed Zamaan was certainly active in the SWP front organisation, the STWC.

For the past 7 years, Muslims have been told by the SWP that they are facing a holocaust, and by the Islamists that they promote, that their enemy is the Jews and Crusaders.

If you think that the BNP’s activities results in violence against cultural minorities, then you have to accept that the SWP’s activities have the strongest potential to encourage both attacks on Jews, and intercommunal tension, generally. How could it not?

Copeland’s guru – David Myers – incidentally, is now a jihadist. What he says now is indistinguishable from the message of Hamas or Hezbollah.

The BNP is presently in an electoral phase: not a terrorist phase. They are focussed on building their party. I fully accept that the BNP – and BNP spinoffs – are very likely to be involved in violence and terrorism in the future, and that the BNP may revert to the sort of close links with terrorism that we saw in the 1980s. That isn’t where they’re at now, though.

If what we’re arguing about, though, is whether the SWP is “dangerous” in the same way that the BNP is, I agree: they’re different beasts.

My problem – and the problem that I think a lot of the Left has – is that the SWP are seen as starry eyed idealists, whose heart is in the right place. People think this because, let’s face it, we had mates who were in the SWP at University. Most of them recovered. The thing is, the SWP back then was not behaving as it is now. We know – from the example of Horst Mahler – how far Left can sometimes flip into far Right. I don’t know if that will happen with the SWP – certainly, I can see it happening with some SWPers, and not with others.

Perhaps the whole point of this committee is ‘educative’: to try to turn an SWPer into a supporter of liberal democracy. If so, that’s good.

I have a horrid feeling though, that what will happen is that Iqbal will sit there, while Hazel Blears and Ed Balls nod sagely, as she explains that there is a Global War on Muslims and that only Al Qaradawi and the Muslim Brotherhood have the power to stop all her friends from turning into suicide bombs.

I have a horrid feeling though, that what will happen is that Iqbal will sit there, while Hazel Blears and Ed Balls nod sagely, as she explains that there is a Global War on Muslims and that only Al Qaradawi and the Muslim Brotherhood have the power to stop all her friends from turning into suicide bombs.

Well, you don’t know that do you? You don’t know Iqbal – but you simply think the worst of her. You don’t know Bradford or the people living there. Having actually lived in Bradford, from my experience, the views of Muslims in the city are somewhat more diverse and nuanced than your rather crude characterisations.

Benji

I can find you plenty of SWPers and Islamists running the line I’ve sketched above.

Let’s see if you can find me a SWPer who – in the last 7 years – has argued the following:

1. Religious “law” should not be enforced in the UK or in any country
2. Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah are racist organisations and should be opposed by any socialist or anti-racist
3. There is no War on Muslims. Instead, there are a series of disconnected fights, against various jihadist groups, whose main victims are Muslim.

Isn’t this the point you go to bed?

Perhaps you should politely contact Iqbal and ask for her views on things. You seem to speculate a lot, and make assumptions, about what views she may have.

Yesterday, I received hate mail from an Atzmon fan, who accused me of treason and then chastised me for covering up the truth: that Israel is secretly running the world. I googled my correspondent, and found that he was a liberal environmentalist, for whom attacking the Zionist Occupation Government was just one of those things he was into

Sounds like Monbiot.

David T

As Israel – the Jewish state – directly discriminates against its Arab citizens in housing, public services, planning, and house demolition, is this state not a racist organisation that should be opposed by any socialist or anti-racist?

On your logic, Harry’s Place = BNP.

As I don’t share your logic, I wouldn’t reach that conclusion. However, this websites continual diet of ‘bad news’ stories about Muslims is not dissimilar to the BNP’s coverage. And the hounding of this spirited and engaged teenager by you, a cynical big-shot corporate lawyer (together with the Daily Mail and the BNP), is stomach turning. You should be ashamed.

Perhaps you should politely contact Iqbal and ask for her views on things. You seem to speculate a lot, and make assumptions, about what views she may have

Keep digging, Benjamin: you are doing a wonderful job of making yourself look sillier by the minute.
Which part of ’she is an SWP activist’ are you struggling with?

Zin displays his ignorance yet again.

“this spirited and engaged teenager”

So we shouldn’t take her seriously as a government advisor then? Or should we? I wish you’d make up your mind.

Trying to find out what damages ‘community cohesion’ is a very broad and difficult area

Sounds terribly wise, but actually all it means is that you are running away from answering a very simple question: why don’t you give a shit about increasing antisemitic attacks in the UK?

Ah, well, we know the answer: antisemitism is a storm in a teacup.

Sure, Nearly Humanoid. Post the relevant figures for Jews and Arabs in Jerusalem, and prove my ignorance.

David, you make a very compelling case, but essentially the worst you can say is the SWP hang around with people who do X,Y and Z.

Sure, hanging around with Nazis – actually, no, they don’t ‘hang around’ with them, they promote them quite actively – is OK for a government adviser to be doing. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Oh do please shut up, Brett. You are such a pompous git.

I don’t argue with antisemitic scum like you. ‘Nearly Humanoid’ is straight out of the Stuermer, your natural habitat.
Just fuck off.

Brett, being vilified by scum like Zin is the best accolade.

Anti-semitic?? Keep taking the meds, Mr Loony.

“You seem to speculate a lot, and make assumptions, about what views she may have.”

Why is it wrong to make assumptions about the political views of people who belong to racist, totalitarian parties, if that party is of the left?

Benjamin, you did run away. David asked you quite straightforward questions yesterday at 4:35pm. Your response today:

“I just don’t agree with your direct, simple comparison of the SWP with the BNP. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.”

Not running away would involve explaining why, exactly, his analogy doesn’t hold. “Just not agreeing” is a cop-out. It’s running away.

David T: “Can I add, Benji, that the reason that you don’t take the SWP’s influence seriously is because you don’t take racism seriously, if it is directed at Jews.”

But really, David, it goes further than not taking it seriously, doesn’t it? Benjamin demonstrates a Pavlovian response to the word ‘antisemitism’. If you talk about antisemitism, Benji is pathologically programmed to sneer. If you mention denial of the specifically Jewish Holocaust, Benjamin reflexively and irrelevantly chastises you for not talking about non-Jewish victims.

Benjamin has an obsessive need to attack or sneer at anyone who opposes antisemitism, which goes well beyond not taking it seriously.

Sorry, that above comment was from me.

And Benjamin, I notice that in the last couple of days you’ve started to play up your close-up experience of opposing the BNP in your days back in Blighty. I presume this is in response to my earlier challenge to you to explain how your opposition to the BNP amounts to anything other than a rhetorical device, wheeled out whenever someone here criticises the SWP’s racism.

You spend a lot of energy condemning Harry’s Place for attacking the SWP, on the basis of your favourable comparison of it to the BNP. I don’t accept your analysis; but supposing I did, can you explain what you currently do to oppose the BNP? My guess is that you do fuck all. Your main contribution to the fight against racism is to sneer every time you hear the word ‘antisemitism’.

Why is it wrong to make assumptions about the political views of people who belong to racist, totalitarian parties, if that party is of the left?

I am just saying what it is: speculation. I lived for several years in Bradford. I just suggest, from my experience, that the views of Muslims are rather more diverse and nuanced than those made out by David T. As I say, I am informed by my experiences of the SWP, the BNP, and the Muslims community in Bradford.

If you mention denial of the specifically Jewish Holocaust, Benjamin reflexively and irrelevantly chastises you for not talking about non-Jewish victims.

That’s genuinely sad. I did not chastise anyone. I just mentioned that other victims exist. I am surprised you think such a mention is ‘chastisement’.

“Perhaps the whole point of this committee is ‘educative’: to try to turn an SWPer into a supporter of liberal democracy. If so, that’s good. ”

No, it’s not good that the government would waste its time and money that way, or would use a fact-finding committee as a front for educating the loony left into normality.

The way to treat SWP members if you’re a government is not to take advice from them but from someone else, if it’s advice the government is wanting.

Not to be forgotten in this discussion is the SWP’s sustained support for Babar Ahmad.

The US case against him has been repeatedly belittled in Socialist Worker – it amounts to “trumped up” and “bogus” charges for supporting “terrorists” (the paper’s quotation marks).

Mr Ahmad did indeed support terrorists. No need for scare quotes. Anyone can see part of his work in 2000 and 2001 in the internet archive. It openly backs jihad, praises the Taleban (“Allah’s Blessing on Afghanistan”), and calls Osama bin Laden “the only Muslim brave enough to speak out against American Zionist oppression”.

There’s much more on Mr Ahmad in the US affidavit, of course.

Choosing him as a man to campaign for is very, well, revealing.

“[T]he views of Muslims are rather more diverse and nuanced than those made out by David T.”

David T drew attention to her membership of the SWP, not her religion. I don’t think he expressed any concern about any of the other members of this quango.

“I did not chastise anyone. I just mentioned that other victims exist.”

I don’t think anyone was in any doubt that there were millions non-Jewish Holocaust victims. Perhaps ‘chastise’ was too strong a word, but it was an irrelevant, knee-jerk criticism, that forms part of pattern of sneering at the subject of antisemitism.

If you were commenting on a post that mentioned Gypsy victims of the Holocaust, would you feel the need to remind us that there were also gay victims? No, you wouldn’t. I don’t think you would have made your remark had you thought about it; but that’s entirely the point. Your need to sneer at ‘antisemitism’ is completely automatic.

apparently Atzmon criticised by SWP member after SWP member – prominent members, too, like John Rose.
The link below is from Lenins tomb the official blog od the SWP (As David T) likes to claim…

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2004/07/anti-fascist-and-anti-anti-semitic.html

The funny thing is that this young girl has probably done more for community cohesion than David T ever has…or will

So David T…what have you done for Community Cohesion??????

That’s genuinely sad

Well, yes, your consistent sneering at any mention of antisemitism is indeed sad, in the sense of pathetic.

Is John Rose that foaming-mouth lunatic professor?

The funny thing is that this young girl has probably done more for community cohesion than David T ever has…or will

The usual stupid hypothetical statement about thinks you have no knowledge of, or could possibly have any knowledge of.

sorry, things.

meanwhile the military wing of British Capital plc invites the BNP to dinner
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1785228.ece

Thanks Saeed

So, as you’ve demonstrated, the SWP knew perfectly well that Atzmon was an anti-semite, from the first meeting: but yet continued to host and promote him.

What have I done for community cohesion. Well, for a start, I’ve always supported moderates, liberals and secularists, and opposed fascists.

Care to join me?

On campus at Imperial, Babar Ahmad has been something of an Islamist star, if only in wholly unjust imperialist absentia:

The strength of feeling amongst Imperial students, in support of Babar’s cause, that was shown last week on Thursday 2 December, when 160+ people attended a meeting to launch the Imperial College ‘Free Babar Ahmad’ campaign, that had been publicised for less than a week beforehand. Amongst others, Babar’s father and campaigning journalist Yvonne Ridley spoke at this meeting…

Ah, Babar’s cause.

What was it again – oh, yes, the Taleban are “Allah’s Blessing on Afghanistan”. With Yvonne Ridley as a champion.

What a great progressive cause, eh! To the barricades, comrades!

See what I mean?

Is John Rose that foaming-mouth lunatic professor?

A glaring pot-kettle moment as this site’s most barking embarrassment of a commenter accuses someone else of foaming at the mouth.

Anyway my friend Cliff used to work with Babar Ahmad. While he was on remand – Babar, not Cliff – one Christmas, he – Cliff, not Babar – was wondering whether to send him a card, or whether he might find it offensive, being quite devout and everything, to put it mildly. My advice was to send him one, because it was a gesture he’d surely appreciate, and if he didn’t then anyone who actually takes offence at being sent a Christmas card because their work colleagues haven’t forgotten them, deserves to be offended.

I haven’t really followed what’s happened re. Babar since, but Cliff owns a marvellous pub in Brighton called the Caroline of Brunswick which I heartily recommend.

See, this is what I miss about you not doing posts, Wardy.

@ DAvid T…please excuse the flippant tone of my remarks…i should have been more thoughtful….

i am active in community groups..one of which a somali womens group which does work against forced marriages/domestic abuse/womens educational progammes that type of thing ….funnily enough we have had a lot of greens/far left types/swp people (yes i even lynsey german turned up to one event along side some local trade union leaders) turn up…and support us…regularly

also i personally know michael lavalette a respect councilor …who has worked hard to help asylum seekers who are in the process of being deported back to totalitarian regimes like Ethiopia/Sudan/iran stay in Britain…who is involved in local community progs in preston helping local Muslims and white kids get together…

for you to turn around and the SWP say its a morally equivalent to the BNP is nuts…fair enough some of their actions are a tad odious like inviting that nutter atzmon who was given a rough time by a lot of SWP members (kinda blows your argument out of the water, eh)

you may disagree with them (like myself) but to try to put them on a par with the BNP is nuts

…also the idea of the government talking to young Muslims who are active in their communities, especially girls, is a great idea,…

David T drew attention to her membership of the SWP, not her religion. I don’t think he expressed any concern about any of the other members of this quango.

David T is not worried about any socialist elements of SWP. He is worried about Islamism.

So he proceeded to put words in Iqbal’s mouth:

I have a horrid feeling though, that what will happen is that Iqbal will sit there, while Hazel Blears and Ed Balls nod sagely, as she explains that there is a Global War on Muslims and that only Al Qaradawi and the Muslim Brotherhood have the power to stop all her friends from turning into suicide bombs.

Has David T lived in Bradford? Does he know any Bradford Muslims? Has he canvassed their views? Has he asked Iqbal of her views? Of course not. Instead, he sits in his well appointed office 200 miles away and puts words in the mouth of a young British Muslim.

I ranaway rather than answer your questions so now I have come back to just repeat some drivel so it looks like I had the last word and it was you that couldn’t answer my irrelevent questions.

I am Benjamin Mackie.

You should appreciate, Fake Benjy, that I operate 8 hours ahead and even folk in Hong Kong sleep occasionally.

But Benjamin, the views that David T speculated she might put forward constitute the SWP line. Of course British Muslims’ views are far more diverse, and it is a disgusting smear for you to say that David T thinks otherwise, when he has consistently argued the opposite.

Now, when are you going to answer his questions from before you ran away last time? And when are you going to account for your false correction on the subject of Holocaust denial, with an explanation other than the obvious fact that you reflexively sneer at the subject of ‘antisemitism’?

Before you start throwing more false allegations around or changing the subject, you might like to answer those questions.

David T would do well not to assume that this British Muslim is simply interested in parotting the SWP line. I guess its easy to think all your “enemies” as robots, convenient straw men or caricatures; instead, go to Bradford, talk to folk and see how the land really lies.

That comment by Wardytron was a classic example of gratuitous offensiveness, so the pot-kettle situation is exactly what you are guilty of yourself, pathetic loser.

some of their actions are a tad odious

Yeah, like enthusiastically supporting Nazi genocidal scum like Hezbollah … nothing of interest here, move along.

Has David T lived in Bradford? Does he know any Bradford Muslims? Has he canvassed their views? Has he asked Iqbal of her views? Of course not. Instead, he sits in his well appointed office 200 miles away and puts words in the mouth of a young British Muslim

ALL of this is irrelevant nonsense, spouted from a well-appointed office in Hong Kong.
She is an activist in an antisemitic group. That’s what’s relevant.

Weird and nasty.

To those of you showing support. Thank you.
To those of you being honest. Thank you.
I am not actually an SWP member, I work with some organisations run by them and so my words were taken in the wrong way.
I don’t believe in being too slanted in one direction. It goes against both my religious and personal beliefs.
Extremism, whatever it’s route cause is wrong and pointless.
Some of you really need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
I do what I do for reasons I hold valid and important. I am no persons’ or organisations puppet. I believe in the potential of the YMAG. I think we are trying to do something significant and important for the beautifully diverse country we are proud to be part of.
As far as my involvement with the SWP goes…Yes there are some individuals whose views I detest. But others are looking for the voice and facilitation the SWP appears to provide. Perhaps they too need to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.
I am not anti zion, racist or fascist.
As far as I’m concerned, anyone who wants what is best for our society and who disagrees with fascism and discrimination on any level, is working on the same side as me
It is important to drop these petty judgements and unite for a greater cause

Don’t believe everything you read and hear
Speak directly to those you judge before you do so
I am open to criticism. I always try to be a better person. Insults based on slander are different.

I hope some of my words have got through to some of you

Peace

Benjamin: I was not really aware of the BNP untill the media/government, went after the ballerina with the English National for being a member. This episode made me angry (where were our great British freedoms/Democracy/Rights to opinion and expression, etc) and I decided to use my mind and research the ‘despicable’ ‘racist’ ‘fascist’ BNP (’contempt prior to investigation’ being anathema). I was shocked/surprised/gobsmacked by what I learnt. The Socialist Workers party, the Communist Party of Britain, the Labour Party (nu & old), Trade Unions; all have the same people running them and running around in them. They introduced political correctness to stifle real debate: political correctness = cultural marxism = can’t get away with economic marxism to change western culture, cultural marxism will do it anyway. I now view the BNP (scarily) as the only foil/shield against the frightening changes happening in my country. I know who the facists are and they sit in Downing Street. Investigate, research and remember! “Contempt prior to investigation” is just plain ignorance!
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.htm

…but these are religious problems per se, although they may reflect Muslims’ self imposed isolation and adherence to outmoded religious ideas. Field

This reminds me of Gilad Atzmon’s thesis that the behavior of the Jews was one reason for the Holocaust.