Harry’s Place

We should just be grateful that we didn’t try and sell them a timeshare or knock-off Viagra…

Informing the universe of our presence while we are unable to defend ourselves is utter madness. Technologically we would be in the stone age compared to anyone who might be able to contact us and, heaven forbid, land here. Why place ourselves at their mercy?!

Shocking stuff Brett!

Here are some more people from a different planet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E&eurl=http://www.crooksandliars.com/

It is a PR stunt, of course, nothing to do with serious scientific research. None of the planets have been directly observed and have been deduced from the star’s wobble. The Gliese 581 system is unlikely to support life as the planets Gliese 581c and Gliese 581d lie either side of the habitable zone where liquid water can exist. The best you could hope from these planets is some basic form of life like extremophile bacteria. Instead of pouring money into sending the kind of mundane crap that Bebo users obsess about, they could have funded some research into exoplanets. But that would obviously be too highbrow.

“Informing the universe of our presence while we are unable to defend ourselves is utter madness.”

We’ve been informing the universe of our existence for decades through television broadcasts. The first transmissions an alien race would receive are likely to be the 1936 Berlin Olympics, so the first “celebrity” they would come face-to-face with would be Hitler. This transmission would have passed Gliese 581 over 50 years ago.

Dan, it really isn’t the end of the world, you know. Seems pretty harmless, although I am sure some froth mouthed person will inform me its got something to with George Galloway and Islamists.

I presume this is a spoof post by Brett, though.

If not, I guess he must be at least 65 years old, lives in Hampshire, and regularly splutters into his cornflakes about the shocking antics of those damned hipsters on “social networking” sites.

Benji: Are you for real?

Well, the point is that it doesn’t really matter. The stuff may be crap, but veritable truckloads of crap have already left the planet.

Deborah Meaden? Couldn’t they have just jettisoned the original?

Its life Jim, but not as we know it.

so the first “celebrity” they would come face-to-face with would be Hitler.

Jack Buchanan beats Hitler by eight years. As he used to sing: ‘The Sky’s The Limit’…

‘The first transmissions an alien race would receive are likely to be the 1936 Berlin Olympics’

- Dan, you’ve obviously seen ‘Contact’ with Jodie Foster.

We’ve been informing the universe of our existence for decades through television broadcasts. The first transmissions an alien race would receive are likely to be the 1936 Berlin Olympics, so the first “celebrity” they would come face-to-face with would be Hitler. This transmission would have passed Gliese 581 over 50 years ago.

Except we haven’t really. Television Broadcasts, like all electromagnetic radiation, travels at a *maximum* speed of c. So even the signals of the Berlin Olympics would have only reached a maximum distance of 72 light years away. The odds of there being an interstellar civilisation capable of picking up these broadcasts within 72 years are extremely low.

Primarily because how many stable low-mass main-sequence stars (that have long enough hydrogen-burning lifetimes to allow life to evolve on orbiting planets) are there within 72 years?

Very few.

If we take the example of the area around Sol to within 5 parsecs (16 light years), there are 50-odd stellar systems, of whos members only 7 stars are low-mass main sequence stars - the rest are either red or white dwarves and therefore unsuitable for life.

Additionally, since Flux is defined by Luminosity/(4*Pi*Distance^2), television broadcasts would be at an almost impercetible level at any distance at all (notice the squared term in the denominator). Yes, it could be detected, but *only* if they knew what they’re looking for. Alien Civilisations would be more likely to be looking out for signals at the Hydrogen 1420 Mhz Line (caused by transitions in neutral hydrogen), which is not affected by interference from galactic dust, as we indeed are currently doing via SETI.

We really don’t have to worry about aliens out there coming to exterminate us on the basis of Hitler’s performance at the 1936 Olympics.

“If we take the example of the area around Sol to within 5 parsecs (16 light years), there are 50-odd stellar systems, of whos members only 7 stars are low-mass main sequence stars - the rest are either red or white dwarves and therefore unsuitable for life.”

Why should red dwarves be considered unsuitable for life? They are cool, but that simply moves the habitable zone closer to the star. They are also very stable and last a longer length of time than our star.

Yes, only a civilisation that is actually looking this way will see television and radio transmissions. I don’t think there are any other civilisations within any distance that could make a rapid and aggressive response. And why would they bother? If an alien did see the 1936 Berlin Olympics, the whole show would probably look rather meaningless and puzzling.

I recently read this cringingly trite commentary about a new production of the play “The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui” on the Abbey’s web site:

Times are bad. Prices are rising. House prices are falling. There’s a recession looming. A new leader is needed.
[...]
Brecht’s both alarming and hilarious farce about the rise of a fascist dictator has all too many modern parallels

I was tempted to mail them and say “What, you think Obama is a fascist?”.

I hate “relevant” theatre.

P.

What a bunch of infantiles and idiots.

None of the planets have been directly observed and have been deduced from the star’s wobble

Do you mean these planets, or non-solar planets generally? I think a few gas giants have been observed directly in very recent years.

Sue -
Benjamin is ‘Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells’.

We really don’t have to worry about aliens out there coming to exterminate us on the basis of Hitler’s performance at the 1936 Olympics.

It is April 5th, 2063*, and Morgoth is Captain Kirk

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek

Do you mean these planets, or non-solar planets generally? I think a few gas giants have been observed directly in very recent years.

That is correct. A few months back, I was chatting with one of the guys behind SuperWASP - they’re starting to find extrasolar planets *directly* now.

I would suggest the interest of this topic is that we do not know at all so its open to great speculation.

I suppose the options are:

• We are alone in the universe
• We are not alone but are as good as it gets in terms of civilisation and technology
• There are more advanced civilisations but the physics precludes any practical interstellar travel or communication (imagine if we could establish interstellar contact but had to wait 40 years for a reply each time!)
• There are more advanced civilisations which are capable of interstellar travel or communication but they haven’t found us yet
• There are more advanced civilisations which are capable of interstellar travel or communication they have found us but for some reason have not bothered to make overt contact
• There are more advanced civilisations which are capable of interstellar travel or communication they have found us and will contact us tomorrow once they’ve finished reading their emails.
• There are more advanced civilisations which are capable of interstellar travel or communication they have found us and are secretly controlling events and are secretly quite pleased at having directed the Icelandic banking collapse and created the Barack Obama and Sarah Palin clones

In terms of advertising our presence here through TV and radio signals I often think of the difficulty I had trying to tune into Tyne Tees when Yorkshire TV went on strike in 1978!

Why should red dwarves be considered unsuitable for life? They are cool, but that simply moves the habitable zone closer to the star. They are also very stable and last a longer length of time than our star.

Dan, Red Dwarves are of such low luminosity that their habitable zones are so close to the star that any planets would be a) tidally locked, b) extremely vulnerable to solar flares adversely affecting their biosphere c) bathed in IR, not visible light (thus necessitating a replacement for photosynthesis)

There are some chaps who do indeed claim that Red Dwarf systems could support life, but they’re in the minority (such as these chaps here: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=red-star-rising)

“Do you mean these planets, or non-solar planets generally? I think a few gas giants have been observed directly in very recent years.”

I meant the planets that are believed to be orbiting Gliese 581.

Planets have been directly observed through gravitational lensing, but I think SuperWASP detects planets through the dip in a star’s light during transit. Nothing approaching Earth’s mass has been detected so far.

“Red Dwarves are of such low luminosity that their habitable zones are so close to the star that any planets would be a) tidally locked, b) extremely vulnerable to solar flares adversely affecting their biosphere c) bathed in IR, not visible light (thus necessitating a replacement for photosynthesis)”

I can’t see why a tidally locked planet cannot host life. Solar flares are far less violent on a red dwarf than our own star and anyway an Earth-like planet would have a magnetosphere. Red dwarves don’t emit just IR, they also emit UV just at very low levels. Perhaps you are thinking of brown dwarves. If life can exist at the bottom of an ocean on Earth, where there is little or no sunlight, then it can exist on a planet around a red dwarf. Given the fact that red dwarves are believed to have lifespans many times the lifetime of our star, it is not inconceivable that life could develop slowly over a period of billions of years. It wasn’t so long ago that astronomers dismissed the idea that red dwarves could host a planetary system. Astronomers tend to be a conservative bunch, particularly when it comes to alien civilisations - they don’t want to be seen as crackpots. But Carl Sagan was no crackpot.

Jed: Read up on the Fermi Paradox.

Planets have been directly observed through gravitational lensing,

Indeed. They’ve also been directly observed. Unusually, the wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planet) is actually excellent on this topic.

We’re getting down to exoplants with masses only 3 to 5 times that of Earth - quite stunning progress when you think that exoplanet hunting is only a decade or so old as a serious field.

Morgoth: I thought that the smallest exoplanet detected so far was about the mass of Neptune. It’s fascinating stuff and certainly takes one’s mind off the depressing craziness of life on our planet.

I can’t see why a tidally locked planet cannot host life.

It couldn’t support an atmosphere - one side would be perpetually frozen. Yes, some people do claim that atmospheres could exist and mixing would be enough to distribute heat to the dark side.

Solar flares are far less violent on a red dwarf than our own star

True, but remember the likely planets are likely to be much closer in to the star than in the sol System. Flux is related to the square of the distance. Those red dwarfs that are flare stares are likely to have sterilised any orbiting planets.

and anyway an Earth-like planet would have a magnetosphere.

*Could* have. We don’t know for sure.

Red dwarves don’t emit just IR, they also emit UV just at very low levels.

Indeed they do.

Perhaps you are thinking of brown dwarves.

I’m not. Brown dwarves (which have had some deuterium burning occuring in their history but no hydrogen burning obviously since they don’t have enough mass to obtain the conditions necessary to initiate it in their cores) are a completely different kettle of fish.

If life can exist at the bottom of an ocean on Earth, where there is little or no sunlight, then it can exist on a planet around a red dwarf.

Possibly. But lifeforms that are likely to exist at a bottom of an ocean have a completely different (and probably much higher) set of hurdles to overcome to get to the point of interstellar travel than mobile oxygen-breathing surface lifeforms.

Given the fact that red dwarves are believed to have lifespans many times the lifetime of our star, it is not inconceivable that life could develop slowly over a period of billions of years.

Possibly, indeed. I won’t argue that it isn’t a possibility. But I would argue that it is probable that life is much more likely to be found around G- and K- type stars.

It wasn’t so long ago that astronomers dismissed the idea that red dwarves could host a planetary system. Astronomers tend to be a conservative bunch, particularly when it comes to alien civilisations - they don’t want to be seen as crackpots. But Carl Sagan was no crackpot.

Indeed. But astronomers aren’t conservative when the evidence demands so - look at what happened in the late 90s with the startling discovery by the SCP and the High-Z SN teams that the Expansion of the Universe was accelerating.

Dan, fully agreed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24031315/ claims an exosolar planet of 5 Earth masses. Ironically, around a Red Dwarf.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7432114.stm has a 3 Earth mass planet orbiting a Brown Dwarf.

Dan,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7432114.stm

3.3 Earth Masses, albeit around a Brown Dwarf.

Whoops, posts disappearing into the spam filter.

Anyway, I believe the current record is MOA-2007-BLG-192Lb with a mass of 3.3 Earth Masses, orbiting a Brown Dwarf.

We really don’t have to worry about aliens out there coming to exterminate us on the basis of Hitler’s performance at the 1936 Olympics.

Let’s hope they don’t object to musical comedy, then. Jack Buchanan, eighty light years away already. Scary.

We’ve been informing the universe of our existence for decades through television broadcasts. The first transmissions an alien race would receive are likely to be the 1936 Berlin Olympics, so the first “celebrity” they would come face-to-face with would be Hitler

What about 20s radio broadcasts? They too are travelling through space.

The first thing aliens will hear is The Charleston, the first thing they’ll see is Hitler.

Could get confusing.

It couldn’t support an atmosphere - one side would be perpetually frozen.

Life could conceivably evolve in the penumbral region, possibly fairly deep down an accumulation of water just a few degrees above 273 K. That would also answer the objection re solar flares and UV.

I think that most of these objections are too focused on life as it’s known on earth. It could have taken a different turning on other planets, and saying that it must be fundamentally similar to terrestrial life (not that the life postulated in my previous paragraph has has to be fundamentally different) seems to me far too restrictive. Or in other words, we can’t rule out such things categorically on the basis of what we know now.

Or in other words, we can’t rule out such things categorically on the basis of what we know now.

There are known unknowns?

It is April 5th, 2063*, and Morgoth is Captain Kirk

You failed future history class, didn’t you?

Captain Kirk lived in the 23rd century and not the 21st

And warp-drive is the purvey of curved dicks.

This transmission would have passed Gliese 581 over 50 years ago.

I’ve been to Gliese 581!

Twice!

Nearly: Heat would be distributed in the event of a planet having a thick atmosphere like Earth’s. A thick atmosphere would also provide protection from any solar activity. As for the ability of life to thrive in different environments, it all depends on whether you believe that life on Earth was more down to chance (the presence of a large satellite, the protection given by Jupiter’s gravity in preventing more asteroid bombardments, the position of the Sun in a quiet backwater of the galaxy, etc). If life requires all the conditions we have on Earth, in our solar system and our galactic neighbourhood, then it would seem that life may be very rare. If it only takes water, a little heat and light and some organic molecules to create life, then it should be abundant.

“I’ve been to Gliese 581!
Twice!”

Judging by your comments elsewhere, I think you live somewhere in the Andromeda Galaxy.

Captain Kirk lived in the 23rd century and not the 21st

Get out of it - I saw an episode where he lived in the sixties with hippies…

Anyway, that does show the danger of those “It’s 1938 and I am Churchill” sort of comments as things may turn out entirely different (even if it all seems “illogical” from your own viewpoint)

Or in other words, we can’t rule out such things categorically on the basis of what we know now.

There are known unknowns?

OK, not very clearly phrase ;-)
We can’t rely on what we know now to say: We know that life on other planets, which we haven’t seen, can’t exist.

Dan -
the point is that we simply don’t know. To say that one ‘believes’ that life on earth is down to that particular galaxy (sorry …) of ‘just right’ parameters, is pretty meaningless. (BTW, I don’t think I would use the word ‘chance’ here, exactly). You can believe one thing, Joe Blogg believes the opposite; but scientifically this doesn’t take us very far.

… or maybe I meant ‘that particular constellation of ‘just right’ parameters’ ;-)

Anyone know what proportion of those early radio signals got broadcast out? Anyways, as time goes on that signal gets spread thinner and thinner over the surface area of (ideally) an expanding sphere and thus gets weaker relating to the cube of the distance travelled. The signals can’t get too far before they’re swamped by background noise.

Which is why it is VITAL that we invent FTL soon, so that we can get in a ship and get out there and ahead of our transmissions. We need to get 55 light years away NOW, and every year increases it by one, if we want to record all the missing episodes of Doctor Who.

Should have sent photos of Jordan, the ET’s would surely be wary of messing with silicone based lifeforms.
Does make you wonder about the big questions tho’ like do alien civilisations have celebs and if so do theirs get fake looking tentacle implants?

The square, KC, not the cube ;-)

Can I get away with claiming I was referring to the volume of the signal? Ahem.

Not bad, KC! ;-)

Mind you, perhaps the aliens can move through 5-space? Ah well, never mind …

If you have a copy of Marco Polo I can think of a few people who would mind very much…

Beg pardon?

Okay, that’s nearly 24 hours, and I’ve got to go to sleep. Marco Polo is the oldest totally missing story from Doctor Who. Now stop [hot milf fucking] around, build me an FTL and go out there and record it.

If I build you one, you’ll have to go out there and record it yourself, surely.

Anyway, never been a Doctor Who fan.

Attention Galaxy:

Tasty idiots! Get yer technologically primitive yet succulent and tasty idiots HERE!