Harry’s Place

Hardly a surprise. Greeks of all political persuasions have long been anti-Israeli and were strong supporters of the PLO. While it’s certainly possible to be those things without being antisemitic, Greece has a long tradition of Christian anti-semitism that has never really gone away. But don’t worry, Greece is the cradle of democracy.

This of course would be the same Rest Of The World that the US should be more like, according to all and sundry. Lets face facts here - Europe doesn’t care about Israel or Judiasm - in fact, they’d be happily filling up more Gas Chambers tomorrow if they could get away with it, happy cheered on by the Guardian and Independent.

Maybe Mel Philips has a point after all, don’t ya think?

hmmm

Well, it’s an article of faith on the Left that American foreign policy was “hijacked” by Joo Neocons. Who can blame Greek Righties for playing along?

The anticipated victory of Obama in US elections signals the end of the Jewish domination

They wish…

Smash the Hellenist State!

Gene,

Is that Demis Roussos with his hands up Obama and McCain’s asses? It sure looks like him…

I’ve long wondered if everything that the Greeks claim to hate is simply because Turks don’t and vice versa.

In fact i remember when I studied and worked in in Greece in the early 80;s at first accepting their (admittedly shockingly tragic) version of Ottoman history completely until i realized that the same foaming hatred was directed against all things Israeli, and there was not the slightest attempt to distinguish Jews and Zionists.

it equally might appear odd that Greece is so pro-Arab when they claim to have suffered so miserably under the yoke of Muslim oppression for so long, but all this falls into place when you read of the endless shifting alliances between faiths and nationalities opposing Ottoman rule.

Its a politics of my enemy’s friend is my enemy and so their friends are my enemy etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

The mosaic of alliances contesting Ottoman might within and outside its expanding and contracting boundary of rule and influence also, for instance, produces alliances such as that between Iran and Armenia against their co-religionist (and minority population) Azerbaijan.

Lets face facts here - Europe doesn’t care about Israel or Judiasm - in fact, they’d be happily filling up more Gas Chambers tomorrow if they could get away with it, happy cheered on by the Guardian and Independent.

Damn. Craig Brown is at it again.

I really do hope the Messiah does force the Israelis to give up the West Bank and east Jerusalem. I know HP people deny this but the wrongful occupation of those areas fuels anti-Semitism around the world. im not saying it morally justifies anti-Semitism, but it causes it. The American president is the one man who can force the Israelis into agreeing into a reasonable partition.

Of course when the palestinians fuck up their state the Israelis will still get the blame, but at least they can say they tried.

Jewish domination? How much does that cost then?

The trouble is, pretty much everything seems to fuel anti-semitism.

Who is Craig Brown?

Apart from the former manager of Scotland?

OT - but with the rolling news networks on the TV while I procrastinate about work…

Go Obama!

I was always a Hilary fan and was pretty dismayed when Obama was gifted the easy ride by the US media that helped win him the Primary. Mainly because I thought it gave the Republicans, under McCain, a shot at winning the election.

In the end though, Obama’s campaign has been excellent throughout and Obama an exceptional candidate - both campaign and candidate showing remarckable political discipline over the long haul.

This kind of political maturity and discipline augurs very well for an Obama administration. Putting aside all the shit and piss about this being a “transcendental” moment for the US as if the entire nation has something to apologise for because of the last eight years… The most important thing is that Obama and his team seem to have the maturity to match their message.

Exciting times.

What krik #1 said.
I think it is an antisemitic projection against the Jews. The neo-hellenists of the Greek Entity are full of guilt because of their land conquests and ethnic cleansing of Turks and Slavs, so they divert the gaze towards Israel.

British satirist. Probably the same person as the football manager.

The Neocon Jew warmonger David Frum reports:

http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTQ1MDdjNzRkZjI5YzM4NDM1N2EwODI5MmMzZjI4OTg=

Exciting times.

Except for the sad demise of Jewish Domination of course. A domination this gentile, at keast, quite enjoyed…

I’m much more excited than I was about Clinton.

I’m much more excited than I was about Clinton.

Why?

“I’m much more excited than I was about Clinton.”

Me too. No longer were I be burdened with a mortgage and car payments.

Is that saying much, David T? If so, why?

A conference of various secessionist groups is to be held in Manchester, New Hampshire next week. But the organisers admit that they had assumed that Clinton (there’s really only one) would have been the President-elect by then, which was the whole point.

Which brings me to the main point of this post. When Obama wins, how much longer, purely objectively, can AIPAC be expected to last? It will stand exposed as being of no real consequence whatever, as if the failure of Clinton to win the Democratic nomination had not so exposed it already.

That, at least, would account for the, frankly, hilarious hysteria of Melanie Phillips and Janet Daley. And I for one cannot think of anything else that could.

I’m much more excited than I was about Clinton.

Me too. But Clinton was never about “excitement”. It was about ensuring a Democrat administration that had experience and cool heads.

Obama’s team has shown they can keep cool under pressure.

It’s a fresh start.

Which brings me to the main point of this post. When Obama wins, how much longer, purely objectively, can AIPAC be expected to last? It will stand exposed as being of no real consequence whatever, as if the failure of Clinton to win the Democratic nomination had not so exposed it already.

Wow.

The leader of the British People’s Party speaks.

The leader of the British People’s Party speaks.

Surely David Linday is one of the Saviours Of Britain?

Europe doesn’t care about Israel or Judiasm - in fact, they’d be happily filling up more Gas Chambers tomorrow if they could get away with it, happy cheered on by the Guardian and Independent.

MORGOTH (Or Craig) - you should take that back. Shame on you.

I really don’t get why the Greeks give a flying turd about Jews. It would be more logical for them to hate Muslims; and I read that there are almost no mosques allowed in Greece (not sure if that’s true). If so, then there is animus toward Muslims there. That I can understand considering the Ottoman rule. But Jews?

Jews killed Jesus

Well, if the political (or broader social) discourse in the Hellenic Republic was anything like that in Europe in general, or even in Eastern Europe in general, or even in Balkans Europe in general I would despair about the mentality of Europe as a whole.

It depresses the hell out of me to say that even Romania is arguably more of a mature democracy than is Greece, which essentially got let in to the EU far too early for purely (cold war) geopolitical reasons - and has done very little to reform since, over the subsequent 27 years.

And IF this paper is a ND-supporting one, bloody hell, that’s even worse. One expects this sort of drivel from the leftists, I suppose (at least those from whom the Cold War has never ended and America is the eternal evil enemy)

(I seem to recall a survey showing that the 2003 Iraq invasion had an ever higher level of opposition - high 90s, percentagewise in Greece than was the case than among Palestinians living under occupation - merely low 90s).

Still, it’s odd that in such a context, the Greek military take part in large-scale (and deliberately threatening) maneouvres with the Israeli military

And Ed and (especially) David Lindsay are wide of the mark, but I can’t be bothered to explain why.

(I am not in the least excited, and vaguely disconcerted, at the thought of a Messianic presidency. - And, no, I didn’t rate Clinton (Mr) either, and Clinton (Mrs) even less. My only hope is that those cinemas in certain parts of the UK which are still prohibited from showing the “Life of Brian” will similarly not broadcast any ensuing victory rallies)

I’m on your side. When Obama wins, it will prove that the almighty Israel Lobby does not exist.

Quite what will then be the point of APIAC is, of course, another question. It has to give the impression that there is such a Lobby, even while protesting that there isn’t - that is the basis of its power. Or it was. Clearly, it doesn’t have any power anymore.

The GOP is going to nominate Palin in 2012. But after that, it will want a proper crack at the White House. And by 2016, Obama will have changed the rules completely. The Republican, no less than the Democratic, nominee will have to be someone to whom Israel is just another foreign country. As, to most Americans, it always was, really.

Lindsay

You’re a fringe nutter. You’re role here is essentially that of jester.

Jews killed Jesus

But only for a few days.

Incidentally, you never did tell me your views on spontanious human combustion.

a politics of my enemy’s friend is my enemy

Yes, this is, or has been, a factor to some extent. However, I think it goes much deeper than that. Greece and Turkey have a pretty good relationship these days. But the disgusting religious hatred will not die.

Here’s the head of the church, Archbishop Christodoulos, speaking in 2005:

“We are headed for Israel, or hell, in other words,” said Christodoulos, speaking at the Aghios Spyridon Church in Athens. “We see that the forces of darkness are undermining this country and are trying to remove Christianity from Greece and create a new order in our society so that in a few years nobody remembers God or the Church.”

Then there’s Theodorakis, who insists he is no racist. It’s just that, you know, Jews are fanatics, arrogant and aggressive; French Jews are not really French; Israel is fascist and Sharon is like Hitler; Jews control world finance…

Maybe Lindsay can explain how the presence of Jews in Europe has deschristianized the people of the continent, as he argued in a previous thread?

Speaking a a half-greek, and while making no apologies for the level of antisemitism to be found in greece, avriani is NOT a centre-right paper, it has always been very much on the hard right; 15 years ago, when I was still living there, it was decidedly on the far-right.

“Jews killed Jesus”. – David T.

The Romans crucified Jesus. The Jews did not have the power to execute anyone, hence the appeal to Pilate. What they did (we are taught) was not to recognise Jesus as the Christ. Christians believe (or should) that they too share in this blame. We all refuse Christ.

The Disciples and Apostles were Jews. Paul was a Jew and a Roman citizen. And so on. Leave off the ‘Christians hate Jews’ line for a bit please.

Greece hates the Jews? All of them? Can that be verified? I think the headline is much worse actually, since it seeks to validate the calumny that the “Jews run America.” As I have written here before, I have worked for a Jewish charitable organisation and a more fractious bunch of people you could not hope to meet! World domination? That lot? Scotland will win the World Cup first.

Jews killed Jesus

That’s incorrect.

Everyone killed Jesus.

I’m surprised at this because Greece hasn’t really had much of a history of anti-semitism, at least from what I’ve heard.

Avriani is a rightwing newspaper well-known for propagating racism e.g. against non-european refugees and Albanian immigrants and is like most Greek bourgeois newspapers virulently anti-Turkish … so no one should be astonished, when they spread anti-semitism

I really don’t get why the Greeks give a flying turd about Jews. It would be more logical for them to hate Muslims;

Ah yes, the voice of reason. That reason which plays such a great part in emotions such as hate, and love, or giving a flying fuck. What at stupid thing to write!

“That’s incorrect.” “Everyone killed Jesus.”

I did not.

David T - not only did we kill Jesus we then had the temerity not to accept him as the messiah.

The power of antisemitic tropes never fails to amaze me, curiously in modern times (today!) antisemitism seems to have then greatest virulence in societies with fewer Jews. I remember the post communist elections in Poland where virtually every candidate was accusing each other of being Jewish despite the fact there were only 5000 Jews in the country. In Japan a country that seems to be judenfrei Mein Kampf is a best seller and now this.

David T, no, I’m afraid that it is you socially libertine, rabidly “free”-marketeering, Likud First (and whether or not anyone in Israel still votes for them) warmongers who are now the “fringe nutters”, and really always were. You just can’t see it yet.

With any luck, you will see it under President Obama, who certainly wouldn’t have staged the bailout if he had already been President, who opposed the Iraq War, who is really just indifferent about Israel, and who has been nominated, and will be elected, with the very strong support of the black church and of all the most morrally, socially and culturally conservative people in the Democratic Party, who are, of course, Democrats for the right reasons - economic reasons.

David T, you and yours are now living on the charity of those of us so poor that we are required to pay taxes, whether in industrial or agricultural America, or in the North, the Midlands, the Scottish Lowlands and South Wales, which the weak pound will turn back into heavily unionised manufacturing heartlands.

Your own City, like Wall Street, is only still there at all as a publicly funded theme park, because visitors to London, like visitors to New York, expect to see it. But sooner or later, we who pay for it will think of something better to do with the money.

Remember that.

What sort of shit journalism is that? Notice that no-one talks about wasp domination, which actually exist, but of which it won’t be the end.

I’ve a directory of Greek daily newspapers in front of me, with circulation figures. If they are correct (and the figures for Avriani are undated, but are certainly no more recent than 2002 - so may well not reflect the current media market) - then Avriani has (or had) a daily circulation of around 50,000, which is or was (again depending on the dating and accuracy of other of the figures) the 6th largest circulation of any daily newspaper in the country. if that provides any kind of context.

“Remember that.”

That’s the sort of rhetorical flourish that this chap would use.

PS: but you’re some form of hospital administrator - so you are hardly a horny handed son of toil!

The sixth largest circulation paper sells ony 50,000 copies? Damn.

I’m much more excited than I was about Clinton.

If he gets elected we’ll get to find out what he actually stands for.

“David T, no, I’m afraid that it is you socially libertine, rabidly “free”-marketeering, Likud First (and whether or not anyone in Israel still votes for them) warmongers”

David Lindsay, David is not a Likud First. He is a Saducean first (whether or not anyone in Israel still votes for them).

Would you answer my question?

Maybe Lindsay can explain how the presence of Jews in Europe has deschristianized the people of the continent, as he argued in a previous thread?

Fabian - the point is according to christian theology (Catholic) all Jews for all time were responsible for death of Christ. The sin of Deicide was not rescinded by the Catholic church until 1964.

This issue caused quite a debate within the early christian church. St Augustine, Bishop of Hippo was approached by a group of christians who asked him, if all Jews were equally guilty of killing god then why don’t we kill them? i.e. all the Jews. His reply is illuminating, the reason Christians needed to keep Jews alive was to be a witness to the return of the messiah in order for them (us!) to testify to the truth of christianity.

I believe that Christian antisemitism was a necessary condition for the holocaust. It was the base on which the scientific racism of the Nazis was built.

I am not a hospital administrator. I don’t know where you got that from.

I am, however, a tax-payer. Not a bailout beneficiary like David T et al in the City - they are too rich to have to pay tax, and the rest of us have just stumped up half a trillion pounds (from where?)in order to keep them that way. So they can damn well shut their mouths.

David Herman, I know the story, but I was just answering to John P.

Is today deranged lunatic day or is Mr Lindsay another spoofer? I fear not. What’s your problem boychuk?

David Loony, you can read about how much tax people pay here. Notice it goes down to zero when you earn more than a hospital toilet cleaner.

St Augustine, Bishop of Hippo

Hippos have their own bishop. How cool is that! Where do I convert?

at the watering hole of course

Fabian, everything that people such as the Euston Manifesto lot like about North-Western Europe or Coastal America, and then also project onto Israel (a country where the balance of power is held by Shas, but never mind), results from the entry of Jews into the upper echelons of mainstream society and culture during the “long nineteenth century”.

That that society and culture would become less Christian as a result was widely predicted by proponents and opponents alike at the time, as was that the Jews in question would become less observant, would marry out, &c.

Both have happened. But neither has happened to anything like the extent that was predicted. I say again, by proponents and opponents alike.

After all, if they had, then why would anyone see any need for this site, just for a start?

But if they hadn’t AT ALL, then how would this site be possible, just for a start?

Lindsay your just another antisemite obsessed with Jewish power. Its not about us, you need to look within.

What Jewish power?

I have been trying to argue all through this thread that there isn’t any, as the election of Obama will demonstrate. That election will not be “the end of Jewish domination”. It will just be the proof that there never was any.

Here we go again with “antisemitism”. Any such charge at the present time, and certainly on here, is purely and simply an attempt to prevent criticism of those who have been retained in the lap of luxury at the public expense to which they themselves do not directly contribute. But they are not most Jews. And most of them are not Jewish.

Well, i signed the Euston Manifesto because of its support for broadly democratic principles as the basis of both domestic and international relations, most definitely because not because I support the society and culture of my country (or, rather, having multiple loyalties as I am proud to say I do have, countries) becoming less Christian. Far from it, in fact. I can’t say I gave Jews (either individual ones or the apparently existing conspiratorial mass huddled unanimity you seem to be attempting to conjure up for whatever malign purposes) a thought when giving my support to the venture.

And the idea that the politics of the UK (at least) developed the way they did in the 19th century is down to the prominence of some high-placed Jews: as opposed to, say, the reform acts that broadened the franchise, the emergence of an urbanised industrialised proletariat, etc, etc, etc from which a labour movement sprung. - - - is maybe among the most deluded and offensively conspiratorial things that I’ve read of late.

At least Henry Ford made cars as well as promoting these sorts of arguments.

I think the headline is much worse actually, since it seeks to validate the calumny that the “Jews run America.” As I have written here before, I have worked for a Jewish charitable organisation and a more fractious bunch of people you could not hope to meet! World domination? That lot? Scotland will win the World Cup first.

I’ve met several Jews with the requisite skills and team ethic to suggest they are capable of setting targets and achieving them.

I’m not reassured that your experience at this Jewish charitable organisation amounts to concrete evidence against a secret Jewish plot to control the world.

I’m not reassured that your experience at this Jewish charitable organisation amounts to concrete evidence against a secret Jewish plot to control the world.

What about Tottenham Hotspurs’ abysmal start to the season?

What Jewish power - you accuse Jews of ‘dechristianising’ Europe. You didn’t discuss enlightenment or any other secular forces. So ghetto walls are brought down, Jews are free to enter mainstream society and thereby bring about death knell for christian Europe.

entry of Jews into the upper echelons of mainstream society and culture during the “long nineteenth century”.

Well it was a long 19th century, there wasn’t much to do except enter the echelons.

Venichka clearly doesn’t know that Marx was ethnically Jewish, or that Freud was ethnically Jewish, or, … oh, what’s the use? Still, an interesting point about British exceptionalism (although there was still Disraeli’s doubling of the franchise, which invented that very British exception, working-class Toryism). I doubt that you know you’ve made it, though.

Anyway, those of you who really do subscribe to the ostensible Eustonite values, and to bring us back (eventually) to the Obama victory, consider that if Britain, or France, or America (and the shift has very definitely started there), or any other Western country ever saw the balance of power held by a party which demanded, for example, Sharia law, then Britain, or France, or America, or wherever would have ceased to be a Western country. Agreed?

Well, then, a Western country (never mind “the West’s front line”, or anything like that) simply cannot, ever, have the balance of power held by a party which demands that the law of the land conform, not even to the halachic practices of European Jews, but to the halachic practices of Middle Eastern Jews.

People have berated me in the past for suggesting that the settlers, in fidelity to the Zionist pioneers, were trying to set up a little bit of “long nineteenth-century” Germany in the Levant, and didn’t really want to be in the Middle East at all. Well, you don’t have to take my word for that. Just ask the party with the balance of power in the Knesset.

Israel is certainly no more Western a country than, say, somewhere where the President has to be a Catholic, and where a European language is spoken routinely, including in all official business. Or somewhere with at least five predominantly Christian provinces, and where civil servants are given Sunday morning off to go to church even though Sunday is a working day. Or somewhere where, at least until a recent invasion removed their previous protection, Christians comprised about one eighth of the population. Or somewhere with three reserved seats for Christians (and a reserved seat for Jews) in Parliament.

Those countries rather more Western than Israel are, respectively, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

With the balance of power held by Shas, indeed with Shas as a significant political force at all, Israel is not only not a Western country, but is a very, very, very Middle Eastern country, far less Western than Lebanon, or Syria, or Iraq (at least before the invasion), or Iran, and right up or down there with other neocon favourites (indeed, the Clinton and Bush paymasters) in such places as Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and, above all, Saudi Arabia.

Non-neocon, non-Clintonite, non-Bushite attitudes and policy should reflect this.

Post-neocon, post-Clinton, post-Bush attitudes and policy should reflect this.

The attitudes and policy of the Obama Administration will reflect this.

Lets face facts here - Europe doesn’t care about Israel or Judiasm - in fact, they’d be happily filling up more Gas Chambers tomorrow if they could get away with it, happy cheered on by the Guardian and Independent.

Morgoth, put this on, and come with us please.

What about Tottenham Hotspurs’ abysmal start to the season?

That ended when the Jews threw the Spanish out.

“So ghetto walls are brought down, Jews are free to enter mainstream society and thereby bring about death knell for christian Europe.”

Or Jewish Europe, according to the rabbis at the time.

They were, on balance, perhaps half right. Whether that was a good or a bad thing is not the issue. It certainly happened.

“Anyway, those of you who really do subscribe to the ostensible Eustonite values, and to bring us back (eventually) to the Obama victory, consider that if Britain, or France, or America (and the shift has very definitely started there), or any other Western country ever saw the balance of power held by a party which demanded, for example, Sharia law, then Britain, or France, or America, or wherever would have ceased to be a Western country. Agreed?” – David Lindsay.

Is this available in English?

and accepted Harry the real messiah,

Freud and Marx had a major influence on 19th century England (even if you mean “the long 19th century” of 1789 to 1914?
Not really

I’d say they had a not negligiable (and almost entirely negative) influence in the 20th.

I spit upon (and harshly denounce) both of them. But not because of their ethnicity. I don’t think that is of any import in the scheme of things.

But for the rest. - oh sod it I can’t be bothered. Too many straw men in one place on the eve of the 5th of November can’t be a good thing

Ynet reports that Palestinian sources claim that on his Middle East trip Obama made promises to them about Jerusalem that were much better than anything they had heard from any American president.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3617465,00.html

Does Gene think they are lying or mistaken?

Sonja, what an idiot you are. Really, can’t you even read? It would be more logical for the Greeks to hate Muslims because Greece suffered much under Ottoman (i.e., Muslim) rule (even after that 1453 incident). Is that really hard even for a brain as small as yours to understand?

Sadly I think anti-semetism is very deeply rooted in european society. The Church’s former anti-semetism infected the minds and cultures in many european countries.

I remember visiting a non-Jewish Spanish family, during which one of the children hit the family pet, the mother responded reflexively by saying “No seas Judio”. (don’t be a Jew). The word Jew being used as a stand-in for the word cruel. Subsequently I discovered that this colourful use of language was not restricted to this one family.

The family was very nice, and were very respectful to me, but the connection between Jews and cruelty was part of their lexicon.

For such people, it is easy to fall into assumptions. They see clashes between Israeli’s and Palestinians and they conclude the Jews are to blame because they assume Jews are cruel.

In many cases, simple education helps a great deal, but as these notions are very deep in the mind, they can emerge in times of high emotion.

Jewish control theories are so pathetic. Which Jews are doing the controlling?

Religiously Orthodox? Which; Hasidic, Litvish, Sefardi, Modern?

Non orthodox? Which; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionalists, Liberal? Secular atheists?

Zionists? Non Zionists? Anti Zionists?

Sadly we very rarely agree amongst ourselves, and if we were planning to take over the world, I doubt we would even be able to agree on the chairperson of the planning committee.

When Theodorakis came out with his antisemitic rants, that was very much in line with Greece’s long tradition of support for Arab terrorists throughout the 70s. Krik and Morgoth are right, but espacially Krik.

Yossi, your right, but why even start deconstructing antisemetic theories of Jewish power? It has nothing to do with us. Its a disease of the antisemite.

Sadly we very rarely agree amongst ourselves, and if we were planning to take over the world, I doubt we would even be able to agree on the chairperson of the planning committee

Nonsense. When Israel decides to do something, e.g. bomb the shit out of an Arab nuclear reactor or lift a radar installation from a fortified Egyprian island, it does so amoothly and efficiently. But you don’t really understand Israel, do you?

I think Lindsay’s line is that:

- Jews are indeed weak and divided; but

- the presence of Jews, and particularly emancipated Jews, has had a malign influence on Europe, by dechristianising it.

Nearly Oxfordian, I Know it is hard for you to address me without your hatred of my views deforming the conversation, but have I ever said that Israel is incapable of acting? No. But I hope you can see that Israel is not the entire world, and so doesn’t really demonstrate world domination. And even using your example, while Israel is able to act successfully in defence of the people living there, and long may it be able to do so, I think you will have to agree, infighting and bureaucratic paralysis, is not unknown in Israel.

David Herman,

You are right, it is the disease of the antisemite, and we don’t often gain anything by deconstructing it.

“I think Lindsay’s line is that:

- Jews are indeed weak and divided; but

- the presence of Jews, and particularly emancipated Jews, has had a malign influence on Europe, by dechristianising it.”

Ironically it is fair to say that America is far more Christian that many European nations, and yet it has a far higher percentage of “emancipated” Jews than any European country.

The headline is appalling. But, for the sake of accuracy, can I point out that the Auriani is not an ‘ordinary, middle of the road paper’ - it’s the equivalent of the News of the World here in the UK. No one takes it seriously.

Lindsay is not rational about this, or anything else.

His other thesis is that Oliver Kamm is a sleeper for the Stalinist Communist Party of Britain, whose support for Bosnians facing ethnic cleansing proves that he secretly wants to flood England with Muslims and turn this country into a Sharia state.

He also runs a political party which has one member: himself.

In other words, he is a prize nutter. You do not need to take him seriously.

YossiUK, when I was a kid at school in rural England the word “jew’ was synonymous with “mean”. So “don’t be jewish” mean’t “don’t be stingy”. This was sometimes used by the teachers as well as the kids. There was a custom whereby a boy would throw a small denomination coin on the ground and shout “jew bundle”; everyone would pile on and try and pick it up. All this seems to be like a linguistic memory of the medieval view of Jews.

Thanks Greek Girl - that’s very helpful to know.

In the book of
Mazover, Mark. Dark Continent (New York: Knopf, 1999) are informations about the fate of the Jewish community in Greece during the 2nd WW.
Probably history explains the attitudes of a lot of Greeks to Israeli.

jr, I have never heard of such a use of the word Jew in the UK.

Your experience clearly shows how ingrained and subtle negative attitudes to Jews have been over the years.

These negative uses of language are more sad than dangerous, and I doubt if any of the people you grew up with became rabid anti-semites. But sadly I do think they have a negative effect, even if only in the depths of the unconscious.

I have had friends absent mindedly use the word ‘Jew’ to mean ‘cheapskate’.

I have had friends absent mindedly use the word ‘Jew’ to mean ‘cheapskate’.

That would be the only sense in which I ever encountered anti-Semitism until I was a teenager.

The use of “jew” for “stingy” is similar to expressions such as “Dutch treat” and “going dutch” - noone who uses them is anti-dutch. It probably dates back to a long forgotten period of enmity in the 17th century. I also remember how at school the word “wog” was used to mean “steal”. Another world really.

Mettaculture -

Good post. It’s long been my view that when people get tangled up in complex power politics they often become so Machiavellian that in the end they can’t really remember who they are supporting and why. Or it ends up being a bit like evolution where any trait can be explained in Darwinian fashion by reference to some hypothetical advantage under natural selection - whether or not such an advantage actually existed or indeed exists in practice.

There must be some reason why we support Kosovan separatism but not South Ossetian separatism!

There are a million more Arabs than Jews in America, and vastly more Muslims than Jews there. The idea of America as containing huge numbers of Jews - whether put about by antisemites or put about by smug Likudniks who think that Uncle Sam will always have to rescue them for domestic electoral reasons - is pure fantasy.

And why this widespread but baseless theory that America is more “Christian” than “secular” Europe? While church attendance figures on average Sundays are much higher in the US than in Western Europe, what does that prove? In itself, nothing at all.

What is being inculcated, celebrated and even worshipped is very often a collection of economic, social, cultural and political prejudices that the participants have simply declared to be Christianity (or any specific form of Christianity, including Catholicism), despite their fanatically and even hysterically anti-Christian origins and content, which former is very often denied outright. Those participants have made themselves what Lenin called “Useful Idiots”.

Churches complicit in all of this might pack them in, but they are ultimately not very different from, for example, the “Catholic” Patriotic Association in China. Lest this seem an overstatement, look at the level of American churchgoing support for the Iraq War. And why? To what end? The reversal of Roe v Wade? Believe in that when you see it, and not before. One of the big stories of this election is that the Evangelicals and the traditional Catholics have given up waiting for the Republican Party to deliver on that one.

Third only to the Catholics and the Southern Baptists are the Mormons, who believe that the Native Americans are descended from the Ancient Israelites, that Jesus actually visited America, that the Church flourished there for centuries before Columbus, and that the Second Coming and subsequent earthly reign will taker place in and from Missouri. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and others all likewise simply presuppose that that Coming and reign will be in and from the Good Old U S of A, as if it were self-evident. Doubtless, so do many millions more in other communities.

In Western Europe, by contrast, no country has on paper, and few have in practice, the American system of abortion on demand at every stage of pregnancy (for that, one has to look to America’s new best friends in Eastern Europe).

There are 10 sacral monarchies (11 if one includes the Vatican), monarchy being an institution for which no purely secular argument can ever be constructed.

National events are routinely conducted in the form and course of church services.

Church schools, maintained at public expense, are normal in many European countries, while at least broadly Christian Religious Education and (although this law is widely flouted) a daily collective act of Christian worship are compulsory in all British schools.

In Germany, the churches are actually the largest employers after the several tiers of government, with hardly anyone opting out of the church tax system, with the churches routinely providing numerous services of the kind that provoke uproar when suggested in the US under the rubric of “compassionate conservatism”, and with three tiers of government funding an annual ‘Kirchentag’ (Catholic and Protestant in alternate years) from which no major political figure from Left to Right would dare be absent.

Anglican bishops sit as of right in the British Parliament (where in 2006 they played a key role in blocking physician-assisted suicide); and while the House of Lords might one day be abolished entirely, no one seriously suggests that it might ever remain with only the bishops removed.

Portugal recently re-affirmed that marriage can only be the union of one man and one woman right when Connecticut followed California and Massachusetts by extending marriage to same-sex couples (even though it already had a civil partnerships law).

And so one could go on.

None of which is to suggest that there is not a great deal of re-evangelisation to be done in Western Europe. However, the last possible way of going about this would be to emulate a country in which the absolute exclusion of religion from public life is written into the founding documents as a first principle (however long it might have taken the courts to come round to enforcing this properly), with those documents then elevated to the status of Holy Writ, and their rationalist and Deist authors to that of Prophets and Apostles, in the national folk-religion.

So complete, uncritical and even unthinking is the American identification of that folk-religion with Christianity that the US, alas, pretty much needs to be evangelised from scratch.

Meanwhile, as for fringe politics David T, you neocons will know all about that by this time tomorrow. Back to Straight Left and the Trotskyist groupuscules for you. Except that even they wouldn’t have you anymore. So where ARE you going tp go?

And we in the tax-paying country called Britain will thank our new dependents in tax-exempt Globalondon to mind your manners. Perhaps it is time for our own Declaration of Independence.

You see what I mean?

Seemore Pain, you snivelling ninny, my brain is gigantic and there’s still nothing logical about hatred in the way you describe it. Human, maybe. But not logical. DOH.

David Lindsay - for you

Field:

Kosovo, like Chechnya, wants to join globalisation, European federalism, American military-industrial hegemony, and the militant Islam to which those forces pretend to be opposed but are in fact closely allied: 1980s Afghanistan; 1990s Bosnia; today’s Kosovo, Chechnya, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, and elsewhere; the taking out of a bulwark against Islamic militancy in Iraq, with all the predictable consequences; the global capitalist economic system’s dependence on mass migration, not least to the West from the Islamic world; and tomorrow’s Xinjiang.

Whereas South Ossetia, like Abkhazia, Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh, wants out of a state moving in that very direction?

It is the latter that therefore deserve full recognition and every possible support.

yes sadly I do.

I wonder if I might be one of those “Likudniks”?

i meant “snivelling shit”

David L,

according to history Jews were in ‘Europe’ often before the Romans and Hellenic pussies and certainly before the Franks, the Spanish Vandals, Visigoths, the Bulgarian and Romanian Ostrogoths and the Dutch, certainly before there was anything called ‘Christianity’ or an ‘England’ even.

You can also argue that since Northern European Protestant Christianity is an attempt to re-Judaise a corrupted religion and a hopelessly corrupt Roman Catholic Imperium by returning to its scriptural and ritual roots that the Jewish people and religion did all Christians a massive favour by merely surviving under their cruel yoke.

For many of the latter-day ‘Europeans’ this people merely surviving is too much let alone that there does finally now exist after millenia, some real Jewish Power.

Ynet reports that Palestinian sources claim that on his Middle East trip Obama made promises to them about Jerusalem that were much better than anything they had heard from any American president.

Does Gene think they are lying or mistaken?

You conveniently forgot to mention that Obama denies the report. And since I assume you don’t trust “Palestinian sources” on very much, I’m wondering why you trust them on this.

Lindsay old chap, christianity = judaism + idol worship - kneidlach

This may be of interest to some of you

http://iranazar.net/english.html

David T and jr, you lost the primary, and you are about to lose the election (don’t try and deny it - why on earth would you want Obama over the pro-war McCain?), so what are you going to lose next?

(Losing electiosn is nothing new to you, of course - you lose them in Israel all the time, and no doubt daily raise a glass to the fact that you don’t actually have to live in the country that you wish to condemn to permanent war whether its citizens and inhabitants want it or not.)

I ak again,, this time tomorrow, what will become of you necons? You can’t go back to Straight Left or the Trotskyist groupuscules, because not even they would have you anymore. So where ARE you going to go?

And I say again, we in the tax-paying country called Britain will thank our new dependents in tax-exempt Globalondon to mind your manners. Perhaps it is time for our own Declaration of Independence.

jr, old chap, Judaism (like Islam) is a Semitic reaction against the recapitulation of all three of the Old Israel, Hellenism and the Roman Empire by, in and as Christianity. It is in no sense any sort of mother religion. On the contrary, its founding text is the explicitly anti-Christian Talmud, just as Islam’s is the explicitly anti-Christian Qur’an. If there is a mother religion, then it is Christianity.

Well, unless you know any Jews still sacrificing animals or practising polygamy, as in the Old Testament, and indeed as in the context (the former rather more than the latter, but it still went on) of the New Testament. Do you? Who? Where?

monarchy being an institution for which no purely secular argument can ever be constructed.

This is my favourite line.

Oh dear oh dear, it seems someone has no interest in reality.

Short Order Cook, go on then, construct a purely secular argument for monarchy. I bet you can’t. The Founding Fathers in America couldn’t, which is why they were so against it. That is the strongly secular, and especially anti-Christian, reason why America doesn’t have one. And why so many European countries do.

How about the Monarchy serving as a non-political head of state, who inherits the crown, to avoid the politicisation of election or appointment, who is invested with a great deal of pomp and ceremony to impress the importance of the role and the esteem in which it is held. The monarch being the symbol of the nation and a focus of national pride.

This certainly won’t convince any republican, but neither are atheist supporters of the monarchy convinced by the contention that the only argument for a monarchy is a religious one. Just ask Mr Portillo.

“(Losing electiosn is nothing new to you, of course - you lose them in Israel all the time, and no doubt daily raise a glass to the fact that you don’t actually have to live in the country that you wish to condemn to permanent war whether its citizens and inhabitants want it or not.)”

Is… it true, David T.? Do you… want… to condemn us to permanent war? please…. tell me it isn’t true… please! Oh God! Oh nooooo!

disgusting

ok, this was very funny, but I have a whole world to de-christianize and a baby to put to sleep. So I see you tomorrow.
Night!

David Lindsay -

I think you’ve proved the appropriateness of my analogy with evolutionary explanations.

So now modernism is the benchmark.

So we should not have protested China’s crushing of backward Tibet and should approve heartily of the destruction of Native American and Australian Aboriginal societies?

Yes, I am sure Kosovans are marvellously modern in their outlook and would never stoop to persecuting and intimidating their Serbian neighbours.

In Germany, the churches are actually the largest employers after the several tiers of government, with hardly anyone opting out of the church tax system, with the churches routinely providing numerous services of the kind that provoke uproar when suggested in the US under the rubric of “compassionate conservatism”, and with three tiers of government funding an annual ‘Kirchentag’ (Catholic and Protestant in alternate years) from which no major political figure from Left to Right would dare be absent.

Like much of Dr. Dr. General Secretary Lindsay’s commentary here, this short paragraph (and very long sentence) contains a gram of truth amongst a load of old, unfounded baloney (which begins immediately after the second comma). Remember that!

I am not sure this has been a very grown up debate.

What is the distinction between power and influence? Does anyone seriously deny that Jewish Americans through their representatives and their financial donations have exerted strong influence in support of Israel? Or that such influence is declining relative to their enemies, the Muslims. There are Irish lobbies, Italian lobbies, Mexican lobbies, Cuban lobbies, Catholic lobbies, oil lobbies, green lobbies, space lobbies, Baptist lobbies, Chinese lobbies, Japanese lobbies in America. Why would one think that there wasn’t a Jewish lobby and it is either going to be more powerful or less powerful than some other lobbies?

I think it is hysterical to pretend there isn’t a Jewish lobby or that one of its main focuses has been support for Israel, or deny that it has been remarkably successful in getting American support for Israel.

It’s also acceptable in my view to argue that the Jewish lobby (or any other lobby) has too much influence over policy for whatever reason.

What is not acceptable it to argue that there is some marvellously efficient and complex secret Zionist control of American and world society on the basis of no evidence at all. All the evidence is the other way - if the system of control is so efficient, how to explain Israel virtual isolation diplomatically at times. More often than not the people who put forward the conspiracist ideas are out and out Nazis and racists and the arguments are put forward in order to forward that ideological creed.

Field, In general terms I agree with what you have just posted. Of course there is a Jewish lobby, or more accurately Jewish Lobbies. And of course they have had certain influence.

I agree that the argument of some sort of Zionist/Jewish control of America is unacceptable and clearly the mind that holds to such a view, is afflicted with age old anti-Semitism.

But I believe that the contention that the Jewish lobbies have some sort of exaggerated influence, over and above other lobbies, including the oil lobbies, is also suspect. And not to mention incorrect.

Support for Israel has been a major plank of many Christian groups, who outnumber Jews. And the mostly democratic-voting Jews of America, while supportive of Israel, are not generally supporters of the “Greater Israel” idea, which is maliciously attributed to them by those who scream about The Jewish Lobby.

David T said “You see what I mean?”

yeah.

I’m still waiting for David Lindsay to tell me his view of Spontaneous Human Combustion.

WHAT EXPLAINS THAT, LINDSAY????!!!

Yossi -

One could argue that US policy has been caught between the oil/Arabist lobby and the pro-Israel lobby (actually wider than the Jewish lobby or lobbies of course) and ended up with the worst of both worlds - inviting Arab distrust when it supports Israel and compromising its democratic principles when it supports the Arabs.

That’s one of the reasons I favour getting the oil issue out of the equation through an energy independence policy.

Field, you may well be right. But I think only partially.

I think there are many other factors that have influenced US policy in this area, one of the largest being the Cold War.

All Countries act in self interest by and large, and all weigh up many different interests in pursuing policy.

I don’t think America has done badly regarding the Israel/Arab issue, it has defended Israel more or less, while maintaining at least working relations with the Arab States.

I think those that accuse America of failing because total peace has yet to arrive, are misguided.

I do agree with you, that energy independence is a good policy.

David Lindsay, couple of points:
- I am gung-ho for Obama.
- Jews continue to practise animal sacrifice when there is a temple, may it speedily be rebuilt in our time.
- The founding text of Judaism is the Torah. You can look this up when the library opens in the morning. It is what you call the pentateuch, the first five books of the TaNaKh, which you call the “old testament”. Because the christian bible = Tanakh + david blaine

Field, I think you are right. whether the manichean monomaniacs of HP listen to you is another matter.
of course there is a Jewish-Israeli lobby as there is a Saudi-Arab lobby and an Evangelical-Israeli lobby. the second and third of these groups are made sinister by the fanaticism of their religions (in their case of both) and by the awful nature of the states they represent (in the case of the Saudis). The Jewish-Israeli lobby on the other hand is quite open and democratic, doesnt claim to reprsent Jews as a group, and speaks up for one democracy inside the legislature of another democracy. of course when people start talking about “jewish power” its going to set alarm bells ringing, but since none of even speak Greek we dont know what subtletities that phrase has in that language. certainly different to what it might have in English or German, and we’re talking about a tabloid rag anyway. The question is - are the Americans fair in their dealings with the Israelis and Palestinians? I’d say they werent. 95 % of world opinion would agree with me. doesnt mean we’re all right, but neither does it mean we have anything against Israelis, the state of Israel or Jews.

Short Order Cook, go on then, construct a purely secular argument for monarchy.

It was my favourite line because it is gibberish on so many levels. Does something need an argument in support of it to exist? And what kind of argument? I think the number of monarchies that have been set up based on an argument are quite small, and most of those that were, the argument wasn’t philosophical or religious. What kind of argument was used to set up Saudi Arabia or Jordan?

Ed, what is “fair”?

The use of “jew” for “stingy” is similar to expressions such as “Dutch treat” and “going dutch” - noone who uses them is anti-dutch

Whatever. I am not very large at all, but people had better not use it in my hearing.

If I may return to Greeks bearing poisonous gifts…

There is a trend in Greek polity (which should never be confused for all Greeks, or majority of Greeks – I have not the faintest idea how widespread it is but I have encountered specimens either way) which is nationalistic, inward-looking and obsessed with victimhood. Greek victimhood. Actually, it is obsessed with two axioms: (a) the greatness of Greeks as the father-nation of democracy, science, philosophy and all kinds of wisdom, and (b) the victimhood of Greeks in the hands of evil foreigners.

This frame of mind lends itself very easily to hysterical anti-foreigner feelings: whether anti-Turk or anti-American or anti-anything. It also easily lends itself to toxic anti-Semitism even from those, like Mikis Theodorakis, who presumably should have known better. We should see these outpourings in this light, and remember that they don’t represent a consensus of all Greeks: like in any other society, there are all sorts of people there, across the entire spectrum.

I see that Yossi is now denying he wrote this:
I doubt we would even be able to agree on the chairperson of the planning committee -
and he accuses me of ‘deforming’ the conversation (whatever that’s supposed to mean!).
So, you are a liar as well … You claimed that Jews are incapable of acting, only talking; but when faced with evidence showing that Israelis are not snivelling talkers but people who act decisively when they put their minds to it, you resort to distortions and lies …

Nearly Oxfordian, I suggest you and I make this our last post, as you are simply unable to have a civil conversation with me. I don’t deny for one second that I wrote that. But I am referring to the accusation of global Jewish control, in which apparently, most Jews are involved.

In such a situation, the majority of Jews would have to work together, including many different segments of the Jewish world. As sadly, many factions disagree bitterly, you and I are a perfect example, this would be, and in-fact is very unlikely.

I have never suggested Israelis are snivelling talkers, not at all. But sadly you confuse my dislike and rejection of Zionism for a hatred of Israelis. This is very sad.

May HaShem bless you and draw you close to his Torah.

I truly wish you well, but I no longer wish to converse with you, I simply don’t want to be a contributing factor to your Loshon Hora and Sinas Chinam.

Field is right: yes, Jewish pressure groups exist in USA, but so do innumerable other pressure groups. And they are all exercising their democratic rights within the law. Whether you agree with them (and obviously you can’t agree with all of them) is completely immaterial: democracy is the sort of regime in which people can disagree with you.

Yet, there is a unique obsession with the American-Jewish Lobby (a misnomer, because there is no single “lobby” of this sort), different in kind with concerns with any other “lobby”. Yes, the American public, to an overwhelming extent, is supportive of Israel’s right to exist, her right to security and peace. (Which doesn’t – and shouldn’t – mean an agreement with specific Israeli policies.) But the reasons are broad and varied and, frankly, it is risible to claim that this is the outcome of some subterranean dealings of a secret Jewish cabal.

It is also self-serving. Those anti-Israeli extremists, who wish to erase Israel off the map or ascribe to Israel/Jews all the evils befalling the world, find it difficult to understand why hundreds of millions of people disagree with them on the merit of the case. A conspiracy theory is so much more convenient.

‘On the contrary, its founding text is the explicitly anti-Christian Talmud, just as Islam’s is the explicitly anti-Christian Qur’an. If there is a mother religion, then it is Christianity.’

There is scarcely anything about Jesus, Christianity or Christians in the Talmud. You could only assert otherwise, Lindsay, from complete and utter ignorance.

The prime cause of the Talmud is the destruction of the temple, the loss of Jerusalem and Jewish sovereignty in the land. The rabbis gathered every scrap of information about what had been lost lest Israel be completely lost among the nations. It allowed Jews to carry Israel with them wherever they went.

On the other hand, the literature of the church fathers, in which I am immersed on a daily basis, has incomparably more references to Jews and Judaism, usually negative. For every church father, without exception, the Jewish loss of temple, Jerusalem and sovereignty in the land was absolute, indispensable manifest proof for them that g-d had cursed Jews with dispossession as a punishment for their rejection and crucifixion of Jesus.

Christianity is founded on Jewish dispossession. But the Talmud is not founded on Christianity.

Of course, Lindsay, your assertion that Christianity is the mother religion of Judaism is a variation of the patristic claim that there was more continuity between ancient Israel and the church than between ancient Israel, Jews and Judaism. It was colonial appropriation, with largely gentile Christians retrospectively colonizing the literature of Jews and Judaism, as well, of course, as the land of which they had been dispossessed.

Justin Martyr, one the first in history to call himself ‘Palestinian’, a citizen of the hellenistic colony of Neapolis (modern Nablus), founded on the site of old Shechem or Samaria, explicitly said that Christians had inherited all that promised to Abraham, including the land of Israel. The colonizing of the land of Israel by strangers was again proof positive for Christians of Jews’ sin and punishment.

Morgoth wrote,

Lets face facts here - Europe doesn’t care about Israel or Judiasm - in fact, they’d be happily filling up more Gas Chambers tomorrow if they could get away with it, happy cheered on by the Guardian and Independent.

Spot on!

Sorry, Yossi, but you’re a disgrace to your people. It’s a good thing most Jews and Israelis have dispensed with your backward-thinking.

Field wrote,

“anyone seriously deny that Jewish Americans through their representatives and their financial donations have exerted strong influence in support of Israel?”

This is not only false, it is pure anti-Semitism.

1. Amercan Jews have no “representatives” in Congress; the American people do. And those representatives in Congress are pro-Israeli because the American people are staunchly pro-Israeli. Their polled support for Israel ranges usually from 50% to 60% and rarely falls below 40% - several times the level of support for the Palestinians.

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/ref/gallupisrael.html

2. Pro-Israel “financial donations” to campaigns have been a fraction of the total, and well below the donations by (for example) the oil industry, ….

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/toppacs.php?cycle=2008&party=A

Sonja, I won’t take back the truth.

Lindsay wrote, “Those countries rather more Western than Israel are, respectively, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.”

Lindsay, you’re a nut.

Ed wrote, “The question is - are the Americans fair in their dealings with the Israelis and Palestinians? I’d say they werent. 95 % of world opinion would agree with me.”

(A) 95% of world opinion (1) at one time thought the world flat (2) made little attempt to stop Hitler from genocide. Thus I speculate that most Americans and certainly most Jews dont’ give a flying damn about world opinion - justifiably so.

(B) I suspect most of the world not influenced by justice but by Arab money and Arab oil. Three cheers for the Americans, who seem to reject the blackmail.

(C) My own opinion is that the Americans have NOT been fair - they should have told the Palestinians long ago to leave the West Bank and Gaza, in completion of the populatione xhcnage begun by the Arabs’ expulsion of Jews.

Philo-Semite -

I didn’t say ELECTED ASSEMBLY representatives. I was thinking of activists in various organisations. I didn’t say donations to election campaigns. I meant the whole range of donations to various lobby groups and institutes.

And please withdraw the charge of anti-semitism. An anti-semite is someone who believes Jews conspire together on the basis of racial identity for malevolent purposes. I don’t believe that for one moment. I believe the Jewish cultural tradition has been a rich one that has greatly benefited humanity.

Jews are not the only ones Greeks hate. Because of the sack of Constanapole in 1204 by the Western knights of the Fourth Crusade, Greeks also despise Catholics especially the Italians and French (Franks). This accounts for the cool reception John Paul II recieved several years ago when he reached out to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Did any one bother to tell that the Greek paper reporter than Obama’s wife’s cousin is an Orthodox Jew?

Have they bothered to look at this?

http://www.rabbisforobama.com/

“US rabbis launch campaign for Obama

Jewish religious leaders join forces in support of Democratic candidate. ‘With his tough but pragmatic approach to Iran, Senator Obama is in best position to restore faith in America,’ they say” by Yitzhak Benhorin

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3594972,00.html

It’s sometime hard to tell if Jew haters are just stupid or just insane? They certainly let their wishes guide their thinking.

But, for the sake of accuracy, can I point out that the Auriani is not an ‘ordinary, middle of the road paper’ - it’s the equivalent of the News of the World here in the UK. No one takes it seriously.

FOr the sake of accuracy, the News of the World is the biggest selling English Newspaper in the world. And is one of the most influential media outlets IN HISTORY.

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Apparently this expert went to an entirely different religious school than I did. Who knew? I have been attending Jewish worship services for more than fifty years, always thinking that that scroll we treasure was the Torah, but all along it has been the Talmud. Fascinating. And explicitly anti-Christian at that. I missed all of the mentions of Christianity, but I was probably taking my turn running the world and oppressing the Europeans when it came up.

” but I was probably taking my turn running the world and oppressing the Europeans when it came up.”

Indeed oppressed by dying in the millions.

The Holocaust was Jewish plot all the better to oppress them.

Just to clarify a few things about Avriani. Avriani is a populist newspaper which supported the socialist goverment during the 1980s with a circulation of 500000 papers. Today Avriani sells less than 10000 issues and it supports the New Democracy rightwing goverment mainly due to its hatred towards the reformed socialist party and the need for accessing public advertising which is the only way that the paper survives until today. Moreover it is a paper characterized by two main features. Firstly they are experts in sleaze campaigns and secondly they are conspiracy nutjobs (it has denied 9/11 since the early days of the event). Finally, anti-americanism as well as antisemitism is rife in Greece due mainly to the involvement of USA during the Greek Civil War, the role of the US Goverment in supporting the Military dictatorship during the 1970s and finally its role in dividing Cyprus (which led to antisemitic conspiracy theories based around Henry Kissinger).

“Finally, anti-americanism as well as antisemitism is rife in Greece due mainly to the involvement of USA during the Greek Civil War, the role of the US Goverment in supporting the Military dictatorship during the 1970s and finally its role in dividing Cyprus (which led to antisemitic conspiracy theories based around Henry Kissinger).”

This is just an excuse for antisemitism.

If there were no Jew hatred in the first place, driven by the Greek Orthodox Church there would be no antisemitic conspiracy theories.

David Lindsey. Your rantings here have bored me to tears.

I will not visit your blog site.

I WILL scroll past your posts although I may read a response to them if it is included in another response. In other words. By accident.

Have a bad day.

I liked the chutzpah (whoops sorry - ooh what a giveaway!) of Lindsay accusing others of being kooky thus:

“Third only to the Catholics and the Southern Baptists are the Mormons, who believe that the Native Americans are descended from the Ancient Israelites, that Jesus actually visited America, that the Church flourished there for centuries before Columbus, and that the Second Coming and subsequent earthly reign will taker place in and from Missouri. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and others all likewise simply presuppose that that Coming and reign will be in and from the Good Old U S of A, as if it were self-evident. Doubtless, so do many millions more in other communities.”

Something here about “motes” and “eyes” I think - which testament was that in by the way?

JR - withdrawal from the west bank and east Jerusalem. not because it will stop the jew-hatred or Islamic fundamentalism or Hamas or imadinnerjacket, because it wont. but because its right

Ed, I thinking everyone’s been trying for this, apart from the extremists, with the support of the US.

maybe. but B.O. could make it happen. Israel could survive alone but it would rather have American support.

Jews are not the only ones Greeks hate. Because of the sack of Constanapole in 1204 by the Western knights of the Fourth Crusade, Greeks also despise Catholics especially the Italians and French (Franks). This accounts for the cool reception John Paul II recieved several years ago when he reached out to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Am i the only one thinking that a lot of the comments here, for example this one, are a bit racist against “the Greeks” (no, I know Greek isn’t a race, bla bla) and based on unfounded assumptions and a bit of spurious logic?

Sorry, but David All is saying here that there is some sort of logical link from a cool reception of a pope to a posited Greek hatred of Catholics and this being due to something that happened 800 years ago. I mean, if Greek girl is still here, Greek girl do you *hate* Catholics? And if you do, is it because you are Greek? And because of the crusades?

Like I tried to point out yesterday, I am not denying that some humans of a particular nationality unjustifiably hate people of another nationality or religion and that they may cite a historical resentment for their reasons, but nevertheless that doesn’t mean their cited reasons are reasonable and nor does it mean that their whole nation follows the same idiotic, illogical line of reason. To characterise the Greek nation on the basis of one newspaper… it’s very unhelpful.

Sonja, discussions about racism seem to attract racialists.

Sonja: I apologize for stating the Greeks as a whole hate Catholics. That was indeed a bigoted statement. I believe though it is fair to say a good many Greeks to dislike Catholics and the Catholic Church given the long rivarly and feud between Rome & the Eastern Orthodox Church. And yes, for a good many Greek Nationalists, the Sack of Constantapole in 1204 by Latin Crusaders is something that has not been Forgotten or Forgiven. No doubt there are other factors at work including the Greek-Italian War of 1940-41 where the Greeks had the upper hand until Hitler sent the Whermacht to rescue his Italian ally. That and the subsequent Occupation of Greece by the Axis certainly left plenty of hatred not only against the Germans, but the Italians as well for attacking Greece in the first place.

Oh well, it’s only to be expected isn’t it ? Wonder what they will say when they learn that Obama has offered the postion of Chief of Staff to Rahm Emanuel ? Do they not realise that their filthy press is read throughout the world and brings the Greeks into total and utter disrepute ?

I’m surprised at this because Greece hasn’t really had much of a history of anti-semitism, at least from what I’ve heard.

There is, unfortunately, quite a pronounced record of anti-semitism featuring the attitude of the Greek Orthodox Church, the destruction of the Jewish community in Salonika, once a heavily Jewish city, and Greek participation in the extermination of 86% of Greece’s Jews in the Holocaust.

“Sack of Constantapole”

Constantinople in English
Constantinópolis in Spanish.

Sorry for the mistake, Fabian. Should have looked it up. Thanks for the correction.

Obviously this is very disturbing news. Does anyone actuallly know the circulation of this paper? Someone above said it’s the equivalent of the NOTW (which I seem to remember is the UK’s biggest selling Sunday paper!).
Either way: the very fact that it’s on sale on the streets of Athens certainly beggars belief.

And sadly, there appear to be a lot of dangerously ignorant people on this thread. Morgoth’s hate-fuelled bigotry has already been addressed by others. I think we’d be well aware of such sentiment, were it so common in Europe. It simply isn’t.
Do you live in Alaska, Morgoth?

And is this David T character in fact the jester here? His contributions have not exactly been productive.
Why bring up the preposterous “the Jews killed Jesus” mantra?
This type of stuff only applies, of course, to a minority of nutters among Christians.

Being Jewish Greek I read these comments wandering how people who profess themselves as opposing hate, they are so easy in professing it themselves.

Greece, despite all, is a modern democracy with no more flaws or advantages than any other country. Although antisemitism is capillary widespread, there is litle to none violence in respect to other european countries. The problem is not so much the extension of antisemitism but the lack of will in opposing it.

The complete article and the translation can be found <a href=”http://abravanel.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/antisemitism_avriani/”here.

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It’s Constantinopla, not Constatinópolis. Opposite the Greek newspaper, almost all serious Spanish newspaper has been talking about Obama and the jew lobby in a way I’d call pathological.

Some people talked about jew as synonym of cruel. It’s quite common in old people the expression “jewish dog”, too.