Harry's Place

In the seasonal spirit of peace between all men, here’s one for you for tonight Deborah:

To the tune of ‘Away In A Manger”:

Away with the fairies,
No brains in their head
The little self-haters
They weave their false web

They start every sentence
They say ‘As a Jew…’
But they never have been near
A Synagogue pew…”

I’m sure there will be more posted below.

Silent Night, Holy Night
Carolsinging Jews
Are a hilarious sight
They use their religion to
Spread their ill will
Their malicious mission
They’re quick to fulfil…
If Sigmund Freud ca-ame
He’d say their Mums are to blame…

Hope the mince pies are kosher at least

The Holly and the OyVeh

The Holy and the OyVeh
Were in the pub one day
When in came a Palestinian –
A Christian – he did say:

“They hate all Jews and women
About gays they make a fuss
Not a Christian’s left in Gaza
Thanks to Islamist Hamas”

This event has proved unexpectedly controversial. See our Forum. Peace be unto all in this season of goodwill to all men.

http://st-james-piccadilly.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36&p=140#p140

unexpectedly controversial? Anti-Jewish bigotry isn’t controversial these days, I guess.

A couple of hundred years ago good christian folk would have visited the mad people in the bethlehem hospital for entertainment. Now they come to you. That’s what I call progress. Can I suggest for next year: an auto da fe.

We don’t want to offend Christians

says Deborah Fink. Jews, on the other hand, are great fun to wind up!

I posted this story in another thread here earlier this week; here it is with the lyrics:
http://www.thejc.com/articles/belittled-town-bethlehem.
Fink’s concept of the essence of asajew:
“It is because I am Jewish that I am doing this. Jews like arguing and they like dissent. I think I am being more Jewish than those who slavishly follow the Israeli government’s line.”

As I said, some of us were planning to go and singalong, as it were, but were put off by the steep admission fee. That, and Jenny Tonge speaking.

We wait for Rowan Williams to pronounce on the matter; meanwhile according to the ES the previous one, Lord Carey, has criticised the decision to go ahead with the service as “unhelpful”.

Fantastic isn’t it? “Asa Jew” Jewish Trotskyists go on their knees to a church where they sing Christmas carols in order to embolden Christian antisemites.

You couldn’t make it up.

No Jew with any sense of their own Jewishness would behave like that.
No Trotskyist with any pride in their political tradition would behave like that.

Can’t wait to see the pictures of Tony Greenstein dovening and grovelling in Church, trying to rouse the Jew-haters against his fellow Jews.

You’ve got to admit, winding up Jews can be fun, and these guys are really good at it.

You can’t open the Jewish Chronicle link directly from the above- their subscription only thing- you can if you google- jewish chronicle belittled. But to save you the trouble:
(How an anti-Israel group re-wrote Christmas)

A Jewish anti-Israel group has been criticised for re-writing traditional Christmas carols to attack Israel’s policies towards Palestine. The songs are due to be performed during a concert at a Central London church next week.

Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods (JBIG) said it hoped the event would raise awareness of “the Palestinian people of Bethlehem”.

But David Gifford, chief executive of the Council of Christians and Jews, called the new carols “puerile”.
The opening verse of the revised version of Once in Royal David’s City reads: “Once in royal David’s city/ Stood a big apartheid wall/ People entering and leaving/ Had to pass a checkpoint hall.”

By the end of The Twelve Days of Christmas, Ehud Olmert is said to have sent: “12 assassinations/ 11 homes demolished/ 10 wells obstructed/ Nine sniper towers/ Eight gunships firing/ Seven checkpoints blocking/ Six tanks a-rolling/ Five settlement rings/ Four falling bombs/ Three trench guns/ Two trampled doves and an uprooted olive tree.”

O Little Town of Bethlehem becomes: “O little town of Bethlehem/How still we see thee lie!/A wall is laid where tourists stayed/ And people can’t go by.”

Organiser Deborah Fink, who helped write the new lyrics, said: “It is because I am Jewish that I am doing this. Jews like arguing and they like dissent. I think I am being more Jewish than those who slavishly follow the Israeli government’s line.”

Reverend Charles Hedley defended his decision to grant the group permission to perform in the church and said: “One can sweep under the carpet what’s happening or one can make things known and highlight the ironies and the paradoxes of it.”

But Mr Gifford maintained: “I think it is very sad that so much energy has been devoted to this. It legitimises their approach and I don’t think that is right.This entire event is one-sided. It is not an opportunity for dialogue, it’s not an opportunity to listen.”

Lior Ben Dor, spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in London, said: “If the Jewish carol singers happen to have relatives in Israel, I am sure they would have received the good news that thanks to the security fence, which serves to protect communities in Israel from terrorist infiltration from the West Bank, they feel a lot safer.”

Money raised at the concert will be donated to the British charity Medical Aid for Palestinians, and Open Bethlehem, a group campaigning against the security barrier.

Organisers have said that Baroness Tonge, the Liberal Democrat peer, will be reading at the carol concert.

Organisers have said that Baroness Tonge, the Liberal Democrat peer, will be reading at the carol concert.

Let’s hope the good Baroness doesn’t get too excited, else it could get messy….

“Can’t wait to see the pictures of Tony Greenstein dovening and grovelling in Church, trying to rouse the Jew-haters against his fellow Jews.”

Surely, tripping/kicking against his fellow Jews?

Having agreed that my Church should host this event, I am now on Annual Leave. But I am interrupting my Annual Leave to prepare a statement which will be available soon.

“Reverend Charles Hedley defended his decision to grant the group permission to perform in the church and said: “One can sweep under the carpet what’s happening or one can make things known and highlight the ironies and the paradoxes of it.””

Rev. Hedley, do mean that it is ironic that Fink re-invents/recapitulates traditional Christian anti-Judaism as anti-Jewish state of Israelism, especially given her claim to be in nowise a Christian and to be doing it, rather, as a Jew?

Ironically, Jewish converts to some kind of cultural or other Christianity have often said they were more Jewish than the other Jews who ’slavishly’, as it were, follow the rabbis, Talmud, Mamon, Capital etc.

This time IN Topic. I commend you to a funny Book called “My Jesus Year” where the son of an Orthodox Rabbi experiences what its like to be a Christian for a year http://myjesusyear.com/

Poor Deborah, of all the ways to proclaim:

“I am not so much a Jew as a Christian, and, if I am a Jew, I am not a Jew like those big bad Jewish Jews in Israel, or those Jewish Jewish slaves in Britain who, in anti-Christian fashion, follow the party line of the Jewish state of Israel”.

“I am a good Christian Jew. Please don’t treat me like a Jewish Jew”.

As for “We don’t want to offend Christians”, what disingenousnes. Of course they don’t wan to offend Christians: they want to demonstrate how Christian they are, AS A JEW.

Poor, confused lady.

Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?

I have to say, I think that the Rev. Hedley has a point. I can see that, as Christian clergyman, it would be difficult to refuse some Jews the opportunity to sing or demonstrate in this fashion, especially if they wish to use a culturally Christian format for doing so.

The cynical part of me also says Fink and co. are doing themselves no favours in doing so.

Revd Charles, I’m truly sorry you had this trouble. Most Jews I know are in full support of maintaining Christian Festivals and observance. Don’t see why we should ignore the Jew Jesus.

As for myself I don’t have a religious belief but I am always in admiration of people who do. When in the USA I see/hear many Christians expressing their faith openly and I am always supportive – while declining the offer to accept Jesus as my saviour.

I like hymns, they are easy music to play on the guitar without having to work out too many chords.

To everyone else, I was looking for a chance to ask who has seen the first “Jesus at a checkpoint in Bethlehem” Christmas card of the season, or the first statement of the season that “Jesus was a Palestinian”. How abhorrent when we know that Christians are being kicked out of Palestinian areas.

“Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?”

Like all kapos they are a minority but brave? Are they threatened?

I feel sorry for Hedley: AS a Christian minister he must have some sense of Christian mission, and encouraging or welcoming Jews into the fold, as it were, must be something on his horizon. It is just unfortunate when they use it largely to loudly differentiate themselves from many, if not the majority of their fellow Jews. It brings the whole issue into the spot light which must make it very awkward for anyone committed to inter-faith dialogue.

He does not want to act as censor of anyone’s political views, cultural or religious affiliations.

I do like religion, however. That is, I like attractive Gurdwaras, Mosques, Renaissance choral music, and Thought For The Day with the Reverend Dr Giles Fraser, the Vicar of Putney. You know, that sort of thing, rather than the sort of religion that involves fulminating against comedy musicals, or chopping people’s heads off on Youtube.

The funny thing is: with such a liberal and (essentially) secular worldview, I think you would fit in well at St James’s Piccadilly, tbh.

And I would moreover contend that the utter lack of concern for Christian truths for which this particular church is mildly notorious (they are v.. into the “Sea of Faith” thing: I see a retreat entitled “Spirituality and progressiveness”, led by the “Progressive Christianity Network” associated with the church is in the offing) is precisely the reason why they are hosting such a moronic, offensive event.

You would never find such a thing at the Oratory, or at Maiden Lane. Nor Spanish Place. Not even at Farm Street!

Perhaps if there was a bit more gentle religion and goodwill at Christmas, rather than crass comercialisation and pressured consumerism, it may be a good thing. A bit more consideration of those less fortunate than ourselves.

Christmas is about certain messages of fellowship, and yet concentrated consumerism can run against that. We are encouraged to spoil our kids with the latest consumer electronics, rather than think of others. We must rush out to get all the latest goodies, gorge ourselves on dead animals, and consume aplenty, and yet do we look beyond all that?

Recessions are bad things, but perhaps with a little less spending, we can work out what is actually important and meaningful.

“I don’t see carols as sacred music. Unless you’re in a Jewish school, you’re going to be exposed to them everywhere. We don’t want to offend Christians, and wouldn’t dream of parodying Easter stuff, or even proper hymns. There’s a sense that these are more like folk songs.”

I didn’t realise people who go to Muslim schools get Xmas carols.
Or that they weren’t proper hymns.

“Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?”

As brave, perhaps, as those other Jews who converted to Christianity, Rev. Hedley.

What you mean by ‘brave’, Reverand, is not, ‘conversion to the views of the few’ -for that constitutes the views of most of Anglo-Jewry- put ‘conversion to the view of the cultural majority’, or what has been the view of the cultural majority for most of European, and Christian history.

Christian culture and civilization has held for most of its history that Jews generally are a bad, sinful or erroneous lot, and that it is perfectly just and understandable for Jews to leave them, become cultural or devout Christians, and, often as not, preach to the majority of their fellow Jews, from a cultural or religious Christian position, AS TRUE, FULFILLED AND SPIRITUAL JEWS i.e. Verus Israel.

If they sing carols, they are protected by mainstream, Christian culture. It would have been braver, I think, to sing Hanuka songs.

If these Jews are brave, then so are Muslims who sing carols against mainstream Arab and Islamic states, or against Arab, including, Palestinian nationalism.

Revd Charles Hedley:

Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?

Brave? Holding an event which mocks the suffering of so many people? If you want bravery you should look to the service men and women and security guards in Israel who go to work each day not knowing if they will see the end of that day, in order to protect their fellow citizens of whatever religion. Thanks to the security fence, they are winning the fight against genocidal terror. Your event proposes to unleash further terror. By wishing away the fence you wish for the deaths of many people. be careful what you wish for.

Revd Charles Hedley: I propose you hold another event where Jew, Christians and Muslims can pray together for peace. This would be to raise money for causes that are genuinely about peace, and not about painting animal faces on your enemies and mocking them.

It is ironic that, given for most of Christian history, Christian tradition has held Jews to have been exiled and dispossessed for rejecting Jesus, Jews now sing Christian songs delegitimising the return and restoration of Jews, yet highlighting the exile and dispossession of Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

A truly Christian approach is to recognise the equivalence of these two sets of exiles and dispossessions, and recognise the justice in seeing both these addressed, first in two states then, perhaps, and only by consent, in one state, when both parties learn to see their exile and dispossession in the other. Which, I think, will not be for a long time.

I assure you, Rev. Hedley, that is not the view of JBIG and co. But that does not mean they should not be allowed to express their views, as they wish, provided they do not break the law.

A truly Christian carol that wished to express the pain of Palestinian Christians and Muslims would have to acknowledge the pain and suffering of Jews the same creators of that carol tradition had held to be Jews’ proper lot for their rejection of that sweet, gentle, merciful Jesus Christ.

“Recessions are bad things, but perhaps with a little less spending, we can work out what is actually important and meaningful.”

The authentic note of the puritan. Personally, I think drinking and eating, buying presents for my kids, dancing and singing to excess is plenty important and meaningful enough. But there will always be finger-waggers to tell people that they don’t know what’s good for them.

“I don’t see carols as sacred music. Unless you’re in a Jewish school, you’re going to be exposed to them everywhere. We don’t want to offend Christians, and wouldn’t dream of parodying Easter stuff, or even proper hymns. There’s a sense that these are more like folk songs.”

Well, if so, they are culturally Christian folk-songs, sung at and for a Christian festival, the birth of Jesus Christ, whom that same religious and folk tradition held Jews to have rejected and been dispossessed and exiled as a result.

That same Jesus of whom some of those revised carols speak or refer to.

There are secular British folk-songs, English, Irish, Scots, Welsh etc. Green-sleaves, for instance, Danny Boy or Red is the Rose.

There are also Hanuka songs.

re. ‘brave’, I do not think recapitulating traditional Christian anti-Judaism as anti-Zionism is a difficult thing to do. It is a very easy thing to do: one is simply revamping a traditional anti-Jewish format and, instead of applying to the state of Jews that existed before Israel was born i.e. in a diaspora and perceived exile, to Jews in a restored state of Israel.

All that has changed is the situation of the Jewish target. Worse, the format recapitulates the traditional theme of Jews as crucifiers of Christ, this time as Israeli crucifiers of Palestinians.

It is not a hard thing to do, from a traditional Christian point of view: it is the easiest thing in the world.

The thing that gets me about this, is not only are they being allowed to trivialise and mock a Christian festival – in a church! – but they are trivialising and mocking the very issues they claim to care about. Really, you couldn’t make it up.

Anyone in NY over Xmas and looking for a different musical celebration of the season:
http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.showDetails&Band_Show_ID=38523820&friendid=14225079

I understand some observations about how some Christians may still despise Jews and its also true that Christians can be antisemites (but so can any non-Jew – even some kapo Jews!).

I just want to underline my experience that in the USA there is a great affinity between Jews and Christians with many Christians almost viewing a friendship with Jews as some mandated religious imperative. Yes, there are also Christians who are anti-Jewish.

My guess is that the USA is much stronger on the Anti-Terror front and, frankly, USA media doesn’t back away from talking about Islamic/Muslim Terrorist. Hence, many people see Jews and Israelis as targets of that same terrorism.

Imagine my shock at listening to GCN radio last night, a station who carries a lot of Alex Jones rants and anti-Israel stuff to listen to a program all about how Israel must be protected because its God’s will and notice how the USA suffers some disaster every time it tries to negotiate away Israeli rights in some peace deal – as sure sign that God supports Israel – was the implication.

So, the links betwen Christians and Jews can be strong, weak, indifferent and hostile. But what I do know is that Jews (except the Orthodox Fundamntalists) respect Christianity and would respect Islam if only people would stop using Islam to justify killing Jews.

Perhaps USA Christian/Jewish affinity is a joint comfort against Islam.

(Sorry to harp on but Religion has always been my fascination – even though I’m not the slightest bit religious)

If the Reverend Charles Hedley is real (and not a spoof), then I’m not surprised that the Church of England is disappearing up its own arse.

Perhaps if you do want to be ‘brave’ and ‘controversial’, Mr Hedley, you might want to schedule an event where homosexuals sing rewritten carols mocking the blatant bigotry which characterises much of the CofE when it comes to LGB relations. Let’s see how far that gets you with your boss in Canterbury.

Look, what this is really all about is that Deborah Fink is a singing teacher and a performer. Her repertoire of Jewish songs is probably low, and she finds her greatest freedom of expression in mainstream Christian British culture. Fine. She is aggreived by Israeli Jewish treatment of Palestinian Christians and Muslims but

a) cannot contextualise or frame it to herself in anyway other than an absolute cultural Christian one i.e. as Jews as effective crucifiers of the Palestinian Christian and Muslim national Christ and

b) is so alienated from her Jewish roots that she cannot find anything that presents justice for the Israeli Jewish side at all.

Good versus evil. That’s it.

Her view is essentially a cuturally Christian derived Manichaean one.

Zhkarya – I’ve great respect for you, and agree with a large proportion of what you are saying here, but as to whether Ms Fink’s outlook is Manichaean or not (and I do not know of her sufficiently to say: although it is a criticism I have often felt inclined to make of some prolific posters here, in response to numerous topics) – of course Manichaenism has long been regarded by the christian church as a heresy (and a very major one at that: by effectively denying the triumph of God and good): and not one that is “culturally Christian derived” at all: but rather originating from gnosticism – and other explicitly anti-Christian (even if masquerading not as such) viewpoints

Rev. Hedley asks: “Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?”

You mean they’re exposing themselves to danger? What danger, exactly?

Sackcloth

Thank you, I’ll suggest it to our LGT Group.

Rowan Williams is not my ‘boss’ by the way. I’m pleased to say that the Church of England is a broad church and Ministers have the freedom to perform their Ministries as they feel most appropriate.

The authentic note of the puritan. Personally, I think drinking and eating, buying presents for my kids, dancing and singing to excess is plenty important and meaningful enough.

Actually, I was not being a puritan. I said a bit more gentle religion and goodwill at Christmas. If Christmas is just about eating and drinking and getting together with families, some folk may feel a bit left out, especially if its all judged on how much we can eat and drink, and what presents we can give to our kids (i.e. commercialisation and consumerism).

I was merely suggesting the may be other messages involved. I think its partly because of excessive consumerism that some people (myself included at times) feel lonely at Christmas.

Maven,

“I just want to underline my experience that in the USA there is a great affinity between Jews and Christians with many Christians almost viewing a friendship with Jews as some mandated religious imperative. Yes, there are also Christians who are anti-Jewish.”

The US is different. US Christian culture largely sprang from Protestant and non-conformist groups that acquired a re-invigorated sense of Christianity’s Jewish roots through translation of the scriptures into the vernacular during the Reformation. It is more how Holland was, or England after the civil war, under Cromwell.

It was also these groups that were not only most friendly to Jews generally, but most favourable to reversing the traditional Christian view that Jews merited an eternal exile for their rejection of Christ. Sympathy with Jews entailed also a sense of justice for Jews.

Even US Catholicism was immensely influenced by this tendency, which explains many pro-Israel US Catholics friendly with their Jewish neighbours.

Would this have been the case if most Jews who became Israeli had become American instead? 10 or 12 000 000 Jews in the US instead of 5 000 000? A matter for speculation. Eastern Europe where most Jews lived was the most antisemitic region of the world.

Jews often faired better where they were fewer in numbers.

But, whereas Europe once contained 80% of world Jewry, now it contains only 11%. And there are many more Muslims. The face of European culture is changing. The US is now the effective inheritor of the title of Christendom.

Recessions are bad things, but perhaps with a little less spending, we can work out what is actually important and meaningful.

I hate to sound all Thought for the Day-ish, but I was thinking the same thing last night.

BY THE WAY…

The person posting as the Rev Hedley is NOT the genuine article.

Whoever it is, please stop it.

Message for the “Alternative Lessons and Carols”
at St James’s Church, Piccadilly.
26th November, 2008
In the run up to Christmas, Christians are reminded of the message of the angels of “Peace on earth and goodwill..” to look to a world where Christians, Jews, Muslims – indeed people of all faiths – can live together in peace and with goodwill. The linking of these two elements [of peace and goodwill] challenge us all.
I do understand the need for security for Israel and whilst I understand some of the reasons why the barrier came to be constructed, it is not enough to be complacent about it or to draw a veil over its effects on others. Barriers, by their nature, divide and separate. For me this is not “anti-Israeli” and I am not anti Israel, neither is it anti-Palestinian, but for there to be peace, there is a need for reconciliation. For reconciliation, there is a need to learn about how actions on both sides are received. The uncovering of reality is an important – though sometimes painful – necessity.
One month before Christmas, we are reminded of some realities of Bethlehem now. Judging by the mail I have received, these reworked songs certainly seem to be controversial and for me, as a Christian, there is the added irony that a Jewish group should wish to sing carols. But if its intention is to draw our minds to Bethlehem as it is now, then it is certainly effective and also certainly not irreligious. My invitation is – so to speak – to look over the divide which is separating the different communities. For Israeli and Palestinian to live together, reconciliation demands that even the most emotive realities are acknowledged. Who better than Jews to question what is going on? May God bless you. And may that holy land which is so close to the hearts of so many people, have Shalom – Salaam – the peace which is harmony and completeness and reconciliation and well-being.

The Revd Dr Charles Hedley.

Just when I thought I had no ghast left, this comes along. Are the quoted carols real? Is that really the Reverend Charles?

If yes to both, let me ask Charles if he would consider pampered, affluent blacks to be brave if they started going all Hey Mammy to protest actions of Liberia. Plus, the link he gave requires registration.

I see little Debbie Fink still sounds like Irena Papas from the infinity song.

Rev.Charles Hedley. “Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?

No. How can it be brave to incite against people who are non-violent and only ever resort to the power of the argument?

Now for a demonstration of real bravery may I suggest that you organise an event in your church to highlight some of the many disgusting barbaric Muslim practises such as stoning “adulterers”, “honour killings”, forced marriages, public hangings of under-age rape victims and gays, amputations as punishment etc. etc.? You could give a nice sermon suggesting that Muslims “turn the other cheek”.
I think we can wait a long time!!

As for any future “statement” ie. mealy- mouthed apology from you—-don’t bother, for it will be seen for what it truly is.

Incidentally, as anyone who has ever come across Fink et al. in any of their many hate-fuelled meetings, will know that their real problem is not with Israel but with themselves.

Ah, he’s mock tudor. Okay, anyone who thinks these attention seekers are brave, what about Liberia?

Please stop posting as Rev Hedley, whoever it is!

This does NOT help, and is NOT fair to Hedley or to anybody else.

Venichka,

I use ‘Manichaean’ as a metaphor: the division of the elements of a situation into good versus evil, nothing more. And that, arguably, is a Persian, Zoroastrian division that Christianity inherited and expanded from certain sects of Judaism. And, indeed, arguably, through the indirect influence of certain sects like the the Manichaeans, even through the person of Augustine himself, a former Manichaean who acquired his professorship of rhetoric at Milan through Manichaean intervention and influence, and who renounced his former Manichaean beliefs, as you say, as heresy.

Maybe unfair to him, David, but definitely instructive that it’s become difficult to spot the spoof.

“Judging by the mail I have received, these reworked songs certainly seem to be controversial and for me, as a Christian, there is the added irony that a Jewish group should wish to sing carols.”

How is that ‘ironic’? Do you know what ‘irony’ means? ‘Irony’ means when something is signified other than, or opposite to, that intended.

E.g. Jews sing Christian songs to critique their fellow Jews claim to do so not AS CHRISTIANS rather AS JEWS, and to be BRAVELY OPPOSING THE MAINSTREAM yet, in fact, are behaving exactly as Jews who converted to mainsteam Christian culture or Christianity in the past and used that platform to critique their fellow Jews for being Jews, before the Jewish state of Israel existed, AS TRUE, FULFILLED, SPIRITUAL ISRAEL/JEWS.

It is also ironic that such Jews sing Christian songs to delegitimise Jewish return and restoration, yet highlight the injustice of Palestinian Christian and Muslim restoration, when that same Christian song/folk tradition has held dispossession to be Jews’ entirely just and deserved fate for their rejection of a Christ whose innocence and mercy that same folk-song tradition stresses above all else.

“But if its intention is to draw our minds to Bethlehem as it is now, then it is certainly effective and also certainly not irreligious.”

Sure, but why not sing about the fact that Palestinian Christians and Muslims have ab initio sought to thwart any large scale Jewish return to the land, and seek to undermine or delegitimise it even now, by deed or word.

In short, where is justice, the application of the same, Christian or other, criteria of mercy and understanding to both parties?

“For Israeli and Palestinian to live together, reconciliation demands that even the most emotive realities are acknowledged. Who better than Jews to question what is going on?”

Who better than Palestinian and other Christians and Muslims?

All

The 12:10 post is a genuine statement even if it may not have been posted by the guy himself. I received it too.

Dear xxx
Please find attached message from The Revd Charles Hedley.
Kind regards,
David
David Hamilton-Peters
Parish Secretary
St James’s Church
197 Piccadilly
London
W1J 9LL
Tel: 020 7734 4511
http://www.st-james-piccadilly.org
Click the link to join our all-new Discussion Forum!

I should have said

“How is that ‘ironic’? Do you know what ‘irony’ means? ‘Irony’ means when something is signified other than, or opposite to, that EXPLICITLY SAID, though it can be other than that intended too. One is intended irony, the other unintended i.e. only in mind of the perceiver.

I don’t know if anybody else noticed but Deborah Fink reduces Judaism to “disagreement”. Jews generally disagree, but that is not what Judaism is. She is not “more Jewish” because she disagrees. Muslims and Christians also disagree.
It seems to be a very shallow view of Judaism.

To complete the thought.

It seems that people like Fink can only say that Judaism is about “justice” or “peace” (I very much doubt she has even read Isaiah in full).But what is justice in Jewish terms? How do you pursue justice in Jewish ways? Those things are always absent from the shallow thought of asajews.

Fink was dominated by her mother in childhood. In family conversations she was not allowed to criticise Israel.

As with all self-haters — there are psychological roots.

The only religions I can think of that are any good at dealing with disagreements between religions are:

- Quakerism; and

- Sikhism

That’s Sikhism in theory – not sure how much of it works in practice. Quakers, by contrast, do their best, but end up doing stupid things like renting their building out to Hizb ut Tahrir.

The bottom line is this: by choosing the format of Christmas carols, JBIG has chosen

a) to alienate most Jews

b) to ingratiate themselves, for better or worse, with wider culturally Christian British society.

This they are entitled to do, but to claim to do so AS JEWS rather than AS CHRISTIANS is not only not ‘ironic’, in the intended sense, it is baloney.

I apologise for writing so much: I should really be doing something else.

The JBIG poster portrays the three magi trying to reach Jesus in Bethlehem.

http://www.st-james-piccadilly.org/

That is not a ‘folk’ image, at least, if it is, it is no less a culturally Christian religious one as well. The person who designed that poster is subscribing to the gospel birth narratives of Matthew and Luke. How is that not a Christian thing to do?

Again, JBIG are entitled to do so. But, again, to claim to so as Jews rather than as Christians is, again, baloney.

And, again, it is genuinely ironic that Deborah Maccoby, the daughter of Haim Maccoby, should be doing this as well.

Zkharya,

I think you summed it up nicely.

it is fairly clear by now that Deb Fink and Co are not serious people and these events are part of some deep seated physiological/identity issues that they have.

I don’t know if anybody else noticed but Deborah Fink reduces Judaism to “disagreement. Fabian, that was exactly my point in posting that quote. When you get film actors etc who say they have no links with their Jewishness but insist they are Jewish because of a talmudic love of argument, I say, whatever. When Fink does it is more toxic.

So Revd Charles Hedley wants to “bridge the divide between the communities” by propagating an extremist polemic of hate in his church. At least we now know where this christian minister stands and the level of debasement which this part of the CofE has now reached.

Zharya

I think that image is a War on Want Christmas card

WoW are supporting the event tonight

Zkharya

sorry – omitted the k

Quakers, by contrast, do their best, but end up doing stupid things like renting their building out to Hizb ut Tahrir.

Distinct from the when the N.F. tried to trick their way in, which was the result of deliberate mis-information given over the ‘phone.

Jeremy, perhaps it is, originally. But JBIG is writ large across the top.

Again, all this is ironic given that Fink, Maccoby et al. criticised Atzmon for using traditional Christian anti-Jewish imagery to describe Israel and Zionism.

Although, it is not that Fink et al. are self-regarding Jews (T.M. David Toube 2008) who consider themselves to the arbiters of Jewishness? Atzmon genuinely does come across as an antisemitic Jew.

War on Want have a Campaigns page.
It sets out six campaigns.

Only one is aimed at a specific country.
Can anyone guess?

self-regarding Jews (T.M.) I first began using that term a couple of years earlier, having read it in an essay by someone perhaps Phyllis Chessler- haven’t time to hunt down the reference.

Say it ain’t so, Ami! Say it was David’s idea!

I thought it was Anthony Julius.

I think Anthony Julius called them self-infatuated Jews.

I’m more interested in their choice of location for this event. It reveals much about the true target audience for their behaviour. They are not in the business of changing Jewish minds, of that we can be sure.

Seriously, though: at least the Vicar of Putney has become a proper Anglican, all hand wringy and cassocky. I have a couple of friends who were active members of his congregation and he was apparently absolutely super as a vicar.

What I can’t be doing with are these sort of “Yiddishkeit” Christians. If you want Yiddishkeit, you should be a Jew. Christianity has its own attractions, and it doesn’t do to confuse them – stylistically – with another religion.

Ditto Communists.

See you all at the church 7 til 730

Sorry – I’ll be in shul

Only one is aimed at a specific country.
Can anyone guess?

Given that Mr Galloway used to work for them it’s easy to guess.

But – I really don’t see anything wrong with that. Clicking straight through to the nine “past campaigns” they list on a linked page, two of them are aimed at specific countries.

Obviously there is nothing wrong with running specific as well as general campaigns. Indeed a campaign group that did not run specific campaigns would almost certainly be negligient of its intentions.

I don’t like this “self-hating or self-regarding [insert name of ethnic group]” terminology: it strikes me, used as a term of abuse, being very close in spirit to the “Uncle Tom” smear (which I wouldn’t regard as racist either)

I’m more interested in their choice of location for this event. It reveals much about the true target audience for their behaviour.

Yes, idiotic liberals who have a similar relationship to the mainstream Christian community (like St James’s Church itself: honestly go and look at their noticeboards to see the sort of profoundly non- and anti-Christian groups that they play host to on a regular basis: and don’t get me on to how they travesty William Blake) that Ms Fink has to the mainstream Jewish community.

Essentially they are talking to their own kind. The fact that they are of a different religious group (or ethnicities) is neither here nor there.

They are not trying to persuade anyone. They are preaching to the converted.

“I don’t like this “self-hating or self-regarding [insert name of ethnic group]” terminology: it strikes me, used as a term of abuse, being very close in spirit to the “Uncle Tom” smear (which I wouldn’t regard as racist either)”

Well, I kinda would like to agree. But it isn’t precisely the same thing.

“Uncle Tom” or “House Negro” plays on the black legacy of slavery. Therefore its Jewish equivalent would be (I think) the “Kapo” slur (which has been used above).

Self hating/regarding does, I think, really capture something that goes on within all cultural minorities a little bit, but particularly Jews, for some reason.

There really are some people who become completely fixated by their own cultural identity, in a way which is – I think – incredibly unhealthy. It is a product, in part, of living in a social climate that does fixate on what is different about you. Inevitably, you internalise the hatred, or suspicion, or curiousity about you, and it becomes part of your identity.

You then reflect that back. How you mirror those attitudes back, may vary wildly.

You might, for example, become a caricature of your cultural ‘type’ – I think we all know Jews, or Gays who basically camp it up all the time. It can be a little wearing.

Or having had a fair amount of hatred aimed at you, another reaction is to want to differentiate yourself from the “bad Jews” who bring shame on you, and who you hold to be responsible for others hatred of you.

A third reaction is that you become a racist. A surprisingly large proportion of those involved in the most virulent of anti-semitism are Jewish. Atzmon is just one example. There’s also the guy who led the US Nazi party through Skokie – Frank Collin – was Jewish. I’ve also heard it said that Wilhelm Marr – who invented the term anti-semitism, and described himself as an anti-semite – was half Jewish. He married three women, of whom two were Jewish, and one was half Jewish.

I think “self-hating” and “self-regarding” are pretty apt phrases for some of these people.

This is a social pathology.

Given that Mr Galloway used to work for them it’s easy to guess.

Actually, when he was there it tended to have a bit more focus on Africa.
He screwed Eritreans and Ethiopans to pay for his screwing.

Well, with someone as extreme as Atzmon or Marr, fair enough. We can agree that is pathological.

But applied more willy-nilly (as the term seems to be being applied HERE) – the use of such terms seems like a form of collective emotional blackmail, which is obnoxious and unwarranted.

(I’ve seen that sort of thing – well, in my own family, in the context of the West of Scotland, particularly: relatives completely disowned and abandoned because they – heaven forbid – dared to marry out of the oppressed and hated religious-ethnic group they were born into, or because they changed their religion, or abandoned all religion, or adopted political causes not favoured by the majority of people within the group to which they were born: and I have to say, in all circumstances, and all cases, this kind of tribal group pressure is absolutely unacceptable.

I think Deborah Fink may be mad – her judgement is definitely lacking: but the kind of abuse that she receives on a regular basis at HP strikes me as utterly dispicable, and, in fact, far worse, in essence, purpose and spirit than anything that she herself says or does.

Which isn’t to say that I don’t understand or sympathise with the frustration that some Jews might feel towards the likes of Fink. Where the boundary is crossed between what is acceptable and unacceptable is, I think, when the sense of disagreement, even disgust, becomes “betrayal” – as though, by dint of some facet of her birth she owned other people a loyalty she does not.

And we (I hate the expression “my people” – but, well, you know I mean) have the likes of Claire Short or George Galloway (or Cherie Blair: or, indeed,for that matter, nowadays, Tony Blair) to look at in a similar way.

But I quite agree that identity politics – such a fundamental part of the “new left” – are poison.

But still, in regard to this thing, it is principally St James Church Piccadilly that I hold in contempt for hosting it. Surely this sort of thing would be more at home in a theatre, as some kind of pantomime.

Venichka

We need the hire fee

TBH, I doubt it: that is one church that (given its location next to Piccadilly Circus) is always hiring itself out, erm, dare I say like a prostitute, to all manner of dubious groups, quite apart from actually hosting a market of tourist tack in its grounds. I think some expression about moneychangers springs to mind…

“but the kind of abuse that she receives on a regular basis at HP strikes me as utterly dispicable”

Oh, I agree.

I think she’s hugely silly, but she does very little harm, and has brought a lot of happiness into my life.

If you ever doubt the validity of the term “self-hating Jew” just read the chapter titled “Judaism” on Otto Weininger’s “Sex and Character”. You will never doubt again that such a thing exists.
And yes, Otto was Jewish. Converted to Christianity. Killed himself in disgust that he was still Jewish inside.
http://www.theabsolute.net/ottow/schareng.pdf

After you read it, you will agree that the concepto of a self-hating Jew has nothing in common with the idea of a “house negro”.
I see that someone intentially and maliciously conflated the two in another thread.

Don’t you agree that the Jews who are organising this carol concert are very brave?

I think some of the people responding to this question don’t realize that it is satirical. (Note “NOT the Revd Charles Hedley”)

Fabian: thanks, I started reading that – but after a few pages couldn’t go on. What a deeply creepy, horrible, fucked up, man.

Merriem-Webster says it all

Pronunciation: \ˈfiŋk\
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1903

1 : one who is disapproved of or is held in contempt
2 : strikebreaker
3 : informer

JBIG can do as they please. But to claim to be acting as Jews, but not as Christians, is again, for the third time, baloney.

Whether it is self-hating, self-regarding, who knows. It is definitely confused. And that is not to say that Jews cannot become Christians, or that they may practise, as they see it, a form of Judaism with their Christianity, or vice versa. Again, folks can do pretty much as they please, in my view.

But if you sing Christmas carols, you use Christian language and imagery, refer to or recapitulate key Christian events, and use them in such a fashion as to set yourself against, say, the largest or second largest Jewish community in the world, you are acting, in some sense, as a cultural, ethical or ideological Christian, and you are identifying yourself (I cannot see in any sense other than deliberately) as such, over and against the majority of your fellow Jews, and with the ‘folk’ Christian culture of your state.

Isn’t ironic Fink spoke of British Christian ‘volk’ songs?

Deborah is a tragic figure, like Rahel Vernhagen.

This is highly objectionable to me for a variety of reasons.

The organisers don’t seem to realise that the problemes with Bethlehem, and in particular the beleaguered Christian community have very little to do with Israel or the occupation and a great deal to do with mistreatment and discrimination at the hands of Islamists.

In just the past ten years it is estimated that more than 2,5 million Christians have fled the Mid-east

Christians all across the region have been leaving in droves, whether it be those in Syria, in Egypt, in Jordan or in Iraq. They are generally better educated and much better off than their Arabo/Muslim co-citizens, and so are the objects of a lot of jealousy, a jealousy that, at times, turns murderous.

And those Middle Eastern Christians with their skills, talents and abilities are all that is left standing between a minimum of social order and utter, Somalia-like chaos.

Ms Fink’s indignation is completely misplaced, and it risks worsening the situation for those she claims to be helping.

That’s a good analogy Zkharya

Except Deborah inflicts her inner turmoil on others more than RV did (I think)

Jews – many Jews – can basically pass as something other than Jewish; much as half Indians or light skinned black people in the 1950s passed themselves off as Southern Europeans. There is a huge amount of pressure for Jews to do this.

Basically, Jews in the West are lucky enough to live in societies that are broadly liberal democracies, and pluralist ones at that. Most of them aren’t particularly religious. Therefore, Jews aren’t the only minority in town, and aren’t generally subject to the sort of inescapable religious hatred that comes from being the ‘bad guys’ in two major world religions.

Nevertheless, there is still a huge focus on Jews and Jewishness. Ironically, the uncomfortably intense spotlight shone on Muslims as a result of the wave of jihadist terrorism, hasn’t in any sense taken the heat off Jews. Quite the opposite.

The Jewish story is a story of survival: the Golden Thread passed down from generation to generation.

But that’s not true. The real Jewish story is the story of hiding, and denying, and escaping. There are – and have been throughout history – HUGE numbers of Jews who have just thought

“Fuck this, for a game of soldiers”

and opted out of being Jewish.

I know loads of people who have done this, or one of whose parents or grandparents did just this. A LOT of Jews did this after the Holocaust. Simon Cowell’s grandparents, for example, apparently.

I mean, if you could get away from it, why wouldn’t you? Why would you bequeath this to your children?

This is what has happened for centuries.

‘I’m pleased to say that the Church of England is a broad church and Ministers have the freedom to perform their Ministries as they feel most appropriate.’

Translation: We’re all things to all men. We’ll pander to ‘anti-Zionists’ because that’s less controversial than actually deciding whether gay men should be bishops or not.

If you’re looking for principles, you won’t find them in the CofE. Once known as the Tory Party at Prayer, now just known as a bunch of hypocritical, useless wankers.

O Little Town of Bethlehem becomes: “O little town of Bethlehem/How still we see thee lie!/A wall is laid where tourists stayed/ And people can’t go by.

The Tourism Ministry reported on Sunday that according to information gathered by the Civil Administration in the West Bank, some 1,123,000 tourists visited the Palestinian towns of Bethlehem and Jericho in the first nine months of 2008. This astonishing figure represents a 96.5% increase in the number of visitors to Bethlehem and a 42.3% rise in the number of tourists to Jericho, compared to the same period last year. Sources in the Tourism Ministry and the Civil Administration attribute the rise to the significant improvement in the security situation in the area in the last two years. The easing of movement restrictions on the local population and tourists crossing from Israel to the Palestinian Authority has also contributed to the increase in numbers.

I went there earlier this year. It took us 7 minutes to get through the security barrier, with a group of arab workers.

David T, I’m not sure if you describe the “Jew as Talisman/Trophy”

My experience is that some non-Jews regard a professional Jews as some Talisman or Status Symbol – and so nod an acceptance of Jews.

The well-known example is “I’ve got a Jewish Lawyer/Accountant” where you would think that the word “Jewish” was superfluous, but no. It seems to confer some magical advantageous property to the possessor.

Then there is the “met the most wonderful person who shaped my early life, blah…. blah…….. He.She was Jewish” in the sense that its a punchline you didn’t expect and in a sense its superfluous to the story.

Its fascinating to me that somehow Jews and Jewishness seems to impart some magical quality and a noteworthy mention. (Another example is Ha Aretz trumpeting that 45 members of the new congress are Jewish). 46 when Obama converst next year!

Maven, I saw the War on Want card and wrote a concise reponse to it and asked all my friends not to contribute to War on Want.

And I saw the following on the church’s page:

To the tune of “Here we come a-wassailing”

Here you come a-slandering
Pretending Christmas cheer
But you are Israel-haters
From truth and facts you veer:

Hurt and lies come from you
For to feed your hatred too
God forgive you for spreading distortions and lies
May He help you to see the honest way

You are not Christian people who live in Christian ways
For if you were to be so we’d not have seen this day

Hurt and pain is brought to them
Christians in Bethlehem;
You ignore it and spread your infamy and lies
May God help you and make you more wise

I’ve just noticed and that Pax CHristi is in on this and that its rep. for this event is none other thna Bruce Kent, a guy who was booted from the priesthood just like the UN guy who is calling Isarael an apartheid state.

Gee! I’m starting to see a pattern.

In the past I’ve met two or three Jews with archetypal Welsh names Evans etc, as their grandparents changed surnames – fearing a Nazi invasion, and thinking they could most easily pass as Celts.
Does anyone know whether this was common?

Hugely common.

The funny thing is, Bruce Kent and Paul Johnson were classmates at Stonyhurst.

Kent was the establishment figure
Johnson was the your socialist radical

“David T, I’m not sure if you describe the “Jew as Talisman/Trophy””

Yes, also known as the “My Wonderful Gay Friend” syndrome.

This might be a bit off topic but….

Zykharya said:”

If they sing carols, they are protected by mainstream, Christian culture. It would have been braver, I think, to sing Hanuka songs.”

I have quite a few converts from Christianity to various branches and types of Judaism amongst my friends. What I’ve noticed is that once people step outside of the Christian (and there is still quite a lot of Christian cultural influences and underpinning to UK society) mainstream culture they are brought to the realisation that now they are now part of a minority that has had a troubled relationship with Christianity in the past because of Christian oppression of Jews over millenia.

Although they may have studied Jew hatred on an academic level it does hit people hard when they first get it in real life. It could be getting the dirty look or vile comments for wearing a Kippah or buying the JC, or having stones thrown at them on the journey to shul or having friends make snide jokes about Jews and Judaism or if they are socialists finding that their political home is closed to them unless they stand up and denounce Israel

Fink et al are not being brave in adapting Xmas carols for this protest but they are just buying into the assimilation and deracination game that Christians have forced Jews to play for far too many years.

These protesters are just availing themselves of the protection of the Christian mainstream.

It does take more bravery to sing Chanukka songs in public than Christian songs especially in the current political situation with the worrying growth of Left antisemitism and the fact that Islamists are allowed to peddle their hatred seemingly without sanction.

All extremism is dangerous what ever religion or culture it comes from. I have no truck with none of them whether they be the ‘Pope = AntiChrist’ Christian nutters, nor the wild west thugs of the Hebron settlers nor the Islamist theocrats.

Call me a wooly old liberal if you like but I’m a great believer in moderation in all things including religion and politics.

My five minute effort at revisionist Christian carol:

(to the tune of Away in a Manger):

Away and in danger , no rest for her soul,
Awandered the Jewess, her baby in shawl.
Acast from her land, in wrath for her sin,
Rejecting the saviour, she’d crucified him.

It burned like the sun, on land and on sea,
Her exile the proof of God’s trinity.
But then came the day, his mercy prevailed,
Restored to her land, now Christians bewailed.

Oh how most unhappy that Christians forbade
Jews return to the land they did invade.
How most unhappy they sought to keep out
Those who did fight to find home and redoubt.

That’s irony, baby.

Ami – “..We wait for Rowan Williams to pronounce on the matter; meanwhile according to the ES the previous one, Lord Carey, has criticised the decision to go ahead with the service as “unhelpful”.”

Are you kidding, Ami? What on earth is there to wait for? Remember this dunderhead believes that sharia law is inevitable here so we may as well do the equivalent of lie back and think of England. Given that Williams is about as much use to decent Christians as an ashtray on a motorbike, he couldn’t pronounce with authority on anything other than what colour socks he intends to wear tomorrow and I have my doubts as to whether he could do that.

Lord Carey is a little more human if the following are anything to go by:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1511788/Carey-ashamed-by-Synod-decision-on-Israel-investments.html

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/art.php?aid=20541

Hi Venichka, my barb wasn’t directed at you, although you expressed doubts regardign whether the category of self-hating Jew was similar to Uncle Tom. No, there was some troll in another thread who attacked HP for decrying the far left and Islamist use of Uncle Tom in Obama’s case while holding that there is something as a self-hating Jew. A false analogy.

I hope at least you have read until the part where poor Otto says that the British (or just the English, don’t remember exactly) will never make good music.

I am so upset that I am too busy to join in the party. Keep up the good work everyone and spare a thought for my shins this Christmas time.

I am so upset that I am too busy to join in the party. Keep up the good work everyone and spare a thought for my shins this Christmas time.

Mikey,

You need to research some vitamins and minerals for that Restless Leg Syndrome!

JBIG (Jews for Buying Israeli Goods) staged a demo at the entrance to the church in Piccadilly before the event. They had Israeli flags and gave out leaflets for the Israeli Street Market (14-16 Dec, 10.30-5, outside Waitrose, London NW11- Be there!). Not many of the audience to the sham carol service were interested but plenty of pasers-by were. The church was reportedly only half full with no more than 100 people. A man (Philip) came all the way from Wales with placards – just to demonstrate against the sham service. One placard said “They rewrite carols – it will be history next”. There was a delightful kilted gentleman from the Scottish PSC there, stewarding in front of the church and touting for business on the pavement next to the counter demonstarters. (He had strange ideas about Zionists during the Third Reich). The counter demonstarters deterred at least five people from buying tickets and going in (by disabusing them of the idea that it was a normal) carol service.

“and opted out of being Jewish.

I know loads of people who have done this, or one of whose parents or grandparents did just this. A LOT of Jews did this after the Holocaust. Simon Cowell’s grandparents, for example, apparently.

I mean, if you could get away from it, why wouldn’t you? Why would you bequeath this to your children?

This is what has happened for centuries.”

But for every Jew who opted out, most cleaved to their identity and heritage despite the often barbaric pressures against them.

I attended the pro Israel demo. It was possible to engage with some of the “well meaning” types who admitted they didn’t know much about the history, but the man from the Scottish PSC was a closed system of sneers and spite. He gestured to the Welsh Christian (who told me there were many Christian supporters of Israel in Wales) and his poster about rewriting Carols, and sneered: Well he’s a Protestant and they rewrote the bible.” OK, now I know where you are coming from, I commented. Reinforced when he sneered: I suppose you didn’t condemn the British for occupying Northern Ireland either. He did make this strange remark that The British had a campaign to boycott Nazi goods, but the Zionists opposed the boycott.

Then there was a lovely couple, an elderly Holocaust survivor and his wife who introduced herself to me as having been born of a Lebanese mother in pre Israel Palestine, who had walked out of the event as they thought it was going to be a debate about the boycott had come prepared to debate, and were disgusted to find it was the one sided carols.

I don’t agree with your analysis Venichka- the emotional blackmail comes from these self regarding Jews – they claim to have the monopoly on Jewish values Jewish sensibility and sensitivity and look down on the rest of us as traitors to this “real” Jewishness. I will continue to use the term, rather than self hating.

“Well he’s a Protestant and they rewrote the bible.”

What an extraordinary statement. As a Catholic, he must regard the Latin Vulgate as more authoritative than a translation of the Hebrew Tanaach or the Greek New Testament. I’d be surprised if he could read the Latin, though.

And flaunting his kilt, as if to say, Being a Scots nationalist is the antithesis of being a Jewish nationalist. So, despite believing in the authority of the Vulgate, an anciently Catholic doctrine, he ignores the other anciently Catholic view that Jews are a nation dispossessed and in exile. Or at least, holds this to be the proper lot for Jews, but not Palestinian Christians (mostly Catholic) or Muslims.

They don’t half pick and choose, don’t they?

Lbnaz: Thanks for linking to the story about the great increase of tourists that have visited Bethlehem and Jericho this year due to the improved security situation. This news should get the widest circulation possible. It really knocks out all the nonsense about a so-called Apartheid Wall etec., that those useful fools, to use Lenin’s term, are caroling about.

David T: “and opted out of being Jewish”
Yossi K: “But for every Jew who opted out, most cleaved to their identity and heritage despite the often barbaric pressures against them.”

As this American Jew in Pakistan proudly did in early 2002:

“My name is Daniel Pearl.
I am a Jewish-American from 3545 Sierra Canyon Road in Ecino, California, USA.
On my father’s side I come from a family of Zionists.
My family follows Judaism and has made numerous trips to Israel.
In the town of Bnei Brek in Israel there is a street named Chaim Pearl Street after my great-grandfather who was one of the founders of the town.
My father is Jewish,
My mother is Jewish,
I am Jewish.”

How very touching it was to see those brave Jewish people stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Christians tonight in Church, united in their love for God and Jesus Christ. It reminded me so very much of the time on Christmas Day 1914 when the German and British soldiers ceased their hostilities and famously played football with each other in no man’s land. I pray that our Church can be a metaphor for peace in the Holy Land, that Israelis and Palestinians can reach out in love across the Wall this Christmas. Amen and happy Christmas to Jewish people everywhere.

“How very touching it was to see those brave Jewish people stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Christians tonight in Church, united in their love for God and Jesus Christ.”

So, no room for Israeli Jewish Jews or Palestinian Muslims, then: the former because they do not revere Jesus, the latter because their Jesus is very different from the Christian Jesus Christ since, for one thing, he is a prophet who would have endorsed, in Muslim eyes, Sharia law, and the stoning of adulteresses.

It was veeery Tablet. Bruce Kent was there plus a few protesters outside. This was one of the carols:

O little town of Bethlehem
How still we see thee lie!
A wall is laid where tourists strayed
And people can’t go by
And in they dark streets shineth
No cheerful Christmas light
The hate and fears of eight sad years
Are met in thee tonight

How silently, how silently
The world regards it all
As now thy heart is torn apart
By Israel’s ghetto wall
They terrorise a people
A war-crime and a sin
Their winding “fence” can make no sense
Revenge can still get in

(with descant)
O ye who now rule Bethelehem
Cast down the iron cage
The walls of hate that separate
And harden and enrage
The land grab and apartheid
This violence must cease
If there’s to be a land that’s free
A Bethlehem at peace

Damian Thompson was unimpressed. But as I said, it was very Tablet.

I have formed a new committee for conscientious Jewish activists. It’s called “Kikes Against Political Oppression” or KAPO for short.

If you are Jewish and…

you voted for RESPECT, you are a Kapo
you believe the establishment of Israel was a Naqba, you are a Kapo
you turn a blind eye to Palestinian barbarity, you are a Kapo
you say Israel’s defense measures are oppression, you are a Kapo
you sing warbling antisemitic songs at demos, you are a Kapo
you put the interest of Arab imperialism before the Jews, you are a Kapo
you want to boycott Israel, you are a Kapo
you enjoy the work of Chomsky, Atzmon or Finklestein, you are a Kapo

Are you a Kapo? Then join Kikes Against Political Oppression

“How very touching it was to see those brave Jewish people stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Christians tonight in Church, united in their love for God and Jesus Christ.”

Presumably the same Jesus Christ who ethnically cleansed the Jews of Judea for rejecting him, setting Palestine, Palestinians and Palestinian Christians in their place.

A Jesus Christ, who, apparently, doesn’t think twice about ethnically cleansing Jews, but suddenly acquires a conscience when it comes to Palestinian Christians and Muslims seeking to keep Jews from returning.

Yeah, I thought so.

“How silently, how silently
The world regards it all
As now thy heart is torn apart
By Israel’s ghetto wall
They terrorise a people
A war-crime and a sin
Their winding “fence” can make no sense
Revenge can still get in”

How silently, how silently,
For nigh two thousand years,
The Christian and Islamic world,
Regarded Jewish tears.
For Christ and for Muha-a-a-amed,
Exile was Jews’ just fate:
For reje-e-e-e-ecting,
Both these di_vine pro-phets.

Maybe

“Exiles were Jews’ just fates”

Or,

“From g-d each pro-o-phet”

At Prep school in Sussex in the 70s – a rather austere, boys boarding school – we had a few Jewish boys. We called them ‘bacon snitchers’, on account of the fact that all of them ate bacon;the culinary highlight of an otherwise comestibly challenging week. Some tried to do so surreptitiously, not very successfully.

I confess to this day, it’s a term I involuntarily sub-vocalise when prompted by any associations with Jews.

Early conditioning is a powerful thing!

bacon snitchers!!!

Drollery.

But for every Jew who opted out, most cleaved to their identity and heritage despite the often barbaric pressures against them.

The thing is, you’re only identifying as Jewish, families that stayed Jewish. The ones that opted out, you can’t identify.

Lancing presumably

David T wrote above about Jews who opt out of being Jewish: Well, I want to opt into being Jewish, despite the efforts of a wise Jewish friend to dissuade me (he is part of the reason for my desired conversion). It’s not an ideolgical desire, but a sort of gradual osmosis via Jewish (German) poets I’ve spent my life reading plus the influence and example of my friend. It’s a long road and I don’t know whether I’ll make it, but I’m studying an authoritative site on conversion. Rosa Luxemburg wrote to a friend of hers saying, For God’s sake keep out of politics and stick to your poetry and music!! “Probably Moses will say, “For God’s sake keep out of religion and stick to ditto.”

I think it is probably a good thing for religions to churn members between each other. Why shouldn’t people switch backwards and forwards, as divine inspiration hits them?

Obviously, Judaism makes that rather difficult, which is another one of the problems the religion faces.

DavidT

“The thing is, you’re only identifying as Jewish, families that stayed Jewish. The ones that opted out, you can’t identify”

Er …. David, the fact that there are 12 million Jews in the world despite the Shoah and despite numerous previous attempts to extinguish Judaism suggests that YossiUK has a point and that your point by contrast is sheer pedantry.

The thing is, you’re only identifying as Jewish, families that stayed Jewish. The ones that opted out, you can’t identify.

.
Possibly at least partly why there are merely 15 million ‘bacon snitchers’ in the World!

Indeed, my mother recently did some genealogy research – both my folks are WASPs from Sidcup in Kent. It seems that on my fathers side – I have a great grandad that if I remember rightly, went by the name of Hesikia. So I probably have a good smattering of Jewish gens…which may go someway to explain my porcine predilection….gosh, I can already feel a BLT sandwich coming on for lunch!

Apparently one can get one’s DNA tested and find out how much of a bastard one really is, I do fancy doing this sometime.

Lancing presumably

Nope, but close, we played rugger against Lancing. My Prep school, near Horsham in St Leonard’s forest was rather more obscure and downmarket. It’s been closed a while, the property sold for residential development.

“Why shouldn’t people switch backwards and forwards, as divine inspiration hits them?”

Great idea – today’s Monday, I’m Muslim. Tomorrow I’ll be Hindu. Wednesday is Buddhism Day.

David, you’re an atheist. Fine. But don’t be daft.

“Apparently one can get one’s DNA tested and find out how much of a bastard one really is, I do fancy doing this sometime.”

I will soon. I met a political relative (I don’t know if that is the term in English, it means that we don’t share a blood line, he married in) here in Israel. He made aliah from the former Soviet Union and researched his DNA. Apparently he is a Khazar! :)
(inference from the fact that although his family came originally from Lithuania to the area of Crimea, his DNA is similar to that of Iranians). It is all very complicated.

David, you’re an atheist. Fine. But don’t be daft.

Yes, but a ‘bacon snitching’ atheist!

hahaha

email from Hedley:

Thank you for your email.
I should explain that this is not our Christmas carol service, but a special event which is sponsored by “Open Bethlehem” together with “Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods”. The purpose of it is to draw attention, just before Christmas, to the realities of Bethlehem now.
As Christians are preparing to celebrate the birth of Jesus and mark the message of the angels of “Peace on earth and goodwill..”, it is deeply disturbing to discover the conditions for many people in Bethlehem today. Whilst I understand some of the reasons why the barrier came to be built and the need for security, but it is not enough to be complacent about it or to draw a veil over its effects on others.
For there to be peace, there is a need for reconciliation. For reconciliation, there is a need to learn about how actions on both sides are received. The uncovering of reality is an important – though painful – necessity. This is certainly not anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (it is a Jewish group that is sponsoring the event).
Yours sincerely,
Charles Hedley

“This is certainly not anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (it is a Jewish group that is sponsoring the event).”

Fool. You think Jews can’t be antisemitic.

What is a moron like you doing in a position of social responsibility?

How much lower can the Church of England go?

Well done Deborah. You must be very proud. You allow morons like Hedley to claim the event was not AS because Jews organised it.

How much lower can the Church of England go?

They’re becoming more irrelevant and the prat that is the Archbishop of Canterbury – Rowan Williams is facilitating that nicely with various inane utterings.

It’s only a matter of time before the Anglican church is disestablished and the Bishops spiritual get booted out of the Lords, if even the Lords survive.

To my mind the biggest issue, is state funding of superstition centric schools.

“Hey guys, how can we prove that we’re members of mainstream Judaism fighting against a small clique of Zionist extremists for the soul of the Jewish people. Specifically we need to refute any claims that we actually have no real connection with or even basic knowledge of Jewish Civilization and that our views come, not from ‘the Jewish commitment to social justice’, but a secularised version of essentially Christian ethical system”.

“How about Christmas Carols”

Idiots.

Typical remarks outside the carols last night: The Welsh protestor to someone who introduced himself as a fellow Christian concerned about the Palestinians: “Who occupied Gaza before 1967?” Response: I don’t really know much about the history but that doesn’t stop me being concerned.
Welsh protestor to the thin lipped Scottish nationalist with a badge on his Scottish beret depicting the Palestinian flag and the logo of the Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign: Do you know what it says in the Hamas charter about the Jews? Scotsman, with a sneer and a shrug: “Don’t know. Don’t care.”

“The thin lipped Scottish nationalist with a badge on his Scottish beret depicting the Palestinian flag and the logo of the Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign”

I was there too. This man was the most vicious Jew-hater I have ever met. He tried to use the then UK government’s unwillingness to take in unlimited numbers of Jews in the 1930s from Germany as a demonstration that Jews are reviled in the UK.

Scum.

strongly recommend this article by Judea Pearl : there’s a mensch.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1040490.html

For the sake of peace, Israel and Palestinians should apologize to each other
By Judea Pearl

It now seems clear that no peace agreement, not even on principles, will be signed by the Israeli-Palestinian negotiating team before some time in 2009.

The two sides are locked in a fundamentally immobile stalemate.

Israel cannot accommodate a sovereign neighbor rocket-range away from its vital airports while militant elements can and vow to use the shelter of sovereignty to accomplish their aims. And Palestinian society, having taught its youngsters for decades that Israel’s existence is temporary, is unable to restrain its militants from pursuing their aims, especially under conditions of occupation, when Iran promises to render those teachings a reality.
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Yet if movement on the ground is infeasible, movement above it – in the metaphysical sphere of words, metaphors and paradigms – may hold the key to making peace agreements feasible.

The current stalemate hangs on two ideological contentions, Israelis demand for “legitimacy” and Palestinians’ demand for “justice.”

The legitimacy demanded by Israelis is primarily a litmus test for gauging Arabs’ intention to treat peace agreements as permanent. Thus, if the Palestinian Authority agrees to recognize Israel’s “historical right to exist,” instead of just “right to exist,” and if this recognition percolates down to textbook level, Israel’s demand for a proof of intention will be largely satisfied.

However, Palestinians have a profound impediment to recognizing Israel’s “right to exist,” be it historical or de facto, fearing that it would depict their century-old struggle against the Zionist program as a misguided, unjust aggression, thus weakening their own demand for “justice,” as embodied in the claimed “right of return.”

A possible remedy: A dramatic symbolic action that satisfies the Palestinians’ claim to justice, while neutralizing, or substituting for the literal right of return.

Palestinian columnist Daoud Kuttab wrote in the Washington Post, (May 12, 2008): “The basic demand is not the physical return of all refugees but for Israel to take responsibility for causing this decades-long tragedy”

Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery believes that this demand can be satisfied through an open and frank Israeli apology. “… peace between us and the Palestinian people -a real peace, based on real conciliation – starts with an apology” he wrote in Arabic Media Internet Network (June 14, 2008).

“In my mind’s eye” he writes “I see the President of the State or the Prime Minister addressing an extraordinary session of the Knesset and making an historic speech of apology:

“MADAM SPEAKER, Honorable Knesset,

“On behalf of the State of Israel and all its citizens, I address today the sons and daughters of the Palestinian people, wherever they are.

“We recognise the fact that we have committed against you a historic injustice, and we humbly ask your forgiveness.

“The burning desire of the founding fathers of the Zionist movement was to save the Jews of Europe, where the dark clouds of hatred for the Jews were gathering … that would eventually lead to the terrible Holocaust, in which six million Jews perished.

“All this does not justify what happened afterwards. The creation of the Jewish national home in this country has involved a profound injustice to you…

“We cannot ignore anymore the fact that in the war of 1948 – which is the War of Independence for us, and the Naqba for you – some 750 thousand Palestinians were compelled to leave their homes and lands”.

Israeli society is not prepared of course to make such an apology. For an Israeli, the formation of the state was the culmination of an organic historical process that admits no apology. Still, many Israelis would be prepared to assume responsibility for some of the consequences of the war, provided the Palestinians assume their share.

To reciprocate, I now take poetic liberty and, following Avnery, appeal to my mind’s eye at the same Knesset session.

I see President Abbas waiting for the applause to subside, stepping to the podium and saying:

“MADAM SPEAKER, Honorable Knesset,

“On behalf of the Palestinian people and the future State of Palestine, I address today the sons and daughters of the Jewish nation, wherever they are.

“We recognise the fact that we have committed against you a historic injustice, and we humbly ask your forgiveness.

“The burning desire of the founding fathers of the Palestinian national movement was to liberate Palestine from colonial powers; first, the Ottoman empire and then the British Mandate Authorities. In their zeal to achieve independence they have treated the creation of Jewish national home in this country as a form of colonial occupation, rather than a homecoming endeavor of a potentially friendly neighbor, whose historical attachment to this landscape was not weaker than ours.

“We cannot ignore anymore the fact that the Great Arab Revolt of 1936-1939 has resulted in the British White Paper, which prevented thousands, if not millions of European Jews from escaping the Nazi extermination plan.

Nor can we ignore the fact that, when survivors of Nazi concentration camps sought refuge in Palestine, we were instrumental in denying them safety and, when they finally established their historical homeland, we called the armies of our Arab brethren to wipe out their newly created state. Subsequently, in our zeal to rectify the injustice done to us we have taught our children that only your demise can bring about the justice and liberty they so badly deserve. Thousands of your innocent citizens were killed, maimed or injured by violence that erupted from this teaching.”

Utopian? Of course! Feasible? Most Utopias are. Necessary? Only if we aim at a genuine and lasting peace and, having seen the consequences of interim solutions, neither side can afford to aim for less.

Judea Pearl is a professor at UCLA and president of the Daniel Pearl Foundation (www.danielpearl.org), named after his son. He and his wife, Ruth, are editors of “I am Jewish: Personal Reflections Inspired by the Last Words of Daniel Pearl (Jewish Light, 2004).

Note Hedley’s:

“This is certainly not anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (it is a Jewish group that is sponsoring the event).”

i.e. Jews=Israel

What do you think would happen if Jews started to take direct action in the face of these provocations?

“What do you think would happen if Jews started to take direct action in the face of these provocations?”

– Like what?

The PSC thinks nothing of disrupting concerts by Israeli musicians. We did not disrupt this filth last night; we never disrupt any of the anti-Israel events.

We just take it on the chin, incredulous that Rowan Williams does nothing, incredulous that Goldsmiths College allows flagrantly antisemitic meetings in the name of ‘free speech’, incredulous….

What’s the alternative?

Setting off bombs in hotels like in Mumbai?

See my post 9:34pm yesterday:

This is from Philip. He came all the way from Wales. He was not part of any organised demo and would have been prepared to demonstrate alone. Such are our friends.

Dear

It was a pleasure to stand alongside you. I was just disgusted and felt violated by the behaviour of these social, ignorant misfits who say they represent the church.

We’re onto their case and G d willing they will peddle their hatred and poison no more.

Their demise cannot come soon enough. Last night I felt so embarrassed by just being on the same planet as them.

Anyway thanks for your kind message but there was no need as the whole world owes you big time. Without your selfless contribution we would still be in the Dark Age. Keep in touch and any progress that is made will be relayed to you. May the G d of the Hebrews richly bless you and keep you and your family. All we ask for is the strength and courage to stand with you.

“You’ve got to admit, winding up Jews can be fun”

It’s easy as least. Orthodox Jews, Non-observant Jews, non-Jewish Jews, ex-jews, Jew-ish Jews; it’s a pretty tortured self-identity.

Shmuel (Regular Jew)

Well, I wrote in dismay to St James’s about this sorry event, in advance, and was not graced with a response. Will I have more luck writing to Rowan Williams? I doubt it but I’ve tried. Since my old man shook his head in dismay and said of Williams at his appointment as AoC that ‘he’ll preside over the death of the Church’ this all seems par for the course.

As an Anglican who married a Jew and thus became daughter-in-law of a Holocaust survivor (her father, incidentally was an avowed non-Zionist. I won’t use the word ‘anti’ here) this all makes me despair. The most charitable thing I can say about the people, Jewish and non Jewish, who organised this is that they’re the very definition of ‘useful idiots’.

David T: “You’ve got to admit, winding up Jews can be fun”
Shumell: “it’s easy as least. Orthodox Jews, Non-observant Jews, non-Jewish Jews, ex-jews, Jew-ish Jews; it’s a pretty tortured self-identity.

Shmuel (Regular Jew)”

Paah…bacon snitchers…the lot of them, once a bacon snitcher always a bacon snitcher…don’t try and deny it!

Well, I wrote in dismay to St James’s about this sorry event, in advance, and was not graced with a response. Will I have more luck writing to Rowan Williams?

Is the Pope Boche?

What precisely is snitchy about bacon though?

I mean, a snitch – surely – is a person who tells tales, or somebody who steals.

Is it comic inversion – that somebody who didn’t eat bacon would be least likely to steal it?
Or is the thinking that a person who regards bacon as ‘unclean’ is effectively “telling tales” on a foodstuff?

The meaning of “bacon snitchers” is lost on me as well. But a “snitch” in US English is not a tale-teller or thief, but synonymous with “tattle-tale”, “rat” or “stool-pigeon”.

Still don’t get it though.

That they ate bacon subrepticiuosly, according to Nick.

“The thing is, you’re only identifying as Jewish, families that stayed Jewish. The ones that opted out, you can’t identify.”

Not true. They’re the ones who harp obsessively on their personal rejection of Jew-ish-ness.

The question is: How does secretly engaging in a taboo act make someone a snitch? Is masturbation a kind of “dick snitching” in UK English?

They use their religion to
Spread their ill will
Their malicious mission
They’re quick to fulfil…

You should stop visiting neo-Nazi websites. It grows hair on your plams.

You’ve got to admit, winding up Jews can be fun

I am told the KKK are recruiting, tosser.

Shmuel,

You state:

The meaning of “bacon snitchers” is lost on me as well. But a “snitch” in US English is not a tale-teller or thief, but synonymous with “tattle-tale”, “rat” or “stool-pigeon”.

Not only so. I enclose an extract below from the Oxford English Dictionary which you will see also uses an example of the word from The New York Times:

snitch, v.

To take surreptitiously, purloin; to steal or ‘pinch’. slang.

1904 N.Y. Times 6 June 9 They reached Coney Island by snitching rides. 1933 D. L. SAYERS Murder must Advertise iii. 46 He first of all snitched people’s ideas without telling them, and then didn’t give them the credit for it. 1948 L. A. G. STRONG Trevannion xvii. 323 You love a girl faithfully for years, and some glib sod comes along at the heel of the hunt and snitches her from you. 1958 [see BOOKSY a.]. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline xxx. 348 How about that guy who snitched a whole D-9 tractor, brand-new?

In this context, referring to someone as a “bacon snitcher” makes perfect sense.

re: these brave jews.

yeah right. the worst these people might face are the words written against them here on HP and elsewhere.

Now if a group of anti-islamist muslims were to chant carols with the words rewritten to denounce acts of terror, suicide bombing, etc. that would truly be brave, though ultimately i suspect it also would be suicidal (which, incidentally, is why I think that blaming Muslims for the sins of Islamists is racist and unfair, they are the first victims, cowed by the immediate threat of violence).

RE: “i am told the KKK are recruiting, tosser”

I see that David T’s satirical remark was lost on you. Why am i not surprised that you resort to your one-note samba, abuse?

I mean, a snitch – surely – is a person who tells tales, or somebody who steals.

In that context it meant to take surreptitiously, it also means to pinch, nick, perloin, steal….Mikey seems to be with the programme.

The slang for telling tales in my day was ’sneak’, which could be a noun as in…. “That bastard sneak Chuckwucker II told the housemaster about my beer brewing enterprise in the dark room”…. or it could be a verb – to sneak.

“In that context it meant to take surreptitiously, it also means to pinch, nick, perloin, steal….Mikey seems to be with the programme.”

Host melter.

Host melter.

Sorry, I didn’t do Latin!

Fink takes issue with the description of the carols as sham. she writes on Just Peace:
“… notice their childishly defensive use of the word sham. (So that’s
what they call 5 professional singers and an organist…)”

Of course she misunderstands the meaning of the word sham. I cannot agree with David T that she is harmless fun which merely adds to the gaiety of nations. She and her cohorts provide the cloak for the hardline Jew haters like the Scots nationalist to spread their animosity with the cynical smiling disclaimer of How can this event be antisemitic- it is being organised by Jews.

Nice essay from Judea Pearl, Daniel Pearl’s father. Thanks for posting it, Zkharya. Am afraid what Dr. Pearl proposes will not come true for another generation or so, but hopefully some day it will. As you can tell from the lack of response to it here at HP, most of those involved on either side of the Israeli-Palestinian issue are too involved in scoring points for their side to seriously consider the steps needed to bring about a real peace agreement between Israelis & Palestinians.

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/12/lightning-rod-f.html

Go on Deborah Fink – Sue her, you pathetic little self-hating creep

Fabian

Thanks for the Otto Weininger reference ………

I have seen the something good come to my life
and i believe it everything in me are GOD’S
not as what “jew….” talked
i love mosque and every little things in this world
and i feld rich enough of my religion
’cause i’m quetly sure that only my religion can bring us
to the right way in each days.

this is free world but so strange world
fantastic and so full with miracle
just only you was feeling broken and down so much
that never believe in GOD’s but don’t forget sometimes
you was loved that what GOD’S have/ make it.