Harry's Place

They’ve got 15 hostages too it’s being reported. “Deccan Mujahideen” are claiming for this

Thanks Neil. I was waiting for HP to get on the ball.

This is an atrocity in the making on a scale of 7/7 – maybe approaching 9/11. I fear we will be waking-up on Thursday to a real tragedy.

I wonder if this was the test that Biden predicted. I know its Bush’s watch but Obama will want to be commenting tough in case there’s one really waiting for him.

Hey let’s not rush to identify the motives and status of the Terrorists. We don’t want to be saying “Islamic Terrorists” or “Al Qaeda” too early in case we cause ripples ‘in the community’ and it will require the UK police to mobilise their community liaison officers.

There may well be extended UK families involved and is it possible for it to create community tension. We all hope not.

May the potential victims be spared the worse and I hope we will all respect, support and send our best hopes to all those who offer prayers to their God for the best outcomes and comfort they may need.

Apologies if my thoughts aren’t in keeping with political knockabout. I don’t feel its really time to do debate but to reflect, watch and hope.

Fox http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,5798,00.html – graphic images.

It’s not going to be Maoists. They have no beef with America or Britain, and the gunmen were seeking out US and UK passport holders inside the hotels.

Hey let’s not rush to identify the motives and status of the Terrorists. We don’t want to be saying “Islamic Terrorists” or “Al Qaeda” too early in case we cause ripples ‘in the community’ and it will require the UK police to mobilise their community liaison officers.

Oh please. I’ll eat my hat if this is not Islamic terrorism. It never fails to amaze me when people pretend that “all the facts aren’t known”, it could be Maoists, or one of the other religious groups, or some nationalist cause.

Islamic mujhadeen groups are already claiming credit, so in the unlikely event they were not responsible, they bloody well wish they were.

All the hallmarks are there. Co-ordinated attacks. Targeting Westerners, specifically Brits and Americans.

What would be the point in committing a terrorist attack if you was going to be mistaken for some other completely different ’cause’.

Hey let’s not rush to identify the motives and status of the Terrorists

Oh please. I’ll eat my hat if this is not Islamic terrorism

I was being sarcastic. Its a commentary on how the bBC never uses proper names like “Terrorist”. I apologise for being so at a time of such gravity.

Maybe it’s Methodists or Buddhists. After all all religions are pretty similar with similar numbers of nutters. At least that’s what I read somewhere.

You had me there Maven. I should have known better. I was going to say even Mr Asian-Liberal-left is posting a link saying it’s a mujhadeen group.

Oh please. I’ll eat my hat if this is not Islamic terrorism.

I’ll eat your hat too. And not only that, I’ll eat in cooked in a way I hate. Squid ink, or something. Risotto nero con capello bollito, which I think means squid ink risotto with a boiled hat

This gets me from the BBC: “A witness told local television that the gunmen were looking for people with British or US passports”. They didn’t seem that fucking bothered about who they shot, did they. No, the gunmen were looking for people to murder, like always, and the passport and the cause was tacked on the end like always.

The BBC’s Andrew Whitehead says a claim of responsibility by a little-known group, Deccan Mujhaideen, may harden suspicions that Islamic radicals are involved.

Time: 22:16

Too fuckin’ right!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7751160.stm

Which is all you need to know that when Terrorism strikes you don’t bother with the BBC. They can’t use the “Terrorist” word all by themselves.

The BBC’s Andrew Whitehead says a claim of responsibility by a little-known group, Deccan Mujhaideen, may harden suspicions that Islamic radicals are involved.

Time: 22:16

Too effin’ right!

Which is all you need to know that when Terrorism strikes you don’t bother with the BBC. They can’t use the “Terrorist” word all by themselves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7751160.stm

The BBC’s Andrew Whitehead says a claim of responsibility by a little-known group, Deccan Mujhaideen, may harden suspicions that Islamic radicals are involved.

Time: 22:16

Too effin’ right!

Which is all you need to know that when Terrorism strikes you don’t bother with the BBC. They can’t use the “Terrorist” word all by themselves.

“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7751160.stm” BBC link won’t post

No, the gunmen were looking for people to murder, like always, and the passport and the cause was tacked on the end like always.

Do you dispute they were looking for Westerners then?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Mumbai-Terror-Attacks-British-Witness-Tells-Of-His-Experiences/Video/200811415162551?lpos=video_Carousel_Region_2&lid=VIDEO_15162551_Mumbai_Terror_Attacks%3A_British_Witness_Tells_Of_His_Experiences

Let’s get this out of the way right now:

The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.
The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.
The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.
The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.
The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.
The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful.

There. that should be enough for everyone here.

usual HP smears

there will be noonne left to talk to

storm in a teacup

folk

Congratulations, another islamophobic post!

HP=Hitler

same thought at the same time!

Gee, with only preliminary reports as of yet, what are the odds this is being perpetrated by Islamic terrorists? Can there be any sentient beings still alive on the planet who would be surprised if this is so? As Damon Runyon famously said:”The race does not always go to the swift, nor the contest to the strong–but that’s the way to bet.”

This is nothing to do with religion. Repeat: this is nothing to do with relgion.

While I agree on the high probability that these attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists, I can’t help recalling how people rushed to blame the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing on Muslims– which, of course, turned out not to be the case.

I can’t help recalling how people rushed to blame the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing on Muslims– which, of course, turned out not to be the case

Unlike 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali etc… How many terrorist atrocities in the last decade can you name which weren’t Islamic extremists?

Gene: A valuable note of sanity there. However this isn’t Oklahoma and it isn’t 1995. I believe that the perpetrators of this atrocity are some sort of Islamofash.

Gene, in all fairness, this rush was just three years after the first bombing of the W.T.C., and six years later there was a sort of rush to blame the next attack on McVeigh’s mob (no, Troofers don’t count). Furthermore, my recollection is of the blame being on a political element – terrorists who were Muslims, rather than because they were Muslims.

Some other thoughts:

… this is clearly on the scale of the July 2005 bombs, if not more, but nowhere near September 2001. There are guns and hand-delivered bombs, and the security forces will now have the main culprits pinned down.

… Methodists and Buddhists? I understand there’s still some violence in Sri Lanka. Granted there are a fair few Muslims there, but they ain’t responsible.

Looks like another glorious entry in the annals of the Religion Of Peace ™ isn’t it?

Here is the latest from CBS News online, “Scores Killed in India Terror Attacks” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/26/world/main4635144.shtml?tag=topStories;secondStory

Apparently one of the places attacked was Police headquarters.
I doubt if this was the Maoist Naxalites. They are usually content to wage their guerilla war in the countryside. They normally do not got into the big cities and they do not target foreigners.

Let our prayers tonight be with the decent people of our fellow democracy, India, their leaders and their security forces that they will triumph over these evil murderers. Pray also for all those who have been murdered by the terrorists, their loved ones, those wounded and those being hold hostage.

Religion of peace, yeah right, just read the koran and ahaddith, but i suppose the men of the “Left” will think its a socialist manifesto. My condolences to the relatives of the dead, although not to the dead islamic terrorists relatives because your “Jihad Warriors” simply make me sick.

Smells like ISI. Horrific

Anyone who seriously doubts this was the Koranimals probably is unaware of the defecatory habits of bears or the religion of The Pope.

I hope the Indian authorities kill every last one of them and torch the bodies on a mound of pig carcases and Qu’rans right in front of a mosque.

I’d prefer in a mosque but I’m being liberal tonight.

A good comparison would be the gun-attacks at Luxor.

david all, I agree with you…

“”"”Let our prayers tonight be with the decent people of our fellow democracy, India, their leaders and their security forces that they will triumph over these evil murderers. Pray also for all those who have been murdered by the terrorists, their loved ones, those wounded and those being hold hostage.”"”

Horrific

Funnily, Social, I’m thinking much the same about some of the comments here. Mmm, let’s see, dozens dead… I know! Let’s express naff sympathy for them, and just start a rant about Muslims. Including those lowly Muslim menial workers who’re almost certainly amongst the dead.

The group calls itself the Deccan Mujahideen – Decca relating to south India, where communal tensions outside Mumbai are far lower than anywhere else in India. This is not a home-grown group and almost certainly has an association with Al-Qaeda. What I don’t understand is the reluctance to ignore Pakistani appeals to respect its sovereignty over land it can’t be bothered governing and enforcing some semblence of law and order. NWFP and Kashmir are like sores and allowing them to fester in the way they have has caused instability in Pakistan and Afghanistan and death on the streets of India and the UK. A series of targetted short-term intelligence-led military campaigns in Waziristan and Kashmir could break the back of Al-Qaeda and its allies. I’ve always thought that the US-led coalition should have focussed one country east of Iraq and Afghanistan – Iran and Pakistan, where the problems of terrorism emanate from. Their terrorist bases are well-known, I just don’t understand the reluctance.

Well said Alec.

If you are the sort of bigoted numbskull who cannot stop himself saying bollocks like “Koranimals” then you are not welcome. Fuck off bigots.

This attack may or may not be linked to an Islamist group, but even if it is it is not linked to “muslims” as a whole, just as the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda is not linked to the C of E.

Shall we talk about plant photography instead? Either that or Woolies.

Some commenters here are sick in the head. India’s Muslim population – about 150 million – is almost the same size as the entire population of Pakistan and is overwhelmingly peaceful. But some here want to collectively blame them. In India, only Hindu extremists would be making these kind of comments.

Dan, are you the Dan who recently observed that Indian Muslims are predominately of similar status to the lower Hindu castes?

Thank You, Sarah.

Alec: Indian Muslims are mostly, but not all, descended from “lower caste” Hindus who converted to Islam. I’m not sure what your point is.

Dan,Neil D,Alec there is a word for people like yourselves and that word is “cowards” yes and i mean that as a insult, you think its all so clear, don’t you? you are the clever ones, anyone who disagrees with you are nasty bigots because you are so clever, why can’t people just think like yourselves and everything will be fine, thats the deal with you people isn’t it, well isn’t it?. The reason you are cowardly is your blatant refusal to except reality because of your ideological prejudice. You really are the reg and stan, sorry loretta, that monty python made the life of bryan about. You make me just as sick as islamic terrorists do and indeed your cowardice , in my opinion, emboldens these religious fruitcakes to carry out attacks such as these. Oh and by the way the People, remember the people, are not falling for your bullshit explanations any more, just thought i would mention that in case you say you didn’t notice the “People” were getting really angry with islamic intolerance when the shit hits the fan.

Go back and read what we wrote; starting with my response to Gene.

Dan, it was a continuation of my remark that Muslim menial workers would have been caught up in this. Guess what the immediate response from the bottom-feeders here was, though.

Horrific, but definitely Islamic. Only the latest in a very long line of attacks (uh, starting about 1400 years ago).

Horrific, but definitely human. Only the latest in a very long line of attacks (uh, starting about 33,000 years ago).

“it was a continuation of my remark that Muslim menial workers would have been caught up in this”

Yes, and there are Muslims in the police and security forces who will be the targets of this “mujahideen”.

“Dan,Neil D,Alec there is a word for people like yourselves and that word is “cowards” yes and i mean that as a insult”

What do you know? My mother was staying in Mumbai until a couple of days ago. She had tea in the Taj Palace, which is now in flames. I am upset by the attacks, but as an Indian I know they have absolutely nothing to do with the 150 million Muslims in India. There is a long-standing and complex conflict between India and Pakistan and it is likely this is part of it. Unless you believe, as the Hindu extremists (the ones who have slaughtered thousands of Indian Muslims – carnage you would probably excuse) do, that Indian Muslims are the enemy within and that Islam is India’s enemy.

The all-consuming issue in Mumbai over the past year has been whether Biharis are getting an unfair advantage over Maharatis in railway exams. This has led to serious riots and strikes that have shut down Mumbai. Presumably all those who profess to care about ordinary Indians also have as strong an opinion about this issue as they do about Muslims.

Okay, let’s wait until the roster is read out. Say, 15% of the dead are Muslim, can we devote only 85% of our time to defiling the memories of them?

Morgoth: You should have gone to India to have your labotomy; you’re NHS procedure has not cured your problem.

The all-consuming issue in Mumbai over the past year has been whether Biharis are getting an unfair advantage over Maharatis in railway exams.

That’s boring. Are Muslims fixing the examination papers?

Two hundred million? Even 400 years ago, the world’s population was barely three times that. By the middle of last century, more people were alive than ever had lived. In Another Place I have been accused of supporting the genocide against Gaelic-speakers in Scotland and promoting an outing U.N. definition, despite more Darfuris dying this year than there are Gaelic-speakers now; and more in total having died than there ever have Gaelic-speakers anywhere, anywhen.

This really is as barking as the two million dead in Iraq.

This is the sort of attack I have feared would take place. It’s a pretty obvious sort of tactic. One refrains from mentioning it on blogs for fear of encouraging the slower Jihadis, but this is an important moment – like the first Palestinian plane hijack.

They’ve discovered a highly effective tactic. Simple bullets, grenades and panic can do a lot of damage in a built up urban area. Big bangs for small bucks. Expect more of the same.

Coming to an area near you soon – courtesy of Mohammed’s followers (and who can doubt that everything they have done accords with his example?).

*outdated U.N. definition

Field, it’s the sort of attack which has already taken place in Bombay. Good to see you’ve done your background reading.

the people who did this are filth.

I sometimes wonder whether, if the BBC at Shepherd’s Bush, were attacked, leaving many dead, it would be an attack by militants or terrorists?

Well, John, you could check their description of “terror attacks” over the July 2005 bombs.
I’m off to bed.

That’s not a cop out. Well, it is. Not even full-strength anti-psychotic drugs coupled with Mahler being pumped directly into certain posters’ temporal lobes is going to make a difference.

Dan, is your Mother and your family, okay?

John Gentle: I am sure that no matter what happens, as far as the BBC is concerned, the only terrorists are Americans and Israelis.

So let us grieve for the slain and move along. Nothing to see here. Just an average day in Mumbai.

“Dan, is your Mother and your family, okay?”

She’s been in Bangalore since Monday, so she’s OK. The rest live in Kolkata. It’s a big country.

Wha’s really depressing is that after November 5 there’s no reason to hate westerners. Have we not been redeemed?

Morgoth: The attack by Muslims on Indian has been going on for centuries. I work with several Indians (Hindus). Several of them have expressed their shame over the Hindu passivity vis-a-vis Muslims (that is, during the conquest period). I would be ashamed as well, were I them. You’re right, add another 100 to the hundreds of millions slaughtered or subjugated by them.

Thanks, Dan, I am glad your Mother and your family are okay.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone at Harry’s Place.

Alec –

Well there were plane hijacks before the first Palestinian hijack.

I still hold this is very significant. They’ve brought together several tactics here: sequenced attacks, multi-locational attacks, use of small arms, hostage-taking and focus on Westerners to maximise impact.

It’s a step up from what went on before.

We will see it in European cities soon, because this has clearly been such a “success”.

The effect is to close down a city for several days; destroy the tourist trade and spread fear and loathing. All at the cost of what? A few swivel eyed Jihadis. Hardly any planning required.

You might think that insignificant.

I don’t.

Happy Thanksgiving to David All and all you pathetic limey bastards who don’t get to participate in Thid Most American Holiday.

May I quote from Islam’s Holy book (The Quran 9.111): Allah hath purchased of the believers (Muslims) their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain… (Yusaf Ali’s translation)

So it is “Kill and be Killed” for the glory of Allah. How nice. Once again we will hear the so-called “moderate” Muslims saying these are not real Muslims, or that that we don’t understand, and so on.

This is not the beginning of the terrible times that will come; this is just another evil action by vile men following a religion of hate and violence. Worse yet, the people that follow this religion have no heart and conscience. They are not honest. They never look at the dark soul of their faith or consider the evil actions of the man after whose name they say “Praise be unto him.” They not only deceive others, they deceive themselves. It will get worse.

Pathetic. When will our leaders wake up and be honest about this problem? Can they not understand that pretending “Islam means peace” and appeasing Muslims will only make things worse?

I pity the innocent victims of this depicable act. I pity the people of India. I pity all of us, for we will pay in blood for our leaders’ cowardice and stupidity.

Kactuz

Sorry, US government is al queda.

911 was an inside job, watch loose change video, http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2008/050208_b_Loose.htm alex jones is a bit of a nut but he’s right about 911 and quite a few things.. I’ll let you decide.

read this to get an understanding of how a banking cartel runs the world. Makes sense to a lot of you I’m sure
http://www.bigeye.com/federalreserve.htm

Read this to understand a new monetary system that is fair.
http://www.monetary.org/amacolorpamphlet.pdf

Only way to stop all this shit from happening is to get a new monetary system. People need to educate themselves and support a new non usurous monetary system.

bff must stand for “Beyond Fucking Foolish.”

And Happy Turkey Day to David All, Mesquito, Boogski Kactuz and all the other Yanks who comment here. Gobble Gobble!

how does america finance its wars?….it borrows it from overseas. Japan is staring to wonder why it is financing all these wars. Follow the money

http://benjaminfulford.com/Transcript%20of%20Japanese%20Parliamentary%20discussion%20of%20911.html

Even now, at this time in the morning, it is a bit early to get to any serious conclusions.

Things will be clearer by this evening and discussion will be better informed.

please read the articles. Particularly the ones on how the fed was set up and run and the one outlining a new monetary policy. What really needs to happen is a change in the system, these two articles will help explain the current monetary system and why it needs to change. Then please carry on your own research

Alec, that rhetorical technique is called the eurabian shuffle. I believe it’s greatest practitioner is JP. Fezes off to him. I kind of expect it now, as a grim invitability, especially when David posts his fine articles of Islamism. ‘Tis a shame

Again, horrific, barbaric, nihilistic, frightening, all too human and I’m pretty convinced, defo ISI

field,

“Coming to an area near you soon – courtesy of Mohammed’s followers (and who can doubt that everything they have done accords with his example?).”

Many many Muslim people who also count themselves as his followers. Even those in the Iraqi army. They probably believe that he was more discerning in his killings than these guys in Mumbai are. Good for them.

Latest: Fox new reports attack on Orthodox Jewish Centre

FUCK THE BBC!!!!

Just listened to 5Live interview with businessman trapped in a hotel. Fogarty asks him about “the militants” he tells her about “The TERRORISTS”

BBC, IT ISLAMIC TERRORISM BY MUSLIMS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? WHILE YOU SANITISE WE WILL NEVER CONFRONT THE PROBLEM!!!

I am sure the majority of Muslims are as angry as we are about the attacks and conemn them. Knowing that terrorism isn’t supported by the majority of Muslims shouldn’t prevent us from using the correct label.

ITS TERRORISM!

While I agree on the high probability that these attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists…..

So, they are extreme and are Muslims. Doesn’t this mean that they follow the Koran? Doesn’t it mean that they take the passages in the Koran about ‘infidels’ and what should be done with them to literally mean they are sanctioned to kill them in order to fulfil what Mohammed has decreed about them. Doesn’t this mean that they can storm an Orthodox Jewish Centre to ‘kill jews wherever they find them”?

Don’t we call such activities “TERRORISM”? ,So can’t we call them ISLAMIC TERRORISTS???

Someone explain to me why we shouldn’t.

Dan,Neil D,Alec there is a word for people like yourselves and that word is “cowards”

Oh fuck off, there’s a word for people like you and that word is “moron”. You have fallen into exactly the trap the Islamists (including Bin Laden) set for you. They want you to condemn Islam in total and all Muslims.

If you can’t distinguish between Islamism and the vast majority of Muslims then you one of Bin Laden’s unwitting accomplices.

I hear in a separate location in mumbai a Jewish family have also been singled out and taken hostage at their residence.

I know! Let’s express naff sympathy for them, and just start a rant about Muslims. Including those lowly Muslim menial workers who’re almost certainly amongst the dead

Absolutely no-one is blaming the whole of Islam and all Muslims for this atrocity and these acts of terrorism.

We call them, rightly, Islamic Terrorists because their motivation is never singularly political like the IRA but global and driven by their Islamic faith as they take the extreme statements of hate in the Koran and use them to justify why they kill infidels.

Hence their cause is driven by Islam. Often a person can be a member of a religion and do a pick n’ mix on what they want to believe and how they want to express themselves within the religion.

The Islamic Terrorists reads the same book as the benign, “I just want to live a spiritual and peaceful life, and bring up my family” Muslim. The Islamic Terrorist reads the same book as Lord Ahmed, for example, but Lord Ahmed interprets it differently and may not hold the racist views that the Koran expresses.

Unless we can label the reason WHY innocent people are being slaughtered then we can’t address the root causes.

I ask again. Why should it NOT be called Islamic Terrorism? These are the same type of people who did 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Madrid, Beslan etc.

Yes, innocent Muslims get killed as well but the target is undoubtedly non-Muslims. Hence these Islamic Terrorists also define who they are by who they target.

This attack may or may not be linked to an Islamist group, but even if it is it is not linked to “muslims” as a whole, just as the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda is not linked to the C of E.

That’s right. And if the Lord’s Resistance Army started campaigns in The USA, Spain, Britain, South East Asia, Russia then we would ask ourselves “Why such a large geographical spread. What is it about their grievances or beliefs that drives them to attack on such a large geographical area”. We would listen to their own reasons from their own lips. When they tell us its because they are following theior religion and it says they can kill non-believers in theior religion then we will rightly identify that they are terrorists because of their religion since no other cause is stated.

The IRA were NEVER Catholic Terrorists because their cause wasn’t to do with their Catholicism but to do with the desire to create a single Ireland from a partitioned Ireland.

These attacks in Mumbai are just another chapter in the book called “Islamic Terrorist Atrocities” and no amount of politically correct sanitisation can change that.

You have fallen into exactly the trap the Islamists (including Bin Laden) set for you. They want you to condemn Islam in total and all Muslims.

If you can’t distinguish between Islamism and the vast majority of Muslims then you one of Bin Laden’s unwitting accomplices.

YES WE CAN DISTINGUISH, and its insulting of you to trot out these patronising thoughts.

Yeah, Bin Laden WANTS us to demonise ALL Muslims! Bollocks. We KNOW that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t terrorists. We know that only a small minority support terrorism. We read at HP about the Islamists who support terrorism so why patronise us as if Terrorism and Islam aren’t linked.

Look at Judaism. Not all UK Jews are Orthodox. Some will eat bacon and some (most) will drive on saturday. We never have any difficulty in understanding that Jews in the UK aren’t the same as nutter Orthodox Jewish settlers in Israel.

So, why do we have to be patronised about being able to distinguish between Islamist Terrorism and Muslims?

Maven,

You answer your own question:

The Islamic Terrorists reads the same book as the benign, “I just want to live a spiritual and peaceful life, and bring up my family” Muslim.

[...]

Unless we can label the reason WHY innocent people are being slaughtered then we can’t address the root causes.

If you want to isolate the non-benign then you have to distinguish between the two groups. If you conflate the two, suggesting that all Muslims are raving blood-thirsty fanatics, then you act as a recruiting officer for Islamists who want to place a binary choice in front of their coreligionists.

Don’t give them the satisfaction of playing their game.

Maven,

I am not saying that Islam plays no part in the terrorism, it quite obviously does in that Islamists use Islam to justify their actions. What I am concerned about is the bigots who turn up in these threads who blabber on about “Koranimals”. You are obviously confusing yourself with some of the nutters who turn up here who think that all Muslims are essentially part of some fifth column.

An Israeli rabbi is among at least three people being held hostage by gunmen at the Chabad headquarters in Mumbai, following a series of attacks in the city that have killed at least 101 people, police said.

Ha artez http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041308.html

Now why would these “militants” with no understandable cause or motive that binds them, do this? Was it just drive-by opportunism

Presumably, if Jews,Americans and British citizens were singled out,then that will make these attacks easier to justify by some in the “peace movement”

Neil, I appreciate you are trying to make distinctions here.

I was one of the first people here to propose distinguishing between “Islamaphobia” and call it “Islamistphobia” since we were more concerned at the political and jihadist aims of Islamists rather than all followers of Islam.

You can evidence that there was no violence shown to Muslims in the UK, USA, Spain after Islamic Terrorism in those countries. The public KNOWS its not all Muslims. I equally condemn those who make references to followers of Islam as ‘animals’. That IS the kind of language that is unhelpful.

So, that is why we should make clear that Islamic Terrorism exists, its fuelled by the words of The Koran and Hadith’s, its fuelled by Islamist preachers.

Its rejected by the majority of Muslims. Not a single Muslim in the UK will be attacked because of Islamic Terrorism taking place in Mumbai (I sincerely hope).

If Jews can choose to ignore “don’t ride on the sabbath” then equally most Muslims will ignore “Take not the Christians and the Jews for friends……” Sura 5;54

Don’t forhet Maven, that the majority of the victims of Al Queda are Muslim,and their end game is the wipe out of secular Muslims.

Don’t forhet Maven, that the majority of the victims of Al Queda are Muslim,and their end game is the wipe out of secular Muslims.

THat wouldn’t mean the label “Islamic Terrorists” is not appropriate.

Did anyone notice that the HP tag for this thread is “Islamism”. Does anyone deny its “Terrorism”. Now put those two words together.

Moderation in the face of a massacre can be difficult for some, I tend to find myself angrier and less thoughtful about comments.

Maven generally agreeing with your comment 7.46am.

ts fuelled by the words of The Koran and Hadith’s

And a host of psychological reasons too. Upbringing, self-esteem, peer behaviour… Normally words don’t hypnotise people alone to murder. Not unless they’re somewhat crazy in the first place. I think going violent Islamic radical gives a collective outlet for the crazies, because of the mostly unique and somewhat warrior like figure of Mohammed as a religious figure.

Perhaps we could ask the BBC why the Settlers in West Bank are called “Jewish Settlers” – hence dmonising ALL Jews (according to the analogy presented her by some posters) and yet when a group with the title “Mujahadeen” undertakes terrorist attacks they are called unlabelled Militants.

BBC clear double-standard.

crazies, because of the mostly unique and somewhat warrior like figure of Mohammed as a religious figure.

Mohammed might well be labelled as a Prophet but he was also a war-lord who conquered Mecca and Medina and caused the slaughter of people including tribes of Jews for rejecting Islam.

The confusion is that the pre-Medina Koran is all peace and light but the latter part of The Koran includes Mohammed’s preaching about how to deal with non-believers.

Maven –

Some very good and telling points which opponents are unable to answer.

If you have a religion comprising 1.2 billion people, you have a major problem on your hands globally even if only 10% interpret it to mean go fight the unbelievers…that’s a 120 million people committed to supporting Jihad -even if 90% don’t.

The picture I believe is more complicated. Probably goes 1% actual Jihadis, 10% engaged in active support, another 20-30% passively supporting the Jihadi cause but not taking any personal risks, another 40% unwilling to condemn effectively or blaming Western conspiracies and 20% genuinely condemning Jihadism in varying degrees.

I think most of us who adopt a critical attitude to Islam here recognise that there is this sort of make up of opinion within Islam.

Perhaps HP should get its policies firmly established in all poster’s minds.

I think I’m clear as to what happens here.

David T does a brilliant job of outing the Islamists who preach what might be described as sedition and pro-terrorist ideas. Amongst these are permissions to carry out terrorist attacks against Israelis.

When a group of people engage in acts of Terrorism based on Islamist preaching and violent Jihad principles we somehow have to become the BBC where they try to avoid using the word “Terrorist” (although it slips out because you can’t stop people from saying what they believe) and we have to take pains (rightly) to say that we don’t mean ALL Muslims when clearly articles at HP are point out that we are attacking the policies of Islamists and not Muslims.

Note that breaking news from someone in the locale (9:35 Thursday) is that they can hear gunfire that appears to be coming from an Israeli centre. That might be a rescue – it might not.

When a group targets International Hotels, popular tourist restaurants and an Israeli centre you can be sure by their selective nature who and what they are.

Maven,

“Doesn’t this mean that they can storm an Orthodox Jewish Centre to ‘kill jews wherever they find them”?”

I thought that was about the pagans of the Quraish. Is that tribe still around?

David T does a brilliant job of outing the Islamists who preach what might be described as sedition and pro-terrorist ideas. Amongst these are permissions to carry out terrorist attacks against Israelis.

When a group of people engage in acts of Terrorism based on Islamist preaching and violent Jihad principles we somehow have to become the BBC where they try to avoid using the word “Terrorist” (although it slips out because you can’t stop people from saying what they believe) and we have to take pains (rightly) to say that we don’t mean ALL Muslims when clearly articles at HP are point out that we are attacking the policies of Islamists and not Muslims.

Maven,

Some fpoints.

1. I stand at one with David on the subject of Islamism. I’m not sure where you got the impression I didn’t.

2. I have absolutely no problem calling this terrorism, and do not endorse the practice of using the terms militant/radical when terrorist is appropriate (which it is).

3. This post draws attention to the fact it is likely to be a Islamist-based attack, then gives a possibility of an alternative suggestion which at the start of the attack may have been important, but also notes that the nature of the attack makes that less likely. There is nothing wrong with that.

4. I hope that you are able to see that some of the contributions in this thread come from a simplistic and/or bigoted viewpoint. I think we ought to confront these people when they appear. That is not the same as trying to downplay the role of Islamists in the current attack.

5. Read this. Then read it again.

6. It is a great shame that instead of discussing the tragic loss of life in this attack, and the potential mechanisms for countering such terrorism, the thread attracts a bunch of fuckwits with fuck all understanding of the nature of Islamist terrorism who start banging on about “the Muslims” and calling Mohammed a paedophile (I couldn’t give a shit if he was or not). The same goes for those quotinig hadiths and passages from the Koran. So nutjobs use a magical textbook to justify murder? What’s new?

I sometimes wonder whether, if the BBC at Shepherd’s Bush, were attacked, leaving many dead, it would be an attack by militants or terrorists?

There would be much rejoicing….

Neil D, “the nature of Islamist terrorism” is Islam, full stop. Until you get this fact into your bloody head, attacks like these will continue. How many people must DIE because of YOUR willing acquisence to clerical fascism?

Don’t forhet Maven, that the majority of the victims of Al Queda are Muslim,and their end game is the wipe out of secular Muslims.

Tim, given how Islam is *expressely* anti-secular, so-called “secular Muslims” aren’t actually Muslim. I’m more Muslim than these “secular Muslims”, for fuck’s sake.

You know, you and David T constantly whine about your stereotypical friend Mo down the Offy who drinks and smokes and eats bacon and gets aledgedly unfairly lumped in with Bin Laden. The simple fact is that he’s *not* Muslim. You wouldn’t call someone who rejects the Nicene creed Christian, would you, no matter how much they insisted? Actually, your namby-pamby Liberalism would mean you probably would.

“the nature of Islamist terrorism” is Islam, full stop.

There’s stuff after the full stop. You cannot be unware of it if you read this blog.

How many people must DIE because of YOUR willing acquisence to clerical fascism?

Fuck off Morgoth. I’m no appeaser.

Neil D – there needn’t be any thing after your full stop! Fuck off Morgoth will do.

Neil D – there needn’t be any thing after your full stop! Fuck off Morgoth will do.

I’m no appeaser.

Yes you are. You continue to support the malign and murderous influence of theism. Until theism of *any* form is wiped out, the human race and this planet is at incredible risk.

“We call them, rightly, Islamic Terrorists because their motivation is never singularly political like the IRA but global and driven by their Islamic faith”

No, this is a regional conflict fought by one side under the guise of religion. Religion is not the prime motivation behind terrorism in South Asia, politics is.

Until theism of *any* form is wiped out, the human race and this planet is at incredible risk.

Well good look with that project Morgoth. What are you going to do in your spare time?

Until theism of *any* form is wiped out, the human race and this planet is at incredible risk.

What? No more Frank Tipler?

That’s right. And if the Lord’s Resistance Army started campaigns in The USA, Spain, Britain, South East Asia, Russia then we would ask ourselves “Why such a large geographical spread.

Yeah, it’s only Mbongo-Mbingo land it’s happening in. Not like good white countries when it’s really important.

Is this the point at which Morgoth and Maven say they’re been censored for telling The Truth, whilst they get to post?

I stand at one with David on the subject of Islamism. I’m not sure where you got the impression I didn’t.

Neil D, apologies if you believed I was suggesting you weren’t. My comment was a general one and not aimed at you.

I note that the article Headline is “Terror in Mumbai” and that the HP tag is “Islamism”. Hence, “islamist Terrorism” follows logically as a label.

I re-emphasise that my anger at Islamic terror is not directed at who I call “Joe the Muslim” (I didn’t want to use an Asian name in case it felt racist). But it is directed at the sort of people so brilliantly outed here. I might even reserve some of that towards Bungle, Tammimi, Qaradawi etc and others who skate around condemning ALL terror.

I also re-state my commnets about the BBC:-

They try hard to avoid using the phrase “Islamic Terrorists” they say to avoid demonising ALL Muslims but don’t shy away from mentioning “Jewish Settlers” where it can be equally argued that it demonises ALL Jews.

In reality we are all intelligent enough to separate these things. No-one thinks that Sir Alan Sugar and Lord Ahmed are terrorists

Yeah, it’s only Mbongo-Mbingo land it’s happening in. Not like good white countries when it’s really important.

Uganda is an excellent and productive country with a proud history and splendid people. It isn’t “Mbongo-Mbingo land” you racist cunt.

Is this the point at which Morgoth and Maven say they’re been censored for telling The Truth, whilst they get to post?

When have I ever complained about being censored?

David T, for all his faults, isn’t Sunny Hundal. Or even remotely near.

Is this the point at which Morgoth and Maven say they’re been censored for telling The Truth, whilst they get to post?

???????????

I’ve never complained of being censored. We all know there is a technical problem whereby if you use a url to an external source then that post sometimes fails to make it.

I’m far too good a balanced and informed poster for HP to want me to go away and reduce the average IQ of the posting community by 50% ;-)

Dan, it is a regional conflict in the sense of Islams historical presence as Invader of India and the wiping out of infidelity being the long-term goal of Islam.

If you naively believe that giving up Kashmir and a few other places this will stop you are really stupid.

Islam is historically an aggressive invader of countries and presenting this as a kind of self-defensive move on the part of mujahideen shows you buy some pretty silly propaganda.

Re-read the bullshit you wrote above and think about why you are compelled to write such horseshit…………

Don’t forhet Maven, that the majority of the victims of Al Queda are Muslim, and their end game is the wipe out of secular Muslims.

Isn’t secular Muslims an incongruity?
The definition of muslim is a believer or follower of Islam. The definition of secular usually what is profane, the worldly, civil, or non-religious as distinguished from religion or the sacred.

This labeling of people that happen to have been in parts of the world where Islam is the dominant religion is a great success accomplishes by the islamists. Not so long ago people was Egyptians, Algerians maybe even Arabs or Berbers or even by class belonging, but no longer so, now are people from Indonesia to Morocco first and foremost Muslims as this is some inherited characteristic for people born where Islam is the dominant religion.

Italy, Spain and so on is countries where Catholicism is the dominant religion and one can broadly label the people Catholics but one wouldn’t insist on labeling individuals that doesn’t profess them self as Catholics to be secular Catholics/Christians, I will do just fine to call them Italians, Sicilians, Spaniards or what ever.

No one else but people from countries where Islam is dominant is first and foremost characterized and labeled per default as religious believers.

And BTW I don’t believe Al Queda and other islamist extremists discriminate when scores of locals is reaped as “collaterals” for the cause that justifies the means. Probably better the more that is sent of to eternal life with Mo as martyrs than eternal damnation in hell.

Many enlightened, liberal, civilized non-muslims keep claiming that the vast majority of world’s muslims are peaceful and oppose extremism. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW THAT?

How many of you apologists have actually lived among muslims in predominantly muslim countries? How many of you know enough arab/farsi/pakistani/whatever to understand what they say to each other when they don’t know western ears could hear them? How do you dare pretending you know what millions of strangers think or feel? If I was a muslim I’d be quite enraged by your patronizing attitude.

Let’s suppose you are right, and the vast majority of muslims really are those snow-white doves. If so, where do the extremists find fresh jihadists to replace their martyrs? Is there a factory of cloned muslim terrorists to-go somewhere on Mars, maybe?

The sad truth is that islam, unchanged since the Middle Ages and relfecting those dark times mentality, is a fertile soil for growing home-made jihadists. The sad truth is that nobody can tell a peaceful moderate muslim apart from a terrorist just by looking at them. And since it’s their religion that spawns extremists and terrorists, it doesn’t really matter how many of them are peaceful and moderate. It’s up to those moderate muslims to fight the extremists in their midst, to reform their education system and teach their children to value life – everybody’s life, including their own. It’s their responsibility and theirs alone. Nobody, ever, should loose a child because a peaceful moderate muslim failed (or did not care) to educate his child.

Seems to me that the Islamicists have a project of disrupting world trade, no doubt expecting to benefit in the confusion that would be created. There are attacks on international hotels in Pakistan, India, and piracy on the High Seas, as well as the rumbling-on wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Philipines etc. That they are using the flag of Islam is a fact, whether as Dan insists this is a regional dispute or not. They know that a undeveloped country such as India does not have the police resources to cope with attacks, not enough CCTVs and mobile phone records. But there are plenty of underfed, overeducated and resentful people that can be used as bombmules. It cannot be emphasised more strongly, in my opinion, that these terrorists do not want economic and political development, they want to keep the world in the Middle Ages because if there was a rational world they would not have any power.

“it is a regional conflict in the sense of Islams historical presence as Invader of India and the wiping out of infidelity being the long-term goal of Islam.”

Don’t embarrass yourself with such displays of ignorance.

“Islam is historically an aggressive invader of countries and presenting this as a kind of self-defensive move on the part of mujahideen shows you buy some pretty silly propaganda.”

You illiterate ignorant shit, you didn’t read a bit of what I wrote and instead lied about what I said.

I can see this is another thread that has descended into anti-Muslim bigotry.

They really tossers. They don’t even realise they are playing into the hands of the extremists by effectively calling secular Muslims apostates. Morons.

What’s the political motivation then, Dan?

No, this is a regional conflict fought by one side under the guise of religion. Religion is not the prime motivation behind terrorism in South Asia, politics is.

If it is Indian Mujahideen believed to be a shadow amalgam of Students Islamic Movement of India and Lashkar-e-Toiba it is religious. The stated mission of SIMI is the ‘liberation of India’ from western materialistic cultural influence and to convert it into an Islamic society.

Organized religion is politics and has always been, politics with the super ace supernatural power that trump any opposition. Especially the abrahamitic religions. The Christian doctrine as we know it was a pure political creation by Constantine an so was Islam by the emerging big power of Arabian conquests, the doctrine was assembled and created several hundred years after the prophet lifetime for a political purpose.

They really tossers. They don’t even realise they are playing into the hands of the extremists by effectively calling secular Muslims apostates. Morons.

The logic of Neil D.’s statement is impeccable – if you are a coward who thinks the only way to stop people getting killed is to pretend they are Muslims. When are you converting, Neil D? When do you stop blaming the victim?

A witness told local television that the gunmen were looking for people with British or US passports.

‘British and American businessmen and tourists (and Jews) out of Kashmir nao!!1!’

Good point, Mr. Tooth.

They self-identify as Muslims Morgoth.

Are you going to go on a speaking tour at Mosques saying that violent jihaism is the one true way in Islam that you accpet and then ask them to chose sides?

Do you apply this same bizarre logic to other religions?

I wonder if you know what point you just made, Boogski. Any chance it was that this was gestated in the gawd-awful political situation in Kashmir before anything overtly ‘Islamic’?

Oh, please start posting again in this thread Benji. Your irenic tone is preferable to the bilge we’re seeing now.

If there’s one appeal to religion I can’t stand more than self-regarding Jews who think their burblings carry unimpeachable truth because they’re Jewish, it’s wanker misanthropes who claim to be atheists and then attack all religions with the fervour of one who believes their visage of the truth to be divinely mandated.

Leave the Gingers alone, let’s all slap a self-denying deist!

Things will be clearer by this evening and discussion will be better informed.

CLAP HAMMER

That assumes the offenders in this thread are not the sort to tear into a subject (which is the attacks in Mumbay, before anyone says owt) they have no inclination of researching with their own fantasies about a monolithic Islam.

It will get worse. Much worse.

Any chance it was that this was gestated in the gawd-awful political situation in Kashmir before anything overtly ‘Islamic’?

It’s possible, I suppose. It’s also possible that these creeps don’t give a flying fuck about Kashmir; they simply hate Americans, Britons and (if they are indeed Islamists) Jews.

Are you going to go on a speaking tour at Mosques saying that violent jihaism is the one true way in Islam that you accpet and then ask them to chose sides?

Do you apply this same bizarre logic to other religions?

Suppose, we did create an imaginary questionnaire and asked all Muslims to fill it in. (and to be fair we could make it a Census of all Brits). Suppose we listed acts of Islamic Terrorist atrocities and asked “Yes Or No, were these attacks justified”.

Wouldn’t YOU want to take some action of protection and safety against anyone who answered “Yes” on the basis that this person might actively support Islamic terrorism?

Note that since Sep 2001 there have been nearly 200 convictions of Muslims for Terrorism Related offences. We can’t ignore that in a population of 3% that Terrorism Convictions representing some 95% of all terrorism convictions. Doesn’t indicate a problem area.

I know someone will then produce the imaginary questionnaire about the attitudes of Jews to Israel but Jews aren’t killing people on a global stage because of what happens in Israel. Even if a Jew said “I 100% supporter settler attacks on Arabs” we can label that person as a nutter – but not a nutter who might carry a bomb onto the underground.

BBC, IT ISLAMIC TERRORISM BY MUSLIMS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? WHILE YOU SANITISE WE WILL NEVER CONFRONT THE PROBLEM!!!

I am sure the majority of Muslims are as angry as we are about the attacks and conemn them. Knowing that terrorism isn’t supported by the majority of Muslims shouldn’t prevent us from using the correct label. ITS TERRORISM!

I can’t agree more. If there were a hell, it would be designed for such filth as these terrorists.

Let’s suppose you are right, and the vast majority of muslims really are those snow-white doves. If so, where do the extremists find fresh jihadists to replace their martyrs? Is there a factory of cloned muslim terrorists to-go somewhere on Mars, maybe?

Have you lived in a country which has suffered from terrorism, opposed by the great majority of the people in whose name the violence was committed? The Real IRA or ETA maybe, perhaps the RAF? Then answer your own question.

Uganda is an excellent and productive country with a proud history and splendid people.

By your logic, this productiveness was during the colonial period (before hand it was spread across separate states). It certainly hasn’t shone recently. In fact, Muslim-majority states have been more productive, for a more prolonged period and more recently than Uganda.

It isn’t “Mbongo-Mbingo land” you racist cunt.

Two options, you either: a) know what I was referring to, in which case you’re a lying short-tempered twat; b) don’t know what I was referring to, in which case you’re a ignorant short-tempered twat.

I believe that this has all the hallmarks of Islamism.

If so, stand by, people, for a spate of articles on Cesspit is Free, led by its resident arch apologist for Islamism, Bungler, which

a) make excuses for the perpetrators, and/or
b) say it’s a Jewish/Zionist plot to discredit Muslims, and/or
c) try to convince us that Islamists were not involved.

I laughed until I almost cried when Gordon Brown promised a “vigorous reponse!” This from someone who is content to treat with Islamists, has them in the civil service and governs a country which has thousands of them in the wind.

They self-identify as Muslims Morgoth.

I could self-identify as a duck, Neil. But unless I have a bill and feathers, I’m not a duck, no matter how much I want to.

You’re the fool embarrassing yourself Dan.

You’re saying it’s political. If that doesn’t mean Kashmir then it means nothing at all.

I was 100% expecting these attacks. I’ve eaten in Chabad House in Thailand and mentally imagined the Jihadis attacking at any moment. I predicted attacks in Jaipur a few years ago to a friend there, saying they were 100% likely only the timing was the issue.

The attacks, specifically targeting civilians, are the Islamic jihadi speciality. Your pseudo-intellectual input about it just being about politics and religion having nothing to do with it only show your ideological foolishness.

Naxailites? These is known as confusing the issue. Apart from anything else they don’t exist anywhere in the region.

Intresting that Andrew Whitehead is now the BBC chief in India(?).

Let’s just say that I knew Andrew when he was Warwick as a post-grad. More information only given in confidence.

Coatesy, I think it’s been dealt with that Neil was simply covering all angles, and it was clear who/what was behind the attacks.

Plus, interesting good or interesting bad? You’ve started now, there’s no going back!

Dan, it was a continuation of my remark that Muslim menial workers would have been caught up in this. Guess what the immediate response from the bottom-feeders here was, though.

And so?

What you refuse to acknowledge, Alec, is that these attacks, despite the fact most Muslims are peaceful, draw their inspiration directly from Islam’s core texts.

These texts were written by a monster who destroyed the entire Jewish community of Medina, killing all adult males and enslaving the women as sexual concubines.

The more an individuals becomes enthralled by those text, the greater the liklihood that individual will commit acts of violence.

So what is you cowardice worth?

By that I mean how many lives will terrorists motivated and inspired by Islam have to take before you’ll summon the courage to connect the dots?

This is a global struggle; attacks against Buddhists in Thailand, attacks against Hindus in Kashmir ( and India), attacks against Jews in the Middle East and attacks against Christians, not just in The sudan, but in at least another dozen hotspots as well.

This isn’t the IRA!

Why won’t you see that? Are you politically correct to the point of utter stupidity, or is it your habit to rock back ‘n forth in studied autism every time islamists commit yet another atrocity?

You are thrashing around for any excuse to deny this, even attempting to dissimulate your cowadice behind a veil of sober nuanced *analysis* that you foolishly think provides a moral, rational and intellectual counterweight to the ‘rants’ of the so-called bigoted Islam-bashers here.

The ‘bashers’ have it right, but give youself a little moral pat on the head nonetheless for being such a good anti-racist.

Those who claim the terrorists are fulfilling the logical conclusion of Islam are no better than the fundamentalists. But to isolate these attacks from the complex political issues between India and Pakistan – and within Pakistan itself with elements within the military and security services vying for control, using groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba as proxies – betrays simplistic naivité. Those who are drawn to these groups may be fundamentalists, but these groups are sustained by political and business interests (the military owns large swathes of the economy) within Pakistan. The military can only thrive if there is conflict, and foreign governments have done the Indian subcontinent no favours by aiding the Pakistani military. It is notable that the attacks come after the new civilian Pakistani president put renewed emphasis on improving relations with India.

John P, since when did Christianity ever care about Jews?

The only thing Christianity has ever done for Judiasm is to invent new ways of killing its adherents.

I am upset by the attacks, but as an Indian I know they have absolutely nothing to do with the 150 million Muslims in India. There is a long-standing and complex conflict between India and Pakistan and it is likely this is part of it. Unless you believe, as the Hindu extremists (the ones who have slaughtered thousands of Indian Muslims – carnage you would probably excuse) do, that Indian Muslims are the enemy within and that Islam is India’s enemy.

And there is a long-standing dispute between The Turks and the Greeks.

And there is a longstanding dispute between Israel and The Arabs

And there is a long-standing dispute between the Armenians and Azerabijan.

And there is longstanding dispute between Manilla and rebels on Mindanao in the phillippines.

I could dozen of other ‘longstanding disputes’ , but haven’t the time.

So here’s my question, and it is an absolute fucking no-brainer: Just what is the only, the only factor common to everyone of these longstanding ‘disputes’?

Quick! Call me a bigot!

Would you list the long standing dispute between Columbia and Venezuela, or Peru and Chile? How about the long standing dispute between China and Taiwan, or China and Russia? Does Eastern Europe have a long historical Orthodox love in?

Are you a twat?

John P – the difference in Indian example is that the Hindu ’side’ has been responsible for massacres, terror and unspeakable horror too.

More crap from Dan, Islam can not be blamed at all, but then again (the fundamentalists can though what type of fundamentalism it is isn’t to be pronounced), but just as bad as those heinous murderers of civilians in Dan’s warped mind are those who point out the hate within Islamic theology and it’s history.

Dan is isolating this from Islam and saying it is only politics and Islam is irrelevant. So he wants to bring it down to a complex political situation wherein Islam has no relevance but only politics.

Islam of course must be completely apolitical to manage such amazing irrelevance despite all of the actors claiming it as their motivation.

What complexity!?!!!

Let’s see an article from this great intellectual posted that spells this all out for us.

BBC:
stand-off continues at a Jewish centre, where an Israeli rabbi and his family are believed to have been taken hostage, and one militant reportedly phoned local TV offering to negotiate over the release of hostages

Perhaps this ‘militant’ is simply an ‘armed person’, maybe they are just a ‘criminal element’. Could it be that they are just a ‘combatant’ or ’someone with a grievance’. I suppose they could be called ‘a kidnapper’. BBC will call them anything but Terrorist.

Look at Fox News and Sky News. No such problems.

” offering to negotiate over the release of hostages” oh, how thoroughly decent of this chap. He’s not so bad after all. He just wants to get a whole load of other nice chappies released and we’ll hear no more from him.

If anyone gets the chance to rip this guy’s heart out while he is still screaming Allah Akhbar then give a tug for me please. No doubt anyone who does this will be arrested for passing sentence without a trial. Out of all the millions of non-Jews in Mumbai he just happened to stumble into a Jewish/Israeli community centre.

John P, since when did Christianity ever care about Jews?

Look at the USA. The Christians LOVE Jews over there. What’s not to like?

Those who claim the terrorists are fulfilling the logical conclusion of Islam are no better than the fundamentalists.

I disagree. There’s plenty of evidence right here on HP which indicates that certain Islamist groups have the aim of establishing a global, all-powerful Caliphate (through violence, if necessary). So what’s wrong with saying “Ok then. I believe you.”?

I could dozen of other ‘longstanding disputes’ , but haven’t the time.

Pratt.

This is not the beginning of the terrible times that will come; this is just another evil action by vile men following a religion of hate and violence. Worse yet, the people that follow this religion have no heart and conscience. They are not honest. They never look at the dark soul of their faith or consider the evil actions of the man after whose name they say “Praise be unto him.” They not only deceive others, they deceive themselves. It will get worse.

You are so SO right.

And indeed hasn’t it already gotten worse. As we speak NY is on an alert.

Repeating that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, though true, doesn’t help in any way because Islam itself isn’t peaceful. It’s texts and theology are filled with orders and instructions to kill non-believers, and that in doing so one’s place in heaven is guaranteed.

And it should also be pointed out that the majority of Muslims have never read the Koran.

Islam is a very, very violent ideology and we should fully expect SOME muslims to act on that.

And if we nor are politicians are capable of surmounting certain PC language barriers, if they cannot summon the courage to see the enemy for what it is, then millions and millions could get killed.

Deniers here like Dan, Alec and Neil should be ashamed to engage in PC moral preening on the backs of ‘fresh-kill’.

And to then to express their deepsest sympathies for the victims immediately afterwards.

Yeah! Sure!

The rest of us, of course, are far too unenlightened to feel anything approaching sympathy….

The terrorists are not fulfilling logic of Islam but logic of radical Islam. There is a real ideological/political difference – the later is a death cult that’s a product of modernity. It’s not useful nor illuminating too conflate the two.

“Look at the USA. The Christians LOVE Jews over there.”

You are on drugs.

You are on drugs

Modified: Look at the USA. Many Christians LOVE Jews over there.

.

because Islam itself isn’t peaceful.

And Christianity is a Bundle of Peace and Love?

Like fuck it is, John P. The only difference between your lot and the Mumbai Murderers is that you’ve tactically decided that you couldn’t get away with mass killing of heretics and unbelievers any longer. So you’ve decided to go about your enslaving of the human mind in more devious, snake-tongued ways.

A plague on both your houses!

Modified: Look at the USA. Many Christians LOVE Jews over there.

Especially the ones who “convert”?

(though how anyone can convert out of an ethnicity is still beyond me – I’m still in a Disraeli-esque state of bafflement on that one)

Neil, can I suggest that you either close this thread or start deleting Morgoth?

John P, please point to where I have denied the moral corruption of Islamism. Or stop lying.

Especially the ones who “convert”?

And the dead ones who hasten End Times. The worst thing that could happen for these Chritian “philosemites” is peace in the middle east. They love Jews like I love hamburger.

John P, since when did Christianity ever care about Jews?

Morgoth, Christianity has treated Jews horribly over the centuries. Christians have engaged in countless pogroms across Europe and I would never attempt to either diminish or deny that.

That said, the distinction should be made (and never forgotten) that Christ, unlike Mohammed, never killed anyone, let alone his fellow Jews.

Theologically speaking, if I kill a Jew…and many Christians have… I am nonetheless in flagrant violation of Christian scripture.

There’s hope there.

Theologically speaking, if a Muslim kills a Jew, even one that is 2 years old or, in the case of Canada, over the age of 18, then that Muslim is simply applying scripture and moving closer to ‘god’.

Hopeless.

I hear that the Caliphate of France has a long history of disputes with England. Thankfully we defeated them at the Gates of Waterloo!: Neil D.

Tee-hee!

You’re still an adolsecent, you know.

The terrorists are not fulfilling logic of Islam but logic of radical Islam. There is a real ideological/political difference – the later is a death cult that’s a product of modernity. It’s not useful nor illuminating too conflate the two.

After 7/7 Blair stood outside of No 10 after begging the opinion of Islamist organisation leaders who stood around him and he parroted that the bombers were following a perversion of Islam.

My response is to suggest we all read the literature that these ‘perverts” must be reading and being taught from in order to find out how to counter it. Just like the works of Marquis De Sade were banned at one time then surely we just need to ban those books too, the teachers of this ‘perversion’ and anyone publicly promoting such ‘perversions’.

During the House of Commons discussions about the Religious incitement act Boris Johnson even read from this book and quoted passages he said were surely enough to get the book banned.

Problem is that the book was called The Koran.

Here lies the dilemma. We can’t ban a book that is also fundamental to Islamic teachings and treasured by ALL Muslims. In fact isn’t the Koran a Pillar of Islam.

I thought Field made a good point when he said:

If you have a religion comprising 1.2 billion people, you have a major problem on your hands globally even if only 10% interpret it to mean go fight the unbelievers…that’s a 120 million people committed to supporting Jihad -even if 90% don’t.

The picture I believe is more complicated. Probably goes 1% actual Jihadis, 10% engaged in active support, another 20-30% passively supporting the Jihadi cause but not taking any personal risks, another 40% unwilling to condemn effectively or blaming Western conspiracies and 20% genuinely condemning Jihadism in varying degrees.

I think most of us who adopt a critical attitude to Islam here recognise that there is this sort of make up of opinion within Islam.

Seems like the terrorists came over from Karachi in a merchant vessel.

If 10% of Indian Muslims chose jihad, that would be the equivalent of 15 million jihadists. Anyone with any experience of India will know that jihadists in the country are negligible. India may not be an integrated society and still has explosions of communalism from all sides, although the majority of attacks are by Hindus on Muslims, Sikhs and Christians. But Muslims in India – particularly Shia and Sufi – know they are better off in India than in Pakistan in terms of overall cultural and religious tolerance, political representation (Pakistan has been governed by the military for much of its short history) and economic opportunities.

There is little chance that the terrorists behind the Mumbai attacks have anything to do with the opinions of the Indian Muslim population. Indian Muslims are not an “enemy within”. So, this is not Islam being played out to its logical conclusion, it is the result of interference from neighbouring Pakistan for the agenda of a certain nasty clique there – one that even most Pakistanis cannot relate to. Nothing to do with Islam as a religion and everything to do with Islamic radicalism used to prop up the Pakistani military’s interests.

Many ancient religious texts – Qu’ran/Torah – have genocidal passages, over course of time adherents to these religions have managed to remain religious without recourse to committing acts of genocide/terror/murder. Radical Islam on the other hand is predicated on idea of killing the unbeliever.

Personally I find all the religious texts laughable, I’m not a believer, however, I don’t think it helps in either our understanding of the problem or of finding the correct solution to posit Islam as a whole as the problem.

Not clear yet Sue BUT, CI(F) has a blog which may be of interest.

After Mumbai, an end to complacency?

It will be interesting to see if the terrorists are Indian, Pakistani or from elsewhere.

All credit to Ally Mac for eloquently holding the line for sanity here, but putting this post up here merely paraphrasing news people will have already heard serves no purpose, beyond giving the Usual Suspects a forum to cough up their usual fur balls about the supposed evils of Islam.

All credit to Ally Mac for eloquently holding the line for sanity here, but putting this post up here merely paraphrasing news people will have already heard serves no purpose, beyond giving the Usual Suspects a forum to cough up their usual fur balls about the supposed evils of Islam.

Sadly I fear you are correct, although I disagree that there is anything inherently wrong with a blog linking to a current event.

Unfortunately I am unable to close threads due to my limited administrative rights.

John P, I am inclined to agree with you.

If people of a particular faith or culture, having been forbidden from questioning anything about that faith for culture, are easily led by the nose and just as easily swallow whole what is told them, then, yes, the faith system is blameworthy for any violence inspired and perpetuated by it.

The Islamist stock in trade is to divide and terrorise, to set people against each other. Where this doesn’t happen, we get Islamist apologists like Bunglawala, stoking up paranoia and fears of persecution doubtless in the hope that this will be prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Worse, it deliberately manipulates those whom it forbids from questioning what it does.

Meanwhile, 5,000 miles away in Egypt a mob of 20,000 Muslims…reallyk just a tiny minority… have cornered a Christian congregation inside a church and are chanting muslim religious slogans calling for their deaths.

Proving, as all the bien-pensants already know, that these events are mere politics, and have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

http://www.aina.org/news/20081126035704.htm

John P, please point to where I have denied the moral corruption of Islamism. Or stop lying.

Alec do you seriously think that the Koran of Islamism is different document when compared to the Koran the larger Muslim community uses?

Islamism isn’t a perverted and ocrrupted version of *pure* Islam, rather it is part and parcel of it, a completely legitimate and, dare I say, mainstream interpretation of ‘holy’ scripture.

Admitting that, acknowledging that, WITHOUT attacking or smearing rank and file Muslims is a step we need to take.

Theologically speaking, if I kill a Jew…and many Christians have… I am nonetheless in flagrant violation of Christian scripture

Bollocks. The anti-semitism in the Bible is vast and frightening.

And given how you’re a Catholic, you should be hiding your head in shame at the actions of “Pope” Pius – which you’ve still not shown the slightest remorse for.

From Anglican Friends of Israel, received this afternoon:

“Commandos Surround Chabad House
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu and Hana Levi Julian

“Sky News is reporting that two powerful explosions were heard an hour ago from the Nariman House building which houses Mumbai’s Chabad House, in India, where at least five Islamist terrorists are still holed up. It is believed that five Israelis are being held hostage.

“Hundreds of commandos have surrounded the building and have already killed one terrorist, but five others are still believed to be hiding in the building. Unconfirmed reports said that another terrorist at the nearby Taj Mahal Hotel may have been caught alive.

“Chabad-Lubavitch emissary Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka were both reported unconscious, as were several of the Israelis, according to a babysitter who managed to escape and called the family shortly after the siege began. The Foreign Ministry reported that between 10 and 15 Israelis believed to be in Mumbai, formerly known as Bombay, have not been reached and their whereabouts and condition are still unknown.

“Local police previously secured the release of the couple’s one and a half-year-old son Moshe, but both parents were still being held captive.

“Rivka Holtzberg’s father, Rabbi Shimon Rozenberg, is reportedly flying out to the scene. Rabbi Rozenberg is the principal of Migdal Ohr Girls’ High School in Migdal Emek, which was founded by his brother-in-law, Rabbi Yitzchak David Grossman, winner of the Israel Prize and numerous other public awards.

“A previously unknown Muslim terrorist group linked to the international Al Qaeda terrorist organization calling itself the Deccan Mujahedin claimed responsibility for the massive multi-site terror attack carried out late Wednesday night in the city formerly known as Bombay. Mumbai is home to some 15 million people and is India’s largest city.

“The terrorists struck two luxury hotels frequented by Americans and British nationals, the Taj Mahal Hotel and the Oberoi Hotel as well as the city’s largest train station, a movie theater and the Cama Hospital with automatic weapons and grenades. Intelligence sources said the level of sophisticated training and weapons employed by the terrorists made it clear that they were not local criminals. The terrorists were armed with AK-47 assault rifles and grenades.

“Also among the nine sites struck by the group throughout “the city that never sleeps” was the Chabad House, a popular stop for Israeli tourists passing through the area who are provided with kosher food and Jewish programs there.

“Three top police officials were among at least 101 dead in the attacks, including Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) Chief Hemant Karkare, Additional Commissioner Ashok Kamte and encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar, reported IBN News, which said Karkare had received death threats in phone calls at his home within the past several days.

“The terrorists have demanded that India release “all mujahedins,” and that “only after that will we release the people,” as they told a local television station. Several other Israelis have maintained telephone contact from their eighth-floor hotel rooms. The Chabad website reported that “the situation is grim.”

“American and British nationals were reportedly being separated out from among other foreigners and held as hostages, according to one British citizen who told Sky News television that he had watched as a gunman asked a group of some 40 hostages for their country of origin. Those who were from Italy, he said, were released, but British and American citizens were held.

“British European Parliament Member Sajjad Karim told the television network before his cell phone went dead that he was barricaded in a darkened restaurant in the basement of the Oberoi Hotel. “We are now in the dark in this room and we have barricaded all the doors. It’s really bad,” he said. Some 200 people were reported being held hostage at the Oberoi Hotel.

“It is also estimated that there are still between 45 to 50 hostages being held by the terrorists at the Taj Mahal Hotel. Five terrorists were reported dead and 14 police officers were killed as well in the exchange of gunfire at the hotel, where thick black smoke billowed from the windows on the upper floors.

“NDTV reported that Indian security officials believe the terrorists may have infiltrated into the city by sea. There is little regulation in the Bombay Harbor, noted the journalist in his report. Nariman House is located in the southern part of the city, along the water.”

On behalf of Neil, I’m closing the thread.