Harry’s Place

I really hope these reports are not true. Its the sort of thing that could raise intercommunal tensions in the UK and be exploited by far right nutters.

Wishing won’t make it so, everyone knows that Britain is in the world’s top 10 sources for Jihadi violence.

really hope that this report is not true.

I don’t think it makes much difference, it would be rather a dog bites man story.

Simply because we already know that there are 10s of thousands of potential British Jihadis, that there are and have been a goodly number of active Jihadis in the UK and abroad, and that the UK intelligence services are tracking some 2000 cells amongst the UK Ummah.

So far, I have only seen one photo of an AK47 wielding terrorist carrying a large rucksack. But what strikes me is that he looks extremely fit. He is wearing brand new hiking trousers and brand new shoes. His appearance suggests he has come straight from a training camp somehwere.
I have heard on the ORF News that the Indian Navy has seized two Pakistani merchant ships in connection with the investigation.

If it was true, I’m sure our foreign policy would, ultimately, be responsible.

Another UK security failure?? - Anti-terrorist forces too busy chasing Tory immigration spokespeople

Mumbai gunmen ‘British-born’?

Blimey.

I really hope that this report is not true.

Why?

Because it would a disgrace to this country, that we had exported terrorism to another.

‘British born’ can mean any number of things, David.

Can it? I can only think of one: ‘born in Britain’. What are the others?

It could mean born in Britain, but left as a baby and educated elsewhere etc, etc, etc….

The notion that if a terrorist was born in Britain it automatically means the country is disgraced for ‘exporting terrorism’ is somewhat tenuous.

Well, as I said, this is something that is being reported by an Indian station, and by the Press Association. Let’s see what we find out later.

If some of the terrorists are British-born, their presence in Mumbai does not mean that Britain exported them. It just means that Britain did not prevent them from going to Mumbai, and it is not entirely clear how Britain could have done that. Perhaps the point is just that Britain has allowed a flourishing Islamist culture to develop in various parts of the country. That would certainly seem to be a better point.

Maybe mad Mel ain’t so mad after all.

It will send Melanie Phillips into hysterics, anyway. I hope long suffering, urbane hubby Joshua Rosenberg is ready with reassuring words and a cup of tea.

How about updating your blog, Benjamin. You lazy fuck.

In this context, I mentally apply quotation marks to ‘British’.

A rabbi tells me that he was a rabbi in a synagogue with a large number of Mumbai Jews. He says the Jews chose to live in the Muslim quarter of the city because they felt more comfortable there.

Born in Britain, trained in Lahore.

Couple of the terrorists are interviewed on tv and their accents are not from South India which is what the Name Deccan Mujahideen suggests. It fits with Pakistani style of language:

http://ishare.rediff.com/filevideo-Terrorist-calling-himself-Sahadullah-%5C%5Cspe-id-519886.php

Probably the group includes jihadis from India, Pakistan etc, ie: A wide group from spread across the Ummah.

Tariq Ali has been already writing shameless apologia for this attack in counterpunch.org . For him it is because of poor Muslims facing persecution and Kashmir which is just about Army domination, rape and brutality, forgetting that the army only went into Kashmir after the jihadis ethnically cleansed most of the Hindus from the Kashmir Valley and murdered hundreds more.

A couple of the terrorists apparently had gotten jobs at one of the hotels and certainly it looks likely that many are Indians too.

We are told that hundreds of would-be jihadis are on the loose in Britain. That being the case, I wouldn’t be surprised that some of them are perpetrating the infamy in Mumbai.

I agree with Bob-B - the British government is so supine in the face of Islamism, for fear of backlash, that it no more use than a fat headache against any real threat.

I have heard that the Rabbi of the Jewish centre was among those shot. No confirmation as yet. What do people know about this?

B Kisan, “shameless” is definitely one word which could be applied to the shape-shifting of Tariq Ramadan.

Conspiracism sets in very quickly: Indeed. if you liked the theory linked to in another thread here that Israel is behind the Somali piracy, you will love this one about Mumbai:
http://ikhwanweb.com/Article.asp?ID=18774&SectionID=100

Mention of Mel prompted me to have a look at Mel’s column for the first time in ages, and find she has written a very apt account about BNP Barnes’ reversion to type on the Moral Maze.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3047201/reverting-to-type.thtml

We must remember that the religion of Islam is totally blameless in this situation. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. This is clearly a political disturbance. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Things must have reached a pity pass on CiF if the organ grinder of the MCB (Muhammud Abdul Bari) has a weasely article there rather than his monkey, Bunglythingy. Perhaps Bunglythingy can’t be trusted to address this in the right spirit.

But it looks like Bari is making a similar impression to Bungly. They sound like a double act - the Bungly and Bari show.

We should hold our horses until it is confirmed. It may not be true. In the iommediate aftermath of these situations there is too much confusion and things don’t become clear, suspicions become rumours, Chinese whispers.

If true though, it will be as big a low as 7/7. Speaking as a British Indian, it would probably be the final nail in the coffin in relations between a large number of British Indians and British Pakistanis.

If true, it would not be the first Pakistani British Jihadi to go out to India. One of the first guys to go along this road carried out a suicide bombing in Kashmir about 6 years ago. He was from Birmingham. And we know of course that the two suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel were from Hounslow and Derby (well, only the one from Hounslow succeeded, the other ones suicide belt failed to ignite and he was found floating in the sea a few days later)

British Indians will be asking how can we ever trust that some terrorists wouldn’t plan to go on a killing spree against Indians in say Belgrave Road Leicester, in Neasden or Southall Broadway.

These are fucking bleak times.

I really hope it IS true.

The reason being that I don’t think there will be any backlash against UK Muslims since there was none after 7/7. (And I sincerely hope there ISN’T any backlash.)

We have exported UK terrorist to Israel but we never learnt the lesson. In that respect the UK’s reputation has already been stained.

Importantly, if this were true then it forces us to confront Islamism and nascent terrorists in our midst more thoroughly and start to clean this up in some way.

Of course, we ALL wish its not true from the perspective of people who are citizens of our country undertaking the most barbaric atrocities. But I would also see it as a recognition of Government failure in trying to sanitise our threat from terrorism.

We KNOW and we have STATED so many times that ordinary Muslims will be equally abhorred by what is taking place and we do not cast them as being the problem. Better support of them is a solution.

Its a fine call whether being true or false makes the future better. SOmetimes, things have to get worse before getting better. Sometimes the boil must be lanced but the pain and clearup are worth it.

Yes this looks pretty grim. If it’s true it’s hardly surprising though.

Rather humiliating after everything else that’s happened in recent years.

How long before the usual suspects (Victoria Brittan, Michael Winterbottom et al) insist that the Mumbai Terrorists were wholesome British lads only looking for giant naan-breads in Mumbai?

One last thing, and I urge everyone to be cautious on this. Indian authorities often screw up immediately after a terrorist attack and are quick to assign blame. It is likely that there is a large Indian Muslim element to these terrorists, and chance suspicions are relayed as fact, especially if some find it too difficult to look at the internal mess that involved in this all. It’s not inconceivable. But I’m not convinced until we see the evidence.

“I really hope that this report is not true.”

Why?

“the other ones suicide belt failed to ignite and he was found floating in the sea a few days later”

Omar Khan Sharif: Allo mate! Look, sorry about not blowing mesself oop. I think there must ‘ave been a malfunction with t’suicide belt

Hamas handler: No, it looks ok to me. Are you sure you tried to set it off, brother?

Omar Khan Sharif: Oh yeah, definitely. Made a click and everything. Just can’t explain it.

Hamas handler: It doesn’t look like the button has been pressed, brother.

Omar Khan Sharif: Blimey. Must have reset itself or summat. Anyhow, can I go home now?

Hamas hander: Oh brother you will be “going home” very soon.

Omar Khan Sharif: Champion!

Everything is still in confusion in Mumbai.

The Indian security services seem to be making a real mess of the Taj Mahal hotel ‘liberation’. There are pictures from Sky news and it horrifies me that the action has not been completed. Estimations of 25 to 30 ‘freedom fighters’ seems to be accepted and how that many are managing to hold this hotel hostage bearing in mind that certainly not all of the “FF” went there, is astonishing.

India has a lot to learn about fighting terrorism. Sorry. Freedom Fighting.

I suggest that no speculation be made about the origin of the “FF” be made at the moment. It really is too early.

I have a thought. Perhaps those fighting for Human Rights might want the captured freedom fighters to be transferred to Guantanamo where an eye can be kept on the methods used to interrogate them. Of course, it may mean begging Obama NOT TO CLOSE GUANTANAMO but the valiant knights of righteousness really don’t know any bounds.

I for one, await with interest to see how quickly these FF reveal what everybody wants to know about how and where they were trained etc. I feel sure that the Indian Security Services will find the information out of them very quickly. It is one area where they may find themselves much more efficient than the CIA.

Bloody wall to wall on CNN/BBC/Al Jazeera etc.

Ben Brown is now in Mumbai, so it must be serious.

Richard Seymour’s post is good, but I disagree with his claim that this group like this has purely domestic origin. Even if there may be Indians in this group, the magnitude and organisation of the attacks suggests that it was influenced and perhaps organised by foreign groups, possibly linked to the Pakistani military (our supposed ally in the “war on terrorism”). The group is probably a composite of extremists from across South Asia, possibly recruited by Lashka-e-Toiba, and organised over the past few months for this one-off operation.

British Indians will be asking how can we ever trust that some terrorists wouldn’t plan to go on a killing spree against Indians in say Belgrave Road Leicester, in Neasden or Southall Broadway.

Pablo, you may say its bleak times but unfortunately the potential for attacks in the UK was as true last week as you suggest it might be in the future.

If this forces us all to confront the terrorists in our midst then let today be the day we seriously approach this. Jews in the UK have had to step up security in schools and synagogues because of threats from those who closely identify with the Palestinians by religion. But, thankfully, there hasn’t been an atrocity. Yes there are individual acts of attacks on Jews based on this hatred.

I suppose we can all go back and quote Enoch Powell and his Rivers of Blood and reflect that we have that potential but it is inherently British not to let that spill onto the streets. Howevever, when some people in Britain DON’T feel British or hate the idea they identify with being British then we have a problem. That is why cultural integration is so important.

For what its worth I perceive that the integration of Hindus and Sikhs into Britain has been a success, much like the integration of Jews. Its not from these communities that we perceive the danger coming from.

Let’s hope that we can hold it together.

If I were an agent in India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), I’d be on the blower to the BBC asking them for a list of the people they’ve taken paintballing recently.

“The Indian security services seem to be making a real mess of the Taj Mahal hotel ‘liberation’. There are pictures from Sky news and it horrifies me that the action has not been completed.”

How long did it take the Germans to liberate the Israeli Olympic team in the 1972 Olympics? They didn’t. All the hostages died in a botched rescue attempt.

I don’t think anyone can lecture to the Indians about how they were unprepared for this extraordinary event in a developing country that is vast and lacks resources.

“India has a lot to learn about fighting terrorism.”

It has been fighting terrorism since independence from many fronts: Assam, Punjab, Naxalites, Tamil Tigers, etc, etc, as well as the communal pogroms against Sikhs and Muslims and the odd invasion by Pakistan. And still the country has survived as a secular democracy.

Omar Khan Sharif: Champion!

………. and as Israeli security approach him….

Omar Khan Sharif: Great beaches you got here mate!

Mossad: Why you still got your jacket on when its at least 35 degrees (C)

Omar Khan Sharif: I come from Bradford and its very warm there. Anyway, its my life-jacket in case I go in the water.

Mossad: What a good idea. Boom…..

………… a few days later at the Omar Khan Sharif home….

Wife: I know he wrote a suicide note and said he was off to Israel to blow up Jews - but I didn’t think it was anything serious.

Here we go again: suspension of sensible debate giving way to anti-Muslim hysteria and bigotry. I’m off.

If I were an agent in India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), I’d be on the blower to the BBC asking them for a list of the people they’ve taken paintballing recently.

Brilliant!!!

It also seems like Ch4 “Make Me a Muslim” was a few episodes short. Now, had they collaborated with BBC …………

“No, Amanda you don’t want to get the colour of the wires mixed up….”

(with apologies that parody sometimes goes too far)

I agree Dan. I come to this site because I hate islamism and understand that its victims a lot of the time are othrer muslims and yet again end up reading a load of sneery bullshit that is basically saying ‘all muslims are the same’. Racism is racism is chuffing racism, happen as nobbut, and what’s all this bloody northernism creeping in now as well?

Here we go again: suspension of sensible debate giving way to anti-Muslim hysteria and bigotry. I’m off.

Your certainly are ‘off’. We make it plain that we aren’t demonising Muslims and that we accept that these terrorists embarrass the vast majority of Muslims.

But if terrorists didn’t unite themselves by their Islamic faith and discovering permission in the Koran and Hadith’s for their actions then we wouldn’t have anything to say.

Ignoring that Radical Islamist Jihad is a problem will only allow it to flourish. We have to smash/stop it - or at least isolate it from causing us harm. We have to do these things to protect our own Muslim citizens from a feeling of isolation and despair. But NOT talking about it or discussing it isn’ an option.

BTW - when the BBC mentions “Jewish Settlers” in its news output do you feel disgust that this is demonising ALL Jews? Don’t you think that we can distinguish between the actions of nutters and the morals of most Jews?

Shall we protest to the BBC that they must use “Israeli Settlers” in future? I think we don’t bother because we are smart enough to work it out for ourselves.

Radio FM4’s ‘Reality Check’ prog’s parrot in Bombay reporting strong possibility of a ‘Mumbai/Karachi Muslim Mafia - Pakistan Kashmir FF’ operation. Hardly a “Welcome brother British Islamist’ nidus if this the case.

Just to reiterate: The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. It’s a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage who actually commit atrocities like Mumbai. This in NO WAY reflects poorly on the religion of Islam as a whole.

Maven, there is denial amongst everyone. There is denial in the British Pakistani community (and wider Muslim community) about the extent of the problem amongst some of them.

There is fear and denial amongst British Indians for a number of reasons:

(1) Genuine Muslim hating bigots gaining supremacy amongst Indians who are usually the most ‘identity politics’ lunatics themselves

(2) Fear of a backlash from white racists will fall on us as well because anyone who ‘looks’ Asian is vulnerable to attack

(3) Just plain fear of facing up to the horrible truth that some Brit Pakistanis have gone down this route

So there are a mixture of factors as to why some Indians are in denial about this in the UK. Remember Indians are only about 1 % or 1.5% of the population therefore they are susceptible to the fears, contradictions, defensiveness of any minority, especially when hostility can seem general and there are misunderstandings.

I just know though that if it is true that there are Brit Pakistanis involved in this, on a grassroots level, the atmosphere amongst ‘Asians’ will change in some direction.

For a long long time you couldn’t even say any of this without being labelled a ‘communalist’. For what it’s worth, I hate Hindu and Sikh communalists as much as I hate the BNP, they’re all a bunch of twats. But this fear is being expressed by Indians who don’t have an iota of bigotry in them.

Surely even racists and bigots are, by now, capable of distinguishing between hatred for Muslims specifically and South Asians generally.

I doubt whether most BNPers have any understanding of identity politics and militancy in any other South Asian group other than Muslims, though.

For what its worth I perceive that the integration of Hindus and Sikhs into Britain has been a success, much like the integration of Jews. Its not from these communities that we perceive the danger coming from.

Indeed, and Britain is much the richer for having said peeps here and becoming another ingredient in Britain.

I remember being extremely impressed when visiting a Hindu Temple a while back. Lovely BRITISH people and they had British Flags flying on top (and I was told they sung the National Anthem on occasion).

Someone tell me why we’ve had to put up with adherents of a certain other religion who have no interest in being British or have any loyalty to this country instead of the Salt of the Earth in the British Hindu Community?

It has been fighting terrorism since independence from many fronts: Assam, Punjab, Naxalites, Tamil Tigers, etc, etc, as well as the communal pogroms against Sikhs and Muslims and the odd invasion by Pakistan. And still the country has survived as a secular democracy.

All of that is true. But it’s a patchy record. There has been complicity and laxness in tackling majoritarianism at points.

Everyone is talking about this theory and that theory. It could be Indian jihadis, Pakistani jihadis, Muslim mafia based in Karachi, Kashmiris etc etc. Look, the truth is that it’s probably been facilitated by a number of casually interlinked networks. A Muslim underworld don just wants to get paid. He spends his life banging Bollywood starlets and snorting cocaine in Dubai. But if he’s asked for his street soldiers in Mumbai to facilitate this operation, his goons at the dock to turn a blind eye when they come in on boats, and he’s paid enough, and given protection and blessings from some jihadi overlords, then everyone is happy. If they trained teenage boys to use AK 47s in some camp in Pakistan on a hush hush basis with al Qaeda sympathisers, then what’s the problem? If some lads from Bradford or Small Heath tag along after being indoctrinated, who loses out? There is certainly plenty to brainwash them with. Indian Muslims have been persecuted horrendously in the last 6 years especially in the state of Gujarat. Let me tell you something Hindu nationalists are scary, even to Hindus.

The distinguishing feature of this is how they player hunt-the-Jew in Mumbai, as well as kill the Indians, and find the Brits and Maericans. That just proves they had intent to target and send a message out to the world. This wasn’t the usual ‘lets plant a bomb on a train and kill Hindus’ kind of mission. They wanted to attack India and the westerners in India. All of these parts of Mumbai are cosmopolitan and it’s a message against India’s liberalisation and links to the West as much as anything else.

Bastards.

sorry for the typos above

player = played and Maericans = Americans

To be fair, Maven is a bit borderline sometimes.

Let’s not forget the Hindu fascists directly responsible for the ongoing genocide of Christians mainly in Orissa. To date, they have been responsible for the deaths of more Indians than the Bombay attacks.

Bajrang Dal and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, whose ultimate founders are affiliated with the VHP are ultra-nationalist groups responsible for the ongoing murder, rape and pillage of Christian minorities in India, most acutely in the state of Orissa.

The UK government claim that these groups do not support terrorism. Why then have those responsible for the anti-Christian attacks been given succour, tarining and education by these groups?

Should UK citizens who believe in the doctrine of Bharatiyata or Indian-ness be allowed to invite and sponsor individuals and groups directly or indirectly responsible for anti-Christian activities in India?

Can one support the concept of Hindu purity/Hindutva and not be labelled with the ‘racist’ tag?

Let’s also not forget the celebration of terrorism by elected MPs and ex-pat Tamils in the UK at the obscenely named Heroes’ Day at the Excel centre.

I wonder if this is what our cloned representatives mean when urge us to ‘celebrate diversity’?

I recognise that these atrocities have not the support of Muslims everywhere but:

For every Islamist outrage there have to be organisers, suppliers, fixers, supporters and handlers, as well as people within their communities who know about what is being planned but do nothing to stop it. Let’s get real and admit that this happens.

We have to address this and act against those people (without whom the terrorist acts would be well-nigh impossible) as well as the perpetrators themselves.

Benjamin

“It will send Melanie Phillips into hysterics, anyway. I hope long suffering, urbane hubby Joshua Rosenberg is ready with reassuring words and a cup of tea.”

For all her faults Melanie Phillips has more balls, intelligence, insight and integrity in her toenail than you have the length of your pathetic self, Benjamin. I say that as someone who disagrees with at least 50% of what she has to say. But…she actually has something to say.

So do piss off somewhere else (be it the SWP or whatever agency will have you).

Back on topic, I suspect the Indians will get to the bottom of who the perps are rather quickly. I do not believe that torture has quite the same stigma attached there as it might do over here (where we are more squeamish so pop our suspects over to Eastern Europe for a bit of work).

Of course, sadly - their identity will mean/change nothing, British or not. Given our huge Pakistani population it is inevitable that the perpetrators of such attacks will sometimes/often be of British origin. On that topic, what Melanie Phillips said was, of course, perfectly correct.

MattG

Let me tell you something Hindu nationalists are scary, even to Hindus.

That’s true. Those fuckers hate everyone. Nobody gets a pass. Not Christians, Jews, and especially not Muslims.

I doubt whether most BNPers have any understanding of identity politics and militancy in any other South Asian group other than Muslims, though.

They do though. They’ve been using the anti-Muslim rhetoric of Khalistani and Hindu extremists. To their credit though, whoever Griffin has been speaking to from amongst them have been too scared to do so publically, apart from a senile old man who suffered during partition. Even those twats know the BNP for what they are. But the point is, these ‘hatreds’ fester and feed on each other. Some Muslim fundamentalists make common cause with Nazis and promote Nazi screeds for goodnesss sake, because of their shared hatred of Jews!

I wonder if this is what our cloned representatives mean when urge us to ‘celebrate diversity’?

No, it’s not what they mean when they say that.

Let’s not forget the Hindu fascists directly responsible for the ongoing genocide of Christians mainly in Orissa.

Oppression against Christian minorities is routinely ignored right across the political spectrum. The terrible conditions they face in the middle east, for instance - far worse than Muslims in Europe - is not covered anywhere.

I think because it’s primarily a western religion it’s seen as a taboo subject.

Yes, I remember the BNPTV show well. Utterly tragic.

The woman who presented that show has just been unmasked by the Daily Mail - as a drama teacher.

The assumption, I think, is that Christians and Jews - whatever their situation, wherever they are, no matter their cultural or economic background - are rich and powerful.

“All of these parts of Mumbai are cosmopolitan…”

This is misleading. Whilst there may be many thousands of non-Indians in India at any one time, the restrictions placed on them by Indian law in terms of marriage, property ownership, investment etc. makes any claim to ‘cosmopolitanism’ metaphorically skin deep. India may advertise itself as a tolerant liberal democracy, but its policies towards minorities and the bigotry of many of its inhabitants belie any claim to the contrary.

I wonder if Gandhi-ji were he alive today, whether when reflecting on saying that ‘India is for the Indians…England is for the English’, he would feel a sense of irony as he witnesses the colonisation of the country he railed against and the erection of a statue in his honour there by fascists who support the Hinduisation of India.

While dismissing the idiot Benjamin, I did intend to post the following link as an example of what I was talking about:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3047201/reverting-to-type.thtml

In case anyone missed the programme or is interested she debates/scraps with the ‘Legal Director’ of the BNP.

Matt

Yusuf, it’s not misleading. Mumbai is a cosmopolitan city. It has always been the New York of India, where people escape from and dream of a better life. That it has been tainted by sectarianism doesn’t extinguish that. As for Gandhi, well he was assasintaed by Hindu extremists who saw him as being soft on Muslims and betraying the ‘Hindu nation’. That problem of Hindu extremism has always been present.

I really hope these reports are not true. Its the sort of thing that could raise intercommunal tensions in the UK and be exploited by far right nutters.

Not a chance in hell that it could raise awareness of Islamist terror by far left nutters of course.

Oh yeah by the way Yusuf, it wasn’t misleading. Go down to Colaba and the waterfront and you’ll see Westerners mingling with Indians. The Leopold Cafe was targetted because Americans, Brits, Europeans and Israeli people chill out there alongside Indians. It’s in the Lonely Planet guide to Mumbai. That area of Mumbai is where businessmen and tourists and backpackers and the curious hang out together. That’s the area of Mumbai I was talking about. That’s why these evil little cunts decided to attack people there, as well as the railway station where 9 to 5 Indians were catching trains home.

One other thing. Loads of Israelis backpack and visit India, not just young people and hippy types, but middle age people on package holidays to Goa. I can see them being targetted by jihadis just like they were in Mombasa in Kenya a few years back, or like Westerners were targetted in Bali.

Apparently a Mauritius National is one of the Jihadis:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Fire_breaks_out_at_Taj_again_more_hostages_rescued/articleshow/3768265.cms

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=2e424b81-7858-43f8-98a5-b6a102eb8808Mumbaiunderattack_Special&MatchID1=4858&TeamID1=1&TeamID2=5&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1224&MatchID2=4862&TeamID3=9&TeamID4=8&MatchType2=2&SeriesID2=1225&PrimaryID=4858&Headline=Two+terrorists+captured+are+British+nationals%3a+Reports

I said above the attackers were likely to be from all over the ummah. Could be confirmed as we go forward.

“a dog bites man story”

I don’t know. A British anti-imperialist terror attack in India is pretty ironic ain’t it?

The reality is that Britain’s unhealthy version of a multicultural society is quickly becoming one of the greatest terrorist threats to global liberalism.

Just checked. Doesn’t mention Mauritius in the H Times story. Must have read it somewhere else (as well as in the Times of India piece).

Oops, it does say it in the last sentence. I’ll shut up now after sending two unnecessary posts.

BBC News on line at 13:31: “Five people have been killed at Nariman House, India’s Times Now channel reports. National Security Guards chief JK Dutt says militants killed three hostages and fled. Commandos killed two militants, he adds.”

This seems to tie in with what SayWhat?? mentions above, that the Rabbi and his wife had been killed, but this remains to be confirmed also.

According to the Daily Mail

“firebrand British-based Muslim preacher Anjem Choudhary backed the terrorists and said any Britons killed or held hostage were legitimate targets because they should not have gone to India.

“Choudhary, right-hand man to preacher of hate Omar Bakri, said Britain and America is at war with the Muslim world and their citizens must keep off the battlefield.

‘Muslims are being killed in Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan every day through acts of atrocity against them. But the media only report events like Mumbai.’

Chouhdary is sounding increasingly deranged these days. And at the same time he is the self styled chairman of the Society of Muslim Lawyers, ‘Judge of the Shari’ah Court of the UK’, ‘Principal Lecturer at the London School of Shari’ah’ and ‘Judge of the Shari’ah Court of the UK’.(wikipedia)

What does a guy have to do to get arrested? Be Damien Green and report embarrassing facts about the Home Office I suppose.

For all her faults Melanie Phillips has more balls, intelligence, insight and integrity in her toenail than you have the length of your pathetic self, Benjamin.

If you say so, old boy. Although I have not had the dubious pleasure of examining her toenail.

MattG- I recommended Mel’s BNP post at 11.30 am above. I had long given up reading Mel but had another look after you mentioned her.

“Yusuf, it’s not misleading. Mumbai is a cosmopolitan city.”

Okay. Fair enough. I’ll agree that even its origins are cosmopolitan what with being a Portuguese settlement and all. But, aside from the non-insular gait of many of its inhabitants and the expensive beverages that they quaff, one cannot IMHO equate cosmopolitanism Bombay-style to its London or New York counterparts: one can theoretically marry, invest, purchase property and adopt if one is a citizen non-native of these cosmopolitan metropoli; the same cannot be said of non-native inhabitants of Bombay, where just gaining Indian citizenship (in what is after all the 4/5th largest global economy) is nigh on impossible.

So now anything goes – and our society is steadily going, as a result. Polyandry, polyamory, polygamy, polymorphism – can paedophilia, necrophilia and bestiality be far behind?

A corker from Mel. Did you agree or disagree with that one MattG? ;-)

“The Irish are the only pure race in the world.” At least, that was the opinion of an elderly woman who shouted insults at a (handsome) black man at Hyde Park Corrner. He spoke with great irony about being ‘British’ and she yelled, “Filthy nigger, black shit” etc. etc. At one point he said, “Come on! All you want to do is sleep with me.” A huge grin appeared on her face.

There is more depth to this anecdote than meets the eye, but I’m writing, really, to ask a question, rather than make a statement. In the Trattoria where I often have lunch, there was this most exquisite of people, blond as though he came from Sweden, but he was a Muslim from one of those ex-Yugoslavian countries. He couldn’t have been a more civilised person; charming, friendly, kindly and considerate. I would have left the keys of my flat with him if the need had arisen. Lo and behold, one day, he said that if he didn’t have a family, he would have been prepared to fly a plane into the twin towers: I couldn’t have been more horrified. But do I erase him from my list of eligible human beings? I decided to hate the Muslim side of his character and to remain faihful to the rest of him. Had I seen him more often I would have discussed and asked him a lot of questions. I find asking a lot of questions quite a good technique. With them I managed to deflate a group of South Africans white racists shouting insults from train windows at black workers on the railway line. I might have been lynched.

What - if anything - do you think about the blond Muslim? For me it is not an easy question to answer, unless one is a hide-bound ideologist.

People more imtelligent than he have cancers in their souls - Ezra Pound, Gottfried Benn, until the Naziz banned his poetry, Rudof Borchardt, a great German Jeiwsh poet, who supported the Nazis until he realised what they thought of him. On the other hand, Stefan George, who was arch conservative and whose last volume of poetry was called The New Reich, when he was invited to be the Nazis poet laureate, packed his bags and went to Switzerland. Hitler and friends did not measure up to his idea of an elite German culture.- Not may people seem to know that Heinrich Heine, prophesied the Nazis about a hundred years before they appeared. He wrote an essay warning the French, saying that when the still dormant monster in Germany woke up, they would see horrors such as the world had never seen before.

I have gone a bit off thread, but not really.

P.S. If I had thought the blond Muslim was involved in nasty activities, I would have gone to the police.

Yusuf, Mumbai has been the centre of ethnic politics because Maharashtrians (those of the region Mumbai is based in) have long resented their marginalisation in the city by outsiders. Hence the bewlidering restrictions, bureaucracy, and by-laws created in the city, reflective of the inefficiency and trade offs brought about as various groups jostle for space and rights in India. That’s just the way it is. At a grassroots level it is a cosmopolitan city with a spirit of contestation in the face of adversity. It sounds like you just don’t like India in general and have an itchy arse over the issue. All the bigots who reside in the city will agree with you, and hope that that cosmopolitanism is snuffed out too.

What this has to do with matherfucker machine gunning commuters, children in restaurants, and rabbis in a Jewish centre I don’t know.

Someone tell me why we’ve had to put up with adherents of a certain other religion who have no interest in being British or have any loyalty to this country instead of the Salt of the Earth in the British Hindu Community?

Politicians often don’t make sense, Morgoth.

I think The West’s immigration policies are good on the whole, but I think…and I don’t care if this sounds ‘racist’… that there should be a complete halt to Muslim immigration.

Yes, most Muslims are peaceful and most are not terrorists or jew-killers (blah, blah, blah), but such twadle is largely irrelevant and changes nothing of the fact that apart from a few Tamil Tigers and Peru’s Shining Path ( both local *struggles*), practially all of the world’s terrorists belong to the Muslim faith.

And Islam is the only faith…they say they’re ‘Abrahamic’… that encourages its followers to stand in deliberate disobediance to several of The Ten Commandments whenever it is useful to do so.

Therefore, it only stands to reason that the larger the Muslims commmunity becomes, the more terror cells you’re going to have.

It’s unfortunate that we have to punish the majority for the actions of an exctremely violent and bloodthirsty minority, but what other options do we have?

Not more than 20% of The West’s Muslim community would ever commit terrorist acts or aid and abett those who would.

So we’ve a revolver with ten chambers, two of which contain bullets, and we’re playing immigration russian roulette.

I meant the Muslim fundamentalist side of his character, not the Muslim side etc.

MITNAGED

JK Dutt says militants killed three hostages and fled. Commandos killed two militants, he adds.”

If that is true, India will become the laughing stock of the world. I mean that they were ‘allowed’ to flee the scene.

Further update from BBC on line:

“1355 The bodies of five hostages were recovered from the Jewish centre in Nariman House after it was stormed by Indian commandos, AFP news agency quotes an Israeli diplomat as saying.”

“1355 The bodies of five hostages were recovered from the Jewish centre in Nariman House after it was stormed by Indian commandos, AFP news agency quotes an Israeli diplomat as saying.”

Somehow, no matter where Muslims are, no matter what their alleged grievence, it always comes down to hating and killing Jews. That any Western country would permit these latter-day Nazis to immigrate is an example of Jew-hatred at its most blatant.

‘A corker from Mel. Did you agree or disagree with that one MattG? ;-)’

Keep up Benji, you fucking goat. Matt said he disagreed with 50% of what she says.

Back on topic, I suspect the Indians will get to the bottom of who the perps are rather quickly. I do not believe that torture has quite the same stigma attached there as it might do over here

Right, er, just because someone claims they did something whilst being tortured doesn’t actually mean they did it. Yes there is rightful squemishness in the UK regarding torture, but an added problem is whether it actually works

Hello Felix!!!

Matt said he disagreed with 50% of what she says.

Er, yes, and that’s why I asked whether he agreed or disagreed with that, old boy.

Just perused the Guardian front page on Mumbai and … you may not believe this … it manages to describe the latest events in several hundred words without once using the ‘I’ word or the ‘M’ word.

I may be wrong however. Whilst reading I was being overcome by the usual wave of nausea that now engulfs me now when I’m within 20 feet of anything in that paper, bar the sport section or Mr Brooker.

Five dead at Chabad house - so far http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041834.html

Daily mail says two British terrorist arrested/captured http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1089711/Massacre-Mumbai-BRITISH-gunmen-seized-commando-raid-death-toll-hits-140.html

I don’t think we should become to exercised about origins of terrorists. We now know the British Muslims are more than capable of turning to terrorism,Richard Reid, Mikes bar bombers and 7/7 bombers et al - its clear that Radical islam is attractive to some Muslims around the world - its an ideology unconstrained by geography or borders.

We should be much more focused on the destination of the terrorists - body bags for them all.

“Just perused the Guardian front page on Mumbai and … you may not believe this … it manages to describe the latest events in several hundred words without once using the ‘I’ word or the ‘M’ word.”

The main Mail story is largely the same, until very low-down it refers to the claim of responsibility by the Deccan Mujhadeen. Maybe this is because it is the business of news journalists to report the facts, ie what is actually currently known about these events and the people that have perpetrated them, rather than descend into speculation.

Obama said he would consider bombing the Al Qaeda terrorists from Pakistan. I say “Bring it On!”. Or will he bottle out because he can’t prove that the Mumbai Terrorists are Al Qaeda.

I hope Gene supports this action. After all if you support Obama you have to go the whole nine yards! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6926663.stm

Mavern - one of the (many) reason I supported Obama was precisely because he wanted to refocus war on terror on Al Qaeda.

“Right, er, just because someone claims they did something whilst being tortured doesn’t actually mean they did it. Yes there is rightful squemishness in the UK regarding torture, but an added problem is whether it actually works”

Herman, I agree with you. Im not really in favour of such torture, but it is a fact that we in the UK are (rightly) reluctant to use it and that the Indians may not share that reluctance.

However I believe that the Indians will know who the perpetrators are of the atrocities, regardless of whatever info they may or may not garner from torture - particularly if it is true that not one but several prisoners have been taken.

Matt

I simply note the HP tag on this article is “War etc” whereas yesterday the tag on the “Terrorism in Mumbai” was “Islamism”

Is this a subtle move away from your definition of “Liberty………..”?

The BBC simply refers to the murderous bastards as Gunmen

Well i reckon the couple of terrorists they caught alive must be Indian, otherwise they would have told us by now.

I think I can solve this.

“The Indian security services seem to be making a real mess of the Taj Mahal hotel ‘liberation’. ” – Clap Hammer.

From your own experience tell us, how would you have gone about it? Jet some white skinned heroes in from the USA? That would that be Bruce, Steven, Sly and Vin? Have the whole thing done before you could say “Bollocks”.

It’s been a very difficult operation for the Indian security forces.

Unfortunately, if this happened in the UK - and worryingly, the precident has now been set for this type of attack - the police response would be the subject of just as much controversy as the terror attack itself.

People can’t handle the concept of a war type situation in their own city and find solace in blaming for the police for this rather than the terrorists.

I don’t think there will be national outrage if it turns out an Indian security guy has accidently killed a hostage in the confusion of the rescue effort. Here, however, we’d never hear the end of it.

Like this

Mike - even with our experience we still managed to kill an innocent. The truth is that given nature of modern cities in the free world, a small band of determined terrorists can wreak enormous havoc before police/army can respond.

I simply note the HP tag on this article is “War etc” whereas yesterday the tag on the “Terrorism in Mumbai” was “Islamism”

Is this a subtle move away from your definition of “Liberty………..”?

The tagging of posts come from the evolution of categories over years by the former, and current, contributors. A contributor writes the post and then looks for an appropriate category for it to go in. I choose “Islamism” because there was a potential for the attackers being Islamists, and then went looking for “Terror”. We don’t have a category for Terror, so I left it at the one category. War etc is a perfectly acceptable category though, given we are engaged in a war with a non-state actor.

You really shouldn’t read to much into how contributors to the blog chose the categories, it is a momentary decision and some of the contributors are constrained by the available gategories. If you start to think policies are being made by the choice of category, or that the choice has disguished meanings or is an attempt to influence opinion, then it is only a short journey to thinking that hidden messages using a complex mathematical cypher are contained with the blog posts.

That way leads to MADNESS!

David T, yes, like that. :-)

A pal in downtown Allahabad just confirmed my suspicions: the two Brit-Paki jihadists were in actual fact George Galloway and Russell Brand.

No, like this.

The Israelis have commented that the Indian commandos appear to have gone in without gathering and assessing the available intelligence in full first, hence the greater possibility of errors on the ground in freeing hostages. This is of course precisely the reason why the Met Police managed to kill Jean Charles de Menezes in London.

In a war type situation there will be mistakes.

Recently there was a doc on BBC2 about an amazing rescue operation that I had never heard about before. It was Israel busting out hostages in Uganda. Unfortunately they killed a hostage during that one too.

Incredible story though.

You’ve never heard of Entebbe before?

choice has disguished meanings or is an attempt to influence opinion, then it is only a short journey to thinking that hidden messages using a complex mathematical cypher are contained with the blog posts

Neil D, understood and out!

Yes, as long both the girls are in agreement.

No more than £500.

Will steak & chips be OK tonight?

I prefer red.

Love you too!

You’ve never heard of Entebbe before?

“Raid on Entebbe” and “Delta Force” two of my favourites. (along with “Starship Troopers”)

It’s not something that gets much coverage.

If it really is all about Kashmir, then those demanding an ethnically pure yet also fiercely Islamic secession from a multiethnic democracy should simply declare UDI. After all, that was what Kosovo did.

How come there was not a word when the Mumbai Jumbais killed any number of Muslims in Gujarat, or even now as they are killing any number of Christians in Orissa? On the contrary, the BJP is being treated as an honoured participant in the current hand-wringing.

But then, we now have to treat as such Sinn Fein, the UDP (the UDA gone Marxist in prison, after the prison tutors’ own Marxism had become cultural rather than economic), the PUP (the UVF gone Marxist in prison, after the prison tutors’ own Marxism had become cultural rather than economic), Respect (Trots and Islamists gathered around an Old Labour Catholic who must wonder what on earth he has got himself into), and doubtless also the BNP once it has the Strasbourg seats that it will be picking up in June. Incidentally, no such high threshold was imposed before the UDP and the PUP were admitted to polite society; Sinn Fein and Respect, I admit, have representation at Westminster.

How long before a Hindutva party is picking up council seats here (the Tories are openly recruiting Labour members and supporters of Indian extraction of that basis, and the Lib Dems are probably also doing so), and presuming to rename Leicester as it has already renamed Bombay, Calcutta and Madras?

Or, indeed, a Khalistan party? Seeing Manmohan Singh on television reminded me of the missed opportunity that was the recent refusal, at the insistence of the Equality Commission, to create a proposed Sikh Regiment of the British Army, a scheme which had the very strong support of the Sikh community. That community has been very pointedly rebuffed. That rebuff will not be forgotten.

And if the Bombay attacks turn out not to have been motivated by Islam after all (although by then we will already have bombed to smithereens Pakistan, and probably also Iran as if she could have anything more to do with a Salafi or Deobandi group than Ba’athist Iraq could have had to do with a Wahhabi group), then they will turn out to have been motivated by some or other form of Marxism, probably Maoism, and in that case specifically the Naxalites.

Well, we were all supposed to have been delighted when a long-running Maoist insurrection finally overthrew the King of Nepal. So are we then going to invade Nepal? And what of the President of the European Commission, who has never said that his own Maoist insurrection in Portugal was wrong at the time?

And what is this “Mumbai”? The reason why I don’t write, say, “Peking” is, among other things, because at least “Beijing” is what the Chinese themselves call it.

By contrast, the rendition of Bombay as “Mumbai” is mercifully repudiated both by that city’s High Court and by its Stock Exchange. For the forces behind that and other such innovations are seriously nasty.

“Al-BBC”, say the neocons.

Not a bit of it, if this is anything to go by.

Rather (and following on from “Myanmar”, making the BBC the Trumpet of the Burmese Junta), we have the BBC, Voice of the BJP and the RSS.

Et tu, Harry? Et tu, David T?

Can David Lindsay string together even one coherent paragraph? I guess this is what happens when you lead a political party of 1.

Off thread, but I’m following all the news and opinions about Mumbai.

Hello David! A Jewish friend of mine, whom I will call Moses, has expelled me from Judaism. Maybe I will just sit, a stranger, in the corner of a synagogue on the Sabbath. You don’t believe in God and you can still be Jewish. It’s unfair.

I’m probably a fish out of water on HP but I find it interesting and on my Forest of Arden Shakespeare site I can’t mention words like Hitler, Stalin, communism, capitalism etc., no matter what I say about them, without elicting screaming attacks of rage. On HP I can.

Someone has called Benjamin a “fucking goat” without justification. I mean, wait until he really treads on your toes! I always look out for his mail.

“The BBC simply refers to the murderous bastards as Gunmen”

To be fair so does David T in the head of this post. I don’t get this obsession with using or not using the word “terrorist”, I think readers are intelligent enough to see actions for what they are morally without the cognitive crutch of more pejorative language.

Felix, you’ll enjoy it here. If you’re clubbable, it is very genial.

Or, indeed, a Khalistan party? Seeing Manmohan Singh on television reminded me of the missed opportunity that was the recent refusal, at the insistence of the Equality Commission, to create a proposed Sikh Regiment of the British Army, a scheme which had the very strong support of the Sikh community. That community has been very pointedly rebuffed. That rebuff will not be forgotten.

Who the hell are you? Where the hell do you get the idea that you can speak for Sikhs? ‘That rebuff will not be forgotten’? Shut the fuck up you ignorant moron.

Here’s the news. There is no such thing as a Khalistan party in this country and there never will be. That whole issue is dead save for a few loudmouth activists. What fucking planet are you on? You shirt stirring hate mongering twat. Sikhs don’t have grievances against the British state in the way you’re trying to make out. Next time you see a royal visiting a Sikh temple take notice of the Union Jacks fluttering everywhere and in the hands of children you moron.

‘Rebuff will not be forgotten’ my ass.

Seriously, who the hell is this demented David Lindsay moron? Is he with the Respect Party lunatics?

Because it would a disgrace to this country, that we had exported terrorism to another.David T.

Naw, Britian’s shame lay not in what she has exported, but rather in what she has foolishly imported.

There are probably 1000s of Muslims, many of them foreign-born, living in Britian who cheer on these attacks, and who may even be thinking of some copy-cat antics.

So call me a racist and call it a day.

After reading the reports of how the jihadists shot people at random, I was struck by the similarities with the Université de Montréal massacres in which 14 young women were randomly murdered nearly 20 years ago.

In that tragedy a frustrated Muslim male ( his name WASN’T Marc Lepine) screamed koranic slogans and shot at any women he came across.

This came on the heels of the Rushdie affair.

And instread of investigating what motivated such sick actions, the authorities and media simply labelled the jihadist “Marc Lepine” (a far more comfortable moniker, but one which he had long since ceased to use)) and then tore a strip off all the innocent, straight, white, Judea-Christian males who owned guns.

It was hilarious given the gravity of the crime.

Pablo, you’re cool. But don’t lose it over David Lindsay. He is not to be taken seriously.

John P - just wondering if you know any Muslims?

Pablo, you’re cool. But don’t lose it over David Lindsay. He is not to be taken seriously.

OK mate, I’ll ignore him.

I just don’t like it when people come out with bizarre crap like that and sound like they mean it. I especially hate it when white people start speaking on behalf of minorities, as if they are a big undifferentiated mass of seagulls or something, especially when what they say is a bit deranged, without any individuation or just full of armchair knowledge and twitterings.

“There is no such thing as a Khalistan party in this country”

There is, although it might have gone into something of an abeyance. Anyway, who knows what views are propagated within the mainstream parties in certain areas? Actually, regular readers of this site are among those who DO know about some of them.

“That whole issue is dead save for a few loudmouth activists”

Who can do a lot of harm.

And it’s as good as dead in Punjab, yes. But Cameron has been offering to let “local community leaders” set public holidays, and then who knows what else. Who are these “local community leaders”? People will flock from all over the world to the little Caliphates, Hindutvas and Khalistans that they will be permitted to create in return for getting out the vote for the Bullingdon Boys.

“Sikhs don’t have grievances against the British state”

The British State seems determined that they should have, though.

“Next time you see a royal visiting a Sikh temple take notice of the Union Jacks fluttering everywhere and in the hands of children”

Welll, that happens everywhere that the Royals go, of course.

But the undoubtedly real patriotism among British Sikhs was recently offered a very concrete and permanent institutional expression, very much in conformity to Sikh history and culture. It was turned down for PC reasons.

Which is no way to treat people who have come up with a very concrete and permanent institutional expression of their British patriotism, very much in conformity to their history and culture.

Don’t blame me. I think it’s a great idea.

And it is beyond me why a Sikh is so happy about the failure to condemn BJP/RSS violence alongside this, or about the treatment of the BJP as an acceptable party at all, never mind in this sort of context.

And I’m not white. I’m not Sikh, either. But I’m not white.

If Azzam Tamini can be considered white, you definitely are also, David.

Before this thread is closed, let me say a quick thanks to Mike S for his endorsement at the end of t’other. However, I don’t think either David T or Neil can be held responsible for the fur-balls being coughed up here. Better keep it somewhere where we can observe it, rather than echo chambers. Of course, there does come points when the stench becomes too much.

Now, I’m going to take a deep breath and read through the rest of this thread.

“Raid on Entebbe” and “Delta Force” two of my favourites. (along with “Starship Troopers”)

You’re a man of hidden depths.

Actually, “The Wild Geese” is a guilty pleasure. Not so far as to buy in on DVD, but if it’s on TV I invariably end up watching as 60 year olds ham it up as mercenaries; one IMDB view refers to “Hardy Kruger’s South African bigot who renounces his racist past after carrying a black man on his back for all of 10 minutes.”

P.

P.

Temporary interlude of light (relatively speaking only) relief: The headline on the front page of the latest Jewish News (went to press before the current horrors) got me wondering what Inayat was up to now. Reading further, it turns out to be a different sort of more casual antisemitism. I have only come across the term sheeny in period books, never in current life, either written or spoken. Has anyone else?
http://www.totallyjewish.com/the_jewish_news/view/c-10639/jewish-news-jn-561-271108/?no_login=1

“If Azzam Tamini can be considered white, you definitely are also, David.”

Why?

My father was white. My mother is partly so, but no one could mistake her for one hundred per cent. And at least I openly describe myself as mixed-race. Compare, say, Oona King, with an Ashkenazi Jewish mother and an African-American (i.e., part-white) father, who nevertheless calls herself black. Why?

John P - just wondering if you know any Muslims?

Lots.

Although as of yesterday I know one less.

She had been in an Irshad Manji position vis à vis her religion, but the horiffic events in Mumbai were the last straw

Rabbi & Rebbetzin Holtzberg now confirmed dead.

“I especially hate it when white people start speaking on behalf of minorities, as if they are a big undifferentiated mass of seagulls or something…”

Didn’t you mean to say ‘gora’ there or am I speaking on behalf of your ‘minority’? ;)

Whilst I acknowledge that Tamils have been systematically disenfranchised in Ceylon, does the political acceptance of radical Tamil nationalist organisations, their ‘martyrs’ and all the baggage that goes with it require a unified political presence at the Heroefest@ExCel?

If, as seems increasingly likely, some of the Bombay terrorists turn out to have a British connection, one could be forgiven for deconstructing the government’s position on extremism. In hindsight, this hasn’t been a particularly auspicious week for liberty.

J S Mill: “Free institutions are next to impossible in a country made up of different nationalities. Among a people without fellow-feeling, especially if they read and speak different languages, the united public opinion necessary to the working of representative government cannot exist.”

This could apply equally to India as to the UK of course.

It’s not something that gets much coverage. Mike

It was actually a film. Can’t get much more coverage than that. The commander who was killed was Benjamin Netanyahu’s brother.

Before this thread is closed …

Like the previous, because it was overrun by Islamophobes?

It’s just hilarious that some people associated with this blog can’t see the connection between the likes of David T posting day in and day out about radical Muslims hiding under the bed, and having threads messed up to the point of closure by the rantings of anti-Muslim bigots.

The possibility of Indian agency involvement can not ruled out because these attacks were carried out at a time when the Indian government is extremely frustrated over the repeated statements by US President elect Barak Obama, who has expressed his determination to resolve the 60 year old Kashmir issue. Over 120,000 Kashmiris have been killed in a 20 year struggle to attain liberty and freedom from Indian tyranny. Thousands of Kashmiri youth have been tortured, maimed, boiled and ‘ironed’ to death…thousands of Kashmiri women have been raped and molested often in front of the fathers, brothers and family by the depraved 900,000 strong Indian army deployed in Kashmir to terrorise…yes terrorise a Muslim populace of 13 million people, whose only demand is self-determination. Something which was promised to them by India’s first Prime Minister Nehru, also various international accords have stipulated the same, but the Indian government has violated and ignored these for decades (wait a minute that sounds like Israel’s similar blatant violations of international law and resolutions in their dealing with Palestinians)

India wants to get the sympathies of the new US administration and at the same time it intends to deflect the international community’s focus from the Kashmir state election where the Indian administration had failed to bring people to the polling stations even though tried with guns drawn.

It is not first time that Indian agencies have carried out such brutal acts, in the past similar a similar atrocity was enacted by Indian agencies at Chiti Singpura in Kashmir when then US President Bill Clinton was visiting India and Indian agencies massacred 38 members of the minority Sikh community in occupied Kashmir on March 20, 2000. Up until then the Sikh community had never been targetted by Muslim freedom fighters.

The incident was mentioned by Bill Clinton in his book were the former US President said “during my visit to India some Hindu militants decided to vent their outrage by murdering thirty-eight Sikhs in cold-blood. If I hadn’t made the trip, the victims would probably still be alive”.

The Indian government blamed Kashmiri militant groups for the brutal incident just to get sympathies of the visiting US President but later it came to the light that non other was involved in the incident except Indian security agencies.

Little John,

Whoever coined the portmanteau ‘Islamophobe’ was no doubt a Nigerian Christian. Alas, with the exception of ‘Roland’ who rarely posts here, HP readers have been deprived of some quintessentially Nigerian Islamophobia for too long.

To be an Islamophobe as a Christian in Nigeria is an integral part of your humanity.

Would be it too much to ask people like yourself to avoid fomenting the anti-concept status of this word? Are you a memed pod clone?

What do Jewish social centres have to do with Israel?

David L, because “white” and “black” are not distinct ethnic groups. Where, for instance, does “white” end and “North African” begin… somewhere in the Straits of Gibraltar? And, as I always say in discussions like this, the Nigerian minister in Local Hero was called Macpherson.

At least we aren’t defining “white” as “Caucasian”.

It’s just hilarious that some people associated with this blog can’t see the connection

JOHN LITTLE

Bleep, bleep! Demagogue alert! Straw-man at 20 clicks and closing!

Basically, John, you can either take on these anti-Muslim bigots, or you can sit on the sidelines complaining that they’re there. Who will put the bell around the cat’s neck?

Alec, I have a whole post over on my blog about the 2009 “homecoming”, and another about Scotophilia as a subculture in Northern Europe. Do give them a look.

I will, cousin.

It’s just hilarious that some people associated with this blog can’t see the connection between the likes of David T posting day in and day out about radical Muslims hiding under the bed, and having threads messed up to the point of closure by the rantings of anti-Muslim bigots.

Who, precisely, is failing to see a connection?

If anti-Muslim bigots are going to post somewhere, it is generally going to be on threads about Islamists, and not on threads about the Killers’ latest single.

Of course, instead of stating the blindingly obvious, it could be that you are insinuating that David T’s posts about low-life characters such as Azad Ali have somehow converted ordinarily sane people into bigots.

Is that the case?

If anti-Muslim bigots are going to post somewhere, it is generally going to be on threads about Islamists, and not on threads about the Killers’ latest single.

I don’t know about that specific example, but I have seen similar. Basically, they’re like teenage boys who see sex in linoleum.

Alec Macpherson’s response to this outrage and the eruption of this new and terrifying form of Jihadism is (a) to downplay its significance and indicate that these terrorist attacks often happen in Bombay and are nothing to get too worked up about and (b) to make “anti-Muslim bigotry” the big news in this story.

Talk about a warped response!

He goes on to suggest that people who oppose Islam are the obsessives, being “like teenage boys who see sex in linoleum”. Anyone who knows anything about Islam knows that its teachers and leaders proudly proclaim its totalitarian nature, that it is a guide to ALL aspects of life whatever they be - whether it is work, the economy, family life, swimming, card playing, beverages, art, novel writing, sex, cooking - NOTHING is hidden from its cold gaze.

Is AM concerned about that? It seems not. He appears more exercised by people who obsess about Islam.

Please be assured Alec I have many other interests in life and I would be only happy to return to the situation I was in 1999 when I had very little interest in Islam and gave it very little thought. I actually started reading about it in 2000 - not claiming any great prescience - but I was ahead of 9-11. But I would like nothing better than to be able to forget the sordid details of this cult-like ideology: if it was prepared to leave me and my fellow non-Muslims alone.

If anti-Muslim bigots are going to post somewhere, it is generally going to be on threads about Islamists …

Of which they have an endless number at HP to choose from, not coincidentally.

Sorry, what you are saying will not wash. HP attracts Islamophobes because HP is obsessed with Islamists to the exclusion of almost anything else. We all know that when the tabloid press run endless stories about young black men committing muggings, and avoid writing about fraud and embezzelment committed by the white middle classes, it’s because those newspapers are racist — and their protestations that they are simply exposing “criminals” in a neutral manner just don’t add up.

Alec Macpherson’s response to this outrage and the eruption of this new and terrifying form of Jihadism [...]

A good many Algerians would beg to differ.

[...] is (a) to downplay its significance [...]

Actually, no.

[...] and indicate that these terrorist attacks often happen in Bombay [...]

Again, no. That was, again, a response to your specific assertion that the city had not previously seen such spectaculars, at a time when both of us knew little more than it was coordinated series of shooting and bombings. All I can see having changed is that it’s transpired to be a more coordinated series of shootings and bombings.

[...] and are nothing to get too worked up about and (b) to make “anti-Muslim bigotry” the big news in this story.

Again, no. Thanks for trying, though.

John, no-one is forcing you to read this blog. The authors are no more responsible for the said goons that everyday Muslims are for these attacks. O-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r, is your next trick going to be to accuse practising Muslims of encouraging the Siege of Mumbai?

One is a bunch of people of commenting on the Internet. Another is the deaths of 150 people. Guess which you get animated about.

The authors are no more responsible for the said goons …

Interesting take on things, Alec. Akin to arguing that the authors of racist articles in tabloid newspapers are not responsible in any way for the racist views of people who read those newspapers.

John, no-one is forcing you to read this blog.

I’m practising what the blog owners like to preach: “liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.”

No one at HP should worry, because now that the siege is almost over, all we will hear from Islamic experts like Tony Blair is how this is a perversion of Islam, that Islam doesn’t condone the killing of innocents, blah blah blah, in recognition, unstated, that the local Islamic populace needs to be pacified and stroked, continually, lest they decide to mimic the terrorists in Bombay (oh wait, they’ve done that already in England and in Spain; so sorry, too late).

Akin to arguing that the authors of racist articles in tabloid newspapers are not responsible in any way for the racist views of people who read those newspapers.

What, you mean the Islamist nutjobs who the H.P. articles concentrate on are representative of Islam and Muslims, or that the authors think they are? The answer to the latter is a definite no, so all that remains is the possibility that you are scared of Muslims and think these attacks do represented Mr. Assif at the local Spar shop.

I’m practising what the blog owners like to preach: “liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.”

Oh, please, this one’s so old it has a book in the Bible named after it. Your comments are not being removed; therefore, the authors’ part in the bargain is fulfilled. You, on the other hand, are barging your way through this and related discussions by, unlike those responding to your comments by addressing you, expressing your ‘opposition’ to the anti-Muslim bigots in the form of criticisms of a third party. These are the actions of an irrational bully.

It is you who opposes the right for others to tell you things you do want to hear.

(H.P. authors, if you do delete a post of mine, delete the first. Then get a preview button!)

Seymour, as an inferred expert of Islam, where did you obtain your Ph.D. in Arabic or Islamic Studies?

Akin to arguing that the authors of racist articles in tabloid newspapers are not responsible in any way for the racist views of people who read those newspapers.

JOHN LITTLE

What, you mean the Islamist nutjobs who the H.P. articles concentrate on are representative of Islam and Muslims, or that the authors think they are? The answer to the latter is a definite no, so all that remains is the possibility that you are scared of Muslims and think these attacks do represented Mr. Assif at the local Spar shop.

I’m practising what the blog owners like to preach: “liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.”

Oh, please, this one’s so old it has a book in the Bible named after it. Your comments are not being removed; therefore, the authors’ part in the bargain is fulfilled. You, on the other hand, are barging your way through this and related discussions by, unlike those responding to your comments by addressing you, expressing your ‘opposition’ to the anti-Muslim bigots in the form of criticisms of a third party. These are the actions of an irrational bully.

It is you who opposes the right for others to tell you things you do want to hear.

Now I know why I love America.

Listening to USA radio and watching Fox News they see the slaughter of those killed in cold blood at the Chabad centre as a major news item whereas as BBC can’t even say “terrorist”.

I heard an opinion on WABC that Israel is quietly treating this like Munich and expect to see a few hits in retaliation.

Now THAT is what I want to hear. I want people to know that if you kill Jews then Israel will kill you. Now why doesn’t the UK take the same attitude. Are we MORE civilised or are we pussies?

Its called the Hiroshima option. If you deal yoru enemy a devatstaing blow then they don’t do it again.

Would it be okay to kill non-Jewish Israelis, Maven?

Listening to Curtis Sliwa (non-Jew who formed Guardian Angels) discuss with a New York Lubavitch Rabbi I learnt that while a Chabad is a Jewish centre its brief is to also reach out to the local population with Charity. Of course they aren’t prosletising. But perhaps they are trying to make good publicity for what Jews are.

I want to emphasise this in case anyone thinks a Chabad is “just for Jews” and some elitist organisation.

felix is either Clive James or has read his essays - specifically his review of Goldhagen’s book - a lot…

Channel 4 News calls it a terrorist attack.

“Would it be okay to kill non-Jewish Israelis, Maven?”

“Now why doesn’t the UK take the same attitude.” (Maven)

It seems that Maven thinks it is not okay.

Israel has the mission to be the Guardian of the Jews. Britain is the guardian of the British (see the Malvinas affair). I don’t think there is a contradiction here. France is the Guardian of the French, but somehow they forgot that Gilad Shalit is a French citizen (it is usual for the French to do that with Jews). Therefore, Israel.

Would it be okay to kill non-Jewish Israelis, Maven?

Sure!

You obviously realised what I was getting at. Its obvious that I don’t care who gets killed - only Jews.

So now go and fuck yourself!

My point was clearly that Israel takes care of Jews and I expect Brits and Americans to make sure this doesn’t happen to their nationals. Perhaps if they took the same attitude as Israel then we might clean up the terrorists.

I hope that we change our attitude to this type of terrorism and confront it where it lives. If it turns out that there were Brits involved then we need to go through that community like a dose of salts and remove the threats.

Can anyone think of any other way?

May I formally request any opinions as to how we defeat these terrorists.

Thanks Fabian. I knew you’d understand.

Pablo: David Lindsay is someone who uses lots of euphemisms to avoid using the word Jew.

(he has mental problems)

Now THAT is what I want to hear. I want people to know that if you kill Jews then Israel will kill you.
Now why doesn’t the UK take the same attitude.

Maven

–

The UK would most probably not extradite any potential logistic “militant” nor any imam involved in preparing the ideological grounds for this massacre.

The BBC would agree to that.

That is a sad observation to make…

So now go and fuck yourself!

Oscar Wilde at his best.

John Little -

HP attracts Islamophobes because HP is obsessed with Islamists to the exclusion of almost anything else. We all know that when the tabloid press run endless stories about young black men committing muggings, and avoid writing about fraud and embezzelment committed by the white middle classes, it’s because those newspapers are racist — and their protestations that they are simply exposing “criminals” in a neutral manner just don’t add up.

Fail.

This isn’t a newspaper. It’s a blog. It is frankly ludicrous to expect every blog out there to cover every single newsworthy item out there in proportion, lest they be accused of racism, or xenophobia, or bias, or distortion, or god knows what else.

HP isn’t racist, and piss-poor analogies like this one won’t make it so.

(And guilt-by-association-with-commenters won’t make it so either).

Oscar Wilde at his best.

Sorry, I think I might get your comment if I had any idea who Oscar Wilde was. Is it a compliment? Got no idea!

I am from Bradford and it sickens me that terrorists are from Bradford. Some were from Bradford in the 7/7 attacks, and we are really going to have to get a grip of these young Muslims training and going abroad or coming back here to bomb us. In Bradford we already have a Muslim Jihadi school, and why when you say anything are you deemed racist? We are going to have to take a stand against terrorists once and for all, and I will take the lead. I am sick of Bradford and would love to move out. Nobody I know has a good word to say about it.

Ismail (and others like you),Why do bring Kashmir into the issue? I don’t see any muslim ever expressing outrage at the oppression in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. Most of the Muslims are in deep poverty, even in Muslim countries. More Muslims get killed by Muslims than by infidels. None of these ever bothers you. What seems to bother Muslims in general, is the supposed fate of some Muslim in some alien country.

How blind can a community get?

Before very long, the BBC, CNN and the rest of the press, will blame this on
a) The Hindu Caste System (also Mr.Mody)
b) India’s treatment of minorities (never mind the fact that muslims are pampered beyond belief)
c) Indian’s poverty and crumbling infrastructure.
d) The Kashmir ‘problem’

The fact that the terrorists were well fed, non-Hindu/non-Indian and were trained outside India, will be forgotten.

The West understood about terrorism only after 9/11. In fact, Indians had been complaining about Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir. The response/sermon from the West then (and now): Learn to get along with your neighbouring countries. Now that terrorism has struck again and some Westerns are killed, hopefully the response will be different.

Been following the Indian news. Can someone tell me whether this report is accurate?

Brit hate preacher glorifies Mumbai terrorists

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/brit-hate-preacher-glorifies-mumbai-terrorists_100124642.html

Regards,

Inna

a) The Hindu Caste System (also Mr.Mody)
b) India’s treatment of minorities (never mind the fact that muslims are pampered beyond belief)
c) Indian’s poverty and crumbling infrastructure.
d) The Kashmir ‘problem’

They can’t because of the Jewish Centre that was targetted. That has zero to do with the issues you raised.

“That has zero to do with the issues you raised.”

And this matters because? I just got an e-mail that told me that last night C4 compared Mumbai to Colombine, Colorado.

If your media can make that connection, they can surely say that the terrorist attacks are a “natural response to world hunger” or something. It makes about as much sense.

Regards,

Inna

Alam Macpherson and John Little both have valid points to make. Just sticking to your guns does not add up to dialogue. We should try to find the grain of truth in the oponents arguments. Anti-msulim bigotry does exist - David T wrote about it - and it cannot be watched enough. Some of the earlier letters on this thread are on the brink of it.

After 9/11 Bush and Blair expressed the determination to hunt out Islam terrorist in every corner of the earth. Now it appears that some Jihadist are being integrated into liberal associations in Britain. What about making this vocally clear with demonstrations and every means possible? If, as HP members write, all the mosques and religious Muslim teaching in England is theocratic and jihadist, then they are instigating terrorism and should be spied on, dubbed and despatched from Britain. After all, the Western leaders wanted to hunt down terrorism in every corner. Religious freedom should be distinguished religious tyranny.

Regretfully, I would be inclined to agree, that Muslim immigration should be stopped temporarily until those in Britain were better integrated - with the exception of people who want to join their families. Intergration should be worked on very hard. - I don’t believe in the principle of punishment, but firm prevention and being put out of harm’s way, yes - and self-defense. We don’t only have to save Israel but the whole world.

While Israel’s borders should remain untouched, I would not simply jeer at Liberals and Lefties who identify with the Palestinians as a wronged group, but take their arguments seriously, however distorted they may be, and we should have a specially good look at what life is like for Israeli Arabs and the behaviour that drives them into becoming jihadists. I know Jews in Israel, who, for purely humanitarian reasons, are concerned about this problem.

I can’t remember the proper spelling of his name, “Ishmael Romer” (what is the Islamic spelling of “Ismael”?) but I remember one American lad who went to Kashmir in order to help a genocidal terrorist organization known for rounding up hindu and sikh villagers and shooting them in the back of the head.

He was arrested and charged with terrorism when he got back. I remember American Muslims defending him and being very bitter that this good man who had been teaching their children (and trainging them with paintball fighting!!!) was unfairly charged and jailed.

No one seemed to mind that he was a killer involved in ethnic cleansing.

Alec Macpherson: You may infer what you want. I never pose as an expert in Islam (why would I waste that much time studying such idiocy? I’m not that interested in cults, like Islam or Scientology or Mormonism, except like an onlooker at an accident, drawn to it in horror). I do read and reflect and I have seen the handiwork of Muslims first hand not far from where I live; and I’ve read their excuses and b.s. and the silly apologies of western “leaders” for seven years.

I will give our political leaders a pass to an extent, as it is a difficult issue. They don’t have my freedom. I can venture my opinion, that Islam is a death cult; that its adherents are prone to horrific violence in its name far far more than those of other religions, at least in the modern age; that from the start, it was a political philosophy (according it more intellectual standing than it deserves) of uncompromising cruelty. Politicians cannot do this, even if they believe it. Unfortunately for everyone, most of us will be on the same page as I am on, regarding Islam, sooner or later.

Felix–

If you stop Muslim immigration into the UK, wouldn’t more British Muslim be driven to become suicide bombers? After all you are discriminating against a specific group based on their religion.

And if you’re concerned about how Muslims in Israel are being treated (as you genuinely seem to be) should you not be at least AS concerned about how Muslims in the UK are being treated–and what your proposal will mean for them?

Regards,

Inna

“That has zero to do with the issues you raised.”

And this matters because?

Because we can’t say its all because of a problem about Kashmir. Its the general Islamist Terrorism against Israel and Jews.

A four year old kid could work that out!

Get yourslef a four year old kid to explain some of this to you.

If you stop Muslim immigration into the UK, wouldn’t more British Muslim be driven to become suicide bombers

Well is they are THAT unstable I hate to think what they would do if the local school refused to serve Halal meat or someone in the office had a biccy with their tea during Ramadan.

I use these examples to show how absurd the assertion by Inna is.

Are you REALLY suggesting that Muslims will suicide bomb us if we stop immigration? Seriously we would have a BIG problem with people who think this way. I feel you are unfairly dissing UK Muslims.

Maven: How can you not knowd who Oscar Wilde was? One of the most famous of Ireland/England’sVictorian wits and writers. I don’t know whether refusing Muslim immigration would stop bombmules, but it would certainly lead to messy litigation, as certain Muslims have shown themselves more than willing to exhaust everyone’s patience using the courts to prove their points.

With regard to the attack on the Jewish centre, I wonder if this wasn’t partly because it was an American Jewish centre? An Indian woman I heard interviewed on the early evening news said that the terrorists were very fair-skinned like Kashmiris, but I imagine they were a mixture of different groups.

Alam?

I honestly had to check wiki to make sure I hadn’t given a duff name.

Paul Moloney
“Actually, “The Wild Geese” is a guilty pleasure. Not so far as to buy in on DVD, but if it’s on TV I invariably end up watching as 60 year olds ham it up as mercenaries”
Me and my brother regularly bond over that movie. There is so much in it to love. There’s even a Withnail and I drinking game you can to it if so inclined.

“Are you REALLY suggesting that Muslims will suicide bomb us if we stop immigration?”

No. I am suggesting that if you say that Israeli Muslims are attacking Israel because they are ill-treated then it’s reasonable to assume that British Muslims will attack Britain if they are ill-treated.

Regards,

Inna

Is this cartoon Islamophobic? The Grim Reaper wields a crescent-bladed scythe, by Morten Morland in The Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/cartoon/

Peter Brooke (lower down) failed to find anything deserving of comment in the recent news from Bombay. He’s still bitching about taxpayers’ money being wasted to fight wars in faraway countries of no importance.

Why should there be any surprise that there are British Muslims among the Mumbai terrorists? There have been a number of British Muslim terrorists in recent years, most noteriously being Omar Sareed who organized the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl and who turned him over to the Saudis who cruely beheaded the Jewish-American reporter and made a video out of it.

I haven’t read the comment thread so apologies if what I’m about to say has already been brought up.

………………………………………………………..

Late Thursday night, BBC news cut to their “security correspondant” to speculate about what we might learn from the CCTV pictures of the terrorists… sorry - “militants” - taken from the train station.

Cue very clear and precise CCTV stills showing young, handsome south Asian men wearing their Gap/Nike/M&S clothes as easily as they wore their AK47’s and rucksacks of grenades…

It’s at this point that the BBC’s so-called “Security Correspondent” loftily informs his audience that these images of bright young men bringing death and destruction are both shocking and difficult to comprehend… Not what one might expect…

………………………………………………

Nothing that happened in Mumbai was more shocking and horrifying than this abysmal coverage by the World’s greatest broadcaster.

A couple of years ago a train into Mumbai was bombed with horrific, indiscriminate death. Mumbai is familiar with shock and horror. And familiar with such atrocities being described by the BBC as the acts of “militants”.

We are all familiar with the BBC’s tortuous guidelines on use of terms like “terrorist” and “militant” - odious as this is, it’s understandable and forgivable.

What IS NOT FORGIVABLE - is for “experts” to pretend that young South Asian men in “Western clothes” committing terrorist atrocities is in some way “surprising”.

It’s as if none of these people have ever bothered to really look at the 7/7 bombers. Or the 28/7 bombers. Even the 9/11 terrorists were mostly “young”. Muhammed Atta being one of the oldest - and the only one anyone seems to remember.

ISLAMIST JIHADI TERRORIST ATROCITIES ARE ALMOST ALWAYS CARRIED OUT BY YOUNG MIDDLE-CLASS CONVERTS.

It’s ever been thus. Red Army Faction anyone?

Seriously… How fucked up are we that our best news broadcasters ignore the 9/11 murderers, ignore the 7/7 murderers, the 21/7 failed murderers - ignore every single previous action that provides a common link between Islamist jihadi atrocities…

And pretend that it’s somehow shocking that these bright handsome youths are the ones carrying out slaughter?

It’s abhorrent.

Why should there be any surprise that there are British Muslims among the Mumbai terrorists?

Spot on, David All.

In fact it’d almost be better if ALL of the Mumbai terrorists were proved to be British muslims - simply because it would focus attention on the jihadi highway and murderous radicalism that is openly being practised in certain parts of Britain.

Somehow we’ve reached a point where any atrocity, however indiscriminate, is allowed to be “contextualised” by “British Foreign Policy”. Over and over the message has been drummed in that Iraq and Afghanistan represent Foreign Policy decisions which are, by definition, offensive to British muslims.

Not once has this message been challenged and mocked for it’s blatant inconsistency and hypocrisy.

Not once has the so-called British muslim “community” been forced to account for the political and religious liberation of the Shia Muslim majority in Iraq.

Nor have they accounted for the liberation of the Sunni Muslim Kurds.

And this is a failing of our media and ourselves. Everytime some self-appointed representative of British muslims tries to suggest that British foreign policy is somehow offensive to “muslims” they should automatically be made to account for the Shia Iraqis. The Sunni Kurds.

Because the only answer these people have is that Shia are sub-human apostates and Kurds are slaves.

Which is why it’s easy to spot such psychos unless they’re given cover by national media who constantly apologise and contextualise such hate

There can only be one prime foreign policy objective for the UK, USA and India in South West Asia and that is “Close Down Those Schools, Mr. Zardari”. I refer of course to the infamous Maddrassas, stage on the Jihadi conveyor belt.

This on CNN:

“A British security source told CNN that British security officials are investigating why two bodies believed to be those of terrorists were found with British identification documents.”

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/28/india.attacks/index.html

Regards,

Inna

I agree Phomesy. To imply any of this was unforeseeable, odd or incomprehensible is pathetic.

I think the person you are referring to may be Frank Gardner - himself paralysed in a targeted attack by followers of Islam. He himself attempted to save his life at the time by declaring in Arabic to his attackers that he was a Muslim (why would he do that? ).

Hardly anyone here was really surprised by these attacks were they? Security Correspondents have far more info than we do. They should be completely unsurprised.

No, this is all about fitting in with the Government-BBC-Liberal Media line that Islam is a religion of peace, the Jihadis are hijacking the religion and Jihadism is a product of poverty and backwardness, not ideology. Frank G always seems careful to frame his comments in this context - he kind of “translates” stuff into PC BBC-ese.

Inna -

My suggestion about stopping Muslim immigration temporarily was kind of desperate and I don’t really know what the consequences would be. I meant it as a good deed both for the host country and for the moderate Muslims in Britain. Time to breathe and and take stock. Maybe there should simply be a general control of immigration.
SOMETHING absolutely has to be done to stop, prevent, curtail the activities of Muslim and all other fanatics.

Regards,
Felix

This is just a wild thought, but the government could say: no more Muslim immigration until the Jiihad culture has been wiped out in Britain. We have a right to defend ourselves from terrorist attacks like the one in Mumbai.

Felix–

I don’t really know the situation in the UK; I can’t pretend that I do. I do know that we, in the US, don’t seem to have anywhere near the same problems as you guys. Which is not to say that we don’t have problems; we do. But nothing like what you guys seem to have. I have seen many explanations given for this–everything from Hollywood, to a more capitalistic society (which forces people to more fully integrate) to the idea that Americans are more open than Britons because we take the idea that we are a nation of immigrants quite seriously.

I do know that you guys have a problem.

I also noticed that in the same post where you were advocating that something be done about British Muslim extremists (basically because you were feeling under attack) you were also wanting to investigate how Israel treats its Muslim minority. The implication being that Israel would not be attacked so much if it treated its Muslims better.

I don’t know if you’re right about Israel. I do suspect that on a day when 8 Israeli soldiers are hurt in a mortar attack, one critically (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702358174&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull ) Israel might be feeling under attack as well. This isn’t to justify bad treatment of any minority anywhere–but it does seem that if you are concerned for Muslim welfare, you should be more concerned about the welfare of Muslims in your country. I mean, you have some say about what goes on in your country.

But if you apply one set of standards to yourself when you’re scared and another set of standards to a foreign country (which is also scared) your post begins to look—inconsistent. Like you’re advocating a course of action that will make you feel better while still attempting to prove your bona fides as a good liberal who of course cares about Muslims. So long as they’re elsewhere.

Regards,

Inna

“I don’t really know the situation in the UK; I can’t pretend that I do. I do know that we, in the US, don’t seem to have anywhere near the same problems as you guys.” – Inna.

I seem to recall seeing film some planes flying into buildings in (I think) the USA. Could you confirm that?

No. I am suggesting that if you say that Israeli Muslims are attacking Israel because they are ill-treated then it’s reasonable to assume that British Muslims will attack Britain if they are ill-treated.

Inna

All I am simply doing is stating the facts. It seems to me that Muslims get a very fair deal in the UK and so there would be no reason why any Muslim should seek to carry out 7/7. We should NOT forget terrorist acts that also took place and the number thwarted and the guilty jailed.

I do know that we, in the US, don’t seem to have anywhere near the same problems as you guys

Inna you are correct. You don’t have the same situation we have in the UK. I’m a close follower of the USA and a frequent traveller. The reason is that there is a single concentration of Muslims around Dearborn. But MORE importantly you cannot grow up in the USA without a pledge of allegiance to the flag and the development of Patriotism. Hence, most USA Muslims would rather join in the capitalist culture of the USA and aspire. You don’t hear Muslim groups constantly telling the Muslims of the USA how opressed they are - because they are obviously not.

Then you have the ridiculous CAIR and Ibrahim Hooper who regularly gets trashed in interviews due to his radical, Muslim Brotherhood, pro-Hamas stance. USA is a MUCH stronger supporter of Israel than UK. So, when Ibrahim Hooper opens his trap and disses Israel he gets laughed off the stage. In the UK if you diss Israel you get applauded.

There have been relatively minor local Muslim terrorist attempts as I recall. Two guys who cased an American base via the pizza boy were found with explosives in their car on their way to break into the base. CAIR called them “some kids with a few fireworks”. CAIR also came a cropper over the “Flying Imams” scam where they wanted to cite John Doe’s in a cout case to try and call them Islamaphobes. Then we have the Holy Land guilty verdicts.

The USA is certainly a lot different to the UK.

When a tragic event like this happens, it is the aftermath that we should really start to worry about, which is the focus of Lenin’s piece. I don’t think its sensible to try this into another case of Muslims attacking Jews. Ok, yes, some people who call themselves Muslims did attack Jews, presumably deliberately and for racist reasons. However, as the Times reports “Six Americans were killed, according to the US Embassy, along with foreigners from Britain, Germany, Canada, Israel, Italy, Japan, China, Thailand, Australia and Singapore.” - this was clearly more than just an attack on Jews - 195 people died - the majority of them Indian. There is also the tensions between the Hindu community and the Muslim community to worry about.

Yes, the group that did this are racist, and utterly despicable.

No, it isn’t “Muslims” that are to blame.

No, we should not make the generalisations that David does about how “Islamists” are motivated “by a psychotic and deep seated racist, genocidal, and religiously-expressed desire to attack Jews and specifically Jews”. That maybe true of the actual perpetrators. But it cannot be extrapolated to “Islamists” in general (which, according to David includes the likes of Yaqoob and Bunglawala).

Events like this can easily trigger far worse things in the future (like 9/11 did), especially if people are allowed to use them as proof of their world view. David’s posts on this are borderline sectarian, and inappropriate.

“Worry about the aftermath”.
Read: “Explain away the atrocity”

Ok, yes, some people who call themselves Muslims did attack Jews, presumably deliberately and for racist reasons. However, as the Times reports “Six Americans were killed, according to the US Embassy, along with foreigners from Britain, Germany, Canada, Israel, Italy, Japan, China, Thailand, Australia and Singapore.” - this was clearly more than just an attack on Jews -

Indeed it was an attack on all people. A scatter-gun (apologies) approach that goes into hotels and restaurants known to be frequented by tourists isn’t deliberately targetting an American over an Australian for example. It targets anyone unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It may be that in a protest over Kashmir they are targetting foreigners who support India by their holidaying and by being there engaged in commerce.

But to single out a Jewish centre that simply provides a meeting house for Jews in Mumbai and which reaches out with charity to the local community is to make a different political statement. Its a statement that says “Muslims Terrorists will kill Jews where they find them because they are Jews”

Its mandated in teh darker places of The Koran and Hadiths as Mohammed’s revenge against being rejected by the Jews and also for perceived injustices against the Palestinians.

Now, I will accept that no statement about I/P was made and so I might be off-beam.

Felix–

If you stop Muslim immigration into the UK, wouldn’t more British Muslim be driven to become suicide bombers? After all you are discriminating against a specific group based on their religion.

And if you’re concerned about how Muslims in Israel are being treated (as you genuinely seem to be) should you not be at least AS concerned about how Muslims in the UK are being treated–and what your proposal will mean for them?

Regards,

Inna

I could be wrong, but were the arguably indigenous population of the British Isles ever consulted about Muslim (or any other inward migration for that matter) immigration? Surely, we can infer then that the indigenous British population who disapprove of immigration are already discriminated against…how would you propose to redress the deficit? Incentivise immigration to the UK of those with British ancestry?

I don’t share your understanding of migration as a human right. Surely terrorism committed by those with putative links to the UK should raise serious questions of the motivations at home. Such a debate should not be hindered by ad hominem accusations of xenophobia and racism. Somehow, I don’t think China, Korea or Japan will ever need to have such debates.

YIT wrote:

“? Surely, we can infer then that the indigenous British population who disapprove of immigration are already discriminated against”

so who exactly is the “indigenous British population”??

the Celts? the Roman? the Picts?

the Anglo-Saxon interlopers? the Frenchies that came over in 1066?

how long before you count as “indigenous British” ? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 500?

is someone suggesting that all Brits should be “indigenous”? (haven’t we been here before in the 1930s?)

and if so, would you recommend that everyone has a chart of their genealogy/family history, just to ensure that everyone is “indigenous”*??

—-
*sarcasm

the Times is today reporting that a british tourist, who as a actor played the part of a 7/7 bomber was mistakenly detained as aterrorist for a short time by the indian police- this may be the source of the ‘uk terrorist’ story. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5254334.ece In a more pathetic line the british SWP, who famously refused to condemn 9/11, have issued a statement on the bombay attacks: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16575 which significantly fails to mention or condemn the attacks upon westerners or the targetting of Jews. Sick bastards.

I could be wrong, but were the arguably indigenous population of the British Isles ever consulted about Muslim (or any other inward migration for that matter) immigration? Surely, we can infer then that the indigenous British population who disapprove of immigration are already discriminated against…how would you propose to redress the deficit? Incentivise immigration to the UK of those with British ancestry?

The only discrimination the British ever applied to people of a religion has been against Jews, as it so happens.

We must never discriminate in immigration except to define people of fitness by their associations and extreme political views like the USA’s quoestion “Are you a terrorist”.

What do we do if we find 100,000 young radical Muslims who believe in suicide bombing and who find things like 7/7 to be justified. We can’t follow each of them so we rely on intelligence work. Clearly that is imperfect . Do we just wait for the next atrocity and accept it like a school of fish that our individual chances of being killed is low?

Why is it politically wrong to suggest that if we find such a group then we need to find a way to monitor them or isolate them. Doesn’t that mean tagging with some kind of GPS mechanism. phone taps, e-mail interception, mobile phone interception and monitoring where they travel to? Will people scream that we infringe their human rights - and yet if they become suicide bombers we reflect on our human rights not to be killed and then we change the status of these bombers to ‘animals’ - after the event.

Or is it easier to put them all in a camp?

Do we need a “Star Chamber” like Mossad did after Munich?

You may not like the possible ways of dealing with this so what alternatives do you offer?

I think we have to analyse all these possibilities if we are to protect ourselves.

Muslims in the UK today are experiencing exactly the same reaction from the greater population as did any Irish person, or person of Irish extraction, living here during the IRA campaigns.

It was not pleasant to live through, it was not just or fair, but we lived through it and learned to deal with it. My advice is, deal with it and stop whinging.

And to those who dishonour Islam and it’s adherents by murdering and killing and maiming supposedly with God’s blessing, ( though we see no hard copy evidence of God’s blessing); if you are not happy with the country you live in, work through the normal channels to improve things, if not, find a country where you are happy and move there. It’s a free world………

In a more pathetic line the british SWP, who famously refused to condemn 9/11, have issued a statement on the bombay attacks: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16575 which significantly fails to mention or condemn the attacks upon westerners or the targetting of Jews. Sick bastards.

I have pointed out elsewhere that in Nov 2003 when terrorists bombed a synagogue in Turkey followed a few days later by a bombing of HSBC and Britis Consul, Mike O’Brien asked MCB why they hadn’t isued a condemnation of the terrorism. SO they did. Except they ONLY condemned the attack on British interests and never mentioned the synagogue. Further the blamed George Bush and the WOT.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/presstext.php?ann_id=54

The Muslim Council of Britain condemns yesterday’s twin bombings in Istanbul, Turkey, which has killed at least 27 people including the British Consul-General, Roger Short, and injured over 400 people.

“Our thoughts are with families of all the victims of this atrocity, including our fellow British citizens. It is becoming increasingly clear that the ‘war on terror’ advocated by President Bush is not working and unless we begin to seriously address the root causes of injustice behind the dreadful phenomenon of terrorism ordinary human beings will continue to pay the price of terror. In the wake of an escalating terrorist bombing campaign it is surely time we re-evaluated our strategy for defeating this terrible phenomenon”, said Mr Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain.

Not sure if Bungle worked for them in Nov 2003.

Maven,

when exactly do you want Britain to implement Soviet style Gulags?

next week? next month? or just make the Isle of Wight one about Internment camp?

Modernity:

“so who exactly is the “indigenous British population”??

the Celts? the Roman? the Picts?

the Anglo-Saxon interlopers? the Frenchies that came over in 1066?

how long before you count as “indigenous British” ? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 500?

is someone suggesting that all Brits should be “indigenous”? (haven’t we been here before in the 1930s?)

and if so, would you recommend that everyone has a chart of their genealogy/family history, just to ensure that everyone is “indigenous”*??”

No. No. No. Of course not. This is the all too familiar meme where I respond by saying something along the lines of ‘But before C.1970 there was no significant migration to these islands…etc.’.

Look. I appreciate the flawed empirical basis for a claim of ‘indigenous’ to qualify any group of peoples. I’m just not comfortable with Britain as a multicultural society. I just like things as they were and detest the way race and religion have forced themselves into our public and private space. I am multilingual. I love to travel and have a deep concern for and interest in other cultures. I’m currently abroad whilst I type this. I just happen to think that societies can do without what I consider to be the pernicious and damaging effects of significant inward migration flows. With the possible exception of Brazil, I see no evidence of any supposedly post-racial society. Sorry. But there it is.

Maven,

next week? next month? or just make the Isle of Wight one about Internment camp?

Are you choosing that option from my list?

If you think its a go-er then I’d build a special camp in somewhere like Dartmoor. Has to be purpose built with Halal kitchens, washrooms and Mosques. Need to start ASAP.

However, I did suggest other alternatives. Why do you seem to prefer this one? Do I take it that one of the others is acceptable to you?

Or do you find NONE acceptable but don’t have an alternative.

(Do you realise I deliberately made provocative suggestions to provoke a debate and illustrate the difficulty of how to deal with this. I’d prefer tagging and surveillance)

“The only discrimination the British ever applied to people of a religion has been against Jews, as it so happens.”

Being a Catholic here used to be hard going as well. If you wanted to outrage the populace jyou would say something was Popish, and up we good Prods would get, ready to break windows and heads all round.

After all you are discriminating against a specific group based on their religion.

Which are only beliefs after all.

Just like the Nazi Party….

Maven wrote:

“(Do you realise I deliberately made provocative suggestions to provoke a debate and illustrate the difficulty of how to deal with this. I’d prefer tagging and surveillance)”

provoke a debate on putting people in camps, my my that’s very mature

would you support the Chinese Govt. when it imprisons Tibetans as “enemies of the people” ?

or Russia when it reintroduces Gulags?

what about Cuba? locking up dissents after no trial or a fixed one?

Maven, do you really feel happy with those? if not, then reflect on why your “suggestions” are so so regressive

I am sure that arguing about putting people in camps is common on fascist web sites, Stormfront, Green Arrow (the BNP one), etc but outside of neo-Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Kim Jong Ills, few decent people give it any credence and with good cause

After all you are discriminating against a specific group based on their religion.

Which are only beliefs after all.

Just like the Nazi Party….

Did Morgy just admit that he is being just like the Nazi party?

Astonishing honesty!

There we have it, then: Hindu, Sikh, Naxalite, or indeed any other word you like is, to Fabian, a euphemism for Jew.

This must be the case, since Fabian is a Jew. And Fabian, as we all know, is the centre of the universe.

Rather a lot of criticism of the (entirely vindicated) opposition to the Iraq War is exactly this vein. Or should that be, vain?

and if so, would you recommend that everyone has a chart of their genealogy/family history, just to ensure that everyone is “indigenous”*??

It’s neither here nor there, Modernity.

The first priority of gov’t should always be the protection of its citizens.

If certain types of immigration imperil that security, then that type of immigration should be stopped.

Britian, or indeed any other European country, hasn’t any moral obligations towards the Islamic world.

You fancy yourself an anti-fascist, but you’re allowing 10s of thousands ( if not more) of adherents to a religious ideology that is entirely fascist in both tone AND substance to enter Britian.

And you then turn around and imply that all those who won’t support this ‘affirmative action’ for islamo-nazis are somehow racist.

In what way, exactly, does allowing individuals who mean us harm into the country make you morally superior?

Perhaps, instead, it makes you a moral fool.

If you wish to sign an immigration suicide pact and then apologise yourself right out of existence, then go right ahead… just leave the rest of us out of it, ok?

And making polite, politically correct distinctions between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Muslims won’t cut the mustard

The islamic world…all of it… feels it is entitled to the entire globe, including your home!

provoke a debate on putting people in camps, my my that’s very mature

I am sure that arguing about putting people in camps is common on fascist web sites, Stormfront, Green Arrow (the BNP one), etc but outside of neo-Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Kim Jong Ills, few decent people give it any credence and with good cause

I LOVE IT! It AMUSES ME! Here we have someone suggesting that an internment camp (my least favourite option) is somehow going to be a Gulag when I envisage it as a Holiday Camp!

Would you object if it were 5 star catering, swimming pools (Mens & Womens) etc. People would be radicalising themselves to get in!!

But you offered no counter-proposal.

Sorry to sound trivial, but is anyone missing the demise of the word “Bombay” — a lovely city-name that is recognized throughout the English-speaking world? We anglicize Lisbon, Rome, Venice, Athens, Moscow… can’t we keep Bombay?

Maven,

try to remember YOUR own comments from the previous threads, it was YOU, that’s YOU who suggested the introduction of internment camps?

and I am asking YOU if you feel happy when that is done in places, like China, Russia or Cuba?

well, are you?

PS: if you are having problems reading the text, please can I suggest a screen reader, it will ease the pressure on your eyes.

and I am asking YOU if you feel happy when that is done in places, like China, Russia or Cuba?

Why do I need to answer this question. I stated that there is no reason why an Internment camp shouldn’t be a Holiday Camp with wrders dressed in bright coloured suits and bow-ties organising knobbly-knee contests and the like.

Do you have an image that’s different? After all, its MY suggestion.

Shan’t answer your question and I’ll scweem and scweem if you don’t stop

Maven

my suggestion is that you do NOT lock people up without a fair trial, that you do NOT throw people into internment camps or gulags

those are my suggestions and if you have the time I’d recommend reading Anne Applebaum’s history of the Gulag, and you might understand why

A foreign affairs?analyst called Crispin Black (I think) offered a very chilling thought about the possible consequences of the spectacular success of this operation. He pointed it was not every young wouldbe mujahid that wanted to become that most anonymous of mass murderers, the bomb mule. That fairly intelligent and probably urban young Islamist “warriors” would have been deeply impressed by the Rambo style Mumbai raid. Thus he feared that there could be other such city “commando”-style jihad ops in train. The only consolation was that security measures would be more effective in thwarting this type of attack than copping some crazed, doped up kid wandering into town in his lethal jacket.

Latest news - a captured Mumbai terrorist has been speaking and says he came, along with at least two others from Faridkot in Punjab (Pakistan). He says there were around 15 terrorists plus associates who were recruited by the militant Lakshair-e-Taiba and trained in Pakistan for three months, had a month’s break and then did another month’s training.

They did a recce a month beforehand. (There are unconfirmed reports that there were two associates employed at the Taj). After training the group was then sent to Mumbai with instructions to inflict maximum casualties expecting to die in the process.

The LeT is known for this sort of attack and belongs to that faction of militant islam which lays claim to all of Asia as being Muslim by right, including India (”stolen” from Muslims). According to wikipedia. LeT is currently based near Lahore, Pakistan while operating several militant training camps in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

The terrorists took a boat from Karachi and then hijacked a trawler in Porbander (part of their training) taking one of the crew hostage and forcing the others in the boat back to Karachi. They landed their inflatable rafts when they reached Mumbai and cut the throat of the hostage. On arrival they fanned out to attack their targets killing anyone who got in their path. (The Indian Manager of the Taj is reported to have lost both his wife and his two teenage sons among the casualties).

Although they claimed to be from India, their Punjabi accents gave them away (the inevitable Punjabi elements are claim this is all a put up job by India.) However there are also reports of a terrorist’s mobile phone found with a message back to chief LeT strategist Yousuf Musamil in Pakistan.

After being branded as a terrorist organisation, LeT responded by dividing into political and militant wings, like the IRA. Its political wing claims to be charitable in aim and receives funding, some of it misguided no doubt, from overseas including the UK. It is believed to receive tacit if not overt support from the ISI (Pakistani Secret Service) in formenting trouble in the ongoing row with India over Kashmir.

The use of gun toting suicide killers seems to be a Kashmiri variation. There were warnings back in September after the car bomb in Islamabad which targetted the Marriott that luxury hotels in Mumbai were also on the agenda and security was beefed up but has of couse slipped back since then.

At least one Mauritian passport has been found, believed to belong to a terrorist, but there are no reports at present on whether any British born Pakistans were part of their number

my suggestion is that you do NOT lock people up without a fair trial, that you do NOT throw people into internment camps or gulags

those are my suggestions and if you have the time I’d recommend reading Anne Applebaum’s history of the Gulag, and you might understand why

Did Anne Applebaum’s Gulag have tennis courts like my Internment camp would?

Did you notice that the terrorists of Mumbai locked up a few innocent people as hostages and then executed them without any trial whatsoever.

I heve no problem with locking some of them up without trial and treating them to a Holiday Camp.

If only Internment Camps were five star luxury we’d have people fighting to get in. Its time to update the concept on Internment into the 21st Century.

Nice stuff already by our prison service when they spen £3,500 on Indian Restaurant meals for the Muslim prioners fro breaking Ramadan feast.

Now, that is what I call five star treatment!

Maven

I can only assume that your idiocy concerning “Internment” comes Either from medication, lack of thought, a juvenile outlook or an extremist mentality.

you can’t engage with the issue of locking people up without charge and the implications of that, so either you don’t understand or simply can’t see the problem?

my feeling is that you’d be happier on some Far Right web site where you could give full vent to your anger

Lakshair-e-Taiba oh God, that’s the same terrorist group that recruited that American I was talking about.

bombay was renamed, so I believe, by a former, BJP, Mayor and locals treat the name change in the same way as st.petersburg residents did when the city was renamed by both the Czar and later the Bolos: by carrying on calling it by its real name.

I can only assume that your idiocy concerning “Internment” comes Either from medication, lack of thought, a juvenile outlook or an extremist mentality.

Juvenile outlook. It takes 30 years off me. I do lack thought so anything I say must be taken with a pinch of pepper (that’s not right!)

you can’t engage with the issue of locking people up without charge and the implications of that, so either you don’t understand or simply can’t see the problem?

Its BEYOND engagement! We’re married and have two lovely neo-cons.

my feeling is that you’d be happier on some Far Right web site where you could give full vent to your anger

Oh do please express your feelings. Its so lovely to be in touch with them. Is the word “vent” short for “venturi” I wonder. An orifice that controls the air fuel mixture I believe.

Will you require visiting rights? One wife or two? Tuesday is Crib night and we have a Carribean Calypso Night this Friday after prayers……………..

Oh you ARE so SERIOUS. Did you have surgery for you humour bypass? Lobotomy perhaps?

I hope that it is true, for the simple reason that it will highlight the problems we face with our home grown religion of peace residents. There are 4,000 of these creatures under terrorist surveillance, and 2,000 are designated a direct and active threat.

Further, if any of those creatures in India were from the UK, it means they will never live here again.

“when exactly do you want Britain to implement Soviet style Gulags?
next week? next month?”

How about six months? Then we could build them nice and secure, just like Guantanomo. Then we can round up the 2,000 scum designated an active terrorist threat, and actually DO something against this cancerous threat instead of just waiting for the next atrocity, and waiting for Muslims to acknowledge the violence in their religion and where it comes from, and condemn it - which of course they never have done and never will.

Has anyone like the MCB spoken the token sentence that killing is wrong, then the thousand further words blaming others for this yet?

Can we see the favoured Koranic inspiration of these terrorists, or perhaps the specific murder campaign of Mohammed that got them especially enthusiastic?

“This in NO WAY reflects poorly on the religion of Islam as a whole.”

You sound exactly like the shopkeeper trying to sell John Cleese a dead parrott. Except he was funny, and you are not. We laughed at him taking the piss and lieing, while there is nothing funny about Muslim lieing and denials.

I see the Religion of Peace (Copyright 622AD) has clocked up another couple of hundred - this time in Nigeria.

Apparently Italians got off more lightly in Mombay. “All seven Italian hostages were liberated by the terrorists”. According to a newspaper article an English youth was freed because he said he was Italian.

“I’m just not comfortable with Britain as a multicultural society. I just like things as they were and detest the way race and religion have forced “indigenous’ to qualify any group of peoples. I’m just not comfortable with Britain as a multicultural society. I just like things as they were and detest the way race and religion have forced indigenous’ to qualify any group of peoples. I’m just not comfortable with Britain as a multicultural society. I just like things as they were and detest the way race and religion have forced themselves into our public and private space.”

This was written by someone called Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros. If that isn’t multiculturism I don’t know what is. I could write pages about the cultural enrichment resulting from mixed cutures. What the Jews didn’t do for Germany before they were expelled or killed. Somone above has already pointed out the the mixture of races that went into making the modern Englishman. fFrench and Anglo-Saxon lived side by side, and it is thanks to the French influence that we have the language of Shakespeare in which all the guttural Germanic sounds either disappeared or were softened and blended with French words. You don’t grow nationally by looking at your own belly-button all the time. Now in Verona I can make couscous with all trappings, I can buy all the products for cooking Indian meals. The shop downstairs now sells fresh ginger. All this is quite recent thanks to immigration. No give me a multicultural society any day! If you are Jewish, Jusuf, you are coming close to justifying anti-semitism.

A message to Inna -

I’m much closer to your way of thinking than you imagine. I was obviously confused in my suggestions I can’t be sure of anything I say, but ideally moderate Muslims should particpate in an agreement to stop fanatics from entering the country.

No, you didn’t get me wrong Im very concerned about how Muslims and other minorities are trearted in Britain and Italy and also Israeli Arabs. I tried to find a site on the latter subject that seemed objective and not partisan. If you google ‘Islamic fundamentalism’ its the second site down. Encarta MSN. I don’t know whether this site is reliable, but I’m at the beginning of my studies. Jihad originally had a quite different meaning, something like ‘following the paths of righteousness.”

I do think one can’t just take present attitudes on face value, but that we should investigate the rise of Fundamentalism and try to understand how and why it became what it is today. There should be a site on which moderate Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists and etc. communicate with one another, argue and explain. There would have to be rules of conduct, no insulting, violent attacks.

In Italy Muslims have tio abide by Italian law., If a Muslim father kills his daughter because she wanted to marry an Italian, the father goes to jail for murder. (Similar things happen in Italian families). On the other hand, even in a Verona hostile to Arabs, a man was given a seven month jail sentence for insulting an Arab woman recently. For incitement to hatred you can get a jail sentence from 1 to 3 years.

I’m sick of it all. I just want people to love one another!!!!!

Felix

I dont know how I managed to copy Yusufs staement £ times, Sorry!

Felix–

I’m sick of it all too. But there already ARE places where the “radical middle” can congregate; there have been since at least 1989 (when I entered college). And you know what? We’re not the problem. And our getting together–either online or in person–doesn’t seem to be solving much of anything.

I have no solutions. I do know that we in the US don’t have nearly the same sort of problem you guys or Israelis or Europeans as a whole do. To be honest, I m not sure why that is. But I do suspect that American self-image (our concept of what we’re all about) has a lot to do with it.

That concept is not one that is likely to be adopted anywhere else in the world. I mean let’s face it–how comfortable would you be thinking of England (a place where a 1,000 year old pub or church is not all that unusual) as a “nation of immigrants” with the cultural impermanence and fluidity that this implies? Do you think France, Spain or Israel would go for that concept?

Regards,

Inna

do know that we in the US don’t have nearly the same sort of problem you guys or Israelis or Europeans as a whole do.

I explained the reasons to you before. Its obvious to me that you failed to find that four year old kid to explain it.

Americans are brought up to be patriotic from kindergarten. American Muslims are a miniscule, tiny , almost insignificant number. Maybe less than 1% whereas in the UK its 3%, probably in France its 5-7% and in Scandinavia it might also be 4-5%.

Americans can carry guns!

A lot of right-wing media (I love it) tends to bat down nutters like CAIR and Nation of Islam.

Holy Land convictions - keep your heads down guys.

Society that is highly pro-Israel and proud of it. If you try and knock Israel you get argued with. If you do that in the UK you get applauded and invited to write articles and host seminars. If you are particularly Islamist and radical, support Hamas and suicide bombers then you get to work with the police and Government Ministers.

That was the precis.

“I explained the reasons to you before.”

Yes, you’ve explained to me your version of the reason. I’ve heard it before–and I don’t buy it.

I don’t buy it because of my own, personal experience as an immigrant.

Yes, the flag and the trappings of civic life are very important: in school, at work, in public office. But that (IMO) is Because we are a nation of immigrants. Over 15 “threshold” languages are spoken in Los Angeles County alone–meaning that LA must be able to provide publicly health care services in at least 16 languages (if you count English).

So all we, this mish-mash of people from every corner of the globe, have to hold us together is the flag, the reverence for the Constitution, and patriotism. For us, patriotism is a necessity; what makes an American an American.

That simply is not the case in the UK. You have a history of many thousands of years, the venerable building, the Church of England, the Monarchy, even the Parliament to hold you together. You have “ways of doing things” that have been worked out over a very, very long time.

Quite often the people in your city are the people you grew up with.

All that, is simply not true here.

Regards,

Inna

Maven,

Wouldnt that mean that American Muslims can carry guns too? What would concern a Muslim in America about Americans with guns coming from countries like Somalia or Pakistan?

“A lot of right-wing media (I love it) tends to bat down nutters like CAIR and Nation of Islam.”

The Nation of Islam has a long history in America. Longer than right-wing media. CAIR is actually more insignificant and miniscule to the larger Muslim American community than Muslims are in America. The NOI? I dont see the parallels.

What do the Muslims in France have to do with the Muslims in UK or in Scandinavia? I thought the differences between Europeans and US Muslims were in immigration?

Maven,

Isnt Isreal a patriotic society? Dont they carry guns? Dont they convict and kill terrorist also? Arent Arab Muslims an insignificant minority as well? What effect does this have on their Arab Muslim population? The same as the US?

Re the Daily Mail’s link above which leads to ‘British born terrorists amongst arrested suspects” headline I ask am I living on a different planet?
I understood from TV reports that there was only 1 terrorist arrested - a Pakistani - and all the other terrorists (9) were killed. Have I been misinformed? I haven’t exactly hit the ground running on this one. Am I completely out of touch? Or is the Daily Mail pulling my p…..?

Wouldnt that mean that American Muslims can carry guns too? What would concern a Muslim in America about Americans with guns coming from countries like Somalia or Pakistan?

Terrorists would know that their intended victims can shoot back.

The Nation of Islam has a long history in America. Longer than right-wing media

Dinosaurs are older than NOI. So what?

What do the Muslims in France have to do with the Muslims in UK or in Scandinavia? I thought the differences between Europeans and US Muslims were in immigration?

Now I realise that you are just trying to get me to do all the work. The question has such a big answer I can’t be arsed to type it.

Maven,

Isnt Isreal a patriotic society? Dont they carry guns? Dont they convict and kill terrorist also? Arent Arab Muslims an insignificant minority as well? What effect does this have on their Arab Muslim population? The same as the US?

See? You just want me to answer lots of irrelevant questions and when I do you will just keep asking. I’m a seasoned poster (at other places) I recognise the model. I might even recognise you!

Irrelevant? Incoherent, you mean.

Maven,

You said the nature of American society reduces the incidences of support for terrorism or Islamist politics there. Fine. I agree. But I read somewhere that the reason why the problems are different in Europe and the US wasnt due to the difference between the US and Europe but the types of Muslim immigrants these countries imported- professional Muslims in the US, tribal bumbkins in Europe.

And if Isreal has a society like the US, than its Arab Muslim population would also be like the Arab Muslim population in the US. Right?

If Europe became like the US, would that change the politics of its Muslim population?

Isnt there far less support for Islamist politics in France, in the UK? Yet they have twive the Muslim population and no guns.

The NOI arent supporters of terrorism and they certainly arent Islamist. They are black nationalist. Why you would lump them in with CAIR is beyond me.

Bow ties are not turbans?

Sue R,

I fixed it.

Maven,

“Terrorists would know that their intended victims can shoot back.”

I see this being very effective.

Maven,

Finally, I am suspicious of you trying to push the line that there are no differences among Muslims just differences in the Western countries they live in. This doesnt sound safe. President Bush told us Americans that the Iraqis and Afghanis wanted to live in free and prosperous societies and we have sent thousands of Americans and billions of dollars to see that it happens. Now if the only thing that is going to pacify Muslims is the 2nd Amendment and American jingoism, what the hell are we in Iraq for?

“Finally, I am suspicious of you trying to push the line that there are no differences among Muslims just differences in the Western countries they live in.”

It’s not just “Western” countries. Look, something does happen to people when they move from one country to another. I tried to find this study but I have too many favorites and so can’t find the link. But a while back, Israeli sociologists did a long-term study of the Palestinian suicide bombers who had not gone off and who had been released to Jordan.

A lot of them, the majority actually, wound up getting on with their lives: getting married, having kids, finishing school, starting a business. All this in a country that is not known for being especially nice to Palestinians. So something happened.

Saudi Arabia runs a rehabilitation program for would be suicide bombers. The Saudis say it’s a success. If they’re right–again something happens.

The UK has a problem with home-grown terrorists; the US (knock on wood) does not. You are arguing (essentially) that part of the reason at least is that a lot of the Muslims in the UK are Pakistani and poor. But we have lots of poor Pakistanis here too. Maybe not as many as in the UK, but certainly more than enough for a terror cell or two. That we don’t have that terror cell or two (as far as I know) is to me yet another indication that “something happens.”

Regards,

Inna

The news now seems to be that none were British.
It’d be interesting to have a detailed look at the sorts of Pakistani that emigrated to America and to Britain. If we got the rural peasants and the Americans got the urban professionals that might be more useful in working out differences in attitude than looking at raw numbers. I can’t find much on this subject on the web though.

jon d,
Very dangerous ground your grouping of peoples idea. Sounds almost Himmleresque. Myself am Welsh mountain stock for the record.
When I came to live in Austria 10 years ago the third question the third question the authorities asked me was “What is your religion?” (I replied “None.”)
I wonder in which group would you would put the old Pakistani who used to cut my hair? We often played chess when business was quiet. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t terrorist material. When he chain-smoked during Ramadan he’d say ‘Don’t tell anybody.’ Suspicious or what?

Maven,

You said the nature of American society reduces the incidences of support for terrorism or Islamist politics there. Fine. I agree.

Great, we’re getting there - but is this the rapport before the dump?

But I read somewhere that the reason why the problems are different in Europe and the US wasnt due to the difference between the US and Europe but the types of Muslim immigrants these countries imported- professional Muslims in the US, tribal bumbkins in Europe.

I think I can agree with the idea that Europe’s closeness to Africa, Middle East and Asia compared with the US means that immigration (including illegal) was easier and widespread. But don’t forget that France and UK have a history of colonisation in those regions and so immigration from them is more natural and easier. In addition, once you have a seed family then the extended family tends to emigrate into the protective ghetto before assimilating - if at all. viz many Asian women who can’t speak english because they have been isolated by their husbands to stay at home.

And if Isreal has a society like the US, than its Arab Muslim population would also be like the Arab Muslim population in the US. Right?

except that many/some of them are ‘at war’ extensions of Hamas and Fatah. They are a bit like the IRA or Basques. However, I believe polls taken of Israeli Arabs show they prefer to live in Israel than a Palestinian State. Many Arabs in Israel flourish.

If Europe became like the US, would that change the politics of its Muslim population?

If we were insistent on allegiance to the flag and were patriotic ourselves then I believe we could build a culture of loyalty. However, it seems that some Muslims are more loyal to the Ummah than to their host country. Hence “kill brits because of what is happening in Palestine or Kashmir”. Frankly, I don’t see a big chance of change.

Isnt there far less support for Islamist politics in France, in the UK? Yet they have twive the Muslim population and no guns.

Far less than which measure. I think we find that Islamists are MORE militant and Radical than in the USA. Lookup Channel Four (4) Undercover Mosques or google for “panorama mcb ware” to see programs on attitudes to Islamist principles prevalent in the UK. Look at Paris suburb riots. Look at the rise of antisemitism in France.

The NOI arent supporters of terrorism and they certainly arent Islamist. They are black nationalist. Why you would lump them in with CAIR is beyond me.

An error. All that Farrakhan shares with CAIR is that NOI is more overtly antisemitic than CAIR. I once used the NOI as an example of people of a non-Asian and non-Arab race who say they are Muslims to demonstrate that “Islam” and “Muslim” aren’t a race. It was loose of me.

I appreciate you took time to re-post your questions in what I found a more coherent form and so I took time to answer them, Black Voter.

Bard: needless to say, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Makes more sense than essentialising about all muslims or even all pakistanis imo, the difference in education and outlook between an urban professional and a rural peasant in Pakistan is, I would suggest, probably even greater than between their Welsh counterparts.

Finally, I am suspicious of you trying to push the line that there are no differences among Muslims just differences in the Western countries they live in. This doesnt sound safe. President Bush told us Americans that the Iraqis and Afghanis wanted to live in free and prosperous societies and we have sent thousands of Americans and billions of dollars to see that it happens. Now if the only thing that is going to pacify Muslims is the 2nd Amendment and American jingoism, what the hell are we in Iraq for?

Islam, through its radical Islamist Terrorists and Jihadis attacked us “infidels” on 9/11 and have attacked The West and Israel for many years previously through adopting the Mecca/Medina period writings of the Koran and the Warlord/Prophet Mohammed.

One day, just after 9/11 I was shocked on a radio program to hear that the Koran says “Take not the Christians and the Jews for friends for they be friends to each other” Sura 5:54 (for UK people it was the famous Ken of phone-in’s).

As you explore the Koran and Hadith’s you realise there is a strand of permission to kill Jews and Infidels and to “smite them at the neck”.

Western Support for Israel meant that ‘infidels’ had to be killed for that support and preachers like Qaradawi were bold enough to state that Israeli women and children could be suicide bombed, as well as US and UK troops in Iraq.

No, Islamists have declared war on us. Its a bit like Invasion of The Body Snatchers - a bit. Its analogy is that ordinary Muslims may be slowly being convinced by Islamist propaganda to change.

BTW - Galloway said that he was preparing a PCC complaint over all the headlines that he said “that Brits were responsible for Mumbai”.

A bit of hyperbole as I believe the papers said that one or some of the terrorists were thought to be British. I don’t think that makes them ‘responsible’. “Participants” would perhaps have been the right word. However, it seems the papers jumped the gun. I think it was based on a photo and description of one of the terrorists whom they assumed looked like a British Asian.

Mumbais Terrorist admits that Israelis were targetted

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042203.html

The only terrorist captured by Indian authorities following a string of deadly attacks that rocked Mumbai in recent days told interrogators during questioning that he and his men were sent specifically to kill Israelis to avenge the “atrocities” against the Palestinians, the Times of India reported Sunday.

Amir Kasab, 21, told investigators that this was why they targeted the Chabad center in the Nariman House in Mumbai, a complex meant for Israelis. Sources said Kasab’s colleagues killed in the operation had stayed at the Nariman House in the past.

“They have stayed in Nariman house on rental basis identifying themselves as Malaysian students.” said a source. Police were trying to determine why Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews, the Times of India reported.

The Foreign Ministry said Saturday that nine people - most Israelis, some dual citizens but all of them Jews - were killed in an attack on the Chabad house, one of ten symbols of luxury and foreign appeal targeted by terrorists in a series of coordinated attacks that left at least 195 people dead, and hundreds wounded

They stayed at Nariman House due to the charitable kindness of those who they slaughtered.

David T - Neal - Gene, can we make this a new thread to counter all those conspiracy stories that Mossad did this.

Kasav, who speaks fluent English, told investigators he and his fellow terrorists had trained at a camp at the Mangla dam between Pakistani Punjab and Pakistan-held Kashmir.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5258458.ece

Fluent English eh? Obviously gained by watching “Coronation Street” and no possibility whatsoever he learnt it on a street in the UK.

xyzzy 28 November 2008, 8:53 pm

“felix is either Clive James or has read his essays - specifically his review of Goldhagen’s book - a lot…”

I simply have to reply to this before reading the rest of the mail. My dear boy or girl! I had never heard of Clive Barnes until today. But I’m glad you mentioned him as I have started googling him. I sympathise with many of his political views - not all. His IQ as a child was 140; my IQ at school was oo.oo. I’m not joking. I must have a different kind of unmathematical intelligence. But he wrote his Ph.D. thesis on Percy Bysshe Shelley, and that makes him a soul mate. Thank-you, I will investigate him further.

Ot: Clive James’ autobiographical ‘unreliable memoirs’ is one of the funniest books I’ve ever read.
Mostly he’s known for hosting clipshows of japanese gameshows though.

“They have stayed in Nariman house on rental basis identifying themselves as Malaysian students.” said a source. Police were trying to determine why Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews, the Times of India reported.

And no doubt the Jews at that house thought they were very friendly. See, you can be friends with Muslims.

Jon D, Wasn’t the Glasgow Airport attack carried out by a bunch of doctors? I don’t really see how it would help anybody to compile such Orwellian statistics as you speak of. It seems to me to be only an excuse to further erode our liberties.

Yeah glasgow was Doctors - I was a bit suprised how badly they did there really, being educated fellas.

“These were not poor, madrasah-educated Pakistanis from the villages, brainwashed by mullahs, but angry and well-educated, middle-class kids furious at the gross injustice they perceive being done to Muslims by Israel, the US, the UK and India in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir respectively.”

And what, pray, is the purpose of this quote, TheIrie?

TheIrie, I am reminded of the phrase “Kindness Kills”. We’ve been TOO kind. We should be wiping out Terrroists whether Palestinian, Lebanese, Pakistani or home grown.

By doing-so we spare them the mysery of continual whining and feeling sorry for their self-inflicted agonies.

We also tell Terrorism - No More Thanks.

I am reminded that head honcho Osama Bin Laden is a millionaire.

Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros @ 28 November 2008, 6:22 pm

J S Mill: “Free institutions are next to impossible in a country made up of different nationalities. Among a people without fellow-feeling, especially if they read and speak different languages, the united public opinion necessary to the working of representative government cannot exist.”

JS Mill hadn’t noticed the existence of Switzerland, then. And, of course he lived an awful long time before representative government came to the UK.

Maven,

I dont see what monolingual Asian wives have to to with Islamism and I am not convinced that the riots in Paris had anything to do with Islamism either. A reaction like that to police brutality could have happened anywhere- Los Angeles.

“…preachers like Qaradawi were bold enough to state that Israeli women and children could be suicide bombed, as well as US and UK troops in Iraq.”

Was the preacher Qaradawi quoting the warlord Muhammed when he stated this? It was my understanding that women were enslaved or married off, and the children enslaved, as was the custom in those times. Whats changed?

“Take not the Christians and the Jews for friends for they be friends to each other” Sura 5:54

I read this verse and those that proceeded it and I have to say, I wouldnt want to be friends with anyone who mocked my religion and was secretly holding a lot of resentment towards me.

I personally believe that Al Qaida and other Islamist (though I dont believe every Islamist is a terrorist) have constructed a new but old ideology and to the extent that this finds sympathy among Muslims, there will be problems. I dont see Muslim people unattached to these ideas as hair triggers. It is why we are so hopeful about Iraq and Afghanistan.

Been away since Friday 28th lunchtime and just picked up all this wild speculation on my return home. None of you know who perpetrated this horrer and you’re not likely to know for some time.

It isn’t good to fill gaps in your knowledge by making things up. That’s how murderous prejudices start.

Felix

This was written by someone called Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros. If that isn’t multiculturism I don’t know what is. I could write pages about the cultural enrichment resulting from mixed cutures. What the Jews didn’t do for Germany before they were expelled or killed. Somone above has already pointed out the the mixture of races that went into making the modern Englishman. fFrench and Anglo-Saxon lived side by side, and it is thanks to the French influence that we have the language of Shakespeare in which all the guttural Germanic sounds either disappeared or were softened and blended with French words. You don’t grow nationally by looking at your own belly-button all the time. Now in Verona I can make couscous with all trappings, I can buy all the products for cooking Indian meals. The shop downstairs now sells fresh ginger. All this is quite recent thanks to immigration. No give me a multicultural society any day! If you are Jewish, Jusuf, you are coming close to justifying anti-semitism.

Surely you didn’t write this sober?

Some facts to check:

The pseudoconcept, or to use the Randian term ‘anticoncept’, of ‘race’. How did it apply to the genesis of premodern Britain exactly?

Frenchman and Anglo-Saxon (no doubt chimaeras by the C.11th) did not live side by side, at least not in the trendy postmodern ’social justice’ sense. Weren’t Normans of Danish stock? Wouldn’t they have had rather a lot in common with the Angle part of the Angle-Saxon chimaera species?

Wouldn’t Wesley have had more of an influence on the English language than Shakespeare in terms of Latin/Greek cognates? Shakespeare stole his ‘work’ from Marlowe.

Isn’t the relative availability of ginger and couscous slightly irrelevant to the debate on immigration? Given ginger’s availability in the West from the C.10th and the fact that Verona is considerably nearer the orient than the UK, wouldn’t these ingredients have been available prior to modern immigration flows? Isn’t their relative availability thanks more to transportation and tourism rather than immigration?

Tadros is a Coptic Christian name meaning ‘God’s gift’…you might know someone called ‘Theodore’ or ‘Teodoro’?

Anti-semitism is in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent. I can’t quite see how disapproving of modern immigration flows to the UK constitutes anti-Semitism, but still…

Shalom!

I dont see what monolingual Asian wives have to to with Islamism

Indeed, they are a top shelf magazine that one might find in your local corner shop.

Apologies, I think I mean Asian Babes.

Anyway, insist on an arranged marriage, bring across a bride who doesn’t speak English, keep her at home, force her to wear a Burkha in public - then complain when she is discriminated against in some way. Make a court case funded by an Islamist group and it becomes a cause celebre. Then feed it into the many myths of prejudice against Muslims - drive an Islamist agenda. Use it to show that Muslims are denied rights and experience prejudice……………….

That’s one way.

I’ve just found out that the Rabbi and his wife plus the other people killed were tied up and tortured before being killed, probably on the first day of the siege. The Indian doctor who carried out the postmortem said that despite being used to examine bomb victims, he found the injuries so disturbing he did not even want to think about them. (see ‘Rediff’ or Shiraz Socialist for further information.)