Harry’s Place

Is this bad news she’d like to bury, or is she genuinely a cretin? Recall, the transcript, on the RESPECT site, of a revolting Galloway speech which disappeared when it coincided with the execution of Gayle Williams.

“In video messages explaining their motivations the culprits make a clear and explicit linkage between their intentions and the impact of Western foreign policy in Muslim lands.”

If every group of aggrieved people blew subways to protest….

History demonstrates, in the establishment of the US, France, modern Turkey, how the only way to battle religious fascism is by embedding structures that resist it within your society. No amount of cosying up or conciliation will appease the extremist inspired by God. Create and enforce these structures, while fighting fire with fire, and eventually this curse will wither away. Bend to its will and it will bend you further - until you break.

Most of us are ordinary decent people, so intuitively fail to understand why we must be “nasty”, why these kind of people won’t respond to reason. Surely they must have a grievance, we must have done something wrong - but actually I’m afraid it’s worse than that: we’ve done nothing wrong, yet these people, animated by the spirit of an ideology that excuses violence (which we have to face - we can’t keep denying it) wish to impose their will upon us, and thereby legitimise (in their view) themselves and their God. All we can do is fight or submit. It is time to wake up, or be smothered in our sleep.

David T, did you catch Ed Hussein interviewed on C4 news?

To some Islamists the existence of Israel is seen as occupation of Islamic lands.

If we were to throw Jews out of Israel to satisfy these people we then have to throw the Spanish out of Al Andalus and a few Europeans of their countries. Al Qaeda claim Al Andalus and other Islamist will say that any land once conquered by Islam becomes Islamic land.

Anjem Choudray on Newsnight told us all that Britain is Islamic lands as ALL land belongs to Allah.

I think the UK needs a new Bill called “Fuck-off Elsewhere if you don’t like it here”. Unfortunately I believe that’s a BNP policy.

I think Ed Hussain had a good idea. Islamist Reprogramming camps run by Imams who would use the Koran to challenge Islamist Radicals.

No leaving until you are de-progarmmed.

To be fair, whilst Salma Yaqoob’s political analysis and general position reflect the flaws of the Respect/Islamist line, she raises a valid point.

Whilst I have no doubt that the unsophisticated grievance politics of extremists would have found succour whether we invaded or not, it is worth considering the extent to which the Iraq excursion has contributed to jihadi recruitment and motivation.

There’s nothing wrong with actually considering this, mainly so we can make a correct assessment of the impact and effects of the war, and a retrospective judgement as to it’s propriety.

Even if we decided that it had contributed to extremist recruitment however, I think that that fact would be irrelevant if we decide that the war itself was justified.

“Instead it blames a “dangerous Islamist ideology” for creating a hatred of the “Western way of life” as if such ideology is free standing and exists in some kind of vacuum.”

That dangerous ideology is anything but free-standing. It is vested in the 1400 years of the history of islam, and the track record of it’s founding prophet. Wherever there is islam there is terrorism, extortion, persecution, and civil war. And that includes places like Indonesia, the Phillipines and Malaysia, which have sweet fanny adams to do with Israel, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
She doesn’t want you to notice things like that.

it is worth considering the extent to which the Iraq excursion has contributed to jihadi recruitment and motivation.

Certainly. Just as it is worth considering the extent to which Western inaction over Bosnia has contributed to jihadi recruitment and motivation.

History always provides material to the recruiting sergeant. But the recruiting sergeant itself is Islamist ideology.

We can recognise that ideology pretty easily these days. It is the one that involves recognising the right of jihadists to “resist”.

“I think Ed Hussain had a good idea. Islamist Reprogramming camps run by Imams who would use the Koran to challenge Islamist Radicals.”

I pretty much agreed with you up to that bit. But the only way you will ever use the quran to de-program radicals, is if you hit them over the head with it until you break their skulls. Because all the violent crap they are doing is prescribed in that bloody book.

Er, right. So in a free country, let’s start internment camps for outlandish radicals. Hmmm, what a great defence of liberal democracy.

Maybe it would be better if we liberals got out and got our hands dirty at the grassroots level. This is where the islamists beat us hand down.

The Ed Hussein interview earlier this evening is about 1min 20ecs…

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1529573111/bclid3347113001/bctid3467106001

David, I totally agree that there will always be a reason for recruitment, but I think that that recruitment can happen within various contexts of receptivity and that it is worth considering the contribution that Iraq has made to creating an environment amenable to radical arguments.

Which obviously isn’t to say Iraq is a justification for jihadis.

And Monty, this a blog for lefty progressives, not bigots and essentialists. Crawl back under your stone.

So in a free country, let’s start internment camps for outlandish radicals. Hmmm, what a great defence of liberal democracy.

FUTURE FORWARD

I’m lost. Which are you referring to?

“Islamist Reprogramming camps run by Imams who would use the Koran to challenge Islamist Radicals.

No leaving until you are de-progarmmed.”

That’s sounds like an internment camp to me.

(sorry don’t know how to insert quotes)

“And Monty, this a blog for lefty progressives, not bigots and essentialists. Crawl back under your stone.”

I can’t, you are already under there, taking up all the room.

No suprise. Galloway isn’t covering Mumbai on Talksport

Use the blockquote tag.

To be honest, I don’t take anything Maven says as trustworthy unless there is an independent source. Still, it doesn’t sound like an internment camp.

The idea of appealing to religious precepts to counter radical interpretations puts us in a bind anyway.

The interrelationship between the religion and politics for many Muslims is complex. Part of the problem is this linkage. Getting an imam to argue for a different set of interpretations merely says you’ve interpreted this wrong, rather than saying don’t use religion as a basis for political discourse.

If Saddam Hussain had been left in charge of Iraq with sanctions leading to the deaths of children, that would have been used by the jihadis.

If they were seriously interested in the wellbeing of muslims they would say ‘Great. A muslim majority country which was a vile dictatorship is now a democracy’. They don’t say this because they are not interested in he wellbeing of muslims.

A February 2008 poll of Iraqis for broadcasters ABC, ARD, BBC and NHK asked this question:

From today’s perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong that U.S.-led coalition forces invaded Iraq in spring 2003?

Note “all things considered” and “today’s perspective”. That perspective includes the experience of the horrific jihadi carnage after the invasion. That is, the work of the Iraqi “resistance” which RESPECT has supported.

Well, here are the “absolutely right” + “somewhat right” Iraqi answers:

Kurds: 87%
Shiite: 65%
Sunni: 5%

Yaqoob wants people to think that British Sunni Islamist = Iraqi Muslim = global Muslim.

Sadly, this propaganda is music to the ears of lots and lots of (often wilfully) ignorant Brits marooned on the further reaches of the left and right.

What a mess Britain is in.

You can stand in total opposition to jihadism and islamists, and still think that actually a great many of them probably do genuinely care a great deal.

Er, right. So in a free country, let’s start internment camps for outlandish radicals. Hmmm, what a great defence of liberal democracy.

Pleased you agree. How quickly can we set some up? I have no problem about internment camps if it stops terrorism in the UK or terrorist goingt abroad. Why would anyone object?

Monty,

What if after we get rid of the bloody book and the religion they resort to civil war based on race, or terrorism based on land, or persecution based on language? What if they find another religion to fight about or over or because of? What to do then?

Monty - give it a fucking break.

I’ve looked at that poll, here’s what it says as far as I can see:

From today’s perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong that U.S.-led coalition forces invaded Iraq in spring 2003?

Absolutely Right 21%
Somewhat Right 28%
Somewhat Wrong 23%
Absolutely Wrong 27%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/14_03_08iraqpollmarch2008.pdf

Maven wrote:

“I have no problem about internment camps…”

are you a fascist or just off your head?

I appreciate that in the past you’ve said strange things about the BNP and come out as barely thinking about what you write, but DON’T you know any history?

internment camps are used by fascist (and Stalinist) regimes to lock up people

so turn your mind back to the 1930s and think, for a moment, if you can

‘internment camps are used by fascist (and Stalinist) regimes to lock up people’

The British used internment in Northern Ireland in the early 70s.

and some more:

Q19 Since the war, how do you feel about the way in which the United States and other Coalition forces have carried out their responsibilities in Iraq? Have they done a very good job, quite a good job, quite a bad job, or a very bad job?

A very good job 6%
Quite a good job 23%
Quite a bad job 35%
A very bad job 35%
Refused/Don’t know 1%

Funnily enough, the BBC did not provide the Kurdish / Shiite / Sunni breakdown.

You will find it on ABC (see question 8 on page 18 of the pdf).

What a success those Northern Irish internment camps turned out to be.

To be honest, I don’t take anything Maven says as trustworthy unless there is an independent source. Still, it doesn’t sound like an internment camp.

Of course not. You’ve already dissed me so why wouldn’t you discredit me.

100% true. He said it on a BBC radio programme one Sunday afternoon over a year ago.

That’s interesting. I couldn’t see any info on the distribution within the sample, nor how they calculated each different set of percentages.

Interesting that neither set included both figures.

Damn lies and statistics and all.

internment camps are used by fascist (and Stalinist) regimes to lock up people

And the USA for Japanese citizens in WW2 and against Germans in the UK during ww2 .

Hence internment has been used to isolate perspective dangers.

Ed Hussain’s idea was that they get released when deemed ‘cured’.

So Ed’s suggestion is that we hold people against their will merely because they hold political views we find objectionable until they agree with us?

Sounds like Ed hasn’t been fully deprogrammed himself.

So Ed’s suggestion is that we hold people against their will merely because they hold political views we find objectionable until they agree with us?

I’m impressed that you caught on so quickly.

Apologies to Galloway - they callers are discussing it. One nutter tells us its CIA. MI5 and Mossad wot did it.

BTW google for “Mossad Mumbai” its a great laugh.

To be fair to Salma, Caroline Lucas didn’t sound much better on Any Questions tonight blathering on about Palestine being the root cause of the attacks in Mumbai. She garnered the approval of the audience for that, as well as her suggestion that we should pull out of Afghanistan because that also was provoking extremists. It’s the first question.

One nutter tells us its CIA. MI5 and Mossad wot did it.

Did George attempt to convince him this was unlikely?

Sorry the Any Questions recording isn’t up yet.

The Iraqis will be alright. It’ll just take some time is all. And of course Iraqis don’t like their country being occupied by someone else’s military. I wouldn’t like it either. They’ve been given the key to the door of freedom though. I sincerely hope they don’t fuck it up.

Yeah, I’m pretty smart like that. I can spot authoritarian thought police from a 100 yards too.

They haven’t updated the audio stream yet, so I haven’t had a chance to listen but that’s ridiculous.

Saudi Arabia has a de-progamming operation. It may well “work”, in the Saudi context. The KSA is quite keen on it.

However, I hope no one important thinks Saudi ways should be applied in Britain. You might as well hand the Met over to the Kray twins to do things proper, like.

That’s a bit glib. 100,000 people is a heavy price to pay, and those lives count, irrelevant of the obvious merits of freedom.

Even after our troops leave we now have a responsibility to help maintain and nurturing democracy in Iraq. Failure isn’t an option.

habibi,

I dont know. Painting and play station? Thats a luxury.

Maven,

I take it all back, you are without thought or history, as people have pointed out “internment camps” have a long and nasty history:

from the Boer War, Soviet Gulags to Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy along to WW2 and unjustifiably imprisoning Japanese-Americans and beyond

you might want to look them up and think for a moment

You can’t have deprogramming camps.

I do think that a start would be to keep eyes open for jihadist activity in prisons: something that is said to go on. And I do think that there’s no objection to positive theological guidance in prisons, taking its place.

But to lock people up, purely to change their views - that’s unthinkable.

I’ve heard that Salma Yaqoob has got one of Abu Hamzas enforcers involved in Birmingham.
Anyone have any detail?

What a toxic and distorted piece…Sr Salma is a good women who represents the interests of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. You depict her as some kind of Brit hating witch, let me tell you a secret, there are thousands of British Muslims who share her sentiment that the scope and scale of extremist thought in the community is fuelled by injustices, bombing, killing, chaos and destruction perpertrated in Muslim lands under the implict or direct patronage of the West. When will your humanity allow you to shed a tear or hold a minutes silence for the million dead in Iraq, or the 250,000 dead in Afghanistan, the daily bloodshed in Somalia or at the desperate and destitute state of over a million people who reside in a large prison called Gaza!

Join our campaign to boycott Shariah Compliant high street banks.

Help us to conduct this significant and achievable strike back against the creep of Shariah law into our secular way of life.

The campaign will be developing over the coming days and weeks… We would appreciate your feedback.

” the daily bloodshed in Somalia ”

As I recall, a certain philanderer-in-chief tried to do something about warlords in Somalia. Didn’t go awfully well.

indeed Ibrahim but let’s not forget Darfur either

http://www.sudanreeves.org/

I presume,Ibrahim, that you are glad that the most vicious and active killers in Iraq have been defeated within their own communities, and desire the same result in Afghanistan.

BV:

“What if after we get rid of the bloody book and the religion they resort to civil war based on race, or terrorism based on land, or persecution based on language? What if they find another religion to fight about or over or because of? What to do then?”

Just as well no-one applied that logic to the Japanese, at the end of WW2, isn’t it? The best thing that happened to them, was the humiliation of their god, Hirohito. Ultimately it set them free from a pathological religious zealotry.

Why would deliverance from a perverse religious dogma not benefit the muslim people to a similar degree? You seem to be saying that once relieved of the obligation to prosecute a jihad, they would all go searching for any other old pretext for going to war anyway.

Why would you expect that? Why do you have such a jaundiced view of the populations of the islamic world?

Ibrahim writes the perfect example of the attitude I described in the post below.

ON this blog, he’ll be challenged on his pre-conceived sense of injustice. It’ll be interesting to see if he responds…

When will your humanity allow you to shed a tear or hold a minutes silence for the million dead in Iraq,

I shed a tear when Shia Arab Iraqis and Sunni Kurd Iraqis voted in democratic elections in huge numbers despite the threat of Islamist murderers bent on death and chaos.

How DARE you pretend to care for the “million dead in Iraq” when you know perfectly well that the bloodshed and chaos was wrought by Sunni Jihadis picking a civil war with the Shia Iraqi majority.

It wasn’t about Islam at all. As any Sunni Kurd proves.

You lying, hypocritical piece of shit.

or the 250,000 dead in Afghanistan,

Every single opinion poll of the Afghan people since 2001 has overwhelmingly supported the overthrow of the Taliban.

Afghanistan would have a chance - if it weren’t for the Taliban insisting on imposing their form of Islam on all muslims.

the daily bloodshed in Somalia

As long as you never ever mention the black african muslims being murdered by Arab muslims in Darfur…

or at the desperate and destitute state of over a million people who reside in a large prison called Gaza!

I’m all for a Palestinian State. Because I actually care about both Palestinians and Israelis.

You, however, are filthy hypocrit who bemoans Gaza while never stopping to ask yourself why Palestinian refugee Ghettos are dotted across the middle-east with less freedom,less rights and less hope than any in Gaza.

GO on. Answer. I dare you

“over a million people who reside in a large prison called Gaza!”

Singapore
HongKong
Macau
Have all been characterised by people breaking the law to get in.

They are absolutely teeming with folk. But those places give them a prospect of a better life. They work, they party, they hustle, and it is all good. It works.

How many people break the law to get into North Korea? Or Egypt? Syria?

There are quite a lot of people who are wondering why they are living in a shithouse, who ought to be re-considering the wisdom of shitting all over their own house.

I usually get here so late anymore that it’s more or less useless to reinvent the wheel when people like Monty, Phomsey and Maven have got most it all in before me. Most of the “defenders of the faith” are so predictable that it becomes tiresome to even point out the idiocy–so much re-plowed ground. But on the other hand that’s exactly how fanatics always win, isn’t it? They never stop while sensible people tire and move on to more productive and less sterile things. It really does require the energy and stamina of Sisyphus to keep these people at bay and contained.
But the ultimate reward is nothing less than our freedoms and our lives, so I guess I shall have to gird by loins so to speak
and try to renew my efforts even while gritting my teeth. One does not negotiate with Genghis Khan–only successfully resist, submit or die–as some people in Bombay (and the world) have been reminded anew…..

So the Mahdi army are now “jihadists”? That’s a new one. In fact it is a willfully ignorant way to characterise what is going on in Iraq - equivalent to putting your fingers in your ears and saying “la la la, can’t hear anything, la la la, its all just evil Jihadis”. In all cases, there are no doubt elements of Jihadi ideology. But, in Iraq and Afghanistan, British and American guns and bombs have killed thousands and thousands of people. This is not irrelevant. It is a rather important factor in what is going on, and Salma is right - pretending the only problem is “Islamism”, is very convenient, but utterly dishonest.

As for the right to resist occupation, rights must be universal. If the French had the right to resist German occupation, then the Iraqis have the right to resist American occupation. As do Afghanis and Palestinians.

Heh Ibrahim - as a Muslim let me tell you that you are giving us a bad name with your lies and deliberate inaccuracies.

About 250,000 people died in Iraq (not a million). And of that, 240,000 died in the hands of the Jihadists and Mahdists — i.e. in the name of the pedophile mass murderer Mohammad.

So what the f*** do these deaths have to do with “Western foreign policy” and Western “patronage”? Can’t Muslims also be responsible and accountable for their own actions - such as ethnic cleansing? Or being poor (which Iraqis are not — each family owns about $3 million in oil reserves) gives the poor a pass to commit any atrocity?

Once you denounce the death of 240,000 Iraqis in the hands of Islam, then I will join you to denounce the other 10,000 deaths due to US bombing of the enemy which resulted in unfortunate and very sad collateral damages.

On related theme: I am setting up a ‘Oppression of Muslims is to Blame’ watch (modelled on your Uncle Tom Watch) to note each any every person who says that the ‘real cause’ of the Mumbai bombings was the dreadfull plight faced by Muslims faced with, (pick and mix) Indian oppression, US oppression, UK Oppression, European oppression, and, last but not least, Zionist oppression.

Spotted so far: Tariq Ali, Caroline Lucas (spellling?) who made latter point on Radio Four Any Questions last night.

“So the Mahdi army are now “jihadists”? That’s a new one.”

This is a parody of TheIrie, right? Surely?

‘Iraqis have the right to resist American occupation’

But there is no American occupation. US troops are present in support of the democratically elected Iraq government and with a UN mandate. There is no more right to take violent action against US forces in Iraq than there is to take violent action against US forces in the UK or Germany.

I don’t think it is right, either, to say the Mahdi Army are “presently engaged in terrorist activity”: they seem to be mostly continuing their ceasefire, promoting large public demonstrations and backing the A-Sadr parliamentary bloc in the Iraqi assembly, all of which are surely kind of good (in the sense that they build public politics in Iraq rather than political violence)
Indeed the argument that they were “terrorist” generally doesn’t quite fit their better known acts, ie the Mahdi uprising of 2004 and the battle for Basra in 2008: These were certainly acts of political violence, but only “terrorist” if you think , say, the “Viet Cong” were “terrorist”.

Thank you Hamid for pointing out to Ibrahim what many people already understand.

If there are supposedly huge injustices in Muslim countries, perhaps Muslims in those areas could do something positive in their own backyard to relieve it all, or even act to prevent any escalation. It’s not as if there isn’t enough money in the Middle East.

Or maybe whole swathes of Muslims simply don’t care about other tribes.

Salma Yaqoob is not unique in her views nor in what she represents. Such figures have turned up before and in an open society will again. It is the price we pay for having the kind of society that we do, imperfect in so many ways but better in my view than any on offer. Ms Yaqoob will doubtless do what her predecessors have done when faced with a difficult question: Answer a different one or ask a question in reply. But here goes:

If all the ‘Muslims’ want is for ‘their lands’ back, why have so many left to come to the west?

So the Mahdi army are now “jihadists”?

Thick as mince in the neck of a bottle.

“But there is no American occupation.” Easy for you to say. Just like there was no German occupation in France, I suppose, since the Vichy Government was “elected”. For the average Iraqi, they consider themselves under US occupation. And its the sovereignty of the people that we should care about, not whatever “law” we have managed to impose on them.

If the French had the right to resist German occupation, then the Iraqis have the right to resist American occupation.

What about post 1945 German and Japanese hardliners?

As do Afghanis and Palestinians.

I was not aware there were American forces in the Gaza or the West Bank. Did I mention you are as thick as mince in the neck of a bottle?

About 250,000 people died in Iraq (not a million). And of that, 240,000 died in the hands of the Jihadists and Mahdists — i.e. in the name of the pedophile mass murderer Mohammad.

Very nice. And people here wonder why this site is seen as one primarily populated by bigots, fanatics and nutcases. A hate-site masquerading as a serious political website. Nobody is fooled.

How you possibly make a statement about proportions of people killed in Iraq. We have no real idea how many people have been killed in Iraq let alone the proportion killed by the Americans and Iraqis themselves. So what you do is just make up a figure which makes the side you are cheerleading for look good. Its absurd.

So is the main post itself. Its ridiculous to claim that all the people fighting in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan are jihadists. Such an idea would laughed out of court by any serious regional analyst. In Palestine half the groups opposing the occupation are secular. In Iraq there are a shifting patchwork of very differently groups fighting the Americans only some of which are ‘jihadist’ in thinking. Similarly a great deal of the fighters who are labelled ‘Taliban’ in Afghanistan are Pashtun men who have been very disillusioned by what has been happening in the country and have decided to take up arms against the Americans. This is why of course any serious analysis of the situation in Afghanistan recognises that we have to negotiate with that part of the so-called Taliban who are more concerned with national issues than religious ideology.

The whole tone of the post feel like a third rate piece of agitprop rather than a serious piece of analysis.

Change the record, Souled Out.

The comparison with Vichy France is absurd. There were no free and fair elections in Vichy France. There have been free and fair elections in Iraq. If you think violent action against US forces in Iraq is legitimate, do you think violent action against US forces in the UK or Germany would be legitimate?

Indeed, Bob, but remember you’re dealing with someone who expresses surprise at the Mahdi Army being called Jihadis, loosing his authority on the subject faster than Seymour’s on Indian communal relations when he states that 2/3 of Muslims live in J-K and 1/4 in West Bengal.

Quick, TheIrie, here’s another thread where you can extol the virtues of Islamic resistance. Then spin on this.

Whether they are pure Jihadis or not the Mahids are deeply unpleasant, thuggish and want a quasi-theocracy which is Shia -led. They, *like the occupation*, are part of the problem in Iraq, not the solution. This at any rate is the portait I got from reading Patrick Cockburn’s (unlike his mad brother he writes serious journalism, mainly on the Middle East) book specifically on this grouping. Also from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqtada_al-Sadr

Sparkbrook by contrast is with Yaqoob’s leadership is a glowing multi-cultural beacon. Er well….

Andrew - what you are saying is that the resistance to the occupation (which is primarily what the Mahdi army are about), like the occupation, is part of the problem in Iraq. OK - I can accept that. I wonder how one might solve both of those problems?

The Mahdi army are also about oppressing people. The people of Basra were very pleased to be rescued from them:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3671861.ece

No Western leftist would want to live under these people, but they think it’s fine for Iraqis. Very strange.

souled out - How you possibly make a statement about proportions of people killed in Iraq. We have no real idea how many people have been killed in Iraq let alone the proportion killed by the Americans and Iraqis themselves.

Bullshit you douchebag. There are detailed statistics kept of the carnage, by the Iraqi elected government, the health ministry, by NGOs, and by the coalition forces.

Your ignorance is astounding. For someone who claims to be oh so compassionate about the humanitarian cost in Iraq, you are one ignorant uninterested and removed douchebag.

Start with icausalties.org - for pete’s sake, and stop the reactionary postmodern lefty whining and douchebagging you moron.

Ann On - Indeed the argument that they were “terrorist” generally doesn’t quite fit their better known acts, ie the Mahdi uprising of 2004 and the battle for Basra in 2008: These were certainly acts of political violence, but only “terrorist” if you think , say, the “Viet Cong” were “terrorist”.

The point is not semantics. This is not an English class. We are talking about killers who would stone you on the blink of an eye, or marry you to an 80 year old by force, if you know what I mean.

These people ethnically cleansed half of Baghdad and killed easily 100,000 people. Now if that is not terrorism, then it is ethnic cleansing.

I mean, did the VietCong engage in ethnic cleansing?

For heaven’s sake, do not romanticize these fascist thugs and murderers, willya?

The Irie - what you are saying is that the resistance to the occupation (which is primarily what the Mahdi army are about …

Bullshit you douchebag. Mahdi army killed at least 100,000 sunnis in Baghdad, not to mention other provinces, and cleansed whole neighborhoods.

And you call that “resistance”? You call the takeover of the Iranian government by similar thugs in 1979 “resistance”?

You are one douchebag lefty reactionary supporter of Shia fascism, I see here. Get lost moron.

Mahdi Army is about GRABBING POWER and RULING. Get it MORON?

Cause I have seen it with my eyes, and you demented reactionary lefty ignorant has not.

Maven

I think Ed Hussain had a good idea. Islamist Reprogramming camps run by Imams who would use the Koran to challenge Islamist Radicals.

These ideas are doomed to fail. I’ve been working my way through Sayyed Imam’s (he formerly of Egyptian Jihad and behind Sadat’s assassination) second, much-vaunted refutation of jihadist ideology which has been serialised by an Egyptian daily: unfortunately, aside from more condemnation of az-Zawahiri as a scholar, there’s no serious condemnation of the ideology of jihad, just its relative application and timing.

Much the same can be said of the well publicised ‘re-education’ camps set up in Saudi to reform jihadists. Their premise seems to be that rewarding a rejection of violence deserves a reward such a house and and a big Mercedes. Yet, the scripture upon which the violence rests has not been deconstructed and rejected - it still exists unadulterated, ready to ensnare the next avid student of Maqdisi, Abu Qatadah or whichever ideologue comes along next. the demographics are also not helpful as they paint a picture of mostly ‘middle class’ educated believers who are unlikely to have received any significant Islamic education. This would suggest that securing a comfortable abode in this life is not part of most jihadists hierarchy of needs.

For me the problem lies in the literal belief in the Qur’an as God’s word. Only by thoroughly exposing this myth, an ongoing project not made any easier by the UK government or the UN to take just 2 examples, will all perceived divine justification for such acts of inhumanity unravel.

Ibrahim,

“…the daily bloodshed in Somalia…”

Surely even you can’t conceive of a conspiracy theory responsible for the festering carbuncle that is Somalia? Who is responsible for all the deaths there? Muslim Somalis or Muslim Ethiopians? Perhaps you envisage Ethiopian Orthodox bishops planting incendiaries and ducking back over the border?

Read my lips: ‘Islam is the problem NOT the solution’

“Today, of all days, we understand what that form of “resistance” means in practice.”

Oh fuck off. You are seriously trying to conflate the killing of civilians with resistance to foreign occupation and armies invading your land and killing civilians

“Surely even you can’t conceive of a conspiracy theory responsible for the festering carbuncle that is Somalia? Who is responsible for all the deaths there? Muslim Somalis or Muslim Ethiopians”

Ethipioans are Christians, dolt

TheIrie wrote:

“If the French had the right to resist German occupation, then the Iraqis have the right to resist American occupation. As do Afghanis and Palestinians.”

so you think that supporting the Taliban’s “resistance” is going to help the Afghan people?

Mod - I’ve no idea what you mean by that.

“Ethipioans are Christians, dolt”

Perhaps what you meant to say didn’t follow through to your typing on the keyboard. If you had said ‘Ethiopians WERE mostly Christian’ then I couldn’t but agree. What you need to ask yourself is what happened to cause your statement to be true historically but not today.

If you are a straw man then…why?

Comparisons between the British Army in Aghanistan and the Nazi occupation of France. Shameful.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/MarineTonyEvansAndMarineGeorgieSparksKilledInAfghanistan.htm

TheIrie wrote:

“Mod - I’ve no idea what you mean by that.”

In your previous statements you implied some continuity of legitimacy from the French resistance to Afghans, and I’m asking you if you believe that supporting the “resistance” in Afghanistan is in any way positive for Afghans?

again, do you believe that the actions of the Afghan “resistance”/Taliban are positive??

“If the French had the right to resist German occupation, then the Iraqis have the right to resist American occupation. As do Afghanis and Palestinians.”

French invaded by Germany - Yes

Iraq liberated by the USA - No

Afghanistan, warned and then invaded to capture Al Qaeda - No

Palestinians - No. Plalestinians never invaded. In fact, in 1967 they were liberated by Israel from Jordanian and Egyptian illegal occupation. Illegal under Article 5 of the Mandate for Palestine 1922 whereby it was illegal for any foreign power to occupy parts of Palestine. Hence, Israel as a UN member carried-out the will of the UN by removing Jordan and Egypt.

Bullshit you douchebag. There are detailed statistics kept of the carnage, by the Iraqi elected government, the health ministry, by NGOs, and by the coalition forces.
Your ignorance is astounding. For someone who claims to be oh so compassionate about the humanitarian cost in Iraq, you are one ignorant uninterested and removed douchebag.
Start with icausalties.org - for pete’s sake, and stop the reactionary postmodern lefty whining and douchebagging you moron.

The one link that you have provided gives detailed information about how many Amercians have been killed. Iraqi deaths appears in a small sub-section and the proviso that:

This is not a complete list, nor can we verify these totals. This is simply a compilation of deaths reported by news agencies. Actual totals for Iraqi deaths are much higher than the numbers recorded on this site.

In other words you have failed to provide any evidence to back up your absurd claims about relative casualties. You don’t have the faintest idea how many people have killed by suicide bombers, coalition forces, fighters etc. None of us do and it might be better if stopped making things up and stuck to the most scientific estimates produced so far - which were published in the Lancet and don’t tally with your estimates.

And a friendly word of advice. Calling people doucebags, morons and ‘postmodern’ are not a very good way of convincing people that you have anything intelligent to say. Viewers are more likely to draw the opposite conclusion.

there are thousands of British Muslims who share her sentiment that the scope and scale of extremist thought in the community is fuelled by injustices, bombing, killing, chaos and destruction perpertrated in Muslim lands under the implict or direct patronage of the West. When will your humanity allow you to shed a tear or hold a minutes silence for the million dead in Iraq, or the 250,000 dead in Afghanistan, the daily bloodshed in Somalia or at the desperate and destitute state of over a million people who reside in a large prison called Gaza!

Actually that’s not a secret at all. We understand that a significant portion of Western ( for now) Muslims feel they’ve the god-given right to lash out at anyone at anytime.

And you know doubt will, and when you do be prepared for the reaction…and the expulsions.

Recent Muslim antics in India have demonstrated to the entire globe just how islamists like you operate.

Do you have any sense of shame, or are you such a backward pagan savage that human life is meaningless?

Somalia? What’s your deep complaint here? No one can help Somalia…the whole country is stoned, the state has disintegrated and piracy is the now the conerstone of the state’s business plan.

Were the entire non-muslim community to completely disengage from the islamist world, that islamist world would resemble Somalia.

Somalia is the true face of Islam, an example of it’s natural “equalibrium”, when it no longer has anything or anyone non-islamic to parasite off of.

The entire Islamic world is facing the ‘Somalia scenario’.

Count your kuffur blessings, your subsidised housing, your medical care and your welfare cheques, you worthless, loudmouthed hypocrite

Mod - I don’t “support” the resistance, in Afghanistan or elsewhere. I’m merely saying that Afghanis have a right to resist foreign occupation. This doesn’t mean I support the Taliban.

‘Afghanis have a right to resist foreign occupation’

The Afghanis have a democratically elected government which wishes to have NATO troops in the country. They also have the support of the UN. There is no more right to take violent action against these troops than there is to take violent action against US forces in the UK.

Iraq liberated by the US

The overwhelming majority of the Kurds see it like this but the most of the Shia don’t, neither do the Sunnis nor I imagine would the 100,000s who have been killed or the millions who have had flee into exile to places like Syria.

For Iraq to move forward it really doesn’t matter what you think or how you define the American presence there. What matters is how the Iraqis themselves see it and it seem obvious that a great many of them don’t see it as a liberation.

TheIrie wrote:

“Mod - I don’t “support” the resistance, in Afghanistan or elsewhere.”

it is a very poor intellectual sleight of hand by you

the fact that you can’t come out and stand by your OWN convictions is strange but that’s not the main point, TheIrie, again, you have NOT answered the question:

do you believe that the actions of the Afghan “resistance”/Taliban are positive??

yes or no?

PS: if I had wanted to asked “do you support the Taliban?” I would have asked THAT question, but I didn’t, so please, try to engage with my above point, not a question that I haven’t ask.

The Afghanis have a democratically elected government which wishes to have NATO troops in the country. They also have the support of the UN. There is no more right to take violent action against these troops than there is to take violent action against US forces in the UK.

This is a crazy comparison to make because it seems relatively clear that the government, which is composed, in part, of a motley collection of warlords and drug trafickers has little popular legitimacy across wides swathes of the country. Its edict barely runs outside Kabul. All the UN mandates aren’t going to make a jot of difference whilst the Government legitimacy isn’t accepted as binding by large swathes of the population. This idea of creating a stable Western-style democracy in such a country was always a pipe dream.

Irie.
Have the elements of the Iraqi resistance that you supported stopped fighting?

So the Afghan government needs to have ‘popular legitimacy’ but a ‘Western-style democracy’ is ‘a pipe dream’. How do you get a government with popular legitimacy other than through democracy? Care to enlighten us?

There was no jihadi insurrection in Iraq until we created one by taking out the bulwark against it.

In Afghanistan, we are talking only about Pashtun nationalists who also happen to be extremely Islamic. They have no interest in anywhere except Afghanistan (possibly only the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan) and the northern part of Pakistan.

And as for Palestine, there has been a very close relationship between Israel and the ghastliest Arab regimes for donkey’s years, even if it is only now coming out into the open. Indeed, lest we forget, the next American Secretary of State was both Israel’s candidate for President, and the candidate of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates. They indicated their support in the customary green-backed form.

Whereas the Palestinians might as well not have existed (and still might as well not exist) to all parties in these arrangements, while Iran was literally to be nuked by Madam President on the instruction of any of those four.

Presumably as punishment for having elections, for having a reserved seat for Jews (and three for Christians, being two for Armenians and one for an Assyrian) in her Parliament, for having more women than men at university, and for having the most acclaimed contemporary cinema in the world.

I’m not sure a country like Afghanistan can be ruled from the centre under a Western democratic model. A patchwork of tribal fiefdoms would probably carry more legitimacy. Implanting a system of government which evolved organically in fairly bloody fashion over a period of many centuries in a region which was quite ethnically and culturally homogenous (Europe) into a fractured failed state riven by tribal and ethnic division always looked like a long shot.

Presumably as punishment for…… and for having the most acclaimed contemporary cinema in the world.

David,its becoming impossible to parody you.

“Presumably as punishment for…… and for having the most acclaimed contemporary cinema in the world.”

And pomegranate treacle. Don’t forget the pomegranate treacle.

‘A patchwork of tribal fiefdoms would probably carry more legitimacy.’

How do we find out what does and does not have legitimacy other than through elections?

Souled out, Afghanistan has suffered the agonies of tribal warfare for centuries. That is, Afghanistan has suffered them, not enjoyed them. What you are saying is that they should be left to lapse into yet another failed state overrun by cruel fanatics. Another Somalia, but without pirates.Your view is little different from that of yesteryear: “Wogs begin at Calais.” Approximately. IE: “They’re not our lot, let them get on with it.”

You are a posturing ponce.

Quote: Virgil Xenophon: “Most of the “defenders of the faith” are so predictable that it becomes tiresome to even point out the idiocy–so much re-plowed ground. But on the other hand that’s exactly how fanatics always win, isn’t it? They never stop while sensible people tire and move on to more productive and less sterile things. It really does require the energy and stamina of Sisyphus to keep these people at bay and contained.”

Surely this type of fanatic behaviour as described above, is symptomatic of a mild or even serious personality disorder, created of course in the forge of religious obsession.

Think about it, people willing to die, kill, maim, cause unproductive societal disorder, all to defend the honour of a God. Spurred on as usual by those “in authority” who promise them “rewards in heaven”, mind you, those who preach this stuff rarely go out to do the “dirty work”.

All sounds vaguely reminisint of facism to me.

Just out of interest to Jewish readers here: rense.com is running hard with
the “Mossad are behind the Mumbai attacks” angle. Most of their page is dominated by that.

They get hundreds of thousands of readers unfortunately.

They also have neo-Nazi stuff regularly.

Muslims are also busy circulating this stuff with the Muslim Brotherhood website ikhwanweb having an article which has also been put up by the well funded Wisdom Fund website also.

The Muslim Brotherhood for example ‘condemned’ the attacks on their ikhwanweb site but at the same time on the same time are running the Mossad did it line.

“do you believe that the actions of the Afghan “resistance”/Taliban are positive??” Not the Taliban, no. But the resistance - that is the population that oppose the occupation and work against it - no doubt do a lot of positive things. Take the RAWA for example - here’s a recent press release:
“Neither the US nor Jehadies and Taliban, Long Live the Struggle of Independent and Democratic forces of Afghanistan! ”

http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm

Nice try, TheIrie

I have long supported the RAWA, but you’ll see that their “resistance” is political, not blowing up schools, killing teachers and girls, or burning books

so it comes back to what do you define “resistance” as ?

peace groups like RAWA or someone planting bombs? or acts of unspeakable violence? or peaceful political opposition? which is it?

please do elaborate on “that is the population that oppose the occupation and work against it - no doubt do a lot of positive things.”

“no doubt”?? please tell us what EXACTLY these positive things are?

I am at a loss to think of any?

Irie.
Could I ask you again
Have the elements of the Iraqi resistance that you supported stopped fighting?

There is no objection to anyone in Afghanistan campaigning against the presence of NATO troops just as there no objection to anyone in the UK campaigning US bases. But there is an objection to groups using violence to oppose the policies of a democratically elected government in Afghanistan or anywhere else.

campaigning against US bases

Mod - The problem is with your definition - not mine. You are the one that associates resistance with violence, not me. I’ve never supported any form of violence. And anyway my point was that they have a right to resist occupation - not that I support it, or think its positive, but that they have a right to do that.

As for what positive things they do, just look at what RAWA, who you have long supported (how exactly I wonder?), do (see link below). It includes helping victims of violence (caused by both the Taliban and the US), health care, education and so on. So while the US, which you also support (slight contradiction isn’t it?) bombs weddings, it is groups like this that clean up the mess left behind.

http://www.rawa.org/s.html

I’m not sure a country like Afghanistan can be ruled from the centre under a Western democratic model. A patchwork of tribal fiefdoms would probably carry more legitimacy.

’stop the war’ becomes ‘give war a chance’, universal human rights becomes Afghanis aren’t capable enough to enjoy democratic life because they aren’t western and the stopper peddling this bilge doesn’t even blink. souled out indeed.

You are the one that associates resistance with violence, not me.

Try looking up resistance in a dictionary.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/resistance

Bob - campaigning works in democratic countries where the population has some modicum of influence over the government. You can’t “campaign” against a foreign army that occupies your country. Writing to your MP/tribal leader isn’t going to be particularly effective. Of course, we could campaign against it, since we, the occupiers, are in democracies - in theory anyway.

Bob - campaigning works in democratic countries where the population has some modicum of influence over the government. You can’t “campaign” against a foreign army that occupies your country.

Okay.

So you are saying that violence is the only option.

And you support their right to commit acts of violence.

I think we understand you now.

I never said that Mark - in fact I explicitly rejected violence. I’m for non-violent resistance. Stop wasting my time.

TheIrie,

I give up, it is hopeless trying to discuss these matters with you, you shift around, duck and dive like a politico

If you’ve haven’t seen it yet, get hold of a DVD of the film Osama.

If Iraqis and Afghanis, according to you, “can’t “campaign” against a foreign army that occupies your country”, what kind of resistance do you propose they are entitled to?

I saw Osama in the ICA years ago. Truely a shocking film. I just don’t think the US government gives a damn about girls like Osama, and if they did perhaps they wouldn’t go round bombing weddings and parties. The only hope for those girls like Osama is through organisations like RAWA, and the Afghani people.

’stop the war’ becomes ‘give war a chance’, universal human rights becomes Afghanis aren’t capable enough to enjoy democratic life because they aren’t western and the stopper peddling this bilge doesn’t even blink. souled out indeed.

Lets be realistic for a moment. Afghanistan is not Germany at the end of WWII. Its a predominately tribal feudal society. You can’t expect to just parachute a political structure that was devloped in a completely different context and expect it to work.

Plus there isn’t the political will, the manpower, nor the money to impose a military solution on those you describe as the Taliban.

Like it or not the end game is pretty clear. There will be negotiations with elements within the Taliban who will be given posts in the government and the south of the country will fall under their control. The rest of the country will be the province of a series of repressive warlords who have little respect for human rights or the rule. The people may be called together every few years to put a cross on a ballet paper but its isn’t a real functioning democracy in any substantial sense and there is no chance of it being so in our or our children’s lifetime. The best we can hope for is that it enters a period of stability.

You may not like it but its what is going to happen so you might as well save the chickenhawkish bluster.

Of course, Afghans and Iraqis can campaign against the presence of foreign troops in their countries. In Iraq Moqtada al-Sadr’s party campaigns against in the Iraqi parliament against the presence of US troops. That’s fine. What is not fine is violent opposition to the policies of a democratically elected government. As for non-violent resistance who knows what that is supposed to mean.

I saw Osama in the ICA years ago. Truely a shocking film. I just don’t think the US government gives a damn about girls like Osama, and if they did perhaps they wouldn’t go round bombing weddings and parties. The only hope for those girls like Osama is through organisations like RAWA, and the Afghani people.

TheIrie, do you at least understand that without the US invasion, the film could never have been made there in the first place?

‘The only hope for those girls like Osama is through organisations like RAWA, and the Afghani people.’

And how exactly is RAWA going to puruse its aims if the Taliban return to power?

Souled out, you are present in the comments box. By your reasoning, you are now a bigot, fanatic or nutcases. Ah-ha! A flaw in your argument!

You are seriously trying to conflate the killing of civilians with resistance to foreign occupation and armies invading your land and killing civilians

AnotherHypocrite

Are you suggesting that bog-standard Indian commuters are foreign occupiers, or Jews targeted individually as Jews? Or maybe that Mumbaikars are in occupation of their own city?

What the fuck are you talking about you racist piece of human effluent?

Ethipioans are Christians, dolt

Ethipioans is spelt Ethiopians, you hypocrite.

Hey souled out that last post does not sound very “progressive liberal” to me? TheIrie which islamic country do you think Afghans should model themselves on, you don’t believe the Taliban resistance fighters and the other jihadi resistance fighters should succeed and return Afghanistan to 7th century do you? surely not? so again in case you missed it which islamic country, because that is what it is going to be no matter how the war turns out ,which one should they strive to emulate?

Its called Realism. Looking at the way the world is and is likely to be. It doesn’t involve hare brained schemes to turbocharge complex feudal societies into modernity via the barrel of a gun. Societies and social mores, especially in somewhere like Afghanistan change very slowly and it is folly to imagine we can hugely speed up the process.

“Presumably as punishment for having elections, for having a reserved seat for Jews (and three for Christians, being two for Armenians and one for an Assyrian) in her Parliament, for having more women than men at university, and for having the most acclaimed contemporary cinema in the world.”

Iran ought to be a regional powerhouse for industry, science and engineering. Iranians are bright, and talented, and they have an admirable work ethic. They should be well off.

Instead, they have inflation, petrol shortages (no-one since the revolution has ever built sufficient refining capacity), government workers going unpaid, sometimes for months, strikers and protesters being violently attacked by the basij militia, trade unionists languishing in prison, public hangings of juveniles, public stonings of wimminfolk, and a terrible drug problem.

Hasn’t it occurred to you that every repressive, totalitarian state sprouts some kind of artistic flowering, because it is the only way their people can express themselves, be subversive, and reach out to the world around them?

Realism is it really, well i never. So we and i mean the west, should not have gone after the lunatics, sorry religious lunatics, that were running most of Afghanistan, we should have just left them alone because they would have eventually began to think rationally, maybe in a 1000 years they may have given women the vote or they could just as well get hold of some nukes and say Allah told them to drop their nukes on some westerners but you would probably say it is the westerners fault for inventing nukes. I am curious do you think we should have stopped the nazis before they invaded poland?

Sorry that last question was rhetorical because i know the answer,its always the same answer, especially when its from “Realists” Goodbye HARRYS thanks for the memories, i sure none of you will miss a Troll like me but hey man isn’t free speech wonderful, don’t at least some of you think its worth fighting for and i mean fighting just like are grandparents did to defeat the nazis, not just silly student protests and links to wiki as if you were referencing a paper on the life cycle of a butterfly. Hope springs eternal.

You seem to be conflating a series of only tenuous related issues. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t have pursued those who carried out 9/11. However I think that adopting a primarily military strategy you have scored a massive own goal and increased the threat from Islamic radicalism. There’s precious little subtlety or intelligence in dealing with the threat.

And don’t bring in the Nazis. Its a ridiculous comparison.

Godwin’s Law gets broken quite frequently around here, doesn’t it?

Sensible proposition: “Bombing for democracy won’t necessarily work, democracies are difficult to create, we can’t rely on military means producing the ends we want”

Angry response: “But wot about the Nazis, World War 2 was the best war ever, that example can applied in any context, if you disagree you are basically a Nazi-appeasing NAZI!”

Democracy has expanded in various ways. Military action was not responsible for the spread of democracy to Spain, Portugal, Greece, Eastern Europe or South Africa. On the other hand it was crucial in the spread of democracy to Germany, Italy and Japan, and it appears to have played a crucial role in the spread of democracy to Iraq.

Earlier in the day (UK time) John P. @2:09 once again highlights V.S. Naipaul’s oft voiced belief in the parasitic nature of Islamic culture–a culture shaped almost entirely by Religion. True enough, fate in terms of geography and history have made the middle-eastern peoples the great traders and rag-merchants par excellence in history, but only by trading off the prosperity generated in the original from other cultures. And such success as this merchant trader culture has produced is highly tribal and familial–witnessed by the fact of an entire nation named after
a single family–and not spread among the populace as a whole,
most of whom exist in abject poverty with little chance of participating in a meaningful way in the determination of the course of their existence–save by a “devil take the hind-most” philosophy of short-term immediacy. Somaliasm (a new definition of a squalid form of existence encompassing the total sphere of the given culture) is indeed the future of an Islam denied the fruits of Western Civilization.

And to the extent that middle-eastern countries succeed somewhat in avoiding this fate (Dubai comes to mind) it is only by appropriating the superficial trappings of the fruits of Western dynamism via the oil spigot. The jury is still out on whether this western transplant will take absent continued high levels of oil flow money. Pabluski is right–there are many blessings to be counted by the modern-day Islamic world–most of them not of their own making.

Monty,

“You seem to be saying that once relieved of the obligation to prosecute a jihad, they would all go searching for any other old pretext for going to war anyway.”

Most Muslims have been relieved of the obligation to prosecute a jihad. Yet the conditions in those countries still exist. Whats the problem with Egypt, Syria, Jordan. There is no accountability in these countries. Take away Somalia’s Islam and it will be the DRC. You can butcher over diamonds too you know.

Whats ironic is that Al Qaida seems more competent, disciplined and incorruptible than these governments in the Muslim world. In AQ there is structure, accountability, discipline, goal, and purpose. How is a Islamic outfit able to manage what many of the leaders in Muslims countries cant?

VX:
“And to the extent that middle-eastern countries succeed somewhat in avoiding this fate (Dubai comes to mind) it is only by appropriating the superficial trappings of the fruits of Western dynamism via the oil spigot. The jury is still out on whether this western transplant will take absent continued high levels of oil flow money. ”

I suspect the balloon will go up in Dubai, when the oil industry starts winding down. The local population do not like being so outnumbered by foreigners, they tolerate it so long as the expats keep the oil money flowing. But the only other resource Dubai has to sell is it’s beachfront tourist property, and corresponding western lifestyle. The islamists will move in. They will pick up local support, and they will start attacking westerners. And if the Sheikh comes under political pressure to restrict the number of visitor visas, and curtail the freedoms of visitors, the owners of those beachfront villas will start offloading their properties.

You can spend a lifetime working in Dubai, but once you retire, they sling you out.

virgil xenophon,

“…and such success as this merchant trader culture has produced is highly tribal and familial–witnessed by the fact of an entire nation named after
a single family–and not spread among the populace as a whole,
most of whom exist in abject poverty with little chance of participating in a meaningful way…”

Except the modern Saudi Arabia and the modern Gulf states are the youngest countries of the Muslim world if not the whole world. I wouldnt characterize most of the natives in the KSA as being in abject poverty. If that is the new definition of abject poverty than the world has come a long way.

“Somaliasm (a new definition of a squalid form of existence encompassing the total sphere of the given culture) is indeed the future of an Islam denied the fruits of Western Civilization.”

The differences between Somalia and the KSA couldnt be more different. Somalia’s problem is that there are too many tribes and familials running or trying to run the show while in the KSA and the Gulf are ruled by one or two families counting thousands as its members.

Saudi’s Arabia of today doesnt resemble anything in its history and Somalia has probably always been tribal and factious. By the looks of it, Somalia needs a bit of Saudia Arabia, atleast to stabilize and neutralize the competing parties.

“Somaliasm (a new definition of a squalid form of existence encompassing the total sphere of the given culture) is indeed the future of an Islam denied the fruits of Western Civilization.”

Certainly. Of those fruits was the creation of a more or less stable monarchy in the KSA. What Somalia needs is for the US/UK to install a Somali version of Al Saud to nuetralize the tribes and to bring stability just like they did for the KSA. Then Somalia can exploit, with the help of the US/UK whatever resources they have to bring greater stability, healthcare and literacy. The KSA has benefited from the fruits of Western influence. Somalia can too. Who will be its Al Saud?

“V.S. Naipaul’s oft voiced belief in the parasitic nature of Islamic culture–a culture shaped almost entirely by Religion.”

Are Islamic soceties characterized by one culture? Isnt parasitism a good thing for the Muslim world? V.S. Naipaul described parts of the Islamic world as going backwards in search of an Islamic utopia that probably never existed. Isnt that evidence of a rejection of foriegn cultures and not an embrace of them? Should Islamic cultures (yet to be defined) model themselves after the far east instead instead of the West?

The cause of delivering democracy and gender equality to Afghanistan is infinitely worthy but beyond the capablility of British troops given its border with Pakistan, which has a population of 170 milllion, madrassas that create Taliban by the day, and a greater commitment against democracy and gender equality than whatever we might have for it.

I really can’t see how our few thousand troops can win this, which is a horrible, depressing conclusion.

‘The cause of delivering democracy and gender equality to Afghanistan is infinitely worthy but beyond the capablility of British troops …’

Lucky some other countries have troops there, then. Can’t remember which ones.

BV:

“What Somalia needs is for the US/UK to install a Somali version of Al Saud ”

Just a minute there. How is this the responsibility of US, UK, or NATO?

If Somalia needs sorting out, it is surely the job of the OIC to go in and do it. Is it not their islamic duty to attend to the needs of their fellow muslims in extremis? Why should the west even get involved?

I really can’t see how our few thousand troops can win this,

Nor can I. I can see, however, how they can help stop the Taleban winning.

Monty,

The West doesnt have an obligation but if I remember correctly the West, unlike other hemispheres or areas of the world, isnt run by theocrats. As such they dont see things along religious lines but see human (emphasis on human) catasotophes that should be addressed by the world community- Neocons. Ask Dick Cheney for details.

BV:

“As such they dont see things along religious lines but see human (emphasis on human) catasotophes”

Are you telling us that the islamic nations are indifferent to human catastrophe and suffering?

Clinton sent the US Marines into Somalia, to deal with a warlord. A shot at deliverance.

And we all know how well that worked out don’t we.

You can’t expect to have it both ways any more. Ultimately, the panhandler gets rumbled.

Indonesia has a massive standing army. Send them into Somalia. Empty your own pockets if you want, but stay out of mine.

The US don’t deliberately set out to bomb wedding parties you know. Ambulances run people over in Britain. Sometimes people are even killed. Think that we should campaign to get rid of ambulances? Perhaps behead a few paramedics…

It’s not weird if the MB condemn the Mumbai attacks and think they’re the work of the Mossad - they don’t like the Mossad. What’s weird is when people claim that “9/11 was an inside job” while at the same time maintaining that the USA had it coming.

Monty,

“Are you telling us that the islamic nations are indifferent to human catastrophe and suffering?”

Maybe the leaders in these nations are indifferent but their disnefranchised Islamic populations wants nothing more than to spend what little resources they have to rescue Somalia from its hell. In the meantime they visit their Mosques every friday and pray for peace in Somalia.

All of this stuff of poor ol Yaqoob pales in comparison with this *spectacular treachery and pro-Islamicist renegacy* of former leftist Tariq Ali:

http://iaoj.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/tariq-ali-praises-taliban-and-hezbollah/

What’s weird is when people claim that “9/11 was an inside job” while at the same time maintaining that the USA had it coming.

Brilliant Gotcha, King. I shall use it!

Tariq Ali has never been a true leftist. He has always been a mentally arrested 14-year old, spouting silly slogans without the slightest understanding of the world or how ridiculous and ignorant he is.

Maven @ 28 November 2008, 10:19 pm

“no problem about internment camps if it stops terrorism in the UK or terrorist going abroad. Why would anyone object?”

We had internment in part of the UK (I think is was initiated by the devolved Northern Ireland government, rather than the UK government) from the late 1960s and very effective it was at recruiting angry youth to the Provisional IRA.

If you recall, the troubles in Northern Ireland began after peaceful Civil Rights marches were attacked by hostile crowds. The NI Civil Rights movement, largely but not entirely Catholic, modelled itself on the Black American Civil Rights movement, substantially Baptist.

“on extreme Left websites it is suggested Salma Yaqoob will have a bright political future in mainstream politics. Will it be Labour? Will it be the Liberal Democrats?”

Given the merger of Brum’s own “Justice for Kashmir Party” with the LibDems it wouldn’t surprise me to see Ms Yaqoob there within 30 months of the next General Election.

LibDems are wide open to infiltration, since they don’t require members to give genuine addresses. In 2005 they chopped at least one Parliamentary Candidate between opening and closing of nominations for appealing for support through the MPAC website. Or that’s what they said the reason was…….. That person is still trying to get selected elsewhere.

Labour people have notes on prominent “dis-respect” types. The days when defectors are welcomed, in the interests of smashing up “dis-Respect” are rapidly running out.

BV:

“Maybe the leaders in these nations are indifferent but their disnefranchised Islamic populations wants nothing more than to spend what little resources they have to rescue Somalia from its hell. ”

What a pathetic excuse.
If the 1 billion muslims in the 67 nations of the OIC wants nothing more than to rescue Somalia, they will rescue Somalia.

The truth is they just don’t care. It’s all another charade.

The last thing the west should do is intervene.

We had internment in part of the UK (I think is was initiated by the devolved Northern Ireland government, rather than the UK government) from the late 1960s and very effective it was at recruiting angry youth to the Provisional IRA.

Ah but MY internment camps would be more like a Holiday Camp (see much earlier). 5 star accommodation, food, squash courts, tennis courts, re-programming classes etc.

Why does an internment camp have to be draconian, dull and fearful?

People will be fighting to get in - not out. Think outside the square. Language can be so limiting.

The truth is they just don’t care. It’s all another charade.

The last thing the west should do is intervene.

They complained about our liberation of Iraq but stood by while Saddam slaughtered his own people. The Arab/Muslim World could have done something.

What they need is a Team Arabia.!

All parody material gratefully accepted.