Harry’s Place

Good point.

Ed Hussein fans can see him interviewed about this on C4 news yesterday, 1min 30secs into this segment…

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1529573111?bclid=3347113001&bctid=3467106001

Hardly inspiring is it?

Their Muslim brothers have been preaching genocidal, race-based hatred for decades, and finelly the Muslims of India are moved to ——- not allow a burial.

I rather think this proves the point that many Mulsims are sympathetic to the terrorists’ cause.

If Christians did this sort of thing, you wouldn’t be able to move for demonstrations against it.

Jews never tire of attacking themselves over Israel.

Muslims cancel a burial.

Says it all really.

This is a remarkable and symbolic gesture by Indian Muslims.

It certainly is - but nothing will ever be enough for some hate-filled bigots.

“Even the longest journey begins with a single step.”

Paraphrasing Mao? Look what he did to his own people in the cultural revolution.

A worthy point, well made. Although, I had to look up the word ‘revanchist’, it seems to capture lexically the wave of revulsion and hatred sweeping towards all Muslims…which would be quite wrong - Muslims after all are not a homogenous community.

I inadvertently made the mistake recently of smearing Islam with the word misogynistic: thankfully, somebody took me to task and explained, quite rightly, that although women are not treated equally in legal terms, as Muslims before God they are treated ontologically the same. This is an important distinction.

Can all Muslims be blamed for the inhumunity of a few? No. But the unequivocal scriptures which foment such acts can.

The Quilliams and their ilk are surely a step in the right direction, but they are after all only a bunch of policy wonks. What’s more, they have been castigated in some areas of the Muslim community for their pronouncements on Islamic terror. They are not seen as ‘authentic’.

Whilst community leaders who make decisions like Ibrahim Tai above help to send a certain message to the radical Islamists, what we really need is more vocal clerics prepared to re-examine the scriptures and disavow those texts underpinning jihadist ideology and other primitivism. Alas, I don’t see any evidence of this in the UK, at least not involving anyone of great significance as an opinion former, nor worldwide.

Sayyed Imam, the imprisoned jihadist and former spiritual leader of Egyptian Jihad, whose second rebuttal to Ayman az-Zawahiri and al-Qa’idah’s formulation of jihad is being serialised at the moment in an Egyptian daily, offers some hope in his new work that impressionable minds can be co-opted through the teachings of an Islamic authentic voice. However, there is still far too much grey matter between governments and policy one hand and the public, who after all suffer the most from radical Islam, at the coalface. What of the government’s much vaunted committee of Islamic advisors? Have they actually been convened yet?

The article says to me “Ordinary Muslims are sorry about Islamic Terrorism”. Just like after 7/7 when Blair said that the terrorists were following a perversion of Islam so Indian Muslims say that the Islamic Terrorists aren’t following Islam.

Well, the Islaist Terrorists/Radicals/Jihadis say that ordinary Muslims aren’t following true Islam.

It doesn’t matter to me a jot whether ‘ordinary Muslims’ tell us they are sorry or that they distance themselves from Terrorism. I know that. We know that. Those who call for Muslims to march for peace are really only asking Muslims to grovel so that the rest of us can feel better.

I/We don’t need it.

What we need is simple action. Go to the police and security services and tell us where the radicals are. The ones who go around disparaging the Kuffar and The Jew. The one’s who watch beheading and jihadi videos and who have posters of Osam Bin Laden in the bedroom.

Cast them out of the community. Dump them naked on the street outside Scotland Yard. Have a Star Chamber if you wish. Stop supporting them by telling us we are treating Muslims like Nazis treated Jews.

I don’t need to know the process and I don’t need to watch while you bleed (a line by Don McLean).

Take it as a given that we know that ordinary Muslims aren’t the Terrorists.

Bear in mind one thing., We aren’t changing Foreign Policy for you and we aren’t going to stop supporting Israel. We won’t stop calling Hamas and Hezbollah Terrorists. If you believe what you say about renouncing terror then you will publicly reject the terrorism of Hamas. Like the Jewish, Sikh & Hindu minority communities go and support yourselves. Raise money for supporting ordinary Muslims. Create a Halal School Meals service. Do what Jews did if you want to say that the Muslims are the new Jews.

Know what I think?

You’ll never do it. You can’t do it and I think you don’t really want to do it. You have to show first otherwise we will thinks its a nother one of those Taqiyya sessions where you peretnd to care, pretend to want to get close to the Government - and then we get the wacky revelation of teh Islamist agenda embedded. Just like the radicals telling the Govt that to show willing they had to ditch Holocaust Memorial.

But Good Luck because the alternative is violence and it won’t be one way. We will all respond positively for genuine willing that is self-motivated and self-generated.

Even the longest journey begins with a single step.

Perfect choice of a quote. It’s the very first step in the right direction.

>Muslims are sorry about Islamic Terrorism”.

Really?

Is this true?

You could have fooled me.

They aren’t exactly marching in the streets about it.

I don’t see any upset Muslims, they always seem to be complaining being angry.

I wonder if this is true..

Hmmmm

Shiraz Maher, despite what you may think about my comments I am with you and all ordinary Muslims who want to solve this crisis of Islamic Terroism.

My point in precis is that we know ordinary Muslims don’t support terrorism. Instead of small gestures and statement like “We reject your terror” the ONLY thing that works is by casting them out of the core and fringe of the community.

A few years ago MCB sent a letter to all Mosques (at the behest of Mike O’Brien) that were weasel words about telling Imams to cast out any radicals to the police. Weasel words because the SAME letter also noted to the Imams that some Muslims had been wrongly arrested by the police and that arrests had caused community unrest. ie do so with caution and don’t out any radicals.

What happened? Not a single radical was ever noted by any Imama and reported to the police. And yet we have all seen Undercover Mosque.

Forgive me but that is why I don’t think that ordinary Muslims can or will cure the problem.

I regrettable think, pessimistically, that it will come to physical acts between the Govt and the radicals in the community. I;’d like to be wrong.

You have to show first otherwise we will thinks its a nother one of those Taqiyya sessions where you peretnd to care, pretend to want to get close to the Government - and then we get the wacky revelation of teh Islamist agenda embedded…

I wish people would stop misusing the word “Taqiyya”. Yes Muslim cultures seem to be rather dishonest and for lots of good reasons, but I believe the word “Taqiyya” more or less refers to a dispensation so Shiites can pretend to be Sunnis when they’re under Sunni oppression so that they won’t get their heads lopped off.

It’s rude to misunderstand other people’s words and then throw them in their faces. English has lots of descriptive words, pick one or two from your own damn language.

They aren’t exactly marching in the streets about it.

I wonder if this is true..

tt, as I stated I don’t think we need it. Instead just call Hamas a terrorist organisation and turn out some bound and gagged Islamists planning terrorism (along with evidence taped to them) to the local police station. Then I’ll believe it.

wish people would stop misusing the word “Taqiyya”. Yes Muslim cultures seem to be rather dishonest and for lots of good reasons, but I believe the word “Taqiyya” more or less refers to a dispensation so Shiites can pretend to be Sunnis when they’re under Sunni oppression so that they won’t get their heads lopped off.

It’s rude to misunderstand other people’s words and then throw them in their faces. English has lots of descriptive words, pick one or two from your own damn language.

Bollocks! Words have absolute meanings and colloquial and contemporary meanings.

If you want I’ll change it to “talking bollocks and lies”. Will you now berate me that there were no testes involved in the discussions?

DOH!!!

They aren’t exactly marching in the streets about it.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/375736.html

Obsessive hatred by hook or by crook; an immediate pinning down of the weak points in Shiraz Maher’s article, ignoring the fact that she writes about Muslims who are both victims and opponents of the terrorism. She can say what she likes, for some HP correspondents she ‘onely proves the point that that many Muslims are sympathetic to the terrorist cause.” How hide- bound and ideolgoical can you get? Few mails so far, maybe the article will be largely ignored. I hope not.

Shiraz Maher, I appreciate your article very much

It certainly is - but nothing will ever be enough for some hate-filled bigots.

Sad isn’t it? There’s so much bad faith about.

They aren’t exactly marching in the streets about it.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/375736.html

“Troops Out”

“Terrorism has no religion”

“Stop the Bombing”

Osama Saeed as a speaker. “The Return of The Caliphate” http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/01/religion.world

Yeah sure. This was a march of ‘ordinary Muslim’ who had no axe to grind except to blame Terrorism on Iraq/Iran liberations and a speaker who desires the Caliphate.

Hasn’t Saeed been well Fisked by HP elsewhere?

This is a march that means bollocks to do with ordinary Muslims rejecting terrorism. Do you think they spoke about how Hamas and Hezbollah were terrorists?

It’s all down to muslims, no one else. They do not have to express anger or disapproval by killing or even threatening to kill. They do not have to issue fatwas about things they disagree with. They certainly do not have to claim moral superiority given the nature of public statements by their leaders and actions of their adherents, and they should avoid calling for the deaths of people – and even the death of the west – to show they have opinions.

As far as I am can tell we live in a society that equally allows people to be part of a religion, or if they so choose not have any at all. Most of us don’t care what belief system operates in the mind of a person (none of it provable anyway) but we do deserve the right to say God may or may not exist. Having a set of inflexible beliefs doesn’t make a very good argument for killing others, whatever a certain ancient text may claim.

As I say it is all down to muslims. No one else. Expressing sorrow sounds good but forgive me if it seems to be damage limitation – merely another round of acceptable words to soothe justifiable anger in some places. When the language of division and hatred has so often been used openly by muslims, I am afraid many people still think followers of Islam have a long way to go before we can all safely agree they are steps on the right road.

They get upset when Muslims suffer collateral damage during an attack on non-Muslims.

she writes about Muslims who are both victims and opponents of the terrorism. She can say what she likes

She is a bearded lady.

PS: SP: FO.

“Can all Muslims be blamed for the inhumunity of a few? No. But the unequivocal scriptures which foment such acts can.

The Quilliams and their ilk are surely a step in the right direction, but they are after all only a bunch of policy wonks. What’s more, they have been castigated in some areas of the Muslim community for their pronouncements on Islamic terror. They are not seen as ‘authentic’.

….what we really need is more vocal clerics prepared to re-examine the scriptures and disavow those texts underpinning jihadist ideology and other primitivism. Alas, I don’t see any evidence of this in the UK, at least not involving anyone of great significance as an opinion former, nor worldwide.”
——
I agree with that. Whatever strategy the Quilliams put forward, it must include doctrinal reform. But I do not understand how they propose to de-fang the scripture. It will always be accessible, there will always be young muslims in the west who read it literally and act upon it.

I applaud their efforts, and support their aims, and I reckon the government ought to change course and back people like Ed Hussain, and dump the MCB. Also they should ban foreign funding and foreign imams, so Ed Hussain can have a fighting chance.

But I still don’t see how it is going to innoculate our islamic population against the hatred and violence demanded by the quran.

Thanks for posting this.

Maven writes:

‘What we need is simple action. Go to the police and security services and tell us where the radicals are.”

This is happening in India as I write these words. It is happening in Afghanistan and it is happening in Iraq. I agree with you that it should happen more in the UK and Europe so please do not misread me. However, we should trecognize that the best intell on these radical groups is coming from Muslims who take great risks to infiltrate these organizations.

They said that they could not believe that the assailants, who they said had “killed innocent civilians unprovoked”, were true followers of Islam”

This is a remarkable and symbolic gesture by Indian Muslims.

It’s remarkable, but I don’t see it as positive. It resonates with the “No true Scotsman fallacy” and the many, many times Muslims have ignored or disregarded terrorism committed by Muslims in the name of Islam as not in any way connected to the current state of Islam in the world because the perpetrators were not “true” Muslims. This just symbolizes the status quo among the majority of Muslims: denial.

“Can all Muslims be blamed for the inhumunity of a few? No. But the unequivocal scriptures which foment such acts can

Do you think Ozzy Osbourne records can be blamed as well?

Joshua,

I wish people would stop misusing the word “Taqiyya”. Yes Muslim cultures seem to be rather dishonest and for lots of good reasons, but I believe the word “Taqiyya” more or less refers to a dispensation so Shiites can pretend to be Sunnis when they’re under Sunni oppression so that they won’t get their heads lopped off.

It’s rude to misunderstand other people’s words and then throw them in their faces. English has lots of descriptive words, pick one or two from your own damn language.

I understand exactly what you mean - this word is overused and most Muslim public figures, at least in the UK, could hardly be accused of dissimulation. If they do appear to obfuscate the truth, isn’t it just the same process of prevarication used so successfully by politicians in particular?

We discussed, off topic, the word taqiyyah linguistically and doctrinally elsewhere: suffice to say it is supported by both sunni and shi’a jurisprudence and gets significant attention in a mutitude of Qur’an commentaries.

“Even the longest journey begins with a single step.”

Paraphrasing Mao? Look what he did to his own people in the cultural revolution.

While that parable is of Chinese origin, it long predates Mao.

For example. Read these of these reactions to the Baruch Goldstein massacre:

The liberal Jew:

In Crown Heights, Joseph Sero, a Hasidic guidance counselor, stood in the sunshine of Eastern Parkway and speculated on a peace strategy. “Liberal people don’t kill each other; religious fanatics do,” he said. “This act reinforces the opinion that the liberal Arab and the liberal Jew have to form a coalition and destroy the right-wing factions in their respective religions.”

The liberal Muslim:

This view coincided somewhat [not at all really!!] with that of Mohammed Abdullah, speaking at the Court Newstand near Atlantic Avenue. “The people who made the World Trade Center bomb, they are not really Muslim,” he said. “Muslims don’t blow up innocent people. The same with the doctor. He was either crazy or he was not a real Jew because real Jews also do not kill innocent people.”

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05E1DA143AF932A35750C0A962958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Timothy Winter helped to institute a great initiative here in the UK: ’scriptural reasoning’ (you can find details and some of the documents here - http://www.scripturalreasoning.org.uk/index.html). Whilst there’s no prescription in reasoning methodology for consensual abrogation of texts or even their re-examination, it does seem to provide an opportunity for those of different faiths to gain a deeper understanding of each others’ sacred literature. Although not much is happening at the moment, the mere fact that Jews, Christians and Muslims have been able to compare, contrast and examine each others’ texts in the spirit of dialogue can only be a good thing.

“What we need is simple action. Go to the police and security services and tell us where the radicals are. The ones who go around disparaging the Kuffar and The Jew. The one’s who watch beheading and jihadi videos and who have posters of Osam Bin Laden in the bedroom.”

“Cast them out of the community. Dump them naked on the street outside Scotland Yard. Have a Star Chamber if you wish. Stop supporting them by telling us we are treating Muslims like Nazis treated Jews.” Maven

The last sentence is not mirrored anywhere in Shiraz Maher’s article. Your demand for action is more easily said than done. Try to imagine it being actually done, the repercussions on whoever tries to do it, the brawls that would ensue. I’m all for reporting jihadists to the police as anonymously as possible. The whole problem would have to be handled with care. The best bet would be more active British intelligence, which seems to have slowed down, while Jihadists hob-nob with with liberal and charity associations, as HP reports . Dumping people naked in the street smacks of mob lynching. This brings you a bit closer to resembling your enemies and is not done in a half-way civilised society. People would be brought fully clothed by the police for questioning and trial.

Shizar does report severe dealings with fundamentalists in India, where the moderate Muslims apparently have more clout.

What a lot of wishful thinking by the HP appeasers. From the cited article:

“They are not Muslims as they have not followed our religion which teaches us to live in peace. If the government does not respect our demands we will take up extreme steps. We do not want the bodies of people who have committed an act of terrorism to be buried in our cemeteries.”

Hmm, “extreme steps”. I wonder what they have in mind?

Naseem Ahmed, a Muslim worker in the city, said the council was wrong. “They are Muslims and they can be buried even if they have done something wrong. Our religion does not say that those who have done evil can’t be buried in a cemetery,” he said.

So what we have here is an empty gesture of reconciliation by some worried Muslim politicians and the usual contemptuous defiance from the ordinary jihadi in the street.

If the author of this article agrees that these terrorists were not true Muslims (and how noble if he does) can he please enlighten me as to who is a true Muslim?

Are the Taliban true Muslims?

Hezbollah?

al Qaeda?

Michael Jackson?

I’ll be waiting for your answers. Thanks!

If Christians did this sort of thing, you wouldn’t be able to move for demonstrations against it.

I remember the massacres at Sabra and Chatila which were committed by Christians. I also remember that those Christians who commented denied that anyone who murders people could be a Christian. Then they blamed Israel.

Then there were the wars in the former Yugoslavia, the murders by Christians of Bosnjak, Croat, Kosovar and Serb. The genocide in Rwanda of Christian against Christian. All met with the same facile denunciations as about Sabra and Chatila. Christian demonstrations against the brutal behaviour of Christians? We’re still waiting.

Of course I want to see decisive action by Muslims against terrorism, and I want the Quilliam Foundation to succeed, but making silly comparisons with other religions whose record is none too bright in this regard adds nothing to the wisdom of nations.

“I also remember that those Christians who commented denied that anyone who murders people could be a Christian.”

Exactly. A real first step for Muslims would be simply admitting that these terrorists were Muslims. You can’t get much more basic than that.

“Ibrahim Tai, the president of the Indian Muslim Council, which looks after the social and religious affairs of the Muslim community in India, said that they, as Mossad agents, would be buried in a Jewish cemetery.”

“In the wave of revanchist rage that follows almost every terrorist attack (one needs only look at some of the comments left on Harry’s Place) it is easy to forget that ordinary Muslims also suffer at the hands of Islamist extremists”

Give us a break apologist. Muslims have far more to fear from the types of Islamophobes who pollute HP who use such attacks to push collective guilt, demonise and attack (sometimes physically) Muslims.
In India it wasnt “Islamists” who exterminated 2000 Muslims in Gujurat after the Godhra attack -it was Hindu fascists.

You are essentially saying its wrong for Muslims to be killed by other Muslims because Islamists are bad; but it isnt wrong for non-Muslims to kill Muslims after such attacks.

You dont speak for Muslims. Which is why you are on HP.

Joshua Scholar

“I wish people would stop misusing the word “Taqiyya”. Yes Muslim cultures seem to be rather dishonest and for lots of good reasons, ”

Likewise Jewish cultures

tt
“Jews never tire of attacking themselves over Israel.”

LOL
classic

Shmuel

“It’s remarkable, but I don’t see it as positive. It resonates with the “No true Scotsman fallacy” and the many, many times Muslims have ignored or disregarded terrorism committed by Muslims in the name of Islam as not in any way connected to the current state of Islam in the world because the perpetrators were not “true” Muslims. This just symbolizes the status quo among the majority of Muslims: denial.”

Islamophobes demand all Muslims collective condemn terrorists (though they never demand this of any other group)

When Muslims condemn terrorists and say this is forbidden by Islam that these people are not true Muslims and even when they refuse to bury the perpetrators Islamophobes demand that Muslims actually
say that they are true Muslims and follow the Quran

In other words Islamophobes demand Muslims condemn their own religion even for things it doesnt say

I look forward to your condemnation of killing and stealing from gentiles found in Judaism.

Israelis havent disregarded terrorism committed by Jews- they elected them , the Begins and Shamirs , as their leaders

Shmuel

“Exactly. A real first step for Muslims would be simply admitting that these terrorists were Muslims. You can’t get much more basic than that.”

So when are you going to admit that Genrikh Yagoda and other butchers of the Russian revolution were Jewish?

I admire the sentiment; but they’ve got a bit of a sales job to do to the Ummah to de-fang Islam.

I’m more than a little sceptical if it’s possible to de-couple Islam from Koranic literalism, given the Koranic standard at the core of the pernicious meme that is Islam, that all too many Muslims, since the time of Mohammed in the sixth century, to this day, have re-proofed their World view against….all too often, in such numbers, and so bloodily.

With this backdrop, given that the Koran is basically a Xenophobic war manual, that the ‘prophet’ Mohammed …a murdering, thieving, raping, misogynistic, bigoted beyond belief, primitive megolomaniacal pervert - is celebrated, with all that baggage by Muslims, as THE, beyond reproach ‘perfect man’ …I think it’s going to be a tad uphill to do this…..rather tougher than selling Garry Glitter as a scoutmaster.

In essence, and perhaps rather aptly… it’s difficult to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear!

Meantime, I’ll call Islam as a political-religious system for what it is….really very nasty….it makes the BNP look like the Rotary club.

Nick South Africa

“In essence, and perhaps rather aptly… it’s difficult to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear!”

Why not youve managed it with the racial supremacist misogynistic evil genocide abomonation of Judaism

What a silly, mischievous little fellow you are:

I remember the massacres at Sabra and Chatila which were committed by Christians. I also remember that those Christians who commented denied that anyone who murders people could be a Christian. Then they blamed Israel.

Then there were the wars in the former Yugoslavia, the murders by Christians of Bosnjak, Croat, Kosovar and Serb. The genocide in Rwanda of Christian against Christian. All met with the same facile denunciations as about Sabra and Chatila. Christian demonstrations against the brutal behaviour of Christians? We’re still waiting.

Funny, because I don’t remember any denial or condemnation of Israel. I also don’t remember the Phalangists screaming ‘Yahweh is great or God is love’ as they massacred the (insert figure here) Palestinians.

Indeed, I don’t remember any of the groups you mention citing scripture or the example of Christ before they committed inhumanities. Who is the rebel non-Yugoslav Christian group who invaded Yugoslavia and murdered all the inhabitants?

Jihadists justify the violence in scripture according to carefully proscribed and elucidated doctrines refined and updated over the last 1500 years. They take part in jihad just as their prophet did, to ape him and follow his example. Christians who take part in violence have rejected have rejected Christ’s message of peace and tolerance. There are no calls to kill or subjugate other relgious adherents in the Gospels.

tt -

Ok, I agree with your general thrust - but let’s not forget that the Catholic Church never ONCE excommunicated any IRA terrorist.

I’ll have a go at Islam as well as the next defender of freedom but let’s not suggest that Islam is uniquely compromised.

Things the public have noticed:

1. The government have banned the term “islamic terrorism”, and substituted the term “community resilience”. As soon as they did that they cemented the suspicion that terrorism is a normal and necessary aspect of the islamic diaspora in the west. Almost as if there would be something moribund about muslims who aren’t terrorists.

2. An interesting analogue: Haringey social services had to be dragged, kicking and screaming into the spotlight to give a (dishonest) account of their activities. They have impressed the hell out of no-one, everyone thinks they are doing the absolute minimum they can get away with by the skin of their teeth, to save their own skins. Well western muslims are seen in the same light. Resentful, sullen, disinterested in the suffering of infidels.

3. Terrorism apart, the public know hostility, and aggression when they see it, and they keep seeing it. They are no longer surprised.

4. When the public walk away from you, it isn’t easy to get them back. Ask Gerald Ratner.

5. They aren’t stupid, gullible, or credulous. You won’t gain their trust and confidence by telling them you hope and pray there won’t be another 7/7 attack. They want you to explain why you are sure it can’t happen again.

I don’t even see much of a recognition that this has to be addressed, let alone a strategy for moving it forward.

I will never-NEVER GOD DAMN IT-admit that Genrikh Yagoda was Jewish.

p.s.

You appear to be a lunatic. Please help yourself.

I’ll have a go at Islam as well as the next defender of freedom but let’s not suggest that Islam is uniquely compromised.

Irish Republican terrorism was a local turf war that since 69 has accounted for perhaps 3,500 dead. Islam is a global religio-political movement predicated on a global turf war, with rather a bigger body count.

Orders of magnitude of a different sized problem.

Not that I’m apologizing for the Catholic church or it’s rather dodgy conduct during the troubles.

It’s remarkable, but I don’t see it as positive. It resonates with the “No true Scotsman fallacy” and the many, many times Muslims have ignored or disregarded terrorism committed by Muslims in the name of Islam as not in any way connected to the current state of Islam in the world because the perpetrators were not “true” Muslims. This just symbolizes the status quo among the majority of Muslims: denial.

What Shmuel said, with knobs on.

I don’t think a Muslim has some sort of obligation to condemn terrorism.

However, if some are indeed so good at distinguishing “true” from “false” Muslims, it would be a great service to everyone if this talent were exercised *before* the above mentioned “false” Muslims killed hundreds of innocent people.

“It resonates with the “No true Scotsman fallacy” ”

It most assuredly does. It’s like Private Fraser announcing “I never liked the look of him, shifty character!”, only to change his tune completely when Private Godfrey was finally revealed as a hero.

There are some things you shouldn’t expect the British to fall for. That is one of them.

Another one is “We buy old junk and sell valuable antiques”.

Nick (South Africa)

Northern Ireland’s death toll probably equates to 150,000 or more for the whole of the UK. Whilst the Islamists have committed terrible crimes, some of the crimes of Republicans and “Loyalists” are particularly repugnant e.g. entering people’s homes to shoot mothers and fathers in front of their children - more like the sort of thing one sees in Sierra Leone and the Congo. Islamists tend to be a bit more purist in their violence I would say.

Of course I understand Islam is a global totalitarian threat. But the Catholic Church cannot be excused its failure to excommunicate a single person for terrorist actions. One could of course level the same charges against the Protestant sects, but many of those hardly deserve to be taken seriously as major institutions.

Shmuel -

I tend to agree.

What we require is not condemnations of external events but absolute loyalty to our democratic institutions.

You live here: you live by these rules.

You don’t want to, then eff off.

Islamism is still not a domestic terror issue in India - the Mumbai attacks originated from a group in Pakistan and involved no Indian citizens. Meanwhile, over 2,000 Indians have been killed in recent years due to Naxalite groups, thousands have died due to the insurgency in Assam, 2,000 Muslims died at the hands of Hindu extremists in the Gujarat carnage. India has 150 million Muslims - one of the largest Muslim populations in the world - but does not have a significant domestic problem with violent Islamic extremism, when compared to the country’s other security threats. Put in context, Muslims are one of the least problemmatic populations in India. So, it’s a shame when people bash them over the head over a group based in a foreign country and comprised of foreigners.

By the way, the Jewish community chooses to live in the Muslim quarter of Mumbai because they feel more comfortable among Muslims than other religious groups. And the caretaker of Kolkata’s two synagogues is a Muslim. There is very little if any animosity towards Jews among Indian Muslims. However, Hindu extremists have long held admiration for Adolf Hitler; the RSS once had an association with the Nazi party.

Auto-sloping. I just made that up. Sounds OK.

Definition:

The art of declaring that all subscribers to your religion or philosophy, throughout the world, are your brothers and sisters, beloved and cherished, and you all march forward in unison. All who declare themselves brothers, are brothers….

… except anyone who just blew up in a kindergarten, or got busted by the police. If there was something wrong with him, it can’t have been my fault. He must have been a ringer. The knowledge that he was a crook/terrorist/kiddy fiddler/ automatically absolves me. Nothing can ever be our fault- this is our religion.

This is positive news. Should have more positive posts about Muslims at HP.

Is that all Benji? Thank God you have nothing more to add.

Benjamin -

I agree.

It’s great news and HP should certainly celebrate all such developments.

“Great Gaon of Vilna” your link isn’t working.

If you could point me at discussions of the word “Taqiyya”, it would be ironic but not particularly surprising if the Aziz Ponnawalla had been dishonest when he explained the meaning of the word to me.

Benji -

Yes yes.

Not for the first time in recent months we are in absolute agreement.

That is all.

Oops I mean to say
“If you could point me at discussions of the word “Taqiyya”, I would be grateful. It would be…”

Just in passing, Hasib Hussein was buried in a Muslim graveyard in Leeds. Shehzad Tanweer was buried in a Muslim cemetery in his ancestral village in Pakistan. I don’t know about the other two.

Bet neither of them was refused burial in a British or Pakistani Muslim graveyard though.

Guess that must mean they were Muslims then.

tt - Hardly inspiring is it?

Actually. I think that it is inspiring.

It begs the question why the UK Muslim community allowed the 7/7 freedom fighters to be buried in the UK. I assume that they were buried in the UK.

Was the ….. person who was burned to death in the attack on the Glasgow airport buried in a UK Muslim cemetery.

Good question to Bungle when I next have a chance.

Shiraz. Thank you for the article.

I just noticed that other posters have referenced what I posted above.

Let us hope that Pakistan will refuse burial rights for ter. sorry, Freedom Fighters, who are killed in their righteous attempts to kill as many ‘innocent’ people as possible.

That would be a step forward in visibly allowing potential terrorists to worry where their remains will be interred.

they are not really Muslim

That’s like saying that “Arsenal players who score own-goals don’t really play for Arsenal”

Shiraz, just tell us. Are Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organisations or are they freedom fighters?

In the West, UK, EU etc they are proscribed terrorist organisations so can you use the right words with a “but” or an excuse?

Can all your fellow Muslims who are against Terrorism by Muslims able to say that? I suspect theanser is No. (I haven’t read all the above posts yet)

I dont know if I agree about refusing burials. There are probably sermons during burials that could be used as an oppurtunity to expose the people (only men attend funerals) of the wrong doings of the dead. When you bury someone, that is your duty to God more than your durty to the dead.

ANOTHERHPHYPOCRITE, please post some more. I realise that its difficult while praying five times a day but you might be taking my crown as joker in residence and I’d like to have a go back.

Of course, I suppose its difficult to condemn yourself.

My impression is that many others are saying “Thanks but No Thanks”. We don’t want gestures of PR that fade after the day they take place.

When MCB and MPAC UK condemn Hamas we’ll believe it.

Black Voter, when you allow a monster to have rites you are sending a signal that will last forever. The sermon will be forgotten soon and won’t be heard by very many people. But the fact that a monster is buried in your sematary will be known by all passers by and others forever.

But you knew that right?

It begs the question why the UK Muslim community allowed the 7/7 freedom fighters to be buried in the UK. I assume that they were buried in the UK.

Was the ….. person who was burned to death in the attack on the Glasgow airport buried in a UK Muslim cemetery.

I don’t think I really object to where they are buried. What I find distasteful is that its a meaningless gesture when the SAME Muslims can’t condemn Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organisations and who object to Qaradawi being banned for simply saying that he says its OK to be a suicide bomber.

Like I said, don’t bother until you can condemn Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorists.

It’s a very good question; what to do with the bodies or the remains of the murderers of the old and the infirm, the lively young people, the happy-go-lucky children and the laughing and crying babies? Clearly their evil killers cannot be buried next to the rest of humanity.
Putin has said that the head of Adolf Hitler is in a Moscow University. Maybe that’s one example of a solution? Scientists could pore over the bodies and look for evidence of the Evil One. Perhaps there’s something inhuman to be found there?
Afterwards the bones of the terrorists could be melted down and used as glue for postage stamps.
I wouldn’t like an evil spirit resident in the same graveyard as my ancestors. ‘Rest in Peace’ should mean exactly what it says.

India has 150 million Muslims - one of the largest Muslim populations in the world - but does not have a significant domestic problem with violent Islamic extremism,

Oh yes it does, where the fuck have you been been!

200 people were killed and more than 327 injured in terrorist bomb attacks in Mumbai in July last year.

Three explosions went off in the Indian capital of New Delhi on October 29, 2005, these killed more than 60 people and injured at least 200 others.

Plenty more

>My point in precis is that we know ordinary Muslims don’t support terrorism. Instead

Really?

Not according to the surveys carried about by the Guardian Newspaper.

Lots of British Muslims support terrorism.

How long before this happens here.. months… years?

A message from the Persian poet Omar Khayyàm (1048 - 1122

Allah, perchance, the secret word might spell;
If Allah be, He keeps His secret well;
 What He hath hidden, who shall hope to find?
Shall God His secret to a maggot tell?
…
The Koran! well, come put me to the test—
Lovely old book in hideous error drest—
 Believe me, I can quote the Koran too,
The unbeliever knows his Koran best.
 
And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
 God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
Well, well, what matters it! believe that too.

Taken from Wikipedia, translation Le Gallienne

Joshua,

You dont know if the sermon will be forgotten. Remember these people are blinded by faith and are completely enthralled by the Mullah.

Why is it that you so arbitrarily decide when a Muslim person will follow the diktats of his Mullah?

Monsters may not have a right to be buried but for purposes of public health, they cant just decompose in a gutter.

Felix,

A Persian named Omar? Ali, maybe.

Funny, because I don’t remember any denial or condemnation of Israel.

No? Try reading the Church Times, the Tablet, or just about any Christian paper from the time. Try now, the best part of thirty years later, reading the Guardian, listening or watching the BBC or reading Socialist Worker, which often amounts to the same thing.

I also don’t remember the Phalangists screaming ‘Yahweh is great or God is love’ as they massacred the (insert figure here) Palestinians.

What has this got to do with anything? They were a militia set up to defend Christian interests and were ostentatious in showing their support of the Maronite Church.

Indeed, I don’t remember any of the groups you mention citing scripture or the example of Christ before they committed inhumanities. Who is the rebel non-Yugoslav Christian group who invaded Yugoslavia and murdered all the inhabitants?

Perhaps it has never occured to you that Christians can kill other Christians as well as members of other religions in the name of Christ. Again with the explicit sanction of the Church, particularly in the case of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Why do you think that on their uniform the butchers wore the cross, the emblem of Christianity? Don’t remember people citing scripture to justify themselves? Perhaps you should read Pravoslavlje. And you might watch this, especially the end.

Christians who take part in violence have rejected have rejected Christ’s message of peace and tolerance. There are no calls to kill or subjugate other relgious adherents in the Gospels.

Nice attempt at justification but it won’t wash. Yep, it’s those “carefully prescribed [sic] and elucidated doctrines over 2000 years.” You may have forgotten that the Gospels are not the only books sacred to Christians and that they can get quite enough justification from those, thank you. Even so, “I come not to bring peace but a sword” has been used pretty often. Sorry, but everyone from Constantine to the VRS in Bosnia who killed in the name of Christ was and is a Christian. You can’t just wish it away; it’s no better than saying a murderous Muslim is no Muslim.

Omar Khyaam is one of the most famous Persian poets of the (European) Middle Ages. Have you not heard the line, ‘A glass of wine and thee beside me in the wilderness’? Heavens, Maven had never heard of Oscar Wilde, Black Voter has never heard of Omar Khyaam. What do they teach them in schools these days? By the way, I read somewhere that when the Arabs first conquered Persia they would not allow the Persians to ‘revert’ to Islam. I suppose that they were too useful as pagans, but eventually, the Persians were allowed to become Muslims. Sounds to me as if this verse is about that.

I’m glad that although I cannot enjoy equal rights on this earth, God is looking out for me in Paradise, Great Goan.

Maven had never heard of Oscar Wilde

It was a JOKE!!!! Of course I know of him. In my cell in Reading Jail I even read his declaration of undying love for Jimmy The Screw!!!

The model I use is that when someone gets all pompous and quotes someone or builds an argument on some foundation principles (called “X”) that everyone is supposed to know what it means then the simple “Who or What is “X”?” is designed to deflate such pomposity.

Surely you can recognise an Wildesque influence in my writing. Probably masked by my Shelley and Keats undertones!

Sabra & Shatilla:

Arafat takes his Palestinian terrorists to The Lebanon to effect a coup. It just happens that The Lebanon was a predominantly Christian country. A bit like the French Riviera in The Middle East.

Arafat’s mob batters the Lebanese, The Phalngists batter them back. The killing gets nasty. Sabra & Shatilla are the Phalangists revenge. So, who do you blame, Sharon! DOH!!!

Israel goes through breast thumping to prove what nice Liberal people Jews can be. World says thanks, Israel is to blame for S & S.

It can only be expressed as Christians vs Muslims because each side happened to be mostly of that persuasion.

(Wednesday, look out for my two paragraph description of World War II. Thursday I shall be doing The Crusades and Friday The Islamic Conquest of The Middle East and Europe. Soon out on DVD for Channukah)

…Probably masked by my Shelley and Keats undertones!

I know you want to sound like you’re on a first name basis, butwhen you name drop authors you should use their last names so people know who you’re talking. A lot of girls are named Shelly.

‘The Moving Finger writes: and having writ,
Moves on: nor all they Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.’

from the Rubiyat of Omar Khyaam. translated by E Fitzgerald.

Sorry, Mr Maven, didn’t realise you were joking.

Maven, when will the bittorrent file be out?

Maven had never heard of Oscar Wilde, Black Voter has never heard of Omar Khyaam. What do they teach them in schools these days?

Alan Ginsberg of course.

It wouldn’t be right to bury Stravinsky and Schubert next to Stalin and Hitler. What to do with so-called Schreibtisch-murderers is a big problem too. It’s not good enough to erect and unerect monuments and name and unname streets.

Nick: The worst attacks in India are by Pakistan-based groups and are mostly carried out by Pakistanis. The Indian Mujahideen is nothing but a franchise of the Lashka-e-Toiba, which is tolerated by the Pakistani government and supported by sections of the security establishment there. There is little involvement of Indian Muslims in jihadism because they see both the benefit for them in secular democracy and fear the consequences for them if significant numbers of Indians become jihadists.

The interesting thing about that list you have provided is that it is devoid of killings by Naxalites and the Assamese terrorists. Remarkably, it omits the Gujarat massacre of 2,000 Muslims by Hindu extremists. Like everying on Wikipedia, this list has been drawn up by those with a specific agenda and that’s why I don’t trust a word written in that “encyclopaedia”.

Regarding the first paragraph of your post, Shiraz – how about some examples? Because to me it looks like the well known tactics of blaming it on the victim…again.

Sorry if it looks like a personal attack on you and those of your community who think like you. It’s not. I’ve just read that , and on top of it there is a major security alert in Tel Aviv, with roadblocks, and I have to travel in that direction in about one hour…

To say the terrorists are not true muslims is to sweep the problem under the rug. You must deal with the fact that Islam itself is part of the problem, that it needs to be reformed. However, as long as people like you will stand up against extremism, one way or another, there is hope. A modest beginning is better than none. But if you really believe most muslims think like you, you’re naïve. Look at one of the most democratic and secular countries in the muslim world – Egypt. And I don’t even want to think about places like Saudi Arabia…

Oops, links:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm
and
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809559103068085.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

The racist flipside of anti-imperialism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/30/obama-white-house-barackobama

Gene - 1 Dec. 11.32pm. You are quite right. Clearly I have not been keeping up with my Little Red Book readings lately. It seems Confucius or Lao Tsu or someone originally said, “a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”

I do agree, having read his book, that Ed Hussein may have taken his single step, but he also has to be accompanied on his long march by his 24-hour bodyguard.

I prefer Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who must have stepped out at least five miles on the metaphorical journey, all the time accompanied by a 24-hour bodyguard, which neither of our much-vaunted democratic governments of the Netherlands or USA, appears willing to pay for.

Perhaps another unattributed quote from a more modern singing philosopher is in order; “A little less conversation; a little more action please.”

Muslims have far more to fear from the types of Islamophobes who pollute HP who use such attacks to push collective guilt, demonise and attack (sometimes physically) Muslims.

What sort of fantasy land does this individual live in? Al Qaeda and other violent Islamist groups are responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of Muslims, and Harry’s Place are the problem because they criticise people these violent jihadists and their fellow travelers?

What do they teach them in schools these days?

Just to calibrate all expectations of my intellectual, historical and literary knowledgebase - I last went to school >30 years ago - when a Grammar School meant something!

Quite right - grammar schools have been shite for the last 30 years or so - you only have to look at what they have turned out into these comments boxes to know they should all be bulldozed.

Labour home blog facing libel action from former Respect member…

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3133

Muslims who speak out - but need bodyguards.

Its a bit like the Mafiosi who decide to give evidence and spill the beans.

I still say it will NEVER happen despite the nice words and good intent of a few individuals.

Note how India’s 9/11 has now disappeared from the news. By Christmas we’ll all be merrily shopping in Brent Cross or Bluewater - just the sort of places where an attack could take place - God Forbid!

Why doesn’t Shiraz come here and answer some of the points raised? Is it because the good intentions have been trumped by the realities. Maybe you can’t afford the bodyguards.

Thanks for that, Shiraz. Please ignore the usual suspects here. Ahh, if only, like Captain Renault, we could round them up…

And there I thought that “Maher” was only an Irish surname: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher

P.

Off Topic but worthy of a new thread. Cif http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/02/israelandthepalestinians-mumbai-terror-attacks

Another “You effin’ Jews and your upset at Mumbai”

Is the latest MPAC UK post (terrorism v. terrorism) a small step toward incitement to violence?

Roley Poley Dahl

Are you related to Arleen Dahl who was such a beauty? You’ll find her on Google.

“A little less conversation; a little more action please.”

To which I reply: Much less action; a much more reflection. Almost everything we DO is wrong. Even elminating Jihadists is not a pretty task.

I could quote my biblical Saint Oscar at length.

“To know oneself one must know all about others.” This from the feigned narcissist. To know about our century we must know all about the preceding ones - otherwise, when the revolution or crisis comes we won’t know who we are.

My friend Moses and also my site on Judaism say that Jews prefer to act rather than to philosophize. But he and not only he has a thinking mind. The semi-negation of thought versus doing reminds me of 900 page books by Gurus saying that conceptual thought has no relevance. They don’t even have the decency to offer Bhuddist riddles in place of their loquacious conceptual muck. If conceptual thought, which is offered a venue on HP, is worthless we should remain silent. MoreMediaNonsense do you understand me this time? I said, I embrace you like a brother, but we can always fight and make up again, if I don’t abscond.

I will be sending a few mails to HP as I am full of passion and firy. It can be ignored anything you like, but I have to get it out. Ihave a free afternoon with much to do, but I have a score to settle with HP.

Is the latest MPAC UK post (terrorism v. terrorism) a small step toward incitement to violence?

You mean “Its da Jew agen, innit!” http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5123/102/

“Starving Gazans” - does anyone know the count of Gazans who have starved to death in the last two years? Zero?

Maybe “hungry” would be fairer. Maybe “shortage of sweets”. “Not enough cigarrettes”

Are the dupes STILL buying it?

“Note how India’s 9/11 has now disappeared from the news.”

It will disappear from the Indian news once the state elections are over. Then Shiv Sena - the Maharati Hindu extremist “Army of God” - will be waging a war against Biharis over supposed favouritism in railway examinations. And no-one here will give a damn either.

The Quilliam Foundation has successfully opened a public space in which it is possible to be fully Western and fully Muslim

Oh really, sweetie?

Quilliam himself was an islamist nutter whom most here would never want to be around. He was a royal pain in the ass, and so I find the pronouncements of an insitution named after such a distasteful and disgusting sociopath/demopath hardly reassuring.

It’s the little islamist game of my-house-is-my-house-and-YOUR-house-is-my-house. That’s what the Quilliam ‘Foundation’ is all about.

It’s all about territory, about stealing territory, about settling right down, like a old hen on its eggs, and then cackling to all that you’re fully Muslim AND fully integrated…at least for the time being!

It is simply impossible to be both ‘fully’ westen and fully Muslim.

The proof?

Were any sincere integration/compromise possible between Muslims and non-Muslims, one wonders why this happy day hasn’t happened in India where islam rudely ‘established’ itself 13 centuries ago, and where the vast majority of Muslims continue to live in a self-imposed segregation/apartheid wherein contact with the impures is reduced to the strictest minimum.

13 centuries of ‘presence’ in India and STILL no integration.

Think about that.

And as for the small step, the small gesture? I don’t think that it should in any way impede or prevent ALL of India’s non-Muslim communities from tearing a big fucking collective strip tight off the back of the county’s august and largely worthless Muslim community.

This cemetary bullshit simply marks for the completion, the closure on yet another muderous round of Islamist passive aggression.

Muslims do this all the time, repeatedly, endlessly, but yet one can never, ever, ever blame the larger Muslim community who are reading, it appears, a completely different Koran, a pacifist Koran, a Koran one written by the Buddha himself.

Make no mistake.

A riposte is called for. This horseshit cannot go unanswered.

Be a good little Muslim Shiraz and take a long, long hike eastwards.

“One small step for Muslims - a giant step for Islam” ….

….. and as much chance as Bungle landing on the moon.

Protest and eat more croissants I say!!

This cemetary bullshit simply marks for the completion, the closure on yet another muderous round of Islamist passive aggression.

Muslims do this all the time, repeatedly, endlessly, but yet one can never, ever, ever blame the larger Muslim community who are reading, it appears, a completely different Koran, a pacifist Koran, a Koran one written by the Buddha himself.

Point candidly made John P. I know I have echoed the same.

If Blair says that 7/7 bombers were following a perversion of Islam then my question that always follows is “Can we all be told the names of the book they use that’s different to the one used by ordinary Muslims so we can study them and find out what makes them tick?”.

Doh!!

Shiraz Maher must be disappointed by the reacxtions to his article. I’m not surprised he has not answered any mail. He descended into the den of lions and proffered a timid hand of friendship which was lopped off Jihad-style.

Shiraz, excuse me for mistaking you as a woman, but I’m sure you have nothing against women.

David T’s appeal against anti-Muslim bigotry has been buried by tons of shit. Blind hatred, which I can understand, but if there is to be any hope we have to go beyond this.

I have a fairly developed sixth sense, I may well be mistaken, but I guess that some of the correspondents to HP were Marxists when they were younger and have transferred their fanaticism to the New Right, like the New Philosophy of ex-Marxists in France.

I was really depressed by the mails that describe Islam and the Koran as being black as hell from day one - depressed, because I thought it was true. But there are still people living under the new Fudamentalist regimes, many ireeparably brain-damaged, certainly not all. And it has not all been black as hell: there was the Golden Age of Islam, poetry that has no trace of fundamentalism in it, poetry which has had a great influence on the Occident. Among may examples, there is Goethe, who studied both Persian and North African Arabic poetry, and produced one of his greatest works in the transmutation of this poetry into German. I have this only by word of mouth, but my sister who is Portuguese, told me that the Arabs brought a golden age to Portugal and Spain. The influence of their art is still evident in Portugal, if only, to my knowledge, in the tiles which radiate spiritual joy and a love of pleasure.

Jews were unlucky in the diaspora to be inflicted by persecution and prejudice throughout Europe, but they were lucky in growing into a relatively enlightened western democratic way of life, on which the stae of Israel is modelled. The Arabs had less luck in their destiny. There but for the grace of God go I, and for this I am very thankfull indeed.

Would the HP fanatics require me to get a signed statement from my charming Moroccan barber, stating the he condemned all fundamentalism; would I have to try and oblige him to hunt down all Islamists in his community? Figùrati! as the Italians say, imagine such nonsense. If I had to apply such principles to the various forms of Jihad practised in our culture, I would have to cut off all relatioships to people, including myself.

I am a survivor of the holoicaust.

All very well to take these steps, but all a bit pointless when you have the Guardian constantly publishing risible articles by Victoria Brittain such as today’s on Abu Qatada.

Third and last missive for today.

I forgot to say that Jews made a huge contribution to Western culture in the diaspora.

Investigations into moderate Muslims and confused liberals.

Today I met a friendly Kosovan who comes from a Muslim culture. I asked him what he would think of me if I told him I was Jewish. He was completely taken aback and at a loss for words. Then he said, “But you are you and I am I. Whi cares about all that rubbish!” He was so disconcerted that I had to tell him I was doing an investigation. He told me he had been happiest in Brussels where all the nations, races etc. mixed with complete freedom from prejudice.

From the Gaon -

Joshua,

Re. ‘taqiyyah’

Try about halfway down this post’s comments:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/16/why-was-this-man-allowed-into-the-united-kingdom/#comments

The discussion is between Yusuf Tadros and Gsirrah.

Also check out the following documents:

1) this article on Jane’s (subscription only) ‘Interpreting Taqiyyah’ by Raymond Ibrahim (http://jiaa.janes.com/public/jiaa/index.shtml) - it may be available, though I’m not sure if it’s as comprehensive, here (http://sixthcolumn.typepad.com/duckwalls/2008/11/raymond-ibrahim.html) which is the Jihadwatch version that was subsequently withdrawn for copyright infringement.

2) This post and its links at Jihadwatch http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015800.php

3) This article from the Boston Globe http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/bostonglobe080402.html

4) 2 hadith approving of ‘prevarication’ (NB - the Arabic texts do not use the term ‘taqiyyah’)(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.267)

(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/032.smt.html#032.6303)

5) This document (http://www.saltshakers.org.au/pdf/313278_VCAT_-_DOCUMENTS_RELATIN.pdf) search for ‘92. Dissimulation in Islam’ - starts on pg48

6)http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015816.php

7)This post and the comments http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019520.php#comments

8) Tafsir al-Jalalayn on 3:28 (http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=28&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0)

9) Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 3:28 (http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=550&Itemid=46) the Eng. trans renders the word ‘tuqyah’ (NB not ‘taqiyyah’) as the word in 3:28 from where the doctrine of ‘taqiyyah’ is derived because it differs in its orthography in early manuscripts - in some readings there is a mater lectionis (ي) which results in a dipthong.

Links in Arabic

1)This excellent book: http://www.adabwafan.com/display/product.asp?id=55412

2)This pdf: http://www.esnips.com/doc/62ef123f-069b-40d6-a52f-f69cc1b7a4e3/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%81%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85

3)This Arabic Wiki: http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A9

Joshua,

Re. ‘taqiyyah’

Try about halfway down this post’s comments:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/16/why-was-this-man-allowed-into-the-united-kingdom/#comments

The discussion is between Yusuf Tadros and Gsirrah.

Also check out the following documents:

1) this article on Jane’s (subscription only) ‘Interpreting Taqiyyah’ by Raymond Ibrahim (http://jiaa.janes.com/public/jiaa/index.shtml) - it may be available, though I’m not sure if it’s as comprehensive, here (http://sixthcolumn.typepad.com/duckwalls/2008/11/raymond-ibrahim.html) which is the Jihadwatch version that was subsequently withdrawn for copyright infringement.

Joshua,

2) This post and its links at Jihadwatch http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015800.php

3) This article from the Boston Globe http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/bostonglobe080402.html

4) 2 hadith approving of ‘prevarication’ (NB - the Arabic texts do not use the term ‘taqiyyah’)(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.267)

(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/032.smt.html#032.6303)

Joshua,

5) This document (http://www.saltshakers.org.au/pdf/313278_VCAT_-_DOCUMENTS_RELATIN.pdf) search for ‘92. Dissimulation in Islam’ - starts on pg48

6)http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015816.php

7)This post and the comments http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019520.php#comments

8) Tafsir al-Jalalayn on 3:28 (http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=28&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0)

9) Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 3:28 (http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=550&Itemid=46) the Eng. trans renders the word ‘tuqyah’ (NB not ‘taqiyyah’) as the word in 3:28 from where the doctrine of ‘taqiyyah’ is derived because it differs in its orthography in early manuscripts - in some readings there is a mater lectionis (ي) which results in a dipthong.

Links in Arabic

1)This excellent book: http://www.adabwafan.com/display/product.asp?id=55412

2)This pdf: http://www.esnips.com/doc/62ef123f-069b-40d6-a52f-f69cc1b7a4e3/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%81%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85

3)This Arabic Wiki: http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A9

Best regards,

The Great Gaon of Vilna

Sorry - commentphilia

Here’s a site with anti-Quilliam material:

http://traditionalislamism.wordpress.com/

They don’t seem to find the Quilliams ‘authentic’ enough etc.

I say we need more organisations willing to confront religious primitivism of all creeds!

Hasan,

Funny, because I don’t remember any denial or condemnation of Israel.

No? Try reading the Church Times, the Tablet, or just about any Christian paper from the time. Try now, the best part of thirty years later, reading the Guardian, listening or watching the BBC or reading Socialist Worker, which often amounts to the same thing.

The question though Hasan old chap, is why Phalangists would demonise Israel? Why would they? And I, personally, don’t remember seeing any in the press. Just what have the Grauniad, Auntie and the Marxists got to do with it?

I also don’t remember the Phalangists screaming ‘Yahweh is great or God is love’ as they massacred the (insert figure here) Palestinians.

What has this got to do with anything? They were a militia set up to defend Christian interests and were ostentatious in showing their support of the Maronite Church.

Using religiously charged language influenced by scripture and historical events involving prophets and other relgious figures that resonate with modern terrorists has everything to do with it. There is absolutely no corollary between Christ on the one hand and violence on the other. You deliberately conflate ‘ostentatiously showing support for the Maronite Church’ (which never happened as the Phalange were a secular grouping cf. Hizbollah, Amel etc.) and the ethnic solidarity amongst the Maronite religious minority.

Indeed, I don’t remember any of the groups you mention citing scripture or the example of Christ before they committed inhumanities. Who is the rebel non-Yugoslav Christian group who invaded Yugoslavia and murdered all the inhabitants?

Perhaps it has never occured to you that Christians can kill other Christians as well as members of other religions in the name of Christ. Again with the explicit sanction of the Church, particularly in the case of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Why do you think that on their uniform the butchers wore the cross, the emblem of Christianity? Don’t remember people citing scripture to justify themselves? Perhaps you should read Pravoslavlje. And you might watch this, especially the end.

No, it has never occurred to me that people could paradoxically ‘kill in the name of Christ’. Where do they get there justification? Muslims who commit murder in the name of Islam cite Allah’s sanction in scripture and Muhammad’s precedent in the Sunnah. Christians, conversely, are unable to do this authentically as there is no justification for violence in the Gospels. So?

I cannot speak about Serbia as I have no knowledge of this part of the world. What I can say is that if the Serbian Orthodox Church and its clerics or laity endorsed or supported inhumanity then they should be condemned. They could not have been acting in Christ’s Name though. What’s more, it’s an altogether different situation to claim divine ordenance not grounded in scripture or tradition, and to actually quote scripture and tradition to justify actions.

Christians who take part in violence have rejected have rejected Christ’s message of peace and tolerance. There are no calls to kill or subjugate other relgious adherents in the Gospels.

Nice attempt at justification but it won’t wash. Yep, it’s those “carefully prescribed [sic] and elucidated doctrines over 2000 years.” You may have forgotten that the Gospels are not the only books sacred to Christians and that they can get quite enough justification from those, thank you. Even so, “I come not to bring peace but a sword” has been used pretty often. Sorry, but everyone from Constantine to the VRS in Bosnia who killed in the name of Christ was and is a Christian. You can’t just wish it away; it’s no better than saying a murderous Muslim is no Muslim.

I’m sorry for you but this just isn’t true. Where are the justifications for murder in the Gospels? I defy you to find ONE example. The quote from Matthew does not advocate violence as far as I’m concerned, and symbolises moral conflict between relatives and peoples over Christ’s message.

You are the sort of person who claims that all those involved in the crusades were principally motivated by scripture, even though there were no vulgate copies of the Gospels available for most of them to read.

And the convention, clever clogs, is to leave the word as it was used in the original transcript before adding [sic]. Otherwise you employ the word in vain [sic].

Where are the justifications for murder in the Gospels?

Hint: Elisah. Bears. Baldness. Children.

The question though Hasan old chap, is why Phalangists would demonise Israel?

It wasn’t Phalangists who demonised Israel, but other Christians, as I pointed out in my reply. As you seem to be rather ignorant of Christinanity in Britain, I’ll point out that the Church Times and the Tablet are not Phalangist papers.

Using religiously charged language influenced by scripture and historical events involving prophets and other relgious figures that resonate with modern terrorists has everything to do with it.

Then you will have found it in the video I linked to, identifying the Bosnian Serb project with Orthodox Christianity.

There is absolutely no corollary between Christ on the one hand and violence on the other.

Your view. Thousands of warriors for Christ over the course of two millennia would disagree. And they died Christians and most were buried as Christians.

You deliberately conflate ‘ostentatiously showing support for the Maronite Church’ (which never happened as the Phalange were a secular grouping cf. Hizbollah, Amel etc.) and the ethnic solidarity amongst the Maronite religious minority.

So, the Party of God is a secular party, right? Cf. Amal, Phalange…as we can see here. Nothing but ethnic solidarity. Which Christians never conflate with religion, oh no.

What I can say is that if the Serbian Orthodox Church and its clerics or laity endorsed or supported inhumanity then they should be condemned. They could not have been acting in Christ’s Name though.

But they were. Everything they said and did was in the name of Christ - Vjekoslav Perica’s book on this is rather good. You can’t deny what people said and did just because you don’t like it. Goodness, it’s like all those groupuscules on the far left busily excommunicating each other because they’re not pure enough. Only with more blood.

The quote from Matthew does not advocate violence as far as I’m concerned, and symbolises moral conflict between relatives and peoples over Christ’s message.

That’s your interpretation; many Christians do not share it. You may also like to re-read what I wrote: “Yep, it’s those ‘carefully prescribed [sic] and elucidated doctrines over 2000 years.’ You may have forgotten that the Gospels are not the only books sacred to Christians and that they can get quite enough justification from those, thank you.”

You are the sort of person who claims that all those involved in the crusades were principally motivated by scripture, even though there were no vulgate copies of the Gospels available for most of them to read.

Where have you seen me make such an assertion. If you knew any Catholic theology, you would know that 1) taking up the sword for Christ was Church doctrine; and 2) extra ecclesiam nulla salus. To deny the doctrin of the Church is therefore to deny one’s own salvation. So you’ve denied 1.1 billion Catholics the status of Christian, because everything they believe is not in the Gospels but includes the teaching of the Church etc.. You also deny Orthodox and Protestants the status of Christians because they believe things other than the Gospels and have their own hermeneutic traditions. Do you accept that anyone can be a Christian who disagrees with you?

And the convention, clever clogs, is to leave the word as it was used in the original transcript before adding [sic]. Otherwise you employ the word in vain [sic].

I beg your pardon. Having said that, your monicker is a chillul Hashem and an insult to my partner’s family.

Sorry, link went wrong.

So, the Party of God is a secular party, right? Cf. Amal, Phalange…as we can see here. Nothing but ethnic solidarity. Which Christians never conflate with religion, oh no.

Two words for you Hasan: ‘Fort Dix’

We’re back at the crusades and the typical islamist rant à pro-pos.

Of course Christians took up the sword during the Crusades, numb-nuts, and they did so as defenders.

The crusades were wars of defence, and were triggered by Muslim aggressions and by Muslim refusals to allow Christians to perform their pilgrimage to Jerusalem

Know any history? Islam belongs nowhere except in the world’s première human rights shit-hole, Saudi Arabia.

A quote from Magdi Allam and one which should stuff a thick wool sock in your deceitful pie-hole:
“How can we call Muhammad illuminated when his hands were soaked in the blood of 700 Jewish males slain in the year 627,” Allam asks. “And since Islam considers the Koran, which incites to violence, the Word of God, how can we place hopes in a reformed, moderate Islam?”

Now when the FOUNDER of a whack-job death-cult personally supervises the slaughter and enslavement of an entire Jewish community, the followers of this death-cult are in no position to accuse anyone of anti-semitism.

You display all of the two-faced hypocrisy so characteristic of islam and Muslims.

Your august ‘prophet’ kills off an entire Jewish community ( for the crime of not wanting to convert) and then attempt to cover your crime by pointing the finger of anti-semitism at anyone who walks by.

Shame on you Hasan to ever think that such a monster could be of any use, let alone a prophet of a god who first revealed himself to the Jews

I see England.

I see France.

I see ‘prophet’s’ underpants.

And they’re very dirty, smelly and antisemitic.

Just like yours and Qaradawi’s!

John P. I was with you until you started the playground taunt. Stop embarrassing yourself and everyone who might agree with some of what you have to say.

I always thought Islamophobia was bullshit and blame-shifting until I started reading some of the regular right-wing loons on this site. HP, David T, Gene et al are great, but seem to be attracting lots of “dittoheads” and their British counterparts (i.e. maven, nearly flintstonian, etc.)
PS: Ankara is capital of Turkey. :)

Here’s one of the dumbest statements by the right-wing anti-Muslim loons on this thread: “The crusades were wars of defence, and were triggered by Muslim aggressions.”

Hmm wars of defence. That’s why they sacked Constantinople and brought down the Byzantine Empire (replacing it with a Latin empire from 1204-1261). That’s why the Crusaders slaughtered tens of thousands of Jews as they slashed and burned their way toward the holy land.

Also John Pee seems to confuse Arabs and Islam. So to make it simple…Arabs come from Arabia. Islam, like Christianity is a religion, and is not bound by geography.

Dave T and Gene the threads are being infected by these self-RIGHTeous knownothings who think they know it all and are full of hate.

They have more in common with the apologists for Islamists than they know.

Well, at least there’s been no sign of Nearly Oxfordian for a while.

Sue R,

The reason why I questioned the authenticity of a Persian Omar because Shiites hate any and all of the leaders of the early community that came before Ali. Umar, Abu Bark and Aisha (of all people) are especially reviled. You will not meet any Shias name Omar. It would be like a Christian named Judas.

John P,

I think you are getting a little too excited. The whole of the Arabian Jewish community werent enslaved or killed. They were banised to Syria, Sham and other places in the Middle East.

And if it makes any difference, tribal justice is cruel especially when it comes from the mouth of one of your pagan allies- as was the case with that particulary Jewish tribe. Jews need to make better friends.

It’s not religion, religion is just the figleaf, it’s power politics. It’s about control of resources, wealth and land, let’s stop seeing it in terms of a fight between different versions of a myth, and see it for what it is. FORWARD TO A SOCIALIST MIDDLE EAST.

Sue R,

Dont rattle Nasser’s bones.

Hasan,

The question though Hasan old chap, is why Phalangists would demonise Israel?

It wasn’t Phalangists who demonised Israel, but other Christians, as I pointed out in my reply. As you seem to be rather ignorant of Christinanity in Britain, I’ll point out that the Church Times and the Tablet are not Phalangist papers.

And your point is? Your original words were: “I remember the massacres at Sabra and Chatila which were committed by Christians. I also remember that those Christians who commented denied that anyone who murders people could be a Christian. Then they blamed Israel.” ‘those Christians’ ‘they blamed’ - did you qualify which Christians? Would it have been fair to assume you were referring to Maronites? You later stressed that copies of The Tablet and the Church Times from this period would yield a cacophany Christians baying for Israel’s blood. Okay, but what’s your point? How does this show that Christians, by following Christ’s example, murdered the innocent? How does this equate to 1500 years of expansionist terror?

Using religiously charged language influenced by scripture and historical events involving prophets and other relgious figures that resonate with modern terrorists has everything to do with it.

Then you will have found it in the video I linked to, identifying the Bosnian Serb project with Orthodox Christianity.

No I didn’t. There’s no scriptural justification whatsoever. What’s the difference between them and Irish loyalist and republican terrorists? You still haven’t demonstrated where scripture and Christ’s example directly influenced someone to kill. I’m surprised you didn’t mention the Ugandan LRA…

There is absolutely no corollary between Christ on the one hand and violence on the other.

Your view. Thousands of warriors for Christ over the course of two millennia would disagree. And they died Christians and most were buried as Christians.

Okay. But how precisely did they follow scripture and Christ’s example? Surely there’s more than a subtle difference between jihadists on the one hand who use scripture, tradition and precedent to justify their actions, and Christian warriors who followed religious leaders but neither scripture nor Christ’s example on the other? It should be clear that there’s a world of difference between the two. No inhumanity can be justified, either Christian or Muslim.

You deliberately conflate ‘ostentatiously showing support for the Maronite Church’ (which never happened as the Phalange were a secular grouping cf. Hizbollah, Amel etc.) and the ethnic solidarity amongst the Maronite religious minority.

So, the Party of God is a secular party, right? Cf. Amal, Phalange…as we can see here. Nothing but ethnic solidarity. Which Christians never conflate with religion, oh no.

You are being deliberately obtuse: Hizballah and Amel are relgious movements in the sense that their leaders are clerics, with Hizballah actually deriving legitamacy from Allah’s representative on earth, the Hidden Imam. The Qur’an and Sunnah plus the hagiographical literature concerning the Imams form the basis of their authority.

The Phalange/Kataa’ib are a secular movement. End of story.

What I can say is that if the Serbian Orthodox Church and its clerics or laity endorsed or supported inhumanity then they should be condemned. They could not have been acting in Christ’s Name though.

But they were. Everything they said and did was in the name of Christ - Vjekoslav Perica’s book on this is rather good. You can’t deny what people said and did just because you don’t like it. Goodness, it’s like all those groupuscules on the far left busily excommunicating each other because they’re not pure enough. Only with more blood.

I could say, “I’m going to bash you on the head - in the Christ’s Name!” But this wouldn’t make it so. Where is the scriptural justification?

I’m not familiar with the book. I’ll read it if I ever get the chance, as long as it’s in English.

I don’t understand your comparison with ‘groupuscules’…what are they?

The quote from Matthew does not advocate violence as far as I’m concerned, and symbolises moral conflict between relatives and peoples over Christ’s message.

That’s your interpretation; many Christians do not share it. You may also like to re-read what I wrote: “Yep, it’s those ‘carefully prescribed [sic] and elucidated doctrines over 2000 years.’ You may have forgotten that the Gospels are not the only books sacred to Christians and that they can get quite enough justification from those, thank you.”

It’s not just my interpretation. To read violence into that passage and others would contradict Christ’s message. If He advocated violence, why did His disciples never use or espouse violence? Your view that ‘many’ share this interpretation is an gross exaggeration.

Other sacred scriptures…right. So how do these other sacred scriptures demonstrate that Christ advocated violence?

You are the sort of person who claims that all those involved in the crusades were principally motivated by scripture, even though there were no vulgate copies of the Gospels available for most of them to read.

Where have you seen me make such an assertion. If you knew any Catholic theology, you would know that 1) taking up the sword for Christ was Church doctrine; and 2) extra ecclesiam nulla salus. To deny the doctrin of the Church is therefore to deny one’s own salvation. So you’ve denied 1.1 billion Catholics the status of Christian, because everything they believe is not in the Gospels but includes the teaching of the Church etc.. You also deny Orthodox and Protestants the status of Christians because they believe things other than the Gospels and have their own hermeneutic traditions. Do you accept that anyone can be a Christian who disagrees with you?

I apologise for making such an assertion. I’d reread the lumen gentium if I were you to fully comprehend just who is ‘outside the church’. I’m no expert, but it seems to me that if the theme of violence towards others played no part in Christ’s mission, it shouldn’t play a part in a Christian’s life either.

And the convention, clever clogs, is to leave the word as it was used in the original transcript before adding [sic]. Otherwise you employ the word in vain [sic].

I beg your pardon. Having said that, your monicker is a chillul Hashem and an insult to my partner’s family.

You’ll have to explain that one to me. A good friend of mine who visits this site is the only person who knows me on this forum and he’s a direct descendant of the Gaon. Given that he has never uttered any protest, I don’t see the problem. However, if my moniker has truly offended your partner then I apologise and hope that he/she will consider my use of the famous polymath’s title as benign if I assure you that I hold him in high regard. Isn’t he/she just as likely to be miffed at you though for using the word ‘God’ earlier?

Peace!

I think you are getting a little too excited. The whole of the Arabian Jewish community werent enslaved or killed. They were banised to Syria, Sham and other places in the Middle East.

Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, and it’s a brutal business where huge portions of the population are slaughtered, die in transit, starve and die of disease.

Heh, you gonna defend the “trail of tears” next, fucker?

‘Fort Dix’, I take it, is some kind of racial slur. Nice to know you’re back to what you’re best at.

Of course Christians took up the sword during the Crusades, numb-nuts, and they did so as defenders.

I’m glad someone recognizes that Christians took part in the Crusades. They must have been very good defenders as they defended themselves against groups from the Albigensians to the followers of Zizka, resulting in their complete extermination.

Now when the FOUNDER of a whack-job death-cult personally supervises the slaughter and enslavement of an entire Jewish community, the followers of this death-cult are in no position to accuse anyone of anti-semitism.

Nor, I would suggest, is the follower of the ecclesiastical body that brought us the anti-semitic Crusades, the blood libel and the Inquisition.

Your august ‘prophet’

Show me one posting I’ve made that says that I’m anything other than completely secular.

Shame on you Hasan to ever think that such a monster could be of any use, let alone a prophet of a god who first revealed himself to the Jews

You presume to know my race, my religion and what my beliefs are about Muhammad without having revealed any of that information.

I see England./I see France./I see ‘prophet’s’ underpants.

Is this the best you can do? Or are you actually a paid-up Islamist?

And they’re very dirty, smelly and antisemitic.

Let me get this straight: someone who lives with a descendant of the Vilna Gaon, has posted on HP (in a reply to you) in Yiddish and who has supported Israel without fail is an anti-semite.

And someone who tells us that the Crusades were all in defence of Christian rights, strongly featuring the right to rob and beat the Jews, is not.

Do you ever notice anything of the world around you, or do you just go blindly on not caring about what doesn’t affect you and your train of thought?

those Christians’ ‘they blamed’ - did you qualify which Christians? Would it have been fair to assume you were referring to Maronites?

1. Yes, the qualification was those Christians who made comments. 2. No. There is no reason to connect the perpetrators with the commentators. Let’s take an example (simplified for the purpose of argument): ‘The murders of Jews in Bohemia were committed by Germans. Those Germans who commented on the atrocities said those that committed them were barbarians.’ In this example, the Germans who committed the atrocities were Nazis like Reinhard Heydrich; the Germans who commentated on them were democrats like Thomas Mann. Other than their being German, there is no connection between the two.

Okay, but what’s your point? How does this show that Christians, by following Christ’s example, murdered the innocent?

You are assuming that I wish to make the point you want me to. I’m not. As I made plain, I was commenting on the original assertion,
If Christians did this sort of thing, you wouldn’t be able to move for demonstrations against it. Thinking of Sabra and Chatila, this is patently untrue.

How does this equate to 1500 years of expansionist terror?

Taken as a whole, the last 800 have been pretty unsuccessful as expansionist terror goes, certainly when compared to Christianity’s breathtaking expansion of terror to four continents.

The Phalange/Kataa’ib are a secular movement. End of story.

I spent two minutes going round the net looking for Kataeb pictures; I lost count of ones with Bachir Gemayel, Samir Geagea and others connected with Sabra and Chatila in the company of nuns and priests. Terribly secular, we should understand. Just like the Labour Party, really.

Surely there’s more than a subtle difference between jihadists on the one hand who use scripture, tradition and precedent to justify their actions, and Christian warriors who followed religious leaders but neither scripture nor Christ’s example on the other?

So the authors of De Heretico Comburendo, the Nederduits Gereformeerde Kerk and the Phineas Priesthood never thought of appealing to scripture? You amaze me. You also omit church tradition in the Christian list, which has a great deal of justification for violence.

I don’t understand your comparison with ‘groupuscules’…what are they?

This might help.

I’d reread the lumen gentium if I were you to fully comprehend just who is ‘outside the church’.

Lumen Gentium, and the rest of Vatican II, is a relative innovation. For most of the last 2000 years we have had to do without such generosity.

Other sacred scriptures…right. So how do these other sacred scriptures demonstrate that Christ advocated violence?

Yep, other sacred scriptures…what Christians call ‘the Old Testament,’ the letters and Revelation. Perhaps you know that the Old Testament doesn’t have much to say about Jesus. All of this is espoused with complete faith by all Christians as well as the tiny minority that view Christianity as having anything to do with pacifism.

Isn’t he/she just as likely to be miffed at you though for using the word ‘God’ earlier?

Party of God is a proper name, a translation of Hizbullah. Anyway, these letters are a series of dots on a screen and have no value in themselves.

well said hasan

Josh,

I thought nomads were used to moving around? Wasnt it a life style?

The Great Gaon from Vilna. (Bow and clap hands).

If you would rite ……… shorter posts, I mite try to reed them.

Black Voter - “The reason why I questioned the authenticity of a Persian Omar because Shiites hate any and all of the leaders of the early community that came before Ali. Umar, Abu Bark and Aisha (of all people) are especially reviled. You will not meet any Shias name Omar. It would be like a Christian named Judas.”

Judas is a Saint in the Ethiopian Church. I am sure you will find some named after their Saint day.

Iranians did not become Shia en masse until the Safavids (c. 1501 - 1722) made them. Forced conversions in fact. Made them curse the first three Caliphs.

Omar Kayyam lived from 1048 - 1142. So he was probably a Sunni. Whether or not he was a Persian is an intersting question given the Muslims of the time did not give a damn about ethnic identity per se. The Turkic peoples of Central Asia claim he was Turkic as do the Turks of Turkey I think - but of course they all usually claim him as their own.

All educated Muslims tended to use Persian for formal, literate uses at the time. That does not say what they spoke at home or where they came from. A lot of what are now generically referred to as “Tajiks” used to be called Persians given their languages are related. He might have been one of those. Personally I think he was a Persian.

Black Voter, so you just assume that all Jews are nomads, so that you can pretend ethnic cleansing is no big deal, but only when it happened to Jews?

Please fuck off and die. Thanks.

I’ll bow to your superior knowledge of Church movements….

…but I won’t let you falsely assert that, because of Bashir Gemayel and perhaps contemporary Kataa’ib MPs posing with Nuns in pictures, this somehow renders the movement itself a religious one. It’s patently untrue.

If Phalangists conspired to massacre Palestinians in retaliation for PLO violence and interference, or even at the behest of Israeli intelligence as some claim, that would be one thing, but to ground their political raison d’etre in Maronite supremacy and their motivations for the massacre in scripture is wildly inaccurate, Misha.

Shalom/Salaam/Pax

Nor, I would suggest, is the follower of the ecclesiastical body that brought us the anti-semitic Crusades, the blood libel and the Inquisition.

But Hasan The Levant is Christian and became Christian quietly through centuries of slow conversion. Jesus was a Jew who killed no one, Jew or Gentile.

Mohammed, on the other hand, was a blood-thirsty psychopath, a satanic intrusion, hated by everyone and only able to maintain power through sheer violence and brute force.

That is why the ENTIRE Arabian peninsula went into open revolt the moment he died, so loved the man was.

See the difference?