A Different Discourse
This is a guest post by Fiyaz Mughal. It was given tonight at the Kinloss Learning Centre / Synagogue in North London
My friends. It’s wonderful to be here today and I am honoured to be invited. I bring a message of hope today, but first of all I want to impress upon you how important it is to keep hoping. So before I tell you how I have been seeking to promote a healthier discourse between Jews and Muslims, let me remind you what is at stake.
We’re all familiar with the historic faultlines in the relationship between Jews and Muslims, and it may take an effort for us to tear ourselves away from those quarrels and look at what’s happening around us – but we must do it. The fact is this: the Far Right is slowly gaining electoral ground in Britain, as it is across Europe. Intolerance and bigotry is creeping in under other names, like patriotism and a narrow concern with one’s own people to the exclusion of all else. The irony is that both Jews and Muslims are in a unique position to know how damaging such attitudes can be – we see the consequences played out in Gaza and the West Bank every day. Now in Britain we are facing a similar set of attitudes, except this time we’re all targets.
British Muslims, British Jews and tolerant British liberals of any faith and none must have a clear answer to this Far Right threat. We must be able to show up bigotry and intolerance for what they are – and we can’t do that if we are prey to them ourselves. We must be able to offer our young people a course of action they can take if they are concerned about bigotry and intolerance directed against them. Otherwise they may take courses of action offered to them by extremists. In short, our answer to prejudice and bigotry can only be clear if we are ourselves engaged in a peaceable, co-operative and productive discourse, one which works to secure not only peace and productivity between Jews and Muslims, but in our society as a whole.
So what are the obstacles to our progress? I believe they could be summed up in one word – fear. The politics of fear shapes the discourse between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East and over the last few years it has also threatened to shape our discourse here in Britain. We have seen the growth of negative stereotyping and a the birth of a climate of suspicion. If the measure of a civilised society is how it treats its minorities, we in Britain are at risk of going backwards. I don’t believe we should agonise and blame ourselves for this – the politics of fear is partly about the responses of individuals but it’s also about expediency for governments. The politics of fear is useful to politicians – it is not the domain of one side or one community. All sides in the Middle East and our own government in the UK has at some time, in some way, thrived on the politics of fear. Politicians and their PR men look to fear to gain the party advantage, and the press look for the negative angle to sell more papers. And so the truth – the hopeful truth – suffers.
That truth is that things can change. The best decisions are made free from fear. We must emancipate ourselves from fear in order to make good decisions. I believe there’s a paradox at the heart of the conflict between Jews and Muslims and that is that everything is couched as if the problems are fixed, eternal, as if people can never change their minds. And yet we know things do change. All of us know that Middle Eastern politics are not static – they are constantly changing and fast moving. Once you accept what you know in your heart, that people and even states can change, then you must accept that things can change for the better.
So how can we pursue hopeful change? I’m not going to talk to you about politicians today. I want to talk about what you and I and people like us can do and contribute to. The most obvious way is simple dialogue itself. For the last three years I have been the director of Interfaith, a not-for-profit initiative which seeks to build understanding between Jews and Muslims at home and abroad. In this role I have run programmes, workshops and visits designed to foster debate, promote community volunteering, reduce extremism and bring people back from the brink of violence, back into society. I have seen people change with my own eyes, even people whose views seemed trenchant and fixed.
A lot of what I do (ladies and gentlemen) is informed by events like Limmud’s annual winter conference. We Muslims, I have to say, have some way to go in replicating the success of Limmud’s activities. But we also have a lot to learn from the experiences of you as a community, a community which is integrated and which has become part of the fabric of this country, yet which still has strong cultural and religious values. Values that transcend time and which give a uniqueness to the community. Yet this model of community development and engagement has come at a cost and it has come at the cost of the persecution and pogroms committed against Jews here within the UK and throughout Russia, the Baltic States and who can forget, Europe itself. We all have to recognize that within and beyond faith communities.
But creating a new discourse between Jews and Muslims is about more than cultural events and ideological discussion, as valuable as those things are. It is also about the nuts and bolts of life in our shared communities. Persistent warfare and unrest has led to the total economic dislocation of the West Bank and a collapsing economic situation in Gaza. This benefits no-one and all our efforts, Jew and Muslim alike, can be directed towards projects designed to address this. Right now, civic regeneration programmes are underway in the Palestinian territories. Some of these are truly inspiring, both in the hope they offer to the citizens who live there and in the example they set of Judaico-Muslim cooperation. Just off the coast of the Palestinian territories, there are gas reserves which cannot be tapped by Palestinian expertise as it currently stands. However, a project is underway to upskill Palestinian engineers to make the most of this natural resource. This project is funded by a Jewish philanthropist. So even in the heart of the crucible, there is hope. Not only is it important to develop areas that have no economic future, it is also the best way to ensure that both countries, Israel and Palestine, see the future through shared mutual financial and logistical co-operation. It might sound prosaic, but I have never been so sure as I am now, that peace will not come through the barrel of a gun, but through strengthened economies and mutual trading co-operation. Workaday economic solutions to what we are accustomed to thinking of as intractable ideological problems.
We can support our relatives and co-religionists in the Middle East on projects like these, but we can also replicate them here. Judaism and Islam share a tremendous sense of civic pride, social justice and responsibility and these can be tapped into. Often our young people are crying out for opportunities for productive, fun and economically useful opportunities. The voluntary sector, which I work in, provides these to some extent. But I believe we could be tapping this resource more effectively. Our religions already provide the desire to do good, we just need outlets. Cooperation isn’t always easy. Some of you may know about the synagogue and mosque which stand side-by-side in Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel. Many Imams and Rabbis over the years have nurtured excellent relations between the two places of worship and have even sought to provide guided tours of both buildings to the public as part of the same experience. The only snag with this excellent plan has been the great difficulty in finding a regular day which isn’t either a holy day or a fast day or a feast day in either religious calendar and when both mosque and synagogue can be open. But the hope is all, this is the kind of project I would like to see in every community.
These are not just nice-sounding ideas. A culturally and economically robust community is good for everyone. It means more prosperity, less risk of extremism, an end to entrenched disadvantage. We British Jews and Muslims are in a unique position to provide this robustness to our communities. We both have a past as immigrant peoples. We both bring a new perspective and new ideas. If we can harness our sense of religious identity for positive ends and defy the politics of fear, I believe that we will not only achieve great things in our communities in this country, but we will set an inspiring example to our friends, families and peoples in troubled and divided societies around the world. They need our help in reminding them to keep hoping. The new discourse must be economic and prosaic as much as cultural and ideological – because if we give ourselves common goals, we give ourselves the hope of overcoming our differences.
Comments
| 2 December 2008, 11:52 pm |
You see, religious people are actually quite good at doing this sort of thing. I want a secular state, but I also would be quite happy with a religious Prime Minister…
| 3 December 2008, 12:20 am |
To declare intentions at the outset, I am an atheist. I don’t believe in god. There is no god in my soul – actually, I don’t believe I (or anybody else) has a soul. And yet my feeling is that Richard Dawkins and others of that parish have persistently missed the point. This post is an evidence, an excellent evidence to explain why.
Religion doesn’t make you moral, and doesn’t make you immoral either. Religion (or, for that matter, any “sacred text” – Das Kapital will do) gives you an excuse to be what you anyway intend to be. If you want to be a complete bastard, kill the infidels, take away their land, fly airplanes into their buildings, stone 13-year old girls, hang gays off cranes at the market place, bomb abortion clinics – with little effort you’ll discover all the right sacred quotes to salve your conscience and persuade you that what you are doing is the will of god. However, if you want to spread peace and understanding, comfort the sick, help the powerless, build bridges, reach to your enemies, be a mentsch – well, also then you’ll discover, with equally little effort, all the right sacred quotes to “justify” your actions – if there was any need to justify them.
The true dividing lines are not between religious and atheists. They are between bastards and the mentsch, of all creeds and none.
| 3 December 2008, 12:20 am |
Haven’t read the piece yet, but when has there not been a religious prime minister?
| 3 December 2008, 12:37 am |
“Just off the coast of the Palestinian territories, there are gas reserves which cannot be tapped by Palestinian expertise as it currently stands.”
No shit.
| 3 December 2008, 1:22 am |
Well, I don’t know about London, but here in the Middle East, it’s definitely not about “the politics of fear” — though I can imagine that that sounds real good in London… But in the Middle East, it’s really about the politics of hate, as e.g. illustrated here:
http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/antisemitism-rife-in-egyptian-liberal-press/
| 3 December 2008, 1:42 am |
Any initiative which brings people together has got to be a good thing…
That said, why bring the false politics and taxonomies of ‘right’ and ‘left’ into it? For me, the so-called ‘Far Right’ that he alludes to (but doesn’t expand on) are a spent force. There are plenty of extremists around though: from militant gays and lesbians who ram their sexuality down your throat; Islamic terrorists; those obsessed with anti-Semitism; anti-abortion campaigners; pro CGW warmists who aren’t prosecuted for public order/vandalism offences; men wearing rhododendrons on their faces and walking around with hoisties and Arabian costume; women waddling around in glorified sacks; young ethnic minorities dressed like gangsters and carry knives/guns…all in all, there are plenty of extremists in Britain, but none of them would fit into Mr Moghul’s concept of ‘Far Right’.
Why the obsession with what goes on in the Middle East and the sole identity trope of ‘religion’. If Mr Moghul opened his eyes, he would not that, generally, Arabs don’t tend have a lot of sympathy for those from the sub-continent…especially in the Gulf countries.
The majority (thank goodness) of people in the UK don’t wake up every morning ready to define themselves by race, relgion or sexuality at the smallest sleight or perceived injustice. They just get on with their lives, trying to earn an honest crust and raise their families.
Mr Mughal should ask himself, if he really does think the ‘Far Right’ (oooooooooooh…scary) are on the march, why this is? If anything people are frustrated at a lack of political legitimacy at Westminster, where nobody seems to discuss issues that matter; the question of Europe and the continuing ratchet effect of further political and cultural integration without an electoral mandate; immigration and devolution. These issues and more are considered important by the electorate, but are not discussed with any degree of regularity or gravity by the establishment.
Anti-Semitism has increased principally because of the growing militancy and confidence of the UK’s Islamic community and the elite’s constant Israel bashing.
‘Islamophobia’ has increased because of the increasing insularity of Muslim communities, Islamic terrorism and demographics for example. Why can’t communties work together as human beings first and foremost instead of pidegonholing each other and claiming preferential status? Who can blame UK natives for thinking increasingly in terms of their own selfish identity?
| 3 December 2008, 1:48 am |
The answer to his question ’so what are the obstacles to our progress?’ should be ‘narrow-minded, my religion is my identity’ thinking.
| 3 December 2008, 2:02 am |
Another positive post by a Muslim at HP. This is a good post because it highlights the positive contributions Muslims can and do make as an integral part of the UK, and is surely the way forward. Being positive about folk is just as important as highlighting faults and problems. Hopefully Fiyaz can become a regular poster at HP.
| 3 December 2008, 3:32 am |
Fiyaz Mughal sounds sincere enough. I would submit though, that there is a reason for the so-called “politics of fear”. Innocent people are intentionally mowed down by theo-maggots with machine guns (Holocaust style). The victims’ relatives and countless other sane people complain vigorously to their elected representatives (politicians). The politicians do little or nothing towards preventing future attacks.
There you have it.
| 3 December 2008, 5:04 am |
“the persecution and pogroms committed against Jews here within the UK…”
What’s he talking about?
| 3 December 2008, 5:50 am |
“British Muslims, British Jews and tolerant British liberals of any faith and none must have a clear answer to this Far Right threat.”
great so we are pals when it comes to defending ourselves against the far right.
Who is going to defend Jews against the far left?
| 3 December 2008, 5:54 am |
What’s he talking about?
Maybe he’s talking about that dust-up between the Fascists and the Communists. Didn’t the Heebs side with the Commies? There’s stuff on HP about that. I seent it. :D
| 3 December 2008, 7:23 am |
We’re all familiar with the historic faultlines in the relationship between Jews and Muslims, and it may take an effort for us to tear ourselves away from those quarrels and look at what’s happening around us – but we must do it. The fact is this: the Far Right is slowly gaining electoral ground in Britain, as it is across Europe. Intolerance and bigotry is creeping in under other names, like patriotism and a narrow concern with one’s own people to the exclusion of all else. The irony is that both Jews and Muslims are in a unique position to know how damaging such attitudes can be – we see the consequences played out in Gaza and the West Bank every day. Now in Britain we are facing a similar set of attitudes, except this time we’re all targets.
In any argument between A and B why is it assumed that A and B are equally guilty or at fault? So, if there are ‘faultlines’ between Muslims and Jews then is it the equal fault of both Muslims and Jews?
An honest speaker would refer to the roots of Islam where the Jews rejected it and Mohammed slaughtered those who stood in his way. Since then we have had sermons preached in mosques about the so-called ‘emnity of the Jews’ and stories about how Jews tried to poison Mohammed.
I don’t see Israel TV programs about how Muslims use the blood of Jews to prepare a Ramadan breaking feast. I do see propaganda against Jews (all Jews) of the vile kind.
I realise that the speaker is trying to be healing but to start out as if this is an equal problem and BOTH sides equally to blame ignores who I think is to blame.
Muslims who reject terrorism, for example will be able to say that Hamas and Hezbollah are Terrorist groups.
I note that the drama is being played out in Gaza and West Bank but that implies its Jews AGAINST Muslims whereas the speaker makes no mention in these opening paragraphs about Palestinian hatred and attacks against Israel.
Its the destiny of A and B to be so written about that both are ALWAYS equally to blame irrespective of the facts.
| 3 December 2008, 7:27 am |
We British Jews and Muslims are in a unique position to provide this robustness to our communities.
In a positive sense this is OK. Perhaps Jews can help Muslims in how to keep one’s head down and make progress despite racism.
Its also great if two religions can remove ALL political consequemces of following their religions and concentrate on what their religions give them as spiritual guidance, their moral compasses.
This is Religion meets Religion and NOT Palestinian and Israeli confront each other.
| 3 December 2008, 7:47 am |
Clap Hammer and Ivan
I’m afraid that was your last post on Harry’s Place.
| 3 December 2008, 8:00 am |
“The irony is that both Jews and Muslims are in a unique position to know how damaging such attitudes can be – we see the consequences played out in Gaza and the West Bank every day”
You forgot Sderot and Ashkelon. Oh, and Jerusalem too.
“So what are the obstacles to our progress? I believe they could be summed up in one word – fear. ”
No. Not fear. Hatred. Religiously or otherwise (far left ideologies, nationalism, white supremacy theories - pick one) motivated.
“Not only is it important to develop areas that have no economic future, it is also the best way to ensure that both countries, Israel and Palestine, see the future through shared mutual financial and logistical co-operation.”
The best way to ensure a future - any future - is to teach children that blowing themselves up is bad. How can we expect “shared mutual financial and logistical co-operation” with Farfur’s students? And Palestine is not a country yet.
I agree 100% with Maven: “This is Religion meets Religion and NOT Palestinian and Israeli confront each other”.
OT for Maven: “It might get so bad that they will be left with Change they will HAVE to believe in”. Brilliant. Thank you for the laugh.
| 3 December 2008, 8:05 am |
“the persecution and pogroms committed against Jews here within the UK…”
What’s he talking about?
There is a plaque in York ‘celebrating’ the burning of up to 600 Jews in the castle keep some time in the 12th century. Perhaps he meant that.
| 3 December 2008, 8:09 am |
I agree with Benjamin that Fiyaz’ post is very fine. Inevitably the mental anti-Jihadist Jihadists on HP are back on the war path, confirming and encouraging Jihad on the other side. However difficult things may be, give us a break and don’t just destroy any little sign of hope that appears on the horizon. Fiyaz confirms my mails and the last ones I wrote on the Single Step thread
Fear, yes, I live in fear of the next Jihad attack somewhere in the world, but Fiyaz is not only trying to start breaking down that fear, but also looking at concrete efforts to make life better for the Palestinians. With a better life they will lose interest in Jihad.
Atheism - I too have been an atheist all my life, but not 100% as people can’t live without the Idea of something better. We ex-Christian atheists in the West don’t even know to what extent the New Testament influences our lives. The great religions like great works of art are pointers in a new direction. I’m not so sure about the Koran, which I am still reading. The beginning does not augur well - but maybe Fiyaz and Shariz could tell me something about it.
The Old Testament, the Torah, go back to distint periods in History. a return to their fudamentalism would be disastrous. Homosexuality would be forbidden as it now is by Catholic fundamentalism. But most Catholic Italians and Jews don’t abide by those ancient rules. But reborn fundamentalism is a real threat, not only in the East. The Vatican tries to force its tenets on politicians.
The Far Right doesn’t exist anymore??? You know it does - in various countries in Europe where Nazi oriented parties are gaining votes. I think I may have coined the expression, the New Right, by which I mean people who used to be Marxists - though that passahe is not obligatory - and have veered violently in the other direction and preach such things as ‘patriotism’, ‘the last refuge of the scoundrel’ as Samuel Johnson said.
I have been thinking of opting out of HP, because with several, not all, correspondents, I have the same feeling I used to have of arguing with Marxist brick walls. There is a black impenetrable brick wall, ideologically fixated prejudice. Touch an Arab and you have a Jihadist. Fiyaz and Shariz are selling out to Jihadism. In any case I don’t think the mental Jihadists on HP have the slightest interest in what I have to say. They are interested only in direct confrontation
I merely had to allude to the fate of Indians in America, to call forth the scream “leftist claptrap!” from an Americam New Right friend - he is still my friend as I am not a mental Jihadist.
I will continue to read the leadinmg articles which are really good. I’m sorry about David T. I have never met him, but we have a friend in common. He is sort of like a cousin. But, David, it’s probably better for family to keep out.
| 3 December 2008, 8:33 am |
S.O. Muffin said:
The true dividing lines are not between religious and atheists. They are between bastards and the mentsch, of all creeds and none.
Well just how much shit are the mentsch supposed to take before the ‘bearded Spock’ side surfaces? Normal people can only be expected to take so much bullshit, Muffin. This sound you hear from “wingnuts” is the the sound people make when they’re fed up.
It’s a fucking cycle here in the comment section at HP:
Atrocity.
Outrage by normal people.
Admonishments to ‘just chill’.
More outrage.
Accusations of bigotry and “Muslim bashing”.
On and on and on.
| 3 December 2008, 9:02 am |
Felix: “However difficult things may be, give us a break and don’t just destroy any little sign of hope that appears on the horizon”.
This is what many Israelis said during Oslo. This is what we hear in Israel for years. This is what israeli, american, european and palestinian leaders repeat endlessly. Words. We don’t believe in words anymore here in Israel. So many promises, so many Kassam rockets.
And it’s not only Sderot. There are armed security guards everywhere - shopping centers, supermarkets, central bus stations, railroad stations, schools, kindergartens, hospitals, parking lots. They check everyone, not just arab-looking people (the security guards at my favorite supermarket are arabs).
A conversation at the local hospital two days ago, between a mother and her 11 years old child:
Child: Why are so many arabs here? This hospital should be for israelis.
Mother: There are israeli arabs, too, you know. They’re arabs, but they’re also israeli citizens.
Child: I mean that the hospital should be only for jews.
Mother: Are you racist now?
Child: No. I’m afraid.
Can you give an answer to that child, Felix? I couldn’t. Do you seriously think that words can make this child less afraid, or less vulnerable? What we really need are actions. I don’t know where you live, but in this part of the world words always come with explosive belts and Kassams. Or at least knives and bulldozers.
| 3 December 2008, 9:12 am |
All right David thanks
| 3 December 2008, 9:30 am |
I think that you should read my post again David T
| 3 December 2008, 9:54 am |
Felix: “I’m sorry about David T”. What do you mean?
This
http://www.azure.co.il/article.php?id=474
is, I think, a very good analysis of why words are not enough. An article written by a former commander in chief of the Israel Defense Forces.
I would like answers from mr. Mughal to some of the points raised in the comments. I don’t post comments just to let people know I exist. Sometimes I even hope that someone will prove I’m wrong. If I had no hope, Felix, I wouldn’t even bother to read this blog.
| 3 December 2008, 10:07 am |
Another anti Jewish Pogrom in England occurred at the time of Richard the Lionheart’s coronation (1200 and something or other).The Jews who were about to present a coronation gift were “suspected” of doing so to harm the King.
It seems unlikely though that that is what the speaker had in mind!
A very late anti Jewish pogrom occured also in Ireland (details I think, were given some time ago in “Jewish Renaissance” but I don’t remember much except that it was around the early 20th Century - not sure if pre or post Irish independence).
| 3 December 2008, 10:17 am |
Gets me. Immigrants (it’s alright to say that, he identifies himself as an immigrant) pitch up on British soil and ignore the history that happened before they arrived. It’s like we were all in a state of primeval ignorance until they arrived, it’s like there was never any Labour movement, never any trade unions, never any struggle to build an equitable society. we were just waiting for a man to arrive in a big shiny silver metal bird to tellus what to do. This morning on the television an young Indian woman ( born here probably) was telling us that we shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because she is an atheist and doesn’t like it. I’m sorry, Mr T, ban me if you must, but quite frankly, yeah it’s good that not all newcomers to these shores want to blow us up, but couldn’t they have a bit more respect? Jews were able to intergrate with the existing political instituitions(in fact they very often built them) without acting as if noone had ever thought of peace and amity before they arrived. Mr Mughal has a right to his opinions of course, but I’d have more respect for him if he was saying it in Tehran or Karachi or Gaza.
| 3 December 2008, 10:21 am |
A further thought. If we are to get stuuck in honestly to this debate (as I think we should) as Jews and Muslims there is a question that cries out to be asked. Bearing in mind that we (they) come to the argument AS Jews and Muslims (not nationalists of any stripe, Marxists, Jihadists etc) there are no fewer than 57 nations which are members of the Muslim League - many if not all, with Muslim majorities. There is only one small country, situated in its most logical historic place, with a Jewish majority. Does this not make a certain demand on (specifcially) Muslim consciences and tolerance that at very least requires condemnation of their strident and violent brethren?
No doubt there are questions also that might be posed to us as Jews and no, I am not proposing to ignore the very real problems of occupation etc. Merely that the question posed above is a vital part of the debate.
| 3 December 2008, 10:22 am |
What the fuck are you talking about?
What relevance does any of this have to the post?
I’m sorry, are you sayign that Fiyaz Mughal doesn’t have sufficient “respect”? Where do you get that from? What bearing has anything you have said have on anything he has said?
Isn’t the truth this. The only thing that some people will accept from a politician who is a Muslim is self flagellation and a litany of apologies and requests for forgiveness.
How disgusting.
| 3 December 2008, 10:24 am |
Yes, Pisa, words are not enough. In particular words from Boogie Yaalon, the former commander of IDF whom you are quoting. The guy that famously stated that the strategic goal of Israel is “to brand into the Palestinian’s consciousness that terror doesn’t pay”. Leaving aside the borderline-racism of that “goal” (Palestinians are not cattle), this is precisely the frame of mind that brought all of us here, the idea (which, frankly, follows also from your comments) that somehow there is here one side completely in the right, that never needs to question its own actions and basic assumptions, and another side that acts solely out of hate and spite – and which needs to be forced and bashed into acquiescence. In that Yaalon (and other Likud members) are indistinguishable from Hamas sympathisers on CiF.
Think about it, Pisa. For the last hundred years each side tried to brand the consciousness of the other, force the other side to acquiesce, wallow in its own victimhood, its own fear and its own self-righteousness. And it didn’t work and we are in exactly the same shitty situation as before. Perhaps it is not Mr Mughal that owes us answers (as much as I would welcome to hear from him), perhaps you owe answers, at the first instance to yourself.
| 3 December 2008, 10:34 am |
As a Director of a voluntary organisation dealing with religious matter, Mr Mughal will view things through a religious prism, but quite frankly, he needs to get out a bit more. I personally don’t think the British people are teh monsters that they are often painted, I find British are not on a hairtrigger to slaughter their neighbours. I just miss the old days when religion was a complete irrelevancy, confined to a few oddballs to be honest, instead of in your face all the bloody time.
| 3 December 2008, 10:49 am |
Where has he said any of this?
Is your point that we shouldn’t be at all concerned about the White Supremacist far right?
| 3 December 2008, 10:53 am |
s.o.muffin: there are so many things wrong with your comment - I don’t know where to begin.
Read the israeli newspapers. Compare them to the palestinian newspapers.
Read some israeli schoolbooks. Compare them to the palestinian schoolbooks.
Read some history.
Think what would be your reaction if EU suddenly declares that Chile has no right to exist, and chilean patriots are racist nazis.
Then we can talk.
| 3 December 2008, 10:54 am |
The only thing that some people will accept from a politician who is a Muslim is self flagellation and a litany of apologies and requests for forgiveness.
Change that from Muslim to “Theist” and you have my position. And given how much misery and death Islamo-Christianity and its offshots Nazism and Socialism has inflicted upon the world, it is your correspondant who whould on his knees begging forgiveness.
ONE BILLION human beings dead, MURDERED in the name of Islamo-Christianity and its offshots Nazism and Socialism and *we* are the ones meant to be compromising with the likes of your correspondant?
| 3 December 2008, 11:06 am |
Read the israeli newspapers. Compare them to the palestinian newspapers.
Read some israeli schoolbooks. Compare them to the palestinian schoolbooks.
Read some history.
Look, Pisa, I bet I read more Israeli newspapers than you on a daily basis, know some history (want to compete?), have been educated (so so) from Israeli schoolbooks, have read many Palestinian schoolbooks and newspapers. (Not in the original though.) The difference between us is that I don’t wallow in self pity and I understand that both sides act out of (sometimes right, sometimes wrong) perceived self-interest, out of fear, ignorance, insecurity – but neither acts out of innate evil.
Think what would be your reaction if EU suddenly declares that Chile has no right to exist, and chilean patriots are racist nazis.
Am I supposed to replace “Chilean” by “Israelis” or by “Palestinians” to get your point?
| 3 December 2008, 11:07 am |
Fiyaz Mughal is right to foment good relations between the Jewish and Muslim communities of this country, even if I disagree with elements of what he said.
In general terms I think that there already are good relations between us, and daily life in areas of Jewish and Muslim populations are not fraught with hatred and hostility.
There have been incidents were Jews have been attacked by young Muslim hot-heads, and this must be dealt with. And there is a degree of fear amongst Jews, in relation to our Muslim neighbours as a result. Episodes like that in Mumbai, reinforce a sense that we are threatened by individuals who may reside in Muslim communities
One only has to spend some time in Stamford Hill, to see Muslim ladies, ensconced head to two in black chadors, shopping in Kosher supermarkets alongside Jews, chatting amiably with Frum ladies, to realise that co-existence is not only possible, but is in fact a daily reality.
We have to try and de-globalise the Israel/Palestine conflict.
| 3 December 2008, 11:09 am |
Isn’t the truth this. The only thing that some people will accept from a politician who is a Muslim is self flagellation and a litany of apologies and requests for forgiveness.
How disgusting.
David T, I am very pleased that you make that point because I know I have said a lot on this subject but one thing I said aligns with your comment here.
I think that people who keep asking Muslims to march against terrorism are asking Muslims to grovel some apology for something that isn’t their fault and that they didn’t do. That is disgusting and humiliating.
A better march would be if ALL people marched against terrorism and stood together with the Muslim community. That would be so much better.
I take it for granted the Muslim Community abhors terrorism as we all do. My request to the Muslim Community is to start outing those who are promoting, inciting or suspected of planning terrorism. Words distancing themselves aren’t as useful because I assert we know they are against it.
Maybe they could protest against hate speech in Mosques since they are really the only people who would be welcomed there but I see that as a private affair.
I wish people wouldn’t mis-understand my motives for posting here. Maybe I am guilty of jumping to the second step while trampling on the first step.
| 3 December 2008, 11:11 am |
you’re casting your net rather wide, there.
I have to be, David T. Consistently and intellectual honesty and rigour demands it. I wish it was otherwise, but circumstances today demand it, alas.
I am against Collectivism and its bedmate, Theism, in *any* form. Were I living in the days of David Hume, Christianity would be my main focus. Were I living in the days of Winston Churchill, Nazism would be my main focus. With Clement Atlee, Socialism. Nowadays, it is Islam. All are manifestiations of what we should call the greatest evil ever to inflict the human race.
And as Mettaculture excellently pointed out in that other thread, the reason that I come across so forceful about this is that I have experienced first hand the hysteria and delusions of the Theist. In my case, I got better. I realised pretty straight away that it was all bollocks. You, from your postings, haven’t - you think religion is nice and fluffy and all about Christmas Carols and Tea and Cake (or whatever).
But IT ISN’T. Collectivism is the great darkness lurking (or on the surface) in the hearts of men and women. And no amount of polish on top of it will prove that otherwise.
P.S. a new link for your blogroll - http://www.secularright.org - a new group blog featuring the lovely Heather McDonald, the excellent Razib Khan, Kenneth Olson and the incomparable John Derbyshire, amongst others.
| 3 December 2008, 11:16 am |
I think that people who keep asking Muslims to march against terrorism are asking Muslims to grovel some apology for something that isn’t their fault and that they didn’t do. That is disgusting and humiliating.
Maven, No, the point is this: consistency. How often do we hear about the “Ummah”. How often do we hear about, in the soft-soaping religious introductions to Islam that the likes of the BBC put out, about the “Global community of Muslims” and how it supercedes nationalism and any other identity and so on.
Fine, I say. Have your brotherhood, your Ummah. But it works both ways. If Achmed Bloggs in Pakistan is your brother, then surely Osama Bin Laden is as well.
*THAT* is the reason I demand what I do.
But then Consistency has never been the strong point of Theists, has it?
| 3 December 2008, 11:20 am |
“Fine, I say. Have your brotherhood, your Ummah. But it works both ways. If Achmed Bloggs in Pakistan is your brother, then surely Osama Bin Laden is as well.
*THAT* is the reason I demand what I do.”
Yes but I think it is fair to assume that moderate Muslims do not believe that those groups and individuals, who in their opinion violate Islam, are part of the Umah.
| 3 December 2008, 11:32 am |
Felix: “However difficult things may be, give us a break and don’t just destroy any little sign of hope that appears on the horizon”.
This is what many Israelis said during Oslo. This is what we hear in Israel for years. This is what israeli, american, european and palestinian leaders repeat endlessly. Words. We don’t believe in words anymore here in Israel. So many promises, so many Kassam rockets. Pisa
On my way out - also to lunch - I think the circumstances are quite different. I share your dislikelike of the Oslo agreement (and I sometimes wish Israel had kept all the territories it gained in the 7 day war). But Fiyaz’ words were not only about words but also about action in progress. Trying may fail, bur this doesn’t mean we should stop trying. What’s the alternative? Nuclear bombs on all Muslim countries? Genocide, mental and physical?
I had a quick - for lack of time - look at your link to Moshe Yaalom. I’ll read his essay later. I thnk that Fiyaz, in a different way is trying “to work from the bottom up”, as Yaalom suggests. If I were a little boy in Israel I would undoubtedly be as afraid as your little girl was. My parents would have taken me home and told me that no matter what ethnic group people belong to, you must judge then for what they are as people and that not all Arabs were fighting Israel.
We are grown up now and I’m not afraid of the Arabs I meet in Verona. And they are not Jihadists.
You should have seen from context what I meant about David T. I know his lifestory inside out and we have a friend in common, so kind of know each other without having met. So I am sorry to opt out of HP, I will just see if any other replies are required from me. Then it’s curtains.
You say you don’t believe in words. You are using them. Without words and real reflection we would be headless or brainless bodies, possibly running about like Jihadist automatons.
| 3 December 2008, 11:37 am |
P.S. for Pisa
I will read Yaalom’s article carefully later because I like words and I like to think.
| 3 December 2008, 11:41 am |
AND
I don’t know quite what happened - I axxidentally clicked somewhere - while trying to write my P.S. - and what should pop up, but pictures of DavidT. and all his family!
| 3 December 2008, 11:45 am |
Yes but I think it is fair to assume that moderate Muslims do not believe that those groups and individuals, who in their opinion violate Islam, are part of the Ummah.
YossiUK, I am constantly being told that yes, if Achmed Bloggs down the Offy self-identifies as a Muslim, then he is a Muslim. In that case, should we not apply the *same* logic to Osama Bin Laden as well?
So, friends of Achmed Bloggs down the Offy who drinks and smokes and snorts bacon and who is still apparently a Muslim, how do you get around that one?
What’s Sauce for the Goose is Sauce for the Gander….
| 3 December 2008, 12:33 pm |
Mark - anti-Jewish pogrom in Ireland: Limerick, 1908, IIRC
| 3 December 2008, 12:44 pm |
Yes but I think it is fair to assume that moderate Muslims do not believe that those groups and individuals, who in their opinion violate Islam, are part of the Umah
In the same way that some Jews dissassociate from Israel, some just from Jewish Settlers, some from Orthodox Jewry etc.
I think its fair to observe that just because one is Jewish does not mean you support the actions of Israekl and so because you are Muslim you can reject the views of OBL and Anjem Choudray.
When a group of Muslims say they reject Terrorism I’d like them to say they also reject Hamas and Hezbollah. Will they? Isn’t it a fair question?
When MCB and Livingstone tried to defend the invite of the scum Qaradawi they said that he had condemned acts of terrorism like 7/7. But he advocated suicide bombing of Israeli women and children, and soldiers in Iraq.
| 3 December 2008, 1:03 pm |
We’re all familiar with the historic faultlines in the relationship between Jews and Muslims, and it may take an effort for us to tear ourselves away from those quarrels and look at what’s happening around us – but we must do it.
I don’t think his statement says anything about who’s more to blame for this situation. Sadly, I’m quite sure his is a lone voice.
| 3 December 2008, 1:20 pm |
A conversation at the local hospital two days ago, between a mother and her 11 years old child:
Child: Why are so many arabs here? This hospital should be for israelis.
Mother: There are israeli arabs, too, you know. They’re arabs, but they’re also israeli citizens.
Child: I mean that the hospital should be only for jews.
Mother: Are you racist now?
Child: No. I’m afraid.
That’s a very saddening conversation, and I sometimes wonder at how so many Israeli parents manage to raise children without the kind of hatred you might expect. Perhaps the mother should have pointed out to the child that while there are Jewish doctors in Israeli hospitals treating Arab patients, there are also Arab doctors treating Jewish patients.
| 3 December 2008, 1:25 pm |
MArk: “A very late anti Jewish pogrom occured also in Ireland (details I think, were given some time ago in “Jewish Renaissance” but I don’t remember much except that it was around the early 20th Century - not sure if pre or post Irish independence).”
Pogrom? Shmogrom. You are referring to the *boycot* of Jewish shops and businesses and the animosity to Jews called for in 1904/05 by Fr. J. Creagh. A lot of Jews fled and left for Dublin and Cork - some of them intending to emigrate to America. Some Cork people invited the Limerick Jews to stay in their houses, and a couple of church halls were also opened to accommodate them. As a result of the sympathy shown in Cork a number settled there, including the Goldberg family from which came Cork’s first Jewish lord mayor. The campaign of Fr Creagh was condemned in the Church and in the Irish press, especially in official Republican circles. Fr. Creagh was shortly after these troubles transferred to Belfast and from there to a mission in Oceania.
| 3 December 2008, 1:36 pm |
Fiyaz Mughal must be aware that since the Rushdie affair it has been the deliberate and dedicated effort of Muslim activists and the Muslim establishment and institutions in this country to privelige in all parts of life the Islamic identity over all others, and to ‘bring the politics ofthe Ummah’ to Britain — to use a phrase that sticks in my mind from a Muslim screamer and shouter once, “to make the global local”
It is this that has driven a wedge between Muslims in Britain and everyone else. It is this that bore fruit in all of the terrorist plots we see on trial every fortnight, that bore fruit on 7/7. It is this that has given rise to heightened tensions, and blostered narrow minded identity politics amongst other people, including the far-right white nationalists.
All you need to do to live in peace in the UK is to do what the Jews have always done. Integrate, work hard, do well for your families, and don’t make your very existence in society intractable by playing victimhood politics every single day of the year, every single year of your life. Mr Mughal’s comparisons between Jews and Muslims are erroneous. The group that has followed the template of British Jewish life are British Indians, who have also faced racism, but managed to surmount it, like Jews surmounted anti-semitism, without recourse to the kind of divisive sectarian self-justifying victimhood mongering that has marked Islamic activism in the UK for twenty years. All this stuff about common heritage is meaningless rhetoric. I don’t have any common heritage with Jews but I live and work with them because we share the common space of British life. Stop going on and on and on and on about it. Just do it. Integrate and stop picking the scabs from the wounds on your body that you have inflicted on yourself and on your mind and blame everyone else for.
| 3 December 2008, 1:47 pm |
Paul
You are largely right - my brief internet trawl suggests though some violence but no deaths. But heh this isn’t an anti Irish thing - love them - love them to bits - errr, some of my best friiends - promise.
| 3 December 2008, 1:53 pm |
Gene: “Perhaps the mother should have pointed out to the child that while there are Jewish doctors in Israeli hospitals treating Arab patients, there are also Arab doctors treating Jewish patients”.
I pointed that out. My son has already been treated by an Arab doctor, and as I reminded him that doctor probably saved his life. My son’s answer: yes, I know, but what if the arab doctor suddenly gets angry during the surgery and beats his patient or someone?
His logic is very simple and has nothing to do with racism. He’s trying to make some sense of a very complicated reality, and dividing the world in “good people, evil people” is natural at his age.
I’m not against economic and whatever peaceful cooperation between Israel and the PA. I don’t belive it has any chances as long as it isn’t backed by a thorough change in the education system in the PA (and hopefully in other muslim countries). Maybe if David T. could persuade his friend Ali Eteraz to write a post about this subject, you’ll understand what am I talking (well, writing) about.
| 3 December 2008, 1:58 pm |
All you need to do to live in peace in the UK is to do what the Jews have always done. Integrate, work hard, do well for your families, and don’t make your very existence in society intractable by playing victimhood politics every single day of the year, every single year of your life. Mr Mughal’s comparisons between Jews and Muslims are erroneous. The group that has followed the template of British Jewish life are British Indians, who have also faced racism, but managed to surmount it, like Jews surmounted anti-semitism, without recourse to the kind of divisive sectarian self-justifying victimhood mongering that has marked Islamic activism in the UK for twenty years. All this stuff about common heritage is meaningless rhetoric. I don’t have any common heritage with Jews but I live and work with them because we share the common space of British life. Stop going on and on and on and on about it. Just do it. Integrate and stop picking the scabs from the wounds on your body that you have inflicted on yourself and on your mind and blame everyone else for.
Pablo, stunningly brilliant in my opinion.
I have always said that if Dr Bari (MCB) can say that Muslims are the New Jews and that the UK is like a Nazi State then the answer is that you aren’t really behaving like The Jews.
Of course, Dr Bari is an Islamist and not an ‘ordinary Muslim’ (not meant with sarcasm)
| 3 December 2008, 2:10 pm |
Felix: “Am I supposed to replace “Chilean” by “Israelis” or by “Palestinians” to get your point?”
No. You’re supposed to replace “Chile” by any other country except Israel or Palestine and see if it makes any sense. If it doesn’t, ask yourself why it seems to make sense only when applied to Israel.
| 3 December 2008, 2:21 pm |
Oops. Replace Felix with S.O.Muffin in my previous post.
| 3 December 2008, 2:25 pm |
Maven, it’s difficult to describe, because its difficult to quantify, and it has to be qualified by several details. But it’s as much to do with atmospherics within society, I think. Muslim activists, the establishment, the victimhood mongerers have long dealt with things on the basis that he who shouts loudest gets the most attention. Attention has become the end in and of itself. ATTENTION! LOOK AT US! LOOK AT WE! It’s your fault that we are in this state, give us funding to stop some of us killing innocent people in terrorist attacks, bend over some more because we have high unemployment, even though other ethnic groups manage to do well in British society.
It’s a culture of self-alienation that has become an endless circle that have led to a poisoned atmospherics in Britain. The attention is the point of it all. Without attention, without crisis, these activists would have no reason to exist. So they equate their own redundancy with the welfare of ‘the community’.
It is so easy to get addicted to attention. What they don’t realise is what this endless attention seeking has done to other people. It has made other people self-conscious. It has made other people become as shrill and self pitying as they have been. Because if you can make an entire government and saps in the media bend over and pull their hair out because they don’t have the guts or intelligence or sensitivity or knowledge to see through this screaming wall, the screeches and the screeds, what else is there to do but organise like the Muslim activists have organised?
In the meantime, all of the social problems that afflict Muslims in this country are 98.9% caused by internal, self-inflicted barriers. But it’s so much easier to blame everyone else, than to introspect and deal with the problems. Especially when you can hitch it into the politics of the Ummah, bring the global to the local, oh the romance and the glamour of it all! The political and religious rapture of it! Proper victims! How wonderful and fulfilling it is to be oppressed!
I saw through it years ago, so did many other people. It’s amazing to me that there are still people who can’t. At least people like Shiraz Maher, Shiv Malik, are coming through to start this dialogue from a Muslim perspective. It’s time everyone joined in with it.
| 3 December 2008, 2:27 pm |
Well said Pablo. It’s what I meant but expressed badly.
| 3 December 2008, 2:32 pm |
I can’t believe that poeple still swallow such twadle.
Magdi Allam: “How can we call Muhammad illuminated when his hands were soaked in the blood of 700 Jewish males slain in the year 627,” Allam asks. “And since Islam considers the Koran, which incites to violence, the Word of God, how can we place hopes in a reformed, moderate Islam?”
Mr Mughal:Yet this model of community development and engagement has come at a cost and it has come at the cost of the persecution and pogroms committed against Jews here within the UK and throughout Russia, the Baltic States and who can forget, Europe itself. We all have to recognize that within and beyond faith communities.
When someone embraces and exhaults a man who personally supervised the murder and eradication of an entire jewish community as a prophet, as Mr Mughal no doubt does, then basic logic tells us that the followers of that prophet, forfeit any and all right, and this for all time, to claim to be against racism and anti-semitism.
If you embrace Mohammed as a prophet, as a model, you must then embrace those things he did, and since some of those things involved murderous atrocities, acts of antisemitism on a Nazi scale, then you can only be said to condone those atrocities and those acts of anti-semitism .
One cannot be against anti-semitism and racism, and at one and the same time, continue to embrace and exhault a man who spent his entire life enthusiatically engaging in both
Mr Mughal is full of shit, as is his prophet.
Just as an individual cannot go out, murder 700 blacks in the must brutal manner possible, and then turn around, and with a straight face, claim to be an anti-racism campaigner.
On the other hand, perhaps a few liberal Rabbis would buy it.
Nor can such people claim to be against the ’scary’ Far Right because Islam is the Far Right
Is your point that we shouldn’t be at all concerned about the White Supremacist far right?
No, not really, because as a gay person I realise that the danger to my personnal safety lay elswhere and with another ‘group’.
YOu speak as though there were a connection between supremacist sentiments and phenotype, as though only Caucasians were capable of such evil.
Have any white supremacists flown any airplanes into buildings recently?
I find it unbelievable that controle of a country’s borders ( who we let in) and placing the priority on national interests over and above those of foreign policy considerations and global economic concerns are now characterised as Far Right.
Protesting this treason, the actions of these ‘gunpowder plotters’, is now racist.
Are our elites now are worst enemeis?
I also find it interesting that Mr Mughal cites past pogroms against Jews ( how patronising and soppy)and yet makes no mention of the fact that Islam is presently cleansing the Mid-East of millions of Christians and is wiping out entire cultures that are among the oldest on earth.
Sometimes, you know, they don’t come for the Jews first.
David T. how can you possibly, in good conscience, embrace and portray Mr Mughal as some sort of ally against the Far Right?
| 3 December 2008, 3:16 pm |
No. You’re supposed to replace “Chile” by any other country except Israel or Palestine and see if it makes any sense. If it doesn’t, ask yourself why it seems to make sense only when applied to Israel.
It makes no sense when applied to Israel and we are agreed on that. Does it makes sense when applied to Palestinians? You are willfully misrepresenting my argument, which is neither nice nor honest.
| 3 December 2008, 3:26 pm |
Who is this man? What are his credentials? Is he on record as publicy condemning the atrocities committed in the name of his prophet? How can I trust him to stand up to the extremists in his religion who perpetrate harm and destruction?
He carefully misses out from his lecture that the role of Islam on earth is to subjugate everything to it and no amount of cosyness in a synagogue and his delight in being there detracts from that.
“One cannot be against anti-semitism and racism, and at one and the same time, continue to embrace and exhault a man who spent his entire life enthusiatically engaging in both.”
In this I am with John P. If this person willingly embraces the prophet of a religion which wantonly slaughtered unbelievers and still does, if he tries to model his life on such a person then I have no time for him and I believe that he is acting in bad faith by speaking in this vein at all.
Let him leave Islam and come back here and repeat what he says from the heart - if, that is, he is left unharmed to do it.
| 3 December 2008, 3:39 pm |
Felix, does it make sense to you that a Muslim who believes that Mohammed is a prime example to follow (and Muslims are required to emulate Mohammed, which is akin to worship, even idolatry) can possible be able to deal long term with the resulting cognitive disonance which requires him to want to live in peace with kufr?
For myself I am sick and tired of given Islam second, third, and fourth and then some chances.
This man is saying what he thinks his audience wants to hear and his anodyne delivery is meant, I believe, to soothe them that Isam means them no harm. It doesn’t, provided that they subjugate themselves to it, but Mughal takes care not to make that clear. Instead he careful crafts a rosy picture about the future, leaving out what will happen if we don’t knuckle under.
Extreme though it sounds, I am with WontBeFooled. Islam is incompatible with pluralistic societies. It has no sense of reciprocity, of live and let live. Sooner or later it wants to take over. All the soft soaping about delight in being in a synagogue doesn’t detract from that.
| 3 December 2008, 4:25 pm |
I’d take John P more seriously if he wasn’t an unapologetic theocrat who sold out his humanity to the slavery of Theism. His deity is Yahweh, Osama Bin Laden’s is Allah - there’s precious little difference between them, to be frank.
| 3 December 2008, 5:07 pm |
Have any white supremacists flown any airplanes into buildings recently?
No, they prefer to use trucks.
Sometimes, you know, they don’t come for the Jews first.
No? Look back fifty or sixty years; maybe the Jews have already been come for.
Much as this sort of commentary is distasteful, at least HP gives you the right to print it. That is very brave of all who manage the site; in Britain, bloggers get http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/01/british-police-have-been-charged-with.html‘>arrested for similar comments delivered rather more mildly. I salute HP for showing real courage and commitment to their values, not the ‘abuse-the-Jews-from-the-pews’ variety of Deborah Fink.
| 3 December 2008, 5:09 pm |
No preview. Grrr.
| 3 December 2008, 6:02 pm |
So Hasan, like any twerp at SWP or in GG’s entourage, you’re of the opinion that there is a complete moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam as it was ‘practised’ last week in Mumbai!
Are you a troofer too?
A man who believes Mohammed is the model to follow, and most practising Muslim males do, is a man who condones acts of murderous antisemitism. He is a man that views the complete and brutal eradication of Medina’s Jewish community as the moral example to follow.
Do you renounce Mohammed, Hasan, and can you do so in a clear and unambiguous manner?
Otherwise, could we assume ( and I think we could) that you’re actually a closet anti-semite?
If you follow Mohammed and exhault him as the “seal of the prophets”, then you are most certainly a Jew-hater.
Oh! By the way, Tim McVeigh had connections with Islamists.
And what to say of Hitler’s admiration for the faith, eh?
His deity is Yahweh, Osama Bin Laden’s is Allah - there’s precious little difference between them, to be frank.
Morgoth, Mohammed killed 1000s, was clearly insane, and the ‘faith’ he founded does little more than facilitate ’satanic’ intrusions into this life, this level of existence, such as the one we witnessed last week in India. He was an evil man.
Jesus killed no one and has the added attraction of being able to transform water into wine.
He’s the kind of guy you’d want at your party.
| 3 December 2008, 7:32 pm |
Morgoth, Mohammed killed 1000s, was clearly insane, and the ‘faith’ he founded does little more than facilitate ’satanic’ intrusions into this life, this level of existence, such as the one we witnessed last week in India. He was an evil man.
It is undoubtedly true that Mohammed was a warlord who slaughtered many innocent people. Shhhh! You must never raise this because many ordinary Muslims revere Mohammed - but reject some of his past - one sincerely hopes.
We must refrain from using the Koran as a source because as non-believers we don’t understand it and all the contexts - so I am told.
Discourse of this nature doesn’t help because it pours more scorn on ordinary Muslims.
I think its enough that they call Hamas and Hezbollah Terrorists and deliver potential Jihadists and racists (who speak in bad terms about Jews and The Kuffar) to the police and we’ll have a cleaned up Muslim community that allows them to get on with things.
| 3 December 2008, 8:39 pm |
“Discourse of this nature doesn’t help because it pours more scorn on ordinary Muslims.
“I think its enough that they call Hamas and Hezbollah Terrorists and deliver potential Jihadists and racists (who speak in bad terms about Jews and The Kuffar) to the police and we’ll have a cleaned up Muslim community that allows them to get on with things.”
Do you believe in Santa Claus, too, Maven?
| 3 December 2008, 9:21 pm |
So Hasan, like any twerp at SWP or in GG’s entourage, you’re of the opinion that there is a complete moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam as it was ‘practised’ last week in Mumbai!
Did I say that? Of course not. As usual you pay no attention to anything that doesn’t fit into your own discourse.
Do you renounce Mohammed, Hasan, and can you do so in a clear and unambiguous manner?
“Do you renounce the Devil and all his works?” Get over yourself.
If you don’t know what “secular” means, perhaps this might help.
Otherwise, could we assume ( and I think we could) that you’re actually a closet anti-semite?
Do you renounce the Catholic Church, the Crusades against the Jews, the Inquisition, the forced conversions and the destruction of the Talmud?
Oh! By the way, Tim McVeigh had connections with Islamists.
I’ve conspiracy theories on these lines, but nothing beyond the sort of hate-fests you reproduce here. He was, however, a white supremacist. Given your recent posts on Muslims, African-Americans, Albanians and anyone else who isn’t white, all I can think is that it’s typical that you abandon your own when they get caught?
And what to say of Hitler’s admiration for the faith, eh?
Unlike the Catholic Church, he never said the Shahadah and he never took it so seriously as to sign a Concordat with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
| 3 December 2008, 9:33 pm |
More blather from John Pee: “What of Hitler’s admiration for the faith, eh?”
Hitler liked dogs too… so is that a reason to shun them?
I guess John Pee and the rest of the Muslim haters won’t be satisfied until the world’s 1.2 muslims unconditionally renounce their faith…
But it’s fascinating how he takes the words from Muslim holy books so literally while ignoring the barbarousness of the Old Testament. Dont’ get me wrong, there is no equivalence between today’s Christians and today’s Islamists…. but that’s not what’s being advocated. Rather, it’s all being blamed on the 1300-year-old words of Muhammed. And given that historical examples abound of the tolerance and civility of earlier Muslim periods, this kind of talk is just incredibly stupid. As I’ve written elsewhere, I always thought Islamophobia was so much Islamist bullshit until I read comments by the likes of John Pee, “maven,” alcuin and barely darwinian. cheers all.
| 3 December 2008, 9:45 pm |
The only positive thing about deborah fink is that her last name is accurate.
| 3 December 2008, 10:07 pm |
This dude mentions Limmud -a pluralist Jewish educational organisation, as an inspiration. The United Synagogue, of which Finchley “Kinloss” Synagogue is a constituent member, boycotts Limmud on theological grounds. Much like their Chief Rabbi Sacks, the United Synagogue is very happy to talk of tolerance with non-Jews (though what they actually do is more questionable), but not with Jews.
| 3 December 2008, 10:30 pm |
“Much like their Chief Rabbi Sacks, the United Synagogue is very happy to talk of tolerance with non-Jews (though what they actually do is more questionable), but not with Jews.”
Tolerance and acceptance are not the same things.
It is not easy and in my view not desirable, for Orthodox Jewish organisations to recognise the legitimacy of heterodox Judaism.
| 3 December 2008, 10:32 pm |
But a non recognition of non-orthodox organisations does not in any way diminish the personal relationships and warmth between ourselves and those Jews who are not observant.
| 4 December 2008, 12:58 am |
SO Muffin -
Yes, there’s something to what you say. I sometimes amuse myself at work by imagining which colleagues might be happy strutting around in a brown shirt or Mao suit efficiently disposing of enemies of the leader. Quite a few qualify - but they are a small minority.
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