Harry's Place

Olmert speaks ‘as a Jew’. But more importantly, he speaks as an Israeli.

In this respect he speaks for me and I hope all of us.

I agree that these settlers should forfeit rights to live with Palestinians and need to be put in jail. Their actions have threatened reaction from the likes of Hamas. It is unfortunate that some commentators simply call them “Jews” without context and then stain ALL Jews with “Look at how Jews behave”.

For once B’Tselem did a service to us.

wow. a sensible comment from Maven i agree with. Maybe there is a God. keep it up, big M.

I need a lie down.

“I’m just a boy who’s intentions are good ………

……….. Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood”

(The Animals)

Serendipity!

Legal procedures should start against all those lawbreakers.

Olmert could have done something to curb their activities when he was still active as PM.

Now it is a bit late to be ashamed. A PM should act and not be ashamed.

Probably he is saying such things because he wants to be invited abroad, when he is a private person.

One can see the same kind of behaviour in Hungary. There also extreme right militias provoke disturbances and the police and justice are very slow – if at all – to proceed against them. And also there the (socialist) PM is giving all kind of declarations instead of taking action.

By showing tolerance to lawbreakers – only because they are Jews – even worse disturbances were provoked. One does not give a little finger to such people, because one can loose more. And one does not take out the wind of the sails of the extremists, because by doing so one strengthens them. So also politicians of the Labour party are to blame for the situation.

I am usually pretty condemnatort towards David T and his articles but bravo on this one David T. A truly decent humane response. We pray that Israel and its Arab and Muslim neighbours can live in peace together as they have done for centuries. A just peace based on pre-1967 borders is the only way forward.

A just peace based on pre-1967 borders is the only way forward.

No, please don’t start me off!!!

Deserved response declined because Gene will just count my posts again.

“…The West Bank will ultimately be evacuated of any Jews who cannot live at peace with their fellows…”

But you don’t say that Arabs who cannot live at peace with their fellows also will be evacuated.

Behind this asymmetry is the unconcious acceptance of the idea that Jews are “non-indigenous”, and have fewer rights than “indigenous” non-Jews, and more obligations.

Precisely the attitude that Abraham battled 3000 years ago.

“…The West Bank will ultimately be evacuated of any Jews who cannot live at peace with their fellows…”

But you don’t say that Arabs who cannot live at peace with their fellows also will be evacuated.

Behind this asymmetry is the unconscious acceptance of the idea that Jews are “non-indigenous”, and have fewer rights than “indigenous” non-Jews, and more obligations.

Precisely the attitude that Abraham battled 3000 years ago.

“…The West Bank will ultimately be evacuated of any Jews who cannot live at peace with their fellows…”

Why the focus on Judea and Samaria? Sadly the disgusting behaviour exhibited by some in Hebron, is not limited only to that city.

There are people, usually young, usually male, that have disgraceful attitudes towards their Arab neighbours all over Israel, and there are also many Arabs who harbour disgusting attitudes towards their Jewish neighbours throughout Israel. This was seen in Acco recently.

The solution, is to punish law breakers, Jews or Arabs, quickly and effectively, while challenging the mindset that allows hatred to fester.

Despite this, considering the number of wars, the level of politicisation and terrorism that has plagued Israel since it’s foundation, the country is doing very well in creating harmonious relations between all it’s citizens, this should not be overlooked

“The solution, is to punish law breakers, Jews or Arabs, quickly and effectively, while challenging the mindset that allows hatred to fester.”

I think you’ll find that the solution is to demonise hundreds of thousands of people so you can ethnically cleanse them with a clear conscience. Like Kulaks. Duh.

You yourself would never dream of demonising arabs of course

What Ben said. Funny how its always the Jews that to leave, have to move, have to uproot their homes, eh?

David T and Olmert should be ashamed of themselves.

David T tells it is about Muslims – Islamism, as he calls it. Then he feels guilty: that -ism suffix isn’t enough. So he takes a swipe at some Israelis.

tells it is

tells it like it is

Jews should be above the law, then?

Of course, Olmert is right. But, as Karl wrote, he is right belatedly.

There is nothing new or recent in Hebron settlers being on a rampage. In general, there exists a substantial minority of settlers who are totally out of control: in Kiriat Arba and Hebron proper, Tapuah, Susia, Maon and elsewhere. As a matter of course they attack Palestinians and their property, harass IDF personnel, destroy military hardware (actions that would have elicited an iron fist, had they been perpetrated by Palestinians). This has been going on for years and the official reaction was invariably supine.

Essentially, the entire chain of command of IDF and Israeli Police in the West Bank has been subverted by Yesha Council and political instruments of the seetlers. Mind you, Yesha Council doesn’t go on rampage, but they provide the political cover. Perhaps one day I might write a post how the political power of the settlers corrupted the IDF command, although ideally somebody more “on the ground” will do better work.

Insofar as the police is concerned, one small factoid: several times few years ago women of Machsom Watch have been physically attacked by settlers. To report the offense, they had to do so… in a settlement (the local police HQ is in Ariel) and found out that one of the most vicious leaders of the most extreme settlers is… a civilian police worker dealing with complaints. So, they approached national police HQ and were told “yes, we know about the problem. Here is our direct phone number, let us know if there are any problems, don’t deal with the Ariel station at all”.

I am afraid that the time of dealing comprehensively with the widespread criminality originating in the settlers – not just violence but illegal misappropriation of Palestinian land and property – is running out. They are rapidly becoming a law unto themselves. Both the extreme fringe and the political echelon which, while officially decrying violence (and probably feeling personal distaste toward the “Hilltop Youth”) is providing it with political cover.

Oh dear me. If there were calls for ethnic cleansing every time some mob of jerks attacked another mob of jerks in the UK then there would be 500 different tiny countries there. You are all blowing this just a bit out of scale, no? When the 130,000 Palestinians in Hevron have to get in their cars and drive 17Km out of town all the way to the brown hills of nothing in Kiryat Arba to protest the zionist occupation of weeds, goats and boulders, we’re suppose to what? Give credence to that? But when 37 Jews throw potatoes and rocks it’s somehow a clarion call for the implosion of every civil organization erected in the last 300 years.

Get a goddamn grip on yourselves. If all of YESHA that the Palestinians manage to keep are to be 100% Jew-Free then let’s just say that aloud. Thank you.

Jews should be above the law, then?

There is a War on, in case you hadn’t noticed.

Furthermore, there are two outcomes to this war.

1. Should Israel win – There will be peace in the Middle East as the Arabs will finally have to come to terms with Israeli’s existance, much as Germany came to terms post-war with its Nazism. There will be a prosperous Israel West of the River Jordan and a prosperous Jordan to the East.

2. If the Arabs win, there will be a new Holocaust. Removing Jews from Judea and Samaria is the equivalent of the psychological effect that the Treaty of Versailles had upon the NSDAP – it allows a “one more heave” mentality to foster amongst Israeli’s enemies.

Until the Arabs are so utterly defeated so that the psychological attitude adjustment in 1) happens, then 2) is round the corner.

And the actions of Olmert and David T are feeding the Arab mindset of 2) and making it come closer.

Jonny Chrome, I don’t think you understand. Yobbos in Hebron are an existential threat to Israeli, ney, the whole of Western civilization because umm, umm, umm David T needs to buy some easy left-wing cred and there’s no easier way than attacking the Bad Jews who wear big knitted yamulkes and have probably never even read Spinoza!

Kind of like how saying disgusting things about Ulster Protestants used to excuse almost any deviation from the orthodoxy. Perhaps David T should smash up some shops in Athens, if he really wants to stretch his lefty muscles.

oh my, Morgoth, on the war path again?

you’re a fucking quasi Satanist, you couldn’t give a damn about Jews, still less that they live in peace with their neighbours

rather your “solution” is more bloodshed and violence, how predictable

the moment Israelis make peace with the Arab states you’ll be shouting them down

I think the other Ben is rather tilting at windmills if he is trying to divine an anti-Israeli note in the piece.

As a racist Jewish supremacist, I believe that our people’s stock would greatly improve if the IDF would simply leave these settlers alone and let them melt into Palestinian society.

the moment Israelis make peace with the Arab states you’ll be shouting them down

The Arab States are NOT interested in making peace with Israel, simply in a new Holocaust.

And YOU are aiding and abetting them. YOU are a traitor to Israel and your people, Modernity. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I wholly disagree with the use of the word “pogrom” to describe the actions of the people who attacked the Palestinians in Hebron. Firstly, using that word does the same job of creating moral equivalence that’s so often used by antisemitic propaganda which tries to neutralize terms like “holocaust” and demonstrate that Jews are the equivalents of their historical murderers.

Pogroms were organized mass racist attacks on completely peaceful and quietist Jews, organized with the connivance and sometimes the active assistance of the Tsarist authorities and the Russian Orthodox Church. They were usually started as the result of antisemitic preaching at the time of Easter. There was also a small number of pogroms by Polish Christians against Polish Jews returning to their home villages in 1945-46 having survived the Holocaust. A distant cousin of mine was murdered in 1946 in such an attack. The Jews were attacked as Jews, with claims that they were destroying Russia, or in the case of the Poles, because they were returning to reclaim their own homes into which Poles had moved. They involved many murders, vicious physical attacks, looting, wholescale destruction of property and the rape of women. They invariably went unpunished.

Here we have an account of a small number of Jewish Israeli individuals who shot at a number of Palestinians at a time when some other Jewish Israeli individuals were being evicted from property whose ownership is contested, but whose eviction has been carried out by the Jewish state in defence of the rights of Palestinians. The individuals have been arrested, and if found guilty will be rightly sentenced to long terms of imprisonment. However, they do claim they were being threatened with lynching, and my understanding is that there is footage showing they were being stoned by Palestinians before they started shooting. Not that that would be a justification for shooting individuals, but it does show how wrong it is to describe this as a “pogrom’ and how much using that term is intended to smear a particular set of Jews as being the equivalent of the murderous anti-semites of recent history.

Olmert has his own reasons for using the word “pogrom”. He is clinging onto power and trying to create a position for himself outside the mainstream of Israeli politics, where he has wholly lost credibility and has no remaining constituency. He is currently being indicted from crimes of corruption, and it seems to me this particular bit of opportunism is fully consistent with the more despicable side of his history. He may well end up on the same circuit as Jimmy Carter once he’s out of office.

“…I think the other Ben is rather tilting at windmills if he is trying to divine an anti-Israeli note in the piece…”

There is an anti-Israeli note in the piece. It makes different demands in the moral plane on Jews compared to non-Jews, and suggests that Jews be subjected to collective punishments for the misdeeds of a few. This is not stated explicity though (hence my qualification “unconscious”).

These settlers in Hebron are scum and should be removed.

However, I too object to the use of the word “pogrom” and not just because it creates a moral equivalence but because it’s inaccurate.

Pogroms in Russia were part of a government policy to intimidate and keep minorities in their place.

Here the Hebron settlers are attacking Arabs but also Israeli soldiers and their action are not only not part of a government policy but are meant to derail government policy of negotiationg a two State solution.

The word Olmert should have used is “revolt” these scumbags are in revolt against Israeli authority. Some of their leaders should be tried for treason.

Morgy, lest we forget has a strict moral hierarchy.
At the top, naturally are those whom are enlightened rational beings, the band of virtue, if you will, basically Morgy on his todd, maybe if their good, Charles from LGF and the Samizdata fellows

then come ‘nearly alrights’, getting towards enlightenment but still in thrall to god bothering, Stalinism (please note Stalinism is a blanket term that covers everybody from Yagoda to people who have a liking for the BBC) and Fascism (please note Fascism denotes God-bothering Stalinists and Stalinist God-botherers). We’ll have camps set up for our re-education and eventual readmittance into the republic of light

then there are believing Jews, who are both sturdy warriors for light and the worst type of god botherers

then there are Muslims, who are all murderers and the even-worstist type of God-botherers

Catholics might even be worster than them, depends on the weather

They shall all have camps till their rational being is carved from their ignorance

You, Morgy, make Saint Just look like James Blunt. For all your calls for ‘golden ages of Humanity’, you are of the same mind as Pavelic, Qutb, Fouche and Budenny. ‘Submit or die.’ Don’t even pretend you care for ‘a prosperous Israel West of the River Jordan and a prosperous Jordan to the East’. It don’t suit, fella

what makes rampaging settlers particularly vile is knowing that if they weren’t certain they would be protected by the state they are so ready to disobey, they wouldn’t have a chance in Hebron. So when they go on an anti-palestinian pogrom in Hebron, it’s only because they are being protected by the same Israeli troops they vilified earlier for removing some of them from the house. Without the IDF, it would be 600 vs. 130K, not very good odds. The same could be said of much of the settlement movement altogether. So I agree with the earlier poster who said the “racist” IDF should just leave them alone in Hebron. Totally alone.

Incidentally, I can remember in the mid-70s when prescient folks (and some non-prescient young folks, like myself then) were saying that settling the West Bank etc. was a huge error that would haunt Israel for decades. It was obvious then, and it’s obvious now, these settlers aren’t worth it.

Muffin:

Hard as I tried, I couldn’t find any point of disagreement with your comment.

Much to your chagrin, I guess.

‘As a Jew, I was ashamed at the scenes of Jews opening fire at innocent Arabs in Hebron. There is no other definition than the term ‘pogrom’ to describe what I have seen’

As someone has mentioned, what was Olmert doing for the past 2 years? His concentration on his ‘legal difficulties’ seem to have addled his brain. It’s still not too late to ‘filter’ the Jewish population of the West Bank and remove those who are classified as being incompatible to being in close proximity with the Arab settlers as ‘persona non grata’ in the West Bank.

I was disgusted by the video of the bloke firing at the Palestinian settler.

It made me sick. I can imagine the kind of ‘hate’ education that that he has been supplied with to enable him to so quickly pull the gun in the beginning and then use it.

I have opposed settlement of ‘these kind of Jews’ anywhere in Israel or the Liberated Territories. They get citizenship automatically if they come from outside Israel. Those that are born here, we have to deal with as our own but we are still letting more of them enter Israel using the ‘Law of Return’.

Interesting that the blokes gave themselves up. Must mean that their ‘leaders’ are somewhat horrified at the reaction in Israel to the shootings. (Their ‘leaders’ are a shadowy collection of rabbis, known extremists, politicians and other assorted scum).

I don’t know if ‘pogrom’ is the right word to describe this act. The actions of the settlers at the house in Hebron in attacking their neighbors could certainly fall into the ‘pogrom’ category as the Arab neighbors were attacked without provocation and because they were Arabs. The instance videoed does not, in my opinion, fall into this category.

Pogroms were organized mass racist attacks on completely peaceful and quietist Jews (…) They invariably went unpunished.

Wrong. Twenty-four perpetrators of the Kishinev pogrom were sentenced to prison terms ranging from one to seven years. This debunks the ridiculous theory that if legal proceedings are begun, this means there was no State complicity in the crimes.

Here we have an account of a small number of Jewish Israeli individuals (….) The individuals have been arrested, and if found guilty will be rightly sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

Again wrong. Omri Burbag, the Israeli commander who ordered the shooting of a bound and blindfolded Palestinian prisoner in the foot, was not sentenced to a prison term. Instead he was transfered to a new position in the Army… training other soldiers.

Nahum Korman, the Jewish settler who killed an 11-year-old Palestinian boy with the butt of his gun, Samir Kuntar-style, was sentenced by Israel to …. six months’ community service!!!

Hasbara busted — yet again.

” Here we have an account of a small number of Jewish Israeli individuals (….) The individuals have been arrested, and if found guilty will be rightly sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

Again wrong. Omri Burbag, the Israeli commander who ordered the shooting of a bound and blindfolded Palestinian prisoner in the foot, was not sentenced to a prison term. Instead he was transfered to a new position in the Army… training other soldiers.

Nahum Korman, the Jewish settler who killed an 11-year-old Palestinian boy with the butt of his gun, Samir Kuntar-style, was sentenced by Israel to …. six months’ community service!!!

Hasbara busted — yet again.”

Not really.

Judy was right to question the use of the world Pogrom, for all the reasons she gave.

And yes, if the settlers involved in the disgraceful behaviour in Hebron are caught, they will, depending on what they did, be sentenced in some way. This violence is not encouraged by the state, and the overwhelming majority of Israeli’s are disgusted by the acts of these few individuals.

Nahum Korman, was found guilty of manslaughter not murder. The courts fount that witness testimony was unreliable and that the forensic expert’s testimony was also unreliable. Combined with the fact that Nahum Korman attempted to resuscitate the child’s life, the court fined him several thousand Shekels, and sentenced him to community service, after having served 8 months in prison.

Shahar Dvir-Zeliger was sentenced to 8 years in Jail and other members of his group were sentenced to 15 years in Jail for an attempted bomb attack on a Palestinian school.

Much to your chagrin, I guess.

No, not really. But the difference between us is as wide as they come. Firstly, I try (in my imperfect and incomplete manner) to apply the same criteria to both sides, respect their basic rights and aspirations while criticizing their misdeeds. I am not in the business of “busting” anybody’s “hasbara”. Secondly, yes, I have a horse in the race. But this doesn’t mean that my horse coming with a “get our of moral jail” card. To the contrary, I expect my side to be moral and fair, and will decry and protest when it is falling short of this, precisely because it is my side. So, even if in that post we come to the same conclusion, we don’t do so from the same point of departure. Whether this is or isn’t to your chagrin, I wouldn’t know.

None of the people who so wholeheartedly agree that the despicable jewish settlers should be severly punished seemes to have noticed the words “Palestinian rock-throwers” in BBC’s article. Like the settlers decided to have some fun by shooting at innocent palestinians for sport. FYI – rocks kill.
https://israel.indymedia.org/mod/comments/display/10769/index.php
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/07/22/driver-killed-and-6-hurt-by-stone-throwing-kids-89520-20661806/
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtSR.jhtml?itemNo=334338&objNo=52745&returnParam=Y

But somehow all of you noticed the stones when the settlers were throwing them…

I wonder…If those two kids mentioned in Indymedia had and used guns to defend themselves – guns against rocks – would they be in prison now? Would their actions be defined by David T. a “pogrom” ? David?

Was that a pogrom?

Of course, when you are a Judy, for you a pogrom is when defenceless Jews are physically attacked by rampaging mob, while the response of the political and law-and-order authorities spans the range between connivance and belated, underwhelming reaction. But when defenceless Palestinians are physically attacked by rampaging mob, while the response of the political and law-and-order authorities spans the range between connivance and belated, underwhelming reaction you are trying to excuse it away, to explain it, to extol the virtues of the rampaging mob. Words fail short to express the disgust toward racists like you.

Yet, it is legitimate to query the use of the word “pogrom”, and this has been done by an altogether more decent person, YossiUK (with whom I probably disagree on 99% of just about everything, but this doesn’t stop me from perceiving him as a humane individual). Well, I believe that “pogrom” sums up very well what happened.

Pogroms in Russia happened in a three-cornered political landscape. In one corner the Jews – devoid of political power, defenceless, exposed. In the second corner the racist mob, the Charnaya Sotniya and their likes, blaming the Jews for all the ills of their society and using them as a punchbag for all their frustrations. And in the third corner the “authorities”, spanning the full range of reactions from disgust to collaboration. Some genuinely wanted to stop the nightmare, others connived with it, nobody dared to step in when it mattered. And the serried ranks of police standing by, watching, intervening each time Jews attempt self-defence, biding their time and then, once it is too late, calling for everybody, “impartially”, to disperse.

Once you tick through these boxes then, yes, it is a pogrom, just replace “Jews” by “Palestinians” etc.

The one difference, of course, is that of scale. Kishinev, the worst of pogroms, was infinitely more destructive and murderous than anything that has happened in Hebron. This, though, is not a reason to desist from calling it a pogrom. Unless IDF and Israeli polity stops from reacting supinely to small pogroms, worse is to come.

The use of the word pogrom is not confined to Olmert but is in common use in the IDF itself to describe settlers activity.

The use of the word Pogrom, in an era in which words like Apartheid, Holocaust and Nazi are used to condemn Israel, is counter-productive.

Pogrom or not, the actions in Hebron are awful. A majority agree on that.

I agree with s.o muffin, that Israel often acts supinely to such violence, but then again Israel acts supinely on any number of issues, just ask the residents of S’derot. Olmert and his government are simply not governing.

YossiUK:

The use of the word Pogrom, in an era in which words like Apartheid, Holocaust and Nazi are used to condemn Israel, is counter-productive.

Is it? In which sense? That it can be used against Israel? To the contrary, once the Prime Minister of Israel uses this word, it focuses it on a narrow section of Israeli society, where it belongs.

I agree with s.o muffin, that Israel often acts supinely to such violence, but then again Israel acts supinely on any number of issues, just ask the residents of S’derot. Olmert and his government are simply not governing.

You will not find me, Yossi, defending Olmert or his useless government. But the supine attitude toward the settlers, their illegality and excesses didn’t start with Olmert. It started with Alon, Galili, Golda and Hazan, and their tolerance of the occupation of Hadassah House and of the Kaddum hill, and was continued by just about every single Israeli government since.

“Wrong. Twenty-four perpetrators of the Kishinev pogrom were sentenced to prison terms ranging from one to seven years. This debunks the ridiculous theory that if legal proceedings are begun, this means there was no State complicity in the crimes.” Yusuf Buster

Bullshit I have already debunked your stupid attempt to link Israeli actions to that of Tzarist Russia.

You are the kind of asshole who never learns and sticks to is prejudices through thick and thin.

Go fuck yourself.

Here is an account of actions against the Jews of Safed in the early 19c:

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/k/kinglake/alexander_william/eothen/chapter26.html

Bradley Burston in Ha’aretz today has a very interesting piece of analysis of the new Israeli anti-Zionist far-right, some of whom appear here.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1044645.html

SocialRepublican, stop trying to project your own prejudices onto others.

My view of the Jewish people (i.e. the ethnic definition, not the religion) is the same as Prof. Tolkien:

“But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. … ”

So fuck off.

None of the people who so wholeheartedly agree that the despicable jewish settlers should be severly punished seemes to have noticed the words “Palestinian rock-throwers” in BBC’s article. Like the settlers decided to have some fun by shooting at innocent palestinians for sport. FYI – rocks kill

Its also relevant to record that the BBC calls them “Jewish Settlers” but never calls anyone a “Terrorist” and certainly NOT “Islamic Terrorist”

If Palestinian kids are throwing rocks, why didn’t the settlers call the police or the army? Were they in such an impossible situation that unless they took immediate action in self-defence their lives were in danger? And when members of the IDF intervened, was it self-defence that led them to calling them niggers?

“Scum”, “pogrom”, “filth”. The only other group of people who warrant such epithets around here are white working class people who vote BNP.
However, in free and fair elections >95% of Palestinians voted for parties explicitly committed to the destruction of the State of Israel, a clear majority supports violence against Jewish civilians in Israel and around the globe and the only thing that can get them all out and partying is 9/11.

They, though, can never be called any collective bad word, let alond “scum” with its bilious racial overtones. That’s the Jewish left for you.

It’s time to dismantle the settlement of Tel-Aviv, you twats don’t deserve it.

“If Palestinian kids are throwing rocks, why didn’t the settlers call the police or the army?”

Lord almighty, you people are just so, so, _________. Maybe I should throw a rock at you head while you dial 999 rather than defending yourself like a self-respecting free human being. The sad thing is that’s probably what you genuinely believe.

“And when members of the IDF intervened, was it self-defence that led them to calling them niggers?”
They use a racist word! They used a RACIST word! Kick them out their homes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember when settlers in Hebron started firing at innocent civilians from helicopters killing children because they are catastrophically incompetent halfwits who need to so something – anything – to justify their pathetic misrule and exculpate their unambiguously disastrous pullout from Gaza?

Wait, that was Olmert. Fuck him, fuck you too.

Fair enough as a descriptor. But no one got killed. The average European pogrom claimed dozens of Jewish lives. just saying…

“Hebron shooter tried to save his son”
http://samsonblinded.org/news/hebron-shooter-tried-to-save-his-son-5067

http://www.freeman.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/399-TRUTH-ABOUT-THE-HOUSE-OF-PEACE-HEBRON-THE-LEFT-DESTROYS.html

Remember, the camera never lies and B’tselem certainly doesn’t. I’m sure the settlers are completely guilty, after all it’s not like Jews have ever been demonised on shoddy evidence before. In any case, some of them used a racist word, so guilty or not they should be evicted from their homes.

I actually haven’t read about the actions of the Jewish settlers of Hebron against the Palestinians, so I won’t comment on the issue of the appropiateness of the word pogrom.

But I have read what they have done and/or prepared against our soldiers (potatoes laced with nails, acid in the face, wheatflour in the cornea, stones in the head), and when I think that it could be my daughter, as a soldier, on the receiving end of those fuckers, makes me want to go personally and break their bones.
The whole Hebron and Kyriat Arba settlement must be evacuated now. If they feel they cannot stand what Israel will do, they are invited to go and live in the Ukraine or Syria.

I note that settlers defaced Muslim gravestones with the star of david which is a beautiful peaceful thing to do, exactly as if Jewish graves were defaced with a crescent, eh, G?

When settlers call IDF soldiers niggers, it’s as minor infraction as when a Jew is called kike, and nothing to make a fuss about.

“I note that settlers defaced Muslim gravestones with the star of david which is a beautiful peaceful thing to do, exactly as if Jewish graves were defaced with a crescent, eh, G?”

Jewish graves are defaced all the time all over the world, no-one, to my knowledge at least, leaps to the conclusion that whatever group the offenders belonged to must be ethnically cleansed.

“When settlers call IDF soldiers niggers, it’s as minor infraction as when a Jew is called kike”
Umm yeah. For example when Jesse Jackson refers to Kikes no-one says he should be forcibly evicted from his home as punishment. No-one says the entire African-American population of New York should be deproted to Georgia. None of this would occur to anyone.

But when it’s Jews – specifically bad Jews who don’t blither on about Tikkun Olam all day and eat ham – suddenly forcible eviction and deportation is just fine and dandy.

Fabian maybe the IDF should evict you from your settlement home in order to secure *peace” with the Arabs, then perhaps you can go meekly and show what a superior character you are. Until then try to put yourself in the shoes of people who have armed soldiers manhandling them because they are settling the land of Israel illegally 60 years too late.

The IDF in this case are like British mandate soldiers. Probably good guys serving in the army of a basically good country, but nevertheless committing crimes against Jews exercising their right to live in their own land.

Well G. if you are on the wrong side of the law, what can I say? You are the bad guy. Even when you are a Jew. Shocking, isn’t it?

What is taking place is that the settlers of Hebron and their supporters like G. are in the process of divorcing themselves from the majority of the Jewish people. A tiny violent far right now effectively anti-Zionist minority, they regard themselves as the only true Jews, but are headed the way of a tiny sect, which like Natura Kartei, is on the shunned fringes of Jews in both Israel and the diaspora.

“if you are on the wrong side of the law, what can I say? You are the bad guy. Even when you are a Jew. Shocking, isn’t it?”

Yeah, like when the mandate shot down that boat of refugees of Tel-Aviv beach for breaking the laws of the day.

**
“What is taking place is that the settlers of Hebron and their supporters like G. are in the process of divorcing themselves from the majority of the Jewish people.”
Likud will win the next election, the settlements will stay and be expanded. You lose. (As for the future of the Jewish people, intermarriage amongst liberal Jews is such that the National Religious and the Charedim will become the hegemonic majority soon even without their greater birthrates. The Demographic argument aint just for Palestinians you know!)

I listened a few years back when the settlers of Gush Katif said that there was no way they would ever be dismantled, but right or wrong, it happened. The belief of a hard core of violent anti-Zionist settlers that they can win over Israeli public opinion is a similar illusion. Once you declare war on the IDF you’ve declared war on every Israeli with a child in uniform. You have taken on the Jewish people, and you’ll lose.

There is only one snag in your argument, G. The only reason Haredim and settlers can survive is as a drain on the secular Israeli public. The security budget excepted, the settlements and Haredi localities (Bnei Braq, parts of Jerusalem) are the greatest drain on Israeli resources. The reason you, parasites, can survive is because others work, serve in the army, pay their taxes… And these others are overwhelmingly secular.

So better don’t try to deploy the demographic argument. There is only limited extent to which a parasite can live off the host. At certain stage either the parasite is expelled or the host dies. We all know which option you would prefer but, well, it will not come to pass. You and Hamas, in your unholy Jihadi alliance, will not manage to destroy Israel.

“Yeah, like when the mandate shot down that boat of refugees of Tel-Aviv beach for breaking the laws of the day.”

If you would like to respect the State of Israel as much as you would have respected the British Mandate, be my guest. But in doing so you become my enemy, and the enemy of all the Israeli people. And if you had guts, you will sign now with your full name, so the Israelis would know exactly who their enemy is, “G”.

Further to my earlier point if you think that the early settlers weren’t many times more brutal than anyone is Judea or Samaria now (especially Achdut Ha’avoda and the other Marxist-Leninist groups) you are either insane, ignorant or both.
**
S.O. Muffin, as is usual with leftist Jews you conflate the National Religious with the Charedim when it suits you (and not, for example, when you facilitate the takeover of religious courts by the Charedim). Most of the former are no drain on the State at all, quite the reverse. Even if settlers were a net drain, which they are not though the ones on Hebron are, they do not comprise the majority of Dati L’Umi types.

As you well know evasion of army service is becoming increasingly normal among secular Israelis, increasing numbers of which are simply moving abroad and will be fully assimilated in a few generations. If it wasn’t for National Religious pulling far more than their fair share the entire Zionist project would have collapsed decades ago. It still might if you Chiluni zealots don’t lay off. Further, to suggest that Welfare dependency is limited to the religious is patently absurd; it is a problem that pervades the western world. At least if someone spends his whole day in Yeshiva he isn’t smoking crack and doing burglaries; I’d much rather have Israel’s welfare class than Britain’s. (I’d be interested to know whether you’d use the imagery of parisitism against them, you’re coming off a wee bit like Herbert Spencer).

In any case if you lot continue to marry out, you lose by default even if the religious only breed at replacement levels.

Anyway, thankyou for your comment, which means I can now add “parasite” to “scum” and “filth” as a nice example of the toxic imagery that pervades this site. It must give you a gooey feeling to de-humanise the people you want to ethnically cleanse.

Morgoth you have clearly stated that deists need to to be ‘re-progammed’ before they can enjoy full civil rights. On the I/P issue you extend Jews a ‘civilising’ mission with regards to the region but still they remain stubbornly ‘god-bothering’. I’m not projecting (evidence of such would be nice), I’m summarising and demonstrating the logical progression of your weltanschauung, Hierarchy of Virtue, blanket terminology of ‘deviants’, inevitable death and torture. Look up Fouche, you’ll find a kindren spirit

What I find interesting about Morgoth’s political views is that they seem to combine a utopian (and ‘rational’ only in the most abstract sense) libertarianism (or libertarian anarchism, a la Robert Nozick) centred on the firm naturalisation of property rights and free-market capitalism above all else, with a seemingly contradictory wanton desire for the massive use of coercive state power to bring about this wonderful utopia/dystopia. Does that seem an at least plausible (if biased) take on your views Morgoth? I’m genuinely interested.

S.O Muffin, I am saddened to see you referring to Charedim and Settlers as “parasites”. To refer to any group of Jews in this way is deeply regrettable, especially when less that 2 weeks ago Jews (charedi) were butchered in Mumbai. There is enough intolerance of Jews on the outside we don’t need it on the inside too. (I assume you are Jewish).

G. Your frustration and anger is understandable. There is and has been for many years an unfair hostility towards settlers and the wider Dati leumi community. And yes the notion that the way to deal with some lawless individuals is to expel entire communities is of course wrong.

But nothing excuses the behaviour exhibited by some in Hebron.

For better or worse, the government has made a decision to evacuate a house, of course there should be protest, of course all legal means must be used to prevent expulsions, but resorting to rioting, or desecrating graves demeans all those evolved and is a terrible Chilul HaShem.

Are settlers (and Charedim) held to unfair standards? Perhaps. But then again those of us who uphold and observe the Torah, should be held to the highest degree of Tzidkus.

I understand that Dati Leumi people feel betrayed by the State, after in their view, sacrificing so much for it. But Zionism was created as a secular movement, and those Jews who embraced it contrary to the advice of nearly all the Gedolim at the time, believed that they could at best change it from within or at worst just ignore the irreconcilable. They were wrong, and continue to be wrong.

Waseem, to summarise, my influences are more Vernor Vinge, Arne Naess and Paul Watson than anything (even more so than Crowley nowadays).

But to answer your point: we’re at war. Rationality, i.e. the Western Secular Enlightenment Tradition, is being warred upon by Collectivism, whither religious (Theism) or political (Socialism) or behavioural (Liberalism).

This war will determine the future of the human race. Either we will have an enlightened Thelemic-based future where the only collectiveness that is recognised is the necessary planetary one (of which humans are a small part) that is physically constrained upon us (until such time as we open up space for colonisation) or a new Collective Dark Age that will doom our planet.

socialrepublican, indeed they do, but in comparison to Islam and Christianity, I’m all for Judaism!

Blimey! Is Mel Gibson going to be starring in either of these two epic futures?

Blimey! Is Mel Gibson going to be starring in either of these two epic futures?

I’m not a big fan of Mel Gibson. Ironically, I thought his best film was “What Women Want”.

But one of these futures has already been written/filmed – The Handmaiden’s Tale.

YossiUK: To my mind, once you have an entire community that puts very little into the general weal, contributes nothing to the society at large (and by “nothing” I mean “nothing according to the criteria of the wider society”) and expects to live off the society at large, then parasitism comes to mind.

The one Jewish town with the least per capita income in Israel, largest number of social security claimants and least number of individuals doing their national service is Bnei Braq, which is an entirely Orthodox, mostly Haredi town. Now, I have no problem with those Haredim who are anti-Zionist and feel no loyalty to the state. I disagree with them, but respect their views. But those Haredim in Bnei Braq are different. They claim to be the best Israelis, they claim that the rest of the society owes them a living, while they do something which the rest of the society (rightly or wrongly) holds in low regard, they cheer up military adventures while expecting others to put their lives on the line. Their political parties go to the highest bidder in exchange for money, money and more money.

Do you, YossiUK, claim that there is any morality involved? That this is what Judaism is supposed to be? Over to you…

S.O Muffin

The whole issue of the State funding full-time Torah education is of course controversial.

I myself, being non-zionist, believe that any institution that can, should refrain from receiving funding from the state.

The state chooses to fund Yeshivos. If the secular majority wish to end that funding that is of course their choice. Of course such a decision will be protested.

Like it or not, Jews with widely different viewpoints have to live together in a small place. The Charedi way of life existed in Eretz Yisroel long before the secular way of life arrived, and the best thing to do, is to find a decent accommodation. It is a balancing act, which requires a great deal of respect and affection to work.

I am not dismissing your concerns and your annoyances. I do not think any less of you, for your views. But I want those who share your views, and those who share my views, to be able to coexist. If you want to remedy the issues of which you spoke, then referring to people as parasites, is not going to help.

Charedim do contribute to Jewish society, in many and varied ways. From the thousands of Gemachs and Tzedaka endeavours to the work of wonderful people like Rav Grossman shlita.

There are growing numbers of Charedim seeking training and employment, and those who learn full time, care deeply and pray with passion for their fellow Jews, Frum or not. You may not value that, but take my word for it, for them to be called “parasites” hurts.

As for the Religious parties, I am not enamoured with them and with some of what they do.

You say all they seek is “money money money” and yes that is sometimes the case. But not to enrich themselves and purchase luxury yachts or go on spectacular holidays or buy designer clothes. But only to ensure that families have what to eat. To ensure that Jewish children can learn of the faith of their fathers.

“Charedim do contribute to Jewish society, in many and varied ways. From the thousands of Gemachs and Tzedaka endeavours to the work of wonderful people like Rav Grossman shlita.”

But they could contribute more if they worked, Yossi. You know, like Bill Gates can contribute millions and millions after -and in parallel- with a life of productive work. Or like common people, who work and do voluntary work too. Muffin has a point here. When Ben Gurion struck a deal with the haredim, they were in the hundreds. How many thousands need to live of my taxes? And what new insights that I can use have they found after so many years with their asses on the benches and the Talmud in their hands? After all that study they can’t even make Judaism enjoyable for the non-haredi people. So no return for my investment…

YossiUK: I take much of what you’ve said on board. The attitudes of many secular Israelis toward the religious grate on my nerves and, frankly, often are indistinguishable from classical anti-Semitism. This is totally wrong. But the reality is that both the “National Religious” and Haredi parties bear a huge share of the blame. They shamelessly exploit a flawed political system and act from a basic assumption that the society owes them. And it supposedly owes them not just money, but security and esteem and the means to perpetuate the situation through state-financed “educational system” which is out of state control.

I am willing to go the extra mile to create coexistence between different kinds of human beings, not least secular and religious Jews. I believe we all owe each other respect. But the best means of attaining this is to take religion out of the state equation. Let each and every citizen count equally (and yes, this also includes non-Jewish citizens of Israel) and have similar obligations and carry the same esteem.

There is a wonderful quote from the Talmud, with which you’ll be familiar: אהוב את התורה אך שנא את הרבנות – love the Torah but hate the Rabbinate. This sounds to me like a good prescription for coexistence and equality of esteem.

The question is now not only being asked, but demanding most urgently to be answered: just what sort of country is Israel? It is quite clear that if she gives the wrong answer, then she will rightly (even if they will never be able to say the words in quite this order) forfeit the support even of those who have hitherto been her most ardent devotees.

Emm, not from you, creep.

The epithet “Pogrom” to what happened in Hebron is an abomination. First the perpetrators in Hebron turned themselves in to the police claiming that the action they took was in self defence. Secondly the Court at which they appeared caste clear doubt on the Bstelem film produced. Third when Jews were the subject of a pogrom it was government approved and orchestrated and ended in senseless murder and rape. If this was a Pogrom then so were the Olham and Toxteth riots when many more people and property were the subject of senseless injury and destruction. I do not condone what happened in Hebron but it was in no way a “Pogrom” and Olmert stains the memory of those Jews who were murdered and raped in them.
Mr Olmert has a habit of opening his mouth before putting his brain in gear and has been roundly condemned by his own security chief. This blog should await a court decision before condemning a whole population, of which I am one.
Furthermore calling settlers parasites plainly shows how SO Muffin is blinded by hatred and out of touch with reality. More settlers children per capita serve in the IDF – unlike Olmert’s sons who ran away to the US my son served in the IDF in a charedi unit, and contribute to the State. I am disgusted with the whole tone of these postings written out of ignorance. It is easy to condemn just take the trouble to find out the facts.

S.O. Muffin,

You are being disingenuous, again. Your initial claim was that the Settlers and the Chareidim were parasites on Israeli society. You conflated the two, and then argued that the Chareidim in B’nai Braq are the largest percapita recipients of welfare, without in any way justifying the slur against the settlers.

As it is, the Dati Leumi community makes up the largets per capita contributions to the front line combat forces. Roughly 20% of the military combat forces are Kippah Sruga wearing, yet in your one sweeping statement you dismiss their contribution to the army.

Do I agree with the lawlessness of the settlers, no. I find many of their antics embarrassing and a hindrance to Israel and a cohesive society. Have those same people been marginalized by the wider society. Well we only have to look at your insidious comment to see that the answer to that is yes.

Look at this attack you wrote

Of course, when you are a Judy, … Words fail short to express the disgust toward racists like you.

Now Muffin, does anything that Judy wrote justify calling her a racist. I only sample the comments here, but i have never read anything that Judy writes as being racist. Calling her a racist is your way of delagitmizing her points so that you do not have to address them.

As for settlers being a drain on Israeli society, what bolocks. I know many Dati leumi who live in settlements who ahve not only served in combat units, proudly, but also have high paying tech jobs that bring work into the Israeli economy.

But if you do want to talk about parasites on the society, you needn’t look further than your local accademic (particularly humanities accademic) who lives hand to mouth on the subsistance of government hand outs (grants) inorder to pursue their obscure feilds of study with little or no relevance to the broader society. Sounds alot like those Yeshiva students

(And although it may appeat that I endorse the Israeli system of supporting entire communities to not work, I don’t, I simply find Muffin’s comment offensive and divisive.)

I am usually pretty condemnatort towards David T and his articles but bravo on this one David T. A truly decent humane response. We pray that Israel and its Arab and Muslim neighbours can live in peace together as they have done for centuries. A just peace based on pre-1967 borders is the only way forward.

Oh I just bet you pray, and let me tell you of your ‘prayers’.

You pray that once those pre-’67 borders are reestablished, the Arabo/Muslim world (allah ‘willing’!) will then take yet another breathtaking step towards reconciliation and force Israel to withdraw to its ‘pre 1948 borders’, and this, in the interests of peace.

Olmert and David T’s indignation and denouciations of these Israelis is a sign from Allah, a sign of his blessings, a sign that Allah is preparing to unleash his pent-up wrath ( as pent-up as yours HPBNP?) on the Jews and to destroy Israel!

Yes, we can see where you’re coming from BNPHP, but. in. your. dreams.

I think that these settlers should be punished for any laws that they break. Intensity of belief and/or patriotism is no excuse to place oneself above the law. I hate it when religious people invoke ‘belief’ to extract concessions and special privileges from those who are more secular.

David T tells it like it is about Muslims – Islamism, as he calls it. Then he feels guilty: that -ism suffix isn’t enough. So he takes a swipe at some Israelis.:O.P.

He DOES seem rather overjoyed at discovering the existence of a handful of radical Israelis, doesn’t he?

S.O Muffin, I completely accept that you seek to create good coexistence between people.

Yes, you are right, sometimes the assumption that society “owes” is present in Charedi discourse, and that is regrettable. (not to mention religiously suspect)

I don’t in any way excuse some of the behaviour of Religious parties or individual religious Jews. And yes all share responsibility.

I agree that every citizen of the state should be treated equally, and yes including the Arabs, but I am not in favour on removing religion from the state equation. Not because I attribute any religious significance to the state itself, but simply because I wish for Jews in Israel to maintain at least a knowledge of their heritage.

I have to say you are playing a little fast and loose with the quotation. Hating the Rabbonus, is understood as an individuals desire not to use Torah as a way of making a living, and secondly a serious awareness of the huge and dangerous responsibility of being a Rav.

“And what new insights that I can use have they found after so many years with their asses on the benches and the Talmud in their hands?”

Thousands and thousands Fabian. The ocean of Torah is never drained.

But yes, we have failed to make Yiddishkeit attractive to our non-frum brothers and sisters, to our shame. We must try harder.

S.O. Muffin,

Ironically, you condemn the Religious parties (although without distinguishing what yo mean by that) without acknowledging that they are infact doing precisely what their constituents elected them to office for. If they didn’t then those votes would simply go to parties which did represent their needs and demands. Their is nothing corrupt about that attitude, even if it is entirely parochial.

Listen Muffin, In a proportional representation system, the elected officials do not represent a district and therefor act in the best interest of the district (in theory at least) and represent all the constituents in that district. Rather, they only represent the proportion of voters that voted for them.

Does this lead to waste? Yes. Does it lead to narrow parochial and short sighted policies? Yes. But you know what, all the small parties leverage their special intetest agaist the broader interests of the state. You want to change that, I will be the first in line to join you in campaigning for anend to porportional representation. But do not accuse the religious of corrupting a political system merely because they know how to most effectively exploit it.

Joe: racist is somebody who forms his or her attitude toward rights and wrongs perpetrated by Side A toward Side B depending in the main on the racial or ethnic origin of the sides in question. Whoever dismisses “firing at some Palestinians” as a minor, insignificant event, while clearly (and rightly) regards firing at some Jews as an outrage is a racist. Full stop.

As it is, the Dati Leumi community makes up the largets per capita contributions to the front line combat forces.

For goodness sake! At the height of the second Intifada, each settlement in Gaza Strip was secured by combat soldiers in numbers well in excess of the local population. In Hebron nowadays an entire brigade is permanently deployed, safeguarding the settlers (yes, the very same who fight these soldiers, provoke them and curse them).

The Dati Leumi community of your discourse are using and abusing the army (and the Israeli exchequer, to say nothing about local Palestinian population) to gobble up the West Bank and replace it by a Settlerstan that has nothing to do with Israel or with the traditional Zionist enterprise, and everything with fundamentalist and messianic pipedreams.

But you know what, all the small parties leverage their special intetest agaist the broader interests of the state.

Really? They (legitimately) insist on policies in line with their platform, but not on vast amounts of money. There have been many secular minor coalition partners, from Meretz to Dash to Lieberman’s outfit, and they didn’t sell their votes in exchange for funding.

Otherwise, can you please explain why each religious party in Israel has its own school system, under its own political, managerial and educational control? I am not aware of any secular party with such a schtick.

Whenever anyone says Yeshivot are a waste of money I usually point to this:
http://www.makor1.co.il/makor/Article.faces;.e34Mc3aTbNiTby0LaxmNbxqRchmMe0?articleId=27530

However, that’s slightly misleading as most university students are too busy lazing around to even properly imbibe hard-left anti-Zionism. I know some pretty dim people who went to Yeshiva and came out a few years later fluent in 3 new languages (Biblical and Tannaitic Hebrew, Aramaic and Ivrit, some of them also picked up a bit of yiddish). Conversely, I know some pretty smart people who went to university and spent 3 years drinking and shagging and wallowing in their ignorance.

To suggest that religious Jews are remotely unusual in artificially inflating their higher education sector is either mendacious or ignorant.

**
“a Settlerstan that has nothing to do with Israel or with the traditional Zionist enterprise”
Uh-huh settling the land of Israel has nothing to do with Zionism. There is a difference, though, West Bank settlers, unlike the original left wing zionists, are mostly peaceful and have not engaged in acts of organised violence against Arab communities.

“Otherwise, can you please explain why each religious party in Israel has its own school system, under its own political, managerial and educational control?”

Because the mainstream school system is an chaotic joke?

But G. – you are not actually a Zionist, are you? You don’t believe in the state of Israel.

What’s not to believe in, Chorister? The State of Israel is a fact. Quite what that fact is, on the other hand … well, that is the matter now being played out in Hebron.

“But G. – you are not actually a Zionist, are you? You don’t believe in the state of Israel.”

I am an anarcho-zionist and I do an don’t believe in the state of Israel in the same sense I do and don’e *believe* in any other state. What I do believe is that the State of Israel is a means in an imperfect world to facilitate settlement of the Jews in their homeland (like Weizman I would be happy with a national home rather that a state, actually I think the best scenario would have been a commonwealth protectorate). It is not an end in itself and it has no special significance either religiously or eschatalogically.

I oppose Rav Kook type religious Zionism because it is based on falsehoods, but mostly because it demands unfailing loyalty to a state (as in the ruling apparatus not the polity) that doesn’t deserve it.

So to answer your question, in principle I oppose the concept of the Nation State though I believe that the Jews should abandon their’s after everyone else has.

For goodness sake S.O., to paraphrase you, you have exgtrapolated all of the settlers to a small proportion of the settlers that live in Chevron. The vast majority of settlers live in places such as Ma’ale Adumim, Ariel and Gush.

Further, you ignored the point that a disproportionate number of the combat troops come from the Da’ati Leumi community. These are the most commited and motivated soldiers. Recently the manpower office has stopped assigning them to combat, much to their protest.

You really are flexible with your interpritations aren’t you.

Further, S.O., If a party stands for election with a policy of say demanding the government gives them, say, $500,000, and they win say 5% of the vote, then doesn’t that party then serve those 5% when it does exactly what its platform said it would do.

Your objection to the Chareidi parties is not that they are corrupt, but that the effectvely achieve their political goals.

Now those goals might be selfish, and repugnant in your (and my) eyes, but that does not make them corrupt!

To. Clarify, you would be willing to sacrifice the state of Israel and the people of Israel to eretz Israel?

“To. Clarify, you would be willing to sacrifice the state of Israel and the people of Israel to eretz Israel”

How could I clarify by answering a meaningless gotcha question? Sacrifice the people of Israel to the land of Israel, huh?

To clarify, the State of Israel, the political entity, will not exist forever; the obligation for Jews to settle and live in the land of Israel will. To clarify further, complete non-resistance the State of Israel is not a religious principle or morally binding in any way. Outright rebellion is treason, defence of one’s home from the army is not. I would personally favour purely passive resistance, but I would not enjoin that on others.
**

Joe, it’s funny how re-distribution of wealth is suddenly repugnant when religious people do it.

In that case your fate is to be a future citizen of Palestine. Good luck!

The individuals have been arrested, and if found guilty will be rightly sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

I hope you’re right, Judy, but what makes you sure? As for “pogrom”– when Palestinians are forced to hide inside their homes while settlers rampage and threaten them from the outside– I’m afraid I can’t think of a more appropriate word.

Joe, it’s funny how re-distribution of wealth is suddenly repugnant when religious people do it.

No it is repugnant when people who otherwise reject the state and modernity, refuse to participate in the state and contribute in a meaningful (and material) way to the benifit of the broader society then demand that the state use taxpayer money to support their non-productive (material) lifestyle.

Further, as I am of the halachic opinion that there is an absolute requirement to work, and that work may not be superseded by the study of Torah, I beleive that full time, lifetime yeshiva study is a chillul hashem. If the Cahreidi society was self sustaining then let them choose from amongst themselves an (accademic) elite that can study full time. The rest of (their) society can support them. But to have the entire society try to learn full time, and evade their material responsibilities, is asinine and devalues teh quality of the limud.

Chareidi society might still be a net recipient of benefits (due to their large cohort of children) but that would be a net benefit to Israel. And I suspect would not evoke the ire of almost all of nonchareidi Israel.

“Joe, it’s funny how re-distribution of wealth is suddenly repugnant when religious people do it.”

You mean, redistribution of my wealth, since I work and from what I earn I pay my taxes.

If haredim went to the army and worked, I wouldn’t be against providing them with benefits for large families. On the contrary.

As it is now, they simply don’t understand that there is a problem, and their rabbis -as much as they pass the time arguing the finer points of religion- don’t teach them to think.

All welfare dependency is repugnant, that of the Charedim is by far the least so and if you disagree I’ll take you on a trip round Britain that will soon change your mind. Charedi welfare sponges have far lower rates of drug use, crime, anti-social behaviour, severe family disfunction and all the other trappings of the welfare-underclass of which every western democracy has a share.

**
“As it is now, they simply don’t understand that there is a problem, and their rabbis -as much as they pass the time arguing the finer points of religion- don’t teach them to think.”

This argument is simply foolish. Yeshivot, unlike modern universities are places where people spend a lot of time learning language and reasoning skills and emerge, even the stupid ones, well tooled in the cultural heritage of their civilization. That they have evaded citizenship lessons and the study of how to mindlessly regurgitate “that’s Sexist!!!11!!” is no great loss.

“If haredim went to the army and worked, I wouldn’t be against providing them with benefits for large families. On the contrary.”

The demonisation of the National Religious, which is if anything worse, shows that this is un-mitigated bollocks.

This argument is simply foolish. Yeshivot, unlike modern universities are places where people spend a lot of time learning language and reasoning skills …

True. But how usefull is the langauge outside of the cultural millieu of the yeshiva? It is not even the vanacular of the Chareidei socisety.

As, for the reasoning skills: Talmud uses an array of reasoning skills that is completely incompatable within any real world experiences.

and emerge, even the stupid ones, well tooled in the cultural heritage of their civilization

but completely untooled to survive in a modern society. Completely unable to work in anything but the most menial job!

I’ve been fascinated by the world view of the anti-Zionist far right which does not accept the authority of the state of Israel. It will be interesting to see what happens if, given a choice between returning to the state of Israel or staying where they are as citizens of Palestine, which they’ll choose.

“The demonisation of the National Religious, which is if anything worse, shows that this is un-mitigated bollocks.”

Not only this is a completely unrelated argument, it is very stupid. How can you demonize a person who throws a nail-laced potatoe to our children in the name of religion? They are doing all the work.

One thing that troubles me is that all those who believe the settlers did commit a pogrom seem to agree that the problem are the settlers only, since the Israeli society, by and large, despises them as lawbreaking fanatics.

This may well be so, but unfortunately, in a democracy what counts is not what the society believes, but what the governernments it chooses do. And democratically elected Israeli governments have consistently thrown the full support of the State behind the settlers. Every time the settlers set up an outpost on private Palestinian land, the State rushes to provide it with electric power, clean water, phone lines and, most important of all, military protection. In fact, the Sassoon report found that even the trailers for the outposts were provided by the State.

Israel’s double talk is all the more evident when, at the same time that Olmert denounces the settlers, Ehud Barak approves a new civilian settlement in Maskiyot, the first one in a decade, where only military facilities had been allowed before.

The whole Israeli society is guilty for what the settlers do, because the governments it chooses not only fail to repress the lawbreakers, but also support them in myriad ways.

“Not only this is a completely unrelated argument, it is very stupid. How can you demonize a person who throws a nail-laced potatoe to our children in the name of religion? They are doing all the work.”

All National Religious are demonised depsite the fact that they are not a welfare burden (often because they are tarred with the brush of a few yobbos, as if I judged secular Jewry by Israel’s legions of drug addicts). Therefore I conclude that if Charedim all went to work tommorow you lot would just find some other reason to hate them. Charedim should stop their current lifestyle because it is immoral, but if they think it will stop the Left hating them they are wrong.
**
“True. But how usefull is the langauge outside of the cultural millieu of the yeshiva? It is not even the vanacular of the Chareidei socisety.

As, for the reasoning skills: Talmud uses an array of reasoning skills that is completely incompatable within any real world experiences.”

You appear to have a simplistic utilitarian, that is to say barbarian, view of education. I suggest you read Cardinal Newman’s writings on the subject.

“but completely untooled to survive in a modern society. Completely unable to work in anything but the most menial job!”
a) So, perhaps if Charedim were working menial jobs Israel wouldn’t have to import indentured servants from the far East?
b) What work skills does a degree in History give you? How about English Literature? PPE anyone? Honours in Greats? I think these have value, but not in the crude terms you specify. I’d certainly rather have someone who’d broken his teeth on pilpul (not a discipline I favour) than a Media Studies graduate.

Higher education is not a tool for economic development, it just isn’t, but that’s a different debate.

I have noticed that one feature of the way you deal with criticism is to deflect it by diverting the attention to something else. So whatever might be wrong with the behaviour of the settlers, you always find some other failing in some other set of people – what about that?

Not really the strategy of someone who is confident in his own convictions and can argue a case on its own merits.

“I’ve been fascinated by the world view of the anti-Zionist far right which does not accept the authority of the state of Israel. It will be interesting to see what happens if, given a choice between returning to the state of Israel or staying where they are as citizens of Palestine, which they’ll choose.”

Well just ask Rabbi Froman from Tekoa, who has said many many times that if Tekoa is handed to the Palestinians he would rather stay there, than move to Israel. He is not alone in his views.

You are right chorister, I am a cad.

Not a cad, someone whose arguments are weaker than the noise that surrounds them.

Yossi

I know of Rabbi Froman, and indeed, he is already trying to build peaceful co-existence with the Palestinian population, a far cry from the violent rioters of Hebron.

Re Rabbi Froman: That presupposes that the Palestinians would accept the settlelments inplace.

Hands up ayone who thinks that is likely!

What work skills does a degree in History give you? How about English Literature? PPE anyone? Honours in Greats?

That reminds me of the joke going around when I was an undergraduate. What did the Arts Grad say to the Science Grad?

“Would you like fries with that?”

But G, I didnot say anything about the logic and reasoning taught in the humanities. What I wrote was that the logic and reasoning used in the Talmud rested on a set of logic that is inconsistant with the Poperian logic of the modern world. As one example, it assumes that “Halacha me’Moshe Me’Sinai” is a conclusive argument. Or that memetic tradition is assumed to be correct, and logice and rational should be contorted to fitthe mimetic tradition.

Logic in the modern sense requires critical analysis of a given body of knowledge and the readiness to reject it.

Many graduate of a yeshiva are unable to think critically in that way.

Popper provides many things – like a reasonably amusing critique of Hegel and an amusingly speculative account of the pre-Socratics – but I wouldn’t credit him with creating or describing the logic of the modern world. Suffice to say many people who believe in the 13 principles also run successful businesses. Many people who say “Kal v’Chomer” whilst doing that weird thing with their thumb are a dab hand at form-filling. (Actually, with the exception of Bob Jones University and the like, religious Jews probably come closest to meeting the Renaissance ideal of a non-utilitarian education that actually provides the skills utilitarian education doesn’t).

“Many graduate of a yeshiva are unable to think critically in that way.”
No doubt. According to the CBI many 2:1 graduates are unable to produce a comprehensible memo.

However, as chorister pointed out, this is something of a distraction and seeing as I’m not, have never been and have no desire to become Charedi I’m not sure how we got on to it.

The point is about some violent yobbos, who may or may not have a legitimate property grievance, rioting and using racist slogans. Further, it is about the legitimacy of using this to tar 100,000s (or more if we’re dealing with all National Religious) of decent people in order to make it easier to ethnically cleanse them for a wholly chimerical peace.

I might regret it, but given the fairly reasonable post from Hasbara Buster, I will respond with a (hopefully fairly reasonable) argument. A beginning of a beautiful friendship it will not be, but perhaps of a civilised argument…

And democratically elected Israeli governments have consistently thrown the full support of the State behind the settlers. Every time the settlers set up an outpost on private Palestinian land, the State rushes to provide it with electric power, clean water, phone lines and, most important of all, military protection. In fact, the Sassoon report found that even the trailers for the outposts were provided by the State.

Yes, all this is true. Unlike you, I don’t say it triumphantly, I say this in deep anguish. For 35 years all Israeli governments either collaborated with settlers or closed their eyes to deliberate illegality. This is outrageous and it is absolutely right to condemn a long line of Israeli politicians for this state of affairs.

But all this begs the question, why is it that most of Israeli public is in favour of a two-state solution and heartedly dislikes the settlers (or at least their substantive lunatic fringes), while voting for governments which are at best disfunctional, at worst deceitful. I know what is your answer, but then you want to see Israel dismantled, so, frankly, it is difficult to take your views at face value. My own answer is to ask another question (a very Jewish trait): why is it that most of Palestinian public is in favour of a two-state solution and heartedly dislikes ther own lunatic fringes, while voting for governments which are at best disfunctional, at worst deceitful?

There are some here, like you, who indict Israelis but not Palestinians. Others, needless to say, do it the other way around. I indict neither. I see it as a frankly unexceptional behaviour of human beings in a conflict situation. I don’t believe that Israelis or Palestinians are somehow flawed, tainted by their ethnicity or history or culture. I do believe that they are pray to the full range of human emotions, not all nice, which occur in a bitter, existential conflict: fear, distrust, humiliation, self-pity, self righteousness, hate, disorientation… The challenge is not to “bust” this or that side or to score meaningless points but to bring the two sides together.

Agree with all the above, muffin. The challenge is to find a political modus vivendi that a majority can live with. The attempt to deliver pure justice for either side will invariably fail, and the result is endless war. I’ve often heard it said that ‘a two state solution can never bring peace’, assuming that as a one state solution will not be acceptable to Palestinians, they will continue their struggle until they have reclaimed the whole of Mandate Palestine. The corollary is that a one-state solution will never bring peace because Israelis will not abandon their right to national self-determination.

The difference is between those who want a political solution and those who want victory, those who criticise their own side and those who consider their own side beyond criticism.