Harry's Place

Finally there’s that lovely word again: disproportionate. Would you be satisfied if Israel responded by launching a barrage of more-or-less random rocket and mortar fire at Gaza. That, after all, would be a “proportionate” response.

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What else can Israel do since its decadent foot soldiers are afraid of their shadows? Israel is forced to drop bombs from the sky or use artillery from a safe distance because no Israeli soldier feels justified in losing his life in hand-to-hand combat. This is attributable to the erosion of the Zionist ideal and can only lead to a steady outflow of Israeli citizens to other, less ethnically-based nations.

Emigration from Israel exceeds immigration, report
Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa)
04/20/2007

Tel Aviv (dpa) – In Israel, the number of emigrants exceeded the number of immigrants for the first time in 20 years, the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot reported Friday.

Many emigrants were recent arrivals who wanted to leave Israel again, the report said. In 2007, 14,400 immigrants are expected in Israel while 20,000 people are expected to leave the country, according to the report based on figures for the first months of 2007.

The last time emigration exceeded immigration was in the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur War and in 1983 and 1984 when inflation was high.

Meanwhile the Maariv newspaper reported that approximately a quarter of the Israeli population was considering emigration.

Almost half of the country’s young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.

So, Penny, you’re advocating an all-out ground assault on Gaza?

But what if the british had put the irish under siege for a year and a half, denying the irish food water heat electricity medicine free movement. what if we had turned dublin into a sewer and then et the irish rot there whilst we collected taxes from them and then refused to distribute those revenues back to the irish.
what if no brit had died from the irish mortar attacks, what if those irish mortar attacks were basically cheap rockets with no guidance capability.

what if after that we decided to carpet bomb Cork.

Finally there’s that lovely word again: disproportionate. Would you be satisfied if Israel responded by launching a barrage of more-or-less random rocket and mortar fire at Gaza. That, after all, would be a “proportionate” response.

Disproportionate response is Israeli official policy. As commander Gadi Eisenkot stated to the newspaper Yediot Ahronot:

“We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases,” he said. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.”

The word “disproportionate” is used precisely because that’s how Israel itself describes its modus operandi.

Your getting angry at that “lovely word” is yet another example of Israel’s apologists’ habit of being more Catholic than the Israeli Pope.

Penny is apparently having fun pretending to be the Tokyo Rose of a blog comments box. Boring.

It always amuses me when the shrills for Hamas, let alone their paymasters in Tehran, scream and yell at Israeli actions in Gaza – especially after these same shrills have remained silent at the barrage of rockets aimed at Southern Cities in Israel.

These actions by my government could have been avoided, but instead Hamas have allowed rockets to hit Israeli towns constantly over the past few months. Well, enough is enough.

And whilst my thoughts are with those innocents who will undoubtedly be lost in these actions, my government must do its best to ensure that our citizens are protected.

Gene, in some respects you have cloned many things I say myself (of course I always put a bit more edge on it to get some knock-about)

While the media publishes “155 to 195 killed” Both Fox and AP report that 140 of the dead were Hamas security forces. We also have been told that all Hamas security barracks have been destroyed.

Ha Aretz reported

The first wave of air strikes was launched by a 60 warplanes which hit a total of 50 targets in one fell swoop. The IAF deployed approximately 100 bombs, with an estimated 95 percent of the ordnance reaching its intended target. Most of the casualties were Hamas operatives

The death toll proves the surgical nature of the strike and its success. if 140 out of 200 were Hamas then that’s a 70% success rate. Hamas are only perhaps 5% of Gaza so its demonstrable that Israel took as much care as they could when these barracks were cited amongst civilians.

Those injured, unfortunately, would have been civilians in the vicinity and not directly the targets.

What is VERY CLEAR from the pictures of Gaza that there are NO starving Gazans. They all look quite healthy. Gaza isn’t some desert wasteland but a place with reasonably comparable infrastructure compared with Beirut, downtown.

Proportionality in warfare is a matter of what fits the needs of legitimate military goals, not a comparison of body counts.

1) Hamas is attacking Israel.
2) Israel responds, finally, by attacking Hamas targets, which are located in civilian areas.
3) Is Hamas still capable of launching significant attacks?
4) If yes — Israel has not been disproportionate.

As regards Rayment, unlike Penny Pemberton, he is a commentator and opinion shaper in a major-circulation daily. His assertion that Israel has “slaughtered” 155 civilians is agitprop pure and simple. He cannot know that — no one can at this point, not even the Gazans, and the actual evidence points strongly against it. His own disproportionate response is both shameful in it’s own right and strong evidence that he can’t be trusted to write fairly when the subject involves Israel. If the Telegraph were an honest paper with pretensions of journalistic integrity, it would remove him.

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And whilst my thoughts are with those innocents who will undoubtedly be lost in these actions, my government must do its best to ensure that our citizens are protected.”

Maybe. On the other hand I think that Hamas seeks the disproportionate response to win the propoganda war…… I am not sure what the answer is, but be wary of that too.

What I advocate is unilateral withdrawal from the state of Israel, a thought that is currently being entertained by “half the young people” living there, according to the Maariv article cited above. It might take another 10 years, but eventually the Israel population will follow the example of the French in Algeria and go someplace where they are much more at home. The last time I noticed, there were no Arabs killing Jews in New York City. I do advocate, however, that all the Meier Kahane supporters et al in Israel stay there where they will get their just desserts.

But what if the british had put the irish under siege for a year and a half, denying the irish food water heat electricity medicine free movement. what if we had turned dublin into a sewer and then et the irish rot there whilst we collected taxes from them and then refused to distribute those revenues back to the irish.
what if no brit had died from the irish mortar attacks, what if those irish mortar attacks were basically cheap rockets with no guidance capability.

what if after that we decided to carpet bomb Cork.

Gerald, Gene has warned us about not getting too out of hand and ridiculous about this and here you are spouting on about some hypothetical stuff about the Irish conflict and haven’t even mentioned that the Irish had Godzilla on their side. What this has to do with the thread is somewhere in your imagination as it sure isn’t related to the thread.

and that it is responsible for “[s]laughtering 155 civilians.”

Missed this. LIE! Where do some of these people get their lies from? Both Sky and BBC just state a number of deaths and have never said “155 civilians”.

What else can Israel do since its decadent foot soldiers are afraid of their shadows? Israel is forced to drop bombs from the sky or use artillery from a safe distance because no Israeli soldier feels justified in losing his life in hand-to-hand combat

You said this on the other thread. You also said that they would rather stay at home playing with video games and masturbate.

Sounds like they were having a fun day off while Hamas weren’t.

While the Telegraph reports the “slaughter” of “155 civilians” — presumably because in Sean Rayment’s world, living in the Gaza Strip turns everybody automatically into a “civilian” (maybe except for Gilad Shalit?) — that’s what is reported elsewhere:

“Hamas estimated that at least 100 members of its security forces were killed, including police chief Tawfiq Jabber and the head of Hamas’s security and protection unit, along with at least 15 women and some children.”

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/12/27/africa/OUKWD-UK-PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL-VIOLENCE.php

“What I advocate is unilateral withdrawal from the state of Israel”
In other words “ethnic cleansing” of Jews?
Would you call, by the same logic, for a “unilateral withdrawal” of Palestinian Arabs from Israel, Gaza and the West bank to Arab countries? There are no Jews oppressing Arabs in Saudi Arabia, the last time I noticed.

HB, “disproportionate’ response ALSO means doing nothing when your enemy fires 100’s of rockets at you. In that sense Israel’s response to Hamas has been ‘disproportionately underwhelming’. Like Gene I have always said “Let Israel simply return each missile with a missile” 5,000 missiles later…………….

Israel’s response in Gaza has alreday been “disproportional” as they ONLY let off 100 bombs. 100 explosive, air-borne items.

Seems a fair market exchange. The signs are that the operation won’t stop, just enter different phases. Hamas leaders are a bit quiet. I think they are going to be silent for a long time.

I was travelling in the western Negev last week for an environmental conference and field trip, 2 days before the Hamas attack intensified. I was horrified to hear that since then farms and towns I had visited had been under heavy bombardment with casualties (and now fatalities). The Israelis had to respond. Assuming that the numbers given by the Hamas are accurate- that 40 installations were destroyed and 195 dead – then at each site about 5 people were killed. As Hamas clearly has enormous resources as evidenced by the scale of its attacks on Israel, it seems reasonable to suggest that they had significant numbers of personnel at each instillation. Assuming that no genuine evidence emerges for large numbers of civilian casualties, the number of dead would suggest it was indeed an accurate and limited strike at each site.

The last time I noticed, there were no Arabs killing Jews in New York City

Stupid Bitch!!!!

it is generally accepted that around 300 Jews were probably killed on 9/11 due to the high number employed in finance.

Let us not forget that 3,000 in total died and that New York is still a terrorist target.

Yesterday, hamas terrorists fired a rocket at Israel which landed in gaza itself, killing two palestinian girls aged 5 and 13. In Sean Rayment’s worldview, is that proportionate enough for the hamas goal of killing Israeli civilians? Did Rayment have anything to say about the reprehensible murder of innocent palestinian children? Or are the deaths considered ‘halal’ in his book because the children were killed by palestinian terrorists?

Another hamas terrorist who fired a rocket at Israel last week found that his rocket had a mind of its own, preferring a palestinian target. It backfired, injuring him severely – so severely, in fact, that the hospitals in gaza were unable to treat him (they expend their resources on weapons to kill Israelis instead of improving their health services for palestinians). What happened next is something that has happened many times before – the selfsame hamas terrorists who have made a career of killing Israelis asked Israel to treat a terrorist who was wounded in the course of his Israeli-killing career (a ‘work-accident’, in Israeli parlance). Israel, being Israel, the most moral nation on earth, took him in and is treating him in an Israeli hospital. Would Sean Rayment offer treatment to a terrorist who was injured while attempting to kill his British fellow-civilians? Rayment is an antisemite wearing the cloak of a ‘journalist’, and the Telegraph is dishonourable for employing him.

“We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases,” he said. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.”

In uber-modern lingo it’s called psyops when you try to demoralize the enemy using words.

Reminds me of how my country promised Iraq “shock and awe” in order to demoralize the Iraqi army but actually delivered the most invasion in the history of warfare.

By the way out psyops worked beautifully, large portions of the Iraqi army avoided fighting.

They say that Gaza has been under siege by the Israelis. How come they have managed to bring in thousands of missiles into Gaza. They obviously prefer missiles to food.

If there has been a siege they certainly know how to break it.

If Hamas could be broken it would be better for everyone – especially the Palestinians in Gaza.

“Here we go again” indeed. Gene – do you actually think that anything vaguely positive will come from todays events?

“What is VERY CLEAR from the pictures of Gaza that there are NO starving Gazans. They all look quite healthy. Gaza isn’t some desert wasteland but a place with reasonably comparable infrastructure compared with Beirut, downtown.”

This is pure ignorance. People in downtown Beirut don’t die in ‘tsunamis of raw sewage’ like those that afflict Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7354571.stm

hmm I seem to be missing a word. …the most surgical invasion…

Of course it doesn’t trouble Hamas to locate its installations in highly-populated areas.

The attack was on police stations in Gaza.

Police stations are usually located in highly-populated areas. In my neighborhood, I have one a few blocks away from my home. So do you in yours.

How perverse they are, these Hamas terrorists! They locate police stations just where the Americans, the Argentinians and everyone else in the world locate them, i.e. in civilian areas.

I think the Palestinians shouldn’t count on Israeli emigration bringing them victory. Certainly I wouldn’t raise a family in Israel to be targets..

So I think that after the peaceful people have left Israel, the Palestinians will be at the mercy of well armed people who are no longer constrained. Emigration is not their friend.

Despite the massive casualties, Hamas remained defiant, vowing revenge and calling on all other Palestinian factions to join in the fight.

“Today we are stronger then we’ve ever been,” one spokesperson for the group said at a press conference. “We won’t raise the white flag, we won’t give anything up, we won’t retreat.”

I bet the other factions are going to have trouble for the rest of the day, trying to keep from giggling. Who could love Hamas?

In uber-modern lingo it’s called psyops when you try to demoralize the enemy using words.

Which is exactly what Ahmadinejad does when he calls for the end of the Zionist regime. The difference is that Ahmadinejad has made it very clear the Iranians won’t take any part whatsoever in the end of said regime, while Eisenkot has admitted Israel will cause immense damage and destruction.

John Scholar: “Certainly I wouldn’t raise a family in Israel to be targets.”
Wow, how much of twisted thinking in a such short sentence.

Massacre: The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.

This massacre, and that is what it was, will lead to more terrorism. More rockets, not less. Actions should be judged on their consequences, or to be precise, the consequences expected by those carrying out the actions. The consequences of today are completely predictable. We’ve had decades of similar activities. Today will mark the start of yet another deterioration in the I/P conflict. Another step downwards into the sewer of human misery on both sides. Israel will never bomb the terrorists into submission. Israeli bombs help the terrorists. They feed off them.

Will,
your charge of ‘ignorance’ against Maven is a clear-cut case of what psychologists refer to as ‘mirror-imaging’. Be sure to know the facts before making unfounded accusations.

True, a few gazans did drown in sewage. Israel had sent them pipes galore to upgrade their sewage works. Gazan career terrorists know better what to do with sewage pipes, improvising kassam rockets out of them instead. So Israel naturally banned the export of pipes. Would you have behaved differently?

Further, the sewage works were held up by high earthen walls, which were gradually eroded by gazans themselves after Israel walked out of that strip. No reason was given as to why the gazans were removing the earth, bit by bit, but that caused the walls of the sewage works to collapse.

If Will is to be believed, everything that happens in gaza is Israel’s fault, even when it is self-inflicted. How very patronising of you to absolve the gazans of responsibility for the consequences of their own actions. I wonder how they feel about being infantilised by their ’supporters’.

Good points, Londoner.

I wonder how many of the “civilian” casualties we are going to hear about are actually Hamas or its operatives?

It cannot be easy to get any sort of objective reporting done if one is surrounded by such people:

http://www.hudsonny.org/2008/12/pa-tortures-journalists.php

TheIrie – I devoutly hope so. I hope that Israel doesn’t do the equivalent of the hokey-kokey but flattens Hamas once and for all.

And Hamas terrorists are perverse – in the extreme. I mean it’s hardly Monty Python wit, is it, to dress up as Gilad Shalit and celebtrate Hamas’ election into power by pretending to wail to a delighted audience of thousands that you are missing your mom and dad. Hamas is scarcely the epitome of humanitarianism, is it?

This comment on the Telegraph site says it all:

I have just listened to the Foreign Minister of Egypt, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, on television, which I watched from the living room of my home near Tel Aviv.

Mr. Aboul Gheit addressed his remarks to Hamas in Gaza: “The Israelis have been warning you that this was coming if you continue your cross border rocket attacks. Egypt has been imploring you to stop firing rockets into Israel, but you ignored our words. We have been urging you to renew the cease-fire with Israel, but you refused. You have brought this upon yourselves. You are responsible for what is happening to the people of Gaza.”

Curious that an Egyptian can see what this Guardianista exile cannot. Time for Gort, perhaps?

Good luck Israel.

Massacre: The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.

Given that they were not killed indiscriminately – in fact, the airstrikes were targeted specifically at Hamas installations – you’ve sort of undone your own argument.

I don’t think that Israel’s attempting to bomb the terrorists into submission. I think it’s aiming to bomb them back into a period of relative calm, as duing the ceasefire (which wasn’t really a cease fire at all, but at least entailed far less rocket attacks than we’ve seen over the recent days). Not a particularly ambitious goal perhaps, but I don’t think it’s likely they actually aim to remove Hamas from power through these attacks.

I seem to remember reading, earlier in the year, that a resident of Sderot had indeed constructed a rocket, complete with launcher, to be actioned at Gaza if a kassam ever came near his home.

The police were at a loss at first as to how to deal with him or it. I believe that they eventually confiscated it on the grounds that it would constitute a public danger to him and his neighbours if it misfired. Looking at Londoner’s post above, it seems that the Gaza police force are not possessed of such scruple.

From an editorial at Haaretz that was posted before the Israeli strike:

It cannot go on like this:

“Twenty meters is all that separated the landing site of a Qassam rocket and a child day-care center. Another rocket hit a house in the Western Negev Regional Council’s jurisdiction and the Home Front command ordered people to keep children inside protected areas at all times. In Sderot, a Qassam struck a public building and in Ashkelon a Grad missile landed in a residential neighborhood. In all, some 60 Qassam rockets were fired before dusk at Israel. No government, not even a government whose members are in the middle of an electoral campaign, can put up with such a situation for long. The Qassams raining from above are no natural calamity but the work of people. The key to changing this reality lies with the government, which is entrusted with protecting its citizens.”

http://tinyurl.com/6ureul

And again, at the Telegraph, Tim Butcher yet again proves beyond question that demonising the Jewish state is his real stock-in-trade:

Israel changed the rules forever with Gaza airstrike

http://tinyurl.com/7g9let

liamalpha, how do the Palestinians think of Israelis when they bomb buses coming home from temple, passover dinners for the elderly, pizza spots, cafes, bat mitzvas… as targets how else.

Well more than the just the Palestinians see the Israelis as just targets, all 200 million people surrounding them mostly.

http://www.mideastweb.org/onenarrative.htm

A large group of Arab intellectuals, reflecting the whole spectrum of Arab intelligentsia, was presented in a talk show program broadcast on one of the Arab satellite channels. The subject was the Arab Israeli conflict, Intifada and the suicide bombing. The guests included Marxist, Nasserist, Nationalist, Islamist, and right wing intellectuals. One, thus, should expect a variety of conflicting ideas, a heated debate and an exciting show. One should, at least, expect an exchange of strong arguments, a reflection of different sources and a presentation of multiple analyses. Different ideologies, paradigms and historical, economic, political and cultural grounding of the subject must be displayed in a show like this, with guests like those discussing an issue like that!

The surprise, which is not really surprising to an Arab audience, was the absolute consensus prevailing on the stage. Israel is evil, peace is a big deception, the Israelis are monsters, Israel lives on extending its borders, and those who favor peace are daydreamers, not to mention betrayers and collaborators. There were some differences though. For instance the Nasserist representative said a suicide bomb is more effective than an atomic bomb. The Marxist representative objected, not to say it is immoral, Heaven forbid, but rather to say it is an exaggeration. Of course an atomic bomb is more effective; we should be objective and scientific, the Marxist said. The Nasserist, however, challenged him by saying that he is not exaggerating anything. An atomic bomb could be expected, but no one can know exactly when and where the suicide bomber will blow him/herself, he proudly commented. When the question of the victims being civilians was raised, the guests all murmured and waved their hands. There is not a single Israeli civilian; all of them are a part of the military establishment. The Nationalist frankly said that a one-day old baby living in Tel Aviv is an occupier who is naturally a legitimate target of suicide bombing.[emphasis mine] …

This is pure ignorance. People in downtown Beirut don’t die in ‘tsunamis of raw sewage’ like those that afflict Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7354571.stm

I LOVE IT when I do a “Gotcha”. Bowen forgot the story his own BBC ME department told a year earlier. Bowen Fisked!!!

This is pure ignorance. People in downtown Beirut don’t die in ‘tsunamis of raw sewage’ like those that afflict Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7354571.stm

Follow the Independent link too! Johann Hari

http://theymadeitup.squarespace.com/the-latest-news-and-discussion/2008/5/1/bbcs-bowen-pumping-out-more-johann-hari.html

“Massacre: The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.”

A perfect description of what Britain did to numerous German cities in World War II (I see little difference in terms of morality between what the Nazis and their numerous allies did to Jews at Auschwitz and what the British did to Germans at Dresden). It’s also a pretty accurate description of what Britain has also been doing more recently in Serbia, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Poor Joshua, you must be a despondent man. Also did you know that the purpose of the SPCA is to slaughter kittens and puppies?

I see little difference in terms of morality between what the Nazis and their numerous allies did to Jews at Auschwitz and what the British did to Germans at Dresden

Really, you see no difference between the systematic murder by gas chamber over a million people in a single camp by their genocidal captors, and the deaths of around 30,000 by aerial bombing in furtherance of strategic war aims?

Bit of a dick really, aren’t you?

what if those irish mortar attacks were basically cheap rockets with no guidance capability.

Dear dear misguided Gerald. You really are quite a tit.

If Israel was lobbing ‘unguided’ rocketsinto Gaza, we would never hear the end of it.

And yet when Hamas launch unguided rockets at Israeli towns, the very randomness of these missiles somehow makes them less reprehensible.

Why?

Joshua Scholar wrote: “I think the Palestinians shouldn’t count on Israeli emigration bringing them victory. Certainly I wouldn’t raise a family in Israel to be targets.So I think that after the peaceful people have left Israel, the Palestinians will be at the mercy of well armed people who are no longer constrained. Emigration is not their friend.”

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I don’t know peaceful the people leaving Israel are. It is more a question of them not having the stomach for continuing the fight to preserve some kind of Biblical prophecy. Odd how this blog rails against religious fundamentalism on a continuous basis and accepts this proposition as legitimate: “God gave this land to the Jews”. If you replaced it with “God gave this land to the Christians”, you see how backwards it sounds.

At any rate, enjoy the Zionist “experiment” while it lasts since the political basis for it is evaporating before your eyes. The bombing of Gaza will only deepen the alienation of young American Jews, even beyond the point reported here:

Attachment to Israel Declining Among Young American Jews
Jewish Daily Forward
By Anthony Weiss
Wed. Sep 05, 2007

American Jews’ connection to Israel drops off with each subsequent generation, a new study suggests.

The authors of the study, sociologists Steven M. Cohen and Ari Kelman, found a consistent increase in alienation in each younger generation, with middle-aged Jews less attached to Israel than older Jews, and younger Jews less attached than middle-aged Jews.

“Every measure indicates a decline of attachment to Israel” from one generation to the next, Kelman, a sociologist at the University of California, Davis, told the Forward.

While the waning relationship between American Jews and Israel has been documented in past studies, the new survey, entitled “Beyond Distancing,” provides the most in-depth statistical picture to date of American Jewish attitudes toward Israel and the extent of the disaffection.

Cohen and Kelman used a broader variety of questions than past studies have to gauge attachment and alienation among different generations of Jews. They found that young adult Jews were less attached to Israel than any other living generation of Jewish adults. This low level of attachment was consistent across the political spectrum, independent of party affiliation or ideological attachment. The authors concluded that the changes are likely generational and permanent.

“Insofar as younger Jews are less attached to Israel,” the authors wrote, “the inevitable replacement of the older population with younger birth cohorts leads to a growing distancing in the population overall.”

Cohen and Kelman used a series of questions about Israel to gauge connection. Eighty percent of Jews over age 65 said that “caring about Israel is an important part of being Jewish,” compared with 72% of those 50-64 years old, 64% of those 35-49, and 60% of those under 35. From these responses, the authors compiled an index of overall attachment. They found that nearly 40% of Jews over 65 were found to be highly attached, compared with just over 20% of Jews under 35. The numbers are almost exactly reversed for low attachment, with more than 40% of Jews under 35 registering low attachment, compared with 20% of Jews over 65.

The one life-cycle event that Cohen and Kelman did point to as significant was intermarriage of Jews with non-Jews. Cohen, who has been an outspoken opponent of intermarriage, said that much of the rise in alienation and decline in attachment among younger generations could be accounted for by the rising levels of intermarriage.

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Any lesser response to the renewal of hostilities by Gaza would have been an inadmissible abdication of the government’s duty to protect the country from its enemies.

I also advocate all Hatians returning to Africa as their attempts at nation building have been even a greater failure compared to Israel. I’m an earnest, equal-opportunity, ethnic cleanser.

I am an Indian. I bear a very Israeli name, but I CONDEMN this GRUESOME ACT BY ISRAEL. These people (the Israelis) are becoming the root cause of so much terror all over the world. They, supported by the US – are the biggest terrorists in the world. And it surprises me that the whole world still supports Israel (and the US), even after what the US has been doing all over the world.

I CONDEMN ISRAEL.

I think the likes of HB, Penny and Iriot can be safely ignored. I would be worried if I agreed with them about anything and the market for their waffle is in sixth form common rooms and in HBs case the therapists chair.

But…. Sean Rayment writes for a national newspaper. His article/ blog entry is actually pretty astonishingly poor whatever your politics. Quite surprising to see so much poor work crammed into such a poor piece.

I am genuinely surprised to see a trained journalist accepting the early casualty figures and the make up of them. Particularly after the mass graves in Jenin etc etc

My fave quote tho:

“Imagine the international response if the UK committed such an act in today in Afghanistan.”

Given the various figures of the number of dead in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result (partly) of Britains actions (tho we like to just blame the yanks) this is a rather bizarre thing to say.

MattG

Penny it no more matters whether American Jews like Israel than whether you like America. You’re a foreigner to me and your opinion of my country and politics are beneath my notice. I live a democracy and my government represents IT’S people and no one else.

Interesting reactions from both UK & US Govt.

Brown says: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7801356.stm

White House Says: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473167,00.html

Both ask Israel to minimise casualties and BOTH blame Hamas for its continual rocket firing. It looks co-ordinated to me and I’ll bet Israel informed both as the planes were in the air.

Mr Brown said peaceful means were “the only way of reaching a lasting solution to the situation in Gaza” and called for support for the Palestinian government of Mahmoud Abbas.

“I am deeply concerned by continuing missile strikes from Gaza on Israel and by Israel’s response today,” he said.

“I call on Gazan militants to cease all rocket attacks on Israel immediately. These attacks are designed to cause random destruction and to undermine the prospects of peace talks led by President Abbas.

“I understand the Israeli government’s sense of obligation to its population. Israel needs to meet its humanitarian obligations, act in a way to further the long-term vision of a two-state solution, and do everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties.”

Israel PR has probably been top drawer,

Pathetic Cameron:

Mr Cameron told Sky News: “Obviously, the pictures on our television screens are pretty horrific and all civilian casualties are a matter of great regret, so I hope that both sides will show restraint.”

He said “everyone understands that Israel has a right to defend herself,” but insisted that violence would not lead to a resolution.

“In the end, the only progress will be political progress and a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. That is what’s desperately needed,” he said.

I once had great hope for Cameron. Looks like Brown is the true Zionist here.

There is no crime of Israels that people like Gene wont defend.
You are simply monsters without any decency.

Penny, business will have to suffer. You ain’t enticing Jews to your high rise. You’ll have to wrap up warm and do Times Square like the rest.

We’re simply monsters are we? I wounder how Britain would react if Germany started up the blitz again (let’s assume Germany didn’t have nuke, to make it parallel with the situation in Israel).

“I think the likes of HB, Penny and Iriot can be safely ignored”

Okay, add the Indian with the Israeli name (??) above…and while we are at it, Latchford, the real Benjamin, resistor and all the others who will be along shortly.

I just heard some daft bint interviewing the Israeli spokesperson on Bradio 4 and she kept going on about ‘disproportionate’ response.

I dont really know what a proportionate response is.

Perhaps the IDF should remove their uniforms, take over the roof of a house in Ashkelon and lob over some missiles into the general vicinity of Gaza and hope for the best.

Kill a few families on both sides of the border but will keep the BBC, Rayment and others happy..

Anyone got a number for the Israeli Embassy?

MattG

Joshua – You don’t justify a crime by pointing at another crime.

Gene – I’d like to ask you, again, whether you seriously think that there will be any positive outcomes from today’s events? Large numbers of Israelis were protesting against the prospect of this happening in Tel Aviv the other day. Are you such a blind nationalist that you can’t disagree with the Israeli government even when it carries out acts like this?

P.P. wrote: “The last time I noticed, there were no Arabs killing Jews in New York City. I do advocate, however, that all the Meier Kahane supporters et al in Israel stay there where they will get their just desserts.”

Uh, if memory serves, Kahane (scum that he was) was assassinated, quite possibly by El Sayyid Nosair (later convicted of involvement in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) in Manhattan, possibly somewhere near your upper east side digs. Rumor has it he was Egyptian, but I’m thinking he was Pennsylvania Dutch.

Perhaps you also failed to note that on the morning of March 1, 1994, a Lebanese livery cab driver named Rashid Baz opened fire on a van full of Hasidic Jewish boys on the Brooklyn Bridge, killing one and wounding several others. By the next evening, the perpetrator was in police custody, having confessed to the killing. First thought of as road rage, in December 2000, federal authorities changed their minds and announced that Baz’s actions were “the crimes of a terrorist.

Fewer anti-semites on the West Side, BTW. I guess they forgot to take the coke out of your Coca-Cola, doc.

i like penny. $5 says s/he doesn’t know any actual israelis, but enjoys making up scenarios from stuff s/he reads in the media.

TheIrie, responding to acts of war doesn’t require any more justification than the responsibility every government has to protect it’s citizens from harm.

TheIrie -

You say this won’t achieve anything in the long-term.

But what, in your opinion, should have been the Israeli response have been to the 100+ rockets that have landed on Israeli territory in the past week? (Beyond the consistent warnings that the Israeli government gave that further rocket attacks would lead to this kind of response)

“Penny, business will have to suffer. You ain’t enticing Jews to your high rise. You’ll have to wrap up warm and do Times Square like the rest.”

Heehee

MattG

Londoner:

Israel, being Israel, the most moral nation on earth

Don’t you realize that by making this statement you’re losing any right to complain about double standards? If you claim that Israel is the most moral nation, I have the right to check out whether it actually does meet higher moral standards than the rest of the world.

Your “most moral nation” is a nation whose soldiers shoot bound and blindfolded prisoners, and where the soldiers shoot at the house of the girl who filmed it all. See the details, complete with a picture of the girl’s window with a shoot hole courtesy of the most moral army in the world, here.

Ah, these antisemitic Japanese!!! They invented the camcorder so that the Jews could be filmed as they commit war crimes!!!

I am an Indian. I bear a very Israeli name, but I CONDEMN this GRUESOME ACT BY ISRAEL.

Surinder Cohen-Lipschitz is indeed an intriguing name.

These people (the Israelis)…. (Best to clarify, we thought you meant India.)

…. are becoming the root cause of so much terror all over the world. They, supported by the US – are the biggest terrorists in the world. And it surprises me that the whole world still supports Israel (and the US), even after what the US has been doing all over the world.

Given you prior lack of sophistication in debate I am sure you would be suprised to know that James Bond doesn’t actually exist as a real person.

I CONDEMN ISRAEL.

OUCH! That hurt!!!! Israel reels because Surinder Cohen-Lipschitz has spoken.

Next…….!

Jonathan Benjamin,

If all Israel has to worry about is your ‘condemnation’, then condemn away to your miserable heart’s content. You would have been taken more seriously had you previously condemned the relentless rocket attacks from hamas terrorists against Israeli civilians.

The way in which you couch your ‘condemnation’ suggests that in your worldview, all governments may protect their civilians, except the Israeli Government. This, BTW, is when your antisemitic fangs start to show. You expect Israel to uniquely accept terrorist attacks on her population without attempting to defend them. Dream on.

..so that the Jews could be filmed as they commit war crimes!!!

I suppose now that you’re properly outed as a Nazi, you don’t have pretend that it isn’t simply Jews you hate.

quotes fixed:
“…so that the Jews could be filmed as they commit war crimes!!!

I suppose now that you’re properly outed as a Nazi, you don’t have pretend that it isn’t simply Jews you hate.

“buster”, actually, you need to show that some other nation is _more_ moral for his statement to be false. not that i’m saying it isn’t, i just hate sloppy logic.

btw, thanks for employing the “look! i’m not an antisemite because i just made an absurd joke about antisemitism” a priori defense. that always works.

Penny,

So you would have a ground assault instead? And what would be your reply once that happened? Cowardly that they brought guns?

Would swords make it a fair fight? Your reply then would be they are cowardly and brutal. Your one of the infinite instigators on the web who post with nothing to say. You just want to create injury with words, without posting a solution to the underlying problems.

One day, you will pass. No one will miss you, and your only mark left will be your idiotic comment above.

Nice legacy.

Mark – work for a political solution, first and foremost by removing the siege on the Gaza strip, which was creating a humanitarian disaster, and which predates the latest round of rocket attacks. Having opened the borders, negotiate a solution with Hamas and Abbas. Talk to them – its the only way.

“disproportionate”

War is supposed to be disproportionate if one side is to win.
If you want armies to be balanced, play Command and Conquer or Starcraft.

Penny Pemberton Almost half of the country’s young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.

All they really have to do is sit back and wait for the last emigrant to turn out the light.

…negotiate a solution with Hamas and Abbas. Talk to them – its the only way.

TheIrie, admit it. You couldn’t type that with a straight face, it isn’t possible.

By which I mean that it isn’t possible to say “negotiate a solution with Hamas… Talk to them – it’s the only way” without giggling and breaking out in a silly grin. You’re a mischievous troll.

Josh – a very large portion, if not a majority, of Israelis favour exactly that.

TheIrie -

Perhaps talk is the best long-term solution. But I asked you, specifically, what should be done about the continuous stream of rockets that are falling on Israel.

I stress again that these rockets continued to fall despite several warnings.

theire, perhaps someone should jog your deliberately weak memory and remind you that israel withdrew unilaterally from gaza, before hamas was elected, and all the palesitnians had to do was NOT fire rockets at israel but they just couldn’t help themselves.

rocket fire predates “the siege”, thus “the siege” can’t be the reason for rocket fire.

i know, i know, you’ll find some other way to blame everything on israel, but please, at least stop pretending you’re talking to idiots who can’t remember 2 years back. it would also be nice if you could stop pretending to be some kind of even handed humanitarian rather than a one-sided bigot, but i know that’s too much to ask.

“You’re a foreigner to me and your opinion of my country and politics are beneath my notice.”!!!!
Josh Scholar
The obvious question is why you feel the need to sound off to people about this.

No, they’re in favor of peace which isn’t possible with Hamas and everyone knows that except you, apparently.

blahlblahblah, uhm there was a point made and it appears to be just out of your reach.

“rocket fire predates “the siege”, thus “the siege” can’t be the reason for rocket fire.”

If they could count to three in the correct order they wouldn’t be supporting Hamas in this.

So the Harry’s Place consensus (from Gene to Fabian and plenty more besides) is that Gaza deserves a ‘disproportionate’ response, otherwise, how else will the Israelis…er…win? Correct me if I’ve misrepresented the position.

Assuming I’ve got it right, in terms of the war games being played out in the imagination here, people believe that progress will be made once the degree of ‘disproportionality’ has been reached that is sufficient for…for…what? What are the objectives here? A Hamas surrender? Gazans to not vote for Hamas? Certainly one way to get people not to vote for a party is to bomb them – is that the theory and practice here ? Gazans to flee en masse into Egypt?

How many dead Gazans do you think that’ll be? Round it up to the nearest hundred. That wellknown rabid antisemitic organisation the BBC seems to have about 200 dead and 700 wounded so far. Is that enough, or does Harry’s Place think we need more?

Seems like some people got some toy planes for chanukah/chistmas this year. Mazel tov!

Mark – if I knew a way to stop the rockets, I’d tell you. I do know, however, what doesn’t work, and that is killing lots of civilians. Israel and its blind cheerleaders maybe able to justify the deaths to themselves, but they won’t convince others, least of all those who need to be convinced the most – the Palestinians.

I suppose I could turn the question around on you – what should the Palestinian’s do to stop the Israeli missiles? Now, take your answer (which is obvious) and turn it round (i.e. exchange “Israeli” for “Palestinian” and vice versa), and you’ve answered the question that you put to me.

Sean Rayment:

“Imagine the international response if the UK committed such an act in today in Afghanistan.”

Uh, how many Talibani, Al Qaeda or Iraqi rockets fell on London? Uh, how many civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are US, UK and Nato forces responsible for?

“Hamas is not without blame. The group’s leaders have cynically goaded the Israeli government with hundreds of rocket attacks in the past six weeks, 80 of which struck the Jewish state on Wednesday, knowing that the Israelis response would be extreme – but even they couldn’t have been prepared for slaughter on such a wholesale scale.”

Right. So Israel should only respond to Hamas aggression or de facto aggressive policy to the degree it allegedly ‘expects’.

what should the Palestinian’s do to stop the Israeli missiles?

Err… stop firing rockets?!??

They had several warnings, and yet chose not to heed them.

What does that tell you about Hamas?

Basic Palestinian Human Right – realisation of the sacred script of the holy Qur’an:

The right to worship and practise religion ritual is a basic human right issue of our modern society; and it is a honourable cause to allow anyone to reach their full potential of their religious realisation.

The holy Qur’an is the centre of existence for majority of Muslims in the world, accordingly daily routines, laws and interaction with the people surrounding are mastered. A jihad is a novel cause to reach the higher self of education, religious practice and spreading the word of Allah. Spreading jihad can be both peaceful and more forceful as the holy Qur’an also calls to Kill and be Killed when spreading the word of god to infidels, thus Kill and be Killed is an Islamic Human and Religious Right when following the holy script. Death is an Islamic choice and as such a religious realisation.

Palestinians elected democratically Hamas, which with it’s religious founder the slain Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin preach and glorify suicide bombings by becoming martyrs thus entering paradise. Islamic clerics teach this philosophy not only in Gaza, but as we have seen on TV, in Mosques, community centres all over the world and in Britain as well. We can see on TV young children in Gaza strapped with vest demo explosives put by their own parents at rallies against the West. Women, men and children when interviewed want to become martyrs; they show proudly on TV their ready vests. Death is their purpose of living.

Islamic clerics glorify entry to paradise by martyrdom, suicide bombing and advocating Kill and be Killed. Palestinians have been following meticulously this religious obligation. Palestinians voted in democratic elections their quest to Kill and be Killed; Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate and kill them: Palestinians kill and they are being killed and reaching heaven to harvest their promised 72 black-eyed virgins in realisation of the holy script of the Qur’an; Israelis are allowing Palestinians to gratify this democratic choice. Israelis are fulfilling basic Palestinian Religious Right to Kill and be Killed and as such are enabling them to reach their humanitarian and Islamic religious quest – realisation of the sacred script of the holy Qur’an.

Rosen, you’ve got it right. The Palestinians have gotten themselves in a bind. The mistake in your thinking is that you assume that Israelis should care about more than protecting their own lives when they can’t protect both themselves AND protect the Palestinians from their own failed society.

thanks for your input michael. we know you worry about israeli lives and were very concerned when the palestinians were firing hundreds of missiles and mortars into israeli towns. you wrote so eloquently about it in… ummm… hold on a moment…
oh wait, you don’t give a fuck. you only wake up when israel reponds, as it warned hamas for a week it was going to do.

I suppose now that you’re properly outed as a Nazi, you don’t have pretend that it isn’t simply Jews you hate.

My phrase was:

Ah, these antisemitic Japanese!!! They invented the camcorder so that the Jews could be filmed as they commit war crimes!!!

That was irony, a rhetorical device. But then I’ve given up on expecting any degree of sophistication from Jewish commenters here.

Pardon — Zionist.

The Hasbara Buster,

please do not make the error of projecting onto others your puerile worldview. Israel has some immoral soldiers in her army, just as every army in the world has immoral soldiers. What distinguishes Israel from her opponents in this war is that Israel operates under the rule of law, and those soldiers who brake the rules are accountable to a court of law.

In contrast, her opponents are actively encouraged by their leaders to fire indiscriminately into civilian homes, shoot the head of a 10-month-old baby (her name, BTW, was Shalhevet Pass), smash the skulls of two 10-year-olds in a cave in Tekoa who were playing truant from school, enter a Kibbutz and shoot two young boys under five at point blank range, mutilate the bodies of two soldiers after they were beaten into a pulp (with a barbaric crowd of men and women cutting up the pulped bodies with knives)… There are plenty more such stories should you need further examples.

My point remains – how many countries do you know of (amongst Israel’s neighbours or from further afield) who continue to supply food and fuel and basic necessities to a neighbour hell-bent on killing its citizens, and then treating the terrorists injured in the course of attempting to kill its own citizens?

But of course, Hasbara Buster, you won’t be able to come up with a single example, because you’ve been busted.

People in downtown Beirut don’t die in ‘tsunamis of raw sewage’ like those that afflict Gaza.

I guess it’s just a matter of priorities, eh Will?

Hi Michael,

what kind of military action, exactly, may the Jewish state take to defend its citizens? Some? Any? None?

I was under the impression you thought the Jewish state of Israel is itself a war crime, and any military measure it takes to defend or preserve itself is merely a greater war crime.

And thank for your advice: I am sure you mean the best for the Jewish state and that it should pay you some mind for that reason.

So the Harry’s Place consensus (from Gene to Fabian and plenty more besides) is that Gaza deserves a ‘disproportionate’ response, otherwise, how else will the Israelis…er…win? Correct me if I’ve misrepresented the position.

No, Michael. I’m wondering what, for example, you would consider a proportionate Israeli response.

Pathetic Gene, once more minimizing gross human rights violations.

And yes you idiots Israel firing 5000 crude homemade rockets would acutally be 50 times better, here is WHY.

5000 crude rockets do not hold a candle to 100 500Kg (or whatever) bombs, the gross tonnage in TNT equivalent explosion makes it a moot point.

5000 crude rockets whose aiming mechanism give them a 0.1% chance of hitting any human target whatsoever, leaving only 5 rockets really.

So what you have is what is to be expected: 150 killed, 250 injured (mostly civilians) that will likely die within the week since the blockade has devastated hospital supplies, and all for what? 5 Israelis? An Israeili is not worth 100 palestinians, that is obscene Nazi thinking.

The world needs to put preassure on Israel to not repeat this barbarity.

That was irony, a rhetorical device. But then I’ve given up on expecting any degree of sophistication from Jewish commenters here.

Pardon — Zionist.

Are you kidding? We Jews (pardon, Zionists) are the nonpareil masters of irony. It’s you who deploys it like a sledgehammer.

According to the Telegraph:

Every known police station, arms store and headquarters building in Gaza, which has been ruled by Hamas since June 2007, was attacked, regardless of whether they were occupied. A passing out ceremony for new police officers was struck, killing around 40 cadets.

Now I take on board the calls for a response to Hamas atrocities (I really do) but the idea that you stop violence by destroying law and order takes some getting used to. Is this really the best way to peace?

Sorry – link for above quote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/3982001/Israels-heaviest-ever-air-strikes-on-Gaza-strip-kill-hundreds.html

Gene – can I make a suggestion?

On future posts about Israel, could we have a secondary comment thread, reserved for the loons, which can safely be ignored?

Mark sure, this is that thread. The only way to enforce discipline is to make it impossible to post to that other Platonic ideal thread.

The Hasbara Buster you fucking moron answer this:

From the BBC:

“Argentina marks 1994 bomb attack” (Note: it’s 15 years and counting)

“Argentines have been marking the anniversary of the 1994 bombing of a Jewish centre in Buenos Aires that left 85 people dead and about 300 injured.

Thousands of mourners gathered to honour the dead and called once again for investigations to be stepped up and those responsible brought to justice.

Nobody has ever been convicted, but the current government has said it is determined to secure justice.

A prosecutor last year blamed Hezbollah for the blast, which the group denied.

A siren sounded at the precise time the bomb exploded at 0953 (1253 GMT).

People lit candles, laid roses and held aloft photographs of the victims as the names of the 85 dead were read out.

The blast on 18 July 1994 reduced the seven-storey Jewish-Argentine Mutual Association (AMIA) community centre in Buenos Aires to rubble.

The scale of death and destruction left Argentina’s 200,000-strong Jewish community, Latin America’s largest, in shock.

“We were looking for justice but we found impunity,” read a large banner at Tuesday’s ceremony.

Luis Czyczewsky, whose daughter died in the blast, called for more to be done – not only for the crime to be solved but for Argentina to take a stronger stance against terrorism.

“Today we are left with a sense of impotence, with our anger,” he told the crowd.

“Once again, impunity is winning the battle.”

Unsolved

Over the years, the case has been marked by rumours of cover-ups and accusations of incompetence but little in the way of hard evidence.

Minor figures, including a policeman who sold the van used in the attack have been named, but no-one has been convicted.

Many accused previous governments of doing too little to find the perpetrators. “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5190892.stm

The current administration of President Nestor Kirchner has expressed a firm desire to produce results but so far there has been little obvious progress, says the BBC’s South America correspondent Daniel Schweimler.

Mr Kirchner’s cabinet chief, Alberto Fernandez, said that the courts would do all they could to find the attackers.

Members of the US-based World Jewish Congress (WJC) were to meet the president after the commemorations to add their voices to calls for the authorities to do more.

Local Jewish groups have long said the bombing bore the hallmarks of Iranian-backed Islamic militants.

Iran has repeatedly and vehemently denied any involvement in the attack.

Last November, an Argentine prosecutor said a member of the Islamic militant group, Hezbollah, was behind the attack and had been identified in a joint effort by Argentine intelligence and the FBI.

But Hezbollah said that the man, Ibrahim Hussein Berro, had died in southern Lebanon while fighting Israel.

The 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, which killed 29 people, also remains unsolved.”

Don’t talk to me about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, fuck head, talk about Argentinean attacks on Jews.

This is what our Argentean pogromchik “Hasbara Buster” keeps not mentioning. He doesn’t want to talk about the Jew hatred in his own country, a hatred in which he participates.

So the Harry’s Place consensus (from Gene to Fabian and plenty more besides) is that Gaza deserves a ‘disproportionate’ response, otherwise, how else will the Israelis…er…win? Correct me if I’ve misrepresented the position.

Israel has always had a ‘disproportional response’. It was also called “No Response!”. What they did was add up all the little responses they should have given, warned Hamas that they would get delivered, Had Egypt warn Hamas that they were going to get a response – and Blow Me, they got one!

Hamas were fooled by these previous ‘disproportional responses’.

What are the objectives here? A Hamas surrender?
Yes, let them do the decent thing by the people they say they care for (not) and declare an immediate surrender and hand Gaza over to Fatah.

Gazans to not vote for Hamas?

Recent polls say they wouldn’t vote Hamas again.

Certainly one way to get people not to vote for a party is to bomb them – is that the theory and practice here ?

Yes, bomb the party of terrorists – not the civilians, as Israel has done.

How many dead Gazans do you think that’ll be? Round it up to the nearest hundred. That wellknown rabid antisemitic organisation the BBC seems to have about 200 dead and 700 wounded so far. Is that enough, or does Harry’s Place think we need more?

How many are Hamas Terrorists and how many are innocent civilians, or doesn’t it matter to you or the BBC?

Seems like some people got some toy planes for chanukah/chistmas this year. Mazel tov!

I got the anniversary special DVD of “Raid On Entebbe” with Dolby surround sound and upscaled HD.

Londoner:

What distinguishes Israel from her opponents in this war is that Israel operates under the rule of law, and those soldiers who brake the rules are accountable to a court of law.

This is pure crap; by that token, the Russian Empire was very moral, since the perpetrators of the Kishinev pogrom were prosecuted!

The commander who ordered a bound and blindfold Palestinian to be shot was transfered to command the armored branch at the training center for warfare on land near Ashkelon. I.e., the Israeli war criminal is now training other Israeli soldiers. See the details, complete with the relevant links to the Israeli press, here.

And not a single one of the Israeli soldiers who shot at the house of the Palestinian girl who filmed the incident has been investigated.

So please give me a break.

In all seriousness, could someone who believes the response was ‘dispreportionate’ tell me what an acceptabpe *proportional* response would be. In clear terms, what response in kind would you have deemed proportionalte and have had your support?

Gene, the argument ‘what else can we do?’ comes in the context of a never-ending ‘peace process’ that is a disguise for continued settlement and land-grab. In answer to ‘What else can we do?’ is thus for example, stop settlements, negotiate with whoever the Palestinians elect, and discuss the two laws of ‘return’ the one that enables me to ‘return’ to Israel and the other that denies that right to those who were evicted or who fled.

But, Gene, if you’re honest you know that there are several narratives running through this stage of the saga, one of which is the ‘greater israel’ one. Either you don’t know, or you don’t care to know whether this is in the ascendancy in Israel or not. For example, I’d like to know to what extent are the Greater Israel boys planning land grabs in Gaza? To what extent is there any co-operation going on between such views from civilian politicians and others in the military. You must know, as an avid Israel watcher, that what we see and hear is at best only half the story. There are always political considerations at play way beyond who killed who last week, and who killed who this week. Why don’t you put them on the table too, amongst your teeterings and tiptoeings around ‘disproportionality’.

In the meantime, you might like to speculate about how many Gazan deaths will be sufficient for Israel to achieve its aims – whatever those aims are…I guess you won’t want to speculate at all, otherwise you’d've done so already. No worries.

Those who ask me to count Israeli deaths, I’ll just say that I don’t think I’ve ever seen posted at HP, the death tallies for both sides over any given period. I’ve had this conversation before here. Why not do a peacenikishe thing and just post the deaths of both sides. Then I’ll take your question seriously. For example, an interesting stat would be how many Gazans were killed during the ‘ceasefire’?

M Rosen

“So the Harry’s Place consensus (from Gene to Fabian and plenty more besides) is that Gaza deserves a ‘disproportionate’ response, otherwise, how else will the Israelis…er…win? Correct me if I’ve misrepresented the position. ”

Glad to correct you; the question most have actually been asking is what response the critics would consider ‘proportionate’.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

You are of course free to make up your own ‘consensus’ though.

But that makes you an idiot.

Next….

Mark T
27 December 2008, 6:48 pm

“Gene – can I make a suggestion?

On future posts about Israel, could we have a secondary comment thread, reserved for the loons, which can safely be ignored?”

I understand the sentiment but I dont really agree.

Much as I hate to share anything (even indeed a comments thread) with the likes of HB, Iriot and now, the rather weird but imaginative Michael Rosen, its actually rather good that they are here.

Read this comments thread, and indeed the one on the blog piece at the Telegraph that this thread referres to.

Im quite happy for the likes of HB, Rosen, Iriot etc to have their own little consensus.

MattG

“In all seriousness, could someone who believes the response was ‘dispreportionate’ tell me what an acceptabpe *proportional* response would be. In clear terms, what response in kind would you have deemed proportionalte and have had your support?”

Eh, read my post above.

That said it does not have to be the same obviously just not something that kills 50-100 times as many people for starters, are you guys content with at least having one palestinian life being 10% of an Israeli? could we start with that at least?

[me]>> “We’re simply monsters are we? I wounder how Britain would react if Germany started up the blitz again (let’s assume Germany didn’t have nuke, to make it parallel with the situation in Israel).”

[Very Irie]>>“Joshua – You don’t justify a crime by pointing at another crime.”

Wait, I made an analogy between the 100 rockets shot into Israel in the last week and the Blitz – did the TheIrie just call Britain’s response a crime? So if Germany kept attacking Britain that was no justification for war?

Maven, your ‘no response’ is continued land grab in the West Bank, and a blockade round Gaza, and a clear lack of will to help create a Palestinian state. The political is always intertwined with the military.

Gerald you are talking absolute nonsense! I do not remember the IRA having a covenant that called for the destruction of the United Kingdom and the for the forcible removal of the population to make way for an Irish “caliphate”. Comparisons such as yours are odious and smack of good old anti-Semitism. Once again despite the fact that the non-innocent victims are armed members of Hamas who have decided to fight by the sword and who therefore deserve no pity if they die by that sword so far as you are concerned Israel is not allowed to defend itself from existential threats. As for being evil what do you call situating bomb making factories and kassam and grad launching sites in the middle of densely populated civilian areas?

“For example, I’d like to know to what extent are the Greater Israel boys planning land grabs in Gaza?”

Michael’s confusing composing poetry with reality, again.

The IDF is very unlikely to make even a land incursion into Gaza, again. It is too likely to lead to high Israeli casualties. It is much cheaper in personnel and materiel to strike targets from the air.

But, if she does, I hope she does so with minimal casualties to herself, and, pretty much, maximum casualties to the enemy.

’sorry Israel is again failing to meet your requirements of perfect justice and ‘proportionality’ to attacks on her citizens, alone of all nations and states in the world.

We know you are filled with nothing but love, kindness and good intentions towards her.

Should read ‘I’ll start things off’ of course.

I realise Im dealing with a great writer of kids books here.

But what an unpleasant little man you are nonetheless.

MattG

An Israeili is not worth 100 palestinians, that is obscene Nazi thinking.

An Israeli is worth far more than a Palestinian!

I know this for a fact.

The fact being that whenver a prisoner swap is suggested its ALWAYS at leat 100 Palestinians for one Israeli. Sometimes it much more.

Michael Rosen, Israelis gave up on greater Israel long ago and would trade for peace but no one will offer peace – they know it, why haven’t you faced reality? The only reason the right has any traction at all in Israel is that it is so clear that there is no one to make peace with and only the right completely faces that fact.

Israel gave back Gaza and got rocket attacks for thanks. Imagine how much good it will do to give back more land and cede it as a stage for more attacks on Israel.

I’ll ban anyone who posts further comments using the name of another commenter.

You mean other than their screen name which in many cases IS their name.

Penny Pembertonbs anti semitic rant has been deleted – thus unfortunately so has my response been, thus my comment above is redundant.

Pity, I thought the Pemberton rant should have remained. Would have put the Rosen’s of this world in a bit of a pickle.

MattG

I trust you can track down “Penny Pemberton’s” ISP and have her/him/it prosecuted for hate crimes.

Here is Gene’s comment:

“Finally there’s that lovely word again: disproportionate. Would you be satisfied if Israel responded by launching a barrage of more-or-less random rocket and mortar fire at neighborhoods in Gaza. That, after all, would be a “proportionate” response.”

He chose to express himself ironically. This has the advantage of not being a ’straight’ request. However, what irony asks its readers to do, is deduce a ’straight’ ie non-ironic meaning. The non-ironic meaning I deduced was ‘the Israelis are doing the proportionate thing in response to what Hamas have done.’

Elswhere people have said in effect, that if others want to say what Israel has done is ‘disproportionate’ then so be it, because such disproportionality is what will win us the next objective.

I can’t squeeze a bus ticket between what Gene is saying and what others on the pro-Israel side are saying.

I’ve answered what I think would be a reasonable first base kind of response that Israel could do, but it’s not to do with bombing. The archair bombers here have now had several long years of practising flying their planes round their living rooms (Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and now Gaza) so I detect a certain facility at work.

I appreciate Graham’s comment which points out that bombing your enemy’s police stations is funny way to make peace. But then, is there anyone here who seriously believes that the Israeli regime wants peace?!?!

Michael Rosen -

Israel withdrew from Gaza. I fail to understand how your comments about ‘land grabs’ and ‘greater Israel’ square with this fact – beyond a diversionary tactic. I trust that was not your intention.

Equally, the blockade around Gaza, however objectionable you consider it to be, was a direct response to rocket attacks.

I would finally add that neither the Israeli blockade, nor the wait on the “Right of Return”, nor the continued settlement in the West Bank, are a) a justification for rocket attacks, or b) the real reason for the rocket attacks.

I think you know what the real reason is.

There is no justification.

I thought Pemberton (real or otherwise) has posted much worse?

But I can understand the need for moderation.

MattG

Josh Scholar

“We’re simply monsters are we? I wounder how Britain would react if Germany started up the blitz again (let’s assume Germany didn’t have nuke, to make it parallel with the situation in Israel).”

Riiight .. so Hamas launching dud rockets which havent killed anyone is analgous to the Blitz is it? Correct me of Im wrong but people actually died in the Blitz

And Israel is occupying Palestinian land not vice versa. So how on earth are the Israelis “the British” defending themselves against “German” invaders ?

Now I take on board the calls for a response to Hamas atrocities (I really do) but the idea that you stop violence by destroying law and order takes some getting used to. Is this really the best way to peace?

Graham, I don’t know the precise relationship of the Hamas police to “law and order,” but I suspect it’s rather tenuous at best. I also suspect there’s not much of a barrier between the Hamas police and the Hamas operations against Israel.

“An Israeli is worth far more than a Palestinian!

I know this for a fact.

The fact being that whenver a prisoner swap is suggested its ALWAYS at leat 100 Palestinians for one Israeli. Sometimes it much more.”

You are not comparing lives, but jail sentences. The true answer is 1:1 that is the leftwing answer as well. That is always the thing about I/P. One side claims to not target civies, and the other claims they do, yet it is the former who always kills many many more. That is why the good people in the world are crying foul, and even the bad people (Bush) are mildly calling for restraint, at this rate of manslaughter…

If the comments get ‘hysterical’, eh? An antisemitic tosser like Rayment shoots his mouth off, but you’ll shut us up if we complain?

I am still confused about this – what is Israel supposed to do to persuade Hamas not to attack them? Would someone like to enlighten me?

Mrs Ben

He chose to express himself ironically. This has the advantage of not being a ’straight’ request. However, what irony asks its readers to do, is deduce a ’straight’ ie non-ironic meaning. The non-ironic meaning I deduced was ‘the Israelis are doing the proportionate thing in response to what Hamas have done.’

Wrong again, Michael. I’m saying that in the real world, there’s no such thing as a perfectly proportionate response– especially when it comes to an outfit like Hamas.

The increasingly moronic Rosen

“I appreciate Graham’s comment which points out that bombing your enemy’s police stations is funny way to make peace.”

Oh Shit. And there was me thinking that the Israelis had just bombed schools and social clubs and massacred civilians.

Rosen again

“But then, is there anyone here who seriously believes that the Israeli regime wants peace?!?!”

Yes. I do.

You really are an idiot arent you. Im on this thread because I beleive that the Sean Rayment piece (remember that – have you actually read it?) was poor and ill conceived.

Quite why the f**k you are here is beyond me.

To tell everyone else what they believe…..I think. But thats a best guess.

MattG

Hasbara has been busted for good! He/she could not name a single example, substituting evasive measures instead. I asked a simple question: how many countries continue to supply food and fuel to a neighbour hell-bent on killing its citizens, and then hospitalise the terrorists injured in the course of attempting to kill its own citizens? One such gazan, BTW, came back for follow-up hospital treatment with a suicide belt strapped to her body. This is called ‘biting the hand that seeks to cure you’. Got that Hasbara? Do you expect any other country to continue hospitalising such ingrates? Israel continues to take security risks, and you while away your boredom by attacking her. End of story.

Rosen, you fool. Israel is a democracy. The “regime” wants what the public demands.

By that token, the Palestinians could have easily achieved any non-monstrous aim decades ago, the way you win in/against/with any democracy, but convincing the voting public to be on their side. They did not do this because they’re too damn bigoted to think of the Israeli voting population as human beings and because they wouldn’t give up completely monstrous aims.

You on the other hand should be able to understand the dynamics of a democracy, to understand the thinking of its citizens and to identify with their humanity. You don’t. You talk about “the regime” and project irrationally – what’s you’re excuse?

sigh, “your”

michael, i find it pretty hypocritical of someone who does not support a two state solution to say that israel should negotiate for such a solution.
it’s pretty obvious that all you’re saying is that israel may not defend itself. all the time “wondering” about a “greater israel” idology that has been abandoned for decades by all but the very extreme of the far right, in a pretty transparent attempt to vilify while pretending to look for a fair solution.

who do you think you’re fooling?

is there anyone here who seriously believes that michael rosen wants peace?!?! (”peace” not being “the destruction of israel”).

I know that Israel has targeted Hamas moderates in the past for assassination. Kill the moderates in order to give the hawks more power with the “I told you so”.

“Disproportional”

We are actually having a debate based on this word and its value in some physical manifestation and NONE of us can define it (not even me). It has no static definition. It is a dynamic value.

We are actually discusssing the word “proportion” and its a word that implies NOT equality but some value of erquivalence based on a complex formula of things.

If I earn £100,000 and give £100 pounds to charity then I have given less “proportionally” than someone who earns £10,000 and gives £100.

Proportionality MUST be defined as a capacity or measure based on your potential to do or act.

“Proportionality” perhaps has a moral mediator. While I can give/do “X”, is it moral to provide “X” in response to stimulus “Y”.

When someone says “Your reponse isn’t proportional” they may be making a moral judgement between the capabilities of the person(s) providing stimulant “Y” versus the capabilities of the responder doing “X”.

For example “Yes they may have fired 5,000 roickets but they hardly killed many people” is what I get on messageboards.

Suppose Hamas were operating to 80% capacity to deliver their rockets and Israel at only 5% of capacity to respond. And, we add the moral factor that Hamas had no inhibitions about firing rockets – whereas Israel had many moral inhibitions about doing it – then I could argue that Israel’s response is STILL “disproportional” by being measured versus what it could deliver if it used the same moral formula as Hamas. Its UNDER proportional. The word for that is still “Disproportional”

Michael Rosen

“What are the objectives here? A Hamas surrender? Gazans to not vote for Hamas? Certainly one way to get people not to vote for a party is to bomb them – is that the theory and practice here ? Gazans to flee en masse into Egypt?”

I’ll disclose you our biggest military secret: The objective of this action to force Hamas stop launching rockets on Israel. But please don’t tell this anybody!

I understand from your comment that even men of letters like yourself can be king sized jerks blinded by hatred.

Mrs Ben -

The consensus seems to be -

A) Soak up the rocket attacks. Grin and bear it, old chap!

B) Open the borders to Gaza. I’m sure Hamas won’t use the opportunity to bring in shedloads of weaponry – after all, they haven’t done it before!

C) Hamas are reasonable, peaceful chaps who only really want to live in harmony with the Zionist entity. (Apparently they’ve got some kind of charter which says the complete opposite, but I’m sure it’s a bit of an in-joke!). They’ve just been driven to distraction by the plight of their fellow citizens – so much so that when they’re not busy using them as human shields they can’t physically stop themselves from firing rockets! Those funny foreigners, honestly!

D) If Palestinians get the right of return, everything will be fine and dandy!

Josh

I think Rosen came on here for a bit of Zionist baiting, but then realised he is not corresponding with 5 year olds or swooning Islington Beeboids.

MattG

Michael Rosen, Israelis gave up on greater Israel long ago and would trade for peace but no one will offer peace

Again, and this time around I’d really like to have an answer:

If Israel has given up on greater Israel and wants to trade land for peace — why did it approve last July a new civilian settlement in Maskiyot, in the Jordan valley? Why doesn’t it arrest the settlers who break the law in Hebron, Kiryat Arba, Susia, Maon, while keeping the military force needed for its defense? Why does it provide services to the criminal settlers to the point that illegal outposts are even listed in the phone book?

I know that Israel has targeted Hamas moderates in the past for assassination.

Yasin was a terrorist leader and his assassination was NOT extra-judicial as Jack Straw said but entirely legal under Conventions that define conduct in War.

Jack Straw, as one of the allies, was OK about assassinating Saddam Hussein to prevent a Gulf War.

Joined by the screeching wannabe Obergruppenfuehrer, who has never been to the ME but knows that a good Jew is a dead Jew.

as for the police station, etc that documentary last year (I think it was C4) showed how Hamas used “policing” to enforce their rule on Gazans (occasionally beating them in the streets) and attacking any dissenters

it is my understanding that Hamas control all of the organs of the State in Gaza.

What I advocate is unilateral withdrawal from the state of Israel, a thought that is currently being entertained by “half the young people” living there, according to the Maariv article cited above. It might take another 10 years, but eventually the Israel population will follow the example of the French in Algeria and go someplace where they are much more at home

Straightforward pathological antisemitism, right out of the Stuermer. You are one sick loser.

Maven, the ghastly Straw is still strutting around like a student union president. What he dribbles out is sheer nonsense.

“Here we go again” indeed. Gene – do you actually think that anything vaguely positive will come from todays events?

Two things:
1. Lots of dead Nazi terrorists.
2. Lots of angery antisemitic tossers like you.

What the hell would be “proportionate”?

One poorly guided rocket from Israel into Gaza for each one recieved, is what I say.

Hamas launches its rockets and mortars, and hides its weapons and its personnel in civilian areas and civilian dress. Is it your claim, Graham and Michael, that they would feel honour-bound not to put them in their own “police stations”?

The Telegraph (the same Telegraph that employs Sean Rayment and gives him blog privileges) says “Every known police station, arms store and headquarters building in Gaza…” was attacked. The BBC, that hotbed of even-handedness, has this: “Hamas said all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed.” That’s not quite the same thing, but it is a hint at how Hamas intentionally blurs the lines. For once the BBC gets closer the truth than the competition does.

That said it does not have to be the same obviously just not something that kills 50-100 times as many people for starters, are you guys content with at least having one palestinian life being 10% of an Israeli? could we start with that at least?

Neither we, nor thankfully Israel’s generals, give a toss what exchange rate jerks like you would prefer.

I am not talking about Yassin but ironically the Mossad target: (whose agents were swapped for Yassin) Khaled Mashaal.

Bibbi thinks that the best way to stir the hornet’s nest is to kill the moderates, I agree.

More Palestinians than Israelis are being killed.

Israelis are better at killing Palestinians than Palestinians are at killing as many Israelis they would like.

This is an evil that cannot be countenanced. This alone marks Israel, the Jewish state, Zionism etc as a if not the driving force for evil in the world today.

I don’t have any real interest in discussing “proportionalety” – I’ll leave Zionist military strategy up to the blood-soaked generals and the moronic mooncalves of HP. What does interest me is the response from the Palestinian resistance. One hopes it might inspire some kind of unity in the nation. Gazans are certainly going to need assistance now more than ever.

“Neither we, nor thankfully Israel’s generals, give a toss what exchange rate jerks like you would prefer.”

Of course they care, if not I would not see the same yahoos getting airtime in CNN International. Nor would have gene bothered to write a post minimizing Israeili atrocities. Notice that you do not care about HR but about PR.

“I don’t have any real interest in discussing “proportionalety” “

I suspect that goes for most who complain about “disproportionality”. It’s just an emotive word. What they’re opposed to is *any* response by Israel – proportional or not. Am I wrong?

The Burston piece Gene links to above (if anyone is still actually reading the post before commenting) is actually rather good.

One point I disagree with though, he says:

“Nothing has been more instrumental in harming the cause of Palestinian independence than Hamas, with its brutal take-over of Gaza in a war with brother Palestinians, and its frank efforts to build a large-scale regular army force in the Strip.”

I would venture that the ’support’ of the Palestinian cause of the likes of Rosen, Pemberton, Iriot, HB has not been altogether helpful to the cause of Palestinian Independence.

MattG

I am not talking about Yassin but ironically the Mossad target: (whose agents were swapped for Yassin) Khaled Mashaal.

I’ve been checking out some statements by the “moderate” Khaled Mashaal.

Explains so very much about you, Flanker.

But then, is there anyone here who seriously believes that the Israeli regime wants peace?!?!

I truly think that most people in the world desire peace Michael (it isn’t the personal property of the Stop the War Coalition you know!)

But it impossible to have “peace” when others want to kill you. Peace has to come from agreement – the peace we in the west had at the expense of Srebenica’s population is no kind of peace which to aspire towards.

Thanks for pointing out the police links to Hamas – but still surely we have learnt from Iraq that the destruction of all authority is not quite the best way to move forward have we not?

Anyway, Rosen has toddled off with his tail between his legs and all we are left with is Flanker.

Not really sport and sadly I must depart and go to the cinema.

You can come back in now Mikey. Its safe.

MattG

Err I am not a westerner… I do not hold values of exceptionalism, and imperialism close to my heart. My quadrant is the South.

I don’t have any real interest in discussing “proportionalety” – I’ll leave Zionist military strategy up to the blood-soaked generals and the moronic mooncalves of HP. What does interest me is the response from the Palestinian resistance

Interesting how you decided not to use the words “blood-soaked” to describe the Palestinian “resistance”, who today announced their willingness to fight “until the last drop of blood.”

You are quite right – proportionality is obviously something deeply uninteresting to you.

“Am I wrong?”

The whole point of any military strategy is to be “disproportionate.” If that Palestinians do not want to be one the receiving end of it, they should not allow their territory to be used to launch attacks on Israel.

FYI ..THE problem and path of evil in the current world are because of Isreal.

HB they tried giving up land, it backfired. Parse this sentence “They would give up land for peace but they will not give up land for a result of less security instead of more security”

Hasbara (minus the buster), you’ve been rumbled. You are too blinded by your hatred of Israel to acknowledge her evident acts of magnanimity. Go to a blog which welcomes your warped worldview and leave this blog to those who know better.

OK, Flanker, you may regard yourself as a moderate, and the best judge as to what constitutes moderation, but many people here disagree.

If you say that you, but not they, have the final say as to what constitutes ‘moderation’, you are not a moderate, you an extremist.

Thanks for the quotes Gene

“On February 13, 2006, in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Khalid Mashal declared that Hamas would end the armed struggle against Israel if Israel recognized the pre-1967 borders, withdrew from all Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights which would include the “right of return”.[9] He reaffirmed this stance in a March 5, 2008 interview with Al Jazeera English,[10][11]”

Quite moderate me thinks.

Is it your claim, Graham and Michael, that they would feel honour-bound not to put them in their own “police stations”?

Indeed no. Monsters of all races and nationalities would put weapons in maternity wards, but I do think you have to question where your own humanity is going if you actually target such places.

Blowing up the cops is a little less of an atrocity I agree. But I do think that targetting the police is a bit of an own goal unless you have some alternative form of authority that you are going to install (and that even then you make life more difficult for yourself.)

I am still confused about this – what is Israel supposed to do to persuade Hamas not to attack them? Would someone like to enlighten me?

Actually, we commenters don’t know a thing, so let’s have knowledgeable people explain it for us. Here’s Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division:

“The state of Israel must understand that Hamas rule in Gaza is a fact, and it is with that government that we must reach a situation of calm.

“The carrot is improvement of the economic situation in the Gaza Strip. You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and to expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing. That’s something that’s simply unrealistic.”

In short, removing the blockade would be a good starting point.

Quite moderate me thinks.

Nice selectivity, Flanker. You’ll notice he only makes these supposedly moderate statements (and they’re not moderate at all; the ultimate goal is still the destruction of Israel) to the non-Arab media.

HB they tried giving up land, it backfired.

No; they gave up Gaza with the intention of not giving up anything else. The Palestinians knew it because of the Israelis’ own confession.

The withdrawal from Gaza was explained by Dov Weisglass, Arik Sharon’s foreign-policy adviser at the time. It was done because Gaza was consuming too many resources that had instead to be devoted to retaining the West Bank. Said Weisglass:

The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

(…)

Arik doesn’t see Gaza today as an area of national interest. He does see Judea and Samaria as an area of national interest. He thinks rightly that we are still very very far from the time when we will be able to reach final-status settlements in Judea and Samaria.

(…)

The political process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The political process is the evacuation of settlements, it’s the return of refugees, it’s the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.

That does not strike me as a country that “wishes to live in peace withing secure boundaries.”

The Gaza withdrawal was done to freeze the political process with the Palestinians. No matter how hard you try to spin it, it was NOT done to achieve peace. Weissglass’s words speak as loud as, say, Ahmadinejad’s.

OK, so, neither Israel nor Palestine are worth the shedding of a single drop of human blood. Israel retains the greater power/capacity to make peace, but Gazans possess the power to commit to peaceful means to attain peace. The Gazans have far more to gain from stopping their rocket attacks than Israel has from refraining from attacking Gaza. I think that about sums up the situation…

indeed RD, it does sum it up, however, if it were not for the ideological hatred engendered by Hamas such circumstances might be simpler to resolve.

“Nice selectivity, Flanker. You’ll notice he only makes these supposedly moderate statements (and they’re not moderate at all; the ultimate goal is still the destruction of Israel) to the non-Arab media.”

This is nonsense, even if you were to trust the MEMRI “translations” all you have is the same Ahmadinejad:Israel::Reagan:USSR decontextualization that MEMRI is legendary for. I do not see the direct quote where he wants anyone killed, and belive it or not that makes him a moderate in the I/P issue.

Mod,

I’d add that “No justice, no peace” cretins in the outside world make matters a touch more difficult…

Flanker,

that is not a quotation, rather an interpretation of what Meshaal said. You must allow that there are all manner of interpretations as to what he actually said. He said nothing about giving up a permanent struggle with Israel, nor even an indefinite truce, let alone permanent peace.

But you have evinced, time and again, that you think the Jewish state fundamentally illegitimate and fit to be abolished or destroyed. Obviously the advocates and defenders of the Jewish state, extreme, moderate or otherwise are going to take a different view.

An agreement in which one party looks forward to the abolition of the other will not be viewed as moderate by the party-to-be-abolished. The fact that you share the view of the former party notwithstanding.

Brett:

“I suspect that goes for most who complain about “disproportionality”. It’s just an emotive word. What they’re opposed to is *any* response by Israel – proportional or not. Am I wrong?”

This is not a “response”, so that’s a complete non-starter. My point, however, was that you have to move beyond condemnation of this or that piece of Zionist butchery. One of the great tactics of the Zionists and their fellow travellers is that they seek to decontextualize every event, rip it from its historical context. This is the purpose of the rather horrific spectacle whereby everytime the IDF wipe some Palestinian people from the face of the Earth, we’re forced to wonder whether its proportionate, given some past infringement by Palestinians (”rocket fire in Southern Israel”, in this case). Our goal here should be to recontextualize the event, rendering its historical place more accurately. Namely, we have to say that events like this form merely a piece of the Zionist puzzle, which will only be completed when either the last Palestinian has been killed or the Palestinians agree to renounce their nationhood. Genocide, in other words. That is the purpose.

Poor Hasbara. When you’re in a hole, you are best advised to stop digging. You confuse Israel’s democracy with the totalitarian dictatorships which surround her.

You quote Weisglass as if he were the only voice in Israel. He is one of many voices – as any look at Israel’s multi-party system will tell you. If you are looking for a state where only the voice of the ruling regime counts, look to Israel’s north, where the hizbollah terrorists have veto power over the Lebanese government; or look to the north-east, ruled by the tyrant assad who does not wince when it comes to assassinating Lebanon’s previous PM; or perhaps to her east, where only the voice of the great-grandson of an imported ruler from the Hijaz carries weight; or look at hamas-land, where one gang of criminal terrorists cleansed the governing apparatus from the followers of the previous gang of criminal terrorists, throwing the more stubborn ones from the tops of buildings or shooting them dead on their hospital beds in the process; or perhaps you could look a little beyond gaza, where egypt has been ruled by the same dictator for 27 years, and not a word is uttered in public without his agreement.

Hasbara, before you set about criticising Israel, open a textbook and find out how a democracy works and how tyrants rule.

“But you have evinced, time and again, that you think the Jewish state fundamentally illegitimate and fit to be abolished or destroyed. Obviously the advocates and defenders of the Jewish state, extreme, moderate or otherwise are going to take a different view.”

The abolition of fundamentalist states and turning them into secular states is admitedly a leftwing position, but also a moderate one. An extreme leftwing position would be to kill all of the fundamentalists, I draw the line between moderates and extremists on the actual death toll.

“Err I am not a westerner… I do not hold values of exceptionalism, and imperialism close to my heart. My quadrant is the South.”

If I might interject here, Flanker, you are very culturally Christian Euro-western in your attitude to Israeli Jews. You talk about them very much as European Christian ‘westerners’ have talked of Jews for most of European, ‘western’ Christian history.

You +live+ in the south, but, aren’t your origins European? In any case, you have imported, it seems to me, much historical European cultural discourse about Jews with you, which may not be so freely expressed in modern European culture today. You have found somewhere where you can express them more freely. The attribution to Jews of the sex crime of lust and rape being a case in point.

It seems to me as though you are treating the ’south’ as a new frontier where you can break cultural inhibitions with regard to Jews.

Funny Callum, I’ve always thought it was you who completely lacks any sense of context. You’re right, you do have a context, you’ve obviously swallowed, with a drunkard’s lust, every single piece of propaganda you’ve ever been exposed to – as long as it was on one side.

Our goal here should be to recontextualize the event, rendering its historical place more accurately. Namely, we have to say that events like this form merely a piece of the Zionist puzzle, which will only be completed when either the last Palestinian has been killed or the Palestinians agree to renounce their nationhood. Genocide, in other words. That is the purpose.

Complete, utter bullshit. I saw it coming with words like “decontextualize” and “recontextualize.”

Is this the same “Callum” who was showed up to be a complete arse by Oliver Kamm?

It wouldn’t surprise me given the fatuous stupidity exhibited here.

Also:

“Namely, we have to say that events like this form merely a piece of the Zionist puzzle, which will only be completed when either the last Palestinian has been killed or the Palestinians agree to renounce their nationhood. Genocide, in other words. That is the purpose.”

Boggle!

“The abolition of fundamentalist states and turning them into secular states is admitedly a leftwing position, but also a moderate one.”

Yeah, but the only one you have ever evinced any ‘interest’ in is the Jewish, recapitulating an ancient, European, Christian, ‘western’ negative obsession with things Jewish.

And it is perfectly possible for someone with such a negative obsession to profess disingenuous ignorance of the actual death toll that the compelled dissolution of that, one, particular state would entail; while all the while expressing a hatred of that particular state that any normal person would construe as potentially murderous, if not genocidal, if given free rein to.

Nobody whose state you would dissolve is obliged to trust to your good intentions: you have shown no signs or evidence of any.

How laughable that in his post complaining about events being ripped from context, Callum’s very first sentence argues that the current Israeli action is

“not a “response”

!!!!!

Boggle indeed.

When does it stop?
Iran involvement?
US involvement?

Mark T:

Imagine a rapist is in the middle of raping someone. Imagine this someone, in an attempt to stop the rape, bites the rapist on the arm. Imagine then that the rapist, in “reponse”, hits this someone across the face, breaking their nose and sending their front teeth down their throat.

What you, and the comrades here, would have us do is discuss whether this was a legitimate “response” from the rapist to the bite.

And, I’m afraid, I refuse to discuss the moral qualms of rapists. You lot can go ahead though, fill your boots.

As I said, this latest attack is a tactic, an epiphenomenon of a wider strategy (the one I suggested).

““The abolition of fundamentalist states”

No Jewish citizen of the Jewish state is obliged to take the definition ‘fundamentalist’ as anything other than aggressive, hateful, threatening, or, even, eliminationist, with all the destruction that potentially entails.

As I said, it is the recapitulation of a very old, European, cultural Christian, ‘western’ equation of things Jewish with ‘fundamentalism’.

Clearly, as the poster above observed, you have found a wild ‘southern’ west to break customary, modern taboos.

Your hate obliges none to respond but with measures to defend or preserve themselves. You are a self-declared enemy. Israeli Jews are entitled to treat you as such.

“You +live+ in the south, but, aren’t your origins European? In any case, you have imported, it seems to me, much historical European cultural discourse about Jews with you, which may not be so freely expressed in modern European culture today. You have found somewhere where you can express them more freely. The attribution to Jews of the sex crime of lust and rape being a case in point.”

From my observation the south has adopted the good things from the west and rejected the evil parts that define it, again such as exceptionalism, colonialism and yes racism/xenophobia. So no you confuse me with a westerner yet again. Oh and you can say “rape”, you remind me of the bible with the whole crap that a man cannot lie with another man, simply cross it out and say “homosexuality”.

“Yeah, but the only one you have ever evinced any ‘interest’ in is the Jewish, recapitulating an ancient, European, Christian, ‘western’ negative obsession with things Jewish.”

You are wrong.

“Nobody whose state you would dissolve is obliged to trust to your good intentions: you have shown no signs or evidence of any.”

I don’t give a shit about intentions, I care about results.

In the interest of fairness, balance and a GREAT entertainment I give you MPAC UK and the wacko nutjobs that skulk around there. Apparently there’s a march on the Israeli Embassy http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5186/102/#jreactions

“Your hate obliges none to respond but with measures to defend or preserve themselves. You are a self-declared enemy. Israeli Jews are entitled to treat you as such.”

Again what is it with the biblical language? You can say that you would kill me if you saw me, I don’t get the dramatism. Oh and the South is not entirely a wild frontier just one you never heard from. It takes the good from other regions and rejects the bad.

Its early days at MPAC UK but this comment is worth sharing

Gaza has been a prison during the so called truce, no food, medication and fuel was allowed into the area. The Palestinians were dying in silence

I have yet to learn of a single Gazan who ever died of starvation. Of course, this mug doesn’t realis the phrase “so-called truce” must be a reference to Hamas.

Imagine a rapist is in the middle of raping someone. Imagine this someone, in an attempt to stop the rape, bites the rapist on the arm. Imagine then that the rapist, in “reponse”, hits this someone across the face, breaking their nose and sending their front teeth down their throat.

What is it with the nutjobs today?

I’ve read a nice story about the IRA firing missiles at the British and would we bomb Cork (no, because the bombs might bounce off) Now we have someone’s rape fantasy and I thought we were discussing the current response by Israel in Gaza.

Oh well, if its an analogy its lost on me.

In the interest of fairness, balance and a GREAT entertainment I give you MPAC UK and the wacko nutjobs that skulk around there. Apparently there’s a march on the Israeli Embassy

Yep, and this is being promoted by Derek Wall of the Green Party in a disgusting post in an even more disgusting thread at Pickled Politics. Notice how Wall wants to make TV an Israeli-free zone.

Thanks for confirming you are from Europe, Flanker, your personal games and fantasies about your own origins and identity notwithstanding.

And, yes, you are recapitulating a very ancient ‘western’ European, Christian theme with regard to Jews, in a ‘Wild Southern West’ where you feel you can ‘let it all hang out’.

Dear old Flanker: without intentions there are no results. Intentions are what drive us. And I do not believe you ‘accidentally’ intend the best for Israeli Jews.

You may not care about your intentions: we do. And you may think the results you intend are ‘moderate’, and all Israeli Jews deserve. They are entitled to think different.

Maven, why not join them on MPAC UK, and take Cullam and co with you?

Flanker’s a European? Damn. All along I was thinking he was an indigenous South American Stalinist.

“Again what is it with the biblical language?”

By ‘biblical’ you mean ‘Old Testament/Jewish’, right? I wasn’t aware I was using it until you told me: your preoccupation, not mine.

‘You can say that you would kill me if you saw me, I don’t get the dramatism.”

I said nothing of ‘killing’: again, your preoccupation, and what is floating about in your head, not mine.

“Oh and the South is not entirely a wild frontier just one you never heard from.”

Well, I heard about the way you are using it with regard to Jews. I did not say that characterized the South any more than cowboys or European settlers characterized the West. I simply observed how you, a European cultural Christian settler, are using it yourself.

“It takes the good from other regions and rejects the bad.”

Well, it takes European cultural Christian colonials like you. I do not know if that is good or bad.

The ‘inside’ on how it was planned http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

Those sneaky Israelis eh?

They actually told Mubarak they were going to strike. We have to assume that Egypt bought-in to the plan. He just didn’t know the real date for the action. I guess thatr is why Egypt urged Hamas to stop while strongly believing an attack was soon. When it didn’t happen so Hamas relaxed and went back in barracks. Oh Dear. Out-thought!

Callum apparently thinks that Hamas’ deliberate and premeditated decision to fire rockets into Israel, in response to an ill-defined and nebulous crime being perpetrated on their “people”, is equivalent to the instantaneous and instinctive response of a woman being raped.

Oh dear.

“Thanks for confirming you are from Europe, Flanker, your personal games and fantasies about your own origins and identity notwithstanding.”

I did? Oh my.

“Dear old Flanker: without intentions there are no results. Intentions are what drive us. And I do not believe you ‘accidentally’ intend the best for Israeli Jews.”

Meh, everybody means well, that is the excuse of monsters, That is what Laura tells us about Bush 24/7.

“By ‘biblical’ you mean ‘Old Testament/Jewish’, right? I wasn’t aware I was using it until you told me: your preoccupation, not mine.”

Is New Testament/Christian any less cryptic? hehe your baiting amuses me.

You quote Weisglass as if he were the only voice in Israel.

He made his statements to a leading Israeli newspaper — can you quote any other politician rebutting him? I can’t believe that in a free-speech country like Israel nobody set the record straight if Weisglass was lying.

Gaza was given up so that the West Bank could be kept. If not, explain to me why the illegal outposts are not only allowed to pop up like mushrooms, but also even listed in the phone book.

Never mind. At least Tony Greenstein can be relied upon for a sane and proportionate analysis -

Genocide in Gaza – Gaza is burning as the Warsaw Ghetto is replayed in miniature

Oh wait…

Yep, and this is being promoted by Derek Wall of the Green Party in a disgusting post in an even more disgusting thread at Pickled Politics. Notice how Wall wants to make TV an Israeli-free zone.

He wants accurate figures ONLY from a Palestinian Commentor. An oxymoron. Where’s Saeb Erekat when you need him (”500 massacred at Jenin”)

Greenstein http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/12/genocide-in-gaza-gaza-is-burning-as.html

The death of over 200 people, at the time of writing, in Gaza is testimony to the murderous hypocrisy of the Israeli state and the Zionists. This is 30 times more than the numbers of people killed by the ‘rockets’ launched from the Gaza Strip.

And at only 100 bombs its one fiftieth of the number of ordenance fired at Israel.

Proportionality has not yet been achieved.

“Meh, everybody means well, that is the excuse of monsters, That is what Laura tells us about Bush 24/7.”

In which case, it applies to you as much as anyone, especially if your intended dissolution of the Jewish state, with or without Hamas’ help, results monstrously.

““By ‘biblical’ you mean ‘Old Testament/Jewish’, right? I wasn’t aware I was using it until you told me: your preoccupation, not mine.”

“Is New Testament/Christian any less cryptic? hehe your baiting amuses me.”

But you didn’t mean ‘New Testament/Christian’, you meant ‘Old Testament/Jewish’: you interpreted what I said as a threat to kill you.

And, if you are an indigenous South American, you are so European culturally Christianized, with regard to Jews, one cannot tell the difference.

Take the good, reject the bad? Meh.

Paris – The European Union on Saturday called for an immediate end to hostilities in the Gaza Strip, following Israeli airstrikes on the territory which have left at least 155 people dead.

The EU also criticized what it called Israel’s disproportionate use of force, in a statement from the current presidency of the union in Paris.

The French foreign ministry on behalf of the EU renewed its call for a permanent ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, and said that there could be no military solution to the conflict in the Gaza Strip.

The 40 million euro injection of funds comes on top of the 256 million euros in budget support disbursed so far this year by the European Union.

A Palestinian official said the EU money would help Fayyad meet the next government payroll, due in the first week of September. Fayyad has been waiting for months to receive $80 million pledged by Kuwait but it is unclear when the funds will arrive in the Palestinian Authority’s coffers, officials say.

The Hidden Hand

Funding Hate

One things for sure.
I wouldnt fancy being Gilad Shalit right now.

“Callum apparently thinks that Hamas’ deliberate and premeditated decision to fire rockets into Israel, in response to an ill-defined and nebulous crime being perpetrated on their “people”, is equivalent to the instantaneous and instinctive response of a woman being raped.”

Ill-defined by whom? I know the nature of the crime, the Palestinians know it, most of the countries at the UN know it, most international law scholars know it and can “define” it. And it’s certainly not “nebulous”, in fact, it’s quite precise. These things tend to be. Perhaps it seems “nebulous” to you because you have your head buried in the sand.

Let’s be clear: for anyone of minimal critical intelligence, the “rocket fire” justification for this massacre is insultingly stupid. I suspect, however, you fail to pass this test. So, please, justify away!

Who verifies these casualty counts? 155? 190? According to whom? Typically Hamas tacks a ZERO on the end of their body counts. By the way Israel could not have telegraphed their intentions any harder if they tried.

Sean Rayment bases his entire rant on Hamas’s claim that 155 civilians have been killed by Israeli bombing. This is what Hamas claims, but there are no independent witnesses to corroborate this number. As Mark Regev, the Israeli govt spokesman pointed out – Hamas is a Taliban-style regime with total control over the media. For all we know they could have plucked the figure out of thin air.

How does Rayment know they are all civilians? How does he know what proportion of civilians there are ? Has anyone gone round counting them? How do you define a civilian where there is no regular army?

Given the numbers of rockets fired at Israeli civilians it is purely down to the high level of civil defence (Israeli apartments with ’safe’ reinforced rooms and basement shelters) that there not been more casualties. Perhaps Israel should apologise doing a disproportionate job of protecting its civilians.

Zombie the Irie is back again. After weeks in unfathomable narcosois while Hamas rockets rain down down on Israeli civilians with not a flicker or a twitch from the zombi, as the first Israeli rocket lands on what is probably a Hamas torture chamber, Zombi is electified and jerks into life to continue where he last left off the eternal struggle against the Jew.

“Oh and you can say “rape”, you remind me of the bible with the whole crap that a man cannot lie with another man, simply cross it out and say “homosexuality”.”

This is quite incoherent, Flanker. I overestimated your command of English: maybe you are not originally Anglo-phonic after all.

If I interpret this correctly, you are saying that your manufacturing a story about Israeli Jewish soldiers raping Palestinian girls is somehow equivalent to/justified by the ancient biblical capital prohibition on homosexuality.

Interesting. You seem unaware that no such prohibition or punishment is in force in Israeli culture. The fact that you think it is equivalent to your story-telling is even more curious, and sheds light on what perhaps you regard as the ‘xenophobia/racism’ to which you referred earlier.

Flanker, I apologize: I overestimated both your command of English and your intelligence.

“And at only 100 bombs its one fiftieth of the number of ordenance fired at Israel. ”

Wrong, your decontextualizing is misleading, One (a single one) of those bombs has the effectiveness of 5000 dumb rockets that may or may not even have explosive warheads. Apples and oranges.

“But you didn’t mean ‘New Testament/Christian’, you meant ‘Old Testament/Jewish’: you interpreted what I said as a threat to kill you.”

I interpreted as OT instead of NT? geez can you read my mind? or accusing you of that anti-jewish? hehe.

“And, if you are an indigenous South American, you are so European culturally Christianized, with regard to Jews, one cannot tell the difference.”

It is difficult to explain, the South is in conflict with the West. The genocidal events that occur in the region happened due to the rightwing western elements atttempting to exterminate the indigenous population, so it would not surprise me that whatever pockets of anti-jewish racism are part of the western influence that sadly still remains. Of course the south struggles against it as well.

“If the UK had been subjected to days of constant rocket fire”

What about 8 years?

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/people-in-sderot-and-western-negev-fed-up-living-with-daily-rocket-barrages/4188070606

Hasbara, I will explain all to you once you answer my first question, which you contnue to evade. Acknowledge Israel’s generosity of spirit in feeding, and providing fuel and hospital treatment to the terrorists who fire rockets at her civilians. Acknowledge that this generosity is unparalleled anywhere else in the world. Can’t do it, can you? It gets in the way of your preferred ‘narrative’. You are dishonest with yourself let alone anyone else!

You have a problem with reading comprehension too. Weisglass’s statements were widely debated in the Israeli press at the time – some agreed with him, some disagreed and yet others rebutted his statement. That is the nature of Israel’s democracy (do look up the definition of democracy). His view is just that – his view – and is not the view of others in the government, Knesset or country.

““But you didn’t mean ‘New Testament/Christian’, you meant ‘Old Testament/Jewish’: you interpreted what I said as a threat to kill you.”

“I interpreted as OT instead of NT? geez can you read my mind? or accusing you of that anti-jewish? hehe.”

Is “accusing” me of reading your mind anti-Jewish? No, of course not. But it rather confirms that I was right. Just as ‘killing’ seems to have been your preoccupation, not mine.

“And, if you are an indigenous South American, you are so European culturally Christianized, with regard to Jews, one cannot tell the difference.”

“It is difficult to explain, the South is in conflict with the West.”

With regard to Jews, the worst of both seem rather in agreement in the person of you.

“The genocidal events that occur in the region happened due to the rightwing western elements atttempting to exterminate the indigenous population, so it would not surprise me that whatever pockets of anti-jewish racism are part of the western influence that sadly still remains. Of course the south struggles against it as well.”

Not in your case. You perpetuate it with regard to the Jewish citizens of the second or largest Jewish community in the world.

Your good intentions notwithstanding.

The EU also criticized what it called Israel’s disproportionate use of force, in a statement from the current presidency of the union in Paris.

Basically this means fuck all. Any time someone calls an Israeli response “disproportional” and you ask them “So what would be proportional” you will find no answer whatsoever.

There is NO international definition of “Proportionality”. I researched this after the Lebanon war and international lawyers all said that no court could define it and so no prosecution could evet be brought.

I believe I got the closest above when I stated that proportionality had to do with capacity to respond, the scale of the stimulus and a moral modifier.

“If I interpret this correctly, you are saying that your manufacturing a story about Israeli Jewish soldiers raping Palestinian girls is somehow equivalent to/justified by the ancient biblical capital prohibition on homosexuality.”

I am mocking your dramatist language.

Well said, Londoner.
Hasbara will always find a view which supports his own agenda and Israel is never short of dissenting views (Two Israelis, three opinions). That’s why people like Avrum Burg are so popular with Penny Pemberton et al.

From today’s New York Times, reproduced here to illuminate all those who refuse to acknowledge the basic facts:

Israeli Gaza Strike Kills More Than 200
TAGHREED EL-KHODARY and ETHAN BRONNER, NYTimes, 27/12/2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html?_r=2

Hamas is officially committed to Israel’s destruction, and when it won Palestinian legislative elections in 2006 and then forcibly took over Gaza in 2007, it said it would not recognize Israel, honor previous Palestinian Authority commitments to it or end its violence against Israelis.

“I am mocking your dramatist language.”

I would have thought that inventing a story about Israeli Jewish rape, which one then implicitly acknowledges as manufactured, but then justifies by means of metaphorical interpretation qualifies, in some measure, as ‘dramatist’.

It is a form of story-telling, then expounding upon it, allegorically.

“And at only 100 bombs its one fiftieth of the number of ordenance fired at Israel. ”

Wrong, your decontextualizing is misleading, One (a single one) of those bombs has the effectiveness of 5000 dumb rockets that may or may not even have explosive warheads. Apples and oranges.

No. you are wrong. Proportionality must be related to your maximum capacity to respond and modified by a moral dimension.

If 5,000 Hamas missiles equals 100% of their capacity to attack, to stimulate a response, and if 100 missiles equals 2% of Israel’s capacity to respond then Israel has responded morally proportional UNDER stating its response.

Since Israel has taken thousands of rockets without response then its moral factor also UNDER states and defines the scale of the response.

Hamas are on the way out. Its the beginning of the end.

Challenge:

Someone define what a “Proportional Response” from Israel would have been if this isn’t it.

I believe any of you who try will fail by having your argument eviscerated.

Dear FauxIbrahim, don’t you get bored with posting the Weissglas quote over and over again? You seem to labor under the delusion that Dov Weissglass is the one to define Israeli policy ever since he uttered a sentence that you find useful for your purposes. Since you ask so politely for other voices “rebutting him”, it’s perhaps time that you take note, e.g., of the Kadima party platform, which explicitly envisages the creation of a Palestinian state? True, the platform also envisages that Israel will keep the settlement blocs, but this summer, the current Kadima-led government offered the Palestinians a state on territory equivalent to 98.5 percent of the pre-1967 Westbank-Gaza territory, PLUS a connection between Gaza and the Westbank. The Palestinians thought this offer wasn’t good enough, and rejected it….

Flanker – if you like the south so much, how about living in southern Negev for a while? Maybe with one of the palestinian families in Sderot?

Unguided rockets kill:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3644954,00.html

“Acknowledge Israel’s generosity of spirit in feeding, and providing fuel and hospital treatment to the terrorists who fire rockets at her civilians. Acknowledge that this generosity is unparalleled anywhere else in the world. Can’t do it, can you? It gets in the way of your preferred ‘narrative’. You are dishonest with yourself let alone anyone else!”

Public Relations… please do you think people here are 12?

“With regard to Jews, the worst of both seem rather in agreement in the person of you.”

The person of me seems to be in disagreement with the person of you with re: to the South and the person of yours truly.

“Not in your case. You perpetuate it with regard to the Jewish citizens of the second or largest Jewish community in the world.”

Wrong, I oppose genocide and fundamentalist states, both logically consistent.

“If 5,000 Hamas missiles equals 100% of their capacity to attack, to stimulate a response, and if 100 missiles equals 2% of Israel’s capacity to respond then Israel has responded morally proportional UNDER stating its response.”

You are confusing relative proportionality with objective proportionality.

“Unguided rockets kill:”

But not on the same level of proportionality.

“Someone define what a “Proportional Response” from Israel would have been if this isn’t it.”

Sending commandos to try and arrest whoever is responsible for the rocket fire. Their intelligence according to the Hareetz article was top notch, meaning they could have captured them, but preferred to assassinate them in the most collaterally damaging way.

“With regard to Jews, the worst of both seem rather in agreement in the person of you.”

“The person of me seems to be in disagreement with the person of you with re: to the South and the person of yours truly.”

Not necessarily re. the South: I do not hold you to embody The South. With regard to you, sure.

“Not in your case. You perpetuate it with regard to the Jewish citizens of the second or largest Jewish community in the world.”

“Wrong, I oppose genocide and fundamentalist states, both logically consistent.”

Well, no Jewish citizen of the one, single allegedly ‘fundamentalist’ state you seek to dissolve or abolish is obliged to trust to your ‘opposition to genocide’, especially as you pursue an ‘interest’ in that one state like you do no other, especially as you have expressed a hatred for that state like you have no other.

It is not logically inconsistent to regard you as sufficiently hateful to distrust your allegedly benign intentions.

Most of the dead were members of the Hamas Security Forces. Can someone please explain to me what that means – is it seperate from the military wing? Someone is claiming to me that Israel has been targeting the police forces rather than those responsible for the rockets, etc.

From someone in the region:

The View from Here

Subject: Enough is enough!

Today, under instruction of the Israeli Government, the Israeli Air Force struck at fifty Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other Palestinian terror groups in the Gaza Strip.

They were responding to the growing demand of Israelis to take action to prevent the daily bombardment of Hamas rockets from Gaza.

This was in response to hundreds of rockets and missiles that had been fired into Israel from Palestinian-held Gaza. The Israeli attacks against terror targets came after repeated warnings from the Israeli Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, the Israeli Chief of Staff, and the Israeli Foreign Minister, that Hamas must immediately stop targeting innocent Israelis with rocket bombardments. Hamas chose to ignore these warnings.

Hamas did not expect Israel to attack them on a Shabbat (Saturday). The result was sudden and immediate. Fifty carefully selected targets were pinpointed for destruction. They were all Hamas controlled Command and Control centers, terrorist training camps, police stations, logistic and support buildings.

Israeli TV viewers were treated to aerial photos of the targets and their description. It was clear that all were essential parts of the Hamas terror infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.

Because the attack was not anticipated by Hamas and other terror organizations the casualty toll was high. British and American TV channels spoke of over two hundred dead, as if they were casual and innocent civilians. This is not the case. They were Hamas activists and terrorists.

This evening a further three Palestinians were killed in another air attack as they were launching more missiles into Israel. Again, Israeli TV viewers watched the launch of the missiles. The video was taken by an overhead drone.

The Israeli Government intends to continue its strikes against Hamas and other terror targets. The I.D.F. have a rich bank of legitimate targets as it seeks to reduce the Hamas infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.

Hamas speaks constantly of being under siege and impoverished, but they have invested billions into their terror headquarters, training bases, recruitment centers, communication networks, logistics and supply structures, weapon factories and storage facilities.

The timing of the Israeli response is interesting. Israel is trying to reduce the aggressive arm of Hamas in Gaza at a time when the Palestinian President Abbas is preparing to continue his leadership role from 9th January 2009. Hamas has refused to accept a further term in office of the Fatah leader. They have threatened to oust Abbas in favor of a candidate of their own.
The Israeli attacks serve the interests of the ‘moderate’ Fatah branch of the Palestinian Authority.

The View from Here
Israel

Sending commandos to try and arrest whoever is responsible for the rocket fire. Their intelligence according to the Hareetz article was top notch, meaning they could have captured them, but preferred to assassinate them in the most collaterally damaging way. #

The entire Hamas leadership is responsible. Firing rockets at Israel is their official policy (and carried out by their members), not the acts of a few rogue elements. Israel could not even attempt to arrest them without a full scale military invasion leading to far more civilian casualties.

Well, this has been a long time coming. The only rational goal can be to de-fang Hamas. Hoping they can do it.

The Hamas army:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111720859&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

– should be read alongside this lament:
“Hamas sought to create an image of normality in Gaza and to create a single, united military structure for the first time.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3981484/Israel-changed-the-rules-forever-with-Gaza-airstrike.html

They can do it. Hoping they will do it.

“It is not logically inconsistent to regard you as sufficiently hateful to distrust your allegedly benign intentions.”

I do not care about intentions, all you need to know is that I am right and you are wrong.

I honestly feel Israel had no choice but to take the actions that it has.

Clearly the condemnation of Israel is as natural as the sun rising, simply a fact of life. In the eyes of many nations, any action, that Israel undertakes to defend itself is illegitimate.

I hope, but I am doubtful, that the situation for the people living near Gaza will improve in the long-term as a result of today’s actions, and I pray that lives are not lost in what I suppose will be the almost certain bestial revenge suicide attacks.

I know this will not sit well with many here, but as it is Chanukah, and our sages have informed us that one of the themes of these days is “not by armies, not by strength, but by my spirit, says HaShem “, I feel it necessary to quote a Psalm of David, “If only My people would listen to me, if Israel would walk in My ways, I would soon subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their foes”

May HaShem protect the citizens of Israel, and the innocent in Gaza.

“I do not care about intentions”

You may not care about your intentions: I do.

“all you need to know is that I am right and you are wrong.”

It is hard to tell if this is really you, Flanker, or someone mocking you: you do tend to end up mocking yourself.

A ‘special’ supplication from Islamway:

O Allah seize the Jews and the Hypocrites!

O Allah the Most Capable, the All-conquering, the Most Powerful, the Most Beloved!

O Allah prayers and peace and blessings be on your prophet Muhammad!

O Allah your vulnerable slaves in Gaza, the accursed Jews and the spiteful hypocrites coerce them!

O Allah make them victorious over their enemies and ease their sorrow and forgive them (i.e. the militants)!

O Allah make them equal to your task and no-one can forgive except you!

O Allah in you we trust and we believe in your power!

O Allah drive the Jews and the Hypocrites away and strengthen your obedience (literally but this would imply the militants are more ‘powerful’ than Allah – so probably ‘favour’) to them!

O Allah dissolve their unity and wreck their planning! O Allah! O Allah! O Master of the Kingdom and the power, we have not Master equal to you!

O Refuge of the oppressed and vulnerable destroy the Zionists and their families and don’t let even one of them escape!

O Most Capable and Most Mighty One glory be to you alone and accept our supplications and make manifest our actions and establish our foothold (strengthen our resolve = lit.) and make us victorious over the Disbelieving people and deliver us back to your religion steadfastly! O Noblest of the Noble!

O Allah sow discord amongst them and cast terror into their hearts and cast down upon them your punishment and most terrible chastisement for You are the Truth!

O Allah vanquish them and shake them violently! O Most Beloved! O Most Firm! O Allah! O Allah! O Allah! Make the Muslims triumphant everywhere!

O Allah seize the Jews and those who help them!

O Allah seize the Jews and those who help them!

O Allah seize the Jews and those who help them!

We sent the Imams and the speakers a supplication for the brothers in Gaza and urge the devoted to supplicate and to hope and the insistence in the supplication is for Allah all praise for him alone to rescue our brothers in Gaza from the cunning of the Jews and the Hypocrites!

Nice!

killing over 200 people is disproportionate as a response to the death of 6 people (who were killed after the Israeli airstrikes began) you scum, especially when you have placed those people under seige for 3 years and they now suffer 75% malnutrition, and many of of the children are deaf and have PTSD because of the air raids you submit them too. but I’m not worried: “como a los nazis, te va a pasar, adonde vayan los iremos a buscar”.

Israel will pay for its crimes.

and btw, Britain *is* addicted to violence

Nearly of the writers condemning Israel’s action on this thread might have a bit of credibility if they:
a) weren’t already proven anti-semitic scumbags
b) had ever simply condemned the firing of rockets at civilians without contextualizing

Only an anti-semite could care about 200 dead arabs, it is not as if they are real human beings or anything.

la mano de d10s

“but I’m not worried”

Clearly, you are not worried, oh alleged hand of g-d: you have been encouraging or supporting Gazans in a policy of hostility towards Israel which has redounded greatly to their happiness.

Clearly you wish further such happiness on them.

“Only an anti-semite could care about 200 dead arabs, it is not as if they are real human beings or anything.”

If you say so, Anon.

But may not Israeli Jews care about Israeli Jews?

Ah but gray – don’t you know that the firing of Qassams at civilians is akin to the instinctive response of a woman being raped!

Callum says so, anyway.

Acknowledge Israel’s generosity of spirit in feeding, and providing fuel and hospital treatment to the terrorists who fire rockets at her civilians.

Israel does not feed or provide fuel to Gaza. The items are purchased by the Palestinians with money coming from international donors. I.e., Israel exports goods to Gaza, thus earning sorely-needed hard currency. For instance, in 2005 the value of Israeli exports to the PA was approximately US$2.5-2.7 billion; see here. Please notice that Israel enjoys a captive market for most of its exports to the PA. No generosity there; just business.

As for the Palestinians treated in Israeli hospitals, allow me, as an Argentinian, to provide information you, as a Briton, may already be aware of. Prior to the Falklands War of 1982, Falkland Islanders were provided quality medical care absolutely free of charge at Argentinian hospitals; they were brought from and returned to the islands in a state-subsidized airline. Do you believe Argentina was a morally superior country, providing free services to a population that despised us? Of course you don’t. Of course you understand Argentina did that to score publicity points on the international stage. Very well. Now apply that very same understanding capacity to the case of the Palestinians treated in Israeli hospitals.

Flanker and co, don’t you think that what the glorious heroes of Mumbai did to the Rabbi, his wife and child before they killed them was a little bit disproportionate? Or is just being Jewish in India an irrideemable offence to Allah?

“Clearly, you are not worried, oh alleged hand of g-d: you have been encouraging or supporting Gazans in a policy of hostility towards Israel which has redounded greatly to their happiness.

Clearly you wish further such happiness on them.”

yes, me sitting here, “wishing happiness on them” would be very useful. thankyou Pablo Coelho.

I don’t think there is any chance of “happiness” under capitalism for the 90% of us. What we can and will do though is go to the barricades so that our grandchildren *can* live in happiness, because we, like the brave gazans, heroes to the last man, stood up to the brutal colonial world order and defeated it.

You better hope the current awakening across the world doens’t continue, because if it does, you are “toast”. :D

Check out Callum’s latest offering:

Callum
27 December 2008, 7:27 pm

God almighty, you lot can put your blood-stained foot in your child-eating mouths, can’t you?

Onward Soldiers of Zion!

Via MPAC:

Sunday 28 December 2.00 pm – 4.00 pm and Monday 29 December 4.00pm – 6.00pm

Both protests opposite Israeli Embassy – Kensington High Street

Nearest tube: High Street Kensington

Protests organised by PSC, Palestine Return Centre (PRC), Palestinian Forum of Britain (PFB), British Muslim Initiative (BMI), Stop the War, Friends of al Aqsa, Muslim Association of Britain (MAB), Respect, Islamic Human Rights Commission

MPAC:

Demonstration at the Palestine Holocaust Memorial Museum on Second Life today.

Organised by IslamOnline. Use every platform available to protest this outrage.

WTF!

Donations going 100% to Gaza can be made in-world.

I don’t think there is any chance of “happiness” under capitalism for the 90% of us. What we can and will do though is go to the barricades so that our grandchildren *can* live in happiness, because we, like the brave gazans, heroes to the last man, stood up to the brutal colonial world order and defeated it.

That’s really it. That sums it up perfectly. Missile and rockets and histrorical arguments are just noise. The main point is that,somehow, Israel stands between us and our glorious future, Comrades.

OK, alleged hand of g-d,

clearly you do wish Gazans to persist in hostilities towards Israel.

Well, Israel is entitled to object.

“Check out Callum’s latest offering”

Actually, that was posted before anything else. Get the important things out of the way first, that’s my motto.

“Get the important things out of the way first, that’s my motto.”

Well, you certainly nail your colours to your mast, Callum.

Can you explain to me how a petty bourgoise medieval theocratic organisation can defeat ‘the brutal colonial world order’, please. That can’t even provide adequate sewerage facilities or hospitals or schools for its population? Can you explain that?

The so-called strike is nothing but a crime of the worst sort. It is mass murder. There are other ways of dealing with military problems.
The red-herring of bygone Irish politics stinks of hypocrisy; the idea of a Royal Air Force crew participating in the bombing and slaughter of the inhabitants of Belfast, Derry or Dublin is straight out of a Monty Python’s Flying Circus episode.

Seems I have to interrupt this sick self righteous justification-feast for mass murder, with the news that you phoney more Israeli than the Israeli wankers are being put to shame by the ever increasing number of real Israelis who are in position to know that the shit that your are spurting is just that, pure shit;

Protests Across Israel in Wake of Gaza Attack
Balad Chair Calls for Barak to Face War Crimes Charges

As Prime Minister Ehud Olmert urged all Israeli citizens to unite behind the government’s decision to attack the Gaza Strip, hundreds of protesters took to the streets of Israeli cities to protest the killings.

Several hundred activists in Tel Aviv rallied on the lawn of the Israeli Defense Ministry, condemning what they called “genocide and war crimes” in the Gaza Strip and urging a return to peace talks. At least five were arrested when police broke up the rally.

Demonstrations were also reported in several Israeli Arab cities in the country’s north, and Israel has placed its police on alert to deal with them. Clashes were reported in East Jerusalem and a rally is planned for Nazareth by the Hadash Party.

Meanwhile, the Balad Party’s chairman condemned Defense Minister Ehud Barak’s decision to launch the strikes, accusing him of “trying to win votes in exchange for Palestinian blood” and calling for him to be tried for war crimes over the killings. Between this and yesterday’s call from the Hatikva Party’s head for Barak to be put on trial for allowing medicine into the strip, Barak seems to have found himself making enemies across the political spectrum.

You better hope the current awakening across the world doens’t continue, because if it does, you are “toast”. :D

Ah, there was me thinking that this poster was concerned for the Gazan civilian dead (forget the demographics of the dead, this is his line). But today’s dead are simply foils to encourage a worldwide backlash against the collective “you” (i.e. Jews), at any location – not just noticeable Israeli targets. All complete with a taunting smiley.

I ain’t no psychiatrist, but I believe this is called sociopathy and psychopathy.

Then there’s Callum attempting to deflect from his classic antisemitic trope with some burbling about chronological order. It’s a given that brown-shirts are thick, but this isn’t even trying.

“Then there’s Callum attempting to deflect from his classic antisemitic trope”

I wasn’t trying to “deflect”, Big Al. I was simply stating a fact. The poster claimed that was my “latest offering” when it wasn’t. I know you guys are poor historians, but still.

I’m not too familiar with “class antisemitic tropes”, so I can’t say what in my post would qualify as one.

Thanks for your input though, Big Al, it was as illuminating and insightful as usual.

“Someone define what a “Proportional Response” from Israel would have been if this isn’t it.”

Sending commandos to try and arrest whoever is responsible for the rocket fire.

I think Flanker and the Irie should start an elite commando unit aimed at arresting “whoever is responsible for the rocket fire” in Gaza. That way they could save the live of “innocent” members of the Hamas security force whose job it is to…

Alberto Miyara, busted by your hasbara again! And still digging!

You are so fixated by the supposed financial ‘gain’, that you cannot comprehend the magnanimity of a country sending food to the very same terrorists who target rockets at her civilians.

Israel operates in a very different neighbourhood to Argentina, so your analogy doesn’t work on several levels. Would any of Israel’s neighbours send food to Israel even if it was paid for by a third party? Perish the very thought – Israel’s neighbours have been wedded to an economic boycott against her from the time the UN granted her independence in 1947.

The income is only important in the mind of one alberto miyara. If it were a factor, the food would have been supplied by egypt instead. Egypt has a border with gaza, should be concerned about her co-religionists in gaza, is not being targeted by rocket attacks from gaza, and could do with the income from gaza.

You really scraped the bottom of the barrel with your analogy of Argentinian medical treatment for Falkland Islanders. The Falkland Islanders, you say, ‘despised’ Argentina. The gazan terrorists are actively targeting and killing Israeli civilians. Israel would be very grateful for such mercies as having neighbours who merely ‘despise’ her.

And since when is Israel scoring publicity points for hospitalising gazan terrorists? Such issues are rarely, if ever, reported outside the Israeli press.

Bard on the Run,

neither the IRA nor the Irish Republic ever claimed all of England was really Ireland nor declared they would one day destroy the English or British state.

But if Eire had done so, and consistently launched rockets on English towns, and threatened English cities, as well as attempted to acquire rockets and weapons from, say, the USSR, with greater and greater range and capability, as well as seek to make military alliances with neighbouring states, such as the de facto state of Hizbullahstan, which had similar professed goals, I dare say the RAF would have been involved.

But, that is a hypothesis, since the circumstances were very different, your bardic imagination notwithstanding.

I’m afraid your bardic skills do not seem to amount to much more than constructing bad prose-poems. And, if you have the runs, we all know of what sort.

This post has been very useful to enemies of ‘Harry’s Place’.

Thanks Gene.

Don’t bother to delete the post. I’ve saved it – and the comments – and it will be posted all over the world to convince the doubters that Zionism = Racism.

You’ve done my job better that I could have.

ps Alec, are you aware that Ehud Olmert’s Betar movement wore brown shirts in honour of Mussolini before the Nazis?

“I’m not too familiar with “class antisemitic tropes”, so I can’t say what in my post would qualify as one.”

Well, Callum, you hit the jackpot: using the ancient first Hellenistic Egyptian pagan, then European Christian, now Arab and Asian Islamic libel/trope that Jews practice infanticidal cannibalism.

A trope I doubt you have ever applied to any other national, ethnic or religious group, whether British, American, Russian, Christian, Islamic or other, despite their having been responsible for the death of far more babies in far less straitened circumstances e.g. Russia in Chechnya, US and UK in Iraq, during sanctions, Gulf Wars I and II etc.

Despite your allegedly not knowing it is a classic antisemitic trope, I suspect you have applied it to only one ethnic or religious group.

And, the funny thing, you applied to largely British posters on this website who are not actually directly involved in the conflict.

How’s that for coincidence?

I wasn’t trying to “deflect”, Big Al. I was simply stating a fact.

“Namely, we have to say that events like this form merely a piece of the Zionist puzzle, which will only be completed when either the last Palestinian has been killed or the Palestinians agree to renounce their nationhood. Genocide, in other words”? Give us the source.

And I’m Nicholas Donin.

I should have said

“And, the funny thing, you applied it to largely British Jewish posters on this website who are not actually directly involved in the conflict.

How’s that for coincidence?”

“Donations going 100% to Gaza can be made in-world.”

But will the Gazans see any of it oh Imam, or will it be syphoned off by the Hamas fat cats as has happened to billions of dollars of aid previously?

Half-truth – only “several hundred?” That speaks volumes doesn’t it?

And will they also call for Khaled Mishal to be tried for war crimes against the Palestinian people (fair’s fair, after all) for pursuing this forlorn hope of mastery by lies and deceit, and for sending suicide killers to target Israeli civilians, or will you bleat and tweet alongside him and continue to sell out your countrymen and women?

Bard – “..There are other ways of dealing with military problems..”

OK. If this military problem embeds itself among civilians and continues to fire rockets throughout a ceasefire which it itself asked for, what do you suggest, singing at them?

Buster, “..The items are purchased by the Palestinians with money coming from international donors….” In the same way as, no doubt, are all the other commodities being smuggled in by Hamas from Egypt – Hamas rents out the tunnels and insists that it alone distributes (or rather fails to distribute) supplies.

“Ah but gray – don’t you know that the firing of Qassams at civilians is akin to the instinctive response of a woman being raped!..”

Actually, that cannot be true can it? Under sharia law a woman who allows herself to be raped is often killed by her family (I gather that it’s de rigeur in Iran) and shortly, so we hear, Hamas is to bring in draconian new sharia laws in Gaza and the West Bank which include the death penalty for pursuing peace with Israel. Wait a minute… could the numbers of Palestinian dead include those who have been killed for allowing themselves to be “raped?”

Callum wrote:

“I’m not too familiar with “class antisemitic tropes”, so I can’t say what in my post would qualify as one.”

there’s really no excuse for not reading it, if you are going to discuss this type of topic

“may not Israeli Jews care about Israeli Jews?”

Out of interest how many dead arabs does it take to avenge one dead Israeli?

200 enough or do we need lots more blood?

because we, like the brave gazans, heroes to the last man

Are you insinuating that Farfur the mouse is/was not a brave Hamas hero? What kind of rodent-hating racist zionazi neocon are you la mano de d10s?

Modernity,

despite Callum’s professing ignorance, I doubt he’s accused any other national, ethnic or religious group of having placed ‘their bloody boots in their baby-eating mouths’.

That could be a coincidence, but, odds are otherwise.

“Out of interest how many dead arabs does it take to avenge one dead Israeli? 200 enough or do we need lots more blood?”

I do not know: it is not a question of vengeance.

The Israel Jewish-Palestinian Christian and Muslim conflict, since 2001, has averaged, so far, a kill/death ratio of 1:4, which is very low for this kind of conflict, and shows Israel exercises great restraint.

What would be an acceptable ratio for you: 1:1? But no conflict between states is ever fought this way. The state that deters another state from violence usually inflicts a kill/death ratio in its favour that is much greater.

E.g. Gulf Wars I and II were 1:1000 or more in the allies’ favour. Similarly with Russia in Chechnya.

Hamas is runs a de facto state whose declared aim is Israel’s extinction, and daily launches rockets on Israeli citizens.

Israel is not obliged to endure this.

anon, how daft can you get? Israel wants a peaceful existence where her citizens can go about their daily lives without being targeted by terrorists.

The word ‘avenge’ only occurs to those who misunderstand Israel’s predicament entirely. Israel’s population has a right to live without rocket attacks. If hamas terrorists stop the rocket attacks, they would no longer be terrorists and there would be no need for Israel to target them. Numbers are a game that armchair terrorist advocates play – not Israeli governments who are answerable to their electorate.

Well, it could be than I’m “channeling” Eichmann, I don’t know.

In any case, my post wasn’t an attack on Israel, far less an attack on an “ethnic group”. It was a comment about the ill-timed nature of the post waxing ironic about Israel giving Palestinian’s “humanitarian aid”. That is, it was aimed at HP, not Israel.

Perhaps I’m also channeling some deep-seated cultural prejudice against pro-war middle class bloggers?

Place me on the couch.

Alberto Miyara, busted by your hasbara again! And still digging!

But what can you expect from me if I’m a 4-ft-tall mediocre teacher who can’t make ends meet, and on top of that my wife cheats on me with a guy with a bigger dick! I could have worked with a shrink to get over it, but I took the easy way out of blaming the Jews — that’s why I killed my late Jewish father in the first place.

You are so fixated by the supposed financial ‘gain’

Oh, God! Even though I killed my father there are still some Jewish traits in me!

the magnanimity of a country sending food to the very same terrorists who target rockets at her civilians

International law 101: Israel, as an attacked country, is entitled to occupy the attackers’ land; but it is not entitled to withhold food, fuel, medicines and other essentials.

Since when abiding by international law (and earning handsome profits in the process) is an act of magnanimity? Oh, sorry, I forgot we’re talking about Israel.

The Falkland Islanders, you say, ‘despised’ Argentina. The gazan terrorists are actively targeting and killing Israeli civilians.

Which of course has nothing to do with our discussion, the relevant factor being that neither Argentina nor Israel were under any obligation to provide medical care, yet did so for PR reasons.

*Palestinians.

anon, how daft can you get? Israel wants a peaceful existence where her citizens can go about their daily lives without being targeted by terrorists.

And how does authorizing a new civilian settlement in Maskiyot help in achieving said peaceful existence?

“In any case, my post wasn’t an attack on Israel, far less an attack on an “ethnic group”. It was a comment about the ill-timed nature of the post waxing ironic about Israel giving Palestinian’s “humanitarian aid”. That is, it was aimed at HP, not Israel.”

That simply begs the question: why impute to people who are certainly not directly involved with even indirectly killing babies ‘bloody boots in baby-eating mouths’?

In that case, isn’t it a coincidence that you have likely never applied the epithet “bloody boots in baby-eating mouths” to anyone but the largely British Jewish posters (e.g. David Toube, who first set up HP), who often congregate here because they find the company conducive and who, like most British Jews, express views and opinions sympathetic to the Jewish state of Israel?

Isn’t it curious that you saved up that little gem just for them?

“Perhaps I’m also channeling some deep-seated cultural prejudice against pro-war middle class bloggers?”

Only if you happen to associate the latter with normative Anglo-Jewish sympathy with Israel and its situation.

zkharya,

Re: callum’s comments

why explain with malice what can be explained with ignorance?

Callum’s politics are not based on evidence, reasoning or an understanding of humanity as complex and contradictory, rather he’s an ideologue

thus books for him (or knowledge of antisemitism) are only useful if they bolster his existing positions, they won’t enlighten him or make him change his views

Callum has a rather fixed mindset for a youngster and will probably continue so, for the rest of his life.

Seems I have to interrupt this sick self righteous justification-feast for mass murder, with the news that you phoney more Israeli than the Israeli wankers are being put to shame by the ever increasing number of real Israelis who are in position to know that the shit that your are spurting is just that, pure shit;

Protests Across Israel in Wake of Gaza Attack
Balad Chair Calls for Barak to Face War Crimes Charges…

Now if there had been so many protests in Gaza against the rockets or against the suicide bombings – instead of say, A plurality voting for Hamas, I would now be taking the Palestinians side… But the populace are parties at war, and yet you would exculpate them of all responsibility for making war. You are part of a pro-war party. You approve of holy war against Jews.

Modernity,

as I said, and all I said: perhaps it’s just a coincidence. ‘odds are otherwise.

I do not feel the need to say anything else. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

I also do not feel obliged to accept Callum’s profession of ignorance at face value. As I said: it’s a pretty big coincidence.

Gene,

Please fix the thread’s title. The word “disproportionate” is misspelled (misspelt?).

Alberto, a real man does not take out his ‘dick problems’ on others. Watch that link you made between the supposed financial ‘gain’ and Jews. Sounds like your wife has good reason to cheat on you, and it has nothing to do with your anatomy.

There is progress, however – you finally admit that Israel is an “attacked country”! But you are wrong on the particulars again. Israel is not obliged to supply anything to the terrorists who attack her. Gaza has a border with a fellow-arab country too, and egypt should supply the essentials.

You reached a new low with your attempt to evade the false Falkland/Argentina analogy (which you raised). You simply cannot compare Israel’s gesture of treating terrorists who are injured while they were attacking her, and Argentina treating Falkland Islanders who merely ‘despised’ but never inflicted terrorist attacks on her.

Do the right thing for a change – admit your ‘arguments’ are baseless and are the result of antisemitism and your personal hang-ups.

zkharya,

you have a point, I won’t deny that :)

agreed, Callum’s comments are strange, but he’s been like this for years, arguing such stuff on Lenin’s Tomb

of course, Callum does “swim” in and around the SWP (or assorted groupings) and you’ll remember how they spectacularly “missed” Gilad Atzmon’s racism for over four years.

seriously, Callum and his mates probably don’t read any scholarly work, just stuff from a narrow range of authors which tie in with their existing views, etc

if you gave him a booklist of 4-6 books on the topic of antisemitism (or Jewish history) he wouldn’t buy them, let alone read them in 10 years.

basically, Callum and Co are (what we, autodidactic members of the underclasses, call) thick.

So a thread that began by discussing what Gene seems to think was an investigation of the relative merits of the words ‘proportionate’ and ‘disproportionate’ vis a vis the death and destruction that is going on in Gaza, has now turned into – guess what? – a discussion about antisemitism.

Nothing like working in your own comfort zone when the blood hits the fan.

HB, how dare you link West Bank settlements with the legitimate bombing of Gaza?! How disproportionate of you. Or antisemitic. Or both.

Hi Michael,

glad to see you are ever attracted to our light.

‘a guy used an antisemitic trope, addressed to a fair number of the Jewish posters who frequent this site, I remarked it, a discussion ensued. ’sorry if your expectations were dashed/fulfilled.

You are hard to please.

Emigration from Israel exceeds immigration, report

Actually, Palestinian emigration from the Palestinian terrortories exceeds Jewish emigration from Israel.

This post has been very useful to enemies of ‘Harry’s Place’.

We have enemies?

Thanks Gene.

Don’t bother to delete the post. I’ve saved it – and the comments – and it will be posted all over the world to convince the doubters that Zionism = Racism.

I just realized how useful this post was to our enemies and proves beyond a reasonable doubt that all Zionists are racists, and I was all set to delete it, but now resistor advises me that he’s saved it. Damn!

Koppers, who wouldn’t choose to emigrate if they are either ruled by hamas terrorist thugs who aim to foist sharia ‘punishment’ laws on the very people they claim to be protecting; or by fatah terrorist thugs who steal most of the aid money sent by the West? Just look at the wealth amassed by mahmoud abbas, ahmed qureia (whose company provided much of the cement for Israel’s security barrier), saeeb erekat, yasser rabbo, nabil rdeinah etc etc. Without exception, all Arabs appear to be condemned to the same ‘leaders’ for life, all the better to stick to the same failed policies.

“Actually, Palestinian emigration from the Palestinian terrortories exceeds Jewish emigration from Israel.”

—

Well, if the Palestinian territories received 20 billion dollars a year from the U.S. instead of Zionist violence and economic starvation, then this would be worth noting. Here you have Israel with the economic and military support of the most powerful nation on earth and one out of two young people is considering emigration. That would suggest to me that Israel is doomed. When you lose the support of future generations, you might as well cash it in. No amount of bombing in Gaza can reverse that.